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View Full Version : Leasing horse and Owner got ribbons in Houston



gold2012
Dec. 8, 2009, 07:55 PM
Hi all,

Just a word of warning, if you show at the SJHSA at all, on a lease horse, or a horse that you are just using for that division to get year end awards, make sure you have something in WRITTING that you get the awards, cause even when SANJAC KNOWS you paid entries all the owner has to do is call and get year end awards sent to them. No questions asked. Right or Wrong, they don't care. I hate that this happened, and know there are a ton of kids out there leasing horses...people can be super ignorant, and not care. So make sure you have something to back you up. And don't think it being on rider is any help...cause it has nothing to do with anything. So rider BEWARE.

Tex Mex
Dec. 8, 2009, 09:42 PM
Don't the prizes always go to the owner if the class is judged on the horse? I would think only equitation prizes would go to the rider? The only time I've ever seen something different is if the owner and rider have a specific situation worked out in advance.

gold2012
Dec. 8, 2009, 09:55 PM
I dunno about that, but I know that everytime we have ever won ribbons on another owners horse, at the awards banquet, we ALWAYS got them. On top of this, the division was awarded based on HORSE/RIDER combination. Meaning if the horse was used by any other person, then that person/horse would count seperately. On top of this, it was a lease situation where we used the horse for the day, paid the entries, and paid the hauling. Just like most of the other people that lease. IF that were the case, think of how many kids/adults out there, who lease a horse, pay the class fee's and trainer fee's and then they don't get the ribbons that they earned?

I think before associations take money from riders who are on different horses, they shoudl be sure who they are going to give the ribbons to at the end of the year. I am absolutely amazed that SAN JAC did this. And they did it, inspite of the fact that they knew we were paying the entries, and it was indeed a class that was based on Rider and Horse. Not that it really mattered, am not that worried about us, but that opens the door for a lot of other people to have the same situation happen to them.

Just a warning with this particular organization. I doubt GHHJA would have done it, or STHJA, they know us well.

IF the owner pays for the entries and for any other expenses, than of course they should be entitled to the ribbons, and we always make sure in those scenerio's that the owner GETS the ribbons. Just irks me when an organization I have spent thousands of dollars with chooses to ignore my attempts to have them do the right thing, and disregard our notices, and what was aparent to them. I doubt they ever even met the owner of this horse...as they never came to any shows.

Roxy SM
Dec. 8, 2009, 10:10 PM
It doesn't sound like the association is at fault here. It is not their responsibility to look up who paid the show entries and then give the ribbons only to that person. It is not wrong of them to give them to the horse's owner. Of course if you are leasing a horse and pay the show expenses then you are entitled to ribbons, but it is your responsibility to work that out with the owner, not the show associations job!

S A McKee
Dec. 8, 2009, 10:11 PM
Hi all,

Just a word of warning, if you show at the SJHSA at all, on a lease horse, or a horse that you are just using for that division to get year end awards, make sure you have something in WRITTING that you get the awards, cause even when SANJAC KNOWS you paid entries all the owner has to do is call and get year end awards sent to them. No questions asked. Right or Wrong, they don't care. I hate that this happened, and know there are a ton of kids out there leasing horses...people can be super ignorant, and not care. So make sure you have something to back you up. And don't think it being on rider is any help...cause it has nothing to do with anything. So rider BEWARE.

Prize goes to the owner of the horse.
USEF does it that way. Look at their year end standings. Horse name/Owner name.
If a lease is filed with USEF then the horse is shown in the name of the person leasing the horse. In that case the owner becomes the person leasing.
Most local associations give the prize to the owner.

SkipChange
Dec. 8, 2009, 11:04 PM
If you feel so inclined, you could place an order with a ribbon making company, www.hodgesbadge.com is frequently used. If you know what places you got just order yourself some ribbons in the placings you earned. Ribbons usually aren't very expensive, go get some nice big ones. Heck, if you know what the year end ribbons look like you can even match the style.

gold2012
Dec. 8, 2009, 11:31 PM
yes, well let me also replace the Championship ribbons. And we aren't talking a recognized show series, so....getting the whole leasing thing through USEF would be a little overboard. AND we aren't talking people who didn't know that this was going on....They knew. And at the same time, they gave us ribbons that were for horses not owned by us...at the same banquet. So....it was only a championship that they felt the need to do....

here is the thing okay...IF they had that policy accross the board, no problem. IF they hadn't known us well, again, no problem. IF they hadn't handed ribbons out to us that belonged to yet a different owner, no problem...but the championship ribbon, trophy and prize were not?

Well, all I really care is this, when you are showing someone else's horse, and it is a small circuit, and all, you should have in writting that you are leasing that horse, or borrowing it for the day or whatever...because all the money you put into going to that show, and making sure you are there, especially if you are chasing points for champion, which we were, can be wasted if the owner decides they want to claim the prizes. I know of several kids who "borrow" a horse for the day, be it a lesson horse, or someone out at the barn who doesn't mind, if it could happen so brazenly here, then it could happen to some kid. And it has been my expierance that people will get "prize hungry" and grab what they can. Personally, I don't need another ribbon, we have a wall full, I don't need the bridle, and I don't need the trophy, but it shouldn't have happened like it did.

gold2012
Dec. 8, 2009, 11:48 PM
Okay, thinking about this. I can just see where this is going to end up going. FYI, after posting this, I have gotten two PM's from other's who show there in that circuit, and had it happen to them. One was a 10 y.o. and the trainer took the ribbon and said to her "It's My Horse".

I want to reiterate, we don't much care about the prizes or ribbons, she won the championship, and that was the fun part. As for the owner who took what didn't belong to her, she isn't our problem anymore, and are moving on with bigger and better horses.

I just don't agree that ribbons/prizes should go to an owner automatically. I believe if it's a rider/horse combination that is prized, then give the "rider" the awards. Let him and the owner deal with who get's what. I believe most riders give the ribbons over to the owners. I don't believe visa versa happens as easily. I don't think it's up to an organization to decide that, and get in the middle. IF it's based on horse soley, well, then that might be a different matter...but even then, if there was a box to check on the sign up that you are leasing the horse, and therby get the ribbons, etc...see where I am trying to go for this?

I just know it has happened a few times in this organization, and it was just a warning. No one should have an objection to someone filing a note with San Jac or any other association, that this person is leasing the horse, no matter for a day, the show, or anything else.

I also think that if an association is going to have a rule, which they don't, regarding this, it needs to be the same accross the board...not just when it's us, or someone they don't particularily like, or a grand champion ribbon.

Again, who cares about ribbons, plates and bridles. My daughter is a great rider, headed to much higher things...but watch out for the kids out there. End of points.

HenryisBlaisin'
Dec. 9, 2009, 12:03 AM
Last time I showed for points, our local treated a full lease as though the rider "owned" that horse for the circuit and the awards went to the rider. At every barn I've boarded with, if the lessee is paying all of the horse's bills and entry/other show fees, they get the ribbons. I have some nice year-end ribbons I won with a leased horse.

If you are showing FOR someone (even if you are not getting paid) and/or they pay any of the horse's bills, they get the prizes from all classes judged on the horse.

IMO, for the trainer to take the ribbon from the 10-year-old is just a really crappy thing to do, unless it was arranged before hand...but still, pretty lousy...

Roxy SM
Dec. 9, 2009, 12:18 AM
I just don't understand why you think it is the show association's fault. This is a disagreement between the rider/leasee and the owner. It really has nothing to do with the show association. They aren't doing anything wrong by giving the prizes to the owner.

Linny
Dec. 9, 2009, 12:19 AM
If you are in line to win a year end title it would seem to make sense to discuss with the owner before the awards ceremony how you might split prizes etc.

It seems that if you are leasing long term (not just "for a few shows") and have been the regular rider, it would be a nice courtesy for the owner to allow you to keep prizes/ribbons. After all, they were compensated for the use of the horse. (I am assuming that the rider is an ammy.)

If the rider is a pro, the owner gets the award as the pro is compensated for his/her riding skills and has been hired by the owner to show etc.

As for the BO taking the award from a 10yo child because she owns the horse, that's pretty sad.

SoBeIt
Dec. 9, 2009, 04:34 AM
We will be leasing our horse for the competition year and I could not imagine taking an award away from someone who has been successful in the show ring!! When a professional shows the horse and is compensated for that, then the prize (ribbon/money/halter, etc) should go to the owner of the horse to do with it what they please (keep/give to the pro/etc). If someone is paying for the expenses of the horse at the show or on a regular basis, then the prize should go to the party that pays the bills.

We have bee careful and hope that we have a someone leasing our horse who will be a good match and able to show him off so, the expenses and the glory will go to the leasee. The record goes with the horse, so the leasee's success should be enough.

Taking a year end/series award away from a 10 year-old who has earned it is NOT okay! Perhaps in this situation the association should offer to order two ribbons (one for the rider/leasee and one for the owner) at at fee that will cover the costs. That way everyone will be satisfied.

Jumphigh83
Dec. 9, 2009, 06:17 AM
If you pay the lease and you pay the entries, the prizes are yours.

Jaegermonster
Dec. 9, 2009, 06:21 AM
Okay, thinking about this. I can just see where this is going to end up going. FYI, after posting this, I have gotten two PM's from other's who show there in that circuit, and had it happen to them. One was a 10 y.o. and the trainer took the ribbon and said to her "It's My Horse".




I think I would be finding a new trainer. Ribbons mean a lot to kids that age, and that's a pretty shitty thing to do.

I could see the owner wanting the ribbon if the horse won something at Warrenton or Devon or somewhere like that, but at a schooling circuit?? Give me a break. And I"m with those who said if you are leasing the horse and paying it's bills, the awards are yours. It's different if it's a school pony that everyone in the barn showed during the year.

RockinHorse
Dec. 9, 2009, 08:17 AM
I just don't understand why you think it is the show association's fault. This is a disagreement between the rider/leasee and the owner. It really has nothing to do with the show association. They aren't doing anything wrong by giving the prizes to the owner.

This!

It is an incredible amount of work to put on a show series, track and tally points, order and distribute prizes, not to mention putting on banquets etc.

This is a disagreement with the owner who it sounds like contacted the association before the OP and asked for the prizes. It is not the association's responsibility to referee a dispute between the owner and the rider.

I do think this is unfortunate since, in my experience, absent any specific agreement, the prizes would go to the person who is leasing.

One question, was this a full lease or a lease for show days only and, if it is for show days only, is there a separate lease fee for the horse apart from the show expenses? While I would still think that the person leasing should get the prizes, if the owner is paying 100% of the horses expenses 365 days a year and letting someone else show, I can see why they might feel they are entiltled to something.

Giddy-up
Dec. 9, 2009, 09:44 AM
Who paid to sign the horse up with the local association for the year end awards? The horse's owner or the leasee?

If both parties (leasee & owner) were there when the prize was handed out, why is the association being blamed for giving it to the wrong party? Those 2 parties could have hashed it out right then.

I am a board member on a local association. Planning the year end banquet each year is the equivalent of planning a wedding for 400 people PLUS the awards for 50 some divisions. We can only go by who is listed as owner on the membership form. We don't have a space for "leasees" nor do we track those. That is to be worked out between the leasee & owner because honestly we already have enough on our plates.

jse
Dec. 9, 2009, 09:46 AM
Umm....they are ribbons. What's the big deal?

heartinrye
Dec. 9, 2009, 10:17 AM
I moved to New England last summer, where local associations are HUGE and people chase points like nobody's business... So I leased a horse for the summer/early fall and was told to enter him and I in all of the associations.

What ALL of the associations told me is to put myself down as owner, otherwise I would 1) be responsible for owner's association fees and 2) would not receive any of the awards, and I would be responsible for the fees to send all the awards to said owner (as she lived a few states away). So I did, he was registered with USEF under owners name, but according to all of the local stuff he was 'mine'.

Jumphigh83
Dec. 9, 2009, 10:29 AM
Umm....they are ribbons. What's the big deal?

yup, they are "just" ribbons..so why would an adult feel the need to confiscate them from a KID? Hope the "owners" feel the accomplishment...

findeight
Dec. 9, 2009, 10:39 AM
If it is NOT a USEF show?

Just list YOURSELF as owner on your annual membership application and horse recording form and on each show's entry blank.

It does NOT matter and the board of these things really does not care. The secretary gets the results from the show and just processes them according to who and what the paperwork says, they don't cross reference with personal notes. If the membership information master list says Pookey is owned by John Smith, John Smith gets the points credited to him for all Hunter and Jumper classes, Lisa Leasor gets the Eq points credited to her (if she is also a recorded and paid up member).

Lisa can list herself as owner on the membership form at the beginning of the year and on the show entry blanks.

It is NOT the USEF and it does not really matter as long as the lease contract is clear on the actual owner.

"They" really don't always know (or care much about) lease, half lease and ownership agreements-it's what is on the forms and what the show sends in.

supershorty628
Dec. 9, 2009, 11:00 AM
If this is such a big deal to the rider, why not ask the association if they have any extras? I know it sounds silly, but I did it when one of the ponies I showed got a zone award - the owner very much wanted the ribbon, and I wanted one as well because I'd never gotten a zone award - and there were duplicate ribbons, so we both got them. There was no conflict or anything. Even if it sounds silly, it's worth asking. What's the worst that could happen? You're told no.

*Liz*
Dec. 9, 2009, 11:06 AM
At the risk of sounding stupid, have you asked the owner if you can have the ribbons/prizes since it really means a lot to your kid? I may have misread your post, but I believe you said the prizes got mailed to the owner, maybe it was a simple confusion. If you haven't yet, I would be talking to the owner, not ranting about the association or whatever.

Sport
Dec. 9, 2009, 01:36 PM
I think this is a problem between owner and rider, not the organization. I can't imagine an adult taking a ribbon and prize from a kid, but there is lots of stuff out there that I can't imagine happening that does.

If it happened in error I would hope that the owner would forward the prize to the rider.

JinxyFish313
Dec. 9, 2009, 02:06 PM
This is over ribbons? I could see a conflict (between rider and owner, not association) over prize MONEY, but ribbons? really? Knowing you won should be enough.

alteringwego
Dec. 9, 2009, 03:14 PM
Usually if a horse is leased then then the person leasing gets the ribbons and awards. Can you talk to the owner and explain that you'd really like to have them?

Pirateer
Dec. 9, 2009, 03:32 PM
There is no "USUALLY" in the horse business.

Ask about everything up front.

hntrjmprpro45
Dec. 9, 2009, 04:35 PM
Unfortunately this is something that should be addressed between you and the owner and probably should have been done prior to the awards banquet. I haven't really heard of a big dispute over schooling ribbons but to each his own. If the owner and you both want the ribbon then I would suggest asking the owner if you can at least see what company made the ribbon (or talk with the association) and have a duplicate made. Seriously they are very cheap and would probably be the easiest solution. Next time just talk with the owner ahead of time and work something out so there is no huge dissapointment during the year end banquet.

For all my schooling kids who lease or just ride my schooling horses I let them keep whatever ribbon/prizes they get. I usually get a few pictures of my students with their ribbons at the banquet to put in my scrap book to show off in the tack room.

Oh and I know how it feels to be on the short end of the stick. A certain organization (which is no longer in business) owed me money and a championship ribbon. I was the owner and rider of the horse and when my prize was not mailed to me at the end of the year I tried calling them repeatedly for several months. No one ever returned my calls and then the phone was disconnected (lack of funds). I ran into another exhibitor who said that they didn't get their prize (or money) either and that the organization dissolved. So I know how it feels but at least you aren't losing prize money!

gold2012
Dec. 9, 2009, 05:01 PM
Thanks to those of you who agreed. YES WE DID PAY ALL ENTRIES. WE BOTH SHOWED THE HORSE. Us in the one division, them in a hunter divisioin, where she didn't win anything.

I dont' care about the ribbons, I just think people should be aware of the circumstances, and yes, it can happen to you.

I have asked the owner, repeatedly for the prizes, but they refuse....I don't care...not really. They weren't that impressive, and we are onto bigger and better things...but thanks guys. I needed someone to just say yes, you should have gotten them.

As for the association, it wouldn't have been a big deal, but they knew we were leasing the horse for those classes, and I feel that since the class was based not just on horse or not just on rider, the least they could have done was given us the ribbon and plate, and maybe the owner the bridle...even if we did pay it all.

But they didn't. So I won't be going back. I don't have a show in that circuit, just went and took many clients....won't happen again.

loshad
Dec. 9, 2009, 05:13 PM
You don't care so much about the ribbons/prizes that you had to start a thread on CoTH? After having spoken to the owner about it "repeatedly?" :rolleyes:

You know you won an award on that horse. Presumably it's published in the association newletter. None of that is going to change because the owner has a $.50 ribbon and tin plate.

If you truly are a professional, I have to say I am not impressed with the way you are running down the horse on which you won a championship, the owner of said beastie, and the association in which you competed. Most local associations are pretty big, so it is beyond unreasonable to expect them to remember that you leased a horse for a few classes here and there.

Roxy SM
Dec. 9, 2009, 05:27 PM
Thanks to those of you who agreed. YES WE DID PAY ALL ENTRIES. WE BOTH SHOWED THE HORSE. Us in the one division, them in a hunter divisioin, where she didn't win anything.

I dont' care about the ribbons, I just think people should be aware of the circumstances, and yes, it can happen to you.

I have asked the owner, repeatedly for the prizes, but they refuse....I don't care...not really. They weren't that impressive, and we are onto bigger and better things...but thanks guys. I needed someone to just say yes, you should have gotten them.

As for the association, it wouldn't have been a big deal, but they knew we were leasing the horse for those classes, and I feel that since the class was based not just on horse or not just on rider, the least they could have done was given us the ribbon and plate, and maybe the owner the bridle...even if we did pay it all.

But they didn't. So I won't be going back. I don't have a show in that circuit, just went and took many clients....won't happen again.

We all agree that you deserved the ribbons if you were paying the entries, but how did you ever come to the conclusion that it is the show association's fault tha you did not get your ribbons? It just doesn't make sense in any way, shape, or form.

tothepointe
Dec. 9, 2009, 06:01 PM
Regarding the trainer that took a ribbon off a 10 year old I think the appropriate parental response to "its my horse, my ribbon" would be "your fired"

Pirateer
Dec. 9, 2009, 06:33 PM
Thanks to those of you who agreed. YES WE DID PAY ALL ENTRIES. WE BOTH SHOWED THE HORSE. Us in the one division, them in a hunter divisioin, where she didn't win anything.
DOESN'T MATTER
I dont' care about the ribbons, I just think people should be aware of the circumstances, and yes, it can happen to you.
Obviously you do care about the ribbons.
I have asked the owner, repeatedly for the prizes, but they refuse....I don't care...not really. They weren't that impressive, and we are onto bigger and better things...but thanks guys. I needed someone to just say yes, you should have gotten them.
Tough cookies. They bought the horse, they keep the ribbon if they feel like it. You want the ribbons, lease the horse through USEF or buy your own.

As for the association, it wouldn't have been a big deal, but they knew we were leasing the horse for those classes, and I feel that since the class was based not just on horse or not just on rider, the least they could have done was given us the ribbon and plate, and maybe the owner the bridle...even if we did pay it all.
It is not the associations problem to fix badly organized owner/rider squabbles.
But they didn't. So I won't be going back. I don't have a show in that circuit, just went and took many clients....won't happen again.
wow. way to be a professional! reminds me of my "EX" Trainer. Yupp, ex for a reason- if you can't wear your big-girl breeches maybe you shouldn't be a professional....


Aren't ribbon squabbles supposed to be saved for lil kids?
A trainer leased a horse for a class? Seems odd.

gold2012
Dec. 9, 2009, 09:53 PM
This horse was in training, but the owners didn't have a lot of money to spend. They wanted the horse to move up levels, but didn't have the income to do that. They wanted the horse to be a jumper but didn't have the money....Soo...we said that we would pay for her to go in jumper classes, pay for all expenses to get to that show. They would never have to pay anything. We were also competing, for them, in something else, and they got all ribbons and awards the mare won.

The mare is awesome, I don't recall ANYWHERE I said otherwise. I hope she does well with what they want from her.

The association knows us very well, VERY well, we make half of thier jumper shows. As in, our crowd makes the classes, so they know who we are, what we are riding...etc. etc. I called the association when I found out this was going to happen, and asked them to please not forward these PRIZES, as in a 300.00 bridle, etc. etc. and they did so anyway.

I brought this up, not because I really care about the prizes, but because I think PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW THAT THIS CAN HAPPEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE THE PROPER PAPERWORK. There are a ton of kids out there leasing horses from owners/barn owners/others, and this is the THIRD time it has occured in this association that I am aware of. They don't make it a common practice, they seem to pick and choose.

Big girl britches, how rude. I think it is entirely within being professional to expect Ribbons/Prizes/Plates to be handed out to those people who A: Paid for them, B: earned them. Just as I also think if the owner had paid the class fee's and the costs to get there, they SHOULD be entitled to them

RugBug
Dec. 9, 2009, 10:07 PM
this is the THIRD time it has occured in this association that I am aware of. They don't make it a common practice, they seem to pick and choose.

You were aware of it happening before and you didn't have formal lease documentation written up and submitted to the association? Sounds like your expecting someone else to take the fall for YOUR lack of organization and planning. No one is at fault but you. (although I do think the owner is out of line. Well within their rights, but out of line).


this
Big girl britches, how rude. I think it is entirely within being professional to expect Ribbons/Prizes/Plates to be handed out to those people who A: Paid for them, B: earned them. Just as I also think if the owner had paid the class fee's and the costs to get there, they SHOULD be entitled to them

Ranting on here does make you seem like you need to go put on your big girl breeches. You didn't do what you shoud've done and now you are paying the consequences. It's not fair, but it's how life works. No one is to blame but you. Betchya it won't happen to you again.

hntrjmprpro45
Dec. 9, 2009, 10:08 PM
It sounds like you were footing the bill but not actually leasing the horse? If you are truly a professional then you should either get compensated for the training or have negotiated ahead of time how prizes would be distributed. With unrated shows/local organizations leases are sometimes a grey area and its the riders responsibility to learn what is expected of them before they send in their entries. Consider it a lesson learned.

JumptheSky129
Dec. 9, 2009, 10:24 PM
I totally agree with Rugbug, Pirateer and hntr45. Gold if you truly are the professional you claim you are in so many other threads and post you have left before, you would be more organized so A: this wouldn’t happen to you and B: you wouldn’t need to post a thread about something so meaningless just to get people on your side, are you still in high school? As far as the owner of the horse goes they deserve the prizes I am sure all you paid for were the entire fees and they have paid to board and maintain the horse that you are using. From what I have read it doesn’t even sound like you had any kind of contract/lease on the horse and that you are looking for someone other than your self to blame. So yes you need to put your big girl breeches on and grow up! If the prizes really "weren't that impressive" then why did you post the thread?!

alteringwego
Dec. 9, 2009, 10:58 PM
yeah now I'm seeing a very different side of the story. I was originally under the impression that you were a kid leasing or half leasing a horse.
As a pro, the ribbons and awards go to the owner unless decided upon prior to the awards banquet. You get the compensation from the owner, or if you're doing it pro bono then you get a thank you from the owner, recognition and if the owner feels like it then possibly they'll send you awards/ribbons.
I'm in the Rugbug, Pirateer, and hntrpro45 camp.

jse
Dec. 10, 2009, 08:44 AM
Just as a point of information. My husband trains and rides various horses for people in our area and when he shows he never gets the ribbons. He gets a "Thank You" and possibly, if results are good, the owner will give him a little extra cash. For example we took a greenie to a schooling show recently that he actually started and the horse won champion of his division at his first show. The owners took the ribbons and gave him a bonus with a nice note in a very sweet card, thanking him for all that he has done.
Now this may not be completely on subject here but it's just an example of how if you are training a horse, or "leasing" it which the OP seems to have done, that the owners get the ribbons and if they feel like it, they will give you something for doing a good job.

goeslikestink
Dec. 10, 2009, 09:05 AM
Hi all,

Just a word of warning, if you show at the SJHSA at all, on a lease horse, or a horse that you are just using for that division to get year end awards, make sure you have something in WRITTING that you get the awards, cause even when SANJAC KNOWS you paid entries all the owner has to do is call and get year end awards sent to them. No questions asked. Right or Wrong, they don't care. I hate that this happened, and know there are a ton of kids out there leasing horses...people can be super ignorant, and not care. So make sure you have something to back you up. And don't think it being on rider is any help...cause it has nothing to do with anything. So rider BEWARE.

depends on who paid the entry fees

Jumphigh83
Dec. 10, 2009, 09:12 AM
Just as a point of information. My husband trains and rides various horses for people in our area and when he shows he never gets the ribbons. He gets a "Thank You" and possibly, if results are good, the owner will give him a little extra cash. For example we took a greenie to a schooling show recently that he actually started and the horse won champion of his division at his first show. The owners took the ribbons and gave him a bonus with a nice note in a very sweet card, thanking him for all that he has done.
Now this may not be completely on subject here but it's just an example of how if you are training a horse, or "leasing" it which the OP seems to have done, that the owners get the ribbons and if they feel like it, they will give you something for doing a good job.

You husband is functioning as a professional not as the leasee of the horse.

Cookiewoo
Dec. 10, 2009, 09:15 AM
A point secretary does not match entries with horses and who paid for what. The person NOMINATING the horse for the year gets the ribbon, and most likely it's the owner. This is how USEF does it except in the case of a registered lease. Look at it like this, Academy horse Poopie goes to 10 shows with 10 different riders paying entry fees. Who is supposed to get the ribbon handed out at the end of the year if none of those riders is listed as nominating the horse?
I would not think it's anything personal. Most point programs are computerized and the horse/owner combination is entered at the beginning of the show year.

JinxyFish313
Dec. 10, 2009, 09:34 AM
I too didn't realize you are a pro and not technically leasing. I also don't know any pros who care, at all, about ribbons or bridles. Prize money is another story. I don't even pick up the ribbons that I win unless they are handed to me.

RockinHorse
Dec. 10, 2009, 09:52 AM
we said that we would pay for her to go in jumper classes, pay for all expenses to get to that show. They would never have to pay anything. We were also competing, for them, in something else, and they got all ribbons and awards the mare won.



You paid for the show expenses, however, it does not appear that you paid anything for use of the horse. If all you paid were your expenses related to showing, I do not consider that "leasing a horse", I consider that an owner very generously lending you their horse.

loshad
Dec. 10, 2009, 10:28 AM
As for the owner who took what didn't belong to her, she isn't our problem anymore, and are moving on with bigger and better horses.

I'd call this (and a couple of other comments) running down the horse. I can't imagine the horse community is too big down were you are. Do you really want to poison the well by bad mouthing an owner who did what she had every right to do because she is the owner of the horse? I'd be pretty angry if I were her that you were feeling free to discuss my financial situation on the interwebs. I also wouldn't, as a prospective client, find it very impressive and would cross you off my list in a flash.

If I may channel my inner Martha Stewart for a moment: Professionalism -- it's a good thing.

Ajierene
Dec. 10, 2009, 10:45 AM
As a professional rider, I do not ride a horse without compensation or some kind of contract. If I were helping sell a horse, I may take a piece of the profit. If I am riding a horse just to school it, I will not ride it without compensation.

As an example - currently riding is like a part time job for me and I ride one pony, once a week. This is the only ride this pony gets and he is young and really needs more rides. I am tempted, all the time, to ride him more often, but I cannot do it for two reasons: I am not getting paid to potentially get hurt and I am not going down that slippery slope of riding horses for free.

Gold2012, you write like a high school student, so here are some life lessons.

According to most show associations, a 'lease' is considered as such when the rider is at minimum paying board and expenses, as well as entry fees. The rider is riding the horse to further their own education, not just in shows. This means the rider is caring for the horse as well as riding. The rider may be riding a packer or a horse confirmed at a certain level to do well in a show circuit, but essentially the horse 'belongs' to that person.

Riding a horse for an owner, no matter how much the compensation is, can be considered training. This means that the rider is not paying for board and other expenses.

If you, as a supposed professional, did not come to an agreement with the owner beforehand, nor did you file a lease contract with the association, then the association would be left the only option that you are training the horse for compensation of some sort.

The association then will give the prizes to the owner, who nominated the horse. So the fault is yours that you did not get the ribbons you so covet.

Take it as a lesson in professional training - always be clear what compensation would be required for what service.

jse
Dec. 10, 2009, 11:37 AM
You husband is functioning as a professional not as the leasee of the horse.

I know this, but the OP has stated that she wasn't leasing the horse and that the owners didn't have the funds to show it so he/she was basically doing it for them on the OP's dollar....if there was no signed agreement, she wasn't leasing the horse she was simply showing it to get it more experience for the owners, which in my opinion would be acting as a professional and not a leasee.

gottagrey
Dec. 10, 2009, 06:36 PM
I dunno about that, but I know that everytime we have ever won ribbons on another owners horse, at the awards banquet, we ALWAYS got them. On top of this, the division was awarded based on HORSE/RIDER combination. Meaning if the horse was used by any other person, then that person/horse would count seperately. On top of this, it was a lease situation where we used the horse for the day, paid the entries, and paid the hauling. Just like most of the other people that lease. IF that were the case, think of how many kids/adults out there, who lease a horse, pay the class fee's and trainer fee's and then they don't get the ribbons that they earned?

I think before associations take money from riders who are on different horses, they shoudl be sure who they are going to give the ribbons to at the end of the year. I am absolutely amazed that SAN JAC did this. And they did it, inspite of the fact that they knew we were paying the entries, and it was indeed a class that was based on Rider and Horse. Not that it really mattered, am not that worried about us, but that opens the door for a lot of other people to have the same situation happen to them.

Just a warning with this particular organization. I doubt GHHJA would have done it, or STHJA, they know us well.

IF the owner pays for the entries and for any other expenses, than of course they should be entitled to the ribbons, and we always make sure in those scenerio's that the owner GETS the ribbons. Just irks me when an organization I have spent thousands of dollars with chooses to ignore my attempts to have them do the right thing, and disregard our notices, and what was aparent to them. I doubt they ever even met the owner of this horse...as they never came to any shows.


It is not the local associations job to monitor who leases whose horse to whom. The person or persons you should have this conversation with would be the owners of the leased horses - an understanding would be made that prizes would go to the riders. NOW having been on several local show assocations in the past with year end awards it can be an absolute Bear to get trophies back from parents. One falling out w/ their trainer or barn and that's it = a hundred years old trophy then becomes captive. Often the clubs I was associated with decided w/ some trophies that they were not going home with the winners. We always gave replicas and great ribbons.

Again, you need to have this discussion w/ the owners - not the show association.

sportassage
Dec. 11, 2009, 05:50 PM
This horse was in training, but the owners didn't have a lot of money to spend. They wanted the horse to move up levels, but didn't have the income to do that. They wanted the horse to be a jumper but didn't have the money....Soo...we said that we would pay for her to go in jumper classes, pay for all expenses to get to that show. They would never have to pay anything. We were also competing, for them, in something else, and they got all ribbons and awards the mare won.


Big girl britches, how rude. I think it is entirely within being professional to expect Ribbons/Prizes/Plates to be handed out to those people who A: Paid for them, B: earned them. Just as I also think if the owner had paid the class fee's and the costs to get there, they SHOULD be entitled to them

Read what you wrote. It really is nothing more than just bad business practices. If the horse is in training with you, that it is up to the owner to pay for the show fee and for you to ride it. I agree with everyone else that if you wanted something different than you should have talked to the owner prior to showing. The point here is, its not your horse. Regardless of who is showing it, its not your mare. I just went through this with my barn. I paid for my trainer to show my mare in fence classes and I showed in the flat classes. I kept all the ribbons. Mostly because my trainer doesn't want them but also it was the horse that did the job as they were hunter classes. (if they were eq classes it would probably be a different story)

ExJumper
Dec. 11, 2009, 06:09 PM
Is the OP for real? And supposed to be a professional!

Wow...