Mystery hoof yuckiness - thrush, white line disease, random fungus?

[FineAlready]

I'm looking for some thoughts on some yuckiness my gelding has in one hind foot. He is currently on prolonged stall rest for an unrelated problem. Here are his symptoms:

1. Hoof was extremely stinky and the frog was mushy and had some loose pieces on one side. I treated for thrush, but the problem only got marginally better. He was trimmed/shod by the farrier during this time and the farrier said nothing, which, rightly or wrongly, made me feel as though the problem was not as big a deal as I originally thought.

2. Had the vet look at the hoof. Vet cut away a bunch of dead, stinky tissue and told me to treat for thrush for two days. What he cut off was black. Underneath, there was healthy looking frog. I asked if it was thrush, and the vet said that it was some sort of infection (possibly thrush) that likely resulted from some sort of trauma to the frog (stepped on something sharp, etc.). The vet report does refer to the problem as thrush.

3. Treated for thrush and all seemed well. Smell was greatly diminished (almost gone) and the new frog was growing in nice and firm.

4. Then, yesterday, I noticed that his heel on that foot is soft and "squishy." It actually makes a squishy noise when I press on it (ew). Horse is moderately sensitive to pressure on the heel, but not as much as I would have suspected. Basically, one side of the heel is completely mushy and decayed. I can wiggle a chunk of his heel around and I feel that it really should be trimmed off (whatever it is). Farrier was supposed to come today but couldn't due to weather. This heel ailment smells the same as the original problem with the frog. However, there is no dark tissue here at all. The heel is slightly lighter than his normal hoof color (he has white hooves anyway, so it's hard to tell). There is some very slight white powdery stuff in the area. It's sort of the consistency of a fine layer of Brie cheese. If I'm picky about it, I suppose I can find some mild heat in that foot/heel. But definitely nothing overly alarming (i.e., if I wasn't looking really hard for heat, I doubt I would give this foot a second feel).

I gave the hoof a good scrub with Betadine today, let it dry, and then put Thrush Remedy in all crevices. Used Thrush Remedy because it is apparently antibacterial and antifungal, and I have no idea what this is.

My vet was out of town today, but I'll call again tomorrow. Farrier should be out sometime next week. Trust me when I tell you that no cost is spared as far as vet care, etc. go for this horse...so no need for lectures on how I should ask a vet and so on. I will be speaking with the vet tomorrow. I'm just trying to get an idea of other things that I should perhaps be looking for that would be consistent with one thing or another. You know - additional symptoms that I might not know to look for. Or, of course, any ideas on what this could be.

Haven't had much experience with thrush, and none with white line disease. Does white line disease have a smell? I know thrush does, but don't know what it smells like. This smell is an icky, rotten smell....maybe like rotten cabbage with a slightly cheesy undertone. The smell gets on your hands and does NOT come off despite repeated washings, scrubs with alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, etc.

Any ideas? What could this be? Anything else to look for?

[Equine Studies]

Ah, my life over the past little while since it's been so wet-I have never been so happy to see a snowstorm as I was waking up this morning to one.

I have been dealing with the same sort of thing (plus cracked heels/mud fever/scratches/whatever you want to call it). There are about a zillion different web sites dedicated to this topic and I think I have read them all. My mare is sick of having her feet cleaned and treated and lets me know-and not very sublty either. Frustrating for sure.

I have no advice other than from what I have read, a cheesy smell is a sign of a yeast infection. Just wanted to let you know you're not alone-good luck with your horse.

[FineAlready]

Thanks, Equine Studies. It definitely is a pain in the rear! I was thinking yeast as well, which I think might be similar (the same? Hope not!) as white line disease. However, since this seems to be mostly in the heel bulb and the original problem started in the frog, I don't really think there is any white line in that area. I'm wondering if yeast is perhaps feeding on the dying thrush. However, that doesn't explain why the "thrush" and this ailment smell the same.

As for the websites on this stuff - I find them very frustrating. Nothing seems to match my horse's symptoms, and the pictures always seem to be worst-case scenarios that don't really help me identify my horse's milder symptoms. Plus, I wish I could smell the pictures, lol. I'm pretty sure I could figure this out if I could smell some examples of various problems!

Anyway, thanks for your support. I'll post with my vet's response when I get it.

[alakazam]

I'd do some research on Canker. I don't know if that is what your dealing with, but its a possiblity. I've delt with a mild case before. My vet had me use a product that did clear it up. It was called Cleantrax. Here's a link to it:

http://www.centaurforge.com/CleanTrax-Hoof-Cleaner-25g/productinfo/10701

It's been several years since I delt with it, so I can't remember off the top of my head all of the symptoms. But, I do remember that the hoof is mushy and white 'culiflower' looking stuff grows. Good luck!

[FineAlready]

Thanks. I did consider canker and will ask the vet about it. I kind of doubt it, though, because there doesn't seem to be anything "growing" so much as there is a whole lot of stuff being eaten away. I.e., the mushy stuff is the same shape as the normal heel/heel bulb...just...mushy and sort of eaten away. Do you remember if the canker smelled at all? This is pretty, ahem, ripe.

[alakazam]

Yeah, it did smell. You could ask the vet if it would be ok to try the cleantrax. It's pretty heavy duty stuff. Now that you say 'sort of eaten away', I remember that a lot of the frog was damaged and seemed to just disapear. It did start to regrow after treatment.

[FineAlready]

Thanks for the info on canker. Boy, I hope that's not what it is, as it sounds hard to treat based on what I read. This poor horse - just when one thing is getting better, another thing pops up. Ugh, now I'm going to be worrying about this all night. :(

[ChocoMare]

Sounds like a royal case of Yeast going wild.

First, do what you can to eliminate as much sugar from his diet as possible for a while. The sugar is the Yeast Family's sole source of food. Time to shut down the buffet.

Since you've got high stink with necrotic tissue, I would do a White Lightening treatment. Just git-r-done.

In the meanwhile and going forward, out of all the thrush meds I have ever tried (and believe me, I've tried them all) the most effective has been Silvetrasol (http://prostores2.carrierzone.com/servlet/equinepodiatrynet/Detail?no=207). Easy to apply, no staining of you and the whole world, no fumes or smell. I have been amazed at how well it's worked.

I also keep a can of Lotrimin Athlete's Foot Spray for quick touch ups to the frog and heel crevices every time I pick a hoof.

[RidingAllDay]

Pictures would be useful if you want help via the internet.

How is his stall? Is it dry? Most thrush comes from manure/urine, if your horse is on stall rest, is his stall getting picked multiple times a day?

Where are the heels "smooshy"? Near the bars, the heel triangle, etc...? Where.

Why is he on stall rest, is it causing excess weight on this foot?

[FineAlready]

Thanks, Chocomare for the suggestions. RidingAllDay - horse is on stall rest for a front suspensory pull. He's sound on the leg now and on a handwalking regimine. Has never weighted any of his legs noticably differently, even when the injury first occurred. He's in a very large stall that is kept very clean (yes, cleaned multiple times a day - very nice full care facility). That said he is a good pee-er and I'm sure stands in it from time to time. The smooshiness is in the heel bulb area, sort of where the top of the frog turns into heel. Didn't have my camera with me and I don't live close to the barn, unfortunately.

[FineAlready]

Just spoke with the vet on the phone. He said that there was a chance it could be canker but that it is not likely based on how it looked the last time he saw the horse (about 2 weeks ago). Seemed to think this is probably the same infection from before and that this is additional dead tissue that should be cut away by the farrier. In the meantime, we are going to treat with betadine and thrush buster. If it doesn't improve pretty quickly, I'll have the vet out to check it out. Thanks for the suggestions!

[FineAlready]

Just a quick update on this to the extent others might find it helpful. I've been treating this hoof ailment as follows since Thursday:

1. Clean out hoof very well using only hoof pick. No water.
2. Douse hoof and all crevices with straight Betadine solution (not the scrub).
3. Allow to dry.
4. Put Thrush Buster on frog and in heel crevices.
5. Allow to dry.
6. Sit around waiting for horse to pee or poop and then rush in there like a maniac to clean it up before he steps in it, lol!

This has resulted in a pretty significant improvement. I think it will be even better after the farrier has a chance to trim away the dead stuff. As it is now, the smell is all but gone, and the heel has firmed up quite a bit.

I found out that iodine (the main ingredient in Betadine and in Thrush Buster) is anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, and anti-viral. So, basically, it's a wonder solution. It is the only thing that has even come close to taking away the awful stench, and it is the only thing that has done anything at all to dry out the hoof.

Just a heads up for others who are treating things that may or not be thrush. I doubt I will ever bother buying any other thrush remedies after this experience. As a bonus, neither the Betadine nor the Thrush Buster seem to sting.

[jollytrak]

you could use 'gentian violet' -- buy it from any drug store (same thing used for baby's thrush) and is the main ingredient in thrush buster, but costs much less. it is purple and will stain everything in sight.

another option to keep the foot dry is use a boot when you can't be there to pick out his stall.

[Hampton Bay]

Once you get it cleared up with your current treatment, you can use Hoof Heal dressing on the frog to help keep it at bay. It does actually treat thrush, and it works better than anything else I have tried. Since it is an oil, it also helps keep the crud out of contact with the hoof, at least for a little while.

[FineAlready]

Interesting Jollytrak - you're right - I see that gentian violet AND p.v.p. iodine complex are the two main ingredients in Thrush Buster. I was focusing on the p.v.p. iodine, but I see that gentian violet is also antibacterial and antifungal. I hear you on the staining! Right now the front of his (white) hoof is purple, as is the sleeve of my jacket, and the pocket of my jeans. Actually, it came off of my hands quite easily. I have a feeling that the clothing items are marked for life.

As for a boot, I'm guessing he would "reject" such a thing. He's never been a huge fan of leg-wear unless it is for riding. Even a few moments of wearing boots or wraps in his stall often results in destruction. And I know he can reach his hind feet with his teeth, as I've seen him do it!

Hampton Bay - thanks for the Hoof Heal tip - I think I'll try that! I always love finding products that work.

[matryoshka]

Piping in late, but it doesn't sound like canker to me. Yes, canker can smell, but not like you described. However, as your horse sheds hunks of frog, inspect to make sure there is no spot of whitish growth in the center of the frog. Canker is a growth, is sensitive, and has a blood supply (bleeds easily, weeps clear fluid). Horses do not like having it messed with.

I'm wondering if your horse might have had an abscess in the back of the frog.

[Hampton Bay]

I'm wondering if your horse might have had an abscess in the back of the frog.

That thought crossed my mind too, as I have seen a couple of those were there is a big hole and it makes squishy noises.

[FineAlready]

Yes, I do think it's possible that he had an abscess that we somehow didn't notice. It seems weird, though, since his feet are handled daily and he is actually seen by the vet very frequently (and jogged) due to the injury we are rehabbing. That said, when he is not being seen by the vet, he is on stall rest with hand walks twice a day...so it's possible that we wouldn't really have noticed any lameness due to his very limited "work."

It will be interesting to see what the farrier thinks when he sees it. It was just such an incredible shock to me. This horse has great feet, and, honestly, I've never really had any foot problems with any of my horses. I was pretty much disgusted that this happened on my watch!

[matryoshka]

If it is the support leg for the injured leg, then you've got a few things going on that might have masked any discomfort. If that leg has to compensate for the bad one, then it may have been a matter of whichever one hurt less not showing up as a lameness.

It doesn't have to have been an abscess, it just sounded a bit like you are dealing with the aftermath of a frog abscess. You would not necessarily have seen outward signs of an injury to the frog, since it is soft tissue that closes back up over wounds, and it is pretty darn hard to spot a bruise unless you are trimming the frog with a knife.

Also, it could simply be that he's spending a lot of time with his weight on that foot, and it doesn't get aired out the way the other hind would.

The support legs on lame horses take a lot of abuse, and sometimes need some TLC during and after the lameness. I've had horses abscess badly in their fronts when they've had an injury to a hind, and one of my guys became laminitic in the fronts when he had a bad leg abscess in a hind leg.

IOW, stop beating yourself up. ;) It happened, you are working on it, and being very thorough.

[chirojerry]

Ditto the clean trax

Jerry

[Madi]

Can you use thrush buster everyday?

[remarque]

From what you are saying about your horse, you have Canker! I went throught this with my gelding years ago but he had it in all 4 feet which I treated for almost a year with every thrush medication on the market to no avail. Nothing touched it. The vet I used had no clue ( he still doesn't but that is why I will never use him again) and it wasn't until I ran into a really good friend who has been in draft horses for 50 years told me it was canker and if I didn't get him fixed I could lose him. Yikes! He gave me a bottle of White Lightning which he used on his Clysdales,who are very prone to white line and it has cured his team of all white Line and in 1 month with my horse...GONE. Get yourself a bottle asap! I know it was recommended here already so take their advise and get to using it. Wonderful stuff and it is not expensive. About $14.00 a bottle. Good luck!

[matryoshka]

Seriously, it doesn't sound like canker. I've dealt with canker, and if there is no growth of white/yellow stuff in the center of the frog (not a film of white, more like a squishy tumor), it is unlikely to be canker. Not impossible, but unlikely. Canker grows and encroaches and eats away frog and horn alike. It usually takes surgery and/or aggressive treatment to cure. Been there, done that, one horse survived, one didn't (it was too advanced and horse was not cooperative for treatment (big draft, fast as lightening with his feet).

White line disease is in the hoof wall, not the frog. Many experts say that it is fungal in nature rather than bacterial. The difficulty with treating fungal infections (including yeast, I think) is that treatments that kill the growing fungus do not always kill the spores. If there are spores, it can still spread. That's one reason it is hard to get rid of. A horse can have WLD and a frog infection.

When there is infection in the frog, I usually recommend people start by treating it with mastitis ointment. This is in case it is thrush, which is bacterial (learned that recently, thanks to knowledgeable people here at COTH). If it doesn't respond to mastitis ointment, chances are it is a fungus or yeast.

Some people recommend mixing a triple antibiotic ointment with medicated athlete's foot cream and applying that topically, via syringe if there is a crevice in the frog. That should take care of bacterial and fungal problems simultaneously. Again, the problem is that fungus has a spore state, and not all fungicides kill the spores.

BTW, I'm a trimmer, not a vet. I used to volunteer time and trims for a horse rescue, which is where I encountered canker. It is also how I became very familiar with rehabbing neglected feet and all the lovely problems that happen when people don't care for their horses adequately. OP, missing this problem in the initial stages does not make you a neglectful owner.

For those interested in more info about canker, MayS set up a yahoo discussion group for those dealing with canker. It is serious stuff. There should be plenty of pics for comparison if you have any doubts about whether a horse in your care has it. Sorry to sound so bossy, but a canker diagnosis is serious business. Our vet had not seen it before we encountered it, and she researched the treatment. It took two surgeries and cryo treatments to get rid of it, along with daily White Lightening treatments when it started to grow back after the second surgery. I got to be very familiar with how it looks in advanced stages as well as how it looks when it is recurring. Nasty, nasty stuff.

[FineAlready]

First, before I forget - my vet said I could use Thrush Buster every day for a short time. I don't think it is something you would want to use every day on a regular basis, though.

Okay, I really, really don't think this is canker. I'm keeping an open mind and will adapt to the situation if it changes and I start to think it is canker, but at this point, I just really don't think so. I do appreciate the discussion on canker, though, as it is not something I am familiar with and it gives me signs to watch for. Discussions like this are how we all think and learn, and I very much appreciate everyone who has commented.

The vet who saw this a few weeks ago (before it moved into the heel area) told me on the phone that he didn't think it was canker (and he has seen canker before). Of course, vets can be wrong, but I do respect this vet very much. He is a well-respected lameness specialist and equine surgeon. Prior to using him, I used two other vets for the suspensory injury and I did not feel that either of them treated that injury aggressively enough (hence the new vet!). They were sort of like, ho hum, we'll see if he improves with rest. One of them did not even want to ultrasound it. My current vet did shockwave and has my horse on an extremely conservative rehab schedule with frequent rechecks and re-ultrasounds. He has improved dramatically while in this vet's care (sound on it now and the ultrasound looks almost perfect). :) So that should give you an idea of who I am and what I value in a vet: extreme attention to detail and aggressive pursuit of solutions. I am happy to say that this vet fits the bill.

In other news, the farrier trimmed the horse yesterday and said that we should keep treating for thrush and that the problem should clear up quickly now. Took a look at it last night, and it is MUCH better after the trim. No white growths that I can see, and, despite a moderately aggressive trimming of dead tissue, there are no bloody/weepy areas. His hooves are white, though, so seeing a white growth might be trickier than usual... That said, his frog and heel look nice and smooth where they were trimmed. And he didn't seem to have any pain in the frog and heel area.

Also, for what it's worth, this horse is a TB, not a draft. Not that he can't get canker, but he's not in the "high risk" category that he would be in if he were a draft.

[sedaistable]

Poor jazz was on stall rest for a while and I used shavings and cleaned his stall twice a day.He still managed to stand in the wet.I tried all sorts of things.My farrier suggested trying TODAY cow mastitis medicine.It kills clostridia bacterias which cause tetanus amongst other things.
Jazz had mushy frogs and a large cleft in the middle of the frog where if I looked close I could see kind of light yellow slimy stuff.That cow stuff worked great.Within a few days his frog was firm and grew back quick.Then I switched to Koppertox to put a protective barrier from the pee.Alu shield might work.Switching back and forth cost me little time and was the only thing that worked among all I tried.

By the way,the cow stuff is AWESOME for deep puncture wounds and cheap if you can just buy 1 tube at a time.I think I paid $2.50 last time