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Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 1, 2009, 04:53 PM
I have weighed in all pros and cons of breeding and I have decided that yes, I am going to breed my mare. I love her and I want a baby from her. She has an exceptional personality and is my once in a life time horse. I will never sell this foal(unless its going to make me a ton of money), so I know that no matter what this foal comes out to be (even just a trail horse) it will have a life time home. Please no one try to talk me out of breeding because I have done all my research and what not and breeding my mare is what i want.

I want to breed her to Benno's Dream (I think). Here is a link to him and I was just wondering what everyone thought of him. My horse has a ton of jump in her, but what keeps her back in eventing is her movement for dressage, so i have picked a pony with exceptional dressage movement so I believe they will have a decent baby together.

Here it is! THanks

http://www.throughconnection.com/BennosDream.html

deltawave
Dec. 1, 2009, 05:43 PM
Well, is he a good match for your mare? Conformation-wise, does he complement her build? Does he have traits that are very, very good that match up against her not-as-good traits? Is his temperament exceptional, and does he throw foals with the same temperament? How have his foals held up to competition, and are any of them eventers?

And why do you want a pony? :confused:

I certainly am not trying to talk you out of breeding, but does anyone but yourself think the mare is worth breeding? Trainer? Judges? Trusted horsepeople? I don't know too many people who don't LOVE their mares; I LOVE my mare, but she hasn't earned her place in the gene pool yet. :) If you put your mare in a lineup of "potential broodmares", would you choose her? Conformation excellent? Soundness? Trainability? Movement? The mare should be chosen with the same care as the stallion--you can find lovely broodmares for lease if what you want is a baby. :yes:

Anyway, FWIW the pony is adorable. I wouldn't choose him for an eventing sire, but that doesn't mean much--I'm not looking to breed a horse any time soon. My mare, much as I adore her, has a LONG way to go before she earns the right to be copied. :)

Scaramouch
Dec. 1, 2009, 05:59 PM
If you posted a conformation shot of your mare, it might help people here to evaluate your stallion choice. :yes:

ThirdCharm
Dec. 1, 2009, 06:20 PM
A conformation shot and video of the mare would be helpful.

Why a pony if you want to event?

Not to be snarky, but two days ago you were jobless... do you need another mouth to feed?

Jennifer

Hilary
Dec. 1, 2009, 06:47 PM
I committed ALL the breeding sins (bred horse with lameness issue who was not proven at anything besides losing shoes).

My advice to you is make sure the stallion has good feet and an excellent temperament. If you want a pony, breed for a pony. breed for one with spots and three tails if you want to, but make sure he's easy to work with. The stallion I chose for my mare had fantastic feet and passed them on - Star has lost about 3 shoes in her lifetime. However, he also passed on some temperament issues I am less enthusiastic about. Had I known about them, I would have chosen a different stallion.

Breeding is an incredibly rewarding experience - and you learn a ton - from the first heat cycle tracking to all those foal "firsts" it's probaly one of the best experiences you can have as a horseowner and trainer.

JER
Dec. 1, 2009, 06:50 PM
My horse has a ton of jump in her, but what keeps her back in eventing is her movement for dressage...

Really?

Could you link to your mare's USEA record here or at least describe her eventing experience?

poltroon
Dec. 1, 2009, 06:53 PM
There is a pretty strong tradition of successful event horses that are part pony, especially when the pony is Connemara.

A 14.2 German Riding Pony is truly just a short warmblood; if you're not looking for 16.2+ in the baby, no reason a pony can't be a good choice.

Meredith Clark
Dec. 1, 2009, 06:58 PM
A conformation shot and video of the mare would be helpful.

Why a pony if you want to event?

Not to be snarky, but two days ago you were jobless... do you need another mouth to feed?

Jennifer

:lol:

There's nothing funny about being jobless but sometimes I wonder if people actually read what I (or anyone else) writes on here, you obviously take notes :winkgrin:

back to OP: I don't care much for the stallion and I hate seeing cheesy pictures of horse's rearing.

yellow rose eventing
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:20 PM
An opinion and some advice...

I didn't look at the stallion, so wont comment on that, except... why a pony... anyway.

Breeding is serious business. You need to make sure you have a lot of time to devote to this foal. It's not a fairytale... they don't just pop out and then 3 or 4 years later you're on their back.. be experienced in breaking and training before you pop one out on the ground. Or be prepared to pay someone. We just had our first homebred this year and he just sucks the energy, time and money right out of me!

Ajierene
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:13 PM
:lol:

There's nothing funny about being jobless but sometimes I wonder if people actually read what I (or anyone else) writes on here, you obviously take notes :winkgrin:

back to OP: I don't care much for the stallion and I hate seeing cheesy pictures of horse's rearing.

Now I want to go back and find that thread!

As far as the stallion goes - he looks alright, not much detail in his performance and at his age there should be.

No idea what your mare is like, so no idea if he he would be a good match. You need to figure that out and make sure even if this resulting pony can only ever trail ride, you won't pawn it off on someone else.

I don't mind people breeding a less than perfect mare to the best stallion they can for a keeper foal, BUT, you HAVE to be responsible for the foal's entire life somehow - including provisions in case something happens to you. I think it is more important for someone looking to sell a horse that the mare be perfect, a greater chance of getting a good foal with the abilities sought after in the market.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:16 PM
Okay, I will try to answer everyone, but if I leave anyone out, I am sorry.

I am not breeding for two more years. I will have a job when I breed and have enough money put away to cover any unexpected vet bills that may occur if the foal or mare have any problems.

I am breeding to a pony because my mare has never had a foal and I want her first (possible only) birth to go as smoothly as possible. I do not need a big horse because I am small and if I want to go to the upper levels I will either go on my mare or if she cant do it then I will buy. I dont expect my horse to produce an upper level horse no matter what I breed her to. There fore, the pony will do just fine for what I want.

My mare has not competed above BN, but we have schooled training and some prelim XC and stadium jumps, but with our dressage we are not ready to compete at training yet.. plus I am not ready to compete there yet. I have ridden with a few different trainers and all have told me that my horse will easily do well at training/prelim level including Bill Hoos and I value his opinion.

I have owned my mare since she was 11 months old and had never had a hand on here, and I did all the training. So I am very familar with what goes into training and taking care of a baby. I have also worked with green horses.. so I have that background as well. I have the time and knowledge and trainer(s) to get the foal trained. I am not going into this blindly.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30131852&l=1e200321e9&id=1510860127
Here is the best conformation shot I could get of her. She also does open shows in showmanship :)

eponacowgirl
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:48 PM
I am not breeding for two more years. I will have a job when I breed and have enough money put away to cover any unexpected vet bills that may occur if the foal or mare have any problems.




C, I'm really not trying to pick on you, honest, but just remember you said that two years from now. Having a job doesn't automatically= extra money.

And I'm not in love with the stallion for your girl, either. I think it would be a good idea to breed her to something a little bit lighter and finer boned. Something looking more like a TB/welsh if you're going pony.

Bravestrom
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:54 PM
just another pony option for you - if that is what you are looking at - hilltop has a beautiful german riding pony.

you follow your path - I hate it when people go outside of the question - you only asked what people thought of the stallion - and that is what people should have answered.

Don't get sidetracked. I follow a different path - a path I want to follow - and I have had a few people try to pooh-pooh me - I have my goal and will stick to it - opinions on the stallion is one thing - opinions on what you are doing don't belong on this post.

deltawave
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:57 PM
If you're afraid of the horse having problems during birth and are therefore willing to compromise on your stallion choice, well, you're probably in the rather large category of people who really aren't that enthusiastic about breeding. There is ALWAYS a risk to the mare giving birth, and the size of the foal has virtually nothing to do with it.

And schooling a few Training and Prelim XC jumps is not how anyone would define a horse that's ready or able to compete at those levels. And there are not many trainers out there who would tell someone, if asked, "no, this horse has no potential at all" because virtually ANYTHING that can get out of its own way can do Training level. It's OK to say she's a solid BN horse. There are lots of those, and many of them are worth their weight in gold. But if I wanted a baby, I'd choose BOTH parents with my "ideal" in mind. Why not start with the best POSSIBLE genes on BOTH sides, and make the crapshoot that is breeding just that much less of a crapshoot?

BTW, unless you have your own place, figure mid-5 figures for making and raising a foal to a useful age. Been there, done that, have the receipts. :)

ETA she's a pretty mare, but neither prospective parent says "eventer" to me. See the last sentence in paragraph 2. ;)

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:59 PM
I said I wouldnt breed if I couldnt afford it. I have the money in savings to do it now, but I would like to have a job so I can replace the money in savings.. I have the whole finiancial aspect down.

On to the stallion, Why dont you like this one for my mare? Reasoning please? Since this is my first (possibly only) foal I would like to know exactly what i should look for. I thought he was a good match.. just wondering reasoning.
thanks all
ETA I do have my own place. and she is a soild BN horse, but she schools training level jumps. period. there fore she is better than a solid BN horse. If I would send her away for training, she would be a solid training level horse in a few months, but I want to do all the work her. Its a pride thing.

I am breeding to a pony because I want a pony. Yes, I want to keep my mare from any problems, but I know that breeding is dangerous no matter what it is. I want a pony. Period.

deltawave
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:05 PM
No performance record in eventing.

Awkward size. (offspring will be neither pony nor full-sized horse)

No record of offspring competing in eventing.

Odd match. (I'm assuming your mare is a QH/cross?) with no real consistent "nick" to go by, meaning there aren't many GRP/QH crosses I know of competing.

eponacowgirl
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:10 PM
On to the stallion, Why dont you like this one for my mare? Reasoning please? Since this is my first (possibly only) foal I would like to know exactly what i should look for. I thought he was a good match.. just wondering reasoning.
thanks all

I'm not a breeder, or a genetics freak, or a bloodlines guru- but she's QH-ish.

I would want to breed to something known for its cattiness, athleticism, and brains.

Warmbloods (or pony versions) tend towards none of those things.

I'd find a light-boned Connemara, TB or Welsh. You don't have to have extravagant movement to do well in dressage with the correct training.

Point in case:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/murrayprincess24/comet.jpg

That is my friend's horse who just did his first prelim and finished fourth on his dressage score.

JER
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:12 PM
I want a pony. Period.

Then find a small pony stallion -- your mare is a horse. You are highly unlikely to get a pony out of a horse mare and a 14.2hh stallion.

(Says she who bred a surprise pony out of her 16hh mare and a 15.2 1/2hh stallion. Serves me right... :lol:)

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:13 PM
My mare has TB in her. She's appendix. I am breeding more so for the Dressage aspect of this pony, not so much eventing. I dont expect the foal to come out a super eventer, but I feel that with my horses boldness and jumping ability and the fact that the stallion has jumping ability and is a good mover the foal would be an okay eventer..

This is why I asked for opinions. I dont claim to know it all I just wanted to know ya'lls thoughts on the match. If ya'll give me serious reasons why this pony doesnt fit my mare, I will look. I dont know everything. That is why I ask for advice! I do take ya'lls advice and I wish ya'll would understand that.

ETA: Who is hilltop? Any links to this pony?

deltawave
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:37 PM
If ya'll give me serious reasons why this pony doesnt fit my mare, I will look.

What would you consider a "serious reason"? :confused: He's not ugly, he's got great inspection scores, he's got a nice jump. Are you waiting for someone to tell you OH MY GOD HE'S AWFUL or something? Your mare is OK, it's obvious you love her, but what is it that YOU see in this stallion that tells you this is THE ideal match? Your opinion, after all, is the one that matters.

I totally, totally get it about breeding a beloved mare. Guilty. But what, PRECISELY, do you want? Do you really want an "OK eventer"?


I want a pony. Period.

Best choose a stallion that's about 12 hands, then. And get him a ladder. :D (parenthetically, I've been saying that for 40+ years to anyone who asked what I wanted for Xmas. Did it work? NO. Had to buy my own darn pony) ;)

Hilary
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:43 PM
On the subject of mixing breeds I've seen 2 results. Freaks of nature who not only get the best of each, but somehow magnify these good traits. People stare and think "wow, how did that happen" in a good way.

The other result is that you get all the bad stuff, the horse looks like he was assembled in the dark, and people look at your horse and think "wow, how did that happen" in a not so good way.

A friend of mine bred her wonderful mare to a lovely stallion but their types were too different and the resulting horse is sweet as pie, but managed to inherit a bunch of things neither parent displayed overtly - mainly, how did 2 uphill-built parents produce a downhill horse? 4 breeds.

It's a big risk to breed a bunch of breeds together and hope you get something good. there are known crosses that work well most of the time - TB/QH, TB/ID, TB/Percheron, all produce, in generaly decent offspring. Don't wander too far from the original on either side. And don't mix too many things at once.

millerra
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:44 PM
ok, so I' am going to give you a very wishy washy, sit on the fence piece of advice....

I did breed my mare 2x. I love having her two babies (8 and 3) and have had a lot of fun bringing them up. I wouldn't change that.. They are mine, bred for me.

BUT 1) every time she was due to foal out I was nervous wreck. I have two friends who lost 2 mares in foaling -both to a ruptured uterus. So, think carefully how you would feel if you lost your dear mare.

2) foals are not a way to save money buying a nice young horse. Proceed only if you can stand to drop a few grand into a toilet and flush.

3) Babies seem bent on trying to kill themselves at least once. Both of mine required stitches once even w/ very safe fencing, barns, etc... Be prepared for extra vet bills w/ idiot yearlings and two year olds.

3) "predicting" what you will get from this stud is a bit of a crap shoot because the genetics are more varied. I bred my tb mare to Tbs and, guess what, I got horses that look and act like TBs with TB conformation. But w/ crosses it is harder to predict..

4) I think the stud you picked out is cute...

5) the whole "must have a professional handle" babies - eh. If you're experienced, albeit not a professional, its no big matter in my opinion.

There you go. A whole lot of.... nuthin...

TxEventer81
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:51 PM
OP...

There's just something about his neck and his back that I don't care for but that's my opinion. Also I think he's a bit too heavy to be crossed with your mare. Like others have said you should probably look at a lighter stallion.

Some other advice... if your goal is breeding a pony then check to see what size progeny the stallion has produced to 'x' size mares. I'm sure you know that even if you bred two small horses or ponies together that's not what you're guaranteed to get. Like someone said previously a German Riding Pony is just another name for a small WB. This pony could potentially have the genes to produce something over 17hh.

Also to answer your question about Hilltop... it's a farm. Here's a link to their stallions, not sure which one the other poster was referring to... Popeye is a pony and I like his confirmation a whole lot more than the other pony. He's also a bit lighter, but generally I think if you're looking at dressage pony stallions then you won't anything much lighter.

http://www.hilltopfarminc.com/breeding_stallions.html

JER
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:52 PM
A useful recipe for breeding:

1. Decide what you want in your foal.

2. Find a stallion who, when bred to a mare like yours, produces the kind of foal you want.

What matters is what your mare produces and what the stallion produces. Since you don't know what your mare will produce, go with a stallion who is a known quantity. To me, this means a good number of offspring who are successful in your discipline.

Now, RescueRider, ask yourself if this is the best stallion for your mare.

:)

Chall
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:55 PM
I thought the pony stallion had a disjointed back end. In fact I like your mares loins and rear end better than the pony. Your mare seems overall more harmoniously put together and balanced. His rear end seems to be trailing behind him and he seems a little long in the middle.
I'm not a conformation expert, but that was my first impression. I like what I see of your horses calm personality .

stoicfish
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:57 PM
I think your mare is cute. And since I am not your mother I won’t tell you how to run your life ;)
As far as the stallion, I think he is really cute. But not a good match for your girl. Here why. It sounds like you made the choice of using a pony stallion to because you want your mare to have easy foaling. The reality is that the size of the sire will not influence the size of the foal. There have been many studies to prove this.
I have a 17 hh, 14 year old maiden that gave birth this year to a peanut! He was so small and really skinny. His sire is 16.3. At five months old he is just about 14h, he grew like a weed, but he was tiny to start with, even though the mare was large, she was a maiden.
The size of the mares uterus will determine the foal size regardless of who you choose.
So with that in mind, why not pick a sire that has the chance of giving you your eventing horse? I think a Tb with a really good mind would be nice cross. Such as: http://www.afineromance.ca/afineromance.html or http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com/LotusT.asp


Back to fetal development. The size of the fetus at birth is often determined more by the mare's uterine capacity than by genetics, although genetics do kick in once the foal has been born.
In one bit of research at Colorado State University, a Shetland pony mare was inseminated with semen from a draft horse stallion. The pony mare delivered a small foal during a normal birth, but the foal soon outgrew its mother once it was on the ground and nursing.
Two papers presented at the International Symposium on Equine Reproduction held in South Africa in July also indicated that the mare exerts considerable influence on the size of the growing fetus.
In one paper, a researcher from Poland--Marian Tischer, who studied embryo transfer foals--found that "irrespective of genetic makeup, the ultimate height of the horse is decided by nourishment during gestation and less so by the milk capacity of the mare."
The second study was carried out by researchers in England who studied the influence of maternal size on fetal and post-natal development in the horse. They reported that, "Maternal size significantly affects fetal growth, presumably by means of limiting the area of uterine endometrium available for attachment of the diffuse epitheliochorial placenta."
Once the foal is born, genetics and nourishment are highly influential in growth and development. A foal which has the genetics for large size can do considerable catching up in the first few months of life, particularly if it receives proper nourishment and has been properly nourished while in the uterus. from
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=276

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:06 PM
I should have said I want to breed to a pony. IDC if what i get is a large pony or a small horse.. like I said I am not selling it so having a very small horse would be fine. My mare is 14.3 and she is doing good job doing what she should and being that little.. I am okay with a 14.3/15 hand horse..

ETA: thank you for the above post.

eventr4life
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:15 PM
I don't really understand why people are bringing up her not having a job... or asking why a pony...
Its just plain rude.

She simply asked for an opinion on the stallion.

She even stated to not try to convince her other wise because she knew exactly what she was getting into.


No performance record in eventing.

She said she had been competing beginner novice, you do not have to be a member of the USEA to compete in recognized shows at that level.

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:19 PM
just another pony option for you - if that is what you are looking at - hilltop has a beautiful german riding pony.




I've seen him...I like him a little better then the stallion the OP posted for her mare. He is better put together to my eye....and was a well behaved little guy and very attractive!

http://www.hilltopfarminc.com/stallion_popeye.html

The stallion posted is very nice but I don't like his conformation for the mare. I would also like to see video not slowed down on him...I don't think that slow video gives you true feel for how he moves.

I'd pick a stallion a bit more proven...so you have a better idea as to what he throws. Especially since you are only breeding once.

ETA: I would pick a horse. This is a smaller TB stallion who I've seen competing. LOVELY manners, looked like an ammy ride...and beautiful mover and jumper. http://www.teamwindchase.com/OrujoStallionPage.htm

only negative to him is I don't know how much breeding he has done so I not as proven as you might want for your one breeding. But I think his type would cross better with the OP's mare than a pony breed.

stoicfish
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:39 PM
Or how about a sport horse approved Arab? There is some nice 15hh arabs out there that would compliment your mare and are producing foals with talent.

A small Trak would be a similar type
how about this boy
http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/AulMagic.asp

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:41 PM
I have met very few QH arab crosses that i like.. so Arab is out...

ThirdCharm
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:51 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to go "outside the question", but that thread was two days ago and I just happened to remember it. And since the mare is the OP's "horse of a lifetime, not for sale" (per the "how to become a trainer" thread from a few weeks ago) and she's never going to sell the foal, that is two permanent fixtures to stuff with grain for twenty years or so.... an expensive proposition!

If you want a pony out of a horse sized mare, breed to the best, smallest pony stallion you can get, and then prepare to be disappointed. It is enough of a cr*pshoot when you're breeding what you want to what you want!

Jennifer

Beam Me Up
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:10 PM
The stallion has a really dramatic look to him, not sure he'd be my first choice either as an eventer or for your mare, but definitely see the appeal.

Then again, your goals sound pretty vague (not looking to create a serious eventer, want the stallion to be a pony but don't care if the baby is horse or pony) . . .

Maybe to turn it around, what about this pony struck you as the ideal match for your mare? Maybe we aren't really understanding your breeding goals.

stoicfish
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:11 PM
http://www.crookedwillowfarms.com/horseDetail.do?keyName=Crown

This is a nice proven, well proportioned pony.

KBG Eventer
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:19 PM
I know nothing about breeding, but I have seen this stallion http://www.hiddencreekhorses.com/our-stallion.html at several events, and he is really, really nice! I think his owner posts on here sometimes. No idea if he would be a good match for your mare but thought I would put it out there!

Meredith Clark
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:12 AM
Check out this guy: http://www.seabornefarm.com/stallions.html

He's shown a lot and his offspring have also proven themselves.

He still has a bit of the "dramatic" look but the record to back it up.

eponacowgirl
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:27 AM
Check out this guy: http://www.seabornefarm.com/stallions.html

He's shown a lot and his offspring have also proven themselves.

He still has a bit of the "dramatic" look but the record to back it up.

On a quick look, that is, hands down, the horse I would choose for your mare of the ones posted.

eventingismylife
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:28 AM
I understand why you think that breeding your mare to a pony will make her delivery easier, but truly just as many things could go wrong as with a "average" sized foal. You dont need to breed to a pony, this is because mares pretty much always throw a foal that will grow up to be smaller than they are the first time. Just a rule of thumb for you.

Meredith Clark
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:02 AM
On a quick look, that is, hands down, the horse I would choose for your mare of the ones posted.

yay I win! :lol:

j/k.. he's the horse i've always wanted to breed my TB mare (that doesn't exist yet) to get me a small little sports car of an eventer.

However (and this by no means is reflective of the OP) I don't have the money, time, or perseverance to breed at this point in my life. I also live too close to New Holland and 2 of the worst racetracks in the country to ever not adopt or rescue.

a girl can dream though...

poltroon
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:44 AM
You can have just as much fun, with less risk to your mare and pocketbook, by buying a foal already born.

That said, if you want an eventer and you want a pony, there are several pony stallions that are out winning at eventing that you might consider.

http://www.mgrmanor.com/html/brigadoon.html - MGRM Brigadoon, 13.3, won several events at Training with a 13 year old rider.

http://www.goodpony.net/RedbudRanch/Stallion.html - Wildwych Eclipse, 14.1, winning at 2nd level dressage with a first time adult amateur rider, jumping around with that same amateur at Training level and I seem to recall doing prelim now

http://www.hiddencreekhorses.com/our-stallion.html - ArdCeltic Art, doing prelim eventing and 3rd level dressage

http://www.stonybrookconnemaras.com/canal.html - Canal Laurinston, 14.3, prelim eventing and 4th level dressage

http://www.ridgetopconnemara.com/denversecondpage.html - Aladdin's Denver, 15.1, prelim eventing

http://www.cadyodalyfarm.net/stallion.htm - Tre Awain Goldsmith, 15.2, training level eventing

These are all Connemaras, (and just off the top of my head) since that's what I happen to notice, but there's no need to settle for a pony who hasn't competed in your discipline. All these ponies have shown that they not only have the talent, but also the mind and trainability to go out and compete successfully at venues full of mares, and several with amateur or junior riders. Many of them have eventing offspring on the ground as well, purebred and halfbred, so you can see what they're turning out.

jn4jenny
Dec. 2, 2009, 06:44 AM
RR, I won't tell you what to do with your life...but I find the whole "I can breed whatever I want because it's only for me and I will take care of it, therefore I don't have to breed to suit anyone's tastes but mine" argument very shaky. Unless you've discovered some amazing secret to avoiding job loss, medical tragedy, financial crisis, and/or death for the next 30 years of your life, that foal has at least some probability of having to survive on the open horse market someday. I know we don't like to think of life in those terms, but IMO it is a breeder's responsibility to do so.

If and when the nightmare scenario happens, you'll wish you'd put a foal on the ground who has some kind of marketability and can make its own way in life--even if the nightmare happens when it's a weanling, or a long yearling, or a 2-year-old with no training to improve its appeal.

Consider what kind of stallion it would take to produce such a horse.

deltawave
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:25 AM
I meant the stallion had no performance record in eventing.

AKB
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:54 AM
Think about what you really want. Do you like a hot and spooky ride? Do you want a brave jumper cross country or do you prefer quiet? Do you like a difficult foal who needs constant attention to keep him or her from kicking the whatever out of every human who comes in his path? Do you want a calm, sweet, social foal or will you find that boring?

My neighbor breeds. Her one spooky warmblood mare has always been crossed with stallions who are known to produce very quiet horses (e.g. Landkoenig). Her other mare is bred to top performance horses who have average temperments. My neighbor now realizes that she will only break and train the offspring of the one mare who is always bred to stallions who produce quiet babies. There is always an excuse for why she doesn't want to sit on the offspring of the other mare. They are lovely horses, but she doesn't enjoy them or feel confident enough to ride them. The offspring of the other mare are easy for her. She trail rides them at a walk as 2 year olds and has fun with them.

Really look at the offspring of the stallion you pick to increase the odds that you will get a foal who you like. Make sure they are brave cross country and have personalities that you enjoy. Show jumpers are not always good cross country horses. Also, be prepared for some big vet bills on a foal. My neighbor spent $20,000 on bills for one of her foals who came down with a bad diarrhea when he was a few months old. She also spent money on colic surgery for her good mare. Colic is quite common a few weeks after foaling.

If I were in your situation, I would buy a baby instead of breeding. We bought a two year old 5 years ago, and he is exactly what we wanted.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:07 AM
Sorry, didn't mean to go "outside the question", but that thread was two days ago and I just happened to remember it. And since the mare is the OP's "horse of a lifetime, not for sale" (per the "how to become a trainer" thread from a few weeks ago) and she's never going to sell the foal, that is two permanent fixtures to stuff with grain for twenty years or so.... an expensive proposition!

If you want a pony out of a horse sized mare, breed to the best, smallest pony stallion you can get, and then prepare to be disappointed. It is enough of a cr*pshoot when you're breeding what you want to what you want!

Jennifer


I understand how it is to take care of a horse for a life time. I have 6 right now. One fully retired and one semi retired. Cant sell them and I am going to have them until they die (and I have a feeling it will take a while for my saddlbred). I have a great finiacial situation where even though I have no job, I get enough money back from my colllege scholarships that I can live both semesters paying rent and board for my horse at school without having to work. I also have enough money put away where if something drastic were to happen I would have it covered. My parents own land which is basically mine because I am the only horse person in my house (but my parents do know about them enough to care for them while I am away at school). I work during the summers to put money into savings, but I know how finances work. God forbid something were to happen and I could not afford my horses my parents would be more than happy to help me. My parents have the money and would be more than happy to give it to me, but I try to be as independent as possible so I dont take their money (hence the bit question). I AM NOT BREEDING UNTIL A.) I have a steady job AND B.) I am done with school. I have the time, the money, and the want to breed. If you are going to do anything, but answer my question.. dont post.

I dont know why some of you have it in for me. Maybe ya'll think I think I know it all, but as I have said MANY times I dont claim to know everything. THAT IS WHY I ASK QUESTIONS. Yes, when you answer my question, I make comments because I am learning. I like to know the why's, the how's, the what's ect.. That does not mean I dont value everyones advice nor does it mean I completely ignore it and do whatever I want. I ask questions because I do value ya'lls opinions, so please stop bashing me.

ETA thank you everyone for your advice and all the links to other horses and ponies and I think will all the other knowledge of how a madien mare will throw a small foal and the fact that there are some nice eventing TB's I may want to breed to a small (16handish) TB although the bay Connemara is very nice. So he may be an option as well!

kookicat
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:17 AM
Why that stallion? Why do you think he's a good match for your mare?

(Not bashing- just trying to figure out what you're looking for in a stallion)

What are you trying to improve in your mare?

I don't think the stallion you posted is the right match for your girl. They are quite different in type, and you could end up with the stallion's heavy body on your mare's more fine legs. Not a good match.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:19 AM
I do no want to buy. I want to breed. I have bought a baby and brought her up and now I am ready to breed. I want a foal out of my mare. She has the perfect personality. Very personable, but also very dominate. She was not a boring baby by any means. She is very smart and learns things very quickly. I want that in a foal. She has good stong legs and feet and has (knock on wood) never been lame in her life except an abcess. She is smart out on cross country and I value that in a horse because I know I am going to screw up and she saves my butt. If I were to get a foal just like her I would be happy. Granted I wouldnt mind a little less attitude because god knows she has that. She can be the biggest B***ch ever and is stubborn as all get out, but I loved working with her as a baby. She was fun and I had fun. I want to BREED HER. I do not want to buy another foal.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:21 AM
Why that stallion? Why do you think he's a good match for your mare?

(Not bashing- just trying to figure out what you're looking for in a stallion)

What are you trying to improve in your mare?

I don't think the stallion you posted is the right match for your girl. They are quite different in type, and you could end up with the stallion's heavy body on your mare's more fine legs. Not a good match.

I picked that pony because he is such a good mover. The one thing I dont like about my mare is her movement. I dont knwo a lot about breeding, which is why I ask, so I assumed a horse with something my horse lacks would produce a foal who has both traits.. guess not. HA I am learning. Luckily I am not breeding tomorrow and would love to learn much much more.

CookiePony
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:34 AM
I have the time, the money, and the want to breed. If you are going to do anything, but answer my question.. dont post.

I dont know why some of you have it in for me. Maybe ya'll think I think I know it all, but as I have said MANY times I dont claim to know everything. THAT IS WHY I ASK QUESTIONS.


You are well aware that you don't know everything, and ask questions, which is a good thing. The thing about COTH is that it is a public forum-- so if you ask a question, you might not always get responses to that question only. Many posters here have witnessed firsthand the effects of horse overpopulation. It is logical that their first instinct, upon hearing that someone has "decided to breed," is to ask about the basis for that decision and the concrete goals of the breeder.

Once your question is out there, answers to those questions might themselves be in the form of questions. In my mind, the most important question at this point is: "why breed at all?"

imapepper
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:41 AM
I dont know why some of you have it in for me. Maybe ya'll think I think I know it all, but as I have said MANY times I dont claim to know everything. THAT IS WHY I ASK QUESTIONS. Yes, when you answer my question, I make comments because I am learning. I like to know the why's, the how's, the what's ect.. That does not mean I dont value everyones advice nor does it mean I completely ignore it and do whatever I want. I ask questions because I do value ya'lls opinions, so please stop bashing me.


I wouldn't take it personally. A majority of this board advocates responsible breeding. You might have gotten a better response if you had stated "future" stallion for my mare and given a timeline. Also, I think that when you ask opinions of the stallion for your mare, that you need to really put what you want to improve in your mare for people to give an educated opinion of whether or not it would make a good match. For example, I own a mare that I would LOVE to breed. I would be happy to get an exact clone.....but if I were to be picky....I would add a couple inches to her height, add some bone, give her just a touch more scope and tone down her sensitivity ;) Those are the kind of details that the folks need to see to evaluate a stallion or make an educated suggestion ;)

There have been some excellent suggestions for other stallions. Good luck on your planning :) BTW....I believe there is a full brother to Thedore O Connor that is out there getting ready to compete ;) And they are planning on keeping him intact. Since your timeline for breeding is in the next couple of years, maybe you might want to keep an eye on his career. Anyone have the link?

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:05 AM
Why breed at all? I am going to breed because I love my mare more than anything. She has given me so much and having her and training her was an amazing experience. I am planning on breeding ONCE. Unless she throws a world champion foal, I will not breed her again. I do not want to be a breeder. I do not want to buy another baby because the whole point of me getting a baby at this time (well the time that I breed) is because I want it out of my mare. If I decide to get another horse, I plan on adopting an OTTB. Any horse from there on out I get will be an OTTB or OTQH. Those two breeds I love and there is a need for TB's to be adopted and idk about the QH market, but I love my QH's so that is in the draw as well.

I understand the overpopulation. I have had a few horses come through my barn because of irresponsible owners and I had to take care of them and then try and rehome them.

The reason that humans have babies is because they want one of their own.. They could easily adopt. It would be much cheaper in the long run (I know this because my parents are adopting right now and their best friends already went through it). They bring another child in the world because they want to when there are PLENTY that dont have homes. The exact same argument can be put towards why a person should a adobt and not have a baby as everyone puts toward buy vs. breeding. I want a baby of my own out of my mare. period. I dont want a baby out of another mare I want it out of mine.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:07 AM
I wouldn't take it personally. A majority of this board advocates responsible breeding. You might have gotten a better response if you had stated "future" stallion for my mare and given a timeline. Also, I think that when you ask opinions of the stallion for your mare, that you need to really put what you want to improve in your mare for people to give an educated opinion of whether or not it would make a good match. For example, I own a mare that I would LOVE to breed. I would be happy to get an exact clone.....but if I were to be picky....I would add a couple inches to her height, add some bone, give her just a touch more scope and tone down her sensitivity ;) Those are the kind of details that the folks need to see to evaluate a stallion or make an educated suggestion ;)

There have been some excellent suggestions for other stallions. Good luck on your planning :) BTW....I believe there is a full brother to Thedore O Connor that is out there getting ready to compete ;) And they are planning on keeping him intact. Since your timeline for breeding is in the next couple of years, maybe you might want to keep an eye on his career. Anyone have the link?

I am fully watching Kevlars progress :)

deltawave
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:18 AM
I don't perceive anyone "having it in for you". If that's your perception, you are thinking with your heart and not your brain WRT your mare and your choice of stallion, which is also commonly known as The Breeder's Downfall. :)

If you only wanted props and kudos for your choices of parents for your future horse, why post asking for advice? :confused:

DownYonder
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:20 AM
OP, if you want to breed to a pony stallion, and you want to breed for an eventer, you should seriously think about this guy.

http://www.hiddencreekhorses.com/our-stallion.html .

He has proven success as an eventer, is a great little jumper, has REALLY good movement, and a wonderful temperament. He was at our Oldenburg / Weser Ems inspection this year, and really wowed everyone, including the inspector who was very impressed with his gaits and jumping ability. Really nice little guy!

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:24 AM
ETA thank you everyone for your advice and all the links to other horses and ponies and I think will all the other knowledge of how a madien mare will throw a small foal and the fact that there are some nice eventing TB's I may want to breed to a small (16handish) TB although the bay Connemara is very nice. So he may be an option as well!


Also don't be afraid of using frozen on a madien mare either....I haven't had any issues. It is a bit more costly and you do need to use a very good vet but in the end, the cost is not significant compared to all your other costs and the benefit of increasing your choices of stallions is significant.

I love connemara's but I would think your mare has enough substance that I would lean more toward a TB. I think connemara's cross great with TBs but if you at all hope for this foal to go on in eventing, I'd set yourself up with better odds by looking for a really good moving/jumping TB whose conformation matches your mare. (although I must admit that I've seen ArdCeltic Art and he is LOVELY...if I wasn't 5'9" I'd consider him for my TB mare).

I'd really want a stallion that puts a better front end on for you mare...in the picture, she looked a bit back at the knee but that could just be that picture.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:38 AM
I had never considered live coverage breeding. LOL I just assumed it would be a lot easier doing frozen. There is a really good vet near me that i use for "important" things(as in not coggins test) and would def use him!

Do you mean over at the knee, by the back at the knee? If not can you explain? I know she is "over at the knee" but I have never heard "back at the knee"

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:44 AM
I picked that pony because he is such a good mover. The one thing I dont like about my mare is her movement. I dont knwo a lot about breeding, which is why I ask, so I assumed a horse with something my horse lacks would produce a foal who has both traits.. guess not. HA I am learning. Luckily I am not breeding tomorrow and would love to learn much much more.


The hard thing about movement is it is less heritable (sp??). So that is one of the harder things to improve in a mare. It is easier to take a good moving mare and improve the jump (that has been shown to be more easily passed on).

The way you improve movement is really understanding the mechanic of conformation. I am NOT an expert in this...but what you need is an educated eye that can look at your mare's conformation and tell you WHY mechanically she isn't a top notch mover. Then understanding her conformational weakness...you find a stallion who has that as his strength and one who passes that trait.

NOT easy. For example...I have three horses out of the same dam. The dam was a lovely mover herself...two of the offspring are 10 movers (and jumpers)...international caliber...the third is OK. Better than average but not WOW. The difference...the third horse is just a tad downhill. If she had one more inch in her front legs, she would be a 10 mover as well (and an international caliber horse). So if I ever bred her...I would be looking at stallions who really stamped their babies with an uphill balance...and longer front legs. But if your mare has several flaws which are keeping her from being a 10 mover....you may not be able to improve it. Ultimately, you need to be happy if you got a little clone of your mare. In my third mare...yeah, I'd like a better mover out of her, and given her close relatives, I think we would have a good chance of getting that....but even if I got a clone of her...she isn't a bad mover (but I haven't decided on breeding her even though she has done a CCI* already and has well known eventer blood lines).

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:53 AM
I had never considered live coverage breeding. LOL I just assumed it would be a lot easier doing frozen. There is a really good vet near me that i use for "important" things(as in not coggins test) and would def use him!

Do you mean over at the knee, by the back at the knee? If not can you explain? I know she is "over at the knee" but I have never heard "back at the knee"


I didn't mean live coverage...but a lot of people will do AI but with fresh cooled semen instead of frozen semen. Frozen is tricky too use in the sense that your timing needs to right on...you can be a bit less accurate with fresh cooled.

In the picture she looked "back at the Knee" which is a conformational flaw for a sport horse but it could have just been the angle of the photo....I didn't study it closely. Slightly over at the knee doesn't bother me. This link gives a nice simple explanation
http://www.equiworld.net/conformation/index.htm

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:01 PM
I will try to get a video of her when I go home in two weeks. I would love to get some opinion on her, but I got a new computer and I dont have any of my old videos anymore

GotSpots
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:01 PM
Back at the knee means that if you drop a plumb line down through the horse's front legs, the knee connects to the cannon bone behind the line - the cannon bone is slightly infront of the knee, in other words. Over at the knee means the connection is slightly in front of the cannon. Back at the knee is a fairly serious conformation fault because it can forecast significant unsoundness. Over at the knee is still a conformation flaw, but in practice tends to have less significant (though still some actual) soundness repercussions.

Equibrit
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:07 PM
Look at Sea Accounts - http://www.debracysporthorses.com/DeBracy_Sport_Horses/Sea_Accounts.html
A lot of useful information to help a person on the site.
You need to do the BEST that you can with what you have.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:08 PM
I have only ever been told she is over at the knee and she has never been unsound... I will try to get better pictures of her

subk
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:09 PM
I dont know why some of you have it in for me. Maybe ya'll think I think I know it all, but as I have said MANY times I dont claim to know everything. THAT IS WHY I ASK QUESTIONS. Yes, when you answer my question, I make comments because I am learning.
Maybe the answer to that question is that you are all over the place! Wasn't it just a couple of weeks ago you were so passionate about wanting to become a professional trainer and how one the the great limits on that was your lack of funds? Yet now money is no problem! And if you still want to be a pro hanging another horse around you're neck to care for is a bad idea. That your willing to hang an incredibly difficult horse to market around your neck is awful--that is if you really do want to be a pro...

I am glad for you that you will be waiting a few years to breed. I think you need to grow up a little--which is fine. One of the reason I bother to respond to your posts is that I know you are young and don't have regular guidance. But I must say it does get a little frustrating spending time and effort answering your questions only to have you constantly running in the opposite direction of the overwhelming majority of the answers the next week.

I will say it. Your mare is a very nice little backyard horse that has gotten around a few BN courses. Good for both of you! But having seen you and her out and about, she is not an "eventer" or breeding material. I know you love her and that's wonderful, but horses are NOT humans. You do a great disservice to your mare planning for her life as if she were something she is not. Loving her means making mature decisions based on what is best for her, not based on how she makes you feel.

I would also say that at your age your life will change more than you can imagine in the next ten years. Some of it good, some of it not and most of it unlike anything you are expecting. I see nothing that you have written that begins to sway me that you breeding that mare is anything but a textbook example irresponsible breeding.

stoicfish
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:16 PM
Fresh is your other choice and probably the most common one if you pick a stallion anywhere close to you. You should pop over to the breeders forum. Ask for stallions with good movement, that throw smaller. If you are OK with 16h, it opens up a ton of horses since that is the cut off for most WB's. Some taller horses throw smaller (and vice versa). http://www.hilltopfarminc.com/stallion_donarweiss_ggf.html#1 Donarweiss, check with Hilltop but I have heard people refer him as throwing on the smaller size. Some shorter people that do not want a tall dressage horse, and he is often quoted. Plus the baby could possibly get Aux papers with someone, just in case. He has some of the best lines for dressage, but can jump.

I agree with responsible breeding. But any horse that is not well trained yet or is older is susceptible to life circumstances. If people feel very strongly about breeding they should talk to the racing forum and then pop over to the breeding forum. Any horse, even with good breeding can break down, or more commonly lose their papers. I would never advocate reckless breeding, especially for sale. But I have a hard time chastising someone, whose circumstances I don't know, for breeding for themselves. Want to get grumpy? Go to Craigs list, Billy-Bob and his crooked legged, long backed, Hypp positive, downhill Yaks desperately needs some advice about his 5 weanlings for sale (which have all been backed by his 6 year old daughter as seen in the pictures)

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:23 PM
Subk, I am not exactly sure who you are, but I would imagine the only time you could have seen my mare would be at PWP. Seeing as how you have seen her maybe once or twice i am not sure how you can have such an opinion on what she is or isnt. I have had all my trainers tell me she can easily go training and there is no reason she cant go prelim. Trainers i trust. Not my HJ trainer here at school the eventer trainer i worked with back at home and Bill Hoos along with a trainer I worked with in KY until she moved to Lexington. All very good trainers and all very knowledgable.

You probably saw us on our bad day at PWP.. Yea she has them, but she also (usually) has great days. Since schooling at PWP we jumping 3' consistently, We have become more collected and she has become a lot easier to rate. I just did a clinic with Michael Tokaruk and he even said she was a nice horse and a decent mover. Not the best, but decent.

SO idk what you see, but she is not just some back yard pony with no potential. Do I expect her to do 3* events? No, but I have been told time and time again that she will go prelim...

kookicat
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:26 PM
I picked that pony because he is such a good mover. The one thing I dont like about my mare is her movement. I dont knwo a lot about breeding, which is why I ask, so I assumed a horse with something my horse lacks would produce a foal who has both traits.. guess not. HA I am learning. Luckily I am not breeding tomorrow and would love to learn much much more.

Okay. With your plans to event the baby, I think you should be looking at an eventer with good movement. I'd also look at something with a little lighter breeding than the stallion that you posted. :)

I like this stallion.

http://www.hiddencreekhorses.com/our-stallion.html

I like his type, he looks like a lovely mover (though that is something you'd need to evaluate in person), and I like the fact there is lots of information about him.

skip916
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:33 PM
connemara stallion...connemara stallion...connemara stallion... repeat

it seems like the phentoype of the offspring of your mare and this german pony stallion would be short (height) and short (front to back)... this doesn't usually produce great dressage in my limited experience. he's so very cresty and "stout" that you may end up with a pony body and an awkward looking horse head since your mare has a short back too (not a bad thing!) but larger horse sized appendix-y features.

my guess is, judging from the stallion choice and the quote on your profile that you are dreaming of the next theodore o'connor? arent we all!? :)

teddy had a good bit of arab in him and if you looked at him from far away, you would never know he was pony sized because he was built like a horse.

there are some super amazing connemara stallions out there that can add the dressage lines you want without increasing the "bulk" genes. i think a connemara would compliment your mare very nicely and keep the height down!

just my opinion! good luck with your mare- she seems very nice!

tle
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:38 PM
I'm not going to comment on your choice of stallion, your mare (and her attitude issues) or your decision to breed. I am, however, going to address this statement however OT it might be:


The reason that humans have babies is because they want one of their own.. They could easily adopt.

I know you said your parents are adopting (will they then have $$ to give you?) but I would be VERY careful about making such false statements. I have several friends and coworkers who have or are adopting for whatever reasons. easy?? You haven't a clue if you think adopting is easy. And people have kids for all kinds of reasons... including the big OOPS!

Sorry, but the arrogance shown in this false analogy set me off I guess.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:40 PM
As much as I would love the next Teddy, I know it isnt realistic, so before anyone goes on a rant about that.. I dont expect the foal to be a super star eventer like teddy.

I do know her mom was a small QH. Very broad and pony like and I dont want something to look like a pony. I want to have a horse is small. LOL

Would a connemara give me a horse in small?

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:46 PM
I'm not going to comment on your choice of stallion, your mare (and her attitude issues) or your decision to breed. I am, however, going to address this statement however OT it might be:



I know you said your parents are adopting (will they then have $$ to give you?) but I would be VERY careful about making such false statements. I have several friends and coworkers who have or are adopting for whatever reasons. easy?? You haven't a clue if you think adopting is easy. And people have kids for all kinds of reasons... including the big OOPS!

Sorry, but the arrogance shown in this false analogy set me off I guess.


Sorry I upset you, but in my experience with adopting, it has been easier.
My parents friends got STUCK in china, their new babies Visa was lost, their two young boys were sick from the food and the god awful heat. They were sent home along with their father, while their mother was stuck for an extra week.. She was sick as well. Her visa expired, babies visa still couldnt be found then it was a holiday in china so everything was closed on that friday and wouldnt be opened until monday.. stuck more, still sick with a BABY. She came home finally and said she would still rather adopt than have another child herself. My parents process seems to be going a lot smoother, but they are also adopting from the US.

Again I am sorry I set you off. I didnt mean to step on any toes, but this has been the experience in my family and within our church who has families who have adopted.

eponacowgirl
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:47 PM
Would a connemara give me a horse in small?

I think the overwhelming consensus here is (more than likely) YES.

findeight
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:50 PM
Two things, first the match. the hardest thoing about breeding is you have to be neutral in assesing the faults of both stud and mare. Emotion has to stay out of it. So don't take this personal.

To me, as a neutral person with absolutely no interest in this, your mare is a little on the coarse side, could use more refinement and length in the neck and better angles in shoulder and hip. Looks long backed due to the straighter/shorter hip and shoulder. The length and angle of the hip and shoulder influence movement.

So your goal in selecting a stud is to pick one that does not have these faults and has produced babies that do not have them. That is no guarantee either but you got a 50/50 shot.

The stud pictured has alot of big, heavy regular sized German WBs of various types in his pedigree so is unlikely to improve her basic build or add any refinement. He is a little long in the back which means he probably is not going to improve her there, looks a little open in the hip angle as well. He would match with a light boned, refined, short coupled mare-which yours is not.

They are also opposite in type and you can get his dramatic, upright front end on her chunky body and you won't be too happy with that. Reminds me of a dog I knew that was a Corgi/Lab mix-they bred for smaller size with the Lab temperment...they got Corgi from the elbows down and Lab on top like somebody cut up a picture of each and pasted the top and bottom together-a full sized Lab body on 8 inch Corgi legs-typical terrier temperment too. Best to stay in the same ballpark typewise whatever breed.

The second thing is just to say that, in a perfect world, parents would live forever, property taxes would go down, money would be no problem and there would never be a fire, an accident or catastropic, financially draining chronic illness requiring liquidation of assests.

Just remember you don't live in that perfect world. You are young yet and don't realize how wrong things can go and planning your future with no thought to the "what if" side of life.

stoicfish
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:56 PM
I think the overwhelming consensus here is (more than likely) YES.

I think it will give you a connemara look. If you see that as a small horse-go for it. They are super horses, with great minds. They do look like connemaras as opposed to a small-big horse. Not a bad thing.

subk
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:09 PM
I would imagine the only time you could have seen my mare would be at PWP.
Would that be because you mare really isn't an "eventer" as in you don't really compete often in H.T.s or go to local schooling shows?


Seeing as how you have seen her maybe once or twice i am not sure how you can have such an opinion on what she is or isnt.
Well, it certainly gives me significantly better insight than those here that are giving you advice who only get to see a single picture! Surely you won't listen to those that only see her picture then dismiss those that have seen her picture AND seen her in person?

Mare: Average conformation, non traditional type (considering breeding to non traditional type) extremely limited performance experience, unexceptional mover, unexceptional jumper. (None of this is a negative as a performance horse as it describes a huge section of the eventing population--even some of my own! But breeding potential it is not.) Sorry performance "potential" isn't a breeding quality I put much value in especially in a non traditional type.

Breeder: Very young w/uncertain future (based on age,) very limited competition experience, very limited training experience (to minimal performance level,) does not own her own property (sorry, parent's place is still out of your control,) has expressed recently that lack of finances is limiting her equine education now and in the near future, first time breeding.

Does anybody really think this is a good scenario to breed? Do YOU really think this is a good scenario RR?

poltroon
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:14 PM
Two things, first the match. the hardest thoing about breeding is you have to be neutral in assesing the faults of both stud and mare. Emotion has to stay out of it. So don't take this personal.

To me, as a neutral person with absolutely no interest in this, your mare is a little on the coarse side, could use more refinement and length in the neck and better angles in shoulder and hip. Looks long backed due to the straighter/shorter hip and shoulder. The length and angle of the hip and shoulder influence movement.

So your goal in selecting a stud is to pick one that does not have these faults and has produced babies that do not have them. That is no guarantee either but you got a 50/50 shot.

The stud pictured has alot of big, heavy regular sized German WBs of various types in his pedigree so is unlikely to improve her basic build or add any refinement. He is a little long in the back which means he probably is not going to improve her there, looks a little open in the hip angle as well. He would match with a light boned, refined, short coupled mare-which yours is not.

They are also opposite in type and you can get his dramatic, upright front end on her chunky body and you won't be too happy with that. Reminds me of a dog I knew that was a Corgi/Lab mix-they bred for smaller size with the Lab temperment...they got Corgi from the elbows down and Lab on top like somebody cut up a picture of each and pasted the top and bottom together-a full sized Lab body on 8 inch Corgi legs-typical terrier temperment too. Best to stay in the same ballpark typewise whatever breed.

The second thing is just to say that, in a perfect world, parents would live forever, property taxes would go down, money would be no problem and there would never be a fire, an accident or catastropic, financially draining chronic illness requiring liquidation of assests.

Just remember you don't live in that perfect world. You are young yet and don't realize how wrong things can go and planning your future with no thought to the "what if" side of life.

Findeight wrote some sage words here. Let me add this:

No matter how careful we are, all of our horses are one bus accident away from being 'orphans' with our families/heirs etc needing to find them new homes pronto.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:20 PM
I do go to several schooling shows.. Thanks There arent many in TN so I have done a lot in KY.

subk
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:24 PM
I do go to several schooling shows.. Thanks There arent many in TN so I have done a lot in KY.
So there ARE places I could have seen you other than PWP? Cause I am pretty mobile.

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:27 PM
So there ARE places I could have seen you other than PWP? Cause I am pretty mobile.

Fine. sure, but I know you havent. Can you stop now?

Sorry you dont like my horse. Trainers with more knowledge than you do. So stop.

poltroon
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:31 PM
Would a connemara give me a horse in small?

I think a connemara is the kind of horse you are looking for, but it's hard to say exactly how one would cross on your mare. There are QH/connemara crosses out there, and other halfbreds; a good way to research it would be to find some of those and see if you like what you see.

eponacowgirl
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:36 PM
Hey Courtney,

I don't know if you actually know who subk is, but she is really an awesome person... blunt, maybe, but awesome and MORE THAN WILLING to share her vast knowledge with anyone who will open their ear and listen.

She has some experience we could only dream of, including being long listed and riding with some clinicians that I can only read about.

You might not like what she has to say, you but might avoid making her an enemy.

ETA: I don't think she never said she didn't like your mare, just that she might be a top choice to breed.

Catalina
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:38 PM
http://www.hiddencreekhorses.com/our-stallion.html - ArdCeltic Art, doing prelim eventing and 3rd level dressage


:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

I am not an expert by any means, but hands down this guy would be my choice. Fabulous movement, amazing jumper (0 XC jump penalties on his record all the way through Prelim and hardly any rails down), won at Training at the AECs last year, and quiet enough to be ridden by a kid when he was still green. Man, makes me wish I had a mare and I wasn't quite so tall :winkgrin:.

deltawave
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:39 PM
The hard thing about movement is it is less heritable

God, so true! Both of Bonnie's parents are good movers, and she is a fair mover at best. :lol:

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:40 PM
Hey Courtney,

I don't know if you actually know who subk is, but she is really an awesome person... blunt, maybe, but awesome and MORE THAN WILLING to share her vast knowledge with anyone who will open their ear and listen.

She has some experience we could only dream of, including being long listed and riding with some clinicians that I can only read about.

You might not like what she has to say, you but might avoid making her an enemy.

ETA: I don't think she never said she didn't like your mare, just that she might be a top choice to breed.

I would love to get her advice, but I personally think she is being rather rude to me.

deltawave
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:41 PM
I have had all my trainers tell me she can easily go training

Again, ANY HORSE with four legs can "easily go training", especially if you ask a pro or trainer. They start their barely-broke OTTBs at Training! For them it's like BN.

But as the OP is taking this all very, VERY personally, I don't suppose this will sink in or be categorized as anything but an "attack". :sigh:

I *know* my homebred mare has no ability to go beyond Training. And that's fine--I bred her as a horse to take me N/T, she's just what I asked for. But every trainer that's seen her has assured me "she can go Training level". Training is not hard, requires very little in true athleticism, and the jumps, while not tiny, do not require a horse with real scope or cattiness. Those things sure help, though! :)

kookicat
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:42 PM
Fine. sure, but I know you havent. Can you stop now?

Sorry you dont like my horse. Trainers with more knowledge than you do. So stop.

I don't think she said that she didn't like your horse. She said that your mare isn't really breeding material.

Now, before you get upset- that doesn't make her a bad mare, and it won't make you love your girl any less. :) It just means that her genes shouldn't be passed on.

My mare, Lilly, was a wonderful girl. She evented up to intermediate, and even though she had had a really nice foal before I bought her, I didn't breed her myself because there were things about her that I didn't want to pass on. :)

subk
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:42 PM
Sorry you dont like my horse.
Actually I LIKE your mare. I love untraditional types that go and do! I don't think 95% of the horses out there ought to used for breeding. That I don't think she is one of the 5% that has the stuff for breeding doesn't mean I don't think she might be fabulous.

Sorry, I come across so blunt...

AnotherRound
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:43 PM
Look at Sea Accounts - http://www.debracysporthorses.com/DeBracy_Sport_Horses/Sea_Accounts.html
A lot of useful information to help a person on the site.
You need to do the BEST that you can with what you have.

I love that durn horse. By all accounts! Heh heh heh, I made a funny. But really, I really admire that animal all around.

Jazzy Lady
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:52 PM
There's a reason that majority of colts are gelded. It isn't because of attitude. It's because they aren't perfect breeding specimens.

Same thought should be applied for mares. Just because they CAN have a baby, doesn't mean they should.

I had a mare though i loved so much. I wanted to breed her. She was winning at training level with great dressage scores, was athletic enough easily for prelim, probably intermediate but was a bit downhill. Fantastic personality. I decided instead to buy a horse who was already what I was hoping for in a foal.

You said you were looking for a ws position to get ahead? What about working for an eventing trainer who has an extensive breeding program, or deals with clients with an extensive breeding program. Then you can learn a great deal out of both.

by the way, I agree that the original pony isn't suited for your mare. If you decide it's a great idea and you HAVE to breed her... I like the grey connemara.

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:54 PM
Again, ANY HORSE with four legs can "easily go training", especially if you ask a pro or trainer. They start their barely-broke OTTBs at Training! For them it's like BN.


LOL...you ask my trainner...and just about any horse can go Advanced. He says that about all of mine all the time...I laugh and think lets get to insert (Novice, Trainning, Prelim) first:D And even then...there is can do it..and there is can be competitive.



Perhaps the OP should consider working on a breeding farm. Foal watching is a good way to earn money so is a good skill to acquire...and then the OP can learn even more about the risks and benefits of breeding before deciding to do it herself.

Meredith Clark
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:02 PM
Training is not hard, requires very little in true athleticism, and the jumps, while not tiny, do not require a horse with real scope or cattiness.

Although I know this is a common feeling in eventing (esp. among professionals) I think it needs to be pointed out that the OP is admittedly not a professional and not an upper level rider (or even aiming at the upper levels for the mare or foal).

For a lower level amateur training IS hard and not every horse they came across can go training, at least not with them.

I agree that MOST horses that are physically able to jump can jump a training fence but that doesn't mean they can do an entire x-country course especially not with an inexperienced rider (not assuming any level of talent for the OP).

I guess what I'm saying is that we on this forum shouldn't "poo-poo" a rider who is proud of her horse for being a solid BN horse with the ability to go training, even if for some people Training level is merely beginning and not the end goal. :yes:

...should you breed a horse that maxes out at N/T?, well... *shrug*

jn4jenny
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:05 PM
Folks, let's remember that we're talking to a 20-year-old who was just asking the other week about becoming a trainer. And she didn't like the advice she got there either. Given that reaction, I'm not surprised by how she's taking this advice.

RR9, have you thought about the implications of being in your mid-twenties, chasing your dream of being a trainer, and having a foal/weaning/yearling/unbroke horse/green horse in tow?

It's already hard enough to be starting a training business with one horse in tow, and you made it clear on your other thread that you don't intend to sell the mare. If she's really the BN packer that you claim, at least she can (possibly) pay her own bills while you get your business started (assuming that she stays sound and healthy, and that's a huge gamble on its own).

The foal, however, will not be able to pay its own bills for at least the first four years. Do you want to be dragging around that financial ball and chain while you're setting up your training business? Even if you manage to afford the foal's bills, where are you going to find the time to work with this foal when you're busting your butt teaching client lessons? Are you prepared to walk away from hundreds or thousands of dollars in profit that would have come from having room in your schedule for one or two more client horses or sale horses?.

Honestly, I think we're all wasting our breath here. If you do decide to breed in two or three years, hopefully you'll have taken our advice by then to get a working student gig with a BNT. That BNT will know you and your mare a lot better than we will and, if they deem this plan prudent, can help you locate the right stallion and meet the right breeding experts.

subk
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:13 PM
I would love to get her advice, but I personally think she is being rather rude to me.
Actually, I like YOU too. We've met. We've talked. You weren't much interested in what I had to say in real life either, which honestly doesn't bother me but it's a pattern here at COTH that when people say what you don't want to hear it seems like you put your fingers in your ears and sing lalalalalala.

You have passion and desire and I like that! You have limited resources, and oh have I've been there myself. I feel for you, mostly though I worry about you. I'm so afraid that you are going to get yourself upside down, covered up and in an impossible situation because you are not very objective or much of a realist. I have seen it happen dozens of times to others over the years and I would so hate to see that happen to you.

I am sorry you think I'm rude. I probably am. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I will fade back into the sidelines now and just continue to observe.

findeight
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:20 PM
Sorry you dont like my horse. Trainers with more knowledge than you do. So stop.

You are barn blind and not listening. NOBODY here said they did not LIKE your horse. They simply, unemotionally, pointed out what needs to be improved by any stallion you pick-which is what you asked for.

No horse is perfect. But you cannot select an appropriate stallion unless you admit what needs improvement. Can't train or ride them properly either if you do not recognize what needs improvement.

I admit I don't know everything but have been in horses for 45 years and I doubt your trainers would tell you anything different about this mare's conformation (that makes her a bad mover).

It takes a horseman to admit faults and work to improve them.

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:28 PM
I will add...while I voiced my opinion on stallions....I have to agree with SUBK...I wouldn't breed this mare. Enjoy her...have fun with her...give her a safe life time home.

What people are objecting about is breeding for mediocrity...breed the best to the best and hope for the best. You will RARELY actually produce the best....but you will hopefully produce nice.

Training isn't hard for most horses....hard for many riders in partnership with those horses...of course.

Really...to me it isn't worth risking the mare you love. The foal will not be her....

If you do decide to breed anyway....pick the BEST stallion you can. Take your time and get really educated. Pick up books on conformation...work at a breeding farm...find out the best repo vet in the area...ask for advice from people who really know your mare and can help you get the best match. Remember...the stud fee is the cheap part of breeding.

Rubyfree
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:37 PM
OP, in my time away from the barn, I love to cook.

I really like duck.
I also really like strawberry ice cream.

That doesn't mean that I think duck and strawberry ice cream would be a good mix. (Although I'm certain someone somewhere does :lol:)

Your mare is the ice cream, the stallion you posted is the duck. Get it?

The point that so many are trying to make here- outside of trying to ensure that you fully comprehend the realities of breeding your mare- is that if you insist on doing so, there is no reason to compromise on the quality of the resulting foal. Find a stallion that has a solid record of throwing foals that are of the type you would like out of mares like yours. You've received some great suggestions on that front.

Offering suggestions based on your mares conformational and personality faults isn't a personal attack. It's good sense.

It's your first time making a new dish, so follow a proven recipe for optimal results.

fargaloo
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:38 PM
Subk, I don't think you were rude; quite the contrary.

OP, I don't think anyone's motivation here is to cut you down or mock your dreams. Voices of experience are telling you that breeding is not a good decision for you or your mare. I love my two mares to death and I understand the impulse to want to create little "mini-me's" -- a replica, only better!! But this is a fantasy; it can work out but the reality rarely lives up to the fantasy.

Rule of thumb: look at your mare with brutal honesty and try to picture the offspring she is likely to produce (both the best and the worst). Then ask yourself if you would pay $20,000 for it as a 2-year old. If the answer is no, you have your answer....

saje
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:07 PM
RR, I was in your shoes not quite 10 years ago. I had (still have actually) a nice little mare, AQHA, nothing fancy but with a mind and attitude like no other - we really click. She's maybe 15.1 with new shoes and a full winter coat. Due to various circumstances I never did get to compete her much, but I bought her at 1 1/2 yrs and raised and trained her myself.

I decided to breed her, and found a nice but relatively unproven TB stud, almost 16.3hh and also with a lovely temperament. It took about 3x what I'd originally thought it would to get her in foal, and twice as long as I'd hoped. My breeding budget was blown out of the water, and I could have bought a VERY nice youngster for what I spent getting this baby (that was not ever going to be for sale, he was to be my next eventer) on the ground.

In the end, what I got was LUCKY. I really had not much idea of what I was doing, and I lucked into a good baby. He's 15.3, more athletic than his mother, trainable, brave, willing. He also inherited a lot of conformational things that make his job as an eventer that much more difficult. He's a bit downhill, so really coming under from behind is harder for him than for an uphill built horse. That's compunded by a fairly low-set neck, which just increases his tendency to be heavy on the forehand. He's also a bit long in the back. He IS willing, and loves to jump, and is actually pretty good at it despite his flaws, but he'd be better and an easier ride without them. And as we're now at Training (and he's 8 now) the conformational difficulties are *really* making themselves evident.

I've also been told that Prelim is not a problem for him, and possibly more. Maybe not for him, but for he and I combined?? We'll see...

So if I were you I'd get someone who knows conformation and breeding inside and out to help you decide on a stallion, and when you have a few in mind, send GOOD conformational pictures and video to the SO and see if they think she'd be a good match with that stud.


One other thing to keep in mind: I was almost 40, settled, happily married to a physician when I made this decision. And I still came within a hairsbreadth of losing my horses, my house, everything. My life got turned upside down, twice. The only reason I got to keep my horses is that my dear husband busted his @ss to make it happen, I could not have done it on my own. It would have broken my heart to have had to have sold him, and the way he looked as a youngster at that time and in that market? No-one would have given me $500 for him. Nothing in this life is a sure thing, so make very very sure that you have all your bases covered twice over before you undertake this.

I adore my little guy, but he's not his mother's clone. At this point I sure won't part from him, but 20/20 hindsight tells me I probably would have done better to buy, not breed.

imapepper
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:17 PM
Actually, I like YOU too. We've met. We've talked. You weren't much interested in what I had to say in real life either, which honestly doesn't bother me but it's a pattern here at COTH that when people say what you don't want to hear it seems like you put your fingers in your ears and sing lalalalalala.

You have passion and desire and I like that! You have limited resources, and oh have I've been there myself. I feel for you, mostly though I worry about you. I'm so afraid that you are going to get yourself upside down, covered up and in an impossible situation because you are not very objective or much of a realist. I have seen it happen dozens of times to others over the years and I would so hate to see that happen to you.

I am sorry you think I'm rude. I probably am. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I will fade back into the sidelines now and just continue to observe.

I hate to say this....but you should listen to subk. She has obviously been there and done that by her posts. I do not think she is being rude. I think she is trying to pass you some knowledge that she probably had to learn the hard way ;) Honestly, if I were aspiring to be a pro, I wouldn't own a horse period. I made that mistake when I was a young pro. It made life really difficult. Most young pros do not make a decent living and vet expenses can get big quickly....ask me how I know :eek: Frankly, not having the ties gives you the freedom to move and take opportunities that come up without having to worry about a bunch of baggage and expenses. I would probably have so much more time to ride and more $$$ to show if I just rode my trainers horses.

And right now, if it weren't from my DH, I would be selling my once in a lifetime mare due to my employment situation or lack thereof. I would never want to sell this mare but if I were on my own I would be up the proverbial creek without a paddle :eek:

Not everyone who tells you what you don't want to hear is against you. Most of the time, they are very much on your side :) Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

LLDM
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:17 PM
I rarely reply when I haven't read every post on a thread, but I simply can't stand it at the moment. I've read enough to feel comfortable saying this though.

Do you folks who are having a cow about the OP breeding her mare really think that she is problem of too many horses in this country? Or even those like her? Do you think you are sending the right message here?

Why beat the crap out of someone who is trying to educate herself and ask advice? All you're doing is ensuring that people who really do need advice don't ask!

The people who are REALLY the problem with over breeding and poor breeding are never going to show up here and ask how they might do a better job. They are the people in the business of mass producing crap in hopes of getting a couple good ones (or worse), are in it as a by product of another business, or simply wanting a foal (or puppies, or kittens) without even considering the implications. In other words, those with no plan, no knowledge and no worries.

I used to think FUGLY was a good, albeit somewhat harsh idea. But now I think it has created a huge judgmental, non-helpful, self righteous mob mentality. Just like sex, breeding is not inherently evil or sinful or bad. Nor do you need the perfect horse to do a decent job of it. Someone bred the horses you ride. And if someone is willing to take a much responsibility as is even possible - since no one is omniscient and we actually have to get out of bed in the morning and take a chance on life - then that's the BEST anyone can do. So ease up a bit before you cause people to throw up their hands and boomerang the opposite direction.

The OP has a nice, sound, ridable and kind mare - AND she is searching for a nice match so she can have her own foal to raise and train herself. She is not a mass producer of crappy horses or one who tosses them out after their usefulness is over.

Some of you are way over reacting and if everyone follows this advice, we will end up with the same problems the AKC has seen in overbred purebreds. Seriously. Yes, there needs to be more responsible breeding and less indescriminant breeding. This isn't indescriminant and the mare is much better than most that get bred these days - at least in this country. But better than that, she is useful, nice and loved. We should all be so lucky.

To the OP - The best breeders generally agree that breeding "like to like" is the best strategy for getting the type of horse you want in the first generation. They tend to use "improvers" or out crosses to indroduce different characteristics into a program over several generations.

So you might want to look at another Appendix type that is a little more refined, has a track record of producing eventers or dressage horses for amateurs and has great legs. In other words, a sire with everything good about her and improvement where she needs it.

Find a great repro vet and have a good pre-breeding exam done on her to evaluate her ability to conceive, carry and deliver a foal as safely as possible. They can also answer you questions about the best method to use to breed her (frozen or fresh cooled) and how much it might cost to just get to conception. They may also have a package price for all the follow-up exams, preg checks, vaccination series and pre-foaling shots. Hopefully they will have a package price for foal care to, as that also adds up quickly.

Take your time and do your homework. May be you can even find a mentor to help you with the million questions you are sure to have.

SCFarm

JER
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:24 PM
The OP has already demonstrated that she's not honest about her mare.

She claims what's keeping her mare back in eventing is her lack of dressage movement. But the truth is, her mare's lack of success in eventing (beyond BN) is due to the OP's lack of focus and commitment.

If dressage ability is really preventing the OP's mare from progressing beyond BN, than the OP's mare is a uniquely untalented equine. Any horse with sound moving parts can do a decent dressage test up to Prelim. There is nothing special required except a lengthening and medium trot. Every horse can do that.

(IME, QHs are excellent LL dressage horses even if they're not good movers. They tend to be accurate, honest and they have a natural ability for lateral movement in their shoulders. One year, at my area champs for straight dressage, the Jr Training Level championship class consisted of 4 over-20 QHs and 1 WB. The QHs, mine included, were backyard QH types and not good movers. But they gave their kids an honest ride -- if the aids were correct, they were correct -- and this how they'd qualified for the champs.)

OP, you say you've done your research but what research have you actually done? You don't know what Hilltop is but you can't crack a horse magazine without seeing their breeding ads. You make the claim that you want to breed to a pony to make it 'easier' for your mare but you don't even know the basic facts of breeding.

You don't even seem to know who the good reproductive vets are in your area. You say you'll use the vet you use for 'important' things. If you've done ANY research at all aside from looking at pics of My Little Pony, you'd know one of the keys to successful breeding is a good reproductive vet. A specialist with a verifiable track record.

You say you'll have money saved away for breeding expenses and emergencies but I don't think you have any idea how much money that really is. Are you prepared for 20K or 40K in unexpected vet bills? Why would anyone saddle themselves with this kind of financial risk at your age?

But then you were the one who came on here posting that you had a WS job lined up but wanted to get your tattoo finished so would it be okay if you showed up to work in Crocs. You got lots of good advice on that one -- and took the same defensive, immature stance you're taking now.

You've gotten a LOT of good advice on the BB on many disparate topics. You've had a LOT of time to buckle down and focus on what you claim you really want to do. But you haven't done it. Why not?

Please understand that at some point, people on this BB -- serious people with serious experience and generous spirits -- are going to sour on you. Clearly, they like you and want to help you but they also want to believe your desire to succeed is real. Your posts indicate otherwise, so don't be surprised if the replies indicate that people don't think you're taking any of this seriously.

deltawave
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:32 PM
Although I know this is a common feeling in eventing (esp. among professionals) I think it needs to be pointed out that the OP is admittedly not a professional and not an upper level rider (or even aiming at the upper levels for the mare or foal).

For a lower level amateur training IS hard and not every horse they came across can go training, at least not with them.

I agree that MOST horses that are physically able to jump can jump a training fence but that doesn't mean they can do an entire x-country course especially not with an inexperienced rider (not assuming any level of talent for the OP).

I guess what I'm saying is that we on this forum shouldn't "poo-poo" a rider who is proud of her horse for being a solid BN horse with the ability to go training, even if for some people Training level is merely beginning and not the end goal. :yes:

...should you breed a horse that maxes out at N/T?, well... *shrug*

My point was that having a trainer tell one that "this horse can go Training level for sure" is NOT necessarily a glowing testimonial about the animal's boundless athleticism and talent, nor should it be put forward as evidence of same. :)

poltroon
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:48 PM
I would love to get her advice, but I personally think she is being rather rude to me.

I think subk is giving you a very heartfelt, honest, experienced opinion, something that is to be valued and carefully considered.

Think about this. Suppose you were going around at training, eager to enter your next event at prelim. Suppose your coach told me that he didn't think you were ready yet, that he was worried if you'd be safe. Would you think your coach was being "nice" to you to not mention that he didn't think you were ready, or would you want him to give you his honest opinion and best advice?

It can be disappointing to hear what you don't want to hear... but sometimes disappointment with a path to follow is better than crashing and burning. Your mileage may vary.

It's your life, and it will be your choice. I think everyone here sincerely wishes you the best of luck, however you decide to proceed. :)

Ajierene
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:49 PM
I would still strongly suggest having someone objectively evaluate your mare for breeding potential. I emphasis breeding potential.

I owned a standardbred/app cross filly that I LOVED - easy to break, sweet as pie, loved people, loved kids, loved going places. Great little mare. I was busy and did not have time to ride her. I considered breeding her. Lots of people loved her - great personality, though a really bad height for hunter world (where she was aimed at the time) at 14.3HH. Everyone who loved her also said - what in the world are you going to breed her to? A welsh, connemara, or any other pony breed did not match her conformationally. Even breeding her to a Standardbred or Appaloosa did not fit her conformationally. So, I listened to reason - took off the barn blinders and did not breed her.

My mare, on the other hand, these same people are supportive of the breeding. Still, I started thinking about breeding my mare at least six years ago. One of the big hold ups was having the money and continuous income, to support breeding and all its dangers.

Just from one picture I have trouble really picking a stallion for your mare, though my preference if she is already a mix of two breeds, is to stick to one of those two. So, I suggest having some other people who know your mare evaluate her and help you find a stallion for her. I have consulted several people before settling on the stallion that I picked.

EDIT: Keep in mind that people are giving their opinions based on what they know. As an example, JER thinks me breeding my mare, the one that JER knows from what I have posted on these boards, is a bad idea. This is JER's very valid opinion, given what is known. It was a bit frustrating at first, but then I took a step back, talked to my trainer and realized a:I make my mare sound worse than she is on these boards (my trainer reads these boards and says I say to much about her faults and not enough about her strengths). B: JER's opinion is STILL valid - JER is taking what is known and making an opinion by that - the opinion should be respected, thought over and used as a base to be sure breeding is what I want to do.

The same is true for subk's opinion, and the opinion of other people who are giving their opinion on this thread. Instead of getting upset, take this information back to your trainer(s) and see if they agree or disagree or what else they think of your mare's ability to produce a decent foal.

caffeinated
Dec. 2, 2009, 04:04 PM
I rarely reply when I haven't read every post on a thread, but I simply can't stand it at the moment. I've read enough to feel comfortable saying this though.

Do you folks who are having a cow about the OP breeding her mare really think that she is problem of too many horses in this country? Or even those like her? Do you think you are sending the right message here?

I don't think this thread is about overpopulation or indiscriminate breeding really - I think it's a bunch of people being honest to someone in an attempt to help her out. Many of those responses are from people who made similar decisions in their past and learned from it.

People are even going out and finding stallions they think are a better fit for the mare given the goals of the OP, hardly an "ONLY breed perfect registered horses!" response. :)

Rescue_Rider9
Dec. 2, 2009, 04:35 PM
Thank you everyone for the advice. I am going to be done posting on this thread. Will breed my mare? Probably.. when the time is right. For those of you who assessed the stallion I picked. Thank you for your reasoning to dislike him for my horse. Those of you who also helped me find other stallions, Thank you! Big help.

I want everyone to know I am very serious about what I do.. riding and caring for my horses. I would hate for anyone to think any differently and I DO listen to and take EVERYONES advice on COTH. I am sorry if I get too emotionally involved at times, but I still feel that some of you are being very harsh, but thank you for your advice and I do listen to it.

kookicat
Dec. 2, 2009, 04:40 PM
Honey, the people who you think are being harsh are just being honest. Many of the people on here have (or still do) worked in the horse industry. They are giving your advice that they have learned the hard way.

I'm not that much older than you, and I love getting that advice. Means that I don't have to do it the hard way. :winkgrin:

Tasker
Dec. 2, 2009, 05:00 PM
RR9 - I have grown up on a breeding farm and have been really lucky to have such nice horses to ride my whole life...we're talking 5 generations of horses at this point, BTW and I hate to admit how old I am. Not trying to pick on you in any way at all when I say the following...

Breeding is not for the faint of heart. If you breed your mare, please, please, please be aware that you could lose her during her during the breeding process, her pregnancy, during foaling or post foaling. There are serious risks involved no matter what sized stallion you choose for her that begin way before the actual foaling process. Our repro vet always discourages breeding 'your favorite mare' because of the risks involved and she is not a newbie in the breeding business. Dystocias, rectal tears, red bag deliveries, dummy foals, septic mares, uterine artery ruptures, retained placentas, founder, savage mares that reject their foals, fescue toxicity, lawsonia, and while I stop typing the list of horrible possibilities doesn't stop there. Believe me when I say this (please) - having a foal can be a miraculous, wonderful experience but it can also be one of the most heart breaking, soul destroying experiences.

The other reality of breeding is that your future foal will try to find a way to kill itself after it accumulates an enormous vet bill. That is the way it is with young horses. Unfortunately. :(

Spend some time over in the Sport Horse Breeding Forum and dig up some of the Foals of 200__ threads and it can give you a better sense of how breeding goes for those with multiple mares in foal each year.

If you do decide to breed in the future, please spend a season or two at a large breeding/foaling facility. The ramifications of what seems like a simple & fun idea can be both wonderful and horrific and you need to know that going into this adventure. Or see if you can ride along with a repro vet for a season - like a WS in a riding barn.

Blessed are the Broodmares is an excellent read and a must have for any breeder.

ThirdCharm
Dec. 2, 2009, 05:14 PM
I do know her mom was a small QH. Very broad and pony like and I dont want something to look like a pony. I want to have a horse is small. LOL

Would a connemara give me a horse in small?

So if you figure that your mare's dam contributed 50% of her genetic code, that makes your odds of getting a short, broad, pony-like foal out of your mare at least 25%, providing there are no "ponylike" ponies anywhere in the pedigree of the sire.

Jennifer

findeight
Dec. 2, 2009, 05:45 PM
RR9 - I have grown up on a breeding farm and have been really lucky to have such nice horses to ride my whole life...we're talking 5 generations of horses at this point, BTW and I hate to admit how old I am. Not trying to pick on you in any way at all when I say the following...

Breeding is not for the faint of heart. If you breed your mare, please, please, please be aware that you could lose her during her during the breeding process, her pregnancy, during foaling or post foaling. There are serious risks involved no matter what sized stallion you choose for her that begin way before the actual foaling process. Our repro vet always discourages breeding 'your favorite mare' because of the risks involved and she is not a newbie in the breeding business. Dystocias, rectal tears, red bag deliveries, dummy foals, septic mares, uterine artery ruptures, retained placentas, founder, savage mares that reject their foals, fescue toxicity, lawsonia, and while I stop typing the list of horrible possibilities doesn't stop there. Believe me when I say this (please) - having a foal can be a miraculous, wonderful experience but it can also be one of the most heart breaking, soul destroying experiences.

The other reality of breeding is that your future foal will try to find a way to kill itself after it accumulates an enormous vet bill. That is the way it is with young horses. Unfortunately. :(

Spend some time over in the Sport Horse Breeding Forum and dig up some of the Foals of 200__ threads and it can give you a better sense of how breeding goes for those with multiple mares in foal each year.

If you do decide to breed in the future, please spend a season or two at a large breeding/foaling facility. The ramifications of what seems like a simple & fun idea can be both wonderful and horrific and you need to know that going into this adventure. Or see if you can ride along with a repro vet for a season - like a WS in a riding barn.

Blessed are the Broodmares is an excellent read and a must have for any breeder.

Anybody wanting to breed needs to read this and take it to heart.

I have had a mare now for 10 years and she is my horse of a lifetime, regular and consistent winner, fancy, very pretty, correct conformation with only some minor flaws, killer pedigree for a sporthorse cross-and that is exactly why I chose NOT to breed her. I like her too much. Am haunted by a memory of a gal who bred her favorite mare...and lost both. It's no picnic for the mare.

The getting some time in at a breeding farm or with a repro vet is a wonderful suggestion. I had a part time job at a breeding farm...sucked, tore your heart out. Lasted a month or so in the busy spring season. Just was not what I imagined...and that's another reason why I did not breed my good mare.

Don't know if OP is going to even come back to read this but...I doubt she has a clue what this is going to cost. And for somebody using their college scholarship money to board horses instead of get a savings account started?

I don't care if she breeds or not but do care what happens to some of the foals bred by those who don't realize the costs involved.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Dec. 2, 2009, 06:04 PM
Op, I'm not going to talk you out of breeding your mare and I haven't read all the posts. I will tell you it can be (i.e. often is) crazy expensive to breed a horse.

That said, I agree with the commont about getting the absolute best stallion you can. I think some of the flack you are getting is that you haven't articulated really clear breeding goals?

Also, as mentioned and in my own experience watching breeders for years (dare I say decades now---ugh) the movement produced OFTEN comes from the dam. I've seen this repeatedly, so look for a stallion who really stamps his offspring in the gaits you want to improve. Also don't forget rideablility!!! For the baby's sake breed to a good natured stallion...just in case the unthinkable happens and you are forced to sell sometime down the road. The offspring will have a much better chance of finding a good home.

faluut42
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:16 PM
what about this guy?
http://www.secretambitionstables.com/burdallordsolomon.htm

WAY cute jump, awsome mover and not too expensive. He has nice offpsring out of all breeds of mares (including tbs and qhs).

might be something to look into.

EventerAJ
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:14 PM
OP, though I know you said you're done posting in this thread, I hope you are still reading. There is a lot of good advice here, from all perspectives. I haven't read a single reply that is mean-spirited or viciously attacking you or your mare. Everyone really seems to have your best interests in mind, whether you accept that or not. To you, they are all complete strangers... but please do not assume they are all low-level wanna-be's. They have been there/done that at levels much higher than you, and offer you wisdom that you should at least respect, even though you may not understand it now.


I can sympathize with your situation. I also have a mare that I adore, a once-in-a-lifetime horse. Super smart, trainable, great work ethic, a joy to ride every day. She's athletic, loves to jump, but her TB movement (limited shoulder-swing and suspension) is her weakness. BUT, unlike your mare, mine is proven at the CCI** and advanced level. She can gallop all day long across any terrain, and has *soundly* competed prelim+ for 5 years. She jumps 4'+ with ease and enthusiasm. There is no doubt in my mind that she has the talent to jump around Rolex.

I'm also blessed to work (and board my horse) on a TB breeding farm. Here in Lexington, I also have access to some of the very best repro vets in the world.

And you know what? I still think VERY HARD about breeding her someday (NOT in the near future, I hope we have a few more years going Advanced together!). I would be so very, very happy to have an exact replica of her: a talented event horse, hopefully capable to do upper levels... but I still question the decision: what will she pass on to her foal? I could end up with a "6" mover, not the "9" I want. She can be snarky on the ground, she isn't a cuddly teddy bear. I could end up with a genetic rogue, barely 15h with no athleticism. It's a crapshoot. All in all, I *do* more or less feel that her DNA is worth passing on. But there is still the huge risk of complications breeding ANY mare, and I worry about that, too. Fortunately, the breeding decision won't be made until her competitive career winds down, so I still have some time to think this through. :)

I guess my main point about breeding is, WHY should we breed anything less than the best? Think about it in terms of the racehorse industry. Only 20 horses a year make it to the Derby; 80% of racehorses simply ARE NOT Grade I caliber. Does that mean most TB breeders are specifically breeding for claiming-quality horses? No way! You breed the BEST to the BEST, and *still* you end up with lower-level horses. There's not much need to breed for low-level horses from the get-go. They're gonna happen anyway. ;)

I know you love your mare very much, as I do mine. But I promise you, other special horses will come along. Consider yourself and where you want to be in 10 years, and ask yourself seriously "Will this future horse help me get where I want to be?" Your answer may change in the coming year(s). Be honest with yourself and what you want to be. (See my signature below).