MOs: What Would You Like In A Contract

[TouchstoneAcres]

Mare Owners: I am drawing up a contract for frozen semen and wonder what terms you would like to see? What do you think is fair? What sort of guarantees? Payments and pricing terms? Time limits? Etc. I want to to create a fair -to- generous one. As close to LFG as feasible with frozen.

[GGStables]

Nice of you to ask. I don't know which stallion(s) you represent but I'll give it a go. I'm also not a SO and just throwing out ideas as a MO which may not fit for reasons I know nothing about.

How about it being a LFG with the exact same stipulations & clauses as fresh cooled? Of course in those same clauses you insist on a reputable/experienced vet, healthy mare and so forth.

IMHO as the vet bills are way more with frozen, the by-the- dose fees should be more favourable than cooled (which I find is becoming less so) but I really can't see someone cleaning you out of frozen with an incompetent vet while their bills amass trying to get the mare in foal. Everyone hopes for a one-cycle insemination.

[FlyingPlum]

Thank you for asking!!

I would like to see a guanantee of post thaw motility. Nothing is worse than 'dancing the dance' and then not having a viable insemination dose when you are ready.

Thanks again for asking!!

[TouchstoneAcres]

We'd like to give a LFG but it is unusual with frozen. I agree no one in their right mind should breed with frozen more than 3 times w/o success! We are toying with acceptable terms that approximate a LFG. Like a right to 5 tries in each of 2 seasons or something? Just to rule out the crazy person who would keep trying forever. Or give LFG but limit tries each season. If a mare slips and they want to try again next season I wouldn't want to prevent that. But 3 years should be enough--by then you know she isn't a good frozen candidate?

We plan a stud fee instead of fees per dose. Maybe we could have 2 ways, one per dose no guarantee and one full stud fee with LFG. We know his semen is great. I will get the numbers on post thaw motility etc. Guaranteeing that is tricky because improper thawing can ruin it. On the other hand I was burned once with 10% crap and a top theriogenologist handled it. So I hear you.
It is ok to require breeding in a clinic setting, right? How else could a vet ultrasound every 6 hours or so?
If we approve the mares we can rule out 20 year old maidens or at least give no LFG and expaluin our reservations. Some mare owners don't realize the expense they could be getting into.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is ok to require breeding in a clinic setting, right? How else could a vet ultrasound every 6 hours or so?
If we approve the mares we can rule out 20 year old maidens or at least give no LFG and expaluin our reservations. Some mare owners don't realize the expense they could be getting into.

Are you ruling out mare owners using the frozen themselves, by using Select Breeders timed insemination?

Why not handle frozen just like fresh cooled. Stud fee, and then a small per straw fee (instead of a fresh collection fee) to cover freezing costs. Ship 2 doses at a time. Even older maiden mares can be handled this way, as the SO costs per straw and shipment would be covered. Contract for x# of years.

[siegi b.]

When I was a stallion owner in the 90's I only offered my stallion via frozen semen. But I would offer him with a LFG and would back that up. My big mistake was not asking for the breeding fee until the mare was ultra-sounded in foal because lots of folks would take advantage of that. Since I had been a mare owner before I was a stallion owner I thought that I wanted to do the right thing.... Well, all I can tell you is that no good deed shall go unpunished... :-) I had several people telling me that they didn't get their mares pregnant when they actually did, and then it was up to me to try to collect the breeding fee after the fact (which isn't easy!!).
My advice to any stallion owner in the US these days is - get your money up front!!

[TouchstoneAcres]

Yes a few bad apples ruin it for the rest.
No I don't want people to inseminate w/o a vet, at home. You must inseminate withing 6 hours of ovulation and I don't think you can pinpoint that well at home. It isn't in the MO's best interests or the SO's. Frozen isn't like cooled. I realize that limits the market but so be it. Other situations aren't likely to succeed and that woulds get a poor rep for the stallion. With frozen especially you will probably pay less in the end to do it right the first time.

Now is you ultrasound yourself, around the clock, and have produced foal(s) from frozen before, yes we could allow that.

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

If a LFG contract, to ship a min of 2 doses at a time. If vet only uses one dose and you get a pregnancy, you can buy the second dose at a flat reduced fee (reduced because there will be NLFG). I don't want to have to pay a few hundred to return an unused dose(s). If I bred to him in the first place chances are I would be more than happy to buy another dose if it was good quality and my mare caught easily.

[Fairview Horse Center]

No I don't want people to inseminate w/o a vet, at home. You must inseminate withing 6 hours of ovulation and I don't think you can pinpoint that well at home. It isn't in the MO's best interests or the SO's. Frozen isn't like cooled.

Not with Select Breeders timed insemination protocol. That requires one dose at 24, and another dose at 40 hours post hCG. Similar pregnancy rates have been obtained using this timed insemination as the 'round the clock, u/s every 6 hours to pinpoint ovulation. One COTH poster bred 7 of her mares using frozen with no vet intervention, and got 6 in foal on the first attempt.

So will you not allow this?

[TouchstoneAcres]

Well that would be up to the actual SO and the vets I suppose. I don't know of any Lipizzan owners who use that method or even do the insemination themselves. (The largest Lipizzan breeders would seem small to major WB breeders.) Of course other breeds may like him as well. In The Netherlands he is breeding quite a few KWPN mares. Non-Lipizzans would be half price. This is a black Lipizzan so rather special aside from being talented in dressage. He is also 16h, much taller than the average Lip you see here.

[maggiecat]

If a LFG contract, to ship a min of 2 doses at a time. If vet only uses one dose and you get a pregnancy, you can buy the second dose at a flat reduced fee (reduced because there will be NLFG). I don't want to have to pay a few hundred to return an unused dose(s). If I bred to him in the first place chances are I would be more than happy to buy another dose if it was good quality and my mare caught easily.

I do something like this; I ship 2 breeding doses, with a LFG. If they get the mare on one, (85% of the time they do), they can use the 2nd dose and then they owe $300 when the 2nd mare is 30 days in foal. Only one LFG guarantee per contract! I have frozen to use so this is only $550 for the contract. It is a win- win because there is always an extra straw somewhere.

[breitlingreplica]

Thanks for sharing the useful information.