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vineyridge
Nov. 30, 2009, 08:45 PM
First of all, y'all need to know that Angel is every bit as fearful as MM has told us here. I've never met a dog who is so afraid of, well, everything.

We are in the middle of starting all over from scratch. Last night, I went to bed early after taking Angel out for a fruitless last opportunity to do her business. Her bed was a crate in the small cave under the foot of my sleigh bed, and the door to the bathroom and my computer room with comfortable chair was open. The hall door to the computer room was closed, and she had the run of my bedroom, the living room/dog door, bathroom and computer room. The door to the crate was open, and her food and water were in there. All of my dogs were being perfectly kind to the new one, but I could tell from her body language that she was terrified.

I turned off the light and went to sleep with Toby and Pearl and Sissy. Hoover was in his place, and Angel was in the computer room when she had come when I was posting last night. The whole time I was on the computer she was pressed against my leg, which I thought was a very good sign.

When I woke at about 2 or so to do MY evening business, she was in the bathroom with me. As I went back to bed, I could see her head poking out of the bathroom door. Then it started to rain, and we had a bit of thunder. It rained the rest of the night.

I awoke around eight, and there was NO Angel. The kitchen door to the back porch and the back porch door were open. I don't know if they had been open all night because I had forgotten to close them, or if the dogs had pushed them open, but open they were and Angel was gone. She was nowhere in the house, which is full of dog caves; I had left the door to the back closet open, in case she wanted to hide there, and I have other caves here and there under furniture that she could have hidden in. But she hadn't.

I'm almost hoarse from singing her name in the backyard, the front yard, the barn, the headquarters, and all over my property. My dogs have been acting all day as if she were around, but she won't come to me. Sometimes, frightened dogs will move under the house in the crawl space, so I got a flashlight and searched through all the openings, but couldn't see anything that looked like her. The dogs also were going into and out of a place that is under a magnolia with almost impenetrable bamboo, and as I looked in as best I could, I couldn't tell if the brown and gray that I saw were leaves or Angel.

I was desolated to say the least, and having to tell MM was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

Tonight, I started singing to Angel again. This time I thought I heard a sort response back in the windbreak. Then the beagle started doing his hunting call, and all of the dogs went over to a huge pile of downed trees and brush left over from the tornado this spring. In and out they went, over and over, so I got my flashlight and shone it in the cave like parts, and THERE SHE WAS! She wouldn't come to me, but I saw her and know that she is still here.

I've put food out next to the wash house (I have my washing machine and dryer in an old farm building because I'm terrified of lint fires), and I'm going to leave the door open tonight with her bed and MM's Tshirt snugly under cover, although tonight is absolutely clear and beautiful. I've also opened the door to the hay shed.

She JUST this minute walked into my bathroom! Hallelujah! And she just this minute went back out the dog door again. I cannot push her at all; when she wants to come it's got to be her idea. She really is very fragile, and I cannot afford to lose her trust.

citydog
Nov. 30, 2009, 08:54 PM
Yikes.

MunchkinsMom
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:16 PM
I'm sorry that Angel is doing that with Viney, but after all my experiences with her, the fact that she came in the dog door on her own to look for Viney was HUGE for Angel.

I'm just hopeful that all the work I did with her in the past year will make this transistion easier for her, and I am grateful beyond measure that she is staying on the property (she never did wander far from where she felt safe, even here, her roaming was very limited to just a few farms).

I'll tell all of you, my very first over-emotional reaction was to jump on the first plane to the closest airport to Viney's place, and help with the search, and bring Angel home.

Now that I know she felt comfortable enough to come inside Viney's house on her own really made me feel good. Especially when I remember how long it took for me to get her to come into the wide open barn all last year.

I will tell you that once Angel trusts Viney, her fears will be replaced with happiness, the same that they were here on my farm.

I know that Viney has a good canine attracting aura about her, and despite this rocky (and rather heartstopping) start, that it will come out okay, and that both Viney and I are blessed that Angel has come into our lives.

dawglover
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:29 PM
:eek:

Come on now Angel girl, trust Viney.

Sending my very best wishes and good vibes.

fivehorses
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:36 PM
Am I misunderstanding? Are you saying now that Angel has been found, you are allowing her to come and go at will?

Yikes, that seems really dangerous, even if I did that with one of my own dogs in a new place.
Not to blow darts, but I just had to ask and if my understanding is correct, really suggest you not let her come and go at will.

Equino
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:37 PM
That is quite a frightening experience! Poor Angel. So, let me see if I understand-you brought her home and even though you could tell she was terrified, she was loose in the house with all your dogs? Then the doors were open and she escaped? Is your property fenced in? That seems to be a lot for a fragile dog like Angel to handle all at once. Glad to hear she is at least staying close by and checking in on you. Actually, she seems to be adapting more like a cat than a dog in that matter. Good luck!

MunchkinsMom
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:52 PM
In Viney's defense, she didn't just allow Angel to get loose. Knowing Angel as well as I do, she really does do better if she is allowed to decide, without pressure.

When she first mastered the dog door here, she would go out and stay out for hours and hours in the front yard, and I would have to go and get her for several weeks. Sometimes she would follow the other dogs back in, but not often. And this was after she had been confined to the house for several weeks. She would not come in when I called her in those days.

Over time, she would come in, check to see that I was still here, and then go back out. She loves to be outside, and loved to lay on the front steps, where she could be outside, yet know where I was.

It was only in the last two or three weeks that she would come running when I called her.

So, I think Viney is doing the best that she can with a dog like Angel. I do confirm that Angel is not a confident dog, at least not when interacting with humans, and I think once she begins to play with Viney's other dogs (which I think she will), it will get easier.

There is no saying that even if Viney had kept her confined to the house for several weeks that Angel would not take off at the first chance that she got, so maybe in a strange way, this is for the best. We will all just have to continue to give both Angel and Viney our long-distance support, and jingles and prayers for a good long happy life for them both.

FalseImpression
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:52 PM
I understood that the door was opened by the other dogs and I don't think Viney had time to close any door when Angel came in before she turned around and went out again.

But if she did come in on her own, it is a good step in the right direction. I think I would also try to keep her in for a while, but she must be hungry/thirsty too. Poor girl! Nobody said it was going to be easy for anyone. However, I have a feeling Viney's dogs are a bit more relaxed than MM's.

I am sure Viney will get through to Angel, even if once again, it takes a very long time! Come on Angel, nobody is going to hurt you.

Zu Zu
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:54 PM
WOW ! Not exactly what I wanted to read. Jingles for Angel ~

Equino
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:01 PM
I understand things happen, doors get open and dogs escape. I'm just surprised given Angel's emotional state and the stress of being in a new home that she was loose with other dogs and given so much room to roam so soon. It was different for you at the beginning, MM, Angel chose your place for whatever reason. She has now, as far as she is concerned, been dropped in the middle of nowhere, far from her home. That's why I was taken aback by the situation. Even with a puppy, I find a slow introduction to their environment and other animals is best. We've fostered rescue dogs before and did things differently. But everyone has their own way. Really hope it all works out.

AKB
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:03 PM
It sounds like a difficult situation, but one that is being well handled. I'm glad Angel felt comfortable enough to come back into the house. In a few weeks, she should be settled in. I know how hard it is to get an anxious dog to relax. We rescued a retriever many years ago, and it was almost impossible to get him to stop worrying during his first few months with us.

MunchkinsMom
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:06 PM
I understood that the door was opened by the other dogs and I don't think Viney had time to close any door when Angel came in before she turned around and went out again.

But if she did come in on her own, it is a good step in the right direction. I think I would also try to keep her in for a while, but she must be hungry/thirsty too. Poor girl! Nobody said it was going to be easy for anyone. However, I have a feeling Viney's dogs are a bit more relaxed than MM's.

I am sure Viney will get through to Angel, even if once again, it takes a very long time! Come on Angel, nobody is going to hurt you.

Damn, I had a whole good reply typed up, and lost it.

At any rate, I was attesting to the fact that Angel is quick when she wants to get out, and many times she would come in, look at me, I would call her, and she would scoot back out the door.

And honestly, if we had not trapped her using the neighbors puppy as bait, she would probably still be living in my pasture under the horse trailer untouched.

So, I am encouraged that she had the bravery to go back into Viney's house in less than 24 hours, and if she feels free to come and go as she pleases, that Angel will overcome her fear and learn to love Viney too.

She is not like any of the countless dogs that I have owned in the past 45 years, and that includes dogs that we rescued from the pound, and dogs we raised from puppyhood.

FatPalomino
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:17 PM
I'm glad Angel came back. She sure is trying, isn't she?

Viney, could you explain your plan for Angel? I'm most interested in knowing how you will deal with her interdog aggression, esp. as she needs to stay loose, without being crates alone. I'm really looking to learn something here, no rudeness intended.

(FWIW I don't mention it much but for the past 10 yrs have rehabbed aggressive dogs- usually the ones that come into the vet's to be PTS. I recently repo'd a pup we adopted out who is biting people....)

FalseImpression
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:29 PM
FP. I truly do not believe that Angel is an aggressive dog. I really do not think it is in her. Something made her click with C., but she never showed signs of aggression with the other dogs IIRC. It was just this instance with one dog. So, I would NOT keep putting the "aggressive" label on her. Nobody seems to be putting that same label on the other dog!

I had a black lab (the one who bit my daughter) who was passive aggressive with other dogs. If they did not come near him, he was fine and ignored him. If they came to sniff, watch out! He became that way when two dobermans came out of nowhere and were on top of him. They did not hurt him because their owner called them back on time and they listened. But the harm was done. To me an aggressive dog is one that is looking for a fight, all the time. Absolutely NOT Angel!

MunchkinsMom
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:31 PM
FP, I am 100% sure that Angel is not aggressive unless provoked, and I am 100% sure that Cubby started the fight at my house, and that Angel had had enough.

It may have also been that despite the fact that I have 1/2 acre fenced off for the dogs, that it still was not enough freedom for them to get away from each other when the excitment level of barking at the car in the driveway escallated to the point of turning on each other.

I'm sure Viney must be sleeping by now, since she spent the entire day looking for Angel, who is really good at hiding when she wants to. From what she told me about her current dogs, they are much less intense than Cubby is. I will admit that Cubby takes her "jobs" very seriously, and I'm sure that was part of it.

MunchkinsMom
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:34 PM
And yes, Angel can be very trying, she is a lesson in learning to use extreme patience (which was not my strong suit before she came into my life). Back on the original thread a good friend of mine suggested that the title of her life story should be "Tested by an Angel". And I think it will be.

vineyridge
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:36 PM
Since she is willing to use the dog door, which goes onto the front porch, I've moved the dog bed with MM's T shirt, her bowls, her food and her water out there. My dogs free feed inside, so they won't steal the food tonight.

Thing is that I did not think confining her was the way to gain/keep her trust because she is so nearly feral and so timid. She needs to be free in her mind to accept what is here. She trusts me enough to want to stay around, which is where I thought we had gotten when we arrived here, and the fact that she chose to come in tonight to make sure that I was still here is very encouraging. I had hoped that by the end of the trip I would be her new Rock of Stability in the new place, and that seems to have worked out as I hoped. Now, my hope is that she will make friends outside and play with the hounds, who are very laid back and welcoming and they will persuade her to remember that she really is a house dog; although if she wants to be a yard dog, she is free to make that choice.

It's all going to have to be up to her, or she won't blossom and feel safe in her new environment. I do have to say that in all my years of being a dog magnet, I've never met one quite like her. :yes:

fooler
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:40 PM
At this point we have to trust Viney's instincts, who after all is the one who stepped up to give Angel another chance.
Kudos to both MM and Viney for their efforts.

FYI - I have 2 'feral' barn cats, one who has recently decided, after 3+ years, that he enjoys pets and scritches. The female loves me at feeding time - but very, very cautious - after 3 years. Each comes at their own time, if they completely come at all.

jetsmom
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:44 PM
Viney, thank you for your patience and the updates.

If she is loose, would it be possible to get a collar and ID tags with your Ph# and address, just in case she were to wander off? Just a thought. Although the chance of someone else catching her would be slim, AC might be able to if she were cornered, or heaven forbid, if she were hit by a car. Just as some insurance that if she were lost and someone found her, you'd get a call.

Also, make sure the microchip, (if she has one) is updated with your info.

vineyridge
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:45 PM
Angel is so far from interdog aggression that it isn't funny. As long as she has a way to escape, she's the kind of dog who will run from confrontation if she has a chance. Or at least that's how she seems to me.

My dogs are used to having other dogs drop in and out through the dog door on a pretty regular basis. I often say that I'm running doggie day care because so many of the neighbors' dogs treat my house as their own. Mine don't really seem to care. I've even had the neighbors' dogs sleep over in my bed with me, sharing with mine.

MunchkinsMom
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:48 PM
It's all going to have to be up to her, or she won't blossom and feel safe in her new environment. I do have to say that in all my years of being a dog magnet, I've never met one quite like her. :yes:

I trust Viney's instincts on this. I feel that over time (and hopefully not as long a time as it took me) that Angel will feel safe and blossom to her full potential.

Cloverbarley
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:51 PM
My dogs are used to having other dogs drop in and out through the dog door on a pretty regular basis. I often say that I'm running doggie day care because so many of the neighbors' dogs treat my house as their own. Mine don't really seem to care. I've even had the neighbors' dogs sleep over in my bed with me, sharing with mine.
How do the neighbors dogs get into your yard and your house? I know you say your dogs don't care about the neighbors dogs coming in, but will Angel accept that? I wonder if you could keep them out for the time being so that Angel gets to know your dogs before having to be put in a situation with more strange dogs "invading" her new home? I agree with you on the trying to keep it as stressfree for Angel, I'm just not sure that by allowing all the neighborhood dogs into your house would be a positive experience for Angel at this point in time.

Best of luck. She does sound like a lovely dog and I hope it all works out well.

clm08
Nov. 30, 2009, 11:01 PM
Viney, thanks for posting and letting us know how Angel is doing, even if it is not the rosy start everybody would like to read. I do believe that you will gain her trust with time and patience. She is obviously a very different dog than most of us has ever met and will require a lot of TLC on your part just like MM showed her.

Of course Angel feels lost and is looking for MM and places familiar to her, but dogs are resilient and you seem to have a good dog sense to help her out. I wish you the best of luck and thank you for opening your heart to Angel.

suze
Nov. 30, 2009, 11:20 PM
Thanks for the update, Viney! To me you sound like the perfect person for her & understand that things for now have to be on her terms so as not to scare her off. I too think it's great that she came in on her own & I think the fact that the neighbors dogs stroll in & out & your dogs are totally nonchalant about it is a positive thing; if there's no big deal about sharing you or your space I think she may relax quicker. JMHO

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 1, 2009, 12:23 AM
Viney, thank you for your patience and the updates.

If she is loose, would it be possible to get a collar and ID tags with your Ph# and address, just in case she were to wander off? Just a thought. Although the chance of someone else catching her would be slim, AC might be able to if she were cornered, or heaven forbid, if she were hit by a car. Just as some insurance that if she were lost and someone found her, you'd get a call.

Also, make sure the microchip, (if she has one) is updated with your info.

As long as she manages to keep the collar on that she was wearing when she left here, it does have her rabies tag, and the ResQ ID tag that says she is microchipped. Her chip is currently registered to me, and I have passed the information on to Viney so that she can change the contact information. Of course if I were to get the call, Viney would be the first person that I would call.

You are right, the chances of a total stranger "catching" her, are probably pretty darned slim. She managed to outsmart our animal control officers for 4 months here.

And I think Viney said she was going to order a new collar with Angel's name and Viney's phone number on them.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 1, 2009, 12:31 AM
but will Angel accept that? I wonder if you could keep them out for the time being so that Angel gets to know your dogs before having to be put in a situation with more strange dogs "invading" her new home?

I can tell you that for the 4 months that she lived in my house, she didn't have any problems with new dogs coming in. We dog-sit for my neighbor's pomeranian, who was here twice, and the only thing that Angel didn't like was the first night when Sadie jumped into Angels bed (Sadie used to sleep in it before Angel came to live in the house), and Angel came sulking to me. So I extracted Sadie from the dog bed, and the next night Angel made sure that she got to it before Sadie did. She was also good about my niece's dog little dog Onyx, even when he jumped all over her wanting to play.

At this point, she may not even realize that Viney's neighbors dogs don't really live there.

MHM
Dec. 1, 2009, 12:43 AM
At this point, she may not even realize that Viney's neighbors dogs don't really live there.

Right??

Angel's probably thinking, "Wow, Viney must own a LOT of dogs- I'm still meeting new ones!" :lol:

Best wishes for Angel in her new home.

sdlbredfan
Dec. 1, 2009, 01:27 AM
I think Viney's methods are exactly what Angel needs. It appears to me that Viney's dogs themselves will quickly bring Angel up to speed on the setup of her new home, and will reassure her that she is welcomed and that she can trust Viney.

kdow
Dec. 1, 2009, 03:35 AM
FP. I truly do not believe that Angel is an aggressive dog. I really do not think it is in her. Something made her click with C., but she never showed signs of aggression with the other dogs IIRC. It was just this instance with one dog. So, I would NOT keep putting the "aggressive" label on her. Nobody seems to be putting that same label on the other dog!

This is my read of things, too. If anything, I would be keeping an eye on Cubby just to make sure nothing develops into aggression on her end.

If Angel is ever aggressive at all, the chances are very strong that it will be fear-based aggression - where she feels like she has NO other option but to attack. Being relaxed with her and not pushing too hard or restraining her (except when necessary for her health and safety) is probably a reasonable approach for her.

That said, I probably would try to set her up for plenty of 'bonding moments' over the next few days - sit outside with the other dogs restrained somewhere (so they can't get in the way) with a super-tasty treat and see if Angel will come for it, that kind of thing. Not with the goal of catching her, just with the goal of strengthening the viney = good things! connection in her head. :) (I'd probably actually sit with a book or something so I WASN'T obviously actively watching her, and let her 'sneak up' on me.)

Bluey
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:19 AM
We raised an older coyote puppy we found with our dogs, keeping her first confined and eventually free in the house and yard.
I took her thru obedience class, but she was always very shy and worked at her own pace, was always kind of wild and way overreactive.
Her favorite spot was under a chair.:)

I don't think you can handle or expect from feral animals, as this dog and our coyote was, to act like well socialized dogs.
Best not to have a time frame and let them work things as they wish, then let them be who they are.
Eventually, they come around, but will always have some feral default behaviors.

The worrysome part of such animals is that we hope they stay safe when they have a meltdown.
Looks like Angel is trying to figure how to come back in and her old fears are talking to her.
Eventually, she should overcome them again, since she already did once and it gets easier every time.:yes:

libgrrl
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:23 AM
This website (and the individual who maintains it) is a great resource for dogs like Angel:

http://www.fearfuldogs.com/

Cloverbarley
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:43 AM
At this point, she may not even realize that Viney's neighbors dogs don't really live there.

Lol! Yes that's true :). I wish Angel (and Viney) all the best and hope it works out beautifully.

harveyhorses
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:46 AM
Thanks for the update, Viney! To me you sound like the perfect person for her & understand that things for now have to be on her terms so as not to scare her off. I too think it's great that she came in on her own & I think the fact that the neighbors dogs stroll in & out & your dogs are totally nonchalant about it is a positive thing; if there's no big deal about sharing you or your space I think she may relax quicker. JMHO
Thanks for the update, it seems to me once she decides it is o.k. she will be better, but to try and force her or keep her penned up would (IMO) really stress her out.

x-rab
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:06 AM
My current dog was very fearful when I got him. He was not feral, but he was the omega dog in a fairly large pack. For what ever reason when we got Mack, he decided I was his person. Until that point, he would run and hide from anyone who came close to him. When I walked him, he would try to run away from anyone who approached us on our walks and he barely tolerated my husband. The first person outside my house who got close to Mack was my neighbor's daughter, who was 3 at the time. She would very slowly and carefully approached him and pet him. The men in my neighborhood took it as a point of pride when Mack would allow them to approach him to pet him.

These days he is much bolder although he is still somewhat shy. Everyone who visits my home remarks about how much friendlier and less shy he is. He has even become a "bad" dog, stealing the bag of dog cookies out of the pantry so he could dine at his leisure on his cookie rug. I should discipline him more, but am so happy he is a terrier now instead of a shadow, I can't do it.

lcw579
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:20 AM
Viney, I think you are spot on in your approach to helping Angel settle in to her new home. Seems to me that if you tried to confine her she would take the first opportunity to skedaddle. The fact that she has already come in the house to look for you is huge. It also sounds like having a group of laid back dogs around will do her a world of good and help keep her stress level down.

Thanks for the update.

vineyridge
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:39 AM
This morning's update:


SHE'S STILL HERE!

Angel was on the front porch when I woke this morning, and MM's T Shirt in Angel's bed was well rumpled. All her food was gone, and she had drunk some water. When I went out, Angel backed away, but she did stay looking at me. I told her over and over what a good girl she is, and didn't push trying to touch her. Hoover, my basset, has been working basset magic. He's a totally non dominant personality, as bassets usually are, and he loves to play with other dogs.

I plan to spend a good bit of time in the yard around her, just sitting and reading for the first few days. I think mowing and weedeating might stress her too much.

mkevent
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:43 AM
Viney-kudos for you for taking Angel!!

I read somewhere that for every year of abuse, it takes 3 years to undo it. I would believe it. We have a Corgi that we adopted from a rescue that was a breeding dog in a puppy mill. She was so fearful when we got her it was heartbreaking. We've had her six years and I think our other dogs have really helped her learn to be a dog.

She's made such progress that I know at least when she passes, she's learned that people are capable of kindness and that life is not just filled with cruelty. She has learned to come back to me the few times she escaped from the yard. To have earned the trust of a fearful dog is a blessing in itself.

Whoanellie
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:45 AM
:D

FalseImpression
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:52 AM
Thank you for the great morning update! I am glad to know she ate and drank something! Paws up to Hoover as well!

vineyridge
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:07 AM
Viney-kudos for you for taking Angel!!

I read somewhere that for every year of abuse, it takes 3 years to undo it. I would believe it. We have a Corgi that we adopted from a rescue that was a breeding dog in a puppy mill. She was so fearful when we got her it was heartbreaking. We've had her six years and I think our other dogs have really helped her learn to be a dog.


Now that's interesting. I have a Chessie who was rescued from a breeding establishment when she was about three, very unsocialized and untrained,then went through a lot--new owner turned her in to Humane Society after about six months, adopted out, returned, adopted out returned again--before she finally made it to me. I can tolerate almost all dog behavior, as long as it isn't intentionally hostile, and the fact that she wasn't reliably housetrained and ate her own poop, was not a "deal breaker" for me. She's now been here four or five years, and it's only within the last year or so that she will leave the house and wander the yard with the other dogs, let my neighbor (or any other human being) touch her, and be mellow inside the walls. The poop eating has gone, and she will use the dog door when I tell her to go out. She is FINALLY blossoming. She'll never be a confident dog with other people, but she knows that she's loved, and she's only now learning to play and be happy. Her tail has wagged more in the last six months than in all the previous years put together.

The upside is that she's a wonderful watch dog, and stands at the back door barking when anyone comes into the drive.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:31 AM
This morning's update:


SHE'S STILL HERE!

Angel was on the front porch when I woke this morning, and MM's T Shirt in Angel's bed was well rumpled. All her food was gone, and she had drunk some water. When I went out, Angel backed away, but she did stay looking at me. I told her over and over what a good girl she is, and didn't push trying to touch her. Hoover, my basset, has been working basset magic. He's a totally non dominant personality, as bassets usually are, and he loves to play with other dogs.

I plan to spend a good bit of time in the yard around her, just sitting and reading for the first few days. I think mowing and weedeating might stress her too much.

That is wonderful news. I'm sorry that you have to almost start at square one with her, but if I think about it, it makes sense, she has no history with you yet, and needs to learn on her own that you are her new person. I'm so glad that I sent her bed and the t-shirt (and if you need more, let me know, I can fed-ex my whole hamper of dirty clothes to you - LOL).

I forgot to tell you, she also likes the Retreiver brand puppy biscuits that they sell at tractor supply, I had a stash of them in my desk drawer, and a few other strategic spots in the house, so I could give her a treat whenever she would come in to me. Yes, it created a bit of a "monster" as she quickly figured that out, but whatever. And then of course the other dogs figured it out too, that when Angel came in, they should follow her, as treats were sure to follow.

Once she gets used to you, the mowing and weedeating will not phase her in the least, she would lay in the pasture while I mowed, and I could even run the mower pretty darned close to where she was laying, and all she would do is get up and move a few feet, and lay back down.

Thanks so much for the update!

moonriverfarm
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:47 AM
I rescued a feral chihuahua (yes) from a breeder. The dog was kept outside in a pen with other female dogs and only touched when it was time to breed her (more like rape I think as she was held down) and then when she delivered my c-section. When the breeder gave her to me (long story) in a crate and I opened the crate in my den she shot out of it like a bullet and spent two weeks under the Christmas tree. I left food and water and pee pads for her and went about my business. I had 4 other chihuahuas at the time and they sort of ignored her. She was mentally fried. Totally afraid of EVERYTHING associated with humans. It took 4 months before she allowed me to really pet her, another month before she sat next to me on the couch and a full 7 months before I could pick her up. My husband still cannot approach her, but if he is in the chair she comes and lies on his stomach and stares at him. She is still skittish but I can pick her up, kiss her face and love on her, although she never truly relaxes when I do. She is also an escape artist having gotten out once and taken off to the woods where i found her two hours later, and another time unbeknownst to me she jumped out of my car at the feed store and it was a full 24 hours before i found her. She had been seen but nobody could get near her.
All this said I admire you viney for taking Angel on. Feral, fearful dogs are a real challenge. But when that fear is conquered it is so special.

Milocalwinnings
Dec. 1, 2009, 12:19 PM
Glad to hear she's sticking around... seems like that's a good sign! Keep us updated- I'm interested to see how this all plays out!

And I just have to say, Hoover is the perfect name for a basset hound!:lol:

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 1, 2009, 12:32 PM
All this said I admire you viney for taking Angel on. Feral, fearful dogs are a real challenge. But when that fear is conquered it is so special.

Yes, when Angel began to show the tiniest signs of trust with me, it warmed my heart like nothing else on earth.

Equilibrium
Dec. 1, 2009, 01:26 PM
So glad to hear this update!

Terri

Buffyblue
Dec. 1, 2009, 04:23 PM
Great news! So glad she didn't run away! Not sure if any of it is helpful to you, but interestingly enough there is an article in the newsletter my dog's food company sends me with suggestions on dealing with fearful dogs. If I can manage to post the link...

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/education/resources/fearful-pets.shtml

vineyridge
Dec. 1, 2009, 04:48 PM
She's still in the front yard.

When I went out at noon, she was on the top step, but left immediately. Calling did no good, as she started ambling out the driveway. I decided then that discretion was the better choice, so I put her rope tug toy in her bed and came back in.

Farrier came this afternoon, and when I got back from the barn she was on the front walk. I ignored her, came in and filled her bowls with food and water, and put them out on the porch. So even though we have had a serious regression, she hasn't decided to leave. Which is a good thing. :)

suze
Dec. 1, 2009, 04:54 PM
Thanks for the updates! I'm so glad she's still around and feels comfortable enough to be on the porch. How about offering her some steak or chicken leftovers like MM used to do? High quality treats might make her a little more willing to come close. I'd be talking to her whenever she's in the vicinity, not necessarily looking at her, but nonsense conversation that includes her name & praise words.

MHM
Dec. 1, 2009, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the update.

BTW, just out of curiosity, Viney- how many dogs do you have there?

vineyridge
Dec. 1, 2009, 05:31 PM
I have six now with Angel that are mine. Then my backyard tenant has two--one who spends his owner's workday over here, and a yard dog whom we both feed. A neighbor down the road has an adolescent pit bull bitch, who is very, very sweet, who seems to spend her days down here as well. Neighbor has gone off to Nashville for classes for his job, so that might explain her constant presence. Although she was down here an awful lot even before. He bought her for a hog dog, which is a total joke, given her personality.

MHM
Dec. 1, 2009, 05:36 PM
I'm a little afraid to ask, but- what's a hog dog?

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 1, 2009, 06:25 PM
Viney, thanks for the update, and sorry that she has regressed back to this point, but with time and perserverence, she will come around.

I will admit that it breaks my heart thinking that she is looking for me, and I hope over time that she gets over it, and views you as her new person. I suppose I should not be surprised though. My brittany, Murphy, will sulk when I have to go away, and stays out on the front yard waiting for me, and won't come in easily for my husband (and geeze, she has lived with him her whole life too!).

You can try what I used to do, either leave a trail of food (cheese, hot dogs, whatever leftover meat is in the house), and also just toss some in her direction and then leave, and she should come and eat them. And over time she will start to look for you and the treats, just like she did with me.

sidepasser
Dec. 1, 2009, 06:52 PM
A hog dog is a dog that is trained to hunt wild hogs. They really need to be a bit alpha and not afraid of much at all. Many hog dogs are pitts or crosses, some have some mastiff in them and hound.

vineyridge
Dec. 1, 2009, 07:17 PM
They are supposed to be dogs who are willing to grapple with wild hogs. Sidepasser has got it right. The Catahoula is the classic southern hog dog, at least around here, but this girl is pure pit--and a sweeter dog never lived, except where cats are concerned, but she wasn't trained by a cat when she was a real puppy. :)

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:10 PM
I have a friend in WI whose boyfriend raises dogs for hunting bears. I can't imagine what breed they are, nor can I imagine what bear hunting would be like.

I'm hoping for more good updates on little Angel tomorrow.

Cindyg
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:37 PM
Viney, help us picture your property. How big is it? I assume there's no fence (that will hold a dog) around the perimeter? How far are you from the road?

I think some of us are concerned that Angel will simply take off. I guess what you're saying is that there's nothing to prevent that, right?

I'm not saying that your approach is wrong; I just want to picture the set up.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:47 PM
I'll have to wait for Viney to answer that, as I didn't drive all the way to her place, we met halfway. But I don't think her yard is fenced, and it is pretty rural, not near a main road like my farm is.

I'll be honest, I was happy to hear that Angel was hanging around, I was scared she might try a "Lassie Come Home" thing, but I think because she is so insecure, that she will not travel far. Even when she was loose here, before the capture, her "range" was about 1/8 of a mile max. She mostly hung out at my farm, the two farms on either side of me, and the big pasture behind me, and occassionally the other few farms in the neighborhood. My neighborhood consists of 22 ten acre farms (total of 220 acres), and then the 17 acre farm next to mine. She especially didn't roam far once I started feeding her.

So, I think that as long as she has a reliable food source, and places where she can feel safe, even if it is under a horse trailer or on Viney's front porch, she will stay in that area.

MHM
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:48 PM
Eee. Thanks for the info. Sounds like being a hog dog could cause health problems for the dog. :(

Hoping for more good Angel updates. :yes:

MHM
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:50 PM
So, I think that as long as she has a reliable food source, and places where she can feel safe, even if it is under a horse trailer or on Viney's front porch, she will stay in that area.

Here's hoping! :)

lcw579
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:53 PM
Thanks so much for all the updates. Hopefully it won't take Angel long to realize that she is in a good safe place.


Am I the only one that laughed out loud at the mere thought of a feral chihuahua? Just wondering.....

FatPalomino
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:07 AM
I think some of us are concerned that Angel will simply take off. I guess what you're saying is that there's nothing to prevent that, right?

I'm not saying that your approach is wrong; I just want to picture the set up.

I have to admit- I cringed when I heard that Angel is super fearful and getting rehomed (imagine the anxiety/fear level there), isn't 'really' aggressive to other dogs (isn't that why she was rehomed?), the neighbors dogs come in and free feed, no fenced area, no current ID tags (if nothing else, helpful if hit by a car, not all clinics have chip scanners), and no behavior mod. plan. Even if there isn't a busy road around- there are neighbors that probably have cars. Heck, I've seen owners run over their own loose dogs.

I've taken in darn feral-like dogs, puppy mill kind. They all come around... dogs are so resilient. That said, truly frightened ones have always ran from confrontations with other dogs (except one that was starved and guarded food while eating, pretty understandable).

I've heard the line that a dog "wasn't really dog aggressive". That was the dog who killed my foster dog, as my foster dog lied on his back during the entire fight. The "not really dog aggressive" dog didn't have a mark on him, but tore my dog's jugular and probably his trachea, too. So, excuses "a 1/2 acre wasn't enough space for two dogs to get away from each other" or that the dogs have a dominance problem- really strike me the wrong way.

I really hope Angel is one of the lucky ones- who stays far away from vehicles, won't get kicked by a horse or injured and need to be caught/treated, won't get in another fight, and won't leave.

dalpal
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:13 AM
I have to admit- I cringed when I heard that Angel is super fearful and getting rehomed (imagine the anxiety/fear level there), isn't 'really' aggressive to other dogs (isn't that why she was rehomed?), the neighbors dogs come in and free feed, no fenced area, no current ID tags (if nothing else, helpful if hit by a car, not all clinics have chip scanners), and no behavior mod. plan. Even if there isn't a busy road around- there are neighbors that probably have cars. Heck, I've seen owners run over their own loose dogs.

I've taken in darn feral-like dogs, puppy mill kind. They all come around... dogs are so resilient. That said, truly frightened ones have always ran from confrontations with other dogs (except one that was starved and guarded food while eating, pretty understandable).

I've heard the line that a dog "wasn't really dog aggressive". That was the dog who killed my foster dog, as my foster dog lied on his back during the entire fight. The "not really dog aggressive" dog didn't have a mark on him, but tore my dog's jugular and probably his trachea, too. So, excuses "a 1/2 acre wasn't enough space for two dogs to get away from each other" or that the dogs have a dominance problem- really strike me the wrong way.

I really hope Angel is one of the lucky ones- who stays far away from vehicles, won't get kicked by a horse or injured and need to be caught/treated, won't get in another fight, and won't leave.

You know....everyone is entitled to their opinions...but if I recall..ONE person stepped up to help this dog..ONE. Otherwise, this dog would have been taken to the humane society, put in a cage and would have really crumbled.

So let's give VR a little support here, eh? Sure any of those things could happen, but unless someone else here wants to step up and offer the "perfect" home for this dog (perfect meaning, how YOU would do things), let's allow VR a chance to do things HER way and not criticize her method.

vineyridge
Dec. 2, 2009, 09:23 AM
She was still here this morning, hanging out in the front yard with Hoover and the pit bull adolescent female. All of her food and water was gone, so she is still willing to come on the front porch.

We had fireworks yesterday evening from downtown (3 miles) that sounded like cannon--or the rich folks several miles away have started their winter anti-blackbird roost campaign. They are on the other side of a lake/bayou. Angel sang at the front door, but wouldn't come in through the dog door, although I did sing back to her and invite her in.

jetsmom
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:39 AM
You know....everyone is entitled to their opinions...but if I recall..ONE person stepped up to help this dog..ONE. Otherwise, this dog would have been taken to the humane society, put in a cage and would have really crumbled.

So let's give VR a little support here, eh? Sure any of those things could happen, but unless someone else here wants to step up and offer the "perfect" home for this dog (perfect meaning, how YOU would do things), let's allow VR a chance to do things HER way and not criticize her method.

Ditto.

Plus, FP, re aggressive- If you read MM's posts, it really doesn't matter who of the 2 dogs was the aggressor. With all that is on her plate with her FIL, etc, and not being able to keep Angel and Cubby separated, due to "forgetful" FIL, one of the dogs needed to be rehomed for the safety of both, and since Angel was the only one that Cubby had been aggressive towards, that made more sense.

I would loved to have seen Angel be in a safe, fenced yard, but since I can't take her, I have no right to insist someone else, willing to take her, have the "perfect" setup. And she does have a collar and tags.

VR- thank you so much for the updates.

FalseImpression
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:47 AM
You know....everyone is entitled to their opinions...but if I recall..ONE person stepped up to help this dog..ONE. Otherwise, this dog would have been taken to the humane society, put in a cage and would have really crumbled.

So let's give VR a little support here, eh? Sure any of those things could happen, but unless someone else here wants to step up and offer the "perfect" home for this dog (perfect meaning, how YOU would do things), let's allow VR a chance to do things HER way and not criticize her method.

I totally agree!

And FP, I know you have lots of experience, BUT you are only what 25 and you are not a vet YET so you still have lots to learn. Your way may be ONE way, not necessarily the RIGHT way for Angel.

As I said before, WHY don't you put the label of aggressive dog on Cubby as well? after all it takes two dogs at least to fight, right? I am optimistic Angel will come around and obviously, so far, she has chosen to stay close to VR.

FatPalomino
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:52 AM
ONE person stepped up to help this dog..ONE. Otherwise, this dog would have been taken to the humane society, put in a cage and would have really crumbled.

That would have been a horrible, completely irresponsible decision. If I remember right, not on MM considered.


So let's give VR a little support here, eh?
I hope you understand- I really hope the best happens for Angel, and completely understand that VR is trying. I wish more people would.


Sure any of those things could happen, but unless someone else here wants to step up and offer the "perfect" home for this dog (perfect meaning, how YOU would do things), let's allow VR a chance to do things HER way and not criticize her method.

I was certainly not insisting- just saying I was cringing as I've seen the HBC and dog fights on ER shifts at the vets. They are not pretty, nor or they rare occurrences.

I have stepped up, many times, (I hope you have, too) and currently have implemented a behavior mod. plan with aggressive dog I recently took in. She's my responsibility now- and I am not here asking anyone to take her. However, if you'd like to, be my guest. She has separation anxiety (will vomit of defecate within minutes of someone leaving), is extremely fearful, and bites men. She's all yours, if you'd like her. She is kept with a current ID tag and chip, is spayed and UTD on vaccines, kept in a fenced enclosure or on a leash, is 'broke' to a basket muzzle and wears it whenever strangers are around, lives on the "NFL" regime, and is making tremendous progress in 2.5 weeks. She's not at all aggressive to other dogs or cats. I'm far from knowing what I'm doing- so I've sought the help of the experts in the field and listened to what they've suggested. If all options are exhausted, she can't live a normal life (NOT one where she is constantly petrified and full of anxiety), she'll be PTS, not surrendered to a shelter or given away to another home to go through even more anxiety-provoking stimuli.

Timex
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:23 AM
just now seeing the latest developments with Miss Angel (ok, so i'm a little out of the loop), and just wanted to say Kudos to Viney!

now, to anyone that is going to nitpick as to how Angel is being kept, remember, you don't know the dog, don't know how she reacts to stimuli, heck, probably wouldn't even be able to pick her out in a crowd. so, let's let viney and Angel figure things out thier own way, ok?

and i must admit, i laughed too at the idea of a feral chihuahua! LOL i know, it's not really funny, but...LOL

trubandloki
Dec. 2, 2009, 11:56 AM
lives on the "NFL" regime,

NFL?

Do you mean Nothing in Life is Free?

MHM
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:14 PM
She was still here this morning, hanging out in the front yard with Hoover and the pit bull adolescent female. All of her food and water was gone, so she is still willing to come on the front porch.



Just a thought- are you sure Angel is the one eating the food, not one of the other dogs?

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:35 PM
She was still here this morning, hanging out in the front yard with Hoover and the pit bull adolescent female. All of her food and water was gone, so she is still willing to come on the front porch.

We had fireworks yesterday evening from downtown (3 miles) that sounded like cannon--or the rich folks several miles away have started their winter anti-blackbird roost campaign. They are on the other side of a lake/bayou. Angel sang at the front door, but wouldn't come in through the dog door, although I did sing back to her and invite her in.

That is good news. Next time she sings to come in, play that voice recording that I sent you via email (hopefully didn't go to your spam junk box - if so let me know), and see if she will respond to that. She used to do that here all the time, she would sing with her head inside the dog door, or just outside of it, I would call her, and then she would come in to get a treat.

In an attempt to put FP's mind at ease, she should go back and read all 80+ pages of the original thread. It will prove that Angel is a very smart dog, is street smart, horse smart, and able to make friends with dogs (like Zack and Spanky) on her own, no help from me or any other human.

Also, I did consider the Humane Society, for all of about 30 minutes, and I knew in my heart I could NOT do that to her.

As to which dog to rehome? Well, Cubby was here first, and is the light of my husband's life, so better that only one of us be totally devastated than the whole family. Is it fair to Angel? No. But it was the best I could do, knowing what my home situation is. Yes, training would have been the best anwer, but again, too difficult here with all that is going on in my home. Sometimes life just isn't fair, and I know that I am the stronger person in this house that always has to make the hard decisions, and I am usually the one that has to make the sacrifices to keep the peace in the house.

We have to keep in mind that Angel has only been at Viney's farm for 3 whole days now. It took 14 MONTHS until we got Angel into my house, and honestly, if it were not for the pup next door, she would probably still be living under my horse trailer, with me worried to death about her being cold, wet, rabies or pregnant.

So, while this may be a step backwards, let's keep positive thoughts on this, and send Angel mental messages that she is a good brave dog, and that she can trust Viney, and that she will have a long safe happy life there. (I have been doing this daily, in hopes that she gets the messages, and while that may sound a bit "out there", it is the best I can do.

FatPalomino
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:40 PM
NFL?

Do you mean Nothing in Life is Free?

No I meant NFL. "No Free Lunch"

I'm glad to hear Angel is street smart, really, I am.

dalpal
Dec. 2, 2009, 12:43 PM
That would have been a horrible, completely irresponsible decision. If I remember right, not on MM considered.


I hope you understand- I really hope the best happens for Angel, and completely understand that VR is trying. I wish more people would.



I was certainly not insisting- just saying I was cringing as I've seen the HBC and dog fights on ER shifts at the vets. They are not pretty, nor or they rare occurrences.

I have stepped up, many times, (I hope you have, too) and currently have implemented a behavior mod. plan with aggressive dog I recently took in. She's my responsibility now- and I am not here asking anyone to take her. However, if you'd like to, be my guest. She has separation anxiety (will vomit of defecate within minutes of someone leaving), is extremely fearful, and bites men. She's all yours, if you'd like her. She is kept with a current ID tag and chip, is spayed and UTD on vaccines, kept in a fenced enclosure or on a leash, is 'broke' to a basket muzzle and wears it whenever strangers are around, lives on the "NFL" regime, and is making tremendous progress in 2.5 weeks. She's not at all aggressive to other dogs or cats. I'm far from knowing what I'm doing- so I've sought the help of the experts in the field and listened to what they've suggested. If all options are exhausted, she can't live a normal life (NOT one where she is constantly petrified and full of anxiety), she'll be PTS, not surrendered to a shelter or given away to another home to go through even more anxiety-provoking stimuli.

Yes FP..I sure have, I've taken in at least 10 fosters into this house in the past three years. Let's just offer support, if VR asks for suggestions fine, but no need to offer everyone's 2 cents just because they've done this or seen this. ;)

vineyridge
Dec. 2, 2009, 01:53 PM
Just so you folks will know, I free feed. In my house I have two feeders with about 45 lbs of dry food between them. There is no reason whatsoever for my dogs to steal Angel's food. Or for the neighbor's dogs to do so either, since they share the feeders.
:)

One thing I will not tolerate is the potential for food fights, and this is the best way to prevent them. It's not perfect, but so far it has worked well for us. I also have to point out that I have no obese dogs either. When free fed, the dogs will control their own input and outgo.

I've just decided to get Angel her own Le Bistro feeder for the porch. :)

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:08 PM
Aww, how sweet. I was going to do that here when she was in the barn, but the ants in Florida are a force unto themselves, and WILL get into food if left out for any length of time. I had that problem way back when I was leaving food out for her in the pasture, either the birds, or the ants would eat it - she learned pretty quickly to come and eat as soon as she saw me put it out there for her. If I saw uneaten food, I would go check, and sure enough, it was swarming with ants every time.

Does she hang around during the daytime, or is she going to hide in her little cave in the brush pile still?

I used to be able to free feed my beagles years back, but with this pack, no, as Murphy and Candy would eat themselves to sickness I'm sure. I think they would adjust, but I'm not willing to take the change right now with the two older dogs being accustomed to eating on a schedule. I think the Aussies would prefer it, as they don't always eat their whole meal in one sitting. Angel was like that too, she would eat some of it, then go back outside, come back an hour or so later looking for more, then go back outside, repeat until the food was gone.

trubandloki
Dec. 2, 2009, 02:20 PM
No I meant NFL. "No Free Lunch"



So we are talking about the same thing you just call it something different? Or is NFL a different program than nothing in life is free?

FatPalomino
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:35 PM
Or is NFL a different program than nothing in life is free?

It's the same thing, as I understand.

Thanks for taking her VR ;) It's really cool your dogs adjusted to self feeding. :D

Tiki
Dec. 2, 2009, 03:50 PM
I free feed too. I'm down from 7 dogs to only 4 now. I put the crunchies down in a line for them and they all get together at one end and work their way down the line with absolutely no fighting, no biting, no whatever. When I used to try to feed before in individual bowls, there was absolute chaos. No, ME first, NO, ME. Put that down here, lady, I'm first. They would charge from bowl to bowl to see if anyone got something better in their bowl. Now I 'sprinkle' it down in a line, they all know it's all the same and they all eat quietly together with NO food fights.

They also self-regulate. If it's cold they eat more and I may have to add a little. If it's hot, they leave some and I put down less for the next meal.

It works great!

Keep up the good work Viney. Don't listen to some of these so-called, self-called, experts!

Equino
Dec. 2, 2009, 05:49 PM
I understand this is a special situation about a special dog. But it is a forum and there are going to be differing of opinions, and hopefully advice for folks who are in a similar situation in the future.

We HAVE fostered dogs before, so it's not as though I have zero experience. However, each dog that has come in was slowly introduced to everything. I liken it with throwing a rescue horse out with a herd. You just never know. I am glad Vinny stepped in and was able to help out, but I hope anyone who finds themselves with a new dog will consider the importance of easing them into a new environment, one with an enclosed yard. And this is for a dog without issues!

May I ask why you free feed? Personally, I wouldn't even free feed my cats. I think you have to have some sense of control, and for me that includes not having the freedom to come and go as pleased (no dog door, doors left open, etc) and no free feeding. That has helped to restore/maintain order in my packs-I'm in charge and they depend on me for certain perks. That and also my dogs and cats would probably eat until they burst! I have talked to behaviorists and other dog trainers about both, and I have never met one who supports either trend.

I'm glad these situations work for you and I really hope Angel comes to trust you. I would hate to hear she ran off or any dog was harmed.

vineyridge
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:08 PM
She seems to be hanging out with the other dogs in the front yard. She isn't hiding anywhere. When I came home this evening from grocery shopping, she followed my truck about half way to the back door, right with the others. I find that encouraging. I think it shows that she wants to be part of the pack and also be as near me as she can tolerate right now.

It's been raining off and on all day, but tomorrow is supposed to be lovely.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 2, 2009, 07:24 PM
That is very, very encouraging news! Sounds like your dogs are working their canine magic and helping her to feel at home, give them all a good scratch and hug for me please.

P.S., we are in a tornado watch right now, all that rain from out your way is here now.

FatPalomino
Dec. 2, 2009, 08:01 PM
On an interesting related note, in the most recent Equus, they told the tale of a study of free feeding horses. They didn't die from it. They did maintain a BCS of 7.5-8, and the authors concluded they needed to more exercise to maintain proper BCS.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't even free feed cats ;)

Casey09
Dec. 2, 2009, 10:29 PM
FatPalomino,
This is an honest question - and perhaps it doesn't belong here - but what do you think makes a dog "dog aggressive"? I have always found it a very difficult term to define. Obviously, in some cases a dog really wants to kill every other dog it sees. There are some clear-cut cases, but it is a difficult term for me to define.
Frankly, I think that it is kind of a continuum, and most dogs have some dog aggression or the potential for it - which is why I avoid dog parks where you throw a bunch of dogs together that do not know each other. That's just me, though, and I am admittedly high-strung at times.
Hoping the best for Angel. I have had no experience with this type of dog, so I have no good advice. Hopefully, she'll come around.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:44 AM
I think there are various factors that can cause a dog to behave aggressively, so it would require a behaviorist to determine what triggers a dog to attack.

For example, our Rhody/Boxer cross, has been known to nip at some people that come to visit, usually if she senses that they are nervous around her. And she acts more aggressive when the person leaves the house, it is very strange. Yet this same dog has never bitten any other dog, she barks at them, and gets excited in a playful way.

My normally passive brittany has killed her fair share of wildlife (rabbits, squirels, moles), but that is the extent of her aggression.

I'm pretty confident that Angel will overcome her fears in her new home, she is the type of dog that it must be on her terms. I'm looking foward to cheering on her new baby steps at Viney's place now.

In thinking back to the day of the dog fight, it amazes me that she did not attempt to bite me, even as I was pulling her away from Cubby, and had her pinned to the ground. She could have just as easily latched onto my arm if she were truely aggressive. For whatever reason, she and Cubby just did not get along. Even when they did play together, it was more serious than when she played with Jenna.

trubandloki
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:50 AM
There are some clear-cut cases, but it is a difficult term for me to define.
Frankly, I think that it is kind of a continuum, and most dogs have some dog aggression or the potential for it -

I agree.

I always find it amusing that people are so upset that Fido does not like every dog he meets but they find nothing wrong with them hating their neighbor.

My dogs do not always get along but I would not label any of them dog aggressive. Far from it actually.

FatPalomino
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:35 AM
FatPalomino,
This is an honest question - and perhaps it doesn't belong here - but what do you think makes a dog "dog aggressive"?


Good question. Because Angel was in one full fledged dog fight, and afterwards the dogs continued to want to fight, I'd call her inter-dog aggressive.

Define inter-dog aggression: Aggression towards other dogs
I'd call any dog who has bitten, snapped, nipped, or tried to, (towards people OR other dogs) and aggressive dog. Sometimes the dog will learn that one small snap is enough to get the job done, but too often the behavior escalates (say, when the 'honeymoon' period after adoption is over, when the stimuli continues to increase, etc).

Here's someone else's definition:
his is generally social in context and will occur between dogs within the same house, not hormone driven, although it generally starts at social maturity (18 to 24 months). The dog is challenged by a stare or a bump or body block, and then each dog behaves in reaction to what the other dog did. Strange dogs meeting -- even with two dogs fighting -- generally are responding to protective aggression (and the classic leash aggression in some cases). A characteristic of interdog aggression is that aggressive intention is not displayed to other animals. The dog may live amicably with cats and horses.
http://workingdogs.com/doc0182.htm


Possible causes:
Territorial
Fear
Predatory
Learned
Guarding
The list goes on and on

One thing I got really caught up on was 'labeling' or having to find out the route of the problem. I learned that's not so important, as they are all treated the same way. Behavior modification in the form of classical conditioning, positive reinforcement, desensitization, counter-conditioning, increase play, rule out medical ailments, etc.

Interdog aggression and aggression towards people is usually 2 separate problems in behavior medicine (I think there are very few dogs alive today that have both, for obvious reasons).

Some people are ok with the liability/risk/anxiety of dogs that bite, like how MM described. The dog I took in only nips- but even nipping is enough to start a lawsuit and get the dog dragged off to dog jail/death. So, I err on the side of caution, for both my sake and for the dog's. I don't put a basket muzzle on her just to make her look like Hannibel Lector, it's so that she doesn't get seized and eventually destroyed.

Gotta run...

trubandloki
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:48 AM
I'd call any dog who has bitten, snapped, nipped, or tried to, (towards people OR other dogs) and aggressive dog.

So, in your world dogs are not allowed to tell other dogs that they do not approve of what they are doing?

It is not OK for a dog to snarl at another dog when that dog hurts it by playing too rough?

clm08
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:57 AM
This thread has got me thinking about my 2 dogs who can and have acted aggressively with each other...

Some background: I used to have 3 mini poodles, all related to each other. The two older ones passed away last year and this year, at the ripe age of 17 and 16. The youngest one of the 3 was always the bossy one (I don't want to call dominant because she would defer to the oldest, but still act as she was in charge). She is now 13.

Last year I adopted a rescue mini poodle puppy (about 8 months old then) who was found as a stray. He has some very different behavior than my other poodles, was very shy towards people, still takes awhile to warm up to strangers, but is very attached to me now. He defers to my oldest one. But once in a while they will get into a terrible fight, usually over a toy or treat, but I have seen this happening when my younger one is trying to jump up in bed with me and the oldest one is already there and doesn't want him to come up. We always end up running to separate them because it sounds like they are killing each other! This has occurred at least half a dozen times that I have seen (in 13 months), but amazingly enough they never hurt each other. I always thought it was because we get to them quickly enough before any damage is done, but by reading some of the posts here I think they are not really trying to hurt each other. Is it some ritualized aggressive behavior dogs have evolved with that helps them ascertain their social position without endangering them? I think we may actually cause some of the bite wounds/tears by pulling them away at a moment they have their teeth out and are grabbing the other dog.

My dogs have the run of the house while I am at work during the day, and I just don't know if they ever get into their fights while no one is home. But I've never seen any signs of fights at the end of the day - they both seem happy to see the human family come back, and are happy with each other.

By FP's definition my dogs are aggressive, but I take them to the dog park almost every day and don't fear for theirs or any other dog's safety. The oldest one does not want to play with bigger dogs, she snarls at them, will snap too if the dog doesn't get the first warning, but usually it ends there. She doesn't mind the smaller dogs. Am I being an irresponsible dog owner? I don't think so, but I guess other may have a different opionion...

Tiki
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:07 AM
Sorry, but I just don't see how Angel's defending herself against Cubby attacking her makes her an agressive dog. :no:

sdlbredfan
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:11 AM
Sorry, but I just don't see how Angel's defending herself against Cubby attacking her makes her an agressive dog. :no:

I agree, however, all that is water under the bridge. I am confident that Angel has arrived at just the place she is supposed to be.

bambam
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:12 AM
By FP's definition my dogs are aggressive
By FP's definition, I have never met a dog that was not dog agressive. What dog has never even snapped at another dog in response to something even if it was only as part of play?

Kudos to Viney for stepping up to the plate and please keep the updates coming
I have not posted on these threads before but I have been reading them :)

FalseImpression
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:14 AM
I guess because when MM caught her, she still managed to get loose and did go back to fight some more.
And because the two dogs kept giving each other "the eye" in the following days.

As I said before, if you are going to call one of the fighters an aggressive dog, then you have to call the other one the same.

I guess I would be labeled aggressive too. I don't bite, but I can snarl... grrr

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:27 AM
Maybe I am an optimist, but I am hoping that Angel and Cubby just did not get along, for whatever reason, sibling rivalry, end of the honeymoon. . . and that it never happens again.

Because we know of Candy's tendencies to nip, we do control her at all times to prevent it from happening. Last time she did it, the person ignored the beware of dog sign, opened the front gate and came in alone. DUH!

trubandloki
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:27 AM
By FP's definition, I have never met a dog that was not dog agressive. What dog has never even snapped at another dog in response to something even if it was only as part of play?



I agree. I do not think there are any dogs that using FP's description would not be considered aggressive.




Kudos to Viney for stepping up to the plate and please keep the updates coming


Yes, more updates.

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:40 AM
On an interesting related note, in the most recent Equus, they told the tale of a study of free feeding horses. They didn't die from it. They did maintain a BCS of 7.5-8, and the authors concluded they needed to more exercise to maintain proper BCS.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't even free feed cats ;)

Gasp, oh the horrors....I have been free feeding my cats for about 12 years now...neither has a weight issue. This is one of my biggest issues with folks in veterinarian care.....most believe there is only one way to take care of animal/and are closed minded to others experiences, knowledage. You've read one magazine study about free feeding horses and now it applies to everything.

I don't free feed my dogs, because i have two that wouldn't do well, I don't free feed my horses, but yes, I do free feed my cats. What do you folks think people do when they leave their cats home for a weekend????? They put enough food, water and litter down and leave.

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:45 AM
She seems to be hanging out with the other dogs in the front yard. She isn't hiding anywhere. When I came home this evening from grocery shopping, she followed my truck about half way to the back door, right with the others. I find that encouraging. I think it shows that she wants to be part of the pack and also be as near me as she can tolerate right now.

It's been raining off and on all day, but tomorrow is supposed to be lovely.


VR..I think you are doing an excellent job with this dog. I think allowing her to become confident with her dog mates will help bring her around to people. I know some people on this board despise Ceaser Milian, but this tactic has always seemed to help fearful dogs on his show.

Tiki
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:48 AM
What do you think wild animals do in the wild? Ah, well, I guess you could call it free feeding, or .......... catch it when you can :D

I have a friend who never feeds round bales of hay. She tried it once and 'the d@mn horses ate it all. Well, when you first give them a round bale they tend to eat a lot - - - - - IF you haven't been giving them enough to eat, duh! Once they get used to it, they eat when they need to and run around and play or doze the rest of the time. Same thing for horses on 24/7 pasture. People say, 'Oh, don't turn them out free on pasture, they're eat 'til they explode or colic'. Yeah, maybe if they've never been allowed on pasture. Mine are out 24/7 and they doze and graze, walk and graze, walk and doze - and they're much healthier for it.

lcw579
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:57 AM
I free feed my cats, my dogs and my children ;) and none of them are overweight.

Viney, I think you are doing a great job with Angel. Love all the updates.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:04 PM
VR..I think you are doing an excellent job with this dog. I think allowing her to become confident with her dog mates will help bring her around to people. I know some people on this board despise Ceaser Milian, but this tactic has always seemed to help fearful dogs on his show.

It worked when we first had Angel in the house, she would see us interacting with the other dogs, getting patted and scratched and hugged, and fed treats, and I think she figured out that if the other dogs were not afraid, that she didn't need to be either, and within a short time, she was right there with them, asking for attention. So, I think as Angel watches Viney interact with her other dogs, that she will figure it out.

Equino
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:17 PM
What do you folks think people do when they leave their cats home for a weekend????? They put enough food, water and litter down and leave.

We hire cat sitters. Maybe free feeding works for some. Definitely would not work in my house. To each their own.


I know some people on this board despise Ceaser Milian, but this tactic has always seemed to help fearful dogs on his show.
I'm not a fan of Milian and rarely watch his show. I did work for a woman with 6 untrained dogs. She and her husband worked out of their home and there were always people coming and going. Their house was completely fenced in-with electric fencing to keep dogs off the driveway and walkway- and they had a doggie door. It was CHAOTIC in that house, and they would buy a puppy, rehome a dog that didn't "work" and buy another puppy, rehome, etc. I tried to help by suggesting trainers but they didn't want to train, they wanted the dogs to go off and be trained and come home perfect. So they hired some woman who trained under Milian, some 5 states away for $25,000/month who they flew the dogs to. The 1st thing she did say was the dogs had way too much freedom and to take away the dog door and the free feeding. She was appalled how they were living, as if they ruled the house and no one had limits. They had to implement crate training and the dogs would also eat in their crates as well as be crated when no one was home. These dogs were not typically aggressive dogs, or aggressive dog breeds, but they would have their fights and would go nuts when people came to the house. While things are far from ideal, there is definitely more order in the house and the dogs are more pleasant to be around.

Anyway, I know there isn't only one way to do things. I think you have to figure out what works best for you and your animals. I also do believe it helps to work with a behaviorist who really does understand pack behavior, so I try to read and attend clinics and just ask lots of questions. Then I try to apply what works for me and my animals.

bambam
Dec. 3, 2009, 12:46 PM
There are lots of ways to establish limits for your dogs and that you are alpha dog that have nothing to do with feeding and having a doggie door.
Free feeding works for some dogs. It does not work for others. * shrug * I don't see the logic in or basis for condemning the practice wholesale.
Free feeding would not have worked for the family dog when I was a kid- she never ever finished a meal in 1 or even 2 sittings, just not in her nature (I think it is a Husky thing as all the Huskies I know are like that). I mean maybe if we pulled her food every time she did not finish it so she became hungry enough to eat it all, she would have but why do that to her?

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming of Angel :)

vineyridge
Dec. 3, 2009, 02:43 PM
Angel is still here. When I went out this morning, she was hanging out with Hoover and Lucy. Lucy is the neighbor's pit. Pearl, my senior dog, went over to sniff the appropriate parts, and she didn't move. She wasn't asked to belly up, so she just stood there, letting Pearl do the sniffing. Tail was down, and so was her head. But she didn't flee, and she didn't turn on Pearl.

She didn't eat much last night. But she did eat. And she drank.

So all is going as well as can be expected for now. It's a really lovely day, with sun, and chilly. Most of the dogs are out with each other doing dog things.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 04:57 PM
Big Sigh Of Relief. That is good news, that she is still hanging around. Don't worry about the amount of food she eats, she has always been funny like that, some days she eats everything in sight, other days, not so much.

There is a part of me that wonders what she would do if you and I were on the cell phones, and you put it on speaker mode, and I was to call her? Would that be mean? For her to hear my voice, but I was not there? I guess we could save that option for another time, or if you really needed to get her into the house I guess. I just don't know.

I'ms sure you are doing all the right things.

FYI - my house dogs sort of still look for her, and Murphy now lays on the front steps where Angel used to lay, I think Murphy misses her the most. The pomeranian went home yesterday, so we are back to 4 dogs, and all is quiet here.

Thomas_1
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:13 PM
Why is the dog just being allowed to roam?

egontoast
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:31 PM
There is a part of me that wonders what she would do if you and I were on the cell phones, and you put it on speaker mode, and I was to call her? Would that be mean? For her to hear my voice, but I was not there? I guess we could save that option for another time, or if you really needed to get her into the house I guess. I just don't know

This degree of attachment sounds unhealthy for you. Maybe you need to let go now that you have made the decision to rehome the dog.

sdlbredfan
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:34 PM
Why is the dog just being allowed to roam?

I hope Viney will clarify, but I think the reason this is being done is because of Angel's high level of fear. She apparently feels more secure knowing that she is the one who decides how close to be to other dogs or humans. I seem to recall MM mentioning this before. It makes sense to me anyway,

mp
Dec. 3, 2009, 05:54 PM
There is a part of me that wonders what she would do if you and I were on the cell phones, and you put it on speaker mode, and I was to call her?

Let me put that part of you at ease: The dog will have no idea it's you. But if she's nearby, she will be perplexed or even totally spooked by the sound coming out of the little box.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:44 PM
Thanks, I thought perhaps it was a bad idea, so scratch it.

egontoast, it has nothing to do with attachment, I was just offering suggestions to Viney in case she wanted my help.

Thomas_1, letting her roam this early was not the plan, it just happened. And yes, Angel is much more secure if she sets the contact to match her comfort level. And now that she is loose, there will be no catching her until she decides to make the first contact. She truely is a dog like no other dog I have ever owned or met.

FatPalomino
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:54 PM
So, in your world dogs are not allowed to tell other dogs that they do not approve of what they are doing?

LOL. You don't want to come to my world. 22 feral cats just lost their reproductive organs in my world this morning!

Someone asked the definition. Don't take my word on it.
Here is the definition of aggression from The Handbook of Behavior Problems of the Dog and Cat (Landsberg, et al) Page 386:
"Aggression refers to threatening or harmful behavior directed towards another individual or group."

Are you guys telling me that you don't see pyloerection, lunging, growling, snarling, snapping, and biting as aggression? Heck, I think there's a heck of aggressive tones on this thread! If you want to see a truly non-aggressive dog, check out the ones that have gone through the SAFER screening, for example, all dogs adopted by our local humane society.

I'm glad Angel is still around. I hope nothing changes after her honeymoon period is over. I cross my fingers she won't ever wind up like the HBC's I used to see every Friday night.

MM- I assumed you spayed Angel, right? How did she do through that? Our fearful pup actually did remarkably well, the drugs did their job, but I have to admit, I was worried if her fear/anxiety would get worse afterwards.

Also, I've yet to see a dog that recognized voices through a phone or computer speakers (I have tried on video conferences!)

What was the plan for Angel? She's a fearful dog that spent most of her life as a stray and is in a house with a dog door that leads to an unfenced yard, correct? How was she supposed to be contained?

I still would love to see a photo of Angel :)

AnotherRound
Dec. 3, 2009, 06:56 PM
I hope Viney will clarify, but I think the reason this is being done is because of Angel's high level of fear. She apparently feels more secure knowing that she is the one who decides how close to be to other dogs or humans. I seem to recall MM mentioning this before. It makes sense to me anyway,

This dog doesn't feel any security whatsoever. That's why she's wandering and hasn't bonded with anyone. The OP and the person prior to the OP have no boundries. That's whats the problem is, the would-be-owner, SHE has no boundaries, so she isn't giving any security to the dog - or letting the the neighborhood dogs know of her boundaries - any boundries. Dogs HAVE to have boundries to know what the structure of their world is. If YOU don't give a dog boundries, AND ENFORCE THEM they think they are alpha over you, and that's that. Or at the minimum, they just don't regard you as anything, which this dog is doing. The OP is nothing to this dog. Without boundaries, the dog will act out, or wander, or snap, or kill a chicken or another peron's pet or your pet and you can't stop it. All the dogs will get a pack mentality against you and you can't stop it. How are you going to influence a dog which doesn't regard you? How do you think a dog is going to feel safe with you when you don't create boundries for it to keep unwanted other animals out, at the very least? That dog will never see the OP as a protector, or feel safe in the OP's property. That dog will never be able to sleep there, not knowing if neighborhood dogs have access to it and the OP's residence. The op has no personal boundaries and is not erecting dog boundaries. The reason the dog wanders is because it has not been given boundaries. Whether the OP can touch the dog or not isn't crucial. The OP can quickly establish borders in the yard and be the aggressor against other dogs which will keep the poor thing safe. It needs to be in the house (the cave) at night, and in its cage where it can sleep knowing it will be safe. It should never be allowed out of the house until it has bonded with the OP, and is taking direction, and looking to the OP for direction, permission to eat, when to sleep, attention, a safe corner should be provided by the OP. These are basics for good dog husbandry, and the OP and her cohorts are wildly inept at keeping the dog safe. The OP allows the neighborhood dogs INTO HER HOUSE, for pity's sake!!! I wouldn't go into the house, if I were this dog. I wouldn't feel safe, or as though it were my private cave, my home, the way the OP lets other dogs run all over her (from the dog's point of view. And mine.) This dog is going to be hit by a car, attacked by other dogs, coyotes, or just plain wander off - because it doesn't perceive her as "home" and its the OPs fault.

As for the old owner thinking she's going to influence the dog with her voice on a cell phone - get a grip!! Dogs have no idea about voices, or what we say, or noises comoing out of the air. They respond to in person body language, and a personal relation ship with another being, dog or human. If they can pigeon hole you into a role they understand, alpha, male, female, subservient, puppy, enemy pack, lone dog looking to steal food, whatever, they will interact with you that way. That's all. Nobody is doing the dog a service by allowing it to live a disenfranchised life from a pack - you aren't giving it YOUR pack/family to bond with, and you aren't keeping dogs which Aren't a part of the pack away from it. That dog is about as insecure as a dog can be - and his behaviour is a testament to it.

Do the dog a favor and get it some real help, and some protection from you and your property and your neighborhood.

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:10 PM
Big Sigh Of Relief. That is good news, that she is still hanging around. Don't worry about the amount of food she eats, she has always been funny like that, some days she eats everything in sight, other days, not so much.

There is a part of me that wonders what she would do if you and I were on the cell phones, and you put it on speaker mode, and I was to call her? Would that be mean? For her to hear my voice, but I was not there? I guess we could save that option for another time, or if you really needed to get her into the house I guess. I just don't know.

I'ms sure you are doing all the right things.

FYI - my house dogs sort of still look for her, and Murphy now lays on the front steps where Angel used to lay, I think Murphy misses her the most. The pomeranian went home yesterday, so we are back to 4 dogs, and all is quiet here.

I wouldn't call and talk to her over the phone....she needs to bond with VR.

I had a behavorist tell me once that some dogs are a "throw back" to their ancestors...they'll skip a day here and there with meals...I have one that will do this. I could free feed her if she were the only dog.

egontoast
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:12 PM
egontoast, it has nothing to do with attachment, I was just offering suggestions to Viney in case she wanted my help.


don't think so based on previous posts. For example


Next time she sings to come in, play that voice recording that I sent you via email (hopefully didn't go to your spam junk box - if so let me know), and see if she will respond to that.


Time to let go for your own sake.

AnotherRound
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:17 PM
I agree 100%.

AnotherRound
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:19 PM
I wouldn't call and talk to her over the phone....she needs to bond with VR.

I had a behavorist tell me once that some dogs are a "throw back" to their ancestors...they'll skip a day here and there with meals...I have one that will do this. I could free feed her if she were the only dog.

This is true. "in the wild" dogs/wolves will gorge and then not eat again for days, sometimes weeks. It doesn't do to force them out of this into some schedule created by humans. If a dog doesn't eat for several days, it means nothing.

Equino
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:19 PM
Also, I've yet to see a dog that recognized voices through a phone or computer speakers (I have tried on video conferences!)

I SWEAR this is a true story...I have an Aussie who I got at a bad time. My boss suddenly decided to move, and I moved with her, living in her house while my place was being built on the farm, and the entire place was under complete construction, trucks coming and going, people everywhere, so I had to keep him crated whenever I could not watch him. He was barely four months old. He became quite frighten whenever people would just pop in the house and being in the crate, couldn't "defend" his territory. One evening my boss' son was visiting from college and the puppy was loose. He was scared to death and never got over it. Every time the kid would come, he would run, hide and growl. Eventually, he'd warm up and be comfortable, but the initial reaction was always the same. Well, one day the kid called my house and left a message. When we played it back, my dog started growling and backing away from the answering machine, something he never did before, and has not since. Hmmm....


There are lots of ways to establish limits for your dogs and that you are alpha dog that have nothing to do with feeding and having a doggie door.
Free feeding works for some dogs. It does not work for others. * shrug * I don't see the logic in or basis for condemning the practice wholesale.
The reason people are opposed to free feeding or dog doors is it gives the dog too much freedom. I cannot stand when my dogs leap and cry at the dogs to go out when I put my shoes on. I have had to retrain them to sit and wait until I give the release command. That establishes me as leader and we all walk out quietly, calmly. If I had a dog door and they came and go as they please, that takes away a bit of control. That's my point, and the point those who are anti-dog door make. As for free feeding, it's along the same lines. When I train my dogs, I use food as a reward since most dogs are HUGELY motivated by food. To allow them to have food whenever they please gives them that extra freedom. I recall one clinician saying a dog should have "unbridled passion for food" and a dog without that passion, "leads to an unhappy dog." They need to look forward to their next meal with anticipation and excitement. This "creates the foundation for a well-tempered, happy pet." It's also better for their digestive system as they are not grazing animals like a horse.

I'm not telling you how to feed your animals. Just sharing my opinion and what I have learned. This works for me and I have a FAT dog that I just started on Low Cal food this week!

kdow
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:20 PM
According to FP's definition of aggressive dogs, an extremely well-respected dog behaviorist (Patricia McConnell) has an aggressive dog... that she's used quite successfully for many years to help teach seriously aggressive dogs how to interact with other dogs without any problems. But this dog growled at a puppy who was misbehaving, so- aggressive! (This was after the dog used body language cues as a first attempt to communicate 'stop that' to the puppy. The puppy persisted, the dog added a short growl/snarl to say 'I mean it' and the puppy stopped.)

If we deny dogs the ability to communicate 'do not want' to us in ANY way (because they're all forms of aggression) then how on earth are we supposed to know how the dog is feeling? It's the rare dog indeed who is happy and content and not in pain every second of every day.

Also, I find the idea that dogs have no idea about voices at all very strange. Yes, I have yet to see a dog that understands telephones/recordings, but they're not deaf! Even if you assume dogs can't understand the meaning of actual words (and scientists have found some dogs who very clearly have some type of vocabulary - there are articles and research studies about it) they most certainly can understand differences in tone of voice and speech pattern and derive information from that. (Obviously, you can train a dog to ignore differences in tone or to respond just to body language, but that doesn't mean they're not taking IN the other information - they just know not to act on it, because that's what you've taught them. Likewise, some dogs are probably more sensitive to things than others, just like there's a range in people.)

AnotherRound
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:23 PM
I SWEAR this is a true story...I have an Aussie who I got at a bad time. My boss suddenly decided to move, and I moved with her, living in her house while my place was being built on the farm, and the entire place was under complete construction, trucks coming and going, people everywhere, so I had to keep him crated whenever I could not watch him. He was barely four months old. He became quite frighten whenever people would just pop in the house and being in the crate, couldn't "defend" his territory. One evening my boss' son was visiting from college and the puppy was loose. He was scared to death and never got over it. Every time the kid would come, he would run, hide and growl. Eventually, he'd warm up and be comfortable, but the initial reaction was always the same. Well, one day the kid called my house and left a message. When we played it back, my dog started growling and backing away from the answering machine, something he never did before, and has not since. Hmmm....

That was a dog bonded and reliant on you, and looked to you, its pack for protection. At this point, this dog sees none of that in this OP - or its former owner - and has no regard for them. Voice may mean something to a bonded animal, wolves give voice over long distances to connect with their pack, but this dog isn't bonded with anyone, and needs to bond with the OP - not the former owner, if it ever did. Voices in the air to this dog are entirely inappropriate and are a self serving emotional pat on the back to the people involved. The dog needs protection and structure and boundries, not voices out of the blue.

MHM
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:25 PM
There is a part of me that wonders what she would do if you and I were on the cell phones, and you put it on speaker mode, and I was to call her? Would that be mean? For her to hear my voice, but I was not there?

I tried this once. My dog was staying with my mother while I was out of town. While I was on the phone with my mother, she held the phone to my dog's ear so I could say hello to her.

My mother said the dog perked up at the sound of my voice, then waited near the door for the next hour, thinking that I must be nearby, since she heard my voice.

I felt terrible about getting her hopes up and then disappointing her, and I've never done that again. :lol:

Hoping for more good news about Angel.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:29 PM
MM- I assumed you spayed Angel, right? How did she do through that? Our fearful pup actually did remarkably well, the drugs did their job, but I have to admit, I was worried if her fear/anxiety would get worse afterwards.

Also, I've yet to see a dog that recognized voices through a phone or computer speakers (I have tried on video conferences!)

What was the plan for Angel? She's a fearful dog that spent most of her life as a stray and is in a house with a dog door that leads to an unfenced yard, correct? How was she supposed to be contained?

I still would love to see a photo of Angel :)

Yes, Angel was spayed. I posted links to pictures of her on the other two threads. She was timid and depressed for the whole 3 days after spaying as she stayed in a kennel at the vets office. When she came home, she was confined to my house and front yard (all of this is in the original Stray Dog saga thread).

I will recap the 80+ pages that spanned almost a year on her history. This way you can see that she has lived most of her life with no boundaries, other than those of her own making.

May 2008, dog is dumped in my neighborhood with another dog. Guestamate that she was around 4 months old. No one can get near either dog.

June 2008 - AC traps the older larger dog. Trap malfunction on the second trap fails to catch Angel. AC keeps baiting the trap daily for 3 months. Also amazing that they didn't catch any wildlife during that time. Angel outsmarts the trap, manages to eat the food without triggering the trap.

August 2008 - neighbor begins feeding Angel in their big 10 acre pasture behind my pasture. Angel begins to hang out with my horses, and play with my youngest gelding. Roams all the farms in the neighborhood. AC attempts to use a tranquilizer gun to catch her and fails (she outsmarted them).

October 2008, on a whim I put out some horse feed (dealer said dogs love it) for Angel, and she eats it, and runs off with the dish. Brings the dish back for more the next day. That was when I started feeding her.

Oct 2008 - April 2009. I feed Angel every day, and toss her treats several times a day, in an attempt to make friends with her. Also during that time, 5 failed attempts to orally tranquilize and catch her (with meds from the vet).

April 2009 Angel eats from my hand (prime rib) and makes progress in reducing her buffer between herself and me. Sleeps under the horse trailer, or hides at the vacant farm next door during thunderstorms. Still cannot touch her. Told the neighbors to stop feeding her as it would be best for her to have one source of food.

April - July 2009. Buffer gets smaller, will come when called, hang out with me and the horses at the barn. Very few attempts to meet the house dogs in the front yard through the fence. Still cannot touch her. One other failed tranq attempt.

July 2009 - Angel makes friends with the neighbors pup, who we used as bait to trap her in their barn. Vet comes to tranq Angel. This was the first time that she was petted. She didn't know what to make of it, and was very timid, subdued, no signs of aggression. Vet and technician state that they did not think she had a mean bone in her body but was very frightened.

July 2009 - Nov 2009 - Angel becomes a house dog with boundaries, which she was slowly accepting. We were not sure she would be happy living in the house, and were willing to let her go back to being and outdoor/farm dog if necessary, as she had now been spayed and had her rabies shots, even the vet was not sure if she would adapt to domestic life, so she did surprise all of us at how well she was doing.

And you all know the rest of the story how she is now living with Viney because Angel and Cubby did not get along, and Viney was a saint to offer to take her in and at bare minimum allow her to be a farm/outdoor dog if that is what Angel wanted.

Even as much as Angel trusted me, I don't think she thought of me as her protector, there were times when she would come in the house, I would call her, and she would turn around and head right back out the door. She is NOT your typical dog.

She has the option of going inside Viney's house for safety if she chooses. Even when she was here, she chose to spend most of her time outside, only coming in when I called her for bedtime, or when it was raining, and even then, not always, sometimes she would lay on the stoop and watch it rain.

I'm personally sorry that this thread is turning into a disagreement on dog training/raising, etc. To each their own. After you have spent 14 months trying to befriend a practically feral dog that is deathly afraid of humans, probably induced by abuse by whoever dumped her out here in the first place, you tell me how to "force" a dog to look to a human for security. Angel has a great survival instinct all her own, and she was not looking for a savior, she was looking for friends, and yes a place to belong, but on her terms.

I know that the many folks here on the BB that were so helpful to me all last year with suggestions and encouragement were hoping to hear positive things about her for the remainder of her days, well sometimes life thows you a curveball, and they don't all have happy endings.

AnotherRound
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:31 PM
No dog in my house is EVER allowed to growl or give voice to agression over any other animal, when it first comes in. NO adult dog in my house would be allowed to growl and snap at a puppy - nor would a puppy be allowed to push the boundaries of the adult dog. The adult dog MUST tolerate puppy behaviour, but I as the alpha, am the one to say "stop" to the puppy. If I don't, the the adult dog HAS to stop the puppy himself, and I have become a sideline viewer. I tell the puppy to stop. I tell the cat not to chase the dog and bloody its nose, I am the one to tell the dog "back off" when a child toys with it and I am the one to tell the child to back off and not toy with the dog.

If a dog is allowed to chastise a puppy, he will do so to a young child or baby and that's a dog which can't be alone in the presence of children, and can't be socialized and live with a family.

It just doesn't work like you all are imagining. This is what creates neuroitc dogs which chase cars, bark incessantly when you ride [past their house on a horse, and jump on visitors and snap at a child's fingers one day.

This dog in particular is predisposed to injure a person evenutally without boundaries from its handler.

You can create nice scenarios all you like, that's you, the human, imagining, not the dog living a difficult but useful and safe life with humans.

AnotherRound
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:36 PM
The dog doesn't WANT options. It wants safety, and it doesn't have it from you folks. Sorry if that's harsh, but its not all butterflies and rainbows and pats on the back for what you've done. You've done the dog a disservice, and haven't given it what it needs. It doesn't need to dictate its own terms. It needs to come to terms with human's world and will, otherwise, its a feral dog and will have to be shot before its instincts and personal terms kill another pet or hurt a person.

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:44 PM
According to FP's definition of aggressive dogs, an extremely well-respected dog behaviorist (Patricia McConnell) has an aggressive dog... that she's used quite successfully for many years to help teach seriously aggressive dogs how to interact with other dogs without any problems. But this dog growled at a puppy who was misbehaving, so- aggressive! (This was after the dog used body language cues as a first attempt to communicate 'stop that' to the puppy. The puppy persisted, the dog added a short growl/snarl to say 'I mean it' and the puppy stopped.)

If we deny dogs the ability to communicate 'do not want' to us in ANY way (because they're all forms of aggression) then how on earth are we supposed to know how the dog is feeling? It's the rare dog indeed who is happy and content and not in pain every second of every day.

Also, I find the idea that dogs have no idea about voices at all very strange. Yes, I have yet to see a dog that understands telephones/recordings, but they're not deaf! Even if you assume dogs can't understand the meaning of actual words (and scientists have found some dogs who very clearly have some type of vocabulary - there are articles and research studies about it) they most certainly can understand differences in tone of voice and speech pattern and derive information from that. (Obviously, you can train a dog to ignore differences in tone or to respond just to body language, but that doesn't mean they're not taking IN the other information - they just know not to act on it, because that's what you've taught them. Likewise, some dogs are probably more sensitive to things than others, just like there's a range in people.)


True..and what about the mother dogs who often snap at their young for misbehaving....are they agressive dogs too???

For the record I own a dog who came to me as a fear aggressive puppy....I spent ALOT of time with this young fellow building up his confidence.....Took him to MANY classes in his first three years...including puppy class, CGC class (he has his CGC), three agility classes, a motivation and drive class, distraction proofing, and tracking. Was very fortuante to have TWO wonderful, certified behavorists who taught those classes...one used to train police dogs.....I learned alot from those two people.

Between myself and my wonderful outgoing Golden mix, we have made him a social boy. The breeder only sold him to me because she knew that he would get the time and help that he needed to become a confident dog.

So I do not think every dog with shy, fearful tendencies are doomed for failure, should be euthanized...No, I do not. However, they absolutley do not belong in the average joe home that just wants a dog to be in the house...these dogs have to be in homes where people are willing to really work with the dog.

I had a terrified foster come in....although an omega personality....but she was scared of her own shadow, paced, scared of everyone. Now three years later, she loves to ride in the car, go to the park, lay with me on the couch. Just took time, understanding and patience.

They can be rehabbed, it just takes a person who is willing to do it.

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:47 PM
No dog in my house is EVER allowed to growl or give voice to agression over any other animal, when it first comes in. NO adult dog in my house would be allowed to growl and snap at a puppy - nor would a puppy be allowed to push the boundaries of the adult dog. The adult dog MUST tolerate puppy behaviour, but I as the alpha, am the one to say "stop" to the puppy. If I don't, the the adult dog HAS to stop the puppy himself, and I have become a sideline viewer. I tell the puppy to stop. I tell the cat not to chase the dog and bloody its nose, I am the one to tell the dog "back off" when a child toys with it and I am the one to tell the child to back off and not toy with the dog.

If a dog is allowed to chastise a puppy, he will do so to a young child or baby and that's a dog which can't be alone in the presence of children, and can't be socialized and live with a family.

It just doesn't work like you all are imagining. This is what creates neuroitc dogs which chase cars, bark incessantly when you ride [past their house on a horse, and jump on visitors and snap at a child's fingers one day.

This dog in particular is predisposed to injure a person evenutally without boundaries from its handler.

You can create nice scenarios all you like, that's you, the human, imagining, not the dog living a difficult but useful and safe life with humans.


I hate to tell you this...but one of the behavorists who worked with us (the police dog trainer) once told me NEVER TAKE THE GROWL OUT OF A DOG....that is a warning system...if a dog is taught not to growl, then you will have an unpredictable dog on your hands.

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:52 PM
Yes, Angel was spayed. I posted links to pictures of her on the other two threads. She was timid and depressed for the whole 3 days after spaying as she stayed in a kennel at the vets office. When she came home, she was confined to my house and front yard (all of this is in the original Stray Dog saga thread).

I will recap the 80+ pages that spanned almost a year on her history. This way you can see that she has lived most of her life with no boundaries, other than those of her own making.

May 2008, dog is dumped in my neighborhood with another dog. Guestamate that she was around 4 months old. No one can get near either dog.

June 2008 - AC traps the older larger dog. Trap malfunction on the second trap fails to catch Angel. AC keeps baiting the trap daily for 3 months. Also amazing that they didn't catch any wildlife during that time. Angel outsmarts the trap, manages to eat the food without triggering the trap.

August 2008 - neighbor begins feeding Angel in their big 10 acre pasture behind my pasture. Angel begins to hang out with my horses, and play with my youngest gelding. Roams all the farms in the neighborhood. AC attempts to use a tranquilizer gun to catch her and fails (she outsmarted them).

October 2008, on a whim I put out some horse feed (dealer said dogs love it) for Angel, and she eats it, and runs off with the dish. Brings the dish back for more the next day. That was when I started feeding her.

Oct 2008 - April 2009. I feed Angel every day, and toss her treats several times a day, in an attempt to make friends with her. Also during that time, 5 failed attempts to orally tranquilize and catch her (with meds from the vet).

April 2009 Angel eats from my hand (prime rib) and makes progress in reducing her buffer between herself and me. Sleeps under the horse trailer, or hides at the vacant farm next door during thunderstorms. Still cannot touch her. Told the neighbors to stop feeding her as it would be best for her to have one source of food.

April - July 2009. Buffer gets smaller, will come when called, hang out with me and the horses at the barn. Very few attempts to meet the house dogs in the front yard through the fence. Still cannot touch her. One other failed tranq attempt.

July 2009 - Angel makes friends with the neighbors pup, who we used as bait to trap her in their barn. Vet comes to tranq Angel. This was the first time that she was petted. She didn't know what to make of it, and was very timid, subdued, no signs of aggression. Vet and technician state that they did not think she had a mean bone in her body but was very frightened.

July 2009 - Nov 2009 - Angel becomes a house dog with boundaries, which she was slowly accepting. We were not sure she would be happy living in the house, and were willing to let her go back to being and outdoor/farm dog if necessary, as she had now been spayed and had her rabies shots, even the vet was not sure if she would adapt to domestic life, so she did surprise all of us at how well she was doing.

And you all know the rest of the story how she is now living with Viney because Angel and Cubby did not get along, and Viney was a saint to offer to take her in and at bare minimum allow her to be a farm/outdoor dog if that is what Angel wanted.

Even as much as Angel trusted me, I don't think she thought of me as her protector, there were times when she would come in the house, I would call her, and she would turn around and head right back out the door. She is NOT your typical dog.

She has the option of going inside Viney's house for safety if she chooses. Even when she was here, she chose to spend most of her time outside, only coming in when I called her for bedtime, or when it was raining, and even then, not always, sometimes she would lay on the stoop and watch it rain.

I'm personally sorry that this thread is turning into a disagreement on dog training/raising, etc. To each their own. After you have spent 14 months trying to befriend a practically feral dog that is deathly afraid of humans, probably induced by abuse by whoever dumped her out here in the first place, you tell me how to "force" a dog to look to a human for security. Angel has a great survival instinct all her own, and she was not looking for a savior, she was looking for friends, and yes a place to belong, but on her terms.

I know that the many folks here on the BB that were so helpful to me all last year with suggestions and encouragement were hoping to hear positive things about her for the remainder of her days, well sometimes life thows you a curveball, and they don't all have happy endings.

MM don't worry about it...it's the nature of this board. Heck, go read my thread about self defense ideas....I've stopped reading it, because it turned into a debate. Got some good info from it, but not interested in a debate.

You and VR are the two on this board who know this dog personally, so even though there are those who just assume that they know more because they've read this or seen that...know nothing about this particular dog/case.

I hope VR will keep up posted.

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 07:58 PM
The dog doesn't WANT options. It wants safety, and it doesn't have it from you folks. Sorry if that's harsh, but its not all butterflies and rainbows and pats on the back for what you've done. You've done the dog a disservice, and haven't given it what it needs. It doesn't need to dictate its own terms. It needs to come to terms with human's world and will, otherwise, its a feral dog and will have to be shot before its instincts and personal terms kill another pet or hurt a person.


So are you willing to take the dog? This is what I am not getting from some of you...you are quick to tell these people that they are wrong (without seeing the dog, I might add), but yet no one is offering to step up and "make it right"....but have lots of opinions as to how it should be done.

There are alot of assumptions as to what is going to now happen with this dog...you guys aren't there, you aren't reading this dog's body language, you haven't a clue as to how this dog may or may not turn out.

I think it is sad that a COTHER stepped up, drove miles and miles to get this dog to offer a solution, and yet, some of you come on here and are suddenly experts with this particular dog. I'm sorry, but no two dogs are the same..what works for one, may not be the solution for the other.

Sure, it'd be great if Angel had a fenced in yard, it might be great if Angel was in a one dog home....but I don't see anyone offering those solutions, just nitpicking a situation that you, honestly, know very little about.

kdow
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:07 PM
I hate to tell you this...but one of the behavorists who worked with us (the police dog trainer) once told me NEVER TAKE THE GROWL OUT OF A DOG....that is a warning system...if a dog is taught not to growl, then you will have an unpredictable dog on your hands.

I have heard this exact thing from MANY other dog professionals.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:10 PM
MM don't worry about it...it's the nature of this board. Heck, go read my thread about self defense ideas....I've stopped reading it, because it turned into a debate. Got some good info from it, but not interested in a debate.

You and VR are the two on this board who know this dog personally, so even though there are those who just assume that they know more because they've read this or seen that...know nothing about this particular dog/case.

I hope VR will keep up posted.

Thanks, I usually do keep that in mind (and yes, I read your other thread and was not pleased when it turned into a debate, but such is life).

For those of you that think that all dogs must have boundaries, I highly suggest reading the book "Merle's Door - Lessons from a Freethinking Dog" by Ted Krasote. It has some great insights on dog behavior without any preaching or teaching, just a book about his experiences with a stray dog that he rescued from living in the wilderness, and his life as free spirit. It talks about sharing leadership with your dog, not being the "alpha" and how it will enrich your life. There are 15 pages of notes from other books that the author did reasearch on dog behavior, so it is not a feel-good peice of fluff type book. It comes highly recommended by folks like Temple Grandin and other animal behavior experts.

From his website:

"He also uses the latest wolf research—showing that wolves treat maturing pups as partners rather than as subordinates—to explain how sharing leadership with your dog, rather than being its alpha, can help to create a healthier, more self-reliant, and better-socialized companion."

http://www.kerasote.com/MerlesDoorB.html

http://www.kerasote.com/merle-reviews.html

I might just go read it again.

KentuckyTBs
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:27 PM
DalPal- I agree with you about the not taking the growl out of a dog. I've heard it from many people as well. And honestly, I'd rather be warned with a growl rather than simply bitten... and when you've worked at animal shelters... you NEED to know when you are dealing with a dog that is uncomfortable or aggressive (whether it is true aggression or fear aggression) otherwise, you'll end up bit more times than one would like to count!

Another Round- You should quit trying to tell others how to live with their animals. Suggestions and advice can be helpful, but plain telling someone that what they are doing is wrong simply because it is not how you would do it is not right. Like I've always said "If you ask 100 horsepeople a question on training, you will recieve 100 different answers" No ONE answer is right. One needs to take what they want from those answers and find what works for THEM. Heck, I've worked at animal shelters and I've taken in overflow dogs when my fiance and I lived on a farm. We had seven 10 X 30 kennels, two 10 X 20 kennels, two 10 X 10, and one 5 X10. We had 2-3 dogs per large kennel, 1-2 in the 10x20s, and 1 in each the 10x10 and 5x10. We free fed food and water. They lived outside 24/7, had dog houses (1 per dog, though most of the dogs all slept in 1 together) and had tarps over a decent portion of the kennel. They were mulched and the dog houses had shavings in them in the winter. Was it perfect? No, it wasn't. But all the dogs were happy and healthy and they got along. Never had anything more than some scratches/small bite marks if they ever got into a tussle, which does happen occassionally (I liken it to siblings... human siblings fight/argue sometimes but aren't dangerous to eachother) but mainly they all loved having buddies to play with and sleep with. They all were able to be let loose on the farm when I was outside to run in the field with me. If any ever got loose, they didn't run off- they would either come up to the house or they would hang out near the kennels until someone came out.

A lot of people would cringe that I had dogs living outside. Others cringe that they were kenneled together. Others at the whole free feeding... But you know what? The dogs were happier and better off than being crammed in kennels at the animal shelter with 5-10 other dogs... The dog in this thread, Angel, is OK. She is not the typical dog that you have. She is a feral type of dog that probably *would* go insane if she were forced to be locked up against her will. She's safe enough where she is, so why not just let Viney work with her and help her come around on her own accord? Stop criticizing everything Viney says just because it isn't how YOU would do it. There ARE other ways to do things besides how YOU would do it... Just my 2 cents.

KentuckyTBs
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:28 PM
MM- I am reading Merle's Door right now! :-)

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:42 PM
MM- I am reading Merle's Door right now! :-)

It is a great book, and since I have not read it in a few years, I will read it again as soon as I finish what I currently reading.

Equino
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:43 PM
That was a dog bonded and reliant on you, and looked to you, its pack for protection. At this point, this dog sees none of that in this OP - or its former owner - and has no regard for them. Voice may mean something to a bonded animal, wolves give voice over long distances to connect with their pack, but this dog isn't bonded with anyone, and needs to bond with the OP - not the former owner, if it ever did. Voices in the air to this dog are entirely inappropriate and are a self serving emotional pat on the back to the people involved. The dog needs protection and structure and boundries, not voices out of the blue.
Oh, I agree 100%! I was just sharing a weird story on how my dog seemed to have recognize the voice of on guy he seemingly hates.

lcw579
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:43 PM
No dog in my house is EVER allowed to growl or give voice to agression over any other animal, when it first comes in. NO adult dog in my house would be allowed to growl and snap at a puppy - nor would a puppy be allowed to push the boundaries of the adult dog. The adult dog MUST tolerate puppy behaviour, but I as the alpha, am the one to say "stop" to the puppy. If I don't, the the adult dog HAS to stop the puppy himself, and I have become a sideline viewer. I tell the puppy to stop. I tell the cat not to chase the dog and bloody its nose, I am the one to tell the dog "back off" when a child toys with it and I am the one to tell the child to back off and not toy with the dog.

If a dog is allowed to chastise a puppy, he will do so to a young child or baby and that's a dog which can't be alone in the presence of children, and can't be socialized and live with a family.

It just doesn't work like you all are imagining. This is what creates neuroitc dogs which chase cars, bark incessantly when you ride [past their house on a horse, and jump on visitors and snap at a child's fingers one day.

This dog in particular is predisposed to injure a person evenutally without boundaries from its handler.

You can create nice scenarios all you like, that's you, the human, imagining, not the dog living a difficult but useful and safe life with humans.

Oh for crying out loud, the best way for puppies to learn how to behave is to be taught by older well behaved dogs who give them doggie clues, like growling, when they are stepping out of line.

I'd like to know who told you that the part I bolded is true. I have and have had in the past perfectly well behaved dogs that will chastise a puppy that gets out of line but have never bitten or growled at a child or a baby. The standard poodle I have now guarded "her" human children fiercely and wouldn't even play much at the dog park if they were along since she worried too much about them. However, she is also the dog that puppy owners sought out as a playmate because of her patience and her way of reminding pups with a quick growl when they were getting too rough.

My dogs don't chase cars, they don't bark incessently at anything, they don't jump on visitors and they certainly don't snap at children. They get along with the cats and they play together. But I let my animals work out their issues, because they are, well, animals and perfectly capable of working out their own social order. I am in charge but not a bully about it.

AR - you are making an awful lot of assumptions about Angel without ever meeting her. Frankly, it sounds like she would crumble and regress under your type of ownership.

I'm with dalpal - I think there are a lot of people who need to step away from their keyboards and just let this play out. The people who know Angel are doing what they think is best for THIS dog. Who are any of us to second guess them?

Viney - please don't let all the second guessers keep you from updating. There are plenty of us who support what you are doing and want to follow your progress with Angel.

Equino
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:46 PM
I think you need to know when to step in and when to let the dogs figure it out amongst themselves. I will let an older dog reprimand a pup, but I will not allow two dogs to fight for dominance, or allow an older dog to shadow a kid the same way. Luckily, I've never seen the latter to happen.

kdow
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:48 PM
It is a great book, and since I have not read it in a few years, I will read it again as soon as I finish what I currently reading.

OT a little, but - how 'fluffy' is it as a book? I keep thinking about getting it for my dad, but he has no patience for reading dog books that are 100% positive happy puppy times - you know, like some of those positive training books that almost get a little New Age-y? It's not that he believes in traditional training so much as it is he hates it when people aren't properly scientific and logical. :)

FatPalomino
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:52 PM
According to FP's definition of aggressive dogs, an extremely well-respected dog behaviorist (Patricia McConnell) has an aggressive dog...
Plenty of us have aggressive dogs. I wonder if her definition of aggression differs from the text the vet behaviorist referred me too. And yes, I have read books by McConnell (very good, I should add).



If we deny dogs the ability to communicate 'do not want' to us in ANY way (because they're all forms of aggression) then how on earth are we supposed to know how the dog is feeling?
Whoa there. I never said to deny the dogs "the ability to communicate".

I 3rd agree with making sure *not* to condition out the growl. The pup I just took in is a product of this. No snarl, no growl, just bite. Good times.

I thought this was a discussion board- for discussion, other views and opinions, etc. I'm sorry if I misunderstood it.

MM- I think you are a saint for taking her in. I think you are more of a saint for never taking offense and to continue to listen :D There is nothing wrong at all with Angel living on her terms. The only reason I mentioned something is because others asked, and I really hope Angel doesn't get hurt running free... by a car or by those wild hogs I've heard so much about (I know they really bugged Bluey's horses!). I've seen street dogs that live to ripe old ages (for those dogs, about 7-9) and only get grazed by cars, and never seriously injured. Some learn, Darwin theory at work I guess. Do you know what happened to the other dog Angel was dumped with (maybe it was her mom?)? Poor creatures, humans screw them up every time it seems.

My vet and I have had a discussion about what to do with rescued horses like this. Many are fearful from previous abuse. Some are easy keepers and can live out in a big herd environment. One I know was flat out rank dangerous when handled. My vet made a very good point- if the horse colics, gets a bad laceration, etc, and we can't catch it, then what? It's not fair to the horse. I had never thought of it that way before.

VR- I hope Angel comes around and wants to lie at your feet one day, like she did MM's. Until then, kudos for taking on another to feed and watch over.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 08:58 PM
OT a little, but - how 'fluffy' is it as a book? I keep thinking about getting it for my dad, but he has no patience for reading dog books that are 100% positive happy puppy times - you know, like some of those positive training books that almost get a little New Age-y? It's not that he believes in traditional training so much as it is he hates it when people aren't properly scientific and logical. :)

I think the your dad would love it, there is plenty of scientific research references (15 pages of notes citing the sources), and since it is written with a male perspective it is not fluffy at all. Go read the reviews on the website, and the excerpt from the first chapter.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:11 PM
MM- I think you are a saint for taking her in. I think you are more of a saint for never taking offense and to continue to listen :D There is nothing wrong at all with Angel living on her terms. The only reason I mentioned something is because others asked, and I really hope Angel doesn't get hurt running free... by a car or by those wild hogs I've heard so much about (I know they really bugged Bluey's horses!). I've seen street dogs that live to ripe old ages (for those dogs, about 7-9) and only get grazed by cars, and never seriously injured. Some learn, Darwin theory at work I guess. Do you know what happened to the other dog Angel was dumped with (maybe it was her mom?)? Poor creatures, humans screw them up every time it seems.

My vet and I have had a discussion about what to do with rescued horses like this. Many are fearful from previous abuse. Some are easy keepers and can live out in a big herd environment. One I know was flat out rank dangerous when handled. My vet made a very good point- if the horse colics, gets a bad laceration, etc, and we can't catch it, then what? It's not fair to the horse. I had never thought of it that way before.

VR- I hope Angel comes around and wants to lie at your feet one day, like she did MM's. Until then, kudos for taking on another to feed and watch over.

Aww, I'm blushing, thanks! I'm not a saint, just a dog lover.

As to the other dog, the animal control officer told me that once they had her caught, she was very sweet, and was actually adopted out from the pound. I don't think she was Angel's mother, she looked more like a golden/lab cross. She had a big red belt around her neck, and AC said it was good that they caught her when they did as it was getting a bit tight. Too bad Angel never chewed it off of her.

I was always amazed that Angel never got hurt while living here, her survival instincts are really good. It didn't stop me from worrying, which is why I tried to hard to make friends with her, to try to increase her odds of living safely.

I'm sure over time that Angel will be very happy living at Viney's farm. I keep reminding myself that it has only been 5 days, and in perspective on how long it took Angel to trust me. . .5 days is a drop in the bucket.

kdow
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:12 PM
Plenty of us have aggressive dogs. I wonder if her definition of aggression differs from the text the vet behaviorist referred me too. And yes, I have read books by McConnell (very good, I should add).



It was in a video shared on her blog - I can't remember exactly what she said, but I THINK she was using it partly to demonstrate reading dog body language (because the older dog clearly told the puppy to 'lay off' with body language first) and partly to demonstrate reading the situation to understand when something that appears to be aggressive is part of acceptable social behavior and when it's actually indicative of a problem. (Like if the older dog had progressed from 'fine' to 'growl' with no intermediate steps, that might be cause for concern, because it's an unreasonable first response.)

She did recently say that she's been doing some seminars for vet students and vets about dog body language and identifying problems- both from the pov of just treating the dog without getting bitten and the pov of helping clients deal with issues before they become major - recognizing the warning signs of a puppy that's developing fear aggression, for example. So that might be something to look into since I think you're a vet student? I imagine it could be quite interesting.




Whoa there. I never said to deny the dogs "the ability to communicate".

I 3rd agree with making sure *not* to condition out the growl. The pup I just took in is a product of this. No snarl, no growl, just bite. Good times.


Yeah, I was replying to two people's posts in one, sorry for not making that more clear.

(And your comment about horses who are unable to be treated because of being fearful is a good one when you're considering the quality of life of the animal. That's very much the reason why we're working with Pirate to make him less sensitive to large males. He's never actually been aggressive towards a large male, but the degree of fear they can induce in him is higher than I want to see. I don't want him to be dependent on having me or another female around to be handled sensibly if he needs emergency care.)

goeslikestink
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:21 PM
I hate to tell you this...but one of the behavorists who worked with us (the police dog trainer) once told me NEVER TAKE THE GROWL OUT OF A DOG....that is a warning system...if a dog is taught not to growl, then you will have an unpredictable dog on your hands.

get away- i have had dogs all my life , and no they arnt allowed to growl at you
when a behaviorist rehomes a dog for the community it has a feed value test and agession test which includes the growl and bite test as when rehoming you dont want a dog to bite or growl at kids as then t becomes unpridicable of potentially putting a child in a an aggressive dogs way
can be distasterous = have you ever seen up close what a dog can do to a kid
and its face or body i have its not pleasant



all and any dog that show agression through various test willl be pts

as rescue centre like the proper ones not the backstreet ones that pretend to be good doers then end up having to have there animals rescuced cause they cant keep them correctly forwhatever reasons lack of food makes for an agressive real quick when they over run and ill cared for - but the genuine ones that have been rescuing dogs for decades - dont allow an agreesive dog into a home enivroment

how ever if a dog that is of police type army type ie gsd etc and the rescue centre have a dog that could be trianed in somesort of sercuity work then
the police army etc do often drop in to the centres and see what types of dogs are avaible and they normal pick ones that have a higher activiety and want to work -

meaning that the dog being walekd how evermany times aday isnt enough and the dog is over active then these sorts off dogs are chosen as they have the staminia to work all day - as some to the normal joe blogss are hypa active but in truth they want a job to do
this can inclused other breeds of dogs like spriner spaniels of which are well know that they dont settle to be a couch potato as its in there nature to work as they are working dogs same for the gsd
same reasons that the blind centres like labs or goldies for training and the same reason that the deaf or pat dogs societies come to the rescue centre

they are looking for a certian type of dog - for a certian type of job
the rest that go up for rehoming have to pass like i said - an agrressive test

i wont have a dog that growls at me if anyone growls in my house its me
as i am alpha not the blooming dog

a dog should never be in the position of being the majesty of the house hold they are on the floor - where they belong sitting by there majesty

citydog
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:21 PM
Someone asked the definition. Don't take my word on it.
Here is the definition of aggression from The Handbook of Behavior Problems of the Dog and Cat (Landsberg, et al) Page 386:
"Aggression refers to threatening or harmful behavior directed towards another individual or group."

Are you guys telling me that you don't see pyloerection, lunging, growling, snarling, snapping, and biting as aggression?

There's species and situationally appropriate, communicative aggression. An adult dog with developed bite inhibition and dog-dog skills shows "aggression" when it entirely appropriately reprimands a pup who chomps its ears a little too hard. A dog without bite inhibition or dog-dog skills who kills a pup just for being there is also showing "aggression". "Aggression" is rightly part of being a dog.

Bandying the term "aggression" about to the average pet owner brings with it a ton of baggage. "Aggression" (of any sort) too often (and incorrectly) equals "bad dog"-->punish/euthanize. Not particularly helpful to dogs or their owners, really.


NO adult dog in my house would be allowed to growl and snap at a puppy - nor would a puppy be allowed to push the boundaries of the adult dog. The adult dog MUST tolerate puppy behaviour, but I as the alpha, am the one to say "stop" to the puppy. If I don't, the the adult dog HAS to stop the puppy himself, and I have become a sideline viewer. I tell the puppy to stop. I tell the cat not to chase the dog and bloody its nose, I am the one to tell the dog "back off" when a child toys with it and I am the one to tell the child to back off and not toy with the dog.



It's great that you monitor them all so closely and don't just expect them to put up with stuff, but just like foals best learn appropriate horse-horse behavior from other horses, pups learn from other dogs. Certain body language, growling and snapping are dogs communicating. When people punish or don't allow the dogs to communicate, they set the stage for dogs who skip those warning signs and go right for the serious bite. And in the situation you describe, the dogs won't have the opportunity to fully develop the skills to interact with others when you aren't there to do it for them. Apparently the system is working for you and yours (so far...) or you wouldn't be doing it, but it goes against what the majority of veterinary behaviorists, ethologists, behaviorists and trainers who keep up with the research advocate as best for dogs and humans alike.


[I know I'm repeating some of what others have just said--that's what I get for writing before dinner and getting distracted before I hit "submit"...]

citydog
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:13 PM
i have had dogs all my life ,


I've had cars all my life--doesn't mean I know how to fix them.



i wont have a dog that growls at me if anyone growls in my house its me
as i am alpha not the blooming dog


I love ya, stinky, but you're doing a disservice to the dog.

Say you have a dog that growls when you try to handle its paws. The dog has told you quite clearly that it isn't comfortable with having its paws touched *and* it has also shown you that it has quite a reasonable level of bite inhibition. You can then teach the dog to accept--even enjoy--having its paws handled.

As for many rescue groups/shelters doing temperament testing and euthing dogs that show any sort of response other than happy happy joy joy, well yeah. Unfortunately a lot of groups are in the position of having to make sure that the dogs they adopt out are essentially idiotproof automatons without any training whatsoever, because your average member of the public simply don't have the inclination or knowledge or resources to actually teach the dog appropriate behavior. Initially, the standardized processes for behavior evaluation (aka "temperament tests") were used pretty much as a black and white, pass or fail, live or die thing in many cases. As we've studied what behaviors are/aren't reliable predictors of future behaviors (and analysis has shown that growling doesn't predict future snapping or biting after adoption) our assessments of dogs have gotten less black and white. http://www.co.kern.ca.us/acd/citygate/a7.pdf When resources permit, adding behavior modification to the mix can take a dog who was growly or even snappy over some portion of the test to a solid citizen.

Silvercrown90
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:15 PM
MunchkinsMom -- You did a wonderful job with Angel getting her to finally trust a human. Some of the naysayers are missing the point that Angel lived outside with no boundaries for 14 months with no incidents before she finally felt secure enough to come into your house. This took a lot of work to break down her barriers and lessen her fears.

VineyRidge -- You are also to be commended for stepping up to the plate to bring this dog into your heart and home. You are doing the exact right thing with Angel -- she is scared witless right now and she will come around, on her terms. For what it's worth, I would do the exact same thing if I were in your shoes.

I have been reading this story from the beginning, and I have never posted until now. I think Angel has found two angels -- MunchkinsMom and VineyRidge. I only wish all homeless dogs could find a few of their own angels, instead of ending up in a shelter where they will meet a certain untimely end if they don't "pass" tests within a day or two of arrival.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:29 PM
Thanks, I am curious to learn why Angel came into my life and into Viney's life, the lessons we both can learn from having her in our lives may be just something we needed. She did teach me patience, flexibility, and the ability to think about possible solutions to each hurdle that we faced on the road to trust. And to learn to not give up on the days where she took a few steps back along the way.

MHM
Dec. 3, 2009, 10:35 PM
She did teach me patience, flexibility, and the ability to think about possible solutions to each hurdle that we faced on the road to trust. And to learn to not give up on the days where she took a few steps back along the way.

Maybe that's why she came into your life? ;)

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:08 PM
get away- i have had dogs all my life , and no they arnt allowed to growl at you
when a behaviorist rehomes a dog for the community it has a feed value test and agession test which includes the growl and bite test as when rehoming you dont want a dog to bite or growl at kids as then t becomes unpridicable of potentially putting a child in a an aggressive dogs way
can be distasterous = have you ever seen up close what a dog can do to a kid
and its face or body i have its not pleasant



all and any dog that show agression through various test willl be pts

as rescue centre like the proper ones not the backstreet ones that pretend to be good doers then end up having to have there animals rescuced cause they cant keep them correctly forwhatever reasons lack of food makes for an agressive real quick when they over run and ill cared for - but the genuine ones that have been rescuing dogs for decades - dont allow an agreesive dog into a home enivroment

how ever if a dog that is of police type army type ie gsd etc and the rescue centre have a dog that could be trianed in somesort of sercuity work then
the police army etc do often drop in to the centres and see what types of dogs are avaible and they normal pick ones that have a higher activiety and want to work -

meaning that the dog being walekd how evermany times aday isnt enough and the dog is over active then these sorts off dogs are chosen as they have the staminia to work all day - as some to the normal joe blogss are hypa active but in truth they want a job to do
this can inclused other breeds of dogs like spriner spaniels of which are well know that they dont settle to be a couch potato as its in there nature to work as they are working dogs same for the gsd
same reasons that the blind centres like labs or goldies for training and the same reason that the deaf or pat dogs societies come to the rescue centre

they are looking for a certian type of dog - for a certian type of job
the rest that go up for rehoming have to pass like i said - an agrressive test

i wont have a dog that growls at me if anyone growls in my house its me
as i am alpha not the blooming dog

a dog should never be in the position of being the majesty of the house hold they are on the floor - where they belong sitting by there majesty

Sorry there sweetie, but I'll take the advice of a Certified behavorist who trains police dogs over some stranger on an internet message board any day.

As for the rest of your post, I stopped trying to read it, maybe I'm just tired and need to go to bed, but it was clear as mud.

vineyridge
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:14 PM
I have what I hope is good news to report tonight.

It's almost a full moon and the night is clear. Dogs were doing full moon howls and barking just to hear themselves make noise. I got tired of it, so I went to the back door to bring them in for the night. Angel was with them, and she actually came up to the second to top step before she decided not to come on in. I was in the door, and she seemed as if she really wanted to come in and be part of the household, but just couldn't bring herself to do it yet. Of course I invited her in, and when she started up the steps, told her what a good girl she was. She did not run away at all.

To me, this is HUGE! :D

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:26 PM
I've had cars all my life--doesn't mean I know how to fix them.



I love ya, stinky, but you're doing a disservice to the dog.

Say you have a dog that growls when you try to handle its paws. The dog has told you quite clearly that it isn't comfortable with having its paws touched *and* it has also shown you that it has quite a reasonable level of bite inhibition. You can then teach the dog to accept--even enjoy--having its paws handled.

As for many rescue groups/shelters doing temperament testing and euthing dogs that show any sort of response other than happy happy joy joy, well yeah. Unfortunately a lot of groups are in the position of having to make sure that the dogs they adopt out are essentially idiotproof automatons without any training whatsoever, because your average member of the public simply don't have the inclination or knowledge or resources to actually teach the dog appropriate behavior. Initially, the standardized processes for behavior evaluation (aka "temperament tests") were used pretty much as a black and white, pass or fail, live or die thing in many cases. As we've studied what behaviors are/aren't reliable predictors of future behaviors (and analysis has shown that growling doesn't predict future snapping or biting after adoption) our assessments of dogs have gotten less black and white. http://www.co.kern.ca.us/acd/citygate/a7.pdf When resources permit, adding behavior modification to the mix can take a dog who was growly or even snappy over some portion of the test to a solid citizen.


Agree....And want to add...I think some folks seem to have taken their "alpha" role a bit overboard, I think some people just love calling themselves THE ALPHA. :lol:....when dogs aren't even allowed to communicate themselves to other dogs, there's a problem. I'm not talking about fighting, but good grief, if an adult puts a puppy in it's place, it should.

No different than putting a cocky gelding in with a group of broodmares to set his arse straight.

I'm a fair alpha, I'm not going to micromanage my dogs.....I don't need to, they are balanced dogs, lived together now (three of them...1 neutered male, 2 spayed females) for 4 years and never had a nasty moment between the bunch. However, when my male plays rough with my female and she snaps at him, chases him off....I certainly don't scold her....she should be able to say that's enough.

Good lord, what's next....Time out in the corner, or no doggie snacks before bed.

Goeslikestink....I am one of those people who do not believe in euthanizing a dog immediately because it growled. That's a dog that needs to go to a home with educated adults to be given a chance. Sure, there are dogs who have been screwed up, past the point of no return, but I don't think they are all at that point. Euthanisia is a last resort in my book, not the first thing that I jump to because a dog growls over his paws being touched.

I do work in rescue, I am fortante to be part of a wonderful group that I foster for on occassion. I've had over 10 dogs come through my house in the past few years...some omegas, some alphas.....they all found appropriate homes through the organization that I work for. Some of them were stressed, worried, agitated....but we didn't just jump to the conclusion that they had to be euthanized without being worked with....I'm happy to report that every single one that came through my house, went on to successful adoptions.

dalpal
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:28 PM
I have what I hope is good news to report tonight.

It's almost a full moon and the night is clear. Dogs were doing full moon howls and barking just to hear themselves make noise. I got tired of it, so I went to the back door to bring them in for the night. Angel was with them, and she actually came up to the second to top step before she decided not to come on in. I was in the door, and she seemed as if she really wanted to come in and be part of the household, but just couldn't bring herself to do it yet. Of course I invited her in, and when she started up the steps, told her what a good girl she was. She did not run away at all.

To me, this is HUGE! :D

You are doing a great job VR..thank you for keeping us updated.

fooler
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:34 PM
I have what I hope is good news to report tonight.

It's almost a full moon and the night is clear. Dogs were doing full moon howls and barking just to hear themselves make noise. I got tired of it, so I went to the back door to bring them in for the night. Angel was with them, and she actually came up to the second to top step before she decided not to come on in. I was in the door, and she seemed as if she really wanted to come in and be part of the household, but just couldn't bring herself to do it yet. Of course I invited her in, and when she started up the steps, told her what a good girl she was. She did not run away at all.

To me, this is HUGE! :D

Very Huge! There is a special place in Heaven for both you and MunchkinsMom.
Here's hoping the positive power of the COTH BB will help Angel accept you, your pack and your home.

MHM
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:34 PM
Viney, thanks for the update.

Do you have food/treats handy to reward Angel's progress? It seemed like MM had good results with that approach.

SevenDogs
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:43 PM
Very Huge! There is a special place in Heaven for both you and MunchkinsMom.
Here's hoping the positive power of the COTH BB will help Angel accept you, your pack and your home.

:yes::yes::yes:

FalseImpression
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:45 PM
Excellent news VR, thank you!

I am getting tired of all the armchair behaviourists/trainers, etc. MM and VR are the only ones who know Angel and can see her expressions and body language. They know enough about dogs to interpret it correctly and work with it. It seems to me that Angel is a very smart dog and is willing to integrate VR's household. I agree that confining her would be detrimental to her. She will come around. In just a few days, she has already shown progress.

I don't think VR is close to any road or any danger, the dogs are used to having guests and no body is confined and any dog can move away from any uncomfortable situation. It is when a dog feels cornered that it shows aggression.

Good girl Angel. She will be home for Christmas!

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:48 PM
Thanks Viney, that is good news. Day 5 and she is making good progress. Sounds like you and your canine companions are working your special magic with her.

I second the vote for treats, she is a sucker for stinky treats (did you smell those treats I sent with her - phew!). All my dogs love them.

And I had to laugh at the barking, I had to call Cubby and Murphy in at about the same time that you called your dogs in, as they were both barking at absolutely nothing!

kdow
Dec. 3, 2009, 11:55 PM
I have what I hope is good news to report tonight.

It's almost a full moon and the night is clear. Dogs were doing full moon howls and barking just to hear themselves make noise. I got tired of it, so I went to the back door to bring them in for the night. Angel was with them, and she actually came up to the second to top step before she decided not to come on in. I was in the door, and she seemed as if she really wanted to come in and be part of the household, but just couldn't bring herself to do it yet. Of course I invited her in, and when she started up the steps, told her what a good girl she was. She did not run away at all.

To me, this is HUGE! :D

You just gotta tell your other dogs to keep telling her about all the WONDERFUL things that await inside. Like treats! and soft places to sleep! They'll have her coming in in no time. :)

Bluehorsesjp
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:00 AM
Viney you are on the right track.

Keep us updated I love hearing how Angel is doing.

kdow
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:04 AM
I love ya, stinky, but you're doing a disservice to the dog.

Say you have a dog that growls when you try to handle its paws. The dog has told you quite clearly that it isn't comfortable with having its paws touched *and* it has also shown you that it has quite a reasonable level of bite inhibition. You can then teach the dog to accept--even enjoy--having its paws handled.

This exactly. Or Foxy will sometimes give a little 'rrr' growl if you're brushing her and discover a hidden tangle and it pulls. It's not an 'i'm challenging you' growl, it's her way of saying 'ow! that hurt!' - so you keep brushing her but work at the matt more gently, because why hurt her unnecessarily? At the same time, she does know that ALL she is allowed to do is object vocally - if it's a particularly bad matt (like the one time she got tar(!) in her fur somehow) then some pulling is inevitable. So she 'rrr's and you say 'I know, but I have to do this' and she shuts up and puts up for it as long as she can. Then you get another little 'rrr' and you know she needs a break. It's just another form of communication.

Rubyfree
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:23 AM
Obviously those who are advocating forcing Angel into confinement didn't read the original thread.

I have almost posted this story about a thousand times in reply to both this and MM's thread about Angel, but it's such a book that I end up not doing so. The cliffnotes version is that a dear friend of mine adopted a dog from a TX shelter who had been in that shelter his entire life- six plus years. He had had almost no human socialization and was, as you could imagine, a very fearful guy.

He was also very kind, intelligent and reasonable, so when he figured out that food and affection were good, he latched onto my friend like velcro.

That said, he still (four years later) isn't a 'normal' dog. He never will be. He wants to please people and do what they ask, but he has to be allowed to think about it and decide to follow through on his own terms. 'Normal' dog training techniques are of no use whatsoever with him. No amount of training can overcome the missed vital socialization periods so many years ago. He's a perfectly happy, well mannered house pet now, but it took patience and understanding of that fact.

I would assume that the same is true of Angel. Her reactions and behaviors remind me so much of Forest; I am truly sympathetic to the difficulties of working with this kind of dog. You want so badly to be able to drag them into the house and go "See? it's NICE in here! I love you! Isn't this FUN?" But you can't. They have to decide on their own.

She's coming around, obviously, and faster than I might have thought she would. Keep it up Viney, and good job getting her to appreciate people MM. Happy thoughts coming your way from NY.

LoriO
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:39 AM
Ditto this!!!



Excellent news VR, thank you!

I am getting tired of all the armchair behaviourists/trainers, etc. MM and VR are the only ones who know Angel and can see her expressions and body language. They know enough about dogs to interpret it correctly and work with it. It seems to me that Angel is a very smart dog and is willing to integrate VR's household. I agree that confining her would be detrimental to her. She will come around. In just a few days, she has already shown progress.

I don't think VR is close to any road or any danger, the dogs are used to having guests and no body is confined and any dog can move away from any uncomfortable situation. It is when a dog feels cornered that it shows aggression.

Good girl Angel. She will be home for Christmas!

MHM
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:43 AM
The cliffnotes version is that a dear friend of mine adopted a dog from a TX shelter who had been in that shelter his entire life- six plus years. He had had almost no human socialization and was, as you could imagine, a very fearful guy.



That is so sad, to think of a dog spending so long in a shelter. :(

Glad he finally found your friend.

BasqueMom
Dec. 4, 2009, 01:06 AM
Viney and MM--Kudos to both of you for all you have done and are doing for
Angel. I think the fact Angel didn't take off never to be seen again from Viney's
speaks volumes that Viney is on the right track.

Whatever the outcome, you are both awesome!

Tazzie
Dec. 4, 2009, 10:03 AM
So are you willing to take the dog? This is what I am not getting from some of you...you are quick to tell these people that they are wrong (without seeing the dog, I might add), but yet no one is offering to step up and "make it right"....but have lots of opinions as to how it should be done.

There are alot of assumptions as to what is going to now happen with this dog...you guys aren't there, you aren't reading this dog's body language, you haven't a clue as to how this dog may or may not turn out.

I think it is sad that a COTHER stepped up, drove miles and miles to get this dog to offer a solution, and yet, some of you come on here and are suddenly experts with this particular dog. I'm sorry, but no two dogs are the same..what works for one, may not be the solution for the other.

Sure, it'd be great if Angel had a fenced in yard, it might be great if Angel was in a one dog home....but I don't see anyone offering those solutions, just nitpicking a situation that you, honestly, know very little about.



I just personally wanted to ditto this post, as it puts all my thoughts on this scenario into words. Thank you dalpal.

One of the biggest things that COTH has taught me is to not judge others.

Viney & MM - this is the first post that I come to every day, and that I check up on throughout the day. I applaud you for what you are attempting to do. Whether right or wrong, or whether there are better ways, you are attempting to make the right choices for you and for Angel.

Hang in there and keep us continually updated, as I know that there are many of us that love to hear how things are going, and that wish for the best for Angel. :)

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 4, 2009, 11:12 AM
I have almost posted this story about a thousand times in reply to both this and MM's thread about Angel, but it's such a book that I end up not doing so. The cliffnotes version is that a dear friend of mine adopted a dog from a TX shelter who had been in that shelter his entire life- six plus years. He had had almost no human socialization and was, as you could imagine, a very fearful guy.


Thanks for sharing that, it is comforting to me to know that Angel is not the only dog on the planet that has been through this, and that was heartbreaking to think of that poor dog being in "jail" for that long. Bless your friend for giving him as normal a life as possible for the last half of his life at least.

I have hope for Angel, that she is smart, and will figure out "where her bread is buttered" (as my husband put it once), and learn to enjoy being part of Viney's life.

I also think that the outpouring of good wishes and encouragment from all her fans here on COTH are a factor in our successes with her.

ptownevt
Dec. 4, 2009, 11:37 AM
This debate reminds me of what I refer to as the "Total Domination School of Horsemanship", that is, you do not move, blink, or even poop unless I tell you to. I want to put a big plug in for the continuum that runs from TDSH to the opposite, total out of control anarchy. I try to be fair to my animals, both dogs and horses. Do they need to mind? Yes. Are they permitted to bite me or push me around? No That said animals are sentient beings. They have feelings, wants and needs. I can't imagine developing a positive working relationship with a dog or horse by forcing them to stoicly accept anything from anyone or anything without reacting. Isn't that what we used to call breaking their spirit?

We have 2 dogs. When Uma, my big dog, gets entirely sick of Camille, aka, Little Dog, jumping on her, biting her paws and ears, etc. she may growl or even snap at the air (no attempt to connect). What would be the point of forcing Uma to accept whatever anyone wants to subject her to without comment? There's a long way between growling or snapping at an annoying little dog and killing it.

I just don't see any benefit in Total Domination of anything except to one's ego. Myself, I don't need it.
Pam

dalpal
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:01 PM
This debate reminds me of what I refer to as the "Total Domination School of Horsemanship", that is, you do not move, blink, or even poop unless I tell you to. I want to put a big plug in for the continuum that runs from TDSH to the opposite, total out of control anarchy. I try to be fair to my animals, both dogs and horses. Do they need to mind? Yes. Are they permitted to bite me or push me around? No That said animals are sentient beings. They have feelings, wants and needs. I can't imagine developing a positive working relationship with a dog or horse by forcing them to stoicly accept anything from anyone or anything without reacting. Isn't that what we used to call breaking their spirit?

We have 2 dogs. When Uma, my big dog, gets entirely sick of Camille, aka, Little Dog, jumping on her, biting her paws and ears, etc. she may growl or even snap at the air (no attempt to connect). What would be the point of forcing Uma to accept whatever anyone wants to subject her to without comment? There's a long way between growling or snapping at an annoying little dog and killing it.

I just don't see any benefit in Total Domination of anything except to one's ego. Myself, I don't need it.
Pam


Exactly....as I said earlier, I think some of the posters are taking the idea of ALPHA to an extreme. ALPHA means leader, not dominator.

Equilibrium
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:10 PM
This debate reminds me of what I refer to as the "Total Domination School of Horsemanship", that is, you do not move, blink, or even poop unless I tell you to. I want to put a big plug in for the continuum that runs from TDSH to the opposite, total out of control anarchy. I try to be fair to my animals, both dogs and horses. Do they need to mind? Yes. Are they permitted to bite me or push me around? No That said animals are sentient beings. They have feelings, wants and needs. I can't imagine developing a positive working relationship with a dog or horse by forcing them to stoicly accept anything from anyone or anything without reacting. Isn't that what we used to call breaking their spirit?

We have 2 dogs. When Uma, my big dog, gets entirely sick of Camille, aka, Little Dog, jumping on her, biting her paws and ears, etc. she may growl or even snap at the air (no attempt to connect). What would be the point of forcing Uma to accept whatever anyone wants to subject her to without comment? There's a long way between growling or snapping at an annoying little dog and killing it.

I just don't see any benefit in Total Domination of anything except to one's ego. Myself, I don't need it.
Pam

Pam,

Very well written and straight to the point.

Viney, I hope she continues to do well for you!

Terri

vineyridge
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:11 PM
We had another huge breakthrough this morning. Angel let me touch her near the back door and feed her a stinky treat by hand. She also followed me down to the barn with the rest of the pack, went exploring with them for just a bit, and then came back with them. When I last looked she was eating from the bowl at the back steps. The barn is half a mile from the house, so that is huge also.

With these huge steps based on all the MM has done and that we did spend the night together on the road, all of us, there seems to be a pretty good chance that she'll be in and out of the house long before Christmas. :D

SOTB
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:13 PM
So glad to hear things are going well! :yes:

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 4, 2009, 12:25 PM
We had another huge breakthrough this morning. Angel let me touch her near the back door and feed her a stinky treat by hand. She also followed me down to the barn with the rest of the pack, went exploring with them for just a bit, and then came back with them. When I last looked she was eating from the bowl at the back steps. The barn is half a mile from the house, so that is huge also.

With these huge steps based on all the MM has done and that we did spend the night together on the road, all of us, there seems to be a pretty good chance that she'll be in and out of the house long before Christmas. :D

That is terrific news, can you see me smiling for you from so far away :D ! That is amazing to me, and I am so glad that it appears you didn't have to go all the way back to square one with her. I got a lovely mental image of it all, so thanks ever so much for the update! I think she is going to love exploring her new world as she gets braver.

FYI - I got those stinky treats from TSC, they are the least expensive ones that they have, and I don't know what is in them, but my dogs are gaga over them.

Tiki
Dec. 4, 2009, 01:00 PM
Good girl, Angel. Good job, Viney.

Roxyllsk
Dec. 4, 2009, 03:40 PM
I have been following this thread and just had to say how lucky Angel is to have found first MM and now VR. She sounds like she is settling in nicely !

I have a dog that is a fear-biter - I got him from Sheltie Rescue who bailed him out of the pound. I've had him for 6 years now, and it's unbelievable what love, trust and patience will do. He's no longer afraid of strangers, and he allows me to do ANYTHING to him (clean his ears, trim his nails, etc). He still has his issues and always will, but we work around them. He has turned into a wonderful dog and is actually really, really great with kids - he loves them.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 4, 2009, 04:10 PM
I have been following this thread and just had to say how lucky Angel is to have found first MM and now VR. She sounds like she is settling in nicely !

I have a dog that is a fear-biter - I got him from Sheltie Rescue who bailed him out of the pound. I've had him for 6 years now, and it's unbelievable what love, trust and patience will do. He's no longer afraid of strangers, and he allows me to do ANYTHING to him (clean his ears, trim his nails, etc). He still has his issues and always will, but we work around them. He has turned into a wonderful dog and is actually really, really great with kids - he loves them.

Bless you for saving him and giving him the time to learn to be confident and trusting. It was more rewarding to me to work with Angel than the rewards I get from working with the dogs that we got as puppies.

suze
Dec. 4, 2009, 08:54 PM
Great update, Viney! Huge progress! Do you feed the other dogs treats where she can see you do it? She might not want to get left out of handouts, if you know what I mean.

Merle's Door - excellent book. For sheer fun, read "Walking In Circles Before Laying Down". Can't remember the author & not sure where mine is, but it's pretty hysterical.

vineyridge
Dec. 4, 2009, 09:24 PM
Just wanted to let y'all know that Angel came in tonight. I was watching TV, and she walked into the room with the TV and stayed for a while. She didn't lie down, just stood near the door; and then she decided to go on the front porch to her bed. She let me touch her, but I didn't push it at all.

It's all got to be up to her.

clm08
Dec. 4, 2009, 09:34 PM
So much progress in so little time! Thanks for the update. All will be well with Angel, I am sure.

Zu Zu
Dec. 4, 2009, 09:41 PM
That is a happy update ! Jingles continue for Angel in her new home.

MHM
Dec. 4, 2009, 10:20 PM
Yay for Angel- good girl!!! :cool:

dawglover
Dec. 4, 2009, 10:20 PM
:D

Good job Viney! Angel is making great progress.




Just wanted to let y'all know that Angel came in tonight. I was watching TV, and she walked into the room with the TV and stayed for a while. She didn't lie down, just stood near the door; and then she decided to go on the front porch to her bed. She let me touch her, but I didn't push it at all.

It's all got to be up to her.

FalseImpression
Dec. 4, 2009, 10:49 PM
yep, all on her terms :yes::yes::yes::yes:

Good job for understanding her so well... you know, I think the best idea you and MM had was to spend the night all together!!! I think it really made her see both of you together and the transition was as smooth as possible.

Go Angel! Go VR!! I can see MM's grin from here!

jetsmom
Dec. 4, 2009, 10:55 PM
Great update! Yay Angel!

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 4, 2009, 11:23 PM
Aww, another giant step for Angel! That is a really big step for her. And Kudos to your canine companions, I have a feeling that they are playing a pretty big role in this too.

It might be time to think about moving her bed inside near the dog door? Or maybe in a day or two? Just a suggestion, you have done so well so far, it warms my heart.

Is she playing with your other dogs at all yet? Or just hanging out with them?

I have to say, that spending the night with Viney and Angel in Pensacola was a good thing for all 3 of us, I got to spend a night with good friends.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 4, 2009, 11:47 PM
Merle's Door - excellent book. For sheer fun, read "Walking In Circles Before Laying Down". Can't remember the author & not sure where mine is, but it's pretty hysterical.

I'll have to put that on my Christmas wish list.

I read The Art of Racing in the Rain this year, loved it. It is not your typical dog book at all, written from the dog's perspective.

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Racing-Rain-Garth-Stein/dp/0061537934

Bluehorsesjp
Dec. 4, 2009, 11:48 PM
Great news!
Sounds like she is making all kinds of progress.

FalseImpression
Dec. 5, 2009, 12:12 AM
I'll have to put that on my Christmas wish list.

I read The Art of Racing in the Rain this year, loved it. It is not your typical dog book at all, written from the dog's perspective.

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Racing-Rain-Garth-Stein/dp/0061537934


I gave it to my husband last June as he is also a car racing fan. He really enjoyed it.
I did not read it. I really don't do well when the dog dies!

Have you heard of this book? "Endal"
http://www.amazon.ca/Endal-Allen-Parton/dp/0007303009/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259989907&sr=8-1

I just got it last week and gave it to my husband for his hospital stay.

sdlbredfan
Dec. 5, 2009, 12:23 AM
This is such great news! In reading the references to the 'stinky treats', I am (figuratively) dying to know what name are they really known by? I'll bet my canine contingent would like for me to find out and get some so they can give their opinion on them too, LOL.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 5, 2009, 01:17 AM
This is such great news! In reading the references to the 'stinky treats', I am (figuratively) dying to know what name are they really known by? I'll bet my canine contingent would like for me to find out and get some so they can give their opinion on them too, LOL.

They are called Smoky Sausage Treats by ProPac - come in a purple bag. I get mine at either TSC or the local feed store, they are only $2.00 a bag, the have a strong smell, and look a bit like cat poop :lol:. . . but the dogs love them!

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 5, 2009, 01:22 AM
I gave it to my husband last June as he is also a car racing fan. He really enjoyed it.
I did not read it. I really don't do well when the dog dies!

Have you heard of this book? "Endal"
http://www.amazon.ca/Endal-Allen-Parton/dp/0007303009/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259989907&sr=8-1

I just got it last week and gave it to my husband for his hospital stay.

That looks like a good one too.

As to not doing well when the dog dies, really in The Art of Racing in the Rain, it was not that rough, it was actually joyful in a way. I highly recommend it.

Bluey
Dec. 5, 2009, 07:27 AM
When we got our practically feral aussie, when you approached her, she would fall in a heap and close her eyes.
If you lifted her, she would not stand up, kept falling into a heap on the floor.
We left the door open to the yard and eventually she started coming into the house with the other dogs.
After she was more secure, she started using the dog door also.

She was well bred and breeding counted, as her sterling temperament shone thru.
She eventually became one of the nicest obedience dogs and a love sponge at the nursing home visits.

I know it is winter, but could you at times leave the door open some, so she may sneak in if she wants to?

Alagirl
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:25 AM
They are called Smoky Sausage Treats by ProPac - come in a purple bag. I get mine at either TSC or the local feed store, they are only $2.00 a bag, the have a strong smell, and look a bit like cat poop :lol:. . . but the dogs love them!


Smaellly AND look like cat poop, not that's a winning combination! :lol:

dalpal
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:29 AM
I just had the pet store order me some real tripe. It comes in a 2lb container, costs around 6.50. And let me tell you, the dogs were lined up last night at the kitchen counter when I opened that fresh tripe (I don't think it smells as bad, as some people do). I put two spoonfuls on everyone's dinner...and they were some happy dogs. :yes:

If you have a store in your area that carries raw...see if they carry or can order you BRAVO (brand Name) Tripe.

www.petfooddirect.com carries it, and "claims to give you FREE SHIPPING"...ha, ha, their price is around 38.00 for the same thing.

Tripe is sooooo good for a dog....I also think Solid Gold makes Freeze dried tripe treats.

vineyridge
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:29 AM
You know how when you first get up, you are groggy and don't notice anything except your need to make to the toilet? Well, this morning, I stumbled out of bed and headed straight for the bathroom as is my wont. While I was, to put it very bluntly, sitting on the commode, Angel came in and put her head on my legs.

After I got up, I fed all my dogs their hip and joint and skin and coat treats in the kitchen. Angel was right there with them, sort of hanging back and not being very confident. She got her treats too but I had to persuade her that it was okay, that her treats were for HER. I'd say that she isn't at all bouncy yet and is kind of hang doggy, but she's definitely working on it. I think Hoover is in love with her and possibly she with him.

It's cold outside, so she probably slept somewhere in the house. I did move her dog bed inside, near the foot of my bed, but that may have been just a little bit too close for her comfort. OTOH, there is a nice pile of old mattress pads in the living room and a very comfortable couch that she could make herself at home on and still be able to flee through the dog door.

To put it mildly, I am much encouraged.

KentuckyTBs
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:34 AM
Viney, What a great morning update! Angel is settling in, just taking her time :-) She'll come around the rest of the way, and probably fairly quickly. Great job!

Cloverbarley
Dec. 5, 2009, 09:54 AM
I am so very pleased to hear the updates Viney. Sounds like Angel is getting there. A little more progress each and ever day. :)

Alagirl
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:12 AM
You know how when you first get up, you are groggy and don't notice anything except your need to make to the toilet? Well, this morning, I stumbled out of bed and headed straight for the bathroom as is my wont. While I was, to put it very bluntly, sitting on the commode, Angel came in and put her head on my legs.

After I got up, I fed all my dogs their hip and joint and skin and coat treats in the kitchen. Angel was right there with them, sort of hanging back and not being very confident. She got her treats too but I had to persuade her that it was okay, that her treats were for HER. I'd say that she isn't at all bouncy yet and is kind of hang doggy, but she's definitely working on it. I think Hoover is in love with her and possibly she with him.

It's cold outside, so she probably slept somewhere in the house. I did move her dog bed inside, near the foot of my bed, but that may have been just a little bit too close for her comfort. OTOH, there is a nice pile of old mattress pads in the living room and a very comfortable couch that she could make herself at home on and still be able to flee through the dog door.

To put it mildly, I am much encouraged.


^_^ sounds great!

MM did the hard work, the second time around is much easier! :)

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:39 AM
You know how when you first get up, you are groggy and don't notice anything except your need to make to the toilet? Well, this morning, I stumbled out of bed and headed straight for the bathroom as is my wont. While I was, to put it very bluntly, sitting on the commode, Angel came in and put her head on my legs.

That made me laugh right out loud, because Angel used to do that with me in the first few weeks that she was in the house - at that time she was a bit of a velcro dog, and would keep me company while I was "on the throne". Sounds like she is all yours now Viney, here is a big {hug} from me on a job well done!



After I got up, I fed all my dogs their hip and joint and skin and coat treats in the kitchen. Angel was right there with them, sort of hanging back and not being very confident. She got her treats too but I had to persuade her that it was okay, that her treats were for HER. I'd say that she isn't at all bouncy yet and is kind of hang doggy, but she's definitely working on it. I think Hoover is in love with her and possibly she with him.

It's cold outside, so she probably slept somewhere in the house. I did move her dog bed inside, near the foot of my bed, but that may have been just a little bit too close for her comfort. OTOH, there is a nice pile of old mattress pads in the living room and a very comfortable couch that she could make herself at home on and still be able to flee through the dog door.

To put it mildly, I am much encouraged.

Wow, that is great, I think you have won her over, and every day she will get more and more confident. The hanging back during treat time, she always did that, always deferring to the other dogs, and I would have to coax her a bit to come forward, and she would still hang to the back of the pack, and then sometimes if it was a big size treat, she would take it outside to eat.

From the sounds of it, I would love to come back in my next life as one of your dogs!

FalseImpression
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:46 AM
Tears of joy and again a very very heart felt THANK YOU.

By Christmas? what were we thinking!!! I hope she is in love with Hoover and he with her!! Now, we will be asking for pictures, you know that, right?

lcw579
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:46 AM
What a great update, Viney! I am so happy that Angel is making such quick progress. :)




They are called Smoky Sausage Treats by ProPac - come in a purple bag. I get mine at either TSC or the local feed store, they are only $2.00 a bag, the have a strong smell, and look a bit like cat poop :lol:. . . but the dogs love them!


Smaellly AND look like cat poop, not that's a winning combination! :lol:

That's exactly what I thought! My dogs will love them. :lol:

Buffyblue
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:51 AM
So glad to hear of the wonderful progress you're making with little Angel! I've been following her story since the beginning and check daily for updates! She's a lucky lady to have found first MM and now you! And a boyfriend too! This is excellent! LOL! Oh yeah - perhaps some photos could be posted? Please?

Equilibrium
Dec. 5, 2009, 12:12 PM
Well done Viney and Angel - glad to hear the update!:)

Terri

Go Fish
Dec. 5, 2009, 12:27 PM
I predict Angel will be on your bed by the end of next week! :lol:

I'll admit I was SO disappointed at the recent turn of events. It was sort of like MM went through SO much with Angel, only to have it crash and burn so quickly. However, it sounds like Angel has found her place. I'll quit worrying now...:D

My two dogs and three cats line up EVERY time I go to the bathroom, even in the middle of the night. They can be sound to sleep somewhere in the house and they all come running. I don't get it...they don't do this with DH...

vineyridge
Dec. 5, 2009, 01:10 PM
If MM had not worked so long and slowly with her none of this would have been possible. I have just been followed her lead because she, if anyone, knows how Angel ticks. She is an amazing person to have gotten Angel so far. Thanks to MM, Angel knows that it is possible to trust and live with human beings. That's the only reason she has come so far so fast here. Because she really wants to be a person dog. That is because of the life that MM gave her.

Equino
Dec. 5, 2009, 01:40 PM
That is a fantastic update! Very happy she has Hoover-and you, of course! What are you thinking will happen with her, are you planning to re-home her or is she yours? I apologize if this has already been discussed, I don't think I read about that.

As for stinky treats-my mom makes liver treats once a month, bakes it into bite size training bait. The dogs LOVE it, but OMG does the house stink. She always does it the morning the cleaning people come!

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 5, 2009, 01:56 PM
If MM had not worked so long and slowly with her none of this would have been possible. I have just been followed her lead because she, if anyone, knows how Angel ticks. She is an amazing person to have gotten Angel so far. Thanks to MM, Angel knows that it is possible to trust and live with human beings. That's the only reason she has come so far so fast here. Because she really wants to be a person dog. That is because of the life that MM gave her.

Awww, Viney, that brought a tear to my eye and a song to my heart!

I was thinking today how lucky it is that we both have dog doors in our homes, so that she learned how to use it here, and that carried over to your farm as well.

I have faith that she will blossom in your care, and will love and trust you even more than she did with me.

I can't wait for her to start to play, so you can report on how she runs, and leaps. And how when she is excited to see you, that she curves her body and sings, and wags her tail so hard that she actually is able to hit herself in the face with her tail. This will come.

MHM
Dec. 5, 2009, 04:07 PM
...and wags her tail so hard that she actually is able to hit herself in the face with her tail.

Aww! That will certainly rate a video, not just a picture. :lol:

Glad she's doing so well! :cool:

suze
Dec. 5, 2009, 05:52 PM
Oh wow, I miss a day & wonderful update from Viney!! YAY! Coming along in leaps & bounds now. This whole saga from the beginning of MM's thread to these last few days has brought me to tears more than once. You are both very special people & Angel obviously feels that.

I read The Art of Racing in the Rain this year, loved it. It is not your typical dog book at all, written from the dog's perspective. Well, Walking In Circles Before Laying Down is also written from the doggy point of view . . . that's all I'll say about it ;)

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 5, 2009, 11:25 PM
Aww! That will certainly rate a video, not just a picture. :lol:

Glad she's doing so well! :cool:

I know, I tried to get a video of her doing that and singing, and the little bugger would leave the room every time she heard me turn it on. And if I left it on and called her in to the room, she wouldn't sing. It was very strange.

monstrpony
Dec. 6, 2009, 10:24 AM
I was telling a friend how I had hung an extra shower curtain across the bathroom door, to keep the heat in when I'm in the bathroom in the mornings. She asked why I don't just close the door.

I bet everyone here knows the answer!

My2cents
Dec. 6, 2009, 10:46 AM
I was telling a friend how I had hung an extra shower curtain across the bathroom door, to keep the heat in when I'm in the bathroom in the mornings. She asked why I don't just close the door.

I bet everyone here knows the answer!

I never thought of that solution! My cat has claws of steel and can open any door if and when she likes. For some reason, she insists on visiting me whist I steam away in a hot bath. The bathroom gets nice and toasty and then scratch scratch fling, and all my built up warmth is gone. Hmmmm, note to self next time out shopping.......

pj
Dec. 6, 2009, 11:12 AM
This degree of attachment sounds unhealthy for you. Maybe you need to let go now that you have made the decision to rehome the dog.

Hard advice but I agree...and :) yes it would be mean to talk to her over the phone and not good for her either.

pj
Dec. 6, 2009, 11:30 AM
They are called Smoky Sausage Treats by ProPac - come in a purple bag. I get mine at either TSC or the local feed store, they are only $2.00 a bag, the have a strong smell, and look a bit like cat poop :lol:. . . but the dogs love them!

:lol::lol:
They probably ARE cat poop and that's why the dogs love them so much!
I've often thought you could bag horse poop and sell them as treats to "city folks" (those who don't know what horse poop looks like) and make a fortune.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 6, 2009, 12:11 PM
Well, I don't live alone, so I do close the bathroom door, but for whatever reason, the dogs like to follow me in there. It's not like I ever fed them in there, so I have no clue as to what the attraction is. And if I don't let them in there is a lot of whining on the other side of the closed door.

However, they don't come in if I am showering - they probably fear I will drag them in for a bath at the same time.

pj - that was funny about the treats being cat poop. We don't have any cats, so I don't think any of my dogs have ever encountered the real thing, so these treats are a substitute I guess.

MHM
Dec. 6, 2009, 12:45 PM
However, they don't come in if I am showering - they probably fear I will drag them in for a bath at the same time.



My dog does the same thing. He'll come in the bathroom to check on me, but not if the shower is on. You can't be too careful! :lol:

I'm not sure why he feels the need to verify my whereabouts- it's not like I've ever climbed out the bathroom window and disappeared on him.

shea'smom
Dec. 6, 2009, 01:05 PM
I have 12 dogs. And we all have to go potty at the same time. I think it is because I am sitting with nothing in my hands, no computer, so it must be time for petting dogs!

cheval convert
Dec. 6, 2009, 01:14 PM
:lol::lol:
They probably ARE cat poop and that's why the dogs love them so much!
I've often thought you could bag horse poop and sell them as treats to "city folks" (those who don't know what horse poop looks like) and make a fortune.

They do have them - only for people! They box them in a fancy chocolate boxes and call the "road apples"!

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 6, 2009, 01:38 PM
They do have them - only for people! They box them in a fancy chocolate boxes and call the "road apples"!

What on earth would you do with a box of "road apples"? I know, totally OT, but inquiring minds want to know.

Blacklabs
Dec. 6, 2009, 02:59 PM
MM think she's referring to these.

Poop candy
The “poops” are caramels with different nuts in them and hand dipped in our
special blend of chocolate. The nuts in each “poop” are as follows:
Elk Poop – pecans
Bear Piles – almonds, pecans, and walnuts—then rolled in those nuts after being
dipped
Deer Droppings – almonds
Moose Poop – pecans and walnuts
Baby Buffalo Chips – plain caramel -- no nuts
Road Apples—walnuts and pistachios

cheval convert
Dec. 6, 2009, 04:03 PM
What on earth would you do with a box of "road apples"? I know, totally OT, but inquiring minds want to know.

They are a gag gift for the farming illiterate. If covered in chocolate I am sure they would be declared a delicasy(sp?).
(And no, I have not seen them dipped in chocolate.)

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

black labs, I was talking about actual horse poop put in fancy chocolate boxes and sold as a gag gift called "Road Apples". I know, it takes all kinds doesn't it?

vineyridge
Dec. 6, 2009, 04:56 PM
Now things are getting interesting. Angel feels enough at home that she spent the evening in the house with me and all the other dogs, watching a Harry Potter movie. But she's decided for sure that she belongs here, so she is being somewhat territorial about the yard. It's really kind of funny to watch her chase Pearl with her fangs bared. I don't know if she's playing or if she is saying "leave me alone", but she no long stands patiently to be investigated and pushed around by Pearl.

To me, this means two things.
1) She is gaining confidence and will not be a hang dog forever. In fact, she has stopped being a hang dog at all with the other dogs.
2) She has decided it's time to establish her place in the pack.

She's taking over!

I'm sure it will work out in the end, preferably in the yard. :)

sdlbredfan
Dec. 6, 2009, 05:38 PM
Wow, great progress both on the being in the house and her trying to figure out her level in the dominance hierarchy.

suze
Dec. 6, 2009, 06:29 PM
YAY!!! Go Angel!
We have a dog who loves to play the hang dog thing to get extra attention - we've never heard anyone else use that term. LOL

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 6, 2009, 06:58 PM
Well, sure sounds like you have a new dog! Give your pooches an extra hug from me, for a job well done.

Hopefully she will be nicer to Pearl once they establish their pecking order. She used to love to play with Candy, our big 60+ pound Rhody/Boxer cross, because Candy would play rough with her, and both of them would show plenty of teeth. She never messed with Murphy (our old mellow dog) because Murphy never messed with her. The three that did the wildest running after each other were Cubby, Jenna and Angel.

The only time I got concerned was if I saw any of them with raised hackles, then I would step in with the loud "NO - TIME OUT!" and play referee.

fooler
Dec. 6, 2009, 08:56 PM
Wonderful news about Angel!!!!

Sending good vibes, jingles, prayers, anything to keep the forward, positive progress!

God Bless both VR & MM! And the pack:winkgrin:

CB/TB
Dec. 7, 2009, 08:36 AM
Wonderful news and a great Christmas present for Angel- a new home and lots of buddies. MM, thanks for all your hard work getting her to this point . It hasn't been too much trauma for her adjusting , it seems. And Viney, thank you for continuing the Saga.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 7, 2009, 10:50 AM
I was telling my MIL all the Angel updates and she said, "that is wonderful, but I still miss her".

We are so grateful to Viney for giving Angel another chance at a life that will work for her. Maybe we can't save them all,but at least we saved this one.

starrysky
Dec. 7, 2009, 05:47 PM
Yay Angel. When I started reading this thread today, my heart sank. By the end, my heart has been lifted, and I believe there is hope - it sounds like she is starting to make herself at home there, and I have no doubt that she will soon be one of the pack.

Kudos to Viney and MM - you both are wonderful.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 7, 2009, 10:33 PM
Here's hoping that all is well at Viney's farm. My DH was asking today if I had any updates on Angel.

vineyridge
Dec. 8, 2009, 10:19 AM
Sorry about not posting yesterday.

I had to go to Jackson for some personal things, and that's a 300 mile round trip. It took all day, but Angel was still here when I got home, and she spent the horribly rainy night in the house, curled up near a heat vent. Still a bit standoffish to me, but not all to the other dogs.

On a good note, she has stopped carrying her tail clamped down in the back. That started to happen yesterday morning.

Gotta say that I'm exhausted from yesterday.

MHM
Dec. 8, 2009, 10:26 AM
Yay for Angel!

Thanks for the update. :)

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 8, 2009, 11:32 AM
Thanks Viney. Sorry about the road trip that you had to take, that does make for a very, very long day, and exhaustion. Hope you can rest up a bit today.

It does amaze me in a way that she has only been on your farm for 8 days, and that she is confident enough to come in the house to stay dry and warm, and that she is doing well with your dogs. I'm sure she will warm up to you, especially when she discovers that you are the source of all good things.

pinkdiamondracing
Dec. 10, 2009, 08:17 AM
Two days with no Angel update, and I find myself suffering from Angel withdrawals!!! What's new ??

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 10, 2009, 10:11 AM
Me too! Here's hoping that no news is good news and that all is well with Viney and Angel and all her other dogs and horses.

minnie
Dec. 10, 2009, 05:17 PM
Another voice hoping all is well.

Buffyblue
Dec. 10, 2009, 08:31 PM
Checking in for an Angel update!

minnie
Dec. 11, 2009, 08:01 AM
[edit]

Viney, you've posted about other stuff the past couple days. Couldn't you just give us a little update on Angel while you're online?

Zu Zu
Dec. 11, 2009, 08:15 AM
AR,

Viney, you've posted about other stuff the past couple days. Couldn't you just give us a little update on Angel while you're online? Ditto ~ given the history of this thread's subject ~ just a "she's fine" would be nice - many loyal readers following this story for a LONG :eek:time.

vineyridge
Dec. 11, 2009, 10:36 AM
We've had a terrible setback. Both Angel and Toby, my lovely little beagle, are on a walkabout, I hope together. I did not see either of them yesterday. I think Angel was around last night, but didn't see her.

monstrpony
Dec. 11, 2009, 10:42 AM
[edit]

Hope Miss Angel is doing well. I had one very much like her once, arrived in my driveway shortly before Christmas one year, so I dubbed her Angel; she, too, could not stand confinement and was allowed to come and go as she pleased.

Whoops--posted before seeing the post immediately above. Hope they're home soon and that you don't have any coyotes locally. :(

Crooked Horse
Dec. 11, 2009, 10:45 AM
Thanks for the update Viney, even though we will all be worried!

Angel seems like she belongs to all of us.

Please post as soon as you see one or the other or both of them!!

trubandloki
Dec. 11, 2009, 10:45 AM
Fingers crossed that Angel and Toby are accounted for soon!

Zu Zu
Dec. 11, 2009, 10:56 AM
Thoughts and prayers for Angel ~ I was worried this would happen.:(

Thomas_1
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:02 AM
Fingers crossed that Angel hasn't eaten Toby and then got smacked by a car on the road! Or else that both haven't been attacked and killed by the neighbours errant visiting pit bull. Or that both haven't been shot for worrying some neighbour farmer's stock. Or shot by some fruit loop that blasts anything and everything during the hunting season

For goodness sakes just make a decision. If you want to domesticate the darned dog then get it safe and (HINT) under control.

I remember reading VR's previous accounts of woe and turmoil when he/she ran two of the dogs over and one ran away for days with a broken leg and then she ran another over after you'd brought the first one back from the vet having ponitificated about whether to take it for treatment or not ....... or something equally mad and farsicle!

Just secure them and train them or else let them go where they can be cared for and not running round like some mutt pack.

I can't help feeling that it's definitely time to close this thread and just keep the original owner up to date via PM.

It's bugging the heck out of me reading all this piffle about a mutt pack coming and going however it wants.

MistyBlue
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:11 AM
A loose scent hound and feral dog running off isn't surpising.
Please consider a serious search, it's hunting season and loose roaming dogs out in country area aren't welcome by hunters or farm owners. :no:

CatOnLap
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:26 AM
I am sooo glad the person owning all those dogs and allowing a proven aggressive semi feral dog to roam loose, does not live anywhere near me.

I've had two dogs destroyed, not my own, because their owners thought it was OK to let aggressive dogs roam loose on their property and eventually they do go walkabouts, even over chain link fences meant for sheep. The first one got into my neighbour's chicken coop and decimated her flock, then attacked her farm dog who was trying to defend the flock. I caught that one and called the pound, who humanely euthanized it, even though they located the owner who couldn't be arsed to pay the fine and build a kennel. The next was another neighbour's doberman, who treed my cat and attacked my dog and then bit his owner severely when he came to catch him. He dispatched the dog later that night with his own gun and now keeps all his dogs kenneled.

It is certainly not the DOG's fault, but they are the ones who pay the price when their caregivers do not treat them appropriately.

It is time for this thread to close.

My2cents
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:27 AM
She may be on her way back to you MM. The incredible journey?

Thomas_1
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:29 AM
Perhaps it could be made into a film..... Afterall we've already had a practice run at the Oscar acceptance speach!

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:35 AM
Oh dear, I'll send out some good vibes that Toby and Angel come home to you asap.

Just an FYI - in the 14 months that Angel was "feral" here in my neighborhood, no one lost any livestock, or pets, so I don't think Angel is the type to attack livestock or pets. Yes, she did kill (or at the very least bring home), the occasional bird or squirrel (I found the remains in the pasture). Heck, my spoiled brat house dogs also kill the occasional squirrel, mole, rabbit, inside the fenced in front yard.

I certainly hope that Angel is not attempting a "Lassie Come Home" saga.

Sorry if this saga is ruffling feathers on the board, if it is too upsetting, then PM updates will be fine. I guess Viney and I just thought that folks that had supported all the efforts to domesticate Angel in the past year might be interested in any progress and/or setbacks.

More jingles that Angel and Toby come home to Viney.

ETA - both Viney and I feel that Angel may be part beagle, so this may be a case of two scent hounds out hunting rabbits.

Thomas_1
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:38 AM
MM I've a strong sense that there was a huge difference between what you did in terms of "persuading" the dog to trust you and then keeping it safe and having it neutered etc before it attacked one of your other dogs and just letting it do what the heck it likes and come and go as and when it pleases.

Quite simply the dog is now just part of a mutt pack that's roaming out of control.

danceronice
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:47 AM
MM I've a strong sense that there was a huge difference between what you did in terms of "persuading" the dog to trust you and then keeping it safe and having it neutered etc before it attacked one of your other dogs and just letting it do what the heck it likes and come and go as and when it pleases.

Quite simply the dog is now just part of a mutt pack that's roaming out of control.

Sorry, I have to agree with Thomas here....Angel was basically in a controlled situation once you got her in a position to be handled, while being free to come and go here with no boundaries for strange dogs means she's basically on her own again. And if she's followed a scent hound, good luck. The whole reason it's never a good idea to let beagles loose is because they get on a scent trail and just keep going. It was a couple YEARS before we started letting Molly off the lead even in controlled circmstances, and we haven't had a dog who goes out alone in unfenced areas for three dogs now.

MunchkinsMom
Dec. 11, 2009, 11:54 AM
MM I've a strong sense that there was a huge difference between what you did in terms of "persuading" the dog to trust you and then keeping it safe and having it neutered etc before it attacked one of your other dogs and just letting it do what the heck it likes and come and go as and when it pleases.

Just some background information, after we captured Angel and got her neutered and vaccinated, my neighbor and I did think that she might end up living as she did before, as a free dog in the neighborhood. But because she seemed to be adapting well to house life, we didn't do that. And after the fight with Cubby (regardless of which dog "started" the fight), I did toy with the idea of just putting her back out in the barn, and let her live loose in the neighborhood. However, I live on a very busy road, with a few gun happy neighbors (who like to shoot at things in the dark at 2AM when the bars close). And no, I am not living in a trailer park, this is a neighborhood of farms valued in the 1/2 to 1 million dollar value range. That doesn't mean that some of the farm owners are any more mentally stable than anyone else, trust me.

So, why didn't I just "turn her loose"? Because I was still hoping that she would fit in better with Viney's pack and lifestyle. And I have not given up hope on that, I am praying that this is just another minor setback.

Did I do everything perfectly? Probably not. This is not a perfect world, and I was "flying by the seat of my pants", with advice and encouragement from the good folks here on the BB, trying various suggestions with Angel to see what would work with her, as an individual. Hindsight is always 20/20, although I cannot go back and change anything that I did or what has happened.

The best any of us can do is to deal with whatever is facing us at this moment, good or bad, and take life as it comes.

Moderator 1
Dec. 11, 2009, 12:04 PM
We've removed some personal commentary and its responses from the thread. It's fine to disagree with someone's actions or opinions, but those differences of opinion have to be addressed with some level of respect for each other.

We are close to referring future updates to Off Topic Day, but as the situation does relate to issues still quite closely related to farm life--maintaining farm dogs outside, contending with feral animals appropriately, etc.--and there are quite a few people following the situation (whether they agree with it or not), we'll give it some more time.

Let's all please stay respectful of each other and handle any disagreements with that in mind as things develop.

Thanks,
Mod 1

mp
Dec. 11, 2009, 12:06 PM
Lawyers like Vineyridge and me - we get that 'Deliverance/trailer park' characterization a LOT. I believe there is another lawyer on this board that is also living out the dream of living on a horse farm in the south. Pam, maybe? Viney and I will have to see if she wants to join the "Deliverance/Trailer Park" Clique. < insert sarcastic emoticon here > :rolleyes:



If "living out the dream" means a dog door, two 40# freefeeders of dogfood in the house and welcoming any pooch in the neighborhood to come in and sleep on her "nice pile of mattress pads" in the living room or in her own BED, I'm hearing "Dueling Banjos" as a soundtrack. Yeeee ....

A person can be smart, good-hearted, educated and affluent and still be a mess, you know. And that's what this sounds like to me.

FalseImpression
Dec. 11, 2009, 12:11 PM
Hoping that Toby, who at least has lives with Viney for a while, will know what is best for them and will head home! and that Angel will follow him!

There is nothing else WE can do, except wish for the best. You both tried your best, and even if the best wasn't as good as some think it should have been, YOU both were the ones who willingly dealt with the situation. If there is to be a "pm" update list, please put me on it! Thank you!

And it upsets me a lot that people have labeled Angel aggressive... sheesh... if you fight once with a brother/sister/husband, does that make you aggressive? Humans can be aggressive too, even with no teeth to solve their problems.

Angel... go home!