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dalpal
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:09 PM
During the week, I'm out alone exercising my three dogs. Although I'm fortuante enough to have access to some very big parks....most are isolated during the day and I would just feel better having something with me. Yeah, I know I have three dogs....but you never know if three dogs is going to fully deter someone...and they aren't the most vicious dogs in the world. :lol:

Suggestions? I was thinking taser..but I havent' a clue as to which one.

kookicat
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:13 PM
You'd have to learn to use whatever you got, though, or else you're as much a danger to yourself as to the person you're warding off. It could just be because I'm English, and we typically don't walk around with a gun/taser/mace, but the thought of arming myself to walk my dogs seems very odd to me.

Why not look into some good self defence classes in your area and ask what they would recommend?

dalpal
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:18 PM
I appreciate the post..and yes, while I have thought about the negatives.....I am curious to know if anyone has any recommendations. I think it would be smart to have something...godforbid, just incase.

I don't think it's odd at all.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:19 PM
You don't want to use anything that will just make an attacker mad (or madder). After you use a taser what are you going to do with the attacker, or will you run?

Smith and Wesson is your best friend (ok so now we all have glocks). Go get gun training. You don't have to carry a 45, you can get a tiny 22 that is small enough to fit in a cigarette pack, and has 8 bullets in it.

Usually dogs are a great deterrent. But a gun makes you look self assured(you project the imagine with a hidden gun) and makes you appear like you are not to be bothered. I think muggers can smell fear just like animals can.

Learn to use a gun. Carry it with you. Don't pull it out unless a mugger gets very close to you, then shoot through whatever you have it enclosed in (pocket, purse, etc) and shoot low, in the abdomen area.

To avoid being a victim, you must be vigilant and aware of your surroundings, and must exude an aura of self-assurance. Our Atlanta muggers/rapists/robbers chose distracted people, some of them at Lenox Square at noon! And remember, the white guy is as dangerous as those of other races. Too many people forget there are more Ted Bundys out there.:eek:

(I got mugged a lot in broad daylight in St Louis, never mugged in NYC or Calif or Atlanta.)

bird4416
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:19 PM
.38 Special and a concealed carry permit.

dalpal
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:29 PM
.38 Special and a concealed carry permit.

ROFL..you guys, my farrier would love you. :lol:

Something to definitley chew on......Cloudy, I can say that I am definitely always aware of my surroundings.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:33 PM
ROFL..you guys, my farrier would love you. :lol:

Something to definitley chew on......Cloudy, I can say that I am definitely always aware of my surroundings.

I spent over 20 yrs with rape victims, robbery victims, etc. The predators are roaming cities and countryside, and watching for people who don't look self-assured.

Dogs are a real deterrent, predators will pass you up for another person if you have a dog. But if the predator really wants you, best to have the gun stashed in your pocket to protect both you and the dog. Don't ever pull out a gun to threaten, only put it out to shoot.

dixiedolphin
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:01 PM
Ditto on the others. A handgun and a concealed permit.

Most importantly, once you have a handgun be sure you actually know how to use it. It does you no favors if you aren't comfortable and familiar with it. Take it to the shooting range and practice as often as you can. Generally, the folks at most ranges (both customers and staff) are extremely willing to help you and share their knowledge. Many ranges also have rental firearms you can rent for a session to try out, which is a great way to decide what feels best to you.

Personally, when it comes to handguns, I prefer Glocks. I'm putting away for a nice Glock 19 pistol which I fell in love with, which will be the one I get my concealed for within the next year. And at home, I keep a Mossberg 20ga shotgun for home defense.

But again, make sure if that's the route you go that you get well educated on it. Gun safety classes are a great resource and are available all over (often for free, depending on who is putting them on.)

dalpal
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:09 PM
Ditto on the others. A handgun and a concealed permit.

Most importantly, once you have a handgun be sure you actually know how to use it. It does you no favors if you aren't comfortable and familiar with it. Take it to the shooting range and practice as often as you can. Generally, the folks at most ranges (both customers and staff) are extremely willing to help you and share their knowledge. Many ranges also have rental firearms you can rent for a session to try out, which is a great way to decide what feels best to you.

Personally, when it comes to handguns, I prefer Glocks. I'm putting away for a nice Glock 19 pistol which I fell in love with, which will be the one I get my concealed for within the next year. And at home, I keep a Mossberg 20ga shotgun for home defense.

But again, make sure if that's the route you go that you get well educated on it. Gun safety classes are a great resource and are available all over (often for free, depending on who is putting them on.)


I'll chat with the "gun expert" farrier next visit and get some gun/permit advice.

JSwan
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:23 PM
This link may help you locate a firing range.

http://wheretoshoot.org/Find_Range/index.asp

The site itself is pretty nice, has lots of information on firearms, safety, training, etc. Folks at ranges will also help you select the right firearm, and often offer safety courses.

I prefer the .45 but many females seem to like the 9mm. Another option that may work for you is a simple revolver. Very simple to operate and clean. You can't go wrong with a .38.

Good luck and remember to practice - practice makes perfect (but I hope you never need to use it in self defense).

FlashGordon
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:29 PM
CC, great posts. I don't know how to use a firearm and obviously don't carry a gun... but what you said makes perfect sense.

Dalpal, I think it is definitely smart to consider your personal safety when you are out alone. Even with the dogs....

MistyBlue
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:16 PM
As a firearms instructor I'd suggest working on self defense tactical training first, it takes literally years to be proficient with a small pistol and a certain level of experience and comfort to be able to use on in self defense. Not to mention the legal ramifications of using one in self defense off of your own property and especially in a public park.
If the attacker isn't actually attacking badly enough to leave you marked and/or doesn;t have a weapon on them also you could be screwed.
Classes like STSD training are effective after a few short classes, do not require tons of practice and do not require the woman to have superhuman strength, a black belt or even a weapon on hand to be able to disable an attacker long enough to escape.
(BTW, if anyone has ever been 'tazed' they'd know an attacker does not hop right back up and come after you. Nerves fire wonky for some time afterwards. It disables more than long enough for a person to leave the scene...of course after snapping a cell phone photo of the asshat for id purposes)

Here's some quick advice for now:
Carry a camera cell phone with you all the time, in an easy to reach spot. Do NOT chat on it, pay attention to your surroundings at all times. If someone acts wonky or overly suspicious, snap a photo and send it immediately somewhere and make eye contact with a polite smile, then keep walking. Let them see you send that photo. Attackers don't like photo evidence around, they'll pick a new victim.

Always pay attention to your surroundings and know your area, where populated areas arem where cars are, where roads are, etc. Know your excape routes all the time. Walk with your head up, confident stride and look around and greet people with a polite but offhand type smile. make eye contact, most attackers rely not only on timid victims but also on the fact that many victims cannot positively identify them due to never looking right at them.

Teach your dogs a cute trick: it's relatively easy to teach dogs to "smile"...which looks like a snarl. Also to speak, barking dogs deter more people. If you have any quick learners, a "keep 'em" command works well, dog trained to bark like crazy at anyone you tell them to bark at, and to only stop barking if they stand still or walk away.

For personal defense a few simple moves are:
1) Bark at people, I'm not kidding. Crazy people tend to make many attackers back off. Some entirely but most will back off just long enough for you to be ready to defend yourself better...so you're not surprised when they get over the shock of you barking at them and come back at you again.
2) three gruesome facts to remember: it only takes 5 lbs of pressure to remove a human ear and only 7-8 lbs of pressure to remove a human nose and only 3 lbs of pressure to remove their bottom lip. And any of these moves will stop the vast majority of all attackers. Ear: grab lobe close to head in a fist, making sure to tighten your fist and dig your fingernails in...end with a hard and fast jerk straight up and try to jerk your hand at least a few inches above their head. Always aim for a spot well beyond your target reach so you use full force. The ear will come off, or at least most of it will.
Nose: Middle and pointer finger jammed up each nostril with hand facing towards you, at same time curl hand into fist and dig in fingernails and jerk fast and hard straight up.
Bottom lip: easiest target of the three and works on people much taller than you. Reach out and grab bottom lip with thumb curled under on the outside of the mouth/lip and other fingers curled inside lip between lip and teeth, grip like hell digging in nails and yank down hard as if you're trying to spike a football. The lip rips at corners and dangles under chin.
These three moves are for people actively trying to grab you or who have already grabbed you. All are effective and only require a small amount of strength. Children can do these effectively.
3) If the person is wearing a running suit or sweat pants or just baggy pants, reach for the testicles and grab in a tight fist, twisting and yanking down with full strength. This causes not only excrutiating pain but most men have an instant vomit reaction. A person vomitting cannot attack.
4) If someone has grabbed you and is holding on tight, you only need to pry one finger off...the pointer finger. Do not try to pry the entire hand off, grab the pointed finger with your hand and with a fast very hard movement bend it back towards the back of his hand and hold it there...there's a nerve in there that will be pinched if you bend it fast and hard enough that causes knees to buckle and also a vomit response. And you can control one finger, but most likely not the entire hand so go for the one finger.
5) a double punch to the face and head area...left hand used open hand palm forward to swipe hard and fast aiming at the upper lip (this usually results in a hit square to the base of the nose, if you aim right for the nose the head jerk the attacker uses to avoid the hit without thinking causes you to hit the bridge of the nose) and at the same time a tight fist with your right following aiming towards the adam's apple area of his throat.
6) Fall on the ground. If they can grab you become totally limp and slither to the ground. Or if they havent grabbed yoou but try then fall to the ground on your hip. Staying on your side keep your feet between him and you. While he'll probably be much stronger in arm muscles than you are, I can guarantee you that your legs are stronger than he is. Kick like a demented mule. Aim for the sides of the knees, groin and if you're wearing hard soled shoes aim for the shin bone with your heel. And scream like a banshee...swearing. People like to come swarming to where they think there's a fight.

There are other moves easily executed by anyone of any size, these can be taught with STSD (shock tactic self defense).

Daydream Believer
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:43 PM
What about pepper spray? Heck I hike the Appalachian Trail, miles from anywhere, and most hikers carry nothing at all. They laugh at us that carry bear spray which is nothing but pepper spray. Pepper spray is non lethal and does not require training or expertise to use. You can get little ones the size of cigarette lighters that spray a good distance...and it will mess up someone's day with a hit to their face.

I agree that learning some basic self defense is a good idea also. Carry a cell phone and be willing/able to call 911 for help if you feel threatened. Taking a photo is a great idea also.

I would urge strong caution with firearms and packing one. I am trained in their use also and they are just not for everyone..and they come with great responsibility to know when to use them and to do so safely for people around you. One thing you have to remember if you point a gun at someone, you have to be willing to pull the trigger and kill them if they call your bluff. If you do that, you damn well better be able to justify it to the police as self defense. It's not as clear a line as you think when there is a dead body.

gieriscm
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:54 PM
OP - what state do you live in? Self-defense and concealed carry laws vary widely by state. Carrying a handgun for self-defense is not legal in some states, and in others permits simply aren't issued unless you are wealthy or have made a sizeable contribution to the right elected official. In other states anyone with a clean criminal record can get a permit.

Personally I don't care for tasers as you have to get close to attacker for it to work. Also, it has to touch skin, and with the cold weather coming in everyone is bundled up in layers of clothing.

Pepper spray / OC / mace is better and can be easily purchased. I'd recommend Fox Labs brand as it's what many police departments use.

BasqueMom
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:06 PM
Wow, MistyBlue, those personal defense moves are something else. Had not heard of them but committing to memory. I've got a concealed permit but don't "carry" a lot, especially out of the car. Still need to take some of the
self defense lessons as bad guys don't stand still like a target giving you lots of time to take aim.

dalpal
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:48 PM
OP - what state do you live in? Self-defense and concealed carry laws vary widely by state. Carrying a handgun for self-defense is not legal in some states, and in others permits simply aren't issued unless you are wealthy or have made a sizeable contribution to the right elected official. In other states anyone with a clean criminal record can get a permit.

Personally I don't care for tasers as you have to get close to attacker for it to work. Also, it has to touch skin, and with the cold weather coming in everyone is bundled up in layers of clothing.

Pepper spray / OC / mace is better and can be easily purchased. I'd recommend Fox Labs brand as it's what many police departments use.

Thanks!

I know my farrier has a concealed weapon permit..which is why I would chat with him first. Just chewing on all the ideas thrown out.

dalpal
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:50 PM
What about pepper spray? Heck I hike the Appalachian Trail, miles from anywhere, and most hikers carry nothing at all. They laugh at us that carry bear spray which is nothing but pepper spray. Pepper spray is non lethal and does not require training or expertise to use. You can get little ones the size of cigarette lighters that spray a good distance...and it will mess up someone's day with a hit to their face.

I agree that learning some basic self defense is a good idea also. Carry a cell phone and be willing/able to call 911 for help if you feel threatened. Taking a photo is a great idea also.

I would urge strong caution with firearms and packing one. I am trained in their use also and they are just not for everyone..and they come with great responsibility to know when to use them and to do so safely for people around you. One thing you have to remember if you point a gun at someone, you have to be willing to pull the trigger and kill them if they call your bluff. If you do that, you damn well better be able to justify it to the police as self defense. It's not as clear a line as you think when there is a dead body.

Do you remember the story about the girl in GA, hiking in the mountains....they found her dog alive, but she wasn't??? I just think in this day and age, it's better to be safe than sorry. I was thinking taser...but it sounds like a spray would be more effective than a taser.

dalpal
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:00 AM
As a firearms instructor I'd suggest working on self defense tactical training first, it takes literally years to be proficient with a small pistol and a certain level of experience and comfort to be able to use on in self defense. Not to mention the legal ramifications of using one in self defense off of your own property and especially in a public park.
If the attacker isn't actually attacking badly enough to leave you marked and/or doesn;t have a weapon on them also you could be screwed.
Classes like STSD training are effective after a few short classes, do not require tons of practice and do not require the woman to have superhuman strength, a black belt or even a weapon on hand to be able to disable an attacker long enough to escape.
(BTW, if anyone has ever been 'tazed' they'd know an attacker does not hop right back up and come after you. Nerves fire wonky for some time afterwards. It disables more than long enough for a person to leave the scene...of course after snapping a cell phone photo of the asshat for id purposes)

Here's some quick advice for now:
Carry a camera cell phone with you all the time, in an easy to reach spot. Do NOT chat on it, pay attention to your surroundings at all times. If someone acts wonky or overly suspicious, snap a photo and send it immediately somewhere and make eye contact with a polite smile, then keep walking. Let them see you send that photo. Attackers don't like photo evidence around, they'll pick a new victim.

Always pay attention to your surroundings and know your area, where populated areas arem where cars are, where roads are, etc. Know your excape routes all the time. Walk with your head up, confident stride and look around and greet people with a polite but offhand type smile. make eye contact, most attackers rely not only on timid victims but also on the fact that many victims cannot positively identify them due to never looking right at them.

Teach your dogs a cute trick: it's relatively easy to teach dogs to "smile"...which looks like a snarl. Also to speak, barking dogs deter more people. If you have any quick learners, a "keep 'em" command works well, dog trained to bark like crazy at anyone you tell them to bark at, and to only stop barking if they stand still or walk away.

For personal defense a few simple moves are:
1) Bark at people, I'm not kidding. Crazy people tend to make many attackers back off. Some entirely but most will back off just long enough for you to be ready to defend yourself better...so you're not surprised when they get over the shock of you barking at them and come back at you again.
2) three gruesome facts to remember: it only takes 5 lbs of pressure to remove a human ear and only 7-8 lbs of pressure to remove a human nose and only 3 lbs of pressure to remove their bottom lip. And any of these moves will stop the vast majority of all attackers. Ear: grab lobe close to head in a fist, making sure to tighten your fist and dig your fingernails in...end with a hard and fast jerk straight up and try to jerk your hand at least a few inches above their head. Always aim for a spot well beyond your target reach so you use full force. The ear will come off, or at least most of it will.
Nose: Middle and pointer finger jammed up each nostril with hand facing towards you, at same time curl hand into fist and dig in fingernails and jerk fast and hard straight up.
Bottom lip: easiest target of the three and works on people much taller than you. Reach out and grab bottom lip with thumb curled under on the outside of the mouth/lip and other fingers curled inside lip between lip and teeth, grip like hell digging in nails and yank down hard as if you're trying to spike a football. The lip rips at corners and dangles under chin.
These three moves are for people actively trying to grab you or who have already grabbed you. All are effective and only require a small amount of strength. Children can do these effectively.
3) If the person is wearing a running suit or sweat pants or just baggy pants, reach for the testicles and grab in a tight fist, twisting and yanking down with full strength. This causes not only excrutiating pain but most men have an instant vomit reaction. A person vomitting cannot attack.
4) If someone has grabbed you and is holding on tight, you only need to pry one finger off...the pointer finger. Do not try to pry the entire hand off, grab the pointed finger with your hand and with a fast very hard movement bend it back towards the back of his hand and hold it there...there's a nerve in there that will be pinched if you bend it fast and hard enough that causes knees to buckle and also a vomit response. And you can control one finger, but most likely not the entire hand so go for the one finger.
5) a double punch to the face and head area...left hand used open hand palm forward to swipe hard and fast aiming at the upper lip (this usually results in a hit square to the base of the nose, if you aim right for the nose the head jerk the attacker uses to avoid the hit without thinking causes you to hit the bridge of the nose) and at the same time a tight fist with your right following aiming towards the adam's apple area of his throat.
6) Fall on the ground. If they can grab you become totally limp and slither to the ground. Or if they havent grabbed yoou but try then fall to the ground on your hip. Staying on your side keep your feet between him and you. While he'll probably be much stronger in arm muscles than you are, I can guarantee you that your legs are stronger than he is. Kick like a demented mule. Aim for the sides of the knees, groin and if you're wearing hard soled shoes aim for the shin bone with your heel. And scream like a banshee...swearing. People like to come swarming to where they think there's a fight.

There are other moves easily executed by anyone of any size, these can be taught with STSD (shock tactic self defense).


I need to print this out...good info.

Actually my dalmatian does smile.....My dal/pointer mix would defintiely growl at someone she felt threatened by, not sure about the other two...but she's pretty damn loyal to me.

I am always alert in my surroundings...I can pick up a strange color or movement many, many yards ahead.

Now learning how to remove body parts....that was new info..thank you.

DebbieB
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:00 AM
MistyBlue
Excellent advice!

So how do we safely practice these maneuvers?

Can I ask for volunteers? LOL

subk
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:30 AM
Self-defense and concealed carry laws vary widely by state.
Yes, but the magic words are generally, "Officer, I was afraid for my life." No matter what the question that is the answer and do not deviate.

Wonders12
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:36 AM
I completely agree with the self defense classes. If you're comfortable with it, carrying a gun is great, but people have already gone over the problems with that.

I also like mace more than a taser. I don't have to get so close.

But a good self defense class (and "reminder classes") are invaluable. All those "things" are great, but what happens if the gun backfires or mace gets clogged, or you left home without them? You'll always have your body to work with. Plus, as shown earlier, a lot of moves are surprisingly easy. You'd be amazed how easy it is to get out of being choked, etc.

I want to emphasize a GOOD self-defense class. Any class is better than none, but if you can find one that takes place weekly for a month of more, that's optimal. It will give you time to commit moves to reflex and work out different scenarios. Some classes will also go over local self-defense laws. I would start by looking into a college or rec center first, then maybe a martial arts place or gym.

Wonders12
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:37 AM
Yes, but the magic words are generally, "Officer, I was afraid for my life." No matter what the question that is the answer and do not deviate.

And asked to be checked out by a doctor. They have to take you to the hospital if you request, and it will give you time to get your head straight before being bombarded by questions.

MissCapitalSplash
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:05 AM
I am the biggest chicken in the world. To the point where I will freak myself out and run home as fast as I can.
I have taken self defense courses and it has helped, but I can still freak myself out to the point of being incapacitated. Which makes me a damn good victim, so I am reading this post with earnest.
One thing I have done is that I NEVER go anywhere without my dog, Harley. He is a black bicolor (mostly black) German import GSD. His mom was a champion schutzhund and mondio ring dog and his dad was a herding dog. He's very drivey. Pretty intimidating looking, but, like most GSD, the biggest mushball in the world. But other people don't know that. I personally have zero plans to do schutzhund with him, my focus is the obedience ring.
However, I have taught him (with the help of a positive reinforcement schutzhund trainer) to look and act incredibly insanely vicious on command. He starts with staring, elevates to growling/snarling, and then begins the barking as commonly seen by police dogs. He will do this until I give him his release word, at which point he turns around wagging his tail looking for a cookie.
Makes me feel a little better. I call him my bodyguard, because he's always got my back.

I know that I would not have the knowledge or ability to use a gun in a bad situation, because I literally shut down.

Movin Artfully
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:20 AM
Dogs also make you an available/good target. ie: you walk sparky at 6am every morning and 6pm every night...and someone can pretty easily watch you during those times and plan an attack if truly insane/scary.

Please don't focus on bulletin board advice (Bark like a dog? :confused:) and instead, like above have recommended get a self-defense class that will teach you more than you can read online.

A drive-by mugger. Eh...not likely with the dogs. Someone psychotic...dealing with a different cookie.

Also, location is a huge factor.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:46 AM
The trouble with using pepper spray as someone suggested, or a taser or self defense fighting moves, is that you can still be harmed or killed, since your attacker may be only partially or temporarily disabled...........or he just might get mad(der) and then kill you there and then.

The thing is, you do not want to be kidnapped or tied up, so you must decide whether to fight or flee in a split second at the time of attack, so plan ahead NOW. If you are trained to use a gun, and are mentally and physically prepared to use it, you simply walk on (OP walking her dogs) and then if the guy (I say guy as 99% of all attackers are men where I've lived) gets too close and is going to grab you, you shoot and yell "fire" as people will come running to see/help out in a fire, but a lot of people don't want to "get involved" with a crime.

Ask your local city or county cops/deputies/sheriffs/etc what they recommend you carry. If you are postive that you could never shoot anyone, as some have posted, then don't carry a gun since your attacker may use your own gun on you. If you learn to shoot, you simply carry it in a hanging purse that opens at the top (all of mine do) or in a small holster (good plastic clip ons available for hiking, etc.) or have a small gun in your pocket and if you have to shoot, shoot THROUGH the container. Surprise is your friend. So are dogs and running shoes.

6 foot tall cops who are taught self defense and take down courses will tell you that a mentally ill suspect and make that CAN whip 2 or 3 cops, so unless you are a kung fu expert, don't take on a mugger unarmed. You can use some of the tactics mentioned to try to get away if you are surprised by the attack and/or unarmed, but really, the best defense is a gun. If you don't like an automatic, get a nice little snub nose colt or Smith and Wesson, lots of smaller, good guns out there.

No grand jury in my state will indict you for protecting yourself from attack. Why should women not be able to go into parks alone (day or night) or not be able to walk down the street (we had people shot and killed in broad daylight at lunchtime in Atlanta by crazy people.) out of fear of being robbed, raped or killed?

ETA: A college student was killed and beheaded while walking her dog on the Appalachian Trail here 2 yrs ago. Her dog was found alive later. Same guy is charged in Florida with killing a young woman, and is suspected of killing an elderly couple in NC on the Trial. All for credit cards and money.

Movin Artfully
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:49 AM
6 foot tall cops who are taught self defense and take down courses will tell you that a mentally ill suspect and whip 2 or 3 cops,

Well said...this is the scary part.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:56 AM
Well said...this is the scary part.

oops not well said, it should read "can whip two or three cops."

I just hope that cothers won't be faced with decisions of whether to fight or flee...........but as my gun owning, crack shot father always said, better to be shot in the back while running than to be tied up and tortured before being killed. He drilled that into my head when I was a small child. Also gun safety, don't point gun or even show it unless you are going to shoot someone. (Plus, it's not like TV, most people when shooting in real life are pumped up and scared, and most bullets are sprayed all over creation. Gotta be a good shot to nail someone who is running 20 ft or so away from you.)

bird4416
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:35 AM
ETA: A college student was killed and beheaded while walking her dog on the Appalachian Trail here 2 yrs ago. Her dog was found alive later. Same guy is charged in Florida with killing a young woman, and is suspected of killing an elderly couple in NC on the Trial. All for credit cards and money.


They found her body at my favorite place to trail ride. I usually carry pepper spray when I trail ride and I never ride alone. I have a concealed carry permit but don't carry when riding. I would only have one shot as my horse would be half way to California by the time I regain conciousness from being thrown off of him.

Pepper spray has its draw backs as you don't want it to blow back in your face if the wind conditions aren't in your favor.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:07 AM
Do you remember the story about the girl in GA, hiking in the mountains....they found her dog alive, but she wasn't??? I just think in this day and age, it's better to be safe than sorry. I was thinking taser...but it sounds like a spray would be more effective than a taser.

Stupid stuff happens everywhere but hiking in the mountains alone is probably still way safer than walking through a shopping center parking lot!

If pepper spray can stop a bear, you bet it will stop a person!

Woodland
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:11 AM
we typically don't walk around with a gun/taser/mace, but the thought of arming myself to walk my dogs seems very odd to me.


I am from Illinois and the same goes for me and everyone i know. How weird and paranoid do you have to be to think you need a freaking GUN to walk your dogs! Where the H do you live? Walk somewhere that is safer for pete's sake people GET A GRIP!!!!!!

Daydream Believer
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:19 AM
I just wanted to add also that millions of people hike on the Appalachian Trail in a year. Serious hikers, thru hikers or section hikers (like me) who are backpacking 30-40 lbs will not bother with a firearm. Also, firearms are prohibited in National Parks. The odds are so incredibly low that you will need them and with that many people out there on the trail with you, you are quite safe in the company of other hikers. I've never met a friendlier bunch of folks in my life than AT hikers.

Yes there have been murders and crimes out there and they do get a lot of publicity; but if you compare the sheer numbers of crimes in a city or a park or a parking lot somewhere to that, the trails in the woods are way way safer. We've met women hiking alone out on the trail also to include one lady who's done over a 1000 miles by herself. When I asked her if she was afraid to be alone, she said she loved being alone and rarely did she camp anywhere without other folks around...near AT shelters or other tent areas. On our first trip to N. Ga in Oct, the woods were mobbed with hikers, families camping and boy scouts.

I guess I'm saying that you should just keep it in perspective. The woods, National and State Parks are much safer in comparison to any suburban or urban area. Take reasonable precautions and go enjoy yourself.

dalpal
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:25 AM
Stupid stuff happens everywhere but hiking in the mountains alone is probably still way safer than walking through a shopping center parking lot!

If pepper spray can stop a bear, you bet it will stop a person!

That was my point. You said that hiker laugh at you for carrying bear spray. I think in this day and age, anyone hiking alone in the mountains should have some sort of self defense.

When women who go out jogging, walking, etc alone AND ARE attacked....what is the first thing out of most people's mouth..."Well, she shouldn't have been out alone" Sad, but true.

I didn't realize that he had beheaded her.....I just remember them finding her dog in a supermarket parking lot. Guess he had compassion for her dog, just not any for a human. :no:

gieriscm
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:46 AM
Also, firearms are prohibited in National Parks.

The law is changing next February. (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/05/national_parks_gun_law_take_ef.html?hpid=moreheadl ines)

RacetrackReject
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:56 AM
I love all of the people that think everyone is paranoid for thinking that someone would hurt them. I'm sure most of the people abducted over the years didn't think they would ever be taken either. Society is going to hell in a handbasket, not to mention the economy and that fact that it is the holidays (higher crime rate here during holidays). Putting your head in the sand and saying it doesn't happen won't make it true.

I was reading a website for a local missing girl the other day and it stated that in Texas alone over 70,000 people are reported missing/abducted each year.

Self defense classes do work and do help. My boyfriend lives in Edmonton where they had a serial rapist for quite a long time. He was caught recently when the latest girl he attacked took him down and stood over him kicking him repeatedly while screaming for someone to come help her. Luckily, 2 officers were near the jogging trail and heard her and came to help her.

AZ Native
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:34 AM
.38 Special and a concealed carry permit.

Excellent advice ! Except we prefer to drop 'em not piss them off ;). We like the 44 mag.:cool:

MistyBlue, wonderful post and great advice !

Daydream Believer
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:20 PM
I love all of the people that think everyone is paranoid for thinking that someone would hurt them. I'm sure most of the people abducted over the years didn't think they would ever be taken either.

I don't think anyone has suggested that the OP is paranoid to want a method of self defense but perhaps that it might be overkill (pun intended) to pack a firearm to walk the dogs in a park?

I simply want to point out that while you can get mugged, raped or murdered anywhere in the world, your odds are way greater in a heavily populated area like a city versus on some mountaintop in Georgia or walking the dogs in a nice park in broad daylight. Yes, anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time, shit happens, and you have to exercise some discretion at where you chose to go and when and what risks you are willing to take, but I'd hike the 2200 miles of the Appalachian Trail alone and unarmed before I'd walk through a bad neighborhood in any city.

I do think many of you are overreacting to the level of danger involved in walking a couple of dogs in a park. She's not going into Harlem or the Bronx at night. I most vehemently disagree with anyone who is afraid of other people carrying a firearm as their first line of defense. Dead or maimed is forever and one done, you can't take it back. Yes cops carry guns but they are highly trained in their use and even they make mistakes. They also work in a job that puts them in harms way much more often...big difference again.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:22 PM
The law is changing next February. (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/05/national_parks_gun_law_take_ef.html?hpid=moreheadl ines)

I'm sorry to hear that.

trubandloki
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:23 PM
MB thank you for the very descriptive and informative post!

It is great to have someone so knowledgeable as you around.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:29 PM
They found her body at my favorite place to trail ride. I usually carry pepper spray when I trail ride and I never ride alone. I have a concealed carry permit but don't carry when riding. I would only have one shot as my horse would be half way to California by the time I regain conciousness from being thrown off of him.

Pepper spray has its draw backs as you don't want it to blow back in your face if the wind conditions aren't in your favor.

Yes we tested it out when it first came out, as my father bought some, we tried it out in the wind by the river in front of house and pepper spray failed the test. I always carried a gun when my aussie and my best friend and I used to walk the Appalachian Trail many years ago when I lived in Atlanta. The gun was to keep bears away from my dog, and to keep guys away from us women.

Fighting can work sometimes. If an attacker jumps out of the bushes and grabs you, you might get away by gouging an eye, grabbing genitals, etc. You might also get hurt worse if you fight rather than play dead (faux faint) and then flee. One of my rape victims was literally chewed on her face by a rapist in Atlanta when she fought....she had permanent facial scars. Fortunately the guy in the apt next door called the cops and 2 of my cops saved her life. (My judge chronicled that trial in Reader's Digest.)

My theory is since my horses were stabled by the gun club and across from the gun club and with shooters on the actual barnyard for 5 yrs or so, that I could dismount and shoot anyone while holding onto my horse. Of course I think my horse could outrun a mugger, well he's a wb, so he could maybe outjump a mugger. You don't have to be dead eye dick to hit someone from 3 ft, just aim for the abdomen and you'll hit something that should stop the guy.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:43 PM
The reason less people are killed in the north GA mountains than in Atlanta is.......because there are less people in the mountains. Statistics don't mean a thing if you are the victim. (One highly publicized murder involved 2 lesbians raped and murdered by a man, another was a male/female couple murdered on the Trail by a man, I think both of those were in NC or Tenn. or even further north.)
Right now a woman probation officer jogger is "missing" in, darn it, I forget the rural small populated county in North GA. She was out jogging, and called her boyfriend on her cell because of a strange car. She has been missing for months. A deer hunter may fine her body some day. (She lived there, she was jogging from one relative's house to her own home, a short distance, etc., and she's vanished.)

We did not know about the deaths on trails in Florida and NC till the killer in GA was arrested. Oops, guess what? Deaths aren't publicized because tourists might not want to walk the Trail (and the national forest in FL) Just like the rape statistics are underreported in major cities so people won't worry. I worked inside the system for many decades. You are not paranoid if you are worried about your safety in the countryside or in the city.

Of course you don't want to strap on 2 guns as one guy in my office did after he was laid out on a convenience store floor on a Sunday morning after church during an armed robbery. Oh wait, maybe he's not so paranoid. (He's a federal magistrate now and still worried that he and his family could have been murdered.)

The idea is to "be prepared" and be alert and be ready IF you are attacked. A huge percentage of the cops in Atlanta have never fired their guns in the line of duty. Some of the state police and state patrol have been murdered in rural areas of my state because they were not alert, even thought they were armed. I've seen the videos of some of these killings of state patrolmen.

Carrying a gun does not mean you must drill everyone who approaches you. I've never had to shoot anyone, even in the projects at night. But on rural roads when I went to school in VA and was driving home alone for the holidays, it was really nice to have a gun in my little sports car when white guys tried to force me off the road, long before cell phones were around.

Women don't need to be victims if they arm themselves.

MistyBlue
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:52 PM
Please don't focus on bulletin board advice (Bark like a dog? :confused:) and instead, like above have recommended get a self-defense class that will teach you more than you can read online.

Very good advice in getting hands on instruction.
PLease make sure to get instruction from a certified defense specialist who uses a hit suit for teaching, sparring and practicing.
The best place to look for certified self defense specialists is calling your local PD.
As a previously certified LOCK UP and current STSD defense specialist I can't recommend more strongly to please use certified trainers with hit suits.
STSD isn't available online but our LOCK UP training has become available to the public and civilians now. Check the website for locations and information for serious advanced defense training that anyone can use:
http://www.policecombat.com/subpage.php?did=18

(fwiw, barking is taught in both STSD and police combat training courses ;) )

(as is urinating...don't laugh, it can work pretty well. :P)

danceronice
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:22 PM
Repeating the advice above--if you get a gun, get training (my state is shall-issue for concealed but does require you get a training course first) and never draw unless you are going to fire. NEVER use it as a threat, pull and shoot, or as mentioned shoot THROUGH what you're carrying.

All other things being equal I would want a Colt 1911 .45 semi-auto, now that I can actually fire it (except the Army model in particular has a truly staggering number of safeties) simply because of the stopping power--it's a no-****ing-around weapon and you don't even have to hit the traditional "kill zone" on the body to put your target on the ground. An arm shot can knock them down. (Also it's heavy enough I could probably kill someone with one skull blow.)

I also recall in particular, from one of those 'worst case scenario' shows--the host was talking about disarming hijackers (don't ask) but he emphasized--people have to breathe. If you punch in the neck, grab and crush, or otherwise attack the neck, when they can't breathe they can't do anything else. (I also recall that, in addition that ear and nose thing, it's possible to rip out the larynx with your fingers--grab that 'box' in the neck and crush/pull. At bare minimum they're not going to do anything but choke for a while.) And in the self-defense class I had at police camp they said go for the midline--eyes, nose, neck, solar plexus, abdomen, groin, instep--inflict as much pain as possible and remember you are fighting for your life.

DebbieB
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:40 PM
I bet the same people who are poo-pooing carrying the preventative measures/weapons against assualt and abduction because of the low statistical probablity of assault - wear their seat belt in the car and wear a helmet when they ride.

A good quality expandable baton can also be a good defensive weapon.

dalpal
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:47 PM
I am from Illinois and the same goes for me and everyone i know. How weird and paranoid do you have to be to think you need a freaking GUN to walk your dogs! Where the H do you live? Walk somewhere that is safer for pete's sake people GET A GRIP!!!!!!

Oh good grief....what does your location have to do with this question?

dalpal
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:49 PM
I love all of the people that think everyone is paranoid for thinking that someone would hurt them. I'm sure most of the people abducted over the years didn't think they would ever be taken either. Society is going to hell in a handbasket, not to mention the economy and that fact that it is the holidays (higher crime rate here during holidays). Putting your head in the sand and saying it doesn't happen won't make it true.

I was reading a website for a local missing girl the other day and it stated that in Texas alone over 70,000 people are reported missing/abducted each year.

Self defense classes do work and do help. My boyfriend lives in Edmonton where they had a serial rapist for quite a long time. He was caught recently when the latest girl he attacked took him down and stood over him kicking him repeatedly while screaming for someone to come help her. Luckily, 2 officers were near the jogging trail and heard her and came to help her.

THANK YOU! Exactly.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:52 PM
I had a victim who was raped in church on Christmas morning, the minister came to her rescue. So just where is this safe place? Police cars get stolen from police lots in small towns as well as in big cities. And 4 cops were slaughtered in the PNW the other day while they sat in a coffee shop in the suburbs. :eek:

People who think they are safe shouldn't be worried by this thread. Those of us who board our horses in "Methingham County" as it is called, have to travel roadways with rural whites on meth.

dalpal
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:58 PM
The reason less people are killed in the north GA mountains than in Atlanta is.......because there are less people in the mountains. Statistics don't mean a thing if you are the victim. (One highly publicized murder involved 2 lesbians raped and murdered by a man, another was a male/female couple murdered on the Trail by a man, I think both of those were in NC or Tenn. or even further north.)
Right now a woman probation officer jogger is "missing" in, darn it, I forget the rural small populated county in North GA. She was out jogging, and called her boyfriend on her cell because of a strange car. She has been missing for months. A deer hunter may fine her body some day. (She lived there, she was jogging from one relative's house to her own home, a short distance, etc., and she's vanished.)

We did not know about the deaths on trails in Florida and NC till the killer in GA was arrested. Oops, guess what? Deaths aren't publicized because tourists might not want to walk the Trail (and the national forest in FL) Just like the rape statistics are underreported in major cities so people won't worry. I worked inside the system for many decades. You are not paranoid if you are worried about your safety in the countryside or in the city.

Of course you don't want to strap on 2 guns as one guy in my office did after he was laid out on a convenience store floor on a Sunday morning after church during an armed robbery. Oh wait, maybe he's not so paranoid. (He's a federal magistrate now and still worried that he and his family could have been murdered.)

The idea is to "be prepared" and be alert and be ready IF you are attacked. A huge percentage of the cops in Atlanta have never fired their guns in the line of duty. Some of the state police and state patrol have been murdered in rural areas of my state because they were not alert, even thought they were armed. I've seen the videos of some of these killings of state patrolmen.

Carrying a gun does not mean you must drill everyone who approaches you. I've never had to shoot anyone, even in the projects at night. But on rural roads when I went to school in VA and was driving home alone for the holidays, it was really nice to have a gun in my little sports car when white guys tried to force me off the road, long before cell phones were around.

Women don't need to be victims if they arm themselves.

Great post. My farrier carries a concealed weapon, he certainly doesn't go places that he is at "high risk" of having to use it. Most people who go through the process of LEGALLY obtaining a fire arm and learn how to properly use it..are not the ones who are a danger to society..they only have them for protection.

It is sad to me to hear women on this board, telling other women to "GET A GRIP" because they want to explore self defense options. Call me crazy, but I like to be proactive, not reactive.

KristiKGC
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:59 PM
I agree that having a gun and knowing how to use it is probably the most effective form of protection.

However, regarding teaching the dogs to speak, I have to slightly disagee. I have 3 big, scary dogs. When I was teaching them to bark on command, I was using the 'speak' command. I realized that wasn't going to be intimidating in the least! It looked like what it was, a cute trick, and at the same time, made my scary dogs look less scary! So I switched the command to 'get him'... MUCH more effective!!! :yes::yes::yes: Now people don't think the trick is so cute!

I am definitely going to commit MBs advice to memory though!

dalpal
Dec. 2, 2009, 04:00 PM
Repeating the advice above--if you get a gun, get training (my state is shall-issue for concealed but does require you get a training course first) and never draw unless you are going to fire. NEVER use it as a threat, pull and shoot, or as mentioned shoot THROUGH what you're carrying.

All other things being equal I would want a Colt 1911 .45 semi-auto, now that I can actually fire it (except the Army model in particular has a truly staggering number of safeties) simply because of the stopping power--it's a no-****ing-around weapon and you don't even have to hit the traditional "kill zone" on the body to put your target on the ground. An arm shot can knock them down. (Also it's heavy enough I could probably kill someone with one skull blow.)

I also recall in particular, from one of those 'worst case scenario' shows--the host was talking about disarming hijackers (don't ask) but he emphasized--people have to breathe. If you punch in the neck, grab and crush, or otherwise attack the neck, when they can't breathe they can't do anything else. (I also recall that, in addition that ear and nose thing, it's possible to rip out the larynx with your fingers--grab that 'box' in the neck and crush/pull. At bare minimum they're not going to do anything but choke for a while.) And in the self-defense class I had at police camp they said go for the midline--eyes, nose, neck, solar plexus, abdomen, groin, instep--inflict as much pain as possible and remember you are fighting for your life.

Oh if I ever went the gun route, I'd definitely get training. No way would I ever be comfortable carrying something like that without proper training.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 2, 2009, 05:44 PM
The reason less people are killed in the north GA mountains than in Atlanta is.......because there are less people in the mountains.

No kidding. I'd never have figured that out.;) Do you suppose it might have to do with the absence of drug dealers, drug addicts and violent criminals that tend to concentrate in population centers also? :yes:


Women don't need to be victims if they arm themselves.

I am not saying to not "arm" yourself or be prepared. There are other weapons than guns that are not lethal. It sounds like in your world you'd recommend to everyone to pack a concealed firearm...thanks...but I'll pass. That's nothing but anarchy. :no:

Keep in mind that I've been in combat in the military...got that badge. I was in Panama City right behind the 82nd Airborne when snipers were taking shots at us and mortars were landing in our compound. I slept with a loaded M-16 beside me. I'm fully aware of what being in fear for your life means and you are not talking to a pacifist nor someone who has not "been there," but I do NOT believe the situation in our country is to the point that someone needs to pack a firearm to safely walk the dogs in a public park in broad daylight. Sorry, I just do not think recommending to someone in the OP's situation to pack a concealed firearm, a deadly weapon, makes any sense at all. JMO.

To the OP, if you are scared of being assaulted while walking your dogs, get some pepper spray. I'm not saying not to protect yourself but carrying a firearm to walk your dogs is absurd unless you plan to do it at night in a bad neighborhood.

sickofcollege
Dec. 2, 2009, 06:23 PM
I agree that having a gun and knowing how to use it is probably the most effective form of protection.

However, regarding teaching the dogs to speak, I have to slightly disagee. I have 3 big, scary dogs. When I was teaching them to bark on command, I was using the 'speak' command. I realized that wasn't going to be intimidating in the least! It looked like what it was, a cute trick, and at the same time, made my scary dogs look less scary! So I switched the command to 'get him'... MUCH more effective!!! :yes::yes::yes: Now people don't think the trick is so cute!

I am definitely going to commit MBs advice to memory though!

The word I use is "who's that?" It works every single time.

Ben and Me
Dec. 2, 2009, 06:30 PM
Dalpal, from your previous posts, I think we are from the same area. I bet I know what park you're talking about. This summer, my lab and I went on some walks in that park as well. I had been out there before, but never alone, and usually on the weekends when it was crowded. It was creepy. Maybe I watch too much Law and Order, but any time I'm alone, out in the woods, I get nervous. Plus, my dog is more of a "wag and flirt" with any passerby than a ferocious attack dog! Fortunately, she is almost black and not always very well behaved (she loves to jump on people if I stop to talk to them while walking) so I hope that might deter someone.

I certainly wouldn't mess with someone with a Dalmatian, but unfortunately they don't have that reputation with the wider public. ;)

I think bear spray might be your best bet, honestly. It has a huge range. There are also areas of the park that are better-travelled...or you could always try to find a walking buddy thru a local obedience/agility/whatever training class, vet's office, etc. I always felt much safer when I went on those same walks with my brother or cousin.

I also bet that our local state university has a PE self defense class if you wanted to go that route. The local community college might as well.

ETA: PE 239 Self Defense UNITS: 1 - Offered in Fall and Spring
Basic self defense skills and techniques. Skills covered include falls, kicks, punches, and escapes; plus psychology of physical and sexual assault. Physical contact between students and instructor.

cutemudhorse
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:13 PM
What an informative post --- not I know how to remove ears, lips and noses! Thanks, MistyBlue for that info. . . just in case. . .

But I have had a concealed weapons permit for years. I used to travel alone a lot, and lived alone comfortably for years. :) One shouldn't be paranoid, but I agree with the posters who realize that bad things do happen in places where you might not expect it. It's better to be prepared, like the self defense classes mentioned. If you do choose to carry a gun definately only do so if you learn the proper safety procedures and will be comfortable with it. Practice, and get what you are comfortable with. As noted by several posters, they don't sound comfortable with the idea so they shouldn't carry. And as mentioned, only show it (or not) if you need to use it, don't threaten anyone with it.

When I got my first handgun years ago we went over different calibers, pros and con, and comfortable concealment weapons. I knew I wanted more than a .22 as that would only piss off a drugged out attacker. I decided a revolver was a good first gun; a Taurus .38, with hollow points as a carry round for a bit more oomph. Now I am hoping to trade my S & W LadySmith 9 mm for a Glock 27 which is a .40 caliber. And if you watch (or are one!) COPS you do see drugged out guys needing to be taken down by more than one cop.

I rarely carry when I ride but also like it for biking. I live in a very rural area where most people are nice but you never know. I don't ever expect to use it, I hope, but you never know. I actually got my .38 out twice in my apartment years ago, once thinking I had a break-in and another time when someone came to the door at some ungodly hour. If he had pushed his way in through the door chain he would have met Mr .38.

And yeah you better know 'something' about when to shoot. . . if the guy gets scared and runs off, a bullet hole in his back is NOT what the investigating officer wants to see!! :lol: You'll be off to your county Hilton at least!

mustangtrailrider
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:30 PM
if you are scared of being assaulted while walking your dogs, get some pepper spray. I'm not saying not to protect yourself but carrying a firearm to walk your dogs is absurd unless you plan to do it at night in a bad neighborhood.

I live in the middle of the sticks. I am now carrying a firearm after some houses were set fire last week just across the road from me. I do carry it when I go to feed the horses, walk the dogs, and do chores. We also have stray dogs, coyotes, etc running around out here.

Am I paranoid? You bet. Am I careful? Yes. Am I prepared to used it? You can guarantee it!

I do have my cwp and I love my glock. I have it on me in case I need it. I do have it when I walk the dogs. Who knows what can happen. There are a bunch of sick bastards out here. I don't want to be there next victim. We often have 4 wheelers out on the back property trespassing at night. I won't take any chances.

My glock is my friend and someone's worst enemy.

KentuckyTBs
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:36 PM
Very informative thread! I have to shake my head at the people who are saying to "Get A Grip" and that no one needs to worry about this stuff... I'm sorry, but abductions, rapes, and murders happen EVERYWHERE- not just big cities, not just in the " 'hood ", not just out in the woods... they happen EVERYWHERE. They happen with complete strangers... AND with people you may know and not think they would ever do something like that...

This is a scary world and it just gets scarier by the day... People are crazy. Plain and simple. I want to learn how to handle firearms so I can get myself a gun one day. But it's a catch 22 with me... I have a brand new baby to worry about as well...

I'm sorry, IMHO, pepper spray is not going to do a d*** thing to STOP an attacker... slow them down, maybe. piss them off, more than likely. stop them? no. If someone is insane enough to attack/abduct/rape/murder someone... pepper spray won't stop them.

I have a Chow and a Pit Bull. Both are scaredy cats. Neither would do anything but hide behind me... Well, my Pit Bull *might* try to protect me if he knew I was in serious trouble... but I highly doubt it. He's a wimp (he was a severe abuse case before I got him) Once I have some money saved up and buy my own house, I plan on purchasing one of the specially bred and trained gaurd/protection dogs. But a dog can be killed if someone wants to get to the human... so one should not rely on a dog as protection. JMHO.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:54 PM
Am I paranoid? You bet. Am I careful? Yes. Am I prepared to used it? You can guarantee it!

My glock is my friend and someone's worst enemy.

Remind me not to stop at your house to ask directions. :eek: Honestly I'm more scared of all the paranoid people packing concealed weapons than I am any potential criminal.

Lots of people die by accident with weapons too...just please please please remember that packing a deadly weapon places huge responsibility on the bearer for the safety of innocent people. Bullets go a long ways before stopping, they go through windows and sometimes even walls, they ricochet, and if you miss what you are aiming at, there is often something behind your target that you don't want to hit.

Sorry to sound like the bad guy in this thread but honestly I am shocked at how many people think deadly force is the ideal form of protection for every day life...around the farm, walking the dogs, etc.... I'm not sure where you all live but I'm out in the sticks too and have never felt even slightly threatened by human or animal here.

Whatever...sorry to preach caution and the use of non lethal force for personal protection. I'm clearly nowhere near as paranoid as many of you. Maybe it's because I've actually been shot at? :lol:

Ben and Me
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:11 PM
I beg to differ re: pepper spray. I had a friend in undergrad who was randomly "jumped" by some local teenagers while walking to a bus stop to catch the late-night bus home after a party. This occurred in rural SW Virginia. They got him in the eyes with pepper spray. He had to spend the night in the hospital.

The scariest thing (to me) about pepper spray is accidentally shooting yourself. They make little holsters though that should help with that.

subk
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:14 PM
And in the self-defense class I had at police camp they said go for the midline--eyes, nose, neck, solar plexus, abdomen, groin, instep--inflict as much pain as possible and remember you are fighting for your life.
Oh please, someone quick help me: What was the little ditty "Gracie Hart"/Sandra Bullock did for her self defense "talent" routine in the Ms. United States pageant?!!

I'm not going to be able sleep if I can't figure it out...

MistyBlue
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:32 PM
Just remember to SING.
Solar plexus, instep, nose and groin. :D

Now you can go to sleep, LOL!
I know what it's like to not be able to remember something like that and have it drive you nuts though. :winkgrin:

cssutton
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:35 PM
MistyBlue
Excellent advice!

So how do we safely practice these maneuvers?

Can I ask for volunteers? LOL

Well, if you have a husband like Tiger Woods, you could practice at home!!!

CSSJR

mustangtrailrider
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:38 PM
We have had enough trouble out here Daydream Believer! We have caught people on our property scoping it out at 2 am. We have heard 4 wheelers at all hours of the night. We have large packs of wild dogs running amok. We have had people stop "asking" for directions. We have had people show up lost. We have had the friendly mexicans ask to have their van jumped.

Not one time have we fired our gun on humans! The person scoping out property almost got shot. My husband didn't want to. My husband asked the guy to leave and he finally did. After we called the sherriff's dept, we learned that the men were armed and dangerous and were wanted for breaking and entering! Yeah, we are a little paranoid.

We have shot the errant stray dog.

We know our property. We know our neighbors. We know who belongs here and who doesn't. We don't shoot just to shoot. We practice regularly. We know our guns well.

I would rather be armed and ready to use it than not prepared at all. I don't tell others to carry a gun. If someone asks me to teach them, I ask them if they are prepared to kill someone if necessary? They usually waffle in their answer. I said don't get a gun!

I have never felt unsafe on my property. I know self defense. I would like to be prepared.

MistyBlue
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:43 PM
However, regarding teaching the dogs to speak, I have to slightly disagee. I have 3 big, scary dogs. When I was teaching them to bark on command, I was using the 'speak' command. I realized that wasn't going to be intimidating in the least! It looked like what it was, a cute trick, and at the same time, made my scary dogs look less scary!

LOL...and agreed Kristi. Do not teach your canine buddy with cutesy names for commands. Not speak and definitely not smile. :winkgrin:
My key words are "watch" for the growl/smile. "Hold him" for the barking and circling. "Take him" for grabbing on.
In reality "watch" is a game, "hold him" is another game where he barks like crazy and circles a person to keep the person in one place. As long as the person stands still my dog stops and sits and goes back to 'smiling.' If the person moves he goes back to barking and circling. He does it with my daughters, the cat, squirrels is he can catch up to them, my husband...the game ends with him wagging, wiggling and giving "kisses" which are rather sloppy. Or grabbing a toy and dropping it at your feet waiting for you to throw it. "Take him" is a game of tug of war used with sleeves or pants legs.
In reality my dog is a huge mush and a very subservient omega dog. He likes nothing more than pleasing people or sucking up, LOL! But he's been super easy to train so we've added all sorts of fun tricks. And being a GSD helps with the "uh oh" factor for strangers. His job is to seem intimidating, but his personality is anything but intimidating. :lol: It's his looks, size and his "tricks" that look scary.
BTW, the Take Him game works very well for pantsing my husband when he's in his pajamas or sweats. :lol: :eek: :lol:

cssutton
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:52 PM
They found her body at my favorite place to trail ride. I usually carry pepper spray when I trail ride and I never ride alone. I have a concealed carry permit but don't carry when riding. I would only have one shot as my horse would be half way to California by the time I regain conciousness from being thrown off of him.

Pepper spray has its draw backs as you don't want it to blow back in your face if the wind conditions aren't in your favor.


I have shot off of many horses and only had one that absolutely would not allow it.

And one shot probably would be enough anyway.

But if you shoot several times over a period of time, your horse will allow it as long as you don't aim so the muzzle blast is really close to his ears. For instance, don't shoot directly over his hears or just to the right or left of his head.

I remember the old cavalry manuals used to advise that you put the gun shy horse in his stall, feed him and have a target practice while he eats. According to the manual, a few meals and he associates it with the grain and will be OK with it.

I would definitely recommend a revolver while riding as the double action on a revolver takes more trigger pull. Most autos are pretty light on the trigger and if the horse jumps around you are very likely to clench your hand and fire an accidental round, which could strike the horse or your leg.

I once saw a lady whip get dumped by a dirty shoulder ducking horse while aiming and firing rat shot at a hound that was running a deer.

As she hit the ground, we heard the pistol fire and I have to tell you that we were scared to death until she stood up.

Not to scare anyone away from carrying one, but to make the point that you need to choose the proper pistol.

You can still purchase a single action revolver which must be cocked for every shot. That would be much safer, but all whips carry a double action .22 and I have not heard of anyone getting hurt.

Just something to consider.

CSSJR

Protect your privacy. Replace Google with IXQUICK at www.ixquick.com.


If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor's right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

FlashGordon
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:03 PM
As a firearms instructor I'd suggest working on self defense tactical training first, it takes literally years to be proficient with a small pistol and a certain level of experience and comfort to be able to use on in self defense. Not to mention the legal ramifications of using one in self defense off of your own property and especially in a public park.
If the attacker isn't actually attacking badly enough to leave you marked and/or doesn;t have a weapon on them also you could be screwed.
Classes like STSD training are effective after a few short classes, do not require tons of practice and do not require the woman to have superhuman strength, a black belt or even a weapon on hand to be able to disable an attacker long enough to escape............

...............

.............to the ground. Or if they havent grabbed yoou but try then fall to the ground on your hip. Staying on your side keep your feet between him and you. While he'll probably be much stronger in arm muscles than you are, I can guarantee you that your legs are stronger than he is. Kick like a demented mule. Aim for the sides of the knees, groin and if you're wearing hard soled shoes aim for the shin bone with your heel. And scream like a banshee...swearing. People like to come swarming to where they think there's a fight.

There are other moves easily executed by anyone of any size, these can be taught with STSD (shock tactic self defense).

Damn MB I'm never gonna mess with you.

Seriously though thanks for sharing the tips.

We had a serial rapist/murderer in our town that attacked women off and on for 2 decades. He took a hiatus, and then resurfaced on a bike path I frequented daily, 1.5 miles from my house and 3 miles from my barn. They caught him eventually-- thank goodness-- but it was a tense year in our village.

We live in "small town america" and you never think that stuff happens here, but it was a rude awakening....

cssutton
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:19 PM
No kidding. I'd never have figured that out.;) Do you suppose it might have to do with the absence of drug dealers, drug addicts and violent criminals that tend to concentrate in population centers also? :yes:



I am not saying to not "arm" yourself or be prepared. There are other weapons than guns that are not lethal. It sounds like in your world you'd recommend to everyone to pack a concealed firearm...thanks...but I'll pass. That's nothing but anarchy. :no:

Keep in mind that I've been in combat in the military...got that badge. I was in Panama City right behind the 82nd Airborne when snipers were taking shots at us and mortars were landing in our compound. I slept with a loaded M-16 beside me. I'm fully aware of what being in fear for your life means and you are not talking to a pacifist nor someone who has not "been there," but I do NOT believe the situation in our country is to the point that someone needs to pack a firearm to safely walk the dogs in a public park in broad daylight. Sorry, I just do not think recommending to someone in the OP's situation to pack a concealed firearm, a deadly weapon, makes any sense at all. JMO.

To the OP, if you are scared of being assaulted while walking your dogs, get some pepper spray. I'm not saying not to protect yourself but carrying a firearm to walk your dogs is absurd unless you plan to do it at night in a bad neighborhood.

Are you aware that those same mountains are full of pot plots and that the guys that raise it are not very friendly to flat landers?

You may not be aware of the fact that the Appalachian Trail has had a stalker problem for many years. There have been murders on it from PA to GA.

And just recently a couple killed on the breach somewhere, I forgot where, in their sleeping bags.

You may have won the war by yourself and have no fear of anything or anyone, but most of the people here are ordinary people who will lose in a hand to hand.

I admire MistyBlue, especially since she is obviously a lady and it takes a lot of spunk to do what she does, but unless someone is really on their toes the bad guy gets in the first blow and if he knows the right moves it is the victim that gets the thumb in the eye.

I am not sure, but I believe it was Gacey that hit his victims over the head with something. They were hit before they knew what was happening.

I think that a woman is perfectly within her rights to tell a stranger that is approaching that "That is close enough. Say what you have to say from there" and that she should say so at about a 12 ft. distance.

Of course, that would only be appropriate in the country. You can't expect everyone to stay 12' away in a shopping mall.

As for dogs, dogs are a double edged sword. Unless you have a dog that is a real guard dog, you are kidding yourself because this is what will happen:

Some nice looking guy will let you walk by him and as you go by he will say something like "Gee, that is a nice looking dog.
I always did like labs. I had one when I was in college. Smartest dog I ever had. Boy, I wish I had another like yours. You think I could get one from the same place?"...all the time easing closer and reaching out to pat your dog...only you end up getting patted.

I always told my daughters to watch out for the guys that looked OK. The real nut jobs are already in jail.

CSSJR

Chall
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:21 PM
Bottom line for me is trust your gut. If your little voice says not to go down a certain path.. follow your little voice.
Wasn't there a time when guns were recommended for fox hunters and long distance riders so that they could dispatch their horses when they broke a leg far from civilization? Or is that just a movie myth I am carrying in my head?

cssutton
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:25 PM
Bottom line for me is trust your gut. If your little voice says not to go down a certain path.. follow your little voice.
Wasn't there a time when guns were recommended for fox hunters and long distance riders so that they could dispatch their horses when they broke a leg far from civilization? Or is that just a movie myth I am carrying in my head?

I have foxhunted since 1941 and read many books of the days before that and I never heard of that.

But I do carry a pistol when I haul horses in case I were to have a bad wreck and a horse be injured beyond repair.

CSSJR

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:55 AM
Are you aware that those same mountains are full of pot plots and that the guys that raise it are not very friendly to flat landers?

You may not be aware of the fact that the Appalachian Trail has had a stalker problem for many years. There have been murders on it from PA to GA.



Yes, people grow pot everywhere. I seriously doubt they are growing it on the trail itself so unless you are wandering around well off the trail, I'd suspect you are quite safe from some drug farmer. We used to have folks growing pot in the woods when I was a kid in the mountains of PA...so what's new there?

A stalker problem? First I've heard of it and I hang out on an Appalachian Trail forum. I might ask that question over there and about carrying a firearm on the trail and link it here. I think you will find the response to be overwhelmingly negative about carrying firearms out there and these are people who have hiked it for years. Most hikers fear the mice in the shelters more than anything else. :yes:

I only brought up my past and that I am a veteran with combat experience because I was accused of being a pacifist because I disagree with someone packing a firearm out of a sense of paranoia while walking dogs in a park in broad daylight. :no:

Whatever...get a gun dalpal...I don't care...just try not to shoot yourself with it or someone else who doesn't deserve it or have the bad guy use it on you...those three scenarios are much more likely than you ever shooting someone who intends you harm.

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:04 AM
Whatever...get a gun dalpal...I don't care...just try not to shoot yourself with it or someone else who doesn't deserve it or have the bad guy use it on you...those three scenarios are much more likely than you ever shooting someone who intends you harm

==============================================

This morning's Free Republic has several instances of people who are alive this morning because they were armed.

You might like to read them.

I don't see how you could not know about the several murders on the trial. Perhaps you are on a blog that is promoting the trail and therefore does not want bad publicity.

CSSJR

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:09 AM
Yes, people grow pot everywhere. I seriously doubt they are growing it on the trail itself so unless you are wandering around well off the trail, I'd suspect you are quite safe from some drug farmer. We used to have folks growing pot in the woods when I was a kid in the mountains of PA...so what's new there?

A stalker problem? First I've heard of it and I hang out on an Appalachian Trail forum. I might ask that question over there and about carrying a firearm on the trail and link it here. I think you will find the response to be overwhelmingly negative about carrying firearms out there and these are people who have hiked it for years. Most hikers fear the mice in the shelters more than anything else. :yes:

I only brought up my past and that I am a veteran with combat experience because I was accused of being a pacifist because I disagree with someone packing a firearm out of a sense of paranoia while walking dogs in a park in broad daylight. :no:

Whatever...get a gun dalpal...I don't care...just try not to shoot yourself with it or someone else who doesn't deserve it or have the bad guy use it on you...those three scenarios are much more likely than you ever shooting someone who intends you harm.


I don't google. I use Ixquick

Put this in your search "appalachian trail murder" and you will be amazed at what just that one search phrase will bring up.

CSSJR

Protect your privacy. Replace Google with IXQUICK at www.ixquick.com.


If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor's right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

trubandloki
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:14 AM
Whatever...get a gun dalpal...I don't care...just try not to shoot yourself with it or someone else who doesn't deserve it or have the bad guy use it on you...those three scenarios are much more likely than you ever shooting someone who intends you harm.

Not saying guns are for everyone. But just read the number of people in this thread alone that have a concealed carry permit that have not caused a problem with their gun. People who carry guns are not out looking for people to shoot. And I would hope that the majority who have gone thru the trouble of getting their permit to carry concealed would also go thru the trouble to learn how to use their gun in the safest way possible.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:38 AM
Put this in your search "appalachian trail murder" and you will be amazed at what just that one search phrase will bring up.



I have researched it. There have been NINE murders through 2008 and that is over 80 years. That's all. That's less than one night in New York city I'd imagine. Probably one of the safest places in the US to be is on the Appalachian Trail. :yes:

Again, I will repeat for those who don't have the ability to read for comprehension, I am NOT a pacifist. I am a war veteran. I own rifles that I keep in my house in a safe place until I might need them.

I do not have a problem with someone's right to bear arms but it is NOT the first thing I recommend to someone who asks about self protection. I do think there is a much bigger problem with people getting hurt by accident while carrying firearms than any need to shoot someone for legitimate self defense...thus my position that the OP would be better served by pepper spray or some other NON LETHAL form of self defense.

So get a grip and get over yourself. I'm not saying you can't have your damn gun.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:40 AM
And I would hope that the majority who have gone thru the trouble of getting their permit to carry concealed would also go thru the trouble to learn how to use their gun in the safest way possible.

I would hope so too. Is there a requirement to do so or can people just buy a gun and carry it with little to no training?

x-rab
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:41 AM
For urban walking, wear a metal referee's wistle around your neck or carry it in your hand. When frightened, some people's throat closes up and they can't scream. However if you can breathe, you can blow the whistle. 1 it is loud and can attract more interest and 2 you can break their ear drums if you blow it close to their ear. Also, when walking carry a stout walking stick. I can help your balance when going over rough ground and can be used to trip or hit some one if you are attacked. A hit across the shin bone especially right below the knee works very well.

My daddy was always fond of teaching me to use the heel of my shoes to run down the shin bone and into the arch of the foot. Works best with high heels. I am slower than Christmas so can't run away from a fight.

MB, I have read that if you hit someone hard with the heel of your hand at the corner of the eye socket, it can disable or kill them. Is it true?

trubandloki
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:45 AM
I would hope so too. Is there a requirement to do so or can people just buy a gun and carry it with little to no training?

Different states, heck even different counties in the same state, have different requirements.

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:52 AM
I have researched it. There have been NINE murders through 2008. That's all. That's less than one night in New York city I'd imagine. Probably one of the safest places in the US to be is on the Appalachian Trail

==================================

If you will read further, you will see that the murders were only the most grievous incidents. There were many less serious, but still serious.

There is a difference between a large area like NY and a narrow trial, even though long.

At least to my way of thinking.

Use I-95 as an example.

NY is so large in width as well as in length that if a murderer passes through the city, it would be very unlikely that he would pass near you. Assuming for the moment that at any one period in time, there is only one murderer in the city.

Now if you are on a narrow trail or on I-95 and you stay on it long enough, any murder who travels that route will travel within a few feet of you.

That is OK so long as you are not an inviting target.

A woman with a flat tire on I-95 is an inviting target and the history if replete with women who were assaulted in one manner or another by what they believed to be a good Samaritan.

You run the same risk on the trail. Anyone who stays on it long enough will sooner or later be in close proximity to any bad guy that travels or watches the trail.

Paranoid? Maybe, but remember the old saw "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

CSSJR

Frank B
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:54 AM
Don't have time to read all the posts, but look into NRA's Refuse To Be A Victim (http://www.nrahq.org/rtbav/) program.

Law enforcement agencies in many towns and cities have teamed with the NRA to instruct individuals wanting to take a proactive stance on their own safety.

They'll offer suggestions on which pistol(s)/device(s) are most appropriate for you, and train you in its proper application.

sisu27
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:58 AM
I bet the same people who are poo-pooing carrying the preventative measures/weapons against assualt and abduction because of the low statistical probablity of assault - wear their seat belt in the car and wear a helmet when they ride.

A good quality expandable baton can also be a good defensive weapon.

Right. The number one killer around here (Toronto) is probably death by car accident. So, wearing your seatbelt (which is also the law BTW) is probably not exactly "paranoid behavior". I also do not have an option to ride without a helmet....barn rules and also isn't riding the most dangerous sport in the world (according to some University study)? So, again not paranoid. Smart.

I know someone will want hard data which I don't have but I think we all know that your odds of being raped/killed/assaulted are not good. I have heard that it is fairly common for those carrying a weapon to have that weapon used against them as well. So it does seem a bit paranoid to feel the need to carry a gun to walk your dogs IMO.

I also think you are far safer in remote areas then in the city. I feel comfortable walking my dogs (one is a Doberman though) at night, in the bush then I do walking downtown in broad daylight. Maybe I am stupid but I hear of far more violent crime occuring in the city then in the bush.

I do agree with those that said your "F U vibe" is the best defence. The snarling dog doesn't hurt either. It is kind of depressing for me to read how many women feel so scared to be out in society. Sad statement about the world we live in.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:02 AM
I have researched it. There have been NINE murders through 2008. That's all. That's less than one night in New York city I'd imagine. Probably one of the safest places in the US to be is on the Appalachian Trail

==================================

If you will read further, you will see that the murders were only the most grievous incidents. There were many less serious, but still serious.

There is a difference between a large area like NY and a narrow trial, even though long.

At least to my way of thinking.

Use I-95 as an example.

NY is so large in width as well as in length that if a murderer passes through the city, it would be very unlikely that he would pass near you. Assuming for the moment that at any one period in time, there is only one murderer in the city.

Now if you are on a narrow trail or on I-95 and you stay on it long enough, any murder who travels that route will travel within a few feet of you.

That is OK so long as you are not an inviting target.

A woman with a flat tire on I-95 is an inviting target and the history if replete with women who were assaulted in one manner or another by what they believed to be a good Samaritan.

You run the same risk on the trail. Anyone who stays on it long enough will sooner or later be in close proximity to any bad guy that travels or watches the trail.

Paranoid? Maybe, but remember the old saw "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

CSSJR

So your point is that shit happens everywhere? No kidding? I'd have never figured that out without your incredible insight. :confused: Sorry I just don't buy into your version of paranoia. Carry a gun if you like but don't insist that we all do just because you are afraid.

One absolute fact is that we are all going to die someday and all the guns in the world aren't going to prevent that from happening to you, to me or to everyone else.

gieriscm
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:08 AM
I would hope so too. Is there a requirement to do so or can people just buy a gun and carry it with little to no training?

Most states have some sort of training requirement. The classes I've attended not only focus on proficiency, but also include a session with an attorney on the lethal force laws for that state.

While I haven't come off my horse in years and my guy is in his 20's, I still wear a helmet every time I ride.

While I've never had a fire in my house or truck, there are fire extinguishers easily accessible in both.

I also carry homeowner's insurance, life insurance, health insurance, short- and long-term disablity insurance, business liability insurance, etc. though the odds of needing any of them are small.

A firearm carried for self-defense is insurance. While the odds of you ever needing it are small... when you need it, you need it.

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:13 AM
I would hope so too. Is there a requirement to do so or can people just buy a gun and carry it with little to no training?

I am amazed at that post.

I originally thought that I was discussing the matter with someone familiar with guns, self protection but just not a believer in self reliance.

That quote illustrates that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Every person with any knowledge of guns knows that you can purchase a shotgun or a rifle in NC just by handing the seller your money and that is the case in every state I know of.

There may be some states that are more restrictive.

You can not purchase a pistol in any state I know of without a permit from a local law enforcement agency.

You can not get a CC without going through an extensive course which includes demonstrating the ability to shoot, to handle the pistol safely, to maintain it. There is a classroom portion that deals with the legal side of CC: Where you can and can not carry, under what conditions you are considered to be legally able to protect yourself and where that right ends, etc.

In many states you can open carry, but even in those states there may be local ordinances that prevent it.

Those local ordinances may not be enforceable in court, but nevertheless cops use them to hassle you.

Concealed carry requires a permit although I believe a couple of states allow it without a permit (Vermont is one) and I know there is a push for allowing anyone to conceal carry in a few states.

You need to go to this link and read the entire thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry

Remember: When seconds count, call 911 and the cops will be there in minutes.

CSSJR

gieriscm
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:21 AM
You can not purchase a pistol in any state I know of without a permit from a local law enforcement agency.

Actually most states do not have purchase permits and private sales between individulas who reside in the same state are legal. NC is not one of them.

Sales across state lines must go through a dealer. That was part of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

07 FFL/C2 SOT

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:27 AM
Again, read for comprehension csutton. I wasn't talking about concealed carry. I was asking that can anyone buy and carry a gun/sidearm without training? I did not say "concealed" carry only did I? So the answer is yes, anyone can buy a handgun and carry it openly when allowed by local laws without training. Now that is scary!

And no, since I do not carry a sidearm with me daily, I'm not up on the latest laws. I'm pretty good with rifles though and a damn good shot.

Go find someone else to argue with. You are very tedious.

trubandloki
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:27 AM
You can not get a CC without going through an extensive course which includes demonstrating the ability to shoot, to handle the pistol safely, to maintain it. There is a classroom portion that deals with the legal side of CC: Where you can and can not carry, under what conditions you are considered to be legally able to protect yourself and where that right ends, etc.



I wish this was the case but it is not. I took my hand gun safety course before I applied for my permit because I had been told I needed it to get my CC. I brought my certificate with me when I went to apply and I was told it was not necessary but they liked that I had it.

In the next county over it is required.

And I wish they had gone over more of the legalities in the class.


Again, read for comprehension csutton. I wasn't talking about concealed carry. I was asking that can anyone buy and carry a gun/sidearm without training? I did not say "concealed" carry only did I? So the answer is yes, anyone can buy a handgun and carry it openly when allowed by local laws without training. Now that is scary!



A long gun can be purchased in my state by anyone (of age) at any time. Purchasing/owning a hand gun requires a permit. Even if you are not getting a permit to carry concealed you still need a permit to own the gun and use it for target practice or competition, etc. All hand guns must be accounted for on the permit. In my county you actually are given a separate permit for each gun.

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:36 AM
Actually most states do not have purchase permits and private sales between individulas who reside in the same state are legal. NC is not one of them.

Sales across state lines must go through a dealer. That was part of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

07 FFL/C2 SOT


You are correct. I let the NC law warp my memory.

Thanks for the correction.

CSSJR

greysandbays
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:53 AM
It is kind of depressing for me to read how many women feel so scared to be out in society. Sad statement about the world we live in.

That's the price we pay for "Women's Lib".

When we decided we wanted to be Women instead of Ladies, it released Gentlemen from the obligation impressed upon them by society to treat Ladies like Ladies. Now they can just be Men.

Not that there haven't always been men who weren't Gentlemen, but accusation of wrongdoing from a Lady could get him hung with very little real evidence. Now a man is only has to be a Gentleman if he wants to be.

We got what we wanted -- now it's up to us to realize that the woman who is found raped and strangled with her own pantyhose is in no way morally superior to the woman who must explain to the cops how her attacker acquired that fatal GSW.

bird4416
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:01 AM
Sort of pertinent picture.
http://tinyurl.com/yjkgwnd

trubandloki
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:29 AM
I totally LOVE that sign Bird!

I wanted to get one to point at my neighbor that does not like us when we target practice (legally) on our land.

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:39 AM
Again, read for comprehension csutton. I wasn't talking about concealed carry. I was asking that can anyone buy and carry a gun/sidearm without training? I did not say "concealed" carry only did I? So the answer is yes, anyone can buy a handgun and carry it openly when allowed by local laws without training. Now that is scary!

And no, since I do not carry a sidearm with me daily, I'm not up on the latest laws. I'm pretty good with rifles though and a damn good shot.

Go find someone else to argue with. You are very tedious.

Tedious, yes.

If you are going to be knowledgeable about anything, whether it is dressage, grand prix or gun laws in 50 states x 100 counties x an exponential number of local laws within the counties, you will have to be tedious.


CSSJR

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:54 AM
Actually most states do not have purchase permits and private sales between individulas who reside in the same state are legal. NC is not one of them.

Sales across state lines must go through a dealer. That was part of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

07 FFL/C2 SOT

Incidentally you're correction is correct if you use the definition of it depends on what "is" is.

You are technically correct.

However, many states other than NC do require a permit, some even for long guns.

However, where NC has a very strict process requiring that you personally appear before a law enforcement organization and apply and which is granted only after they determine your character, other states have forms that are of varying degrees of difficulty.

IL for instance requires a form that you can download from the internet and fill out yourself. Nevertheless, it is a permit because without it you can not purchase a pistol.

NJ and NY have a permit system which appears to be relatively simple, but it is a permit nevertheless.

VA is a snap but you still must identify yourself with a valid driver's license and proof that you live at the address on your license.

So in that sense you are being "permitted" to purchase.

I certainly am not inclined to dig into all of that except to make the point that just any wild man, rolling his eyes and foaming at the mouth to kill someone can not go down to the store and walk out in 5 minutes with a pistol. At least not in most jurisdictions.

And there are jurisdictions within each state that have much more stringent requirements than the state has. Examples, Cook County, IL, New York City, etc.

So more tedium, but that is what happens when you ask questions. You get answers.

CSSJR

Tiki
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:05 PM
When I was stationed in Germany, a friend of mine told us all that she was out jogging on a trail in the woods outside Ramstein Air Base one day with her dog, Lando, a German Shepherd. We all knew Lando well. He was a very sweet and friendly dog. She said Lando was off the the side of the trail, in the woods, chasing down smells while she was jogging along when all of a sudden a man jumped out and grabbed her, knocked her to the ground and was on top of her, holding her down. She said it happend so fast she couldn't stop him or defend herself. She was wondering where the d@mn dog was when all of a sudden there was a rush of black blur and the guy was jerked off of her so fast she couldn't even imagine what had happened. She had never heard a sound. Lando had come out of the woods at about 90 miles an hour, latched on HARD and ripped him off my friend. She told us she had a terrible time pulling Lando off him. We asked her why she had. ;) Personally, I would have let the dog work on him for a while.

vacation1
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:26 PM
Whee, gun control!!! I'm skipping that whole thing, Panama included, and just addressing the OP regarding walking dogs in parks. I love taking my dog to local parks to run loose - to do that with any safety (ie, so Beloved Dog doesn't end up hit by a car or running down elderly people out for a constitutional), the park has to be large and rather deserted, so I'm a little concerned about safety too. If I go to a park and get a bad vibe, I don't go back. I don't worry I'm being prejudiced or paranoid, I just shrug and look for somewhere I feel safer. I don't like the woods much - we go to the woods, but I often prefer open areas where you can see someone approach much more easily.

Maybe I overreact sometimes, but there are some very odd people out there, and a lot of nasty dogs running loose. I carry dog spray and a pocket knife, both more for the next POS dog who attacks us while Mommy stands 60' away calling out "She's a rescue!" than for potential human monsters.


I do agree with those that said your "F U vibe" is the best defence.

This reminds me of my dogs - I've had three, two were very sweet, open, friendly collies. The third was a terrier/husky mix who wasn't hostile or nasty but whose essential attitude toward the world was "Don't." Don't look, don't touch, don't even think about it. Of my three dogs, she was the only one who was never seriously attacked. The other two both got attacked repeatedly by roaming, POS dogs that were opportunistic predators with vicious owners. BUT - attitude only takes you so far. The seriously vicious and the insane will go after anyone, anytime.


That's the price we pay for "Women's Lib". When we decided we wanted to be Women instead of Ladies, it released Gentlemen from the obligation impressed upon them by society to treat Ladies like Ladies. Now they can just be Men. Not that there haven't always been men who weren't Gentlemen, but accusation of wrongdoing from a Lady could get him hung with very little real evidence. Now a man is only has to be a Gentleman if he wants to be.

Yes, rather like how Emancipation released whites from the obligation impressed upon them by economics to treat blacks as valuable property.

bird4416
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:42 PM
That's the price we pay for "Women's Lib".

When we decided we wanted to be Women instead of Ladies, it released Gentlemen from the obligation impressed upon them by society to treat Ladies like Ladies. Now they can just be Men.

Not that there haven't always been men who weren't Gentlemen, but accusation of wrongdoing from a Lady could get him hung with very little real evidence. Now a man is only has to be a Gentleman if he wants to be.

We got what we wanted -- now it's up to us to realize that the woman who is found raped and strangled with her own pantyhose is in no way morally superior to the woman who must explain to the cops how her attacker acquired that fatal GSW.

Ahhh, the good ole days, when we couldn't vote, get pregnant when we were teachers or receive equal pay for equal work etc.

CosMonster
Dec. 3, 2009, 01:12 PM
Bottom line for me is trust your gut. If your little voice says not to go down a certain path.. follow your little voice.
Wasn't there a time when guns were recommended for fox hunters and long distance riders so that they could dispatch their horses when they broke a leg far from civilization? Or is that just a movie myth I am carrying in my head?

I don't know about fox hunters but I do a lot of riding in the Rockies over some difficult and potentially dangerous terrain and I always carry a gun (or make sure someone in the group is if I'm riding with others) mostly for that reason. I don't really worry about rapists or bears or whatever.

dalpal, unless you're very comfortable with a gun (or work to become so) I personally don't believe you should carry one. I'm definitely pro-gun, my SO and I own many, but I just don't believe they are ideal for self defense in the situation you describe. It is too easy for someone to catch you by surprise. I think you're better off taking some self defense classes and just being aware of your surroundings.

DownYonder
Dec. 3, 2009, 01:49 PM
I do think there is a much bigger problem with people getting hurt by accident while carrying firearms ...

Sorry, but this comment makes me laugh. Do you have any idea how many people walk around packing heat - without "hurting themselves by accident"?

Soapey Sponge
Dec. 3, 2009, 01:52 PM
It’s frightening when isolated incidents of violence happen. The disproportionate attention given to such incidents in mainstream media, where “if it bleeds it leads” ratchet up levels of popular paranoia.

But I think people who say, ”in this day and age you can’t be too careful,” etc., etc., misunderstand the situation. We are immeasurably better informed about violent incidents when they do happen than people were in the past. But anyone who thinks such things didn’t happen in the past is severely misinformed, and the notion that contemporary crime against women is somehow linked to equal rights for women is just bonkers, no offense.

While there are obviously no statistics available for the premodern period there is a lot of cultural evidence to go upon, and everything suggests the threat of being assaulted, raped and/or killed by Psycho Killers has been a constant. In fact, I would wager that the rate per capita in isolated areas may have been higher the farther back in history you go, at least in rural areas. There was no organized police force, what do you expect? Keep in mind there’s a whole category of early folk songs known as “murder ballads.” Read the lyrics of late 18th – early 19th century songs like “Pretty Polly” or “Omie Wise;” the grisly stories they tell would fit just fine into a contemporary episode of Nancy Grace. Evidence that such events have happened consistently, and that the captured the imagination and fear of the public then in much the same way that they do now.

Wonders12
Dec. 3, 2009, 01:57 PM
I think we all know that your odds of being raped/killed/assaulted are not good.

:eek::eek::eek:

Stats range from 1 in 3 to 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted or raped in their lifetime.

Lets go for the 1 in 6 stat for argument purposes. Take a minute and think of 6 women in your life. Mom, sisters, friends, riding buddings, neighbors... One of those women (at least) will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

This doesn't include other assaults. I don't know about you, but that stat is WAY to high for me. :no:

There are things that change your odds. 87% of rape victims are white. 9 out of 10 are women. College age women increase their changes by 4 times...

We should, however, remember that 74% of rape victims know their assailants.

But saying it's not likely... that's just not realistic.:sigh:

mustangtrailrider
Dec. 3, 2009, 03:10 PM
Just for instance DalPal:

I was walking my dogs in my back "yard" this afternoon. I look up and there are at least 10-12 feral dogs a 1/4 mile ahead. I drew my gun and asked my dogs to git em. My 2 large dogs ran the pack off. I had my gun ready. My 2 doxies were by my side.

I carry for the incidences mentioned above. I use it to protect myself and my dogs from harm. Yes, I was prepared to use it. No, there was no one else around in case of accidental mis-fire. I am very aware of my surroundings. I do practice often and know my gun well.

That is why I carry when I walk the dogs in broad day light!

MistyBlue
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:00 PM
Stats range from 1 in 3 to 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted or raped in their lifetime.

True, but the stats include verbal sexual harassment and/or innuendo. IOW, they include someone making off color sexual remarks. Like someone saying "nice arse!"


I was walking my dogs in my back "yard" this afternoon. I look up and there are at least 10-12 feral dogs a 1/4 mile ahead. I drew my gun and asked my dogs to git em. My 2 large dogs ran the pack off. I had my gun ready. My 2 doxies were by my side.

I carry for the incidences mentioned above. I use it to protect myself and my dogs from harm. Yes, I was prepared to use it. No, there was no one else around in case of accidental mis-fire.

This thread is getting a tad frightening. Commanding 2 dogs to run off a fersl pack of 12? And then planning on using a pistol to defend them in the midst of a fight if need be?

Even as a firearm supporter I have to agree with DDB, it is true that the vast majority of firearm related injuries are accidental in this country.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:11 PM
Sorry, but this comment makes me laugh. Do you have any idea how many people walk around packing heat - without "hurting themselves by accident"?

Do you know how many people are accidentally injured or killed by firearms in the US? I don't know how many aren't injured but I know several people in my small circle of acquaintances that were killed by accidents with firearms...or while packing "heat" as you put it. Here are some interesting statistics...no idea of their accuracy, I am just googling.

http://www.famaas.org/stats.html

This one is interesting. Firearms rank 10th in leading causes of death in the US both natural and accidental causes. The 10th leading cause of accidental death is firearms. That was a bit of a surprise even to me...I did not think it was that high...so I'd say the chance of accidentally killing yourself or someone else is statistically significant. :no:

http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:15 PM
T

Even as a firearm supporter I have to agree with DDB, it is true that the vast majority of firearm related injuries are accidental in this country.

Thanks for that comment. Despite my stance on this topic, I am not anti firearms at all. We own rifles but no handguns.

JSwan
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:17 PM
I love guns. I love to shoot skeet, hunt, and am a real redneck. Even have a broken appliance on the front porch to prove it.

Also was in the Army; among the first females to go through real co-ed basic training. Talk about running a gauntlet! And then to qualify Expert on all those weapons - hooo boy. The males called me all kinds of names. They were very cruel. You think a trainwreck on this BB is bad - try outperforming 100 young men and see how you're treated.

But all that was a long time ago and it doesn't matter. Not even to me.

As a fellow female, I would like to say to my sisters that there is one weapon you always carry with you.

Your attitude/body language.

Humans are predators. Predators with clothes and computers - but predators. Like all predators -we look for the one that appears to be weak. The one that lags behind, is too far in front, does not appear to be aware of her surroundings.

Being strong doesn't always mean you're physically strong. It means you have a presence. Your stride is purposeful. Your head is up. You look around. You challenge.

The problem with relying upon a firearm is that you really don't know how you'll react in an emergency. Will you scream? Cry? Fumble? Shake? None of us knows how we will react until THAT moment happens.

That's the wrong time to discover that you're so terrified you shake so bad you fumble and drop the weapon - and then are frozen where you stand.

You become easy pickings.

No matter what you choose for personal protection -please remember that your greatest weapon is you. Call it your inner bit** if you want.

Cultivate you inner strengths - and your choice of protection (gun, pepper spray) enhances and compliments you.

Does that make sense?

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:24 PM
Oh God, I got home from the barn and this is still going on and someone has brought in women's lib? Well mares are smarter than the boy horses too.

First off, we do not have equal rights. I marched with MLKing and all the other civil rights leaders to get equal rights for African Americans, but the women's lib movement has been totally derailed by women ATTACKING (verbally) other women.

Secondly, I llive in a state where one city actually has a law requiring its citizens to own guns. LOL.

Thirdly, as a woman who grew up in a gun family, I don't see the fear factor, I understand that some people who have never owned a gun might not want to carry one, and that is fine with me, if you don't like guns, don't carry one.

Then we have the issue of is this our (women's) fault!:confused: Let me tell you, as a prosecutor for over 28 yrs, over 20 in a major city and over 8 in the sticks and swamps, I have always said that women should be able to go into the woods and onto the downtown streets without being in fear of attack.

These are our streets, our roads, our parks, our horse riding trails, to keep this horse related. Why must we lock our door, bar our windows, and worry that we will be jumped in the woods with our horses and/or our dogs?

My father explained life to me as a child and I learned when I worked with Atlanta cops over 20 yrs that he and they were right: You have to take control if you want to enjoy life without fear. So yes, I carry and have always, since I went to a religious women's college, carried a gun for protection on the roads, in the forests, on trials, in the sticks and swamps of GA and in the cities.

And btw, the gun laws have been totally gutted. Thanks to Cheney (a poor example of shooting, oops it's not off topic day.) Plus of course you can go to a gun show in state's like mine and buy automatic weapons.

So if women want to carry guns for protection, any cop will tell you to learn to use the gun, take control, and don't be afraid.

JSwan
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:34 PM
So if women want to carry guns for protection, any cop will tell you to learn to use the gun, take control, and don't be afraid.


Yes, candc but that cop has had many months and years of training. He or she, like a soldier has been drilled to the point that the firearm, and its use, is second nature.

The difference between such a person, and a "regular" American, is that the regular person does not know how they will react in an emergency. You cannot tell someone to simply "not be afraid", and then expect them to deal with a 230lb attacker with a .22.

It's simply not that easy. It's easy on paper. In REALITY, it's terrifying.

Becoming proficient with a firearm is necessary to ensure you operate the weapon correctly and responsibly.

But it's crucial that the individual also cultivate aspects of their character/personality that hopefully will keep them calm, level headed, and able to control their fear should the worst happen.

The time to shake, fumble and feel the fear is AFTER the crisis is over. During the crisis - we MUST be strong and level headed.

And one way to hopefully avoid a crisis is to not act like prey.

Nezzy
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:35 PM
i did not read thru this entire thread, but i am also concerned for my own dogs. This year alone, i know of at least 3 dog attacks where one pomeranian was killed by a loose shephard, a 9 yr old Akita was Mauled by 3 loose pits, and barely lived thru it, missing an ear and an eye, and another dog i think was a greyhound was attacked by a boxer he is doing alright now.

I am now carrying Very strong pepper spray. i got the one that streams, not sprays, so it goes long distance and does not blow back into your face. i carry one with me on my horse, i carry one when walking my dogs and anytime i am going to be walking alone, it's IN my hand at all times.

I am also worried about people, but this year i learned about all the dogs that were loose and attacking, and i'm not going to deal with that.

greysandbays
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:39 PM
Firearms rank 10th in leading causes of death in the US both natural and accidental causes. The 10th leading cause of accidental death is firearms. That was a bit of a surprise even to me...I did not think it was that high...so I'd say the chance of accidentally killing yourself or someone else is statistically significant. :no:



To worry about firearms being the number ten rated cause of accidental deaths is silly when automobiles, unspecified non-motor accidents, falls, poisoning, drowning, smoke/fire, "other" land transport accidents, and complications of medical/surgical care all out rank guns for accidentally killing people.

According to that, your car, your house, and your doctor all have a better chance of getting you killed than your gun.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:41 PM
I agree with MistyBlue, who posted

it takes literally years to be proficient with a small pistol and a certain level of experience and comfort to be able to use on in self defense.
I refuse to go riding or hiking or anywhere else with most people who carry guns, unless that person has had the kind of training and experience MistyBlue describes.

Unfortunately, some of my women friends are starting to carry little pistols in their purses or out on the trail.

Off-duty officers excepted, most of the folks I know who carry guns in daily life are, well, kind of fraidy-cats to start with.:) Not the sort of person I want in charge of a lethal weapon during a crisis.:eek:

I think self-awareness and an unladylike willingness to scream, cuss, kick, gouge and run like hell are far better protection than firearms.

MistyBlue
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:43 PM
Unfortunately Nezzy, you're right to be wary of loose dogs. People have a far higher chance of having attack issues with loose pets than they do with serial killers or rapists. (not that the latter aren't out there but there are more loose pets than psycho pople)
The stream spray is a far more effective and easy to use type than the mist spray.
Another handy item to have around for loose dogs or feral dogs...I have a friend who walks her dogs carrying a cattle prod. Have to say it seems to work wonders breaking up dog fights and keeping loose dogs away. :eek: :yes: :eek:

x-rab
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:04 PM
All this reminds me that I do walk my dog at 5:30am most days and I don't carry any more protection than my keys and the dog's retractable leash. I do need to start wearing my whistle and maybe carry my walking stick. What I lack in size I do make for with mean when it comes to defending my animals and myself.

If I lived further out in the country would definitely have to get a cattle prod to carry around. Sounds like a useful thing to have around.

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:26 PM
Do you know how many people are accidentally injured or killed by firearms in the US? I don't know how many aren't injured but I know several people in my small circle of acquaintances that were killed by accidents with firearms...or while packing "heat" as you put it. Here are some interesting statistics...no idea of their accuracy, I am just googling.

http://www.famaas.org/stats.html

This one is interesting. Firearms rank 10th in leading causes of death in the US both natural and accidental causes. The 10th leading cause of accidental death is firearms. That was a bit of a surprise even to me...I did not think it was that high...so I'd say the chance of accidentally killing yourself or someone else is statistically significant. :no:

http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html


That old saying "Liars figure and figures lie" comes to mind.

The statistics you refer to include gang bangers killing each other in the streets over drugs as well as accidental shootings.

Almost every day we read in the paper of a murder involving bad guys on both sides.

Rarely do we read of an accidental shooting, although they do occur.

But even then, they are rarely caused by the kind of people we are talking about here.

It is usually some drunk who leaves his gun out in the open where a small child gets it or some idiot climbing into his blind and pulling a loaded gun tied to a string, muzzle up, to his tree blind.

And hunting accidents, which are included in the total numbers, should not be a part of the discussion here because that is a different kettle of fish all together.

You have to read those numbers with a huge grain of salt.

CSSJr

LexInVA
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:29 PM
It's ironic that we're discussing this right now as there's a bit of 2nd Amendment ruckus going on in the DC Metro area and some rallys planned in DC.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:45 PM
Rarely do we read of an accidental shooting, although they do occur.

But even then, they are rarely caused by the kind of people we are talking about here.

It is usually some drunk who leaves his gun out in the open where a small child gets it or some idiot climbing into his blind and pulling a loaded gun tied to a string, muzzle up, to his tree blind.

You have to read those numbers with a huge grain of salt.

CSSJr

And you were just trying to scare me with statistics a little while ago about how dangerous everyday activities were...hiking, changing tires, etc... Seems to me that when it suits your POV, you like statistics and when it does not, you say they are wrong or skewed.

I hate to be the one to tell you but serious people...some I knew personally...have made mistakes with firearms and killed others. No they weren't drunk or the "wrong" kind of people....just ordinary folks like us.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:55 PM
It's ironic that we're discussing this right now as there's a bit of 2nd Amendment ruckus going on in the DC Metro area and some rallys planned in DC.

Sweet Jesus, Lex, where have you been?:confused:

Well, I've not been in combat in war, but I have been mugged multiple times and have had guys try to run me off the road between VA and GA, so I consider myself an urban and rural guerilla warfare victim.........

btw, both cities and states lie about the number of crimes committed there in order to not scare off people.

and............some law enforcement and state's attys discourage victims from reporting crimes in order not to have to work.

and.......a lot of victims, particularly women and gay men and African Americans, do not report crimes because they do not think that anyone will believe them.

so statistics lie. And there are at any time dozens of serial murderers crisscrossing the gold old USA, only getting caught when they slip up and pick victims whose families are proactive.

My perspective is from within the criminal justice system, i.e., I didn't read the above, I lived it for decades.

So if a gun will protect you and your dogs, OP, and if you can handle one, get one. It doesn't have to be the biggest baddest gun, it can be a little 22 revolver, its affect produces the same effect if you shoot from a few feet.

Horsebackriding is for enjoyment. People should not be afraid to ride in the woods.

MTR: Did you read a few months ago where the woman near Athens was out looking for her dog, and the pack of dogs killed her? Then her husband went looking for her, and the pack killed him also. Be careful around packs of dogs!

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:05 PM
Yes, candc but that cop has had many months and years of training. He or she, like a soldier has been drilled to the point that the firearm, and its use, is second nature.

The difference between such a person, and a "regular" American, is that the regular person does not know how they will react in an emergency. You cannot tell someone to simply "not be afraid", and then expect them to deal with a 230lb attacker with a .22.

It's simply not that easy. It's easy on paper. In REALITY, it's terrifying.

Becoming proficient with a firearm is necessary to ensure you operate the weapon correctly and responsibly.

But it's crucial that the individual also cultivate aspects of their character/personality that hopefully will keep them calm, level headed, and able to control their fear should the worst happen.

The time to shake, fumble and feel the fear is AFTER the crisis is over. During the crisis - we MUST be strong and level headed.

And one way to hopefully avoid a crisis is to not act like prey.

Thank you for this post. Very well said.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:09 PM
To worry about firearms being the number ten rated cause of accidental deaths is silly when automobiles, unspecified non-motor accidents, falls, poisoning, drowning, smoke/fire, "other" land transport accidents, and complications of medical/surgical care all out rank guns for accidentally killing people.

According to that, your car, your house, and your doctor all have a better chance of getting you killed than your gun.

You misunderstood the point of why I posted that. It was in response to someone who said that accidents with guns were rare or unlikely. I seriously doubt that if death by accidental shootings are in the top ten ways to die by accident that accidents with guns are all that rare. Just think of all the other accidental ways to die that were not in the top ten. THAT was my point.

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:12 PM
And you were just trying to scare me with statistics a little while ago about how dangerous everyday activities were...hiking, changing tires, etc... Seems to me that when it suits your POV, you like statistics and when it does not, you say they are wrong or skewed.

I hate to be the one to tell you but serious people...some I knew personally...have made mistakes with firearms and killed others. No they weren't drunk or the "wrong" kind of people....just ordinary folks like us.


Where did I use statistics to prove a point?

I mentioned the number of peeple killed on the trail. That is not a statistic. That is a news item.

I then picked the "more murders in NY on a single night" , if anyone could call that a statistic, apart by pointing out the difference in NY in general and I-95 in particular.

Please remind of of any oher use and I will review my posts.

I am 81 years old, have spent most of that time with people who hunt and carry guns most of the time and I have never had a friend or known anyone who has shot himself accidentally. I have had one neighbor murdered in his own house, another murdered by persons who wanted to steal his pot and two others who committed suicide.

None of those are pertinent to this discussion.

All of the above in a rural area where until sometime in the 1970's very few people locked their doors day or night, at home or away.

[edit]

CSSJR

JSwan
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:13 PM
I've had a bad week and would like to put some brakes on the trainwreck - hope y'all find this as funny as I did. Certainly seems appropriate given the topic!
Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

Here is a little test that will help you decide.

The answer can be found by posing the following question:





#You're walking down a
deserted street with your wife
and two small children.

Suddenly, an Islamic
Terrorist with a huge knife
comes around the corner,
locks eyes with you,
screams obscenities, praises
Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you.

You are carrying a
Kimber 1911 cal. 45 ACP, and you are an expert shot.

You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.
What
do
you do?

.................................................. .................

THINK CAREFULLY AND
THEN SCROLL DOWN:


Democrat's
Answer :


Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
Does the man look poor or oppressed?
Have I ever done anything to him
that would inspire
him to attack?
Could we run away?
What does my wife think?
What about the kids?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club
and knock the knife out of his hand?
What does the law say about
this situation?
Does the pistol have appropriate safety built into it?
Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind
of message does this send to society and to my children?
Is it possible he'd be
happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would
he be content just to wound me?
If I were to grab his knees and hold
on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
Should I call
9-1-1?
Why is this street so deserted?
We need to raise taxes, have paint and weed day
and make this happier, healthier street that
would discourage such behavior..
This is all so confusing!
I need to debate this with some friends
for few days and try to come to a consensus.

.................................................. ..............................



Republican's
Answer:

BANG!


.................................................. ........................



Redneck's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG !
Click..... (Sounds of reloading)
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG! BANG!
BANG! Click
Daughter: 'Nice grouping, Daddy!
Were those the Winchester
Silver Tips or Hollow Points?! '
Son: 'Can I shoot the next one?!'
Wife: 'You ain't taking that to the Taxidermist!

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:20 PM
I've had a bad week and would like to put some brakes on the trainwreck - hope y'all find this as funny as I did. Certainly seems appropriate given the topic!
Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

Here is a little test that will help you decide.

The answer can be found by posing the following question:





#You're walking down a
deserted street with your wife
and two small children.

Suddenly, an Islamic
Terrorist with a huge knife
comes around the corner,
locks eyes with you,
screams obscenities, praises
Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you.

You are carrying a
Kimber 1911 cal. 45 ACP, and you are an expert shot.

You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.
What
do
you do?

.................................................. .................

THINK CAREFULLY AND
THEN SCROLL DOWN:


Democrat's
Answer :


Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
Does the man look poor or oppressed?
Have I ever done anything to him
that would inspire
him to attack?
Could we run away?
What does my wife think?
What about the kids?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club
and knock the knife out of his hand?
What does the law say about
this situation?
Does the pistol have appropriate safety built into it?
Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind
of message does this send to society and to my children?
Is it possible he'd be
happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would
he be content just to wound me?
If I were to grab his knees and hold
on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
Should I call
9-1-1?
Why is this street so deserted?
We need to raise taxes, have paint and weed day
and make this happier, healthier street that
would discourage such behavior..
This is all so confusing!
I need to debate this with some friends
for few days and try to come to a consensus.

.................................................. ..............................



Republican's
Answer:

BANG!


.................................................. ........................



Redneck's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG !
Click..... (Sounds of reloading)
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG! BANG!
BANG! Click
Daughter: 'Nice grouping, Daddy!
Were those the Winchester
Silver Tips or Hollow Points?! '
Son: 'Can I shoot the next one?!'
Wife: 'You ain't taking that to the Taxidermist!


Funny! You forgot one answer though...the he man pulls out his pepper spray and blinds the bad guy and carries his family to safety and calls 911! :lol::lol:

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:24 PM
cssutton, I worked 95 with the state patrol and deputy sheriffs from south of savannah to the FL line for over 8 yrs. There was more dope and dope money on that road than you could shake a stick at.

One of our deputies in Camden Co. was murdered during that time, shot by someone he stopped, and not expecting a white boy to shoot him. (rural county).

But to keep this horse related, my horse is boarded in a "white flight" county outside of Savannah. The county is has had it's name changed colloquially from it's real name of "Effingham" (after Lord Effingham) to "Methingham" after all the white dopers there. Dopers on meth in the countryside or on crack in the city cannot be stopped by a woman (or a couple of big cops) without a weapon. I've seen lots of these crackheads and tweeters and they are extremely dangerous. In the country, I do not want to come across one of them with my horse. Hence a gun.

But then I was taught as a child not to play with a gun. I think an adult could be taught the same and find it interesting that a lot of women think that a woman might "get into a dizzy" and drop her gun and shoot herself. Jeez, these women on this board wrestle snakes, back horses, drive tractors, etc., I think they have enough sense to learn gun safety.

DownYonder
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:33 PM
Do you know how many people are accidentally injured or killed by firearms in the US? I don't know how many aren't injured but I know several people in my small circle of acquaintances that were killed by accidents with firearms...or while packing "heat" as you put it. Here are some interesting statistics...no idea of their accuracy, I am just googling.

http://www.famaas.org/stats.html

This one is interesting. Firearms rank 10th in leading causes of death in the US both natural and accidental causes. The 10th leading cause of accidental death is firearms. That was a bit of a surprise even to me...I did not think it was that high...so I'd say the chance of accidentally killing yourself or someone else is statistically significant. :no:

http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html

The state of Florida alone issued 650,000 concealed weapons permits in 2009. If there was a "statistically significant" chance of those people accidentally killing themselves or someone else, we would be hearing about a boatload of accidental shootings in Florida every day.

And don't try to lecture me on stats regarding firearms related accidents. Hubby and I spent many years teaching firearms safety courses and we have a darned good understanding of the issues.

birdsong
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:55 PM
The one time I truly was in a position to use a gun for defense...it jammed!!
I was literally sitting on the sofa with the gun pointed at the door while a very large man with a crow bar was breaking in....there was a vendetta against the girl I was visiting...she had been brutally raped by 6 men 2 years before and someone was still trying to shut her up....fortunately the neighbor ran over and the creep ran.

Later found out the gun would not have fired!!:eek:

Carry wasp spray that shoots a 20' stream and aim for his eyes...always be aware of your surrounding and always be on guard and suspicious...sad but true.
Gosh didn't read the other posts before posting myself..won't get caught up in THAT fray..but attitude and confidence does carry "weight". I don't look down when I pass someone but look people in the eye...learned how to "read" someone's intent...do it sometime..most will look away.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:03 PM
You must clean and oil your gun.

And now most automatics don't jam, years ago, especially the S&W autos jammed on cops, and they had to get away from them.

A nice 38 revolver is an easy gun to load and to carry, snub nosed of course, and easy to clean.

Plus the trigger pull on a revolver (without cocking) is usually sufficient to allow it to be "abused" without firing accidentally. (Our state firearms experts always demonstrated abuse for our juries.)

When riding a horse or walking a dog, it is always good to have whatever weapon (gun, knife, whatever) that you are most comfortable with.

And when riding in a park or public area, as well as walking your dogs, Make friends with your beat cops, there should be 3 beat cops (3 watches) and probably an umbrella car or cop on foot. Make sure the cops know when you are usually there. Talk to them, they want to help you and they want people to like them. Cops can save your life.

RougeEmpire
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:20 PM
I love guns. I love to shoot skeet, hunt, and am a real redneck. Even have a broken appliance on the front porch to prove it.

Also was in the Army; among the first females to go through real co-ed basic training. Talk about running a gauntlet! And then to qualify Expert on all those weapons - hooo boy. The males called me all kinds of names. They were very cruel. You think a trainwreck on this BB is bad - try outperforming 100 young men and see how you're treated.

But all that was a long time ago and it doesn't matter. Not even to me.

As a fellow female, I would like to say to my sisters that there is one weapon you always carry with you.

Your attitude/body language.

Humans are predators. Predators with clothes and computers - but predators. Like all predators -we look for the one that appears to be weak. The one that lags behind, is too far in front, does not appear to be aware of her surroundings.

Being strong doesn't always mean you're physically strong. It means you have a presence. Your stride is purposeful. Your head is up. You look around. You challenge.

The problem with relying upon a firearm is that you really don't know how you'll react in an emergency. Will you scream? Cry? Fumble? Shake? None of us knows how we will react until THAT moment happens.

That's the wrong time to discover that you're so terrified you shake so bad you fumble and drop the weapon - and then are frozen where you stand.

You become easy pickings.

No matter what you choose for personal protection -please remember that your greatest weapon is you. Call it your inner bit** if you want.

Cultivate you inner strengths - and your choice of protection (gun, pepper spray) enhances and compliments you.

Does that make sense?

THIS, THIS, THIS! :yes:

Holy heck this thread is a whopper. All I say is what JSwan already said. Follow your gut and keep your head held high. Predators go after those who show weakness, plain and simple. Maaaany years ago I did several stints in some REALLy rough ghettos. I'm not talking a suburban kids vision of "economic depressed areas". I am talking about really real ghettos. I never once felt any real fear, I refuse to live in fear even if I am in a scary situation. I walked around like I OWNED the place. Fear is something we ALLOW other people to create in us.

So their I was all of 21 years old, white, female, five foot five and all of 125 pounds. I would put on my walking boots, pull on my back pack and head out the door to the liquor store, or bodega or laundry mat on foot with a shovel handle in my hand. It was my walking stick of choice. The walking stick was not to "beat @ss"(though I would not have hesitated to use it that way) it was to say "I am not afraid to walk through this ghetto" but also DETER any woodbe attacker from CHOOSING me in the first place.

Seriously who in their right mind mugs, jumps or otherwise even TALKS to someone walking down the street (like they OWN the place) carrying a shovel handle? Of course it wasn't even about the shovel handle, I went out plenty WITHOUT it as still no one gave me trouble. It was about my attitude :cool: Even the local "good guys" and "old timers" told me to be careful (they often watched out for the young ladies and kids out and about their rough neighborhood) but were also pleased that I was so strong and confident. That I not only did I refuse to let the negative aspects of the area effect how I felt but also that those "bad people" could not CONVINCE me that I was afraid of them. I ALWAYS listened to that silent warning bell in the back of my mind, even if it was simply a "bad feeling" about a street I had walked down every for the last three months. Even if that feeling made no sense and was completely unwarrented I STILL headed the warning from the 'back of my mind' and took a different path. This is how I stayed safe and this is how I lived a high crime rate area with little direct negative consiquence.

The key word is I LIVED, I did not stop my life or my outings just because their were some sketchy people around. I did not LET those people make me feel like was anything less than a firey strong headed female that could hold my own. Those people could screw off for all I cared and I wasn't afraid to let them know it. I was gonna be dammed if anyone was standing between and the liquor store :lol: Ironicy though the Liquor store owner never seemed the least bit concerned when I walked in carrying a shovel handle, set it against the counter and proceeded to shop, heh. Maybe it's because a girl. . Could I have been attacked? of course. Was I living in a high risk area? Yes. Did I change my life and my emotions on account of other people? Heck no!

Again its about NOT making yourself a victim and the biggest and best weapon you have is your attitude, your mind set and your self confidence:) LISTEN to that little voice in the back of your mind, don't ever ignore it. Go jogging like you are on a mission, give people dirty looks if you don't like the way they are looking at you. Jog like you OWN the whole freak path, enjoy yourself and don't live in FEAR. The biggest thing you can do it let it be known through your body language and self carriage that you are STRONG, healthy and confident. :)

bird4416
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:27 PM
But then I was taught as a child not to play with a gun. I think an adult could be taught the same and find it interesting that a lot of women think that a woman might "get into a dizzy" and drop her gun and shoot herself. Jeez, these women on this board wrestle snakes, back horses, drive tractors, etc., I think they have enough sense to learn gun safety.

Amen sister!

cssutton
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:44 PM
You must clean and oil your gun.

And now most automatics don't jam, years ago, especially the S&W autos jammed on cops, and they had to get away from them.

A nice 38 revolver is an easy gun to load and to carry, snub nosed of course, and easy to clean.

Plus the trigger pull on a revolver (without cocking) is usually sufficient to allow it to be "abused" without firing accidentally. (Our state firearms experts always demonstrated abuse for our juries.)

When riding a horse or walking a dog, it is always good to have whatever weapon (gun, knife, whatever) that you are most comfortable with.

And when riding in a park or public area, as well as walking your dogs, Make friends with your beat cops, there should be 3 beat cops (3 watches) and probably an umbrella car or cop on foot. Make sure the cops know when you are usually there. Talk to them, they want to help you and they want people to like them. Cops can save your life.

A good informative post.

I would add that if you like autos, although it is heavy the 1911 A is pretty reliable If you are careful with your ammo.

It rarely jams and a quick snatch on the action will eject the hang or dud and you are back in the fight.

There was a poll published in the NRA mag of the most popular most liked semi-auto pistols and I forget the exact results but the 1911 was right up at the top of the top 10.

That is amazing when you think about the fact that it was designed before WWI and there have been hundreds of new pistols designed since then, most of which were fads that soon faded away.

It is my pick.

The only drawback I see in it is that in the event of a surprise, it must be cocked for the first shot unless you carry it cocked with the safety on.

CSSJR

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:11 PM
Goodnight all. I had a long day with the manure spreader at the barn and Cloudy had Jason do his teeth, so I'm off for the night to watch the cute "bad" guy on Vampire Diaries, filmed in middle GA. (You must use a silver bullet, not a talon, on vampires, please remember.:lol:)

Remember, if you give a gun to a loved one for Christmas, before putting it in the stocking, make sure the gun is unloaded. And add some apples in there for the horses.

mustangtrailrider
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:46 PM
I absolutely love hearing stories about pulling out guns for self protection and hearing of them jamming. Those are exactly the ones that should not be using guns.

I use my gun regularly. Glock 17 9mm high capacity clip loaded with hollow point. I know my gun. I clean my gun. I oil my gun. With good ammo, it has never jammed. With old crappy ammo, it does jam. I don't use old crappy ammo.

Yes, I was in the woods with a large pack of feral dogs. My dogs did go after them. I didn't need to shoot. They were too far away to do anything about it. If they had been closer, I might have fired a few warning shots, but they ran as soon as my dogs went after them. Yes, I am wary of packs of dogs. That is one reason to carry.

EqTrainer
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:15 PM
I think this might sound really odd but if you are going to buy a gun and learn how to use it, it might be a good idea to go hunting and find out exactly how you do when you are faced with a moving object that you intend to shoot.

I think I could shoot someone calmly and accurately.. because I have shot animals calmly and accurately. No, they were not attacking me but at some point I think it might help to confirm your intent to kill. Because as many people here have said.. don't ever point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them.

I think you really need to be good with the fact that you are holding a weapon that is deadly and to know that is the intention you have behind carrying it/using it. I suspect many people carry a gun thinking they will never need to use it, or that they will threaten someone with it and they will leave. Not a good thing to be thinking, IMO.

Just some random thoughts on carrying guns.

Moderator 1
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:26 PM
We've removed some personal commentary from the thread. This thread is only tenuously related to farm-life, so we may be closing things down shortly. Let's not get too far afield...

Thanks!
Mod 1

katarine
Dec. 4, 2009, 02:13 PM
a small can of wasp spray, brake cleaner, pepper spray, etc are all good, cheap, relatively safe options. Keep your hands free to grab such a device-they make belts with keepers, or maybe a Cashel ankle safe is an idea.


Your most effective option is to carry yourself like you mean business, and listen to your intuition. If something says don't go down THAT path at the park, don't.

I'm at ease with weapons but I don't carry one. I use them around the farm to deal with strays I judge to be beyond saving/starving or too dangerous to trap and take to the pound...so I'm ok with them- but I don't carry one, no. And I live near the what, 5th most dangerous city in the US? So what? Stay out of the rough neighborhoods if life gives you such choices, pay attention and go on with things...

PS anyone wanting to come 'rescue' the pathetic shadow of a dog lurking in the fields by my house, PM me. I'm in Central AL. Harrassing me over dispatching said said dog will not change a thing.

mypaintwattie
Dec. 4, 2009, 02:25 PM
I always have pepper spray with me. As a dog walker it is mostly to prevent or end a dog attack, and let me tell you it works! At the barn I have 2, one on my key chain and the other is loose but has a belt clip. I use this one when I am trail riding or after dark if I am alone. I hope I never have to use it, but being that my boarding barn is in a public park we occasionally have people wandering through.

Sithly
Dec. 4, 2009, 02:33 PM
[edit]

I'm a gun-totin redneck, too (sorta), but I still wouldn't recommend a gun for self-defense. IMO, that's one of the worst reasons to buy one -- unless you're willing to commit to some serious training.

MistyBlue
Dec. 4, 2009, 03:15 PM
We've removed some personal commentary from the thread. This thread is only tenuously related to farm-life, so we may be closing things down shortly. Let's not get too far afield...


Best self protection advice given out on this thread. :yes: :D :yes:
The misinformation amount is staggering and more likely to cause safety issues as oppposed to preventing them.
Signed another concealed carry jerk. But a safe one. ;)

JSwan
Dec. 4, 2009, 03:19 PM
Best self protection advice given out on this thread. :yes: :D :yes:
The misinformation amount is staggering and more likely to cause safety issues as oppposed to preventing them.
Signed another concealed carry jerk. But a safe one. ;)

What - you don't like the terrible joke I posted? Awwww.. come on it was funny......:winkgrin:

MistyBlue
Dec. 4, 2009, 03:25 PM
I did laugh at the joke. :lol: :yes: :lol:

AZ Native
Dec. 4, 2009, 06:45 PM
We've removed some personal commentary from the thread. This thread is only tenuously related to farm-life, so we may be closing things down shortly. Let's not get too far afield...

Thanks!
Mod 1

Thanks for letting it stay. It is very informative not only for life at the farm/ranch but for trail riding and walking dogs. We live in a pretty private area, and of course i trail ride extensively, often alone, so I really like reading folks ideas about self protection. My husband is an awesome shot and will shortly be getting his CC ( he's been through the training ) and I'm probably be going to do the same. I missed the contentious stuff, but appreciate the ideas and views expressed, even though i might agree with some more than others.:)

JSwan, I loved the joke.Bad but funny. I've seen it before but it's been awhile, so it was great to see it again!

Daydream Believer
Dec. 4, 2009, 07:05 PM
Thanks Mod 1. I appreciate you taking that down.

Jswan...the joke WAS funny. I was just trying to make it funnier with my comment about the pepper spray. Sure wasn't meant to be personal. :) None of my comments were meant personally so I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I am extremely safety conscious with firearms and now you know why. :(

For anyone who is curious, I posted a poll on the Appalachian Trail forum and it's 73% of the folks out there do not carry firearms concealed or otherwise to 27% that do. I was a bit surprised that many carried actually but this forum is many very serious lifetime hikers and outdoorsmen/women and not just weekender types or family folks out for a weekend in the mountains...so I suspect the demographics are skewed a bit. Many of these folks voting have thruhiked over 2000 miles in one season at some point and that deserves a lot of respect. It's a long dang ways to walk in six months.

Interestingly, only 10 women have voted out of 97 total...4 carry and 6 don't...so not quite 50/50 but close. I also don't think anywhere near as many women posted as you will actually see on the trail...there were a lot more women out there than that when we hiked in October so I don't think we got a good demographic on who (by gender) is really out there hiking by the poll on this forum. Most women who we saw out there were with someone and not alone...certainly being alone for 2000 miles does add another level of thought to the decision of personal safety.

I'm not sure how relevant that is to any normal population (and to bring this back to horse related) but serious AT hikers are a lot like horse people...independent, stubborn, and strong willed...you have to be stubborn to carry 40 pounds up a mountain on your back...and even more so to add the weight of a weapon and ammunition to that...and that is what stops many from taking a weapon...plus the consensus that you don't really need it.

It has been an interesting topic and I have some nasty tricks to add to my own thanks to Misty Blue's great advice.

Chall
Dec. 4, 2009, 10:25 PM
I didn't read all of the posts (too bad I missed the joke), but to keep this horse related, there are the Scott Hanson self defense on horseback videos
at http://www.horsethink.com/

tpup
Dec. 5, 2009, 07:57 AM
I haven't had time to read all the posts, but can you find a dog-walking buddy? One about one of those loud siren/blow horn thingies? I mean LOUD.

I would also absolutely wear a Road ID on your wrist in case something did happen - not necessarily an attack but anything....put your info, emerg. contact, any allergy info. www.roadid.com

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 5, 2009, 08:13 AM
The whole objective is to be able to safely ride your horse or walk your dogs without fear of being a victim. Whatever OP feels safest with is what she should do. It doesn't take years to learn to shoot safely, we all learned as children from our parents. I've had adult friends who grew up in anti-gun families and when the friends got mugged, they learned to shoot guns by being taught by friends and neighbors.

The police here will train people to shoot. Beware of the private "experts' unless they are recommended by police, as private experts are in it to be paid $, so their training programs are longer than are the police training programs. My aunt went to a police recommended train program In SC when she was widowed and I gave her a handgun, and the training was I think 2 weeks. She lives on a farm. (She's had a handgun now for years and hasn't gotten the "vapors" and had an accident with it yet.)

Remember, the woods and streets and parks should be places of safety, not places where women must be afraid of being attacked. Muggers stay away from places where people defend themselves. If OP wants to carry bear spray or mace or whatever, fine. But the only way to be perfectly safe is to carry a weapon with stopping power and be competent to use it. We sure don't want to be killed by a mugger with our own guns. But we also don't want to be killed because we have no weapon or have a weapon that just irritates the attacker. . The advent of meth smoking in the countryside and crack in the cities has really changed the world as people smoking either drug have scrambled brains and don't stop attacking when they are set on getting a few dollars of yours to pay for their drugs.

All this advice is to make sure that OP is not found DOS.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:18 AM
It doesn't take years to learn to shoot safely, we all learned as children from our parents. I've had adult friends who grew up in anti-gun families and when the friends got mugged, they learned to shoot guns by being taught by friends and neighbors.

I disagree with you in several points here and please don't take my comments personally. :)

I do agree that learning to shoot a gun is relatively easy..the problem is that the "other stuff" that JSwan and Eqtrainer posted about...that which takes time and training to use a gun effectively and safely and to have the right mindset to use it...that's a huge difference. It's no different than someone going to a weekend trimmer course and calling themselves a farrier...Both are scarey but one is potentially lethal rather than just incompetent. The difference is the training and learning and acquired skills over time.

In the military we trained over and over and over on using the correct reactions in certain situations. We were trained in live fire exercises and we constantly had a mean drill sergeant who would have knocked us down if we got stupid and careless with our weapons. You lived that culture for weeks in basic training and then the combat arms folks would live it the rest of their career. You are not talking hunting animals who don't shoot back...you are talking about taking on other people with firearms...that is not something that is easy to learn and just learning to be use a gun is not enough IMO.


If OP wants to carry bear spray or mace or whatever, fine. But the only way to be perfectly safe is to carry a weapon with stopping power and be competent to use it. We sure don't want to be killed by a mugger with our own guns. But we also don't want to be killed because we have no weapon or have a weapon that just irritates the attacker. . The advent of meth smoking in the countryside and crack in the cities has really changed the world as people smoking either drug have scrambled brains and don't stop attacking when they are set on getting a few dollars of yours to pay for their drugs.



You do realize the fallacy of the "perfectly safe" comment you made? Having a gun is no guarantee that you are going to be "perfectly safe" and if you think so, you are fooling yourself. Weren't several police officers that were armed and trained just gunned down in public by one man..taken unawares? One... Anyone taken by surprise can be taken down before they have a chance to pull their gun. Two...You can shoot and miss and still get waxed. Handguns are no where near as accurate as rifles at any distance and much harder to master. Three....You aren't fast enough to react or you froze in fear (that really happens). Four....The Bad guy takes it from you (I've known a few Special Forces guys that were simply amazing in disarming someone.) and turns it on you. Five...if someone is truly psyched out on drugs, bullets may not stop them any more than a taser or pepper spray will.

What I truly believe is that we are not ever truly 100% safe in anything we do. There is calculated risk and certainly safety procedures we can all follow to be as safe as possible. To think though that carrying a firearm makes one "perfectly safe" is just the wrong message to give to anyone who is looking at personal protection.

DownYonder
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:22 AM
Beware of the private "experts' unless they are recommended by police, as private experts are in it to be paid $, so their training programs are longer than are the police training programs.

We were all private citizens who donated our time. Most of us were NRA certified firearms safety instructors, although one of our senior instructors was an ex Army Ranger. The only charge for our students was to rent the range and classroom. Sometimes a student wanted to try something different and they would have to rent something from the range, but we always had so many instructors/range safety officers involved that we pretty much had just about every make, model, and caliber covered. Students did have to provide their own ammo and their own eyes and ears.

Our courses were two hours, two nights a week for two weeks. First night was classroom only, where we started with a discussion about legal/moral ramifications of using a firearm for self defense. This was followed by a discussion about different types of handguns and calibers, and practical safe handling demonstrations. Every student got hands-on time in the classroom with a revolver and a semi-auto - carefully watched by our instructors/RSOs. Second night was classroom for one hour - again discussing safe handling techniques - followed by one hour range time. Every student had a range safety officer with them at all times when on the line. Firearms were checked by our RSOs as the students came into the classroom, again as they entered the range, and again as they exited the firing line. Third night was one hour of legal discussion, often by someone from the DA's office, followed by one hour of range time. Fourth night was one hour of discussions about how to avoid being a victim, with more legal stuff, followed by one hour of range time.

We also offered "add-on" sessions for students wanting more instruction, where one of us would meet the student at the range once each week for the next few weeks. We did not charge for these sessions, either (other than to rent range time).

We no longer do the courses - we are way too far from a range with a classroom to make it practical for us - but my husband still does private instruction to select students - and he still doesn't charge for his time.

DownYonder
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:30 AM
To think though that carrying a firearm makes one "perfectly safe" is just the wrong message to give to anyone who is looking at personal protection.

Agree with you on this. But someone carrying a firearm who is trained and prepared to use it, probably has a greater chance of surviving an attack than someone who is NOT armed. And there is another aspect to this - if you put an assailant down with a gunshot wound, he is usually going to be off the streets - either dead or in the hospital or behind bars. Spraying an assailant with pepper spray only disables him temporarily, and he will quickly be looking for his next victim. There is some thought that you may be doing society a favor by removing these scum from the streets. :lol:

JSwan
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:38 AM
None of my comments were meant personally so I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I am extremely safety conscious with firearms and now you know why. :(


Heck - I never intend to offend anyone but manage to do it anyway. :no:

To keep this farm related, I started a thread a few months ago about having to dispatch a rabid coon I found on my back porch.

(may not have been rabid; could have been distemper but I put it out of its misery.)

Farm/rural life provides many an opportunity to use lethal methods to defend life, limb or property. We can usually (check with the cops and zoning) target practice or shoot skeet or trap in our back yards. (please be polite to your neighbors and try not to bother them with the noise you make)

We've also had to perform emergency euthanasia on wildlife as well as a beloved family pet (a goat).

You know - for those of us who hunt, or have had to use a firearm to kill a wounded animal - I can promise you it's not "easy". We don't just whip out our six shooter and go bam bam bam.

Taking a life is a somber moment. Whether you take that life to provide food for your table, or to end suffering.

Taking a life under extreme stress, when you're afraid, or when the target is moving is EXTREMELY difficult. If you don't know what it's like to shoot a moving target - try skeet, trap or sporting clays. It's not only a lot of fun - it's a tremendous education.

Knowing WHEN to use a firearm is as important as knowing when NOT to use a firearm.

For example - if you need to shoot a rabid coon - where to do shoot it? What type of weapon is appropriate? What if the target is moving? Attacking your dog, child or livestock? What if it is attacking you?

Same with dispatching a predator, such as a coyote. What weapon is appropriate? What constitutes a safe or legal shot?

What you don't want to do is shoot the coyote and end up killing your neighbor who is cutting her grass. That can happen if you use the wrong type of weapon or round. You don't want to shoot a rabid coon and end up with blood spatter on you.

I'm not saying don't purchase a firearm for farm/personal protection - just be smart about it. The reason there are different type of firearms and rounds is because they are all different - different functions, different strengths/weaknesses, and rounds have different purposes.

I am a very pro-gun person and am always delighted when anyone, particularly females, express interest in firearms or personal protection. But please - be smart, be effective, and remember that in terms of personal protection your biggest asset is YOU.


If any of y'all are local I'd be happy to meet you at the gun range. It's hard to break into a new group and new activity - especially one so "masculine" in nature. A friendly face might make you feel less conspicuous.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 5, 2009, 10:10 AM
Agree with you on this. But someone carrying a firearm who is trained and prepared to use it, probably has a greater chance of surviving an attack than someone who is NOT armed. And there is another aspect to this - if you put an assailant down with a gunshot wound, he is usually going to be off the streets - either dead or in the hospital or behind bars. Spraying an assailant with pepper spray only disables him temporarily, and he will quickly be looking for his next victim. There is some thought that you may be doing society a favor by removing these scum from the streets. :lol:

Good points. I am curious though about legalities of shooting someone in self defense...

What about the possibility of facing charges yourself if you do shoot a person in self defense? What if you shoot/kill and there is some question that you were justified in using deadly force? I can think of a number of cases in the news where someone did that, killed some kid/hooligan/tresspasser and then was faced with manslaughter charges. Even cops have strict rules of engagement in using a firearm.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 5, 2009, 10:29 AM
Farm/rural life provides many an opportunity to use lethal methods to defend life, limb or property. . .

Taking a life under extreme stress, when you're afraid, or when the target is moving is EXTREMELY difficult. . . .

I'm not saying don't purchase a firearm for farm/personal protection - just be smart about it.

I agree - which is why, even after ten years on a farm, I still don't have a firearm. Despite growing up with guns in the house, I've never fired one - Daddy and little brother hunted all the time but it wasn't something daughters were encouraged to do.:)

However, I did learn that no one should have a firearm unless s/he's prepared to put in the time and effort to become proficient in its use. And so far, I just haven't found the time.:)

Knock wood, so far I also haven't had an occasion arise where I needed a firearm, either. I have a pack of loud-mouthed dogs so burglars, although we do have them out here in the sticks, pick other places to rob. (I once came home to find one big size twelve footprint on my door and lots of running footprints leading away from it.:lol:)

I have coyotes and a bobcat, but I keep my snack-sized animals indoors (where they can kill mice) and let the wild predators concentrate on keeping my garden free of bunnies and bambi's. Ssssnakessss who turn up where they don't belong are just escorted back to their homes.:)

Once a few years ago a woman was snatched off the road while out walking about a mile from here and never heard from again. But I kind of figure the chances of that happening again are slim - and I always walk with my maremma/BC cross so, again, I just figure someone who wants to snatch an old broad would pick one who doesn't come with seventy-five pounds of humorless canine attached to her hip.

Emergency euthanasia is the big reason I think I really ought to have a gun - I realize that so far I've been very fortunate not to be faced with that situation. But damn - between taking care of a farm and having my own business to run in town, time's a pretty limited resource.

How much time do you suppose the average, mildly-well-coordinated, old broad would need to spend at the firing range to become proficient enough not to be dangerous with a gun?:)

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 5, 2009, 10:33 AM
Good points. I am curious though about legalities of shooting someone in self defense....

*raises hand* oooh, I know this one!:)

One is only justified in using deadly force to repel deadly force.

Not to protect property - you can't shoot someone for trying to steal your TV, or even your horse, dang it.:) So yes, unless a gun is found on the body, there are likely to be questions about the legalities anytime you shoot someone in "self-defense."

cssutton
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:08 AM
You can in Texas.

Rule #1 in any state but Texas is that you do not shoot a criminal in the back or one who is moving away from you in any way showing that he has given up and leaving.

Not even if he is leaving with all of your money or anything else of great value.

Just keeping that in mind will solve 90% of the when to shoot questions.

Of course, the original encounter must be threatening to you or a member of your family. You can't shoot him because he shot your dog.

As for the people on this thread who think that they are perfectly safe because they know how to stick their finger in someone's eye, I would like to point out that most really bad crimes and especially deadly assaults on citizens are performed by repeat criminals.

The exception to that would be family members or close associates who have gone off the edge because of family, employment or property disputes or similar emotional upsets.

So back to that hardened criminal who jumps you in the shopping center parking lot or on your hike in the woods:

Do you really think your finger in the eye is going to stop a guy that has spent time at least once and maybe several times in prison?

Prisons are a jungle much worse than the meanest streets in the worst city in the US. Graduates of that school are not going to be sent running to momma because you stuck your little pinky in their eye.

Anyone who believes that he/she can handle one of those guys barehanded is living in a dream world.

That does not mean you must carry or that you must hide in the house. It just means that you should be realistic.

Being realistic first means: Stop giving bad advice to the gullible. A finger won't get it.

Second: Each person has to decide for him/herself how much risk they are willing to take, but take the risk with a realistic understanding of how much risk is involved.

But just get real.

We do that every time we drive, every time we get on an unbroke horse, every time we allow elective surgery, etc.

Certainly you should not give up. Try to fight, but if the ruckus you make does not bring help you will not win.

CSSJR

JSwan
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:23 AM
How much time do you suppose the average, mildly-well-coordinated, old broad would need to spend at the firing range to become proficient enough not to be dangerous with a gun?:)


Well - if you have zero experience with firearms the first step is taking a class at your local gun range. There, you will find certified instructors that will teach you how the basics. How to safely load, fire, unload and clean a firearm. How "good" you are will probably depend upon how much effort you put into it.

If you want to develop proficiency, or just practice, firing ranges often have memberships available (and often offer law enforcement or other types of discounts)

If you just want to practice and have fun at the same time - you cannot go wrong with skeet, trap or sporting clays. It's a safe, controlled environment in which you can practice (with a shotgun), and really, it's a fun activity.

How much time? I don't know. Varies from person to person.

If I was to compare it to horse sports - I'd say more time than it takes to learn how to post a trot, but not as much time as it takes to perfect your tempi changes. :D

MistyBlue
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:40 AM
Anyone who believes that he/she can handle one of those guys barehanded is living in a dream world.

That does not mean you must carry or that you must hide in the house. It just means that you should be realistic.

Being realistic first means: Stop giving bad advice to the gullible. A finger won't get it.


Welcome to my dream world then. 6 of my students have stopped crimes against themselves with the defense classes I teach and I have twice. My sisters twice. My oldest daughter once.
FWIW, one of the times myself I was carrying. He wasn't. Police officers aren't thrilled when you shoot a purse snatcher. But they don't care overly much if you bruise them up a bit. ;)
But then my experience might be questionable. I've only volunteered and worked through the local PDs teaching self defense for 15 years and have been a firearms instructor for 18 years. The classes through the PD have ex-cons who also teach now.
I might not be the most learned or most well rounded person, but for firearms, self defense, zoning, lobbying and rehabbing North American wildlife I do have quite a bit of experience and certifications. Except for horses and cooking...that's pretty much all I have ever done.
Oh, I'm decent at crossword puzzles too. Haven't found that to be overly useful though IRL.

DownYonder
Dec. 5, 2009, 12:38 PM
*raises hand* oooh, I know this one!:)

One is only justified in using deadly force to repel deadly force.

Not to protect property - you can't shoot someone for trying to steal your TV, or even your horse, dang it.:) So yes, unless a gun is found on the body, there are likely to be questions about the legalities anytime you shoot someone in "self-defense."

There are always questions about legalities when you shoot someone in self-defense, whether or not the perp has a gun. You have to 1) be able to convince the police, the DA, and a jury (if it comes to that), that you were in reasonable "fear for your life", and 2) the crime scene has to back you up. IOW, you can't shoot someone in the back as they are running away and claim self defense without there being serious repercussions. But if a 6'4" guy is coming at little ol' 5'4" me with evil intent, there aren't too many DAs in my state that would prosecute me if I shoot him in the front of his body at reasonable close range - whether or not he is armed. Again, the key is that I would have to be able to convince everyone that I had every expectation of being killed or done great bodily harm.

But wow, we have really strayed far from the OP's original question about whether to carry a gun while walking her dogs!

Daydream Believer
Dec. 5, 2009, 02:09 PM
But wow, we have really strayed far from the OP's original question about whether to carry a gun while walking her dogs!

Not really....I think it is very relevant to the decision of what sort of self protection to carry. Real life is not like the movies where you can blast anyone and never face consequences over it. In real life, people make mistakes, miss shots, etc....the good guy does not always win. The pros and cons need to be looked at to help someone make a choice. This topic is just as appropriate for any horse person on trail rides, around the farm, commuting, etc...so I do think it is relevant and hope the mods will let it stay up.

When it is and when it isn't appropriate to use deadly force is a big point of deciding what weapon to carry as well as state laws. Killing someone over taking your purse may seem like fair play to the person attacked but not always in the eyes of the law. Personally I think shooting someone who killed my dog is very appropriate but then I think of my dogs as family members and not possessions. :no:

I agree with Misty...knowing some self defense moves can be amazingly effective in close quarters. I've been in a few classes and you can incapacitate someone very easily if you know how..and yes a little petite woman can take down a big man if you know what you are doing.

cssutton
Dec. 5, 2009, 07:13 PM
Welcome to my dream world then. 6 of my students have stopped crimes against themselves with the defense classes I teach and I have twice. My sisters twice. My oldest daughter once.
FWIW, one of the times myself I was carrying. He wasn't. Police officers aren't thrilled when you shoot a purse snatcher. But they don't care overly much if you bruise them up a bit. ;)
But then my experience might be questionable. I've only volunteered and worked through the local PDs teaching self defense for 15 years and have been a firearms instructor for 18 years. The classes through the PD have ex-cons who also teach now.
I might not be the most learned or most well rounded person, but for firearms, self defense, zoning, lobbying and rehabbing North American wildlife I do have quite a bit of experience and certifications. Except for horses and cooking...that's pretty much all I have ever done.
Oh, I'm decent at crossword puzzles too. Haven't found that to be overly useful though IRL.

All 11 of them ex -cons?

Murderers, rapists,gang members?

Meanest of the mean?

CSSJR

MistyBlue
Dec. 5, 2009, 08:08 PM
4 had done previous jail time, 3 were active gang members, 1 was trying to get into a gang, 2 had previous minors and 1 was apparently trying out crime as a new hobby. He had a clean record.
As for meanest of the mean, erm, I'm sure there are "meaner" folks out there. There always are.
But for the meanest of the mean...a "finger in the eye" isn't exactly the game plan, had you read the previous posts you'd see that serious self defense classes do not include the Larry Moe and Curly Eye Boink manuevers. Same classes taught to prison guards...and by some prison guards. And they do deal with cons, it's kinda their job. :yes: A tad bit more involved than what can be found at the local YMCA.
My youngest just started as a junior instructor for milder versions volunteering in other schools doing so. She's 16. She's also versed in firearms, have a living room full of her trophies. Her father, a PO and SWAT leader, as well as myself prefer her to not use the firearm except for in extenuating circumstances. As she well knows.
Life isn't a spaghetti western or an episode of CSI or Law and Order. Carrying and being educated with a firearm is one thing. Using it is quite another and many times has very serious legal repercussions.
It's irresponsible to tell unknown people on a BB online to run out and get one for self protection.
JMHO.

DownYonder
Dec. 6, 2009, 07:19 AM
It's irresponsible to tell unknown people on a BB online to run out and get one for self protection.


I guess I would have to re-read this entire thread to be sure, but IIRC, most of the people advocating firearms on this thread have also advocated appropriate training.

Also, I believe that anyone with any sense would realize that they need to understand safety fundamentals when purchasing their first firearm. Furthermore, darned near every reputable gun store or dealer I know has always strongly suggested firearms education when an obvious novice comes in to look at guns.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 6, 2009, 07:54 AM
I guess I would have to re-read this entire thread to be sure, but IIRC, most of the people advocating firearms on this thread have also advocated appropriate training.

Also, I believe that anyone with any sense would realize that they need to understand safety fundamentals when purchasing their first firearm. Furthermore, darned near every reputable gun store or dealer I know has always strongly suggested firearms education when an obvious novice comes in to look at guns.

Exactly!

OP should ask cops and gun store operators and try out guns and find out if she is going to be a good candidate for a gun, or not.

It does seem that a lot of people who say they are gun experts don't think OP should learn to use a gun.:confused: That's kind of like a ottb owner saying her horse is great, but that no one else should get one because they are not going to be able to learn to ride a TB. (I encourage OP to also get a TB if she doesn't have one already, as well as a hot WB too, if she checks up on them and decides she can handle one or the other.)

Either way, OP, you decide what to do, get some ideas from cops IRL, not experts on a bulletin board.

ETA: Part of the whole fallacy about guns is that they are "too dangerous" for women to use. Tell that to the women who settled the west and to the women in the French resistance. And shooting a gun is "too masculine??" You can wear miniskirts and heels and have long blonde hair and carry a weapon in your Chanel purse. Just have to have purse big enough for your cell and cuffs and gun. Guys will fall all over themselves at the range to help you target shoot.

yellow-horse
Dec. 6, 2009, 08:58 PM
I am all for shootin folks but please keep in mind having a gun and being able to use the gun effectively are 2 different things, as pointed out it's hard to shoot something. This is where i think a self defense class is helpful, it allows your body to react to a threat without over thinking it.
That being said to make this again horse related, a few months ago in my county we had several odd occurances, myself and my neighbor both had loose horses in the middle of the night and she had equipment stolen out of her barn. We all were home when this happend, my other neighbor was outside at 2 am in the same 24 hour period and saw a car coming down her drive with the lights out, when she turned her proch light on the car backed out fast. My situation was my horses were loose and one got hit by a car. The the gate was opened, the sheriff insisted I must have left it open but I have several gates and this one is used maybe tops once a month and I hadn't used it for weeks. My neighbors horses were out and there was no gate left open. My horse is fine by theway. So we all figured it was the same person. So since we all have guns we asked the sheriff a few questions since it sometimes takes a good 1/2 hour for the police to get here, can we shoot the dude next time. The sheriff went through all the reasons why shooting the dude would not be defensible unless he was in our home and threatening to kill us. I think shooting someone in self defense is tricky.
So after the talk with the sheriff, I would defend myself anyway I could if my life was threatened but unless you can pretty clearly prove that, you can't shoot folks because you're scared or being robbed.

Falconfree
Dec. 6, 2009, 10:41 PM
What about the possibility of facing charges yourself if you do shoot a person in self defense? What if you shoot/kill and there is some question that you were justified in using deadly force? I can think of a number of cases in the news where someone did that, killed some kid/hooligan/tresspasser and then was faced with manslaughter charges. Even cops have strict rules of engagement in using a firearm.

The laws vary from state to state. Understanding your state's laws is an integral part of learning to responsibly carry a firearm (or even owning one). Here in Florida we have a book called "Florida Firearms" written by a firearms lawyer that does a fantastic job of explaining our ridiculously complicated laws in plain language. Maybe your farrier can recommend a similar book in your state? There are also some excellent internet forums that can help you find different resources, such as Threat Focused (yes, I'm a Brownie fan, he is an amazing teacher) and maybe a state concealed carry forum. I know several states that have very good state gun forums.

The other thing I wanted to throw out there is that shooting is fun. Certainly, it is a serious thing, especially when training for self defense. However, target shooting really is a /lot/ of fun. I've taken several gal pals shooting before and they were all surprised to find that shooting is actually a fun hobby. :)

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 7, 2009, 03:32 PM
Re: self-defense

Yes state laws do vary, but also so do grand juries (and juries if you get that far).

In most states, "mistake of fact" is a defense, i.e., if you reasonable believe (that is the reasonable belief of a reasonable man or woman, as determined by a jury of your peers) that you are being attacked, then you are not responsible, even if the person did not intent to attack you. Best example is the spouse who comes into house in middle of night and is killed by spouse who fears he/she is burglar.......however a lot of such cases are really murders in disguise.

And then grand juries as well as juries also have their own unspoken (and not laws) rules such as the 2 question rule on rural juries: (1) who got killed? and (2) did he deserve killing? Remember the old case on 60 minutes when an entire town in Tenn. withnessed the bully getting killed but no one could ID the local killer?

Last summer the grand jury here in my county, Chatham, no billed the killing of a 14 yoa who had stolen a truck. The owner of the truck and his best friend rode around looking for the stolen truck, found it, shot and killed the 14 yoa who was driving the truck, were arrested, and their case was no billed by the grand jury. This is an extreme example of the vagaries of the judicial system. We had prosecutors in Atlanta who gave probation (or dead dockets/nolle prosequi) to people who killed and should have gotten lots of jail time and because the evidence was overwhelming. Lazy prosecutors.

So if you "reasonable believe" that you (or another person) are in danger of serious bodily harm, you may use deadly force to defend yourself in the eyes of the law. I'd worry less about what happens to me after an incident than what would happen to me if I didn't react to an imminent thread. (One of the cases that struck down the death penalty in the USA many years ago involved a Michigan woman whose car broke down in rural GA on 75 and 2 guys broke into her locked car, took her off, raped her, beat her, broke her jaw but still made her perform oral sodomy on them, and left her for dead in the woods. Fortunately a hitchhiker that those guys had dropped off before the attack had called the cops to say they might go back and get the college student on her way to vacation in Florida where her husband already had gone.) This case poses the question to the martial arts experts of self defense: How do you fight off 2 or more attackers?

Just remember, whatever self defense tactic you use, make sure you do not just incite the perpetrator more.........you can turn a robber into a killer by using a method of defense that will hurt but not stop his attack. Hence my reference to a gun being the best way to stop someone from hurting you. I do think I would be "perfectly safe" if I shot an attacker 8x (I have a small "ladies' gun:lol:) with my glock 45 cal. Or with 6 shots from my little snub nose colt cobra detective special. Both also good defense for riding horses thru the woods and if walking into a convenience store robbery situation. (a woman worker in a rural convenience store was shot but lived, during an armed robbery here 2 yrs ago between my house and the barn.)

I don't think people can fight off a single attacker if he is male and big and muscular or anyone on drugs, much less 2 or more attackers.

I have ridden my horses out by myself since I was a child. I think that protection that will prevent injury or death to my horse and to me is essential. Remember the woman in Canada who died when riding in a forest with her 2 sons and a cougar jumped onto one son on his horse? The woman bravely got the cougar off of her youngest child, but died while her kids ran for help. She didn't have a weapon. And yes, there are wildlife camera photos of a Florida panther within 30 miles of the boarding barn. Plus all those wild dogs.

threedogpack
Dec. 7, 2009, 09:05 PM
My goodness.

What a thread.

first suggestion (and I believe it was suggested before) to the OP, if you feel unsafe....choose somewhere else to go. Prevention is always better than fallout.

Good luck with your decision, I am certain that having a gun on my person would not help me at all but I probably could taze someone (and for those who think Sumdude will get right back up.....probably not. It's an involuntary reaction and an intense one), if I could get it out and point it I'm certain I could use pepper spray and there is not a doubt in my mind that if I had a walking stick, club, umbrella or some pointy or heavy object I could fling, throw, bash or swing it. Those objects could very likely be taken from me also but would likely not be used any more than another heavy object against me. I think a perp in a rage *would* use a gun against me and I'm pretty sure (given my reaction to the one time I watch a good friend hunt doves) I would have trouble aiming, shooting and not freezing up if I had a gun. Therefore a gun would be somewhere below #1 on my list of weapons of choice.

As for people harming themselves by accident or otherwise.....in 21 years of working a dispatch desk in Smalltown USA, we've had one murder/suicide, lots and lots of suicides, and a fair number homocides. Most had to do with love (or leaving), or money. None due to attacking an individual in an isolated area. We have quite a scary amount of drugs coming and going too but for the most part, the dealers want to remain nameless and faceless so they don't jump Every Dudette that wanders by. We have had probably 10-15 people injured by guns misfiring or by accident per year....most injuries were not serious, tho one young man lost an eye (what is that saying....it's all fun till someone loses an eye?).

Guns just would not be my first choice for self defense.

JSwan
Dec. 8, 2009, 08:12 AM
We were all private citizens who donated our time. Most of us were NRA certified firearms safety instructors, although one of our senior instructors was an ex Army Ranger.

I agree - and I find the assertion that people are only in it for the money to be unfair, not to mention inaccurate.

Whether the person is NRA certified, IHEA certified, or has taken other certification courses, they person does it because they want to help educate others.

They're not out to bamboozle an unsuspecting public, or to make a living out of it.

Usually the only charges are for materials, and/or rental of a classroom. The instructor usually donates his/her time and effort. And it does requires a great deal of time and effort to prepare, organize and present classes. Usually these people also have a full-time job, and a family to care for.

There are plenty of resources available for people who would like to learn how to safely handle and fire any sort of weapon.

And I'm really glad there are people out there happy to help educate people. An educated owner means fewer accidents, more responsible ownership, and a safer home.

Nojacketrequired
Dec. 8, 2009, 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie
6 foot tall cops who are taught self defense and take down courses will tell you that a mentally ill suspect and whip 2 or 3 cops,


Well said...this is the scary part.

Um, no actually.

The SCARY part is that one of the most "advanced" countries in the world also has one one of the highest rates of this type of random, personal crime!

The SCARY part is that your rights and freedoms are NOT being taken away by the gov't as much as they are being taken away by the criminal element.

A person is taking THREE dogs for a walk in the middle of the day in what seems to be a public park and they have to ARM themselves and have a PLAN against being attacked because it is a definite possibility?

And not one person I've read so far has even questioned that they might be over-reacting in thinking they need protection, so I am assuming that this isn't beyond the norm for most people?

THAT is the scary part, IMO.

NJR

PS...Thank you God that I live in Canada where I can walk my dog at night, and if I slip and fall a stranger will likely take me to the hospital and I won't have to worry about whether I can afford it or not.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 8, 2009, 09:34 AM
As for people harming themselves by accident or otherwise.....in 21 years of working a dispatch desk in Smalltown USA, we've had one murder/suicide, lots and lots of suicides, and a fair number homocides. Most had to do with love (or leaving), or money. None due to attacking an individual in an isolated area. We have quite a scary amount of drugs coming and going too but for the most part, the dealers want to remain nameless and faceless so they don't jump Every Dudette that wanders by. We have had probably 10-15 people injured by guns misfiring or by accident per year....most injuries were not serious, tho one young man lost an eye (what is that saying....it's all fun till someone loses an eye?).



Thanks for sharing your real life experiences in dispatching emergencies. I do suspect that there is an awful lot more hype on violent crime by the media scaring people into a frenzy of fear. A good example is that murder on the Appalachian Trail in 2008 that was publicized and hyped to death (no pun intended). My God...in any US city in any week there are probably 15 times more gruesome murders but that one murder of that young woman was publicized to the point where it sounded like every woman on the trail was in grave danger.

As someone else said on the AT forum..draw a line of 2200 miles anywhere across the US and you will intersect the sites of at least 8 murders....the trail is no different. Certainly there is danger out there but you are far more likely to fall off a cliff than be murdered. I suspect the same for walking dogs in broad daylight in public parks. You are much more likely to get hit by a car than mugged, raped or murdered.

cssutton
Dec. 8, 2009, 09:37 AM
So Canada is Never Never Land?

Depends on whose statistics.

None of the following is intended to prove anything other than liars figure and figures lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada

Tells us that Canada is truly paradise where one can walk without fear.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/24/150547.shtml

Gives a totally different picture.

I have no idea which is more nearly correct. I suspect that neither are very close to correct.

In either case, it matters not how many others are dead or alive if you are the one that is dead.

I wish that this board had the same rules as some of the other boards I frequent; namely that each poster must use his/her real name. On boards where real names are required and the names are checked by the moderator against the ISP address for legitimacy, there is a lot less BS, misrepresentation of fact and generally a higher level of respect for the posters that submit information.

CSSJR

Protect your privacy. Replace Google with IXQUICK at www.ixquick.com.


If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor's right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 8, 2009, 09:45 AM
Um, no actually.

And not one person I've read so far has even questioned that they might be over-reacting in thinking they need protection, so I am assuming that this isn't beyond the norm for most people?



No several of us suggested that wanting a gun to walk the dogs in broad daylight was overreacting to the potential danger.. Those of us who did suggest she was overreacting were beaten down pretty hard in the early discussion.

Despite the tone of this thread, there are many many Americans who go about their lives without weapons and constant fear. I am one of them. Certainly there are places I would not go alone...like a bad neighborhood at night but I'd have no problems taking my dogs to Newport News Park and walking them alone in daylight.

My working student is from the city and grew up in a rough neighborhood in Newport News. I was talking to her about this thread and she was shocked that so many people suggested carrying a gun to the OP. Her comment was that even in her neighborhood, you were fine walking your dog if you stayed away from the known drug dealer's corners and walked in daylight. She said the dog was a deterrent on it's own...she has a Chow.

She said a gun would just draw unwanted attention to you from the gangs and you'd become a target if anyone found out you had one. She does have a dog and she did walk it several times a day in this neighborhood...so she's knows what she's talking about. I found her perspective interesting. Here's a kid that grew up in a place where most people on this forum would not want to live...ever...and she's against guns. Funny isn't it?

threedogpack
Dec. 8, 2009, 04:21 PM
"I wish that this board had the same rules as some of the other boards I frequent; namely that each poster must use his/her real name. "

Holly Wood, and yes that is my real name. Threedogpack is how you know me here.

threedogpack
Dec. 8, 2009, 04:39 PM
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;4544257]Thanks for sharing your real life experiences in dispatching emergencies. I do suspect that there is an awful lot more hype on violent crime by the media scaring people into a frenzy of fear.
QUOTE]

I only know my own personal experience. I live and work in a rural area, at least 30 miles from even a moderately sized city. We have national forests, lots of undeveloped land and lots and lots of seasonal camps (read....opportunities if a perp desired). I have never recieved a call for a rape victim at any camp. Ever. Lots and lots of burglaries, but no rapes or assaults.

I took an informal survey of the men and women I work with asking if they felt a gun was a good choice and how many incidents of daytime rapes they have investigated. They all felt that if you have to ask what to use, a gun would be a poor choice. Out of the 12 I asked the 2 questions of, only one had investigated a daylight rape. That took place in a home, not in a park and was committed by some young men who knew the victim.

*shrug* your mileage may vary depending on the source you use and slant that is used to publish it. Me, if I were worried about walking my dog in public even in the early morning, I'd change where/how I walked my dog. Prevention and all that.

Nojacketrequired
Dec. 8, 2009, 07:51 PM
I wish that this board had the same rules as some of the other boards I frequent; namely that each poster must use his/her real name. On boards where real names are required and the names are checked by the moderator against the ISP address for legitimacy, there is a lot less BS, misrepresentation of fact and generally a higher level of respect for the posters that submit information.

Uh, sure, whatever. The name is Lisa Turner.

And YOUR info is laughable and comes from Wikipedia, and someone who seems to be taking their information from a pro-fire-arms politician.

Yes, there is crime here, but to have to be afraid to go out into a park in daylight with my dogs? There is seriously something wrong with that. I'm glad someone corrected me to say that others had expressed surprise earlier in the thread, as I'd hate to think that the majority of people in one of the greatest countries in the world feel themselves to be veritable prisoners to the crime element in their society.

And besides....Canadians do TO have guns! :lol:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/police-storm-toronto-office-for-lego-gun/article1387652/

NJR

cssutton
Dec. 8, 2009, 08:11 PM
That is correct.

The pie in the sky numbers that leads one to believe that Canada is Disneyland came from Wikipedia.

The more realistic appraisal came from a more conservative source.

I also posted the caveat that I vouch for neither.

By the way, Canadians have long guns. They are not allowed to own pistols with rare exceptions.

As for your comment that I am some sort of a politician with an agenda, the OP asked a question. The original replies were posted to make her aware of the available choices.

Whether any of that advice was political or not, I have no idea.

CSSJR

Protect your privacy. Replace Google with IXQUICK at www.ixquick.com.


If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor's right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

Nojacketrequired
Dec. 8, 2009, 10:17 PM
cssutton, I wasn't clear I guess...


As for your comment that I am some sort of a politician with an agenda, the OP asked a question. The original replies were posted to make her aware of the available choices.

The politician with an agenda was the one quoted in that piece entitled something like...."Canada Has 50% More Crime than the US Does...". I wasn't referring to you.

As an aside, do you NOT find it sad and frightening that you live in a "world leader" country and yet citizens are afraid to go to the PARK without some sort of protection????

I find that a perplexing and disheartening comment on a great many of societies problems.

NJR

While we're tossing out unsubstantiated websites to back up our theories, here's one.... http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

PS...did anyone read my link? It's funny, people!

cssutton
Dec. 8, 2009, 10:32 PM
OK. You might have something there.

Yes it is depressing, but the fact that is depressing does not make it less true.

I live in an area where people did not even lock their doors at night or when they left the house for the entire day until recent years.

When I was in college, I hitch hiked regularly. I had a few exciting rides, but I made it.

Anyone who hitch hiked that often today would get hurt.

However, it is not the fault of those of us who are wary. It is the fault of parents who do not teach their kids anything.

It is the fault of those who allow drugs and gangs in their community.

It is the fault of a public school system where the states and the feds have everything to say about how schools will operate and the parents have no say.

I was in the very beginnings of state operated schools. There was a big difference.

But that is being political. It does not resolve the question the OP asked.

Dreamers see the world as it should be. To survive, one needs to see the world as it is.

CSSJR

cssutton
Dec. 8, 2009, 10:43 PM
cssutton, I wasn't clear I guess...



The politician with an agenda was the one quoted in that piece entitled something like...."Canada Has 50% More Crime than the US Does...". I wasn't referring to you.

As an aside, do you NOT find it sad and frightening that you live in a "world leader" country and yet citizens are afraid to go to the PARK without some sort of protection????

I find that a perplexing and disheartening comment on a great many of societies problems.

NJR

While we're tossing out unsubstantiated websites to back up our theories, here's one.... http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

PS...did anyone read my link? It's funny, people!

I don't want to go any further down this road because it is getting too far from the original thread but I do need to make the comment that many of thee crime comparisons between different countries are misleading.

For instance, Muslims can kill their wives or daughters and it is not a crime.

There have been many articles published accusing the British government of not reporting crime accurately and hiding their raw data from the public. True? I have no idea, but I make the point that laws and political manipulation vary from country to country.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 9, 2009, 08:12 AM
Um, no actually.

The SCARY part is that one of the most "advanced" countries in the world also has one one of the highest rates of this type of random, personal crime!

The SCARY part is that your rights and freedoms are NOT being taken away by the gov't as much as they are being taken away by the criminal element.

A person is taking THREE dogs for a walk in the middle of the day in what seems to be a public park and they have to ARM themselves and have a PLAN against being attacked because it is a definite possibility?

And not one person I've read so far has even questioned that they might be over-reacting in thinking they need protection, so I am assuming that this isn't beyond the norm for most people?

THAT is the scary part, IMO.

NJR

PS...Thank you God that I live in Canada where I can walk my dog at night, and if I slip and fall a stranger will likely take me to the hospital and I won't have to worry about whether I can afford it or not.

Oh yes! See our culture in the states below you has always been violent. I assume that the British sent more than just debtors over here to establish colonies, and that some of those religious freedom dudes had some juvie records in the UK.:lol:
The reality is here that people are afraid of the criminals instead of vice versa. We have the "take back the streets nights" all over, but then cops are stationed around so we won't get mugged while doing so.
I did not believe my parents about crime (and we lived in a "good" area way out of town.....no place is safe) till a woman over at Isle of Hope was raped and robbed one morning when I was about 8 or 9 yoa. And when I went to work with cops, yikes, serial rapists aren't mentioned because it might affect the economy of the tourist industry? Uh forget about all the GA state students who were being raped and robbed because the city wanted to not mention crime.
What I have always really disliked is that we women (especially when I was young) were the main targets of predators. I want to be able to walk my dogs and ride my horse wherever I want to, on public property.
It's not my duty to find a "safe" place, it is the duty of others to obey the law. Hence the idea to use whatever means necessary (and old civil rights term) to attain the right to be free from being a crime victim.
Shrinks have long discussed the mentality of Americans for violence. We live here and must live with the violence, or change things by making criminals think twice before they attack.

Moderator 1
Dec. 9, 2009, 08:53 AM
We're going to close the thread at this point, as the topic's gotten very general vs. being farm-related.

Thanks!
Mod 1