Stallion suggestion

[Formosus]

What stallion would you suggest for consistently improving toplines (specifically the neck set and saddle placement) and putting better canters as well as sane temperament on their foals?
Fresh or frozen

I know of Fabuleux that seem to really improve canters (not sure about toplines) Who else?

Thanks

[Spectrum]

Well, I can think of a few, but my answers might vary depending on what discipline you're breeding for.

I would stay away from most of the F-line and E-line hanoverians, as those lines are rife with less-than-ideal necksets. The W-line has that loin issue going on where they have that funny connection and tendency to drop out the back. You might find a few individual stallions in those lines that don't have the trait themselves, but if you're looking to improve I would stick with lines that are predominantly good for the traits you are trying to fix, as they have a tendency to pop up if you bring a weak mare back into the equation.

Honestly, some of favs have been Voltaire bred stallions (either 1 or 2 generations back). Consistently solid neck and topline conformation most of the time.

I've also seen a number of R-lines (particularly Rotspons) who have very good toplines. Redwine would be a good example of that.

Spectrum.

[Dressage_Diva333]

Definately look at Fabuleux :)


What about Pablo? I know some of his offspring can be a little bit on the 'hot' side apparently, but I've also seen some very calm and easy going ones. I've seen some excellent toplines on Pablo offspring :yes:

I know Benidetto's offspring are still young, but from what I've seen, they have super toplines, and great canters :) I think he's really a neat horse, with 'different' lines. I've been so impressed by his offspring so far.

A few others you might look at are:
Rousseau
Redwine
Fred Astaire, I have a short video of him schooling, and he looks fantastic... very elastic with three super gaits. His website doesn't have much info, but here it is:
http://tomnoone.com/freddy.php

[ahf]

I would stay away from most of the F-line

Well, no where does she mention necksets - and the two F line stallions I'm most familiar with - Fred Astair and Fielding - don't have this issue - neither do they pass it on. They both fit her criteria to a T, and i would go so far as to say that Fred Astair is a neck improver.

ETA - I have a thing about loin connections. Fred has an adequate one, and Fielding's is incredible. But then again both my mares have good ones themselves.

[Formosus]

Ok, sorry I guess I did not express myself precisely ennough, when I said improve topline what I meant is a strong neck connection, good saddle placement and strong well couple loins. So yes I am looking to improve the neck connection particularly. I will go an edit my first post.

Improving the canter: more lift, cadence and engagement of the hindquarters.

Thanks!

[Tasker]

Stallions I know personally (ridden) and who have several foal crops to back it up - Waldaire (Waldgott/Adios III), Avebury WF (Adamant/Dekor), Ironman (Inselfurst/Wienerwald) and Again and Again (Abundance/Our Tops xx).

[Home Again Farm]

Fabuleux definitely improved topline (shorter back, higher set neck, slightly stroner loin) when bred to my Rubinstein mare. The resulting coming 3 year old filly has a wonderful canter, too.

[clint]

I recommend Dauphin. Although only available frozen, it is very, very good quality. My foal by him has a super neck set and loin connection. Out of the same mare, with a good topline, the foal by Fabuleux had a good neck set but not nearly as good a loin. The Dauphin filly's temperament is superb as well.

[ahf]

I love Dauphin - very modern, elegant offspring - with lovely minds. I have seen him improve the neckset on many occasions - but I have not seen him reliably improve loin connection.

[YankeeLawyer]

I love Dauphin - very modern, elegant offspring - with lovely minds. I have seen him improve the neckset on many occasions - but I have not seen him reliably improve loin connection.

Ditto AHF. He can produce a VERY attractive and typey horse.

[railmom]

My Fabuleux filly has a better top line than her dam, very sweet and calm, good canter but her walk is what is outstanding. Pablo put the best loin connection on one of my foals, very good canter, shorter back and a little spice ;) The Quaterback colt had the best canter by far, great neck set, alert and sensible.

[STF]

I have been told nothing but great things of the canters of Puerto D'Azur foals and he himself scored 8 and 9s on his 100DT as well as the different registry inspections.
And from personal experience, Blue's canter is like sitting on a cloud and he has some of the most balanced changes of any horse I have ever ridden.

[mbp]

Do you have a registry or registries that you prefer to work with? And are you breeding for dressage or jumping?

[Dressage_Diva333]

Dauphin is another good suggestion...

I covet the Dauphin filly that Clint bred. I saw her at her inspection without knowing her breeding, thought "wow, that filly looks just like Dauphin" :) She's beautiful, I remember her having an excellent topline too :yes:

[Formosus]

Hi thanks for the response,
There seems to be violent agreement for Dauphin, great, now others out there that are prepotent for those three traits?

Because it was asked: registry and dressage or jumper inclination in the said sire is irrelevant: I'm simply looking for stallion that are prepotent for those traits. As long as the stallion is liscence/approved by a major registry its ok.

Thanks but keep it coming if you still have some ideas not mentioned here.

I thought Accord II usually put some really nice toplines on his babies, now is Accord III prepotent for those same traits?

[twotrudoc]

The first horse that popped into my head is H S Wistar (Hungarian), you can see pics and video of him and his get at
www.summervalefarm.com

[Forte]

This one's easy, Freestyle! He improved all the areas mentioned in my mare. I have seen many Freestyle offspring and they quite consistently have a good topline and excellent canter, as well as ammie friendly dispositions.
I have never heard of any problems with the neckset on F-line horses. Can anyone elaborate?

[mbp]

Well, I'm not super sure still I know what you want on topline/canter, but fwthey're worh, I'll toss these in for consideraton

Lingh (type and mind and quite good canter);
VDL Prestige - very nice, very Holsteinery canter,
Rousseau - lovely toplines and type and gaits.
I don't know anything about what he's throwing - bc he's young - but you might want to look at Ampere and maybe ask his rep to see if they can tell what he's throwing and temperament questions. He's got lovely type and gaits himself.
Amorex foals generally have nice toplines and good canters, esp from lighter mares.
Contendro (who received a 10 for his canter and has the Calypso II lines behind him)
Blue Hors Don Romatic
Quaterback (who seems to generate strong feelings both ways here)

That's a broad range of stallions who bring lots of different things to the table and have varying strength in different areas you mentioned, but one or two fo them might be worth considering based on your list..

[not again]

I have six offspring of Dressage Royal. They are consistently correct, strong in the areas you mention, beautiful and very kind. In that he has been ranked in the top 1% of all sires in Germany for the last three years, you may want to consider him. Obviously his frozen semen is first rate, and he is a Donnerhall son.

[wanabi]

Have a look at my stallion Sir Wanabi, he definitaly improved topline and the temperament is excellent.

Sandra
www.laprisestable.com

[Peg]

Lots of good suggestions! I have to speak up for Fabuleux. I have bred 4 fabuleux offspring, and the neck set and topline are what judges most liked about their conformation. Their gaits are are way above average. My 3 yo has a breathtaking canter and her other gaits are superb. My other suggestion is Benidetto. A beautiful filly, very nice gaits. Her topline is perfect and the loin connection as well. Good luck and please keep us posted with which stallion you choose! Peg:)

[Edgar]

Spectrum wrote:
I would stay away from most of the F-line and E-line hanoverians, as those lines are rife with less-than-ideal necksets.

Sorry Spectrum but that is a ridiculous statement. Escudo II has a breed value of 168 for his neck, you can not find a more reliable and ideal producer of riding horse type and neck in the US or elsewhere for that matter.
Escudo II is a smaller stallion producing super topline backed up by the highest breedvalues in North America and his kids are great to work with, focused, steady, talented and extremely atractive.

[monami]

Definately look at Fabuleux :)


What about Pablo? I know some of his offspring can be a little bit on the 'hot' side apparently, but I've also seen some very calm and easy going ones. I've seen some excellent toplines on Pablo offspring :yes:
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I have personal experiences with 2 Pablos (one we bred one we bought) Both were super super easy and quiet. Honestly both would probably be too quiet for a serious dressage competitor. But I will say he was a good improvement over both mares on necks/toplines and good hind ends.

[Edgewood]

I have personal experiences with 2 Pablos (one we bred one we bought) Both were super super easy and quiet. Honestly both would probably be too quiet for a serious dressage competitor. But I will say he was a good improvement over both mares on necks/toplines and good hind ends.

I have had 1 Pablo (coming 3 years) and 1 Pablito (coming 6 years). Both had super toplines. The 3 year old can at times be spooky, but actually is quite easy to work with (and no spookier or sensitive than her dam was at that age). The Pablito is half TB and is very easy going - junior owner says he is very quiet and never puts a foot wrong, even when given time off from a busy schedule. Both have very nice toplines.

Pablo filly (2.5 years old here)
http://www.facebook.com/kris.w.schuler#/photo.php?pid=3995235&id=146286488734

Pablito gelding (5 years old)
http://www.facebook.com/kris.w.schuler#/photo.php?pid=4696994&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=146286488734&aid=-1&id=626460389&oid=146286488734

Also have an Escudo II filly from 2009 who has a super neck
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fleetwood-PA/Edgewood-Meadow-Farm/146286488734?v=photos#/photo.php?pid=3441337&id=146286488734

And 2 Fabuleux with very nice necks who are now coming 3 and 4 years old. Super canters and walks. Nice trots.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3349758&id=146286488734

I will say that the Fabuleux's had less round movement at the trot (ie, very free shoulder but not a lot of knee). The Pablo and Escudo II have more round movement in front.

[Schiffon]

Schiffon definately fulfills all of your criteria. His offspring are smart, kind, very willing to work. Senitive in a good way.

Here are pics of a number of offspring as examples of neck/topline quality.

On this one, for exammple, the colt Schigazzo is out of a very old fashioned, large framed, angular Oldenberg mare and his topline is much improved. If you email me, I can send you a pic of his dam:

http://mysite.verizon.net/resxgr86/glamorganmanorinc/id4.html

On the second url there is a picture of Herzglanz cantering after only 2 months under saddle that exemplifies the balanced, supple canter that Schiffon passes on:

http://mysite.verizon.net/resxgr86/glamorganmanorinc/id3.html

I have many more pics of offspring available, but they aren't on the website because we are in the process of totally revamping it to show off our recent successes. If you have the COTH stallion issue, there are some current pics in our ad.

[serenityfarm]

What about Ferro or Ferro offspring?

[ASBJumper]

Have a look at my stallion Sir Wanabi, he definitaly improved topline and the temperament is excellent.

Sandra
www.laprisestable.com

Have to agree with Sandra, here. I have had the pleasure of seeing SW multiple times in person at local breeder's shows, as well as two of his fillies - WOW is all I can say. If I were interested in a Dressage foal I would breed to him in a heartbeat. :yes:

[Brutust]

Formosus, what are the mare's bloodlines? Do you need refinement or a larger type?

[Walnut Farm]

Yes, I would also ask bloodlines :)

Thank you for the Benidetto suggestions! he most certainly looks to fulfill your areas of improvements you look for in your mare.

On youtube, look Benidetto

Best of luck
Linda

[not again]

Dressage Royal has had some super offspring. If you are looking for a stallion with proven success through his get, there is information here:
http://watermark-farm.net/dressageroyaloffspring.html

[Formosus]

Thanks again to the COTH community for coming forward with its experience and knowledge.
This is not a "I'm trying to find a stallion for my mare" so approvals with certain registry or bloodlines are irrelevant to my question.
I'm looking for stallion that have proven to pass on better neck and saddle placement (upper topline) good canters and nice temperament.
Certainly stallions with quite a few foal crop have the advantage here as we can see what is consistently getting passed on. Even better is when I see recomendation backed up with pictures of offsprings (at maturity even better) even better if we can see the dam.
Thank you for all the suggestions so far and keep them coming, I look at all of them for sure and try to get a sense of what stallions are the most prepotent for those traits.

[pony grandma]

Even better is when I see recomendation backed up with pictures of offsprings (at maturity even better) even better if we can see the dam.


This is what every SO should be collecting and putting up on their websites. Just foal pics are not enough.

[Mini Me]

What stallion would you suggest for consistently improving toplines (specifically the neck set and saddle placement) and putting better canters as well as sane temperament on their foals?
Fresh or frozen

I know of Fabuleux that seem to really improve canters (not sure about toplines) Who else?

Thanks

I don't use imported frozen semen, so don't make any suggestions on anything that isn't domestic, just big on buying AMERICAN. Down here in Florida, I get to see a huge variety of offspring, which is definitely an advantage. The ones that I have seen that have consistently produced some pretty darn spectacular offspring (and these are only ones that I have had the opportunity to see and work with personally) are:

Don Principe (SUPER minded kids, beautiful canter and just beautiful looking horses)
Mannhattan (SUPER minded kids, really good toplines, spectacular canters and jumps)
Rolling Stone (the kids I've seen by him have had GREAT rear ends, beautiful toplines, nice minds)
Rapture R (Kids have great minds, I think he's underused, though)
Ideal (I think no one can argue about the minds on his kids. I've seen some really super kids, but I do think it depends on the mare).
Caleb (Under used, but wow. The kids I've seen by him have been super).

[Formosus]

Thanks Mini-Me
That is exactly the type of information I like to gather. It's great to be able to see in person a lot of offprings from the same sire, it doesn't answer the question on whether he improved on the mare but one has to think that if all those gets share some quality then the one common factor could well be the sire.

Seeing a lot of offsprings per stallion in person beats the other way I usually have to do it: scrolling the for sale add for gets by certain stallions.:winkgrin:

[RaeSportHorse]

I will add to the Amorex supporters! I have a now coming 2 yr old filly by him out of my Tb dressage mare.

I have had the pleasure of seeing him in person twice. A gorgeous stud, very muscular and Mr. manners at all times.

If you need improved bone, better gaits, stronger loin connection, STRAIGHTER LEGS, and easy temperament. Amorex fits the bill. Time and time again he produces amazingly well behaved foals that are conformationally built to last and collect with ease. Many are also turning out to have quite the jump on them, so he is one of those rare stallions that produces both!

I got to handle many of his foals in hand at the SWANA inspection 2009 and all of them were saints, and very flashy movers out of a variety of mares.

My personal filly loaded in the trailer the very first time without mom and has every time since then. The first time I bathed her she was standing free in the pasture and fell asleep. The first time she had her feet done she was a statue! This is in the Amorex blood, because while I handle my foals I did not spend enless hours holding her feet or getting her used to the hose. I just said ok let's try this and she always says "OK!!!" Mama is also a super reactive hot mare and yet baby is mellow yellow.

I bred mine to sell, but now I am keeping her as my next Grand Prix horse.

I was laughing today as the big diesel tractor rolled by her stall she stuck her head over and tried to nibble the wheels, clearly terrified of it! ha!

Mary is a pleasure to work with and very professional. Amorex chilled semen quality is excellent according to my vet, 80% + progressive motility.

For the quality he produces even on some mediocre mares his stud fee should be much higher, so take advantage of an affordable stamping sire!

If you want to see photos of her just PM me.

[RyTimMick]

I have seen quite a few Roller Coasters, and I can honestly say he improves toplines and canters. He is a GP jumper himself and he comes from a great stamm. I believe Acord III does well will toplines, but I do not know about Canter. However, my mare had an Acord III daughter who is was jumping 1.3m last year and was 53 point mare at her inspection. She had to have a good topline to score that high. She was 9867788 mmps.

Tim