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View Full Version : Another pedigree thread - sorry...but I'd like to learn more about my boys.



Hollywood
Dec. 7, 2009, 12:00 PM
I am always facinated by these threads b/c I know nothing about pedigree. I know you don't ride the pedigree - but I would love some background/insight on my two boys. What's good, bad, etc, just anything.

Got this one two years ago, and he's an amazing mover, kind, forgiving, loves to work and he's turning into my once in a lifetime horse - he has far more talent than me! And his name is perfect for him - very cheerful, in your pocket pony:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+sun

This guy I just picked up about 6 weeks ago here in Indiana - I haven't done much, but so far he seems very quiet and a nice mover:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/noble+jones

WhiteCamry
Dec. 7, 2009, 12:24 PM
You could get their lifetime racing histories for $5 each from the Daily Racing Form's Past Performance page.

If they won any races you could contact the tracks where they won and ask for win photos.

Hollywood
Dec. 7, 2009, 12:27 PM
You could get their lifetime racing histories for $5 each from the Daily Racing Form's Past Performance page.

If they won any races you could contact the tracks where they won and ask for win photos.

Thanks WhiteCamry - I do have their past performance history. Mr. Sun had a long career and lots of start, he did win some races, I would love to have some pictures of him in his day!

As for Noble Jones - lightly raced but never won or placed.

Galadriël Fëfalas
Dec. 7, 2009, 02:59 PM
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+sun

he has Northern Dancer on his sire's side - very good bloodline! Can't see anything I recognise on the dam's side.



http://www.pedigreequery.com/noble+jones

Can't really see anything I know is this horse's bloodlines ...

fooler
Dec. 7, 2009, 03:46 PM
I recognize good lines on both horses.
What is most interesting is the variation of lines to those pedigrees we normally see.
Not saying it is good or bad - just unusual. As stated before - some of the names I recognize, just have no true knowledge of them. Am interested in others' comments.

Hollywood
Dec. 7, 2009, 05:13 PM
I recognize good lines on both horses.
What is most interesting is the variation of lines to those pedigrees we normally see.
Not saying it is good or bad - just unusual. As stated before - some of the names I recognize, just have no true knowledge of them. Am interested in others' comments.

Fooler - that's why I am kind of interested too - In Mr. Sun I recognize Northern Dancer fairly well, and then some others i've seen before, but no knowledge of them.

Then on Noble Jones, again I receognize some names, but I have no knowledge.

I guess really, none of it necessarily matters b/c they are both good ponies and seem suited to me, but I get people that ask what their breeding is, and I just give them a blank stare :-). So I thought it might be good to ask others that know a heck of alot more!

Christa P
Dec. 7, 2009, 05:21 PM
I have one that is tail male Grey Dawn/Herbarger. Unfortunately he was injured at three, but he is an amazing mover. Naturally balanced - he would have found upper level dressage easy.

Christa

fooler
Dec. 7, 2009, 05:32 PM
Fooler - that's why I am kind of interested too - In Mr. Sun I recognize Northern Dancer fairly well, and then some others i've seen before, but no knowledge of them.

Then on Noble Jones, again I receognize some names, but I have no knowledge.

I guess really, none of it necessarily matters b/c they are both good ponies and seem suited to me, but I get people that ask what their breeding is, and I just give them a blank stare :-). So I thought it might be good to ask others that know a heck of alot more!

Lines I know & like for Mr. Sun:
The Northern Dancer & Native Dancer lines tend to be sound, tough horses.
Copper Dawn goes back to Mahmoud, Hyperion and Polynesian lines - both found in good event horses I know
Forward Gal has similar breeding plus John P. Grier (the only horse to push Man O' War) & Man O' War, thru Flight Bird she has Teddy & The Tetrarch
The Dam's line has the above lines
In short very nicely bred, tho some inbreeding - but a nice cross of US & European blood lines.

fooler
Dec. 7, 2009, 05:41 PM
Noble Jones goes back to Ribot:
Owner: Lydia Tesio & Mario della Rocchetta
Breeder: Federico Tesio
Winnings: 16 Starts: 16 - 0 - 0, $294,414

At 2: Won Gran Criterium
At 3: Won Gran Premio del Jockey Club, Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe
At 4: Won Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, Gran Premio di Milano, K. George VI & Q. Elizabeth Stakes
Italian 2-YO Champion Colt (1954)
Italian 3-YO Champion Colt (1955)
Italian Champion Older Horse (1956)
United Kingdom Champion Older Horse (1956)
France Champion Older Horse (1956)
Leading sire in Great Britain & Ireland (1963, 1967, 1968)
Also is similarly bred to Mr. Sun. Includes 2 Triple Crown winners, Count Fleet (The Tetrarch) & War Admiral (Man O' War). Turn-To & Somethingroyal produced nice offspring

danceronice
Dec. 7, 2009, 05:57 PM
Noble Jones has Fappiano, which IIRC is a good one to have in a sport-horse pedigree.

I'm surprised to hear that about Northern Dancer/Native Dancer. They're not really known for soundness for racing (though they get fast sprinters), and Native Dancer's son Raise a Native is currently the prime suspect (as he's in something like 85% of current racers' lines) for weak ankles a la Eight Belles. RaN at least isn't a name you want to see come up more than once in the first five generations.

GreekDressageQueen
Dec. 7, 2009, 06:31 PM
Native Dancer lines tend to be sound, tough horses.

Really? I thought the whole controversy over Eight Belles breaking down at the Derby in 2008 was because she had so much Native Dancer blood in her pedigree and many of his progeny are unsound (or at least many TBs today with ND in their pedigree can have soundness issues.) At least I remember reading about it in the papers and on the Forums.

fooler
Dec. 7, 2009, 06:33 PM
Noble Jones has Fappiano, which IIRC is a good one to have in a sport-horse pedigree.

I'm surprised to hear that about Northern Dancer/Native Dancer. They're not really known for soundness for racing (though they get fast sprinters), and Native Dancer's son Raise a Native is currently the prime suspect (as he's in something like 85% of current racers' lines) for weak ankles a la Eight Belles. RaN at least isn't a name you want to see come up more than once in the first five generations.

The Northern Dancer/Native Dancer horses I have met have been sound. Possibly becuase they were not raced and used in different disciplines.
Don't remember if they were from RaN line or not.

birdsong
Dec. 7, 2009, 06:40 PM
I always enjoy looking at the photos on that site. Check out yours if you haven't.

Hollywood
Dec. 7, 2009, 06:41 PM
Thanks Fooler and everyone.

FWIW - Mr. Sun had 61 starts, never missed a race season from 2002-2007. I bought him in 2007 and since I've had him, he's been sound and tough (knocking wood)! This horse is big and leggy - 16.3 @ 1300lbs.

Of course he has the typical chestnut sensitive/precious response issues.

subk
Dec. 7, 2009, 08:35 PM
Noble Jones is lovely for sport. The In Reality/Intentionally top line that is from War Relic/Man O'War is highly desirable, then it shows up again in the bottom. What is also notable is that the Rassmusen factor (a mare twice in the 5th) is on My Dear Girl whose dam is also top line for War Relic. Caro gets you a little more of the War Relic (thru Relic!) stuff as well as some Precipitation. Nice stuff to be getting extra doses of!

Then lots of other nice things for sport: Bold Ruler, Princequillo, The Ax, Beadah gets you a little of the Ksar jumping magic, Prince John...

scubed
Dec. 7, 2009, 08:37 PM
I've known several with Cozzene on the dam sire side, and all have had the best temperaments. The Bold Ruler line on your other guy is interesting, different than what we usually see, but probably still good on the sport side

LAZ
Dec. 7, 2009, 09:42 PM
Noble Jones is lovely for sport. The In Reality/Intentionally top line that is from War Relic/Man O'War is highly desirable, then it shows up again in the bottom. What is also notable is that the Rassmusen factor (a mare twice in the 5th) is on My Dear Girl whose dam is also top line for War Relic. Caro gets you a little more of the War Relic (thru Relic!) stuff as well as some Precipitation. Nice stuff to be getting extra doses of!

Then lots of other nice things for
sport: Bold Ruler, Princequillo, The Ax, Beadah gets you a little of the Ksar jumping magic, Prince John...

Subk - This is the grey
horse you saw at my place. :-)

subk
Dec. 7, 2009, 10:16 PM
Subk - This is the grey
horse you saw at my place. :-)
That's what I was thinking...

By the way Miss Kitty (Zobbe) has wormed her way into the good graces and hearts of my neighbors who thought she was a stray, put a collar on her with their phone number and named her "Jackson." We called them and told them they were more than welcome to call "her" Jackson, but that she was indeed a girl kitty who was spayed and up to date on her vet work. So now she has the best of both worlds with an elegant plantation house where she can be "Upscale Kitty" then a groovy barn out back where she can be "Mouser Supreme." Shoulda named her Hannah Montana...

Hollywood
Dec. 8, 2009, 10:53 AM
Thanks folks for indulging my request, this is all pretty cool to read.


subk - so happy to hear Miss Zobbe (or Jackson) is living the good life!

frugalannie
Dec. 8, 2009, 11:37 AM
FWIW, the comments about Eight Belles' bloodlines were not about Native Dancer, but rather Raise a Native. I believe his presence, especially mutiple times, is considered a predictor of soundness issues, especially for sporthorses.

Raise a Native (ofter abbreviated as RAN), Mr. Prospector and Unbridled are some names that may be of concern. Not that there can't be terrific horses with those bloodlines, but thought should be put into what a horse with those bloodlines ought to be bred to, particularly if you want a sporthorse that will have a long, sound life. And the more those names show up, the more concern there should be.

Everything I know about bloodlines I've learned here on COTH! Asking these questions is a great learning tool.

findeight
Dec. 8, 2009, 12:09 PM
Fun to look sometimes. Although I think it's the first 3 generations that influence, sometimes you see alot of the same horses further back just through different sons and daughters.

For example, both of these horses go to Mahmoud, a French import in the 50s-who went back to France and sired sport horses. One of his grandsons, April Ax (by The Ax aka Ax II) was born and raced here and ended his stud career in France approved in several sport horse stud books.

In Suns case it is through Grey Dawn and in Nobles through Axe and Grey Dawn both (IIRC anyway). Not a bad thing to see in one you want to take to a second career. Mahmouds are known for soundness and trainability-my good mare is a grandaughter of Ax and daughter of April Ax with a dose of Bold Ruler. She has been a consistent performer in the Hunter ring to the USEF AA level. Ax and Grey Dawn (and April Ax) were West Coast based and ran on the turf at Santa Anita-and I was a kid in the stands-like I said, kind of fun. They were all grey, full bodied but not too big with pretty heads and refined throatlatch and neck.

The maternal grand sire, Holy Bull, was quite the horse as a 2 year old racer and has had some solid winners as a still young stud. Longevity may be a bit of a question and he is close enough to have an influence.

But, IMO, you got a good number of outcrosses in both of these and not alot of concentration on any one line so you should be ok from a genetic soundness point. And, you got some good ones in there that have produced for other disciplines.

LAZ
Dec. 8, 2009, 12:59 PM
That's what I was thinking...

By the way Miss Kitty (Zobbe) has wormed her way into the good graces and hearts of my neighbors who thought she was a stray, put a collar on her with their phone number and named her "Jackson." We called them and told them they were more than welcome to call "her" Jackson, but that she was indeed a girl kitty who was spayed and up to date on her vet work. So now she has the best of both worlds with an elegant plantation house where she can be "Upscale Kitty" then a groovy barn out back where she can be "Mouser Supreme." Shoulda named her Hannah Montana...

This Miss Zobbe wishes she could find a similar deal!

vineyridge
Dec. 8, 2009, 05:23 PM
Noble Jones

Late chiming in here, but Chieftain is a lovely line to find in Eventers, I believe. It's as much his mind and courage as other qualities. He was the damsire of Shaab, the great eventing sire. Chieftain's dam, the American Pocahontas, was also the dam of Tom Rolfe. I love the linebreeding in Noble Jones. Not only do you have doubles top and bottom to My Dear Girl, Rough and Tumble, Intentionally and Chieftain, but you also have doubles further back to Aspidistra and Roman. Abyssinia is a daughter of Abernant, and we all know what a grand sport horse line he is. Gotta say, too, that Judy-Rae is from a wonderful mare line herself. Another nice thing is that Holy Bull comes from a very rare and very tough sire line (Rough 'n Tumble) and is its last living branch unless there is a line to Dr. Fager out there somewhere. Holy Bull's are very precocious, but I don't think they are unusually fragile for these days. Macho Uno, Flashy Bull, and Giacomo had decent numbers of starts for big name stallions before they were retired to stud.

This is really an excellent pedigree for a sport TB on both sides to my thinking.

Mr. Sun
I, too, am leary of too much RAN in a single pedigree. But there are many, many Native Dancers who have proved themselves to produce for sport. Master Imp's dam sire is a son of Native Dancer; Primitive Rising is a grandson of RAN; Sea-Bird was a grandson of Native Dancer. As far as Eight Belles goes, there are a couple of strikes that could not have been avoided. 1--one of her RAN lines was to Exclusive Native, and it was on the bottom, and her second dam was Mr. P on top of Exclusive Native. 2--She was a very big filly in size and weight as are many Unbridleds Songs, and because of the precocity of Unbridleds Songs, she started early and worked hard. If she had been smaller and more backward she might have held up better.

Just on a guess, I'd be likely to say that he gets a lot of his talent from his dam side. Not only do you have Abernant again, but you have Nickey W. who was an iron horse and has two horses who proved themselves throwing for sport in the past--Negofol and Campfire. Free America has Petee-Wrack for a dam sire, and Petee-Wrack was not only the son of the chaser and flat racer, Wrack, but also sire two winners of the Maryland Hunt Cup. Braydore was the granddaughter of Roi Herode and is dam sire line to Marco, both lines of which are well established as producing for sport. Atara is a daughter of Polynesian who, even though he is the root of the Native Dancers and RANs, raced over 60 times himself. Atara's dam line goes to American Flag (MOW) on top and to a tail female line of bred in America mares who were crossed with imported stallions. Happen is also American Flag. The dam's sire line is to Catullus/Roman, and the Roman line is also well established in sport. Catullus's damsire was Spy Song (well established) and his tail female line is Blue Larkspur/La Troienne. So I'd say Mr. Sun got a huge amount from the dam line.

On top Polly's Jet gives you yet another line to Polynesian, making five on the first page. You should know that Polynesian's granddam was Selene, dam of Hyperion and Pharamond II. You get two lines on top and two on the bottom to Hyperion, which gives you nine to Selene. Lady Glory is another by American Flag, and her tail female line is a noted one for sport, since her dam is the same female line--Padua--that is doubled in Blue Larkspur, one of the great names in jumping TBs. It is also Relic's tail female line.

Flight Bird has special lines for sport. Her sire was Count Fleet and her dam was Pocket Edition. Count Fleet is a nice line for show jumpers, and Pocket Edition was also the dam of Pocket Ruler, a nice sport horse line from Nasrullah. She brought Roman (again) and a nice mare line with a touch of Ksar, along with a very well proved line to Stefan The Great.

Jet Action is a line to Blenheim and is one that has produced well for sport, as has his immediate sire, Jet Pilot. It can bring very nice movement. Greek Blonde is a daughter of Heliopolis and her third dam is Beaming Beauty, dam of Bubbling Over, who was Hildene's sire. Native Charger was a useful sire, not great, but he has a very large proportion of his get with very large numbers of starts. Forward Gal was a champion in her two year old year, and Fire Dancer was unraced.

All in all, I'd say that there are some things on top in Mr. Sun to like, and some things to not like as much. Bottom is very nice, and he has more than just a few lines that have been proved for sport.

Since he's a gelding, he's proving his pedigree every time he steps on course.

Edited to add: I just counted up the sport horses in Dr. Birdsall's 1981 Bloodlines book that trace to Roman in the first 4 and came up with 22, including Might Tango.

Hollywood
Dec. 9, 2009, 09:22 AM
Wow, thanks Vineyridge! This is awesome.