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TSHEventing
Dec. 10, 2009, 09:37 AM
Hey All -

I am looking for your breeding experiences with Formula One.

I have heard the temperament of the foals is amazing. Does anyone have any different thoughts?

What did he improve on your mare? (if anything?)

Was there anything you hoped he improve and he didn't?

What has the movement been like in the foals?

Has anyone backed their babies yet?


Thanks!

RAyers
Dec. 10, 2009, 10:33 AM
The weanling next to Shiv is a F1 offspring. Love her!!!! The mare did not need improvement (I level eventer). Georgia (the foal) got the best of both (wonderful long legs, close coupled and athletic, very personable) and I told her owner to not be surprised if Georgia turned up missing one day only to be found in my pasture at home.

Reed

deltawave
Dec. 10, 2009, 10:44 AM
I think he's yummy, but don't have a mare right now that has earned her place in the gene pool, so no foals in my future. (except the two broodmares I am foaling out for other people, I get to play with babies but don't have to keep them!) ;)

clivers
Dec. 10, 2009, 11:50 AM
FWIW we don't have a foal yet but we have a Formula One foal on the way in May 2010. We selected this stallion over others because of his reputation for passing on a very workable temperament and that was the weakest side of our mare.

53
Dec. 10, 2009, 12:56 PM
I have an 18 month old Formula One baby.
Pictures are on my website, as well as photos of the dam.
He is a gem to work with, his improvement to the dam was suspension in the trot, Tessa's canter was to die for, but her trot lacked suspension, which Louie shows as a benefit of Formula One's input.
What's more, the Emerson's are amazing to work with and were tremendously supportive to me as a first time breeder.

ThirdCharm
Dec. 10, 2009, 01:25 PM
I have heard they can be growthy and to not overdo the rich feed, but I would do that with any baby, particularly one I expected to be big. Which I've heard his babies are.

I have my 15.3h TB mare who went Intermediate in foal to F1 for '10 and am very excited. A little more size and a bit bouncier trot (she's gotten in the 20s in dressage but the trot could be better) and I'll be a happy camper.

Jennifer

PhoenixFarm
Dec. 10, 2009, 01:37 PM
We have a two, coming three-year-old filly by him, out of a very well-bred Irish TB mare (grandaughter of Sadler's Wells).

She is an absolute show stopper. Every person who comes to the farm says "Who is THAT?"

Pics of her from this year can be found here. (http://www.phoenixsporthorses.com/page9/page9.html) (Scroll down to Phoenix Amani). The jump shot is her first time over a fence, and sh jumped it like she'd done it a thousand times.

She will be a bigger, more substantial filly that her dam, but I don't expect her to be massive. Her movement has a bit more ping than her dam's, though no one ever complained about her movement. She's a bit braver and levelheaded than Mom, but her Mom was one of the sweetest, kindest mares I've ever known.

We didn't back her this year, but we did teach her to longe, and she got ponied all over the farm, and put through the chute. She was easy, and had an excellent work ethic.

Mr. PF is giddy over this filly!

TSHEventing
Dec. 12, 2009, 07:58 AM
Thanks Guys!

Coppers mom
Dec. 12, 2009, 10:21 AM
Have you guys sent pictures of your babies in to Denny and May? I know they're really good about keeping track and keeping up the marketing (seriously, I think they've done a great job of keeping up with his foals, and those of the other stallions), but I noticed Annie was the only one who really had a photo of her baby when it got older. It really helps a breeder out to keep them updated, especially when the foals grow up to be really nice, win something, etc.


Just a PSA from someone who's spent the last two weeks begging for pictures.... haha

Maryanne Nicpon
Dec. 13, 2009, 04:07 AM
I am expecting a Formula One foal out of a full sister to Courageous Comet in May. I can't wait to see this foal ! I will definitely announce his/her arrival here.

Toadie's mom
Dec. 13, 2009, 07:50 PM
I am expecting a Formula One foal out of a full sister to Courageous Comet in May. I can't wait to see this foal ! I will definitely announce his/her arrival here.

How exciting! Can't wait to see this one! Does the mare look like her brother?

Dr. Doolittle
Dec. 13, 2009, 08:46 PM
I am expecting a Formula One foal out of a full sister to Courageous Comet in May. I can't wait to see this foal ! I will definitely announce his/her arrival here.

WOW, if this isn't the best genetic pairing on earth if one wants to custom make the ultimate "eventing superstar", I don't know what is!! :D (Can't WAIT to hear about the product of this combination! I'm sure the resulting foal will be fabulous...;))

I am in LOVE with Courageous Comet, and if only Formula One were NOT a grey! :sigh: He would be on my top ten list for my mare if he were any other color...

TSHEventing
Dec. 14, 2009, 08:32 PM
That's funny! I didn't pick him because he is grey, but my mare is grey and I an very excited to have a good shot at getting a grey!

Anyway, I think you guys (and other research I have done) sealed the deal for me. I will be breeding my mare this year for a 2011 baby!

My mare is a granddaughter of Caro on top and Babamist on bottom and her dam line goes back to Water Serpent... Hoping for a serious eventer... That will be grey!

Merle
Dec. 14, 2009, 08:50 PM
I am in LOVE with Courageous Comet, and if only Formula One were NOT a grey! :sigh: He would be on my top ten list for my mare if he were any other color...

I too am not at ALL a fan of greys (I can't imagine cleaning them!) but I will admit that he is working his way up my list. And my list is for my pinto mare by Art Deco so it's a double whammy - could end up grey AND pinto! :D

ohhthatgirl
Dec. 14, 2009, 08:55 PM
I am expecting a Formula One foal out of a full sister to Courageous Comet in May. I can't wait to see this foal ! I will definitely announce his/her arrival here.

Oh my god. My jaw just dropped. Please keep us updated! In fact, I want a blog. haha

Dr. Doolittle
Dec. 14, 2009, 10:22 PM
That's funny! I didn't pick him because he is grey, but my mare is grey and I an very excited to have a good shot at getting a grey!

Anyway, I think you guys (and other research I have done) sealed the deal for me. I will be breeding my mare this year for a 2011 baby!

My mare is a granddaughter of Caro on top and Babamist on bottom and her dam line goes back to Water Serpent... Hoping for a serious eventer... That will be grey!

TSHEventing, if you breed a grey to a grey, you are guaranteed to get a grey--simple genetic formula! (Same for chestnut to chestnut :))

Sounds like your grey baby will have fabulous bloodlines; good luck with what will surely be a fabulous prospect (and enjoy cleaning him/her up for the HTs ;))

AppJumpr08
Dec. 14, 2009, 10:27 PM
TSHEventing, if you breed a grey to a grey, you are guaranteed to get a grey--simple genetic formula! (Same for chestnut to chestnut :))

Sounds like your grey baby will have fabulous bloodlines; good luck with what will surely be a fabulous prospect (and enjoy cleaning him/her up for the HTs ;))

Not if both parents are heterozygous for grey... if both are Gg, then it is possible to get a non grey ;)

Should be a fancy fancy baby!

Dr. Doolittle
Dec. 14, 2009, 10:28 PM
I too am not at ALL a fan of greys (I can't imagine cleaning them!) but I will admit that he is working his way up my list. And my list is for my pinto mare by Art Deco so it's a double whammy - could end up grey AND pinto! :D

My mare is also by Art Deco! (Though she is a chestnut, with some chrome. Rabicano roaning, but this is more evident in the winter...) I like chrome, but just don't want quite THAT much chrome in her foal! :p:

Dr. Doolittle
Dec. 14, 2009, 10:41 PM
Not if both parents are heterozygous for grey... if both are Gg, then it is possible to get a non grey ;)

Should be a fancy fancy baby!

It's possible to get a non grey from two grey parents? I always thought that being heterozygous (for a color gene) meant that breeding to that horse (for example, a bay or black, who was heterozygous for black points) was NOT guaranteed to result in a foal with black points, but gave you only a 50/50ish chance of getting a bay/black...Unless the sire was HOMOzygous for black points--in which case you could ONLY get a foal with black points, even if you bred him to a chestnut. Same for pintos--50/50 or less chance of getting a pinto when breeding a solid colored mare to one, *unless* it was homozygous for the pinto gene...) Isn't grey recessive, like chestnut? (Meaning breeding two together of that color would guarantee that the resulting foal was the same color?...) This is confusing. Perhaps I need to go and check this out in the breeding forum!

ddashaq
Dec. 14, 2009, 10:57 PM
There is a coming three year old Formula One filly at my barn. She has an awesome temperament, is a nice mover, and will be started this spring. I am very excited to see how she turns out!

AppJumpr08
Dec. 14, 2009, 11:11 PM
Grey is dominant.
So a horse that was Gg would be grey, but a gg would be black/bay/whatever. Homozygous for grey would be GG. Hetero would be Gg, and still grey.

Chestnut is fully recessive, so a chestnut horse is ee. So you breed ee to ee, and you'll always get ee.

I'm not sure if that helps or not... it's been a long time since my color genetics paper!!! :lol:

AppJumpr08
Dec. 14, 2009, 11:13 PM
UC Davis Color Genetics (http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorhorse.php) can probably explain it better than I can :)

JER
Dec. 14, 2009, 11:38 PM
When I bred by homozygous brown (EE) mare to a grey stallion, I put some time into convincing myself I wasn't going to get a grey. The stallion had many non-grey offspring and was clearly N/G with fewer than 50% greys.

Because my mare is a dark filly factory, I was expecting another dark filly with no white. And I got what I wanted...

...until the white hairs showed up at age 2 1/2. No hint of grey up to that point.

Dr. Doolittle
Dec. 15, 2009, 07:37 AM
Grey is dominant.
So a horse that was Gg would be grey, but a gg would be black/bay/whatever. Homozygous for grey would be GG. Hetero would be Gg, and still grey.

Chestnut is fully recessive, so a chestnut horse is ee. So you breed ee to ee, and you'll always get ee.

I'm not sure if that helps or not... it's been a long time since my color genetics paper!!! :lol:

Thanks for the clarification (and the link :)); very informative!

So, according to the link, if a horse is homozygous for grey (has two grey parents), they will ALWAYS produce grey offspring? Even if crossed with a homozygous (for black points) horse?

How did JER's foal wind up grey if the mare was homozygous for brown, and the sire was Gg? Does "homozygous for black points" *only* mean that the baby can NOT be chestnut? This is still a bit confusing, but then again--I had to get up extra early this morning, and my coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet!

AppJumpr08
Dec. 15, 2009, 08:25 AM
Thanks for the clarification (and the link :)); very informative!


You're welcome :)



So, according to the link, if a horse is homozygous for grey (has two grey parents), they will ALWAYS produce grey offspring? Even if crossed with a homozygous (for black points) horse?

How did JER's foal wind up grey if the mare was homozygous for brown, and the sire was Gg? Does "homozygous for black points" *only* mean that the baby can NOT be chestnut? This is still a bit confusing, but then again--I had to get up extra early this morning, and my coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet!

A grey with two grey parents could still be heterozygous *if* both parents were heterozygous (so the options for the offspring are G/G, G/N, or N/N).
And yes, you're right that homozygous for black points only controls if a horse is chestnut or not. The Agouti gene controls black distribution - so recessive in that department gets you a black horse. Dominant Agouti genes restrict the black to the points.
Since grey is dominant, it *always* trumps all other colors in the end. I've always thought of grey as being a "cover up" of other colors. The bay/black/chestnut/whatever is the base, and the grey is expressed over the top. Like the cream gene acting OVER chestnut to produce a palomino.

Does that help?

Dr. Doolittle
Dec. 15, 2009, 10:07 AM
You're welcome :)



A grey with two grey parents could still be heterozygous *if* both parents were heterozygous (so the options for the offspring are G/G, G/N, or N/N).
And yes, you're right that homozygous for black points only controls if a horse is chestnut or not. The Agouti gene controls black distribution - so recessive in that department gets you a black horse. Dominant Agouti genes restrict the black to the points.
Since grey is dominant, it *always* trumps all other colors in the end. I've always thought of grey as being a "cover up" of other colors. The bay/black/chestnut/whatever is the base, and the grey is expressed over the top. Like the cream gene acting OVER chestnut to produce a palomino.

Does that help?

Gotcha ;)

Scaramouch
Dec. 15, 2009, 10:14 AM
Wouldn't that gray with two gray parents still have a 50/50 chance of being heterozygous if one of the parents was homozygous and one was heterozygous?

TSHEventing
Dec. 15, 2009, 10:46 AM
TSHEventing, if you breed a grey to a grey, you are guaranteed to get a grey--simple genetic formula! (Same for chestnut to chestnut :))

Sounds like your grey baby will have fabulous bloodlines; good luck with what will surely be a fabulous prospect (and enjoy cleaning him/her up for the HTs ;))


Grey is dominant.. but grey really isn't a color.. the best description is a color superimposed over another color. Grey's are born one color and the G takes over.

That being said, I believe both Formula One and my mare are Gg and thus there is (actually there is a lightly under) 75% chance the foal will be grey.

Check out the breeding links in the sport horse forum. There is a great color genetics tool that is fantastic to play around with.

JER
Dec. 15, 2009, 12:27 PM
How did JER's foal wind up grey if the mare was homozygous for brown, and the sire was Gg? Does "homozygous for black points" *only* mean that the baby can NOT be chestnut? This is still a bit confusing, but then again--I had to get up extra early this morning, and my coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet!

My filly is brown and grey. She has a big E for black and one gene for grey (G). Which makes her heterozygous for grey and probably also for brown (I think her sire was chestnut before he was grey, which would give her an 'e').

My mare can't have a chestnut foal. Her pedigree has no chestnuts in it at all. They're all bay or brown with a few blacks scattered around. Her first filly is brown, out of a homozygous brown stallion. Her second filly is black, out of a bay stallion.

(They all look very much alike, so I always get the names mixed up. They all go the same way, too, which makes it easy to forget who you're riding.)

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 15, 2009, 12:40 PM
How did JER's foal wind up grey if the mare was homozygous for brown, and the sire was Gg? Does "homozygous for black points" *only* mean that the baby can NOT be chestnut? This is still a bit confusing, but then again--I had to get up extra early this morning, and my coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet!


Because the mare only contributes one gene and grey is a dilute. So JER's filly probably started out as brown...but also got the Grey dilute gene so is now turning grey...but her base coat is brown.

This is important if she breeds this filly to know what possible color that offspring could be. For example, my dark brown mare's sire was gray. I don't know what his color was BEFORE it diluted grey. I bred her to a black stallion...whose sire is chestnut.

So even though I bred a dark brown, almost black mare...to a black stallion...I still may have a 25% chance of a chestnut foal (if my mare's sire was a chestnut before he turned grey). And since the fetus has been sex typed as a filly....I still have a chance at a chestnut filly (that would so be my luck:winkgrin:). But since I don't know what my mare's sire's base coat color was before he turned grey...I don't really know what the color choices are for her foals...or realy chances. I ordered a black filly but will just have to wait and see!

Only thing I will NOT get...is grey. You have to have at least one grey parent to get grey.

JER
Dec. 15, 2009, 12:56 PM
The Agouti gene controls black distribution - so recessive in that department gets you a black horse.

My black filly (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28168510@N07/2847110881/) (mentioned previously) is out of a bay stallion. But because she's black 'a', the stallion is Aa. Not sure what else is in the mix, especially as the stallion is of a breed with unusual coloring.