Ulcers, Dynamite and misinformation. WWYD?

[costco_muffins]

Now, before I get started, please know that a simple "bless your heart" may not suffice in this situation.

Fellow horse owner, M, is a Parelli-ite and believes heart and soul in Dynamite products for her horses. With this I have no problem. I suspected her mare has ulcers due to some behavioral difficulties and trouble keeping weight on. We are dealing with a similar issue with my gelding, so the issue was forefront in my mind and was something that she and I had discussed previously.

I researched ulcer preventatives and decided to try SmartGut on my gelding first to see if it made a difference in his symptoms. M talked to her chiropractor/woo-woo healer who convinced her that ulcer preventatives are "total acid blockers" and that they bring on a whole host of other problems. Instead, healer told M that she needed to start the mare on Dynamite Miracle Clay. This wouldn't really bother me, aside from the fact that M is now insinuating to me that I am ruining my horse's health by giving him a ulcer preventative.

I would like some feedback on how to respond in a scientific, rational, logical way to M. I enjoy a philosophical discussion about feeding and caring for horses; in fact, M and I have had many discussions like this before about various aspects of horse care. I simply want to be well informed and accurate.

Is the Dynamite Clay product an ulcer treatment? If so, why does it work? I can only find it on their website as a treatment for skin irritations in humans.

What does an ulcer preventative do in terms of "acid blocking"?

I chose SmartGut because of the addition of some homeopathic ingredients to its base formula as well as its affordability. Is this a good choice?

In the post following this one I will copy the research that she gave to me (via email attachment). Can anyone help me decipher what the research is saying and help me discuss effectively its main points?

Thanks!

[costco_muffins]

Got Ulcers? Get Miracle Clay! ©Judy Sinner 2004 (with 2005 updates)

Seeing any of these symptoms of equine ulcers?

* Colics, mild to severe, especially at feeding time; aggressive behavior at feeding time.
* Behavior ranging from inattentive, distracted demeanor, to outright belligerent actions like bucking or running off, or just refusal to perform to potential……getting worse as a training session progresses.
* Unthriftiness, reluctance to eat, cribbing, weaving, pacing, teethgrinding, yawning.



The Horse, April 2003, published results of a University of Florida study. Researchers there discovered that any exercise above a walk could force gastric acid juices up into sensitive (non glandular tissue) areas of the stomach, which may be one reason why 80% or more of performance horses have ulcers. Horses have some portions of the stomach that are more like regular, hairless skin, instead of being comprised totally of glandular mucosa like human stomachs. In nature, they would be eating more or less constantly, would eat no grain, and would not exert themselves even at a trot for more than a few minutes at a time unless under extreme duress. When we ride or work horses at faster gaits and for longer than they would play by themselves, the tightened muscles of the abdominal wall work to force the stomach contents and acids upwards, splashing the acid on the squamous cell portion of the stomach. The effects were more pronounced on horses that had been fasted for 18 hours before exercise, but still occurred in horses fed 2 hours before exercise. Three TB's had cannulated stomachs, and were worked on a treadmill. With a Mylar balloon in place, the researchers discovered the phenomenon. They also measured the pH of the stomach, and found that at a walk the pH was 5 - 6. At the trot and canter, the pH plummetted to a 1! Interestingly, human athletes often complain of acid reflux during exercise, probably for the same reasons of abdominal wall tightening.

Thomas R. Lenz, D.V.M., M.S., writing in Quarter Horse Journal, Feb 1995, corroborates this information. "The lining of the human stomach consists entirely of a glandular tissue that secretes acid, digestive enzymes, hormones and mucus that protects it from damage from the acid. In contrast, only about 40% of the horses' stomach is lined by glandular tissue. The remaining 60% is lined by non-glandular tissue that is structurally similar to hairless skin. In horses, ulcers occur primarily in the non-glandular portion of the stomach, which is extremely sensitive to elevated gastric acid levels." The author goes on to say that two year old TB's just starting training had no or minimal gastric ulcers. After 2 or three months of intense training, 90% had ulcers! By contrast, only 37% of horses used for light riding, lessons, etc. had ulcers. Severe illness and the use of nsaids like Bute are also well-known causes of gastric ulcers in foals and horses. (Note that even IV Bute can ulcerate, through the mechanism of interrupting collagen and mucus membrane cell formation). The most likely cause of non-glandular ulcers is the increase in gastric acid production upon the introduction of more grain into the ration. Dr. Lenz also cites a 1988 study which concluded that stomach acidity was 60 times greater in grain fed horses, than in those fed only hay.

As reported in Equus,Dec 2005, even "average" horses may develop ulcers after being shipped to an unfamiliar environment and stabled and trained there. Ulcers are not just found in the high performance athletes that are hauled and competed more heavily; even the occasional weekend show or trail ride can cause problems. Twenty horses were used in a recent study done at Iowa State University. They were trained and used for recreational riding and showed no signs of ulcers prior to the study. Ten were hauled 4 hours to an unfamiliar barn, where they were stabled, ridden and longed for 3 days, then shipped home. The other ten horses remained at home, where they were longed and ridden, serving as controls. Seven of the transported horses (70%) developed ulcers, compared to only 2 (20%) who were ridden and longed at home. The ulcers in the traveling group were also more severe. This study was reported in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assn. (McClure, SR, Caruthers, DS, Gross, SJ, Murray, MJ, Gastric Ulcer Development in horses in a simulated show or training environment).

Dynamite Solution? Enter Miraculous Miracle Clay!

The practice of eating clays for digestive upsets is as old as the recorded history of mankind, and as new as the practice of taking Kaopectate, which contains kaolin clay!. Animals will instinctively search out clay deposits in the wild, to soothe digestion and to act as a natural acid buffer and detoxifier. A PhD student at the University of California at Davis, James Gilardi (now the director of the World Parrot Trust) extensively studied Amazon parrots and found that they ate the clay cliffs in the region to detox themselves from the cyanide in the seeds that they often ate. The very small clay particles have a negative charge and most of the toxic plant chemicals have a positive charge, a perfect match! He found that the soils did a great job of binding to toxic alkaloids, which then pass through the digestive system and are never absorbed into the blood of the birds. He also found evidence that the clay coats the inside of the digestive system and protects it from being "tanned" by the tannins and other toxic plant chemicals. (www.duke.edu).

Here's How to Use Dynamite Miracle Clay:

1 ounce of Miracle Clay (dry measure, before adding water) made into a thin paste and syringed into the horse is a great idea that has worked wonders on performance horses. Give after walking the horse out, and preferably at least an hour before feeding. The more intense or the more lengthy the exercise, the more important this practice becomes. You might also want to give a dose before the exercise especially for racing, eventing and really hard work, and during an endurance ride. Give it before hauling, too! The tightened ab muscles and trailer motion can have the same effects as exercise. Everyone I know who has used the Miracle Clay in this way has found it more effective and way cheaper than the ulcer drugs, which are usually total acid blockers. Stomach acid is essential to digest food properly, and is also the body's first line of defense against parasites, and food or water borne bacteria. Free choice grass hay is another great way to prevent ulcers, if horses are nibbling all the time the stomach is more protected. The exception might be a race horse, where you would want to withold hay the morning of the race. Split grain meals into smaller portions, as the stomach becomes more acidic with a grain meal, and feed the grain after some hay has been eaten. Less acid is secreted to digest hay, and the hay in the stomach will "buffer" the effects of the grain feeding. . You might even want to add a teaspoon of wet, activated Clay to the grain, and of course it is a component of our Dynamite Pelleted Grain Ration. Besides helping with ulcer prevention, clay helps horses to cope with the toxic residues of chemical dewormers, preservatives in the feed, and other toxins in the diet and environment.

Clay works! Silver Senior Director Tracie Audette of Palmer, AK notes:

"I had an interesting conversation with a new customer last week regarding the daily use of Miracle Clay, and wondering if it was going to be worth the time and trouble to see that her horse got it everyday. She was dealing with a cinchy, cranky, yawning, thin mare, who could become inattentive and then unpredictable during workouts. We started her on Clay and DynaPro and took her off all grain products. Over night the mare was much more comfortable and by the end of the week the change in her was so remarkable, she told me she was willing to go to the barn where she boards to do it herself everyday, if necessary. A small price to pay (in money and time) as compared to several years of really not enjoying her horse time."

Director Gary Dearth of Corrales, NM notes:

"I have used Dynamite products in our training operation, Pine Ridge Arabians, for nearly 25 years. The products have helped us win over 200 National Championships and Top Ten Awards, so we totally trust the Dynamite teachings. Clay has been invaluable to us, in getting horses "right" who were having behavior and training problems due to ulcers. We give it to every horse during shows, especially if we see yawning or reluctance to eat, and it works great."

[costco_muffins]

Stomach Ulcers, Thomas R. Lenz, D.V.M., M.S. in Quarter Horse Journal, Feb 1995

The aha for me in this article was the statement, "The lining of the human stomach consists entirely of a glandular tissue that secretes acid, digestive enzymes, hormones and mucus that protects it from damage from the acid. In contrast, only about 40% of the horses' stomach is lined by glandular tissue. The remaining 60% is lined by non-glandular tissue that is structurally similar to hairless skin. In horses, ulcers occur primarily in the non-glandular portion of the stomach, which is extremely sensitive to elevated gastric acid levels." The author goes on to say that two year old TB's just starting training had no or minimal gastric ulcers. After 2 or three months of intense training, 90% had ulcers! By contrast, only 37% of horses used for light riding, lessons, etc. had ulcers. Severe illness and the use of nsaids like Bute are also well-known causes of gastric ulcers in foals and horses. The most likely cause of non-glandular ulcers is the increase in gastric acid production upon the introduction of more grain into the ration. A 1988 study concluded that stomach acidity was 60 times greater in grain fed horses, than in those fed only hay. Symptoms range from mild discomfort to severe colic. Decreased appetite, some weight loss, teeth grinding are the milder symptoms. The severe colics usually occur at feeding time. Some human ulcer drugs have been used (like Tagamet) but the cost can be upwards of $600 for even a 2 week period of treatment. Some drugs that are effective in treating ulcers in the glandular part of the stomach can actually make the non-glandular ulcers worse, fyi. Prevention is better than cure, says the author. Free choice hay is the best cure/prevention, or unrestricted grazing time.

My feeling is, if the horse is under stress and on grain like at the track or events, a syringe full of Miracle Clay activated with water is awesome support. My friends and reps the Dearth's in NM have had amazing results on National Champion English horse C Scorch over the years, his ulcer problem was gone in a couple of weeks of clay. Of course, the clay is a key ingredient in our Pelleted Grain Ration, to my mind the reason that this feed sets so well with performance horses. If I ever have to use even a dose or two of Bute, it is followed an hour later by a blast of Clay. Cheap, effective and won't hurt a thing...............better than spending mass $ on endoscopy and ulcer meds which are total acid blockers, and you know that brings on its own set of problems. (Order a case of Clay and be the first to have the office confirm with me, and you get a free Clay...........)DynaPro is also a must to me, with any horse being used regularly and/or getting grain, to assist with digestion and keep the pH of the gut at favorable levels.
Another caution, since so many performance horses have ulcers, be aware that the neuro transmitter drugs like Ivermectin and Moxidectin can get directly into the bloodstream thru the ulcerated tissue and effect nerve damage, either in that local area or elsewhere in the system, be very careful in your use of these wormers on horses who are actively competing unless you know they are ulcer-free. Regan and I know personally of two horses who have died after the wormer entered lesions in their mouths/throats and paralyzed those areas. One mare lasted only hours, the other starved to death, literally, as she could not swallow food or water.

[buck22]

oy, I got dizzy just looking at the amount of material you have published here, lol! so I have no comment on that, but wanted to pop in and say that I did have good results using DMC on my horses. One of my two had ulcery symptoms, after using the product the ulcery symptoms slowly subsided and really haven't returned. I don't use any other D products, but I did like the MC. It made my horses' manure especially lovely too.

I also used Ulcerguard in an emergency once, that worked very well, within 48 hours.

Its all well and good to want to experiment and learn and do the best you can for your horse, but I just hate when people (like the M you describe) throw their opinions and new found knowledge around. If it were me, I'd politely say that I've chosen what I've chosen because I feel best about it for my own needs, and that I hope her choice gives the results she's after and perhaps I can learn from her in the future.

[costco_muffins]

I found a website that I could link to with the research. In post #2. Hopefully that will make it easier to read.

[AnotherRound]

I echo what buck22 said, except for the "...and perhaps I can learn from her in the future" part, because I would be afraid that would be inviting her to proselytize, which is definitely not allowed around me, but otherwise, what Buck22 said.

[dbadaro]

i know the owner of that farm you posted.

my horse developed ulcers after being shipped from chicago to florida (thanks to my previous barn owners who "forgot" to give him his ulcergard before the shipper showed up)

anyways, i have been using the clay for about 1.5 months now and have seen a difference in my horse. as i understand it, the calcium helps with the digestion of the food. it's like feeding alfalfa hay. another comparison is the birds that live in the amazon: they eat clay by the river banks to keep the toxins of the seeds they eat from poisoning them. i was skeptic about the dmc, but i decided to try it and so far have seen good results. sorry i don't have a technical answer for you, but it just works.

[JB]

Is the Dynamite Clay product an ulcer treatment? If so, why does it work? I can only find it on their website as a treatment for skin irritations in humans.
Can it be, has it been used as an ulcer treatment in horses? Yes.

Is it labeled as such? No way. In fact, NO D distributor should be telling you otherwise, nor should they be telling you to use it as such. They can say "I've used it for ulcers, with good luck, so that's an option for you."

It's labeled as a topical, that's it. I've drunk it, I've fed it to cats and dogs and horses, and have had very good results with it. As a D distributor myself, I'd never tell someone it IS an ulcer remedy. I tell them I've used it with success (because I have, OTTB mare).

What does an ulcer preventative do in terms of "acid blocking"?
Ranitidine (ie Zantac) is an H2 receptor antagonist, which acts to *decrease* stomach acid production.

Omeprazole (ie Ulcerguard) also acts to suppress (totally? more than ranitidine?) the hydrochloric acid in the stomach. I'm not sure on the totality of it, but single doses of it work for 24 hours, as opposed to only 8 hours, tops, for ranitidine.

It's easy to do something like a google search on "how does ranitidine work" or "how does omeprazole work" to get your science :)

I chose SmartGut because of the addition of some homeopathic ingredients to its base formula as well as its affordability. Is this a good choice?
I've heard good things about it, though more in a maintenance mode

I happen to like the MC a lot - I always have it, use it for lots of things, and yes, I DO use it for periods if I suspect a funky tummy (or, in the case of dogs/cats, when there is an obviously upset stomach). Bentonite Clay has long been known to have certain absorbing and coating properties which help with things like this, as well as binding with certain "toxins".

Because you are dealing with someone who is of a cult-like mindset, it may well be pointless at best, frustrating at worst, to try to have a scientific discussion of this nature.

I love Dynamite products, I like Judy Sinner a lot. But there are some things I have a real problem with, such as this comment:

"Judy's Note: Of course my inquiring little mind gallops straight to the application of this info for horses and the increasing use of ulcer meds on them. While this study does not apply to equines as such, it does not seem a reach to think the same principle might apply."

She's right, it's not an equine study, but she's *wrong* in saying it's not such a reach to think the same issues apply. She applies that logic with the gall bladder and oils, and it doesn't fly.

She's right that you don't want to 100% suppress all stomach acid production long-term It's necessary for the first stage of digestion. In other words, you wouldn't want to do a full tube of Ulcer/Gastroguard every day for infinity.

But for some stage, getting ulcers cleared up means not only removing the cause (stress, illness, medication such as bute, etc), but allowing the conditions for the ulcers to heal (ie stop splashing acid on the wounds).

FWIW ;)

[Foxtrot's]

We live on blue clay with thin soil on top. My horses seek out a clay seam and love licking it - they must get something out of it.

[Gry2Yng]

She's right, it's not an equine study, but she's *wrong* in saying it's not such a reach to think the same issues apply. She applies that logic with the gall bladder and oils, and it doesn't fly.



You have hit on one of my biggest pet peeves. A dog is not a horse is not a human is not a cow. Some drugs cross species rather well, some to disastrous effects. I HATE the assumption that because it is x with a human it is probably x with a horse.

ETA: And let's talk about cats vs dogs. Can't I give them both the same drugs since they both live in houses and barns and have four legs and whiskers?

[rcloisonne]

I would like some feedback on how to respond in a scientific, rational, logical way to M.
Believe me, these types have zero interest in science and logic. Don't waste your breath. ;)


What does an ulcer preventative do in terms of "acid blocking"?
The supplement you're using (SmartGut) doesn't contain anything that blocks the stomach's ability to produce acid. Omeprazole, ranitidine, and cimetidine do though the latter two have not shown to be very effective, at least for treating exisiting ulcers, in equines.


I chose SmartGut because of the addition of some homeopathic ingredients to its base formula as well as its affordability. Is this a good choice?
Possibly better than most but there are no real studies that can confirm that. And exactly which homeopathics are in it? I don't see a single thing. :confused:

http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=6320&cmPreserveSource=true&cmPreserveCategory=true#fulldescription

[murphyluv]

SmartGut has herbals, not homeopathics. Not the same thing.
There is a vast array of products out there, and I really don't think there is a single product out there that will work on Every Single Horse. Gastrogard and such have their place, and as JB said you don't want a horse on it for all of eternity, but sometimes you have to stop the pain cycle and allow them to heal, then maintain with a product. Or sometimes the ulcers are not so severe that they can't just be treated with SmartGut, Miracle Clay, etc.

Here's how Gastrogard works:
http://gastrogard.us.merial.com/gastrogard.asp#T3
Stomach Soother:
http://www.stomachsoother.com/equine-ulcers.asp

[deltawave]

It's great to arm yourself with solid information, but in all honesty, nothing you can think, do, or say is going to sway your friend. Believe me, I have typed until I was blue in the fingertips here on COTH, and I can talk and talk and talk to patients (and I am pretty persuasive, armed to the teeth with data, not to mention able to spell things out pretty clearly) but if someone has a firmly entrenched mindset that "alternative therapy" is their cup of tea, it is EXTREMELY difficult to make any sort of impact from a logical, scientific viewpoint. EXTREMELY as in I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been able to make a hard-core "believer" see my side of the story in a meaningful way.

The whole "alternative medicine" worldview is much more of a belief system (similar to a religion) than it is a carefully reasoned means of dealing with health and disease. Nothing wrong with that as it stands, but IMO trying to "convert" someone using facts and logic is sort of like trying to make a fundamentalist creationist accept the fossil record as fact. :) What makes them tick just does not ALLOW them to embrace the alternate viewpoint.

If you're fond of the lady, I'd say something along the lines of "Look, I know you have your way of looking at things, and I certainly respect your level of commitment to your horse and his health. But my way of looking at things is different, and I'm a lot more comfortable going with a more traditional route of treating his health problems. Can you accept that?"

[Androcles]

SmartGut has herbals, not homeopathics. Not the same thing.


Not only is that true, but you can't just add in 'homeopathics' with other ingredients. If they are taken internally they should be dissolved in the mouth under the tongue, not swallowed. In the case of horses the best you can do is squirt a solution into their mouths.

[Androcles]

anyways, i have been using the clay for about 1.5 months now and have seen a difference in my horse. as i understand it, the calcium helps with the digestion of the food.

I would think the calcium was working as a buffer for the stomach acid.

[Joker2001]

This is the owner of MoonStarFarms website. I do not know how the OP was able to post that article as it is not on my website nor has it ever been. Those articles are not to be resposted on any open sites. The article was in my site builder to share with interested parties but again has NEVER been linked to an open page. I am also NOT the person that helped this OP's friend with her horse as her post indicates.

I have no problem with people having their own beliefs but to smear my name when I am not the person that has had anything to do with this situation is not acceptable.

[deltawave]

Never fear, anything written by Judy Sinner gets the old hairy eyeball from me--she's like the Billy Mays of horse supplements: all drama, no substance.

[equineartworks]

This is the owner of MoonStarFarms website. I do not know how the OP was able to post that article as it is not on my website nor has it ever been. Those articles are not to be resposted on any open sites. The article was in my site builder to share with interested parties but again has NEVER been linked to an open page. I am also NOT the person that helped this OP's friend with her horse as her post indicates.

I have no problem with people having their own beliefs but to smear my name when I am not the person that has had anything to do with this situation is not acceptable.

It shows up first in the search engines when searching for the info.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but files on your server show up in searches regardless of inclusion on an actual site. If you want them to remain out of view it is best to place them in a password protected folder and exclude them from the search engines. :)

[Joker2001]

Never fear, anything written by Judy Sinner gets the old hairy eyeball from me--she's like the Billy Mays of horse supplements: all drama, no substance.

The problem I have is the OP has insinuated that I was the person involved. Not only that but because she somehow posted that article that is not even linked to my website she has put me in jeopardy because again those articles are not to be posted on an open forum. I am very careful about never posting articles and only sharing them with interested parties. Anyone that knows me from any boards knows this. I always say I am not allowed to repost any articles but am happy to pm them to those interested.

[Joker2001]

It shows up first in the search engines when searching for the info.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but files on your server show up in searches regardless of inclusion on an actual site. If you want them to remain out of view it is best to place them in a password protected folder and exclude them from the search engines. :)

No I wasn't aware of that. Thank you. I guess I just assumed the only thing that came up would be pages I have linked to the site. I have deleted the articles so they shouldn't show up at all anymore. Thank you.

[JB]

Joker, I think you are the only one who thinks the OP insinuated you were involved in this situation :) As Deltawave said, it doesn't matter if you have something as a separate page, not linked to a website - a search engine can still see it. It is indeed way up at the top of a search on this information, so it easy pickings to post when someone goes out and does research :)

I'm a Dynamite distributor myself. I NEVER copy anything from the D website to put onto any web page, linked to a site or not. I make a Word copy and send that to anyone I feel is interested enough. That keeps the "private" information on the D site out of the prying search engine eyes ;)

[Joker2001]

Joker, I think you are the only one who thinks the OP insinuated you were involved in this situation :) As Deltawave said, it doesn't matter if you have something as a separate page, not linked to a website - a search engine can still see it. It is indeed way up at the top of a search on this information, so it easy pickings to post when someone goes out and does research :)

I'm a Dynamite distributor myself. I NEVER copy anything from the D website to put onto any web page, linked to a site or not. I make a Word copy and send that to anyone I feel is interested enough. That keeps the "private" information on the D site out of the prying search engine eyes ;)

JB - Thank you. Actually the reason this was brought to my attention was because another person thought the OP was talking about me. I had copied those on there a long time ago. I keep all articles in my outlook and fwd them on to people from there. The articles were done on the site when I was originally building it but again never linked them. I wasn't aware they pulled up in the search engines if not linked. It shouldn't be there anymore. Thanks :)

[deltawave]

Why would it have to be kept "private" if the information/article in question is styled as a scholarly discourse on a topic (in this case ulcers)? :confused:

[JB]

delta, there are certain articles that Dynamite produces that they do not want made public, and certain ones written wtih the understanding they can be "published" elsewhere.

[deltawave]

there are certain articles that Dynamite produces that they do not want made public

Don't you find that a little strange, though? :confused: If we use as an example the document that was linked on this thread, I would think that this would be the type of thing that would have "susceptible" customers (for lack of a better word) beating down the door. Not saying I don't think a lot of it is pure BS, but it seems to me to be just the thing to put out as a promotional "piece" to tout a product.

I'm not directly dissing this or that Dynamite product, but I will readily say I'm a little queasy at the whole multi-level marketing shtick and the thought of there being "do not disclose to the buyer" documents such as these just makes me go . . . WTF?

[Joker2001]

It isn't about non disclosure. All my clients and potential clients get all the information they ask for. I send heaps of articles and explain in detail how each product works.

It is more for this reason alone...it starts a lot of controversy when people insinuate reps (and I am not saying there isn't those that do) make these claims that certain products are a "cure" then rip the products and Dynamite name apart because they think its a bunch of crap.

[JB]

Don't you find that a little strange, though? :confused:
No, I don't - see Joker's post :) Don't get me wrong - there is D philosophy I don't agree with, such as the whole oil thing for one.

I'm not directly dissing this or that Dynamite product, but I will readily say I'm a little queasy at the whole multi-level marketing shtick and the thought of there being "do not disclose to the buyer" documents such as these just makes me go . . . WTF?
It's got nothing to do with MLM. You can find any number of sellers of these types of products, with these types of beliefs, that are simple retail stores. MLM is not necessarily a bad thing. Pyramid schemes are ;)

And, as Joker said, it's not about keeping the buyer in the dark. Like her, anyone who wants more information, or who wants to buy products, can have any number of articles that are not directly publically available. I don't give it out to tire kickers though ;)

[costco_muffins]

Woah guys.

Joker, I never meant to insinuate that you were the person or farm involved. I did a simple google search for the title of the study that I was given and linked to the page that came up with a similar study. I never looked into your farm or anything like that.

Assuming it was a scholarly article, I would see no problem linking to it as I found it through a google search. I had initially copied and pasted the whole article, but due to some complaints, searched to find a link that would access the same article.

I am good friends with M, which is why it is hard for me to be in this situation. I do not feed my horse Dynamite products, and have not been interested in doing so based solely on some personal reasons. These reasons may or may not be based in science, but they are my reasons.

I appreciate everyone's responses and advice about ulcer preventatives and ulcer treatments. I know that in the horse world there are many opinions, and I wanted to educate myself more in some alternatives so that I can have a meaningful conversation about ulcers and how to fix them with a person who often bases her decisions in what I feel is "fuzzy logic".

I will recopy the article in the second post for all who wished to read it.

[pintopiaffe]

FWIW, and *purely* anecdotal experience ;)

I have had really wonderful results using Miracle Clay for a very ulcery mare, and I use/d it prophylactially with probiotics and mild electrolytes for 'big stress' events.

BioSponge is an extremely similar product, with the kind of research Deltawave likes. :p Look up BioSponge, and 98% of the info can be carried over. The difference, *I believe* (and could be wrong) is simply in where/how the clay is 'mined' or gathered, or harvested, or whatever it is you DO with clay. ;)

The BioSponge is also VERY bitter, while the Miracle Clay has little to no actual taste. I"ve used both--the horses prefer the MC. And when you've got a scoury foal, 'no' taste is FAR better than bitter.

[Heart's Journey]

I have found Miracle clay to be useful for a variety of things (I am not a Dynamite distributor) ant bites, bees stings, etc I also give it to my horse before hauling as a preventative.

Few years ago I had a new TW gelding that I had trained and then started taking camping. After a few campouts, I noticed at one place, he started chewing wood. A fellow camper who is a Dynamite distributor told me about MC and gave him some that weekend. She felt that he was starting to or had gotten ulcers from the traveling.

I bought a container from her and gave it to him 2x a day for 30 days. He stopped chewing wood and never did it again. I continued to give him a dose of MC anytime I hauled him. The theory is it would block the stomach acids and keep it from churning around in his gut.

Does it work? It seems to and it doesn't have any harmful effects. One container lasts about 2 years, so it's very inexpensive to use.

[Coreene]

So re the OP's comment about the person telling her she was doing things wrong, we have someone like that just down the barn aisle. Best thing that works with her is "I have heard you each time you've thought it okay to make coments about my horse's care, but this is the last time I'm going to be polite about it. Butt out. Seriously."