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3 is the limit
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:12 AM
My 5 1/2 year old TB is coming back to work after 3 weeks of stall rest. It goes without saying he is a bit of a wild man. ;)

Yesterday and today I gave him 1 3/4 cc's of ace in the muscle before I rode. It did not made one bit of difference either day.

Today I waited an hour to be sure it kicked in. Then I lunged him because I could still feel the 'explosion' coming. After that, I was able to ride him for about 5 minutes before he bucked. :eek: It wasn't a nasty 'I don't want you on me' buck but more of a playful, 'I'm having fun' buck". But a buck is a buck and although I didn't bite the dirt today, I'd like to not have to worry about that tomorrow! :yes: He is a very good boy and this is not his normal behavior.

Administering the ACE via IV is not an option (because I don't know how to do it and neither does our groom). A barn buddy suggested squirting the ACE directly into his mouth. Anyone have experience with this?

Also, this is ACE that I recieved from the vet less than 2 years ago and it lives in our fridge. I am guessing it is still fresh?? :confused:

3

Void
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:23 AM
My horse when I first got him was a super hot OTTB, he had torn suspensory ligament and my trainer administered ACE intravenously the first ride and it was good. The second ride she told me to squirt it in his mouth. I did and nothing happened. I have since never again administered it via mouth because I don't think it works. Though in the last several years I haven't had to administer it at all on my horse *knocks on wood*

lesson junkie
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:03 AM
You just didn't give him enough. Tell your vet what happened, she'll tell you how much more to give, and how long to wait before you ride. I assume you aren't gonna do anything more than walk in an arena with good footing, and you need to control the type and amount of moving around he will do.

CBoylen
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:49 AM
It won't work as well in the mouth as in the muscle. Give him more and wait at least a half hour before you get on. Make sure that half hour he is chilling in his stall. If you are fussing with him it won't kick in. That said, if they're that fresh they will still want to play, even sedated. They're just easier to control when they do. I don't know where you are in your rehab, but if you are able to work him then put him right to work when you get on, and don't give him time to think about acting stupid.

PlantersPunch
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:57 AM
I'm in a similar situation and have been giving 2-3 ccs orally and it's been working great.

NancyM
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:01 AM
Ace is a good drug to practice hitting the jugular with, it may be your opportunity to gain some experience and a new skill. Learn where the jugular vein is, and where the carotid artery is (you need to avoid this), and how to hit the one you want. If you miss and inject outside the vein, it doesn't matter with Ace like it does with some other drugs (esp bute).

Giving the injectable drug orally requires that you give a LOT more than you would if you injected it. Oral powder doses are much higher in the active compound than the injected liquid. And with oral route, it takes a lot longer to take effect than any injected route.

woodhillsmanhattan
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:20 AM
Definatly didn't give him enough. 3/4 is barely a cocktail haha. My horse has been on stall rest since July and I am starting to walk trot under saddle now. The first time I got back on him he got 2 1/2 cc's! Of course he is 17h and a pretty big boy. My trainer/vet taught me how to give it to him in the muscle and he is down to 1 1/2 cc's now and will be down to 1 for the next few days if I get to ride him and the rain holds off.

alteringwego
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:40 AM
Give up to 6 cc in the muscle or in the vein every 3 hours is the max. Giving orally isn't going to do much and certainly not at that dosage.

Bogie
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:40 AM
As posted by CBoylen, giving ACE orally isn't as effective as giving it IM.

She also correctly pointed out that ACE won't work if your horse is already worked up (ask me how I know!). You need to give it to them before they get excited.

I'd talk to your vet about what the correct dosage would be 1 3/4 cc is probably not enough.

In my experience, if your horse really is that fresh, the ACE will take the edge off but will not make your horse completely placid and tranquil. I've used ACE to get my TB gelding get over separation anxiety when leaving him alone in his paddock and I've seen him get plenty worked up after receiving 2 cc IM.

Tha Ridge
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:04 AM
I've had very good luck giving it IM - it takes about half an hour, but I personally haven't seen very much difference between doing that and giving it IV. Of course, as someone else said, I think the real issue is that you're not giving enough.

Timex
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:12 AM
you could also try Ace pills, dissolved in water and given orally. i've had good luck with that, bringing back some of the nuttier ones. but remember, it won't make them behave as they usually would, it just takes the edge off. still expect some misbehavior, especially if they're feeling good.

Lkramer
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:59 AM
Wow! I can't believe how much Ace you guys are giving your horses! I do 1/2cc and our horses are delightful little angels. I do 2cc for bad loaders, clippers, shoers, etc and they are very out of it.

If you do IM, it takes at least 30 minutes to take effect. I recommend doing it long before you tack up.

I would certainly practice IV. Wet the crease in the neck down so you can see it easily. Place your thumb midway on the neck in the jugular crease until you see the vein pop up. Insert needle bevel down, about a 150degree angle going upwards. Aspirate. If you see blood, you are in, if not, you may have to fish for it a little bit.

JumpingBug
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:24 PM
I never use ace for clipping, not a great idea and they sweat on ace which is bad for clippers. That and most horses can still walk trot canter and buck your ass off so ace is a NO BUENO for clipping IMO

I prefer for rehabs (who may re injure themselves or my staff and I) to get dorm and ace. Works better and you can use less ace. YOU can give Dorm IM so no worries about IV shots. WE do not indiscriminately drug either, as soon as the horse shows some signs of growing a brain in rehab process we taper right off and MOST (75%) allow us to do the first 3 weeks of rehab when you just WALK with NO DRUGS, it is the dreaded trot on straight lines and having to walk for corners when the danger starts!

Speak with your vet as you will need to get the DORM from him. MAKE SURE it is always you who draws up the dorm, you must be precise and can mix it in same syringe as the ace

JumpingBug
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:28 PM
"Lkramer
I would certainly practice IV. Wet the crease in the neck down so you can see it easily. Place your thumb midway on the neck in the jugular crease until you see the vein pop up. Insert needle bevel down, about a 150degree angle going upwards. Aspirate. If you see blood, you are in, if not, you may have to fish for it a little bit."

You can also do what I suggest for my clients which is just stick needle in by itself, vein blood trickles or just forms a bubble of blood at hub of needle, you hit the artery you will have a fountain. I suggest this method while you are learning as when injecting thick materials like Legend it is not super obvious if you have hit a artery with Legend in the syringe.. as it is soooo thick. Now with ace and drugs like them it is easier to see color of blood and visually see difference

alteringwego
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:24 PM
dorm isn't my recommendation for rehab or long term usage because it slows down the guts and increases risk of colic. Ace is much safer. Or reserpine.

KnKShowmom
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:00 PM
I use ace orally and it works fine - gave a horse 2cc the other week and he was drunk as a monkey. Have backed off to 1cc and put it on his feed and it works fine.

The biggest thing with ace is time and patience - give it at least 30 mins to work and don't start doing anything, grooming, tacking, hooking up the trailer, etc., that will give your horse a clue something is getting ready to happen that they should be worried about. They're not stupid - if you are changing blankets to their turnout sheets they know its time to go out.

I give the ace, throw them a flake of hay and leave for 30 mins - peace and quiet - when I get back they are chilled and ready to hang out!

KnKShowmom
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:02 PM
dorm isn't my recommendation for rehab or long term usage because it slows down the guts and increases risk of colic. Ace is much safer. Or reserpine.

There are also some indications that reserpine slows the gut - ace is much safer, just a bit trickier to use in some situations.

lauriep
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:56 PM
There is also no hard and fast amount to give. Each horse metabolizes it differently. You'll have to find the right amount for your horse. In general, 2+ IM will get the desired effect (meaning start at minimum of 2cc). If you give it by mouth, you will need to give more and wait longer.

Peggy
Dec. 2, 2009, 04:33 PM
Nothing to add except that my vet says that some that don't respond appropriately to the injectable ace given orally will respond better to the ace tablets for some reason.

SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 2, 2009, 04:43 PM
Okay, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, because I might be, but isn't it dangerous to use Ace in male horses? I seem to remember something about penile paralysis being a potential side effect...

Vandy
Dec. 2, 2009, 05:08 PM
There is also no hard and fast amount to give. Each horse metabolizes it differently. You'll have to find the right amount for your horse. In general, 2+ IM will get the desired effect (meaning start at minimum of 2cc). If you give it by mouth, you will need to give more and wait longer.This. There are horses that get dopey on 1/2 cc and horses that blow right through 5. All depends on the horse, and you may have to experiment a bit to get the result you're after.

Yes, penile paralysis is a potential side effect...but extremely rare.

jewll27
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:51 PM
most medications have an expiration date on them too so check your bottle to see what it says. I do agree that you probably arent giving enough for a horse thats been on stall rest, but def. check your expiration date on the bottle. Even tylenol and advil have expiration dates! :)

Corky
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:44 PM
Just a note, for those that give Ace orally, are you just squirting it in their mouth? I was taught to put it under their tongue because the skin is thinnest there and the blood vessels are closest to the surface to it absorbes quickly. Maybe try that and you might use less and see it kick in faster??

"A"HunterGal
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:45 PM
I would much rather use Dorm in a horse like this once or twice and give him some good rides, and then switch to Ace. Or you could try a mix of Ace and Xylazine, sometimes that calms their heads enough to let the body relax also, but again, ONLY do the mix once or twice and then back off.

hoopoe
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:07 PM
dorm isn't my recommendation for rehab or long term usage because it slows down the guts and increases risk of colic. Ace is much safer. Or reserpine.


I wanted to reiterate what someone else said

reserpine has a well known risk of diarrhea and colic

Ace IM should show efficacy in less than 1 hour. As others have said, the dose your horse needs is highly variable. 20 mg ( 2 cc) puts my horse on his lips,

You need to talk to your vet about the dose and double check the bottle. 2 years in the refrigerator is no guarantee that it is still viable.

It is usually stored and controlled room temp in the dark

Neely
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:09 PM
Just a note, for those that give Ace orally, are you just squirting it in their mouth? I was taught to put it under their tongue because the skin is thinnest there and the blood vessels are closest to the surface to it absorbes quickly. Maybe try that and you might use less and see it kick in faster??

Yes. Or between their lower lip and gum. Just squirting it in their mouth wouldn't do much. And I read that OP gave 1 3/4cc? That should be enough. I wouldn't give much more than that personally. I would go with 1cc and if he is a quiet horse by nature, it should not take too long for him to quiet down. Give it every day for a few days in a row and you should be able to get the excess out.:yes:

HealingHeart
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:18 PM
Why don't you start with a control turnout, perhaps after a small amount of Ace or grad, to small levels., Do this for a week or more. Then perhaps Ace will not be needed for the ride. It can not be safe to ride a drugged horse and injury, silly stuff will happen in the ride or control turnout.

I can't image what that Ace is doing to a "high" body, and mind that wants to be good, but just feels he needs to get that buck out.

Vandy
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:58 PM
Frankly, I'm surprised at the number of people advocating using Rompun or Dormosedan for riding! I am quite comfortable with Ace, but personally, I'd be wary of getting on a horse that was given these other tranqs, which IME are likely to effect coordination even in small doses.

toomanyponies
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:26 PM
Ask your vet about Sedivet (sp?). Our vet recommended it for a difficult one we are rehabbing and we have had great success.

ktm2007
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:50 PM
Frankly, I'm surprised at the number of people advocating using Rompun or Dormosedan for riding! I am quite comfortable with Ace, but personally, I'd be wary of getting on a horse that was given these other tranqs, which IME are likely to effect coordination even in small doses.

Completely agree. Sounds like maybe OP should try a higher dose of Ace IM and allow horse to sit in his stall for half hour before trying to get on.

Also a note about IV Ace- ive had two horses who completely blow through ace when given IV. But IM worked great for them.

Marcella
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:59 PM
I'm not sure if someone mentioned this already...but I was prescribed Sedivet for a horse that was on rest and solo turnout in a round pen for 9 mos. for a torn suspensory. This stuff needs to go IV, but it does not carry the risks of penile paralysis that Ace does for geldings, and it does not make them sluggish or 'trippy,' just totally mellow. I was able to do 30 min. of walking and trotting with no spooking or goofy behavior that could possibly reinjure him, and it was great for walking on trails during his 'get back to work' time.

Besides, knowing how to do an IV shot is great for an emergency situation, so something useful to have for horse husbandry skills.

You could always go the old fashioned route and feed him some Vodka, too, but that seems like waste of good liquor... ;)

LovesHorses
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:08 AM
I've always been told never, ever to give a stallion ace. No one has mentioned anything about geldings, therefore I just assumed it was the ace interacting with hormones that caused paralysis? I'm intrigued and will ask the vet more.

lauriep
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:14 AM
Frankly, I'm surprised at the number of people advocating using Rompun or Dormosedan for riding! I am quite comfortable with Ace, but personally, I'd be wary of getting on a horse that was given these other tranqs, which IME are likely to effect coordination even in small doses.

Absolutely. You couldn't make me get on something that had been given Dorm.

RugBug
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:01 PM
Why don't you start with a control turnout, perhaps after a small amount of Ace or grad, to small levels., Do this for a week or more. Then perhaps Ace will not be needed for the ride. It can not be safe to ride a drugged horse and injury, silly stuff will happen in the ride or control turnout.


Most re-hab programs don't allow turn-out until well in the handwalking/riding stage of the game.

I never used Ace for handwalking my guy, but we did for the undersaddle portion for a while. Thankfully, he was a cheap date and 1 cc was perfect. He could still get silly, but it took more stimulus over a longer period of time so I could diffuse the situation before it got out of hand.

AnotherRound
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:44 PM
I'm surprised too, that anyone would ride a horse aced. Reaction times slowed, not paying attention, I would worry about getting hurt, about the horse getting really hurt. Hopefully all the OP is doing is walking.

It would be like riding in a car with someone who had been drinking. <shudder>

Vandy
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:52 PM
It would be like riding in a car with someone who had been drinking. IMO, riding an aced horse is more like riding in a car with a nervous, jumpy person who'd taken a valium or had one glass of wine to calm their nerves. Whereas riding a horse who'd been given Dorm. would be like riding with someone who'd just mainlined heroin followed by a fifth of Jack Daniels for good measure. JMHO.

Bogie
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:57 PM
It completely depends on how much you've given and how the horse metabolizes it.

I'm not suggesting that everyone go out and stick a needle into their horse -- and I'm certainly not advocating that anyone compete on a horse that's been sedated -- but most vets that I've asked about this say that when you're giving 1- 1.5 ccs you don't get a horse that's staggering around with slower reaction times or clumsiness. There are certain times and places where it may be better/safer to give a horse a bit of ACE.

Is your comment based on your experience?


I'm surprised too, that anyone would ride a horse aced. Reaction times slowed, not paying attention, I would worry about getting hurt, about the horse getting really hurt. Hopefully all the OP is doing is walking.

It would be like riding in a car with someone who had been drinking. <shudder>

RugBug
Dec. 3, 2009, 01:28 PM
I'm surprised too, that anyone would ride a horse aced. Reaction times slowed, not paying attention, I would worry about getting hurt, about the horse getting really hurt. Hopefully all the OP is doing is walking.

It would be like riding in a car with someone who had been drinking. <shudder>

When my horse is aced, he still pays attention to everything. It just doesn't bother him as much. Actually, the feel I get from him aced is similar to the feel I get from him every ride now that he's been put into pasture 24/7. He's just mellower and has a slower fuse.

luvs2ridewbs
Dec. 3, 2009, 02:34 PM
Ace also comes in a paste. You can tube it right into their mouth or put it on food. It is similar to the IM- at least in my experience. In response to those who said they wouldn't ride an aced horse, when you are rehabing, its often 30 minutes of saddle walking or a little bit of trot, not a full on work. By the time you are trotting longer and cantering, the horse won't need it.

lintesia
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:34 PM
Ask your vet about Sedivet (sp?). Our vet recommended it for a difficult one we are rehabbing and we have had great success.

I used Sedivet for several months when rehabbing my TB after a suspensory injury. I liked it so much more than Ace -- didn't make him dull, just not interested in spooking and blowing off steam (or bucking off his rider!).

The added benefit was I became very adept and comfortable giving IV injections, a very useful skill (and one which I never thought I could master). My vet supervised my first go at it and since it was then a daily event, it became easy.

Don't let the price of Sedivet scare you off -- many horses do well on 1/4 of the "recommended" dose, so it the bottle will last much longer than you expect.

3 is the limit
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:55 PM
So yesterday, we put 1 3/4 ace on his gums. Then waited about 45 minutes and then lunged him for 15 minutes in each direction!

Rode him and he was AWESOME. Big surprise. :D

Today, no ace needed. Guess he just needed a little bit to get back to work under saddle after a long stall rest.

Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion. :cool:

dressurpferd01
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:17 PM
Ace after 3 weeks in a stall???? Ha, you're joking right?? Try a hot, fit Hano mare that spent 3 MONTHS in a stall...the acrobatics she threw were astounding. I would never drug a horse to ride it. You h/j folks need to learn how to ride fractious horses instead of drugging them or lunging them to death.

ktm2007
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:32 PM
Ace after 3 weeks in a stall???? Ha, you're joking right?? Try a hot, fit Hano mare that spent 3 MONTHS in a stall...the acrobatics she threw were astounding. I would never drug a horse to ride it. You h/j folks need to learn how to ride fractious horses instead of drugging them or lunging them to death.

Oh christ. Yes us hunter jumper people need to learn how to ride.:rolleyes: What was the point of that comment?

If I have a horse that is coming off of stall rest due to an injury I want to make sure they won't pull acrobatics for THEIR sake, not mine. Which is why most vets will recommend using something such as Ace. Horse is less likely to decide it is serious play time! IF the rider were to come off and the horse ran bucking around the arena you risk having your horse re injuring himself. That would be aweful.

3 is the limit
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:39 AM
The use of ACE in my situation was mostly for my horse's benefit. He tore his iliopsoas. Don't want him doing cartwheeles (literally) now that he is out of his stall. He only needed it yesterday to keep from exploding for his first day back. Today, no meds at all.

BTW- thanks to the people who are concerned about my lack of riding skills and thinking that I drug my horse for fun/my pleasure. ;)

toomanyponies
Dec. 4, 2009, 08:35 AM
Ace after 3 weeks in a stall???? Ha, you're joking right?? Try a hot, fit Hano mare that spent 3 MONTHS in a stall...the acrobatics she threw were astounding. I would never drug a horse to ride it. You h/j folks need to learn how to ride fractious horses instead of drugging them or lunging them to death.

Not only are you rude and holier than thou, but apparently either stupid or ignorant as well. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

If you presume she was stall rested for injury, did it not cross your mind that she might reinjure herself being a crazy horse? Or throw you off despite your superior riding skills and go galloping around the property, endangering both herself and others? Or hurt someone else or another horse? Lets not forget the consideration involved to OTHERS when riding a potentially wild horse. You have to consider their safety and their horses safety as well.

Oh - and presume you never use any sort of 'drugs' on yourself either, since you are such a purist - better clean out that medicine cabinent.

Vandy
Dec. 4, 2009, 10:46 AM
Try a hot, fit Hano mare that spent 3 MONTHS in a stall...the acrobatics she threw were astounding. I hope for your mare's sake that she didn't injure herself with her astounding acrobatics while you were playing Dressage cowboy :rolleyes:

Trixie
Dec. 4, 2009, 11:33 AM
Ace after 3 weeks in a stall???? Ha, you're joking right?? Try a hot, fit Hano mare that spent 3 MONTHS in a stall...the acrobatics she threw were astounding. I would never drug a horse to ride it. You h/j folks need to learn how to ride fractious horses instead of drugging them or lunging them to death.

Oh dear, clueless much? :rolleyes:

After weeks or months in a stall, I wouldn't think there's much issue with a little chemical help to assure things go more smoothly, as opposed to putting BOTH horse and rider at risk with "acrobatics."

That really has nothing to do with knowing how to ride fractious horses or not. It's about a smooth transition so that one can bring a horse back slowly and correctly, WITHOUT acrobatics.

I know when I hurt my knee I didn't return to work full on. I built up slowly, regardless of how much energy I had. However, a horse doesn't necessarily have an understanding that one misstep could easily cause a reinjury and that therefore they need to go slow.

RugBug
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:08 PM
Ace after 3 weeks in a stall???? Ha, you're joking right?? Try a hot, fit Hano mare that spent 3 MONTHS in a stall...the acrobatics she threw were astounding. I would never drug a horse to ride it. You h/j folks need to learn how to ride fractious horses instead of drugging them or lunging them to death.

Aside from your rude comments, let's address the interesting fact that the longer the horse is on stall rest, the more they adjust to it. A fit horse on three weeks rest is often harder to deal with than a horse that has been on stall rest for a few months. The longer they are on stall rest, the more of that fitness they lose and the more their mind settles to the new program.

It's like when I broke my arm and was on 'stall rest' for many, many months. The first three weeks were the hardest. I was restless, bored, annoyed, jumping out of my skin. Six weeks into things I had a new routine and could deal with the inactivity much better.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Dec. 4, 2009, 01:00 PM
FWIW, a horse in my barn a few years back spent a couple months on stall rest for a fractured coffin bone. When she came back into work, her owner (a very competent rider, doing the 6 year old jumpers) didn't want to tranq her for the walk/trotting sets. Not sure why, but she didn't.

On the first day, she got on the horse. Horse seemed quiet, content, not overly "up". As she was walking, the horse tripped a little, and trying to get up, realized she was FREE! She went bucking across the ring, hind legs above her ears, full tilt GALLOPING away, etc. On a particularly hard buck, the owner came off, hit her head upon landing, and was out cold. Horse proceeded to jump out of the ring, gallop into the barn, slip on the concrete aisleway, literally got road rash all over one side of her, pulled a serious muscle in her hind end, and ended up on stall rest for another 8 weeks. Not to mention, rider's antares saddle was ruined in the incident. Luckily, the rider only suffered a concussion, but it could have been a lot worse.

It's hard to say what would have happened if the horse had been given a mild sedative. Perhaps it would have panned out the same, but I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't have been as bad.

Another story- Giant warmblood comes off stall rest for a tendon injury. After light turnout in the indoor ring, owner deems horse ready to go outside in a small grass paddock. Again, for whatever reason, owner doesn't think it necessary to give horse tranquilizer. Horse gets turned out, seems fine, then goes about his antics- galloping all over the place like an idiot, etc. At some point, he slips while nearly running into the fence. His legs become tangled up in the boards, and he does some serious damage to his extremities trying to get free. Right back into the stall for several weeks of rest he went...

Again, hard to imagine what would have happened had he been given something before turnout. But having witnessed two incredibly scary incidents where horses were seriously injured during rehab because they were too "up", I'll never put myself in a situation like that, no matter how many people deem it "unnecessary". It's not about how well I can ride, or how "ballsy" I am for getting on one that's been cooped up for a couple of months. "Acrobatics" are exactly what can lead to re-injury, and not taking the measures to avoid that stuff is plain out irresponsible. I'm much more likely to get injured on an idiot horse that hasn't been out for months on end than I am getting on one that's had a mild sedative.

RugBug
Dec. 4, 2009, 01:14 PM
I've been the one it happened too...and I was just handwalking a WB mare on stall rest for a suspensory. She was opinionated even at the best of times but on the stall rest that opinion and attitude was quadruple it's normal size. We were out in the arena, making laps and she decided that she should get to eat the grass over the fence to which I said no. She reared, all 17+ hands of her and struck at me. She did it a few more times and the last time she reared so high I had the very end of the lead rope to hold on to. When she came down, she spun a bit and a front leg got over the rope, ripping it out of my hand. Off she went for some galloping broncs around the arena.

3 is the limit
Dec. 4, 2009, 01:15 PM
Ace after 3 weeks in a stall???? Ha, you're joking right?? Try a hot, fit Hano mare that spent 3 MONTHS in a stall...the acrobatics she threw were astounding. I would never drug a horse to ride it. You h/j folks need to learn how to ride fractious horses instead of drugging them or lunging them to death.

This is asked in a completely serious manner and not meant to be snakry at all.

If you do not drug or lunge a horse that has been stall bound, how do you manage to get it not to hurt itself? He is great under saddle, but my guy flips out in turnout when he gets out every day (and that is when he is feeling good).

I didn't want him re-injuring himself by bucking and running around (either with me on him or in turn out). It is for his own safety that he got the ACE.

If this were your situation and your horse, what would you do? Again, I am interested in learning something better if you are able to manage a horse like this w/out ace, lunging, or getting yourself/horse hurt.

Thanks.
3

headsupheelsdown
Dec. 4, 2009, 01:22 PM
Bravo, Bravo, BRAVO!!! To all those people that corrected dressurpfed0r1. That poster was showing their complete inexperience and ignorance.

Posters such as that were the reason why I have had to take a big break from my local discussion forum, and I was just thinking how refreshing it was to come here and have a thread about this and no one has come on and been a self-righteous old hen, and there it was!

Horses can be very capricious, and are big and strong animals that sometimes seem out to injure themselves. We can manage the situation so that no one gets hurt by sedating them a little. The vets themselves will recommend it, for everyones protection.

My comment to that person? get a grip.

ktm2007
Dec. 4, 2009, 08:41 PM
On the first day, she got on the horse. Horse seemed quiet, content, not overly "up". As she was walking, the horse tripped a little, and trying to get up, realized she was FREE! She went bucking across the ring, hind legs above her ears, full tilt GALLOPING away, etc. On a particularly hard buck, the owner came off, hit her head upon landing, and was out cold. Horse proceeded to jump out of the ring, gallop into the barn, slip on the concrete aisleway, literally got road rash all over one side of her, pulled a serious muscle in her hind end, and ended up on stall rest for another 8 weeks. Not to mention, rider's antares saddle was ruined in the incident. Luckily, the rider only suffered a concussion, but it could have been a lot worse.

.

Something very similar happened to me with my mare. She had been on stall rest for 3 months due to a broken splint. I obviously didn't want to lunge her prior to riding, but was stupid enough to NOT give her a sedative. (looking back I have no idea why I didn't) She was being great actually, until something silly that would not have normally bothered her made her spook. It was then that she realized she had been on stall rest for 3 months. Bucked HARD, sent me up on her neck, and then went straight up. The top of her head hit me square in the nose and broke it. I was knocked silly (fell off). Luckily she didn't gallop around the arena. Wish I had used a sedative!

dressurpferd01
Dec. 4, 2009, 08:58 PM
Since you're the only one to respond with any sense of seriousness, I'll respond in kind. The mare I referred to earlier had some antics under saddle the first few times, I won't lie. She was on stall rest for a small partial tear of the straight sesamoidal ligament. She would be trotting around right as rain and then decide to do some rodeo crap. Nothing that was going to hurt her, and I hate coming off, so I made my mind up to stay on. This mare could get 4.5 feet in the air, all 4 feet, and then come down and rear. It was nothing but my determination to stay on that kept me on her.

The first time we turned her out, we gave her 1 cc of ace. She was fine. Turned her out the next morning, no antics.

Personally, I find it dangerous to ride a drugged horse under any circumstances. Ace, in particular, can make a hot horse hotter. I certainly wouldn't move to a more powerful tranq either. The thought of riding a horse that doesn't have all its wits about it does not appeal to me.

Also, our horses go out from 7:30AM to 4PM every day, so they're used to going out.



This is asked in a completely serious manner and not meant to be snakry at all.

If you do not drug or lunge a horse that has been stall bound, how do you manage to get it not hurt to itself? He is great under saddle, but my guy flips out in turnout when he gets out every day (and that is when he is feeling good).

I didn't want him re-injuring himself by bucking and running around (either with me on him or in turn out). It is for his own safety that he got the ACE.

If this were your situation and your horse, what would you do? Again, I am interested in learning something better if you are able to manage a horse like this w/out ace, lunging, or getting yourself/horse hurt.

Thanks.
3

bascher
Dec. 4, 2009, 09:18 PM
She was on stall rest for a small partial tear of the straight sesamoidal ligament. She would be trotting around right as rain and then decide to do some rodeo crap. Nothing that was going to hurt her, and I hate coming off, so I made my mind up to stay on. This mare could get 4.5 feet in the air, all 4 feet, and then come down and rear.

How do you know jumping up 4 feet in the air and then landing hard, then rearing again, etc, won't exacerbate an injury like a torn ligament? I personally would not want to risk my horse getting reinjured or making the injury worse just so that I could say I had the determination and drive to stay on the horse. Maybe that's not what you're saying, but that is how I'm interpreting your comments about not using Ace. Please correct me if I'm wrong :) I do see your point about not wanting to ride drugged horses, but I would rather not make an injury worse or cause a new one by trying to ride a horse who had been stallbound for a long period of time due to injury without some sort of mild sedation.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Dec. 4, 2009, 10:03 PM
I've seen a hell of a lot more people get injured riding horses that are coming back from an injury (which included stall rest, of course) without sedative than riders being injured on one that's been given ace. Hell, some of the older hunt folk I know use ace every time they go out with the pack to take the edge off. Religiously. Actually, come to think of it, I've never seen (or heard of) a rider get injured on a horse that's been given ace.

I fail to understand how you think a horse leaping 4.5 feet into the air is not risking re-injuring a tendon tear. Perhaps demonstrating that you can ride out the "acrobatics" makes the point that you can stay on, but I've yet to see how this logic demonstrates you are a better horseman than anyone else on this thread. In fact, I'd even venture to say it makes you worse.

The main concern for most people in bringing a horse back into work post injury is making sure the horse doesn't re-injure itself while it attains some level of reasonable fitness. If it were simply about "staying on", we'd all pay the pro to ride it for the first few weeks- it would certainly save money on tranq. But it's just not. It's about keeping the horse's best interest in mind.

jewll27
Dec. 5, 2009, 12:54 AM
how does Ace make a horse hotter?

WorthTheWait95
Dec. 5, 2009, 12:15 PM
how does Ace make a horse hotter?
Ace has been known to occasionally have the opposite effect on some horses, making them more excited/hot rather then calming them. I've only seen it once. The owner decided to Ace the horse AFTER it was beside itself with anxiety. I've never had that reaction when Aceing a horse while it's quiet and allowing them to chill in their stalls while it kicks in.


She would be trotting around right as rain and then decide to do some rodeo crap. Nothing that was going to hurt her, and I hate coming off, so I made my mind up to stay on. This mare could get 4.5 feet in the air, all 4 feet, and then come down and rear. It was nothing but my determination to stay on that kept me on her.

Personally, I find it dangerous to ride a drugged horse under any circumstances.


I don't understand your logic. How is riding a horse with a cc of Ace at the walk/trot more dangerous then riding a horse that is 'doing rodeo crap' and jumping 4.5ft in the air?

How is that safe for you or your horse? Especially a horse that is rehabbing. You're lucky that she didn't reinjure herself or kill you. The ones I've seen reinjure themselves during rehab work usually end up hurting themselves much worse then the original injury. It doesn't take much and any horse leaping in the air after a soft tissue injury like that can very easily reinjure themselves just by landing slightly off and sometimes just by landing period.

The one I had that reinjured himself went from a small strain to a full blown tear and is still rehabbing 1 year later. He got loose from my vet during a follow up exam and performed some acrobatics of his own for about two minutes. He landed just right coming down from a jump and that was it. Almost non weight bearing.

I'm glad you have the determination to stay on. Iif only everyone knew you just had to make up your mind to stay on! No one would ever fall off again!!! What a great solution! :rolleyes: No matter that she could have just as easily flipped over on you, landed funny after a 4.5 ft leap in the air and fall on you, etc, etc. The dangerous variables are way higher on a high rehab horse then one that is mildly sedated for rehab work with a little ace.

Trixie
Dec. 5, 2009, 01:01 PM
I don't understand your logic. How is riding a horse with a cc of Ace at the walk/trot more dangerous then riding a horse that is 'doing rodeo crap' and jumping 4.5ft in the air?

I agree.

It's not like folks are acing up their horses and putting them STRAIGHT BACK INTO WORK.

It's likely more of a slow walk, maybe a little trotting hack. Definitely nothing complicated.

I'm another that's infinitely more frightened by the idea of an injured horse jumping 4.5 ft in the air and this being totally okay with you than walking and trotting a horse with a little ace to bring it back slowly. In fact, to the point where I question your judgment such that I wouldn't let any of my horses be in your care.

magnolia73
Dec. 5, 2009, 02:39 PM
Ace after 3 weeks in a stall???? Ha, you're joking right?? Try a hot, fit Hano mare that spent 3 MONTHS in a stall...the acrobatics she threw were astounding. I would never drug a horse to ride it. You h/j folks need to learn how to ride fractious horses instead of drugging them or lunging them to death.

You might be a really good rider, but not much of a horseman. Rehabbing a horse is NOT about sticking out rodeo antics to satisfy your ego. It's about carefully rebuilding a horse's fitness systematically. If you have a horse who is ready to explode.... you need to prevent the explosion. If you are an awesome rider and can prevent it- fine. Do so. However most people will benefit from a bit of sedative to insure no explosions- something that even YOU an apparently awesome rider- did not prevent. Fact is- in some cases- a bucking fit or a rearing fit will aggravate an injury. It's not about you sticking in the tack- its about the horse limiting its movement. If the bucking and rearing was A-OK, the horse would simply be turned out.

jse
Dec. 5, 2009, 03:42 PM
I'm gonna agree with the fact that a horse should probably be given a cc of Ace in this case. Not because the person cannot ride but simply because you don't want them to hurt themselves again. Why spend all of that time rehabbing only to screw it up?

We just had a stallion jump out of his field yesterday, he's got some inflammation going on so he will be on stall rest for a couple of days. NOT looking forward to turning this guy out again! Not only did he jump out of his field, he jumped back INTO the field with the mares...so we are worried about his legs obviously. Wish us luck!!!