Design me a horse shoe!

[mvp]

Here's what I want:

A shoe that has a geometry that eases break-over not only front-to-back, but which will allow break-over at any point around the toe. Think of a Grand Circuit Marsden shoe.

I'd also like a 2 degree wedge built in, but that should be made of a softer material like polyurthethane.

Yes, I can get this in a glue-on shoe-- I think Grand Circuit makes them, but the whole glue-on way of life is really expensive.

Here's the horse's deal: He has some angular deviations that make him paddle and the OA in his pasterns to show for it. He also has one foot that's is too "flat"-- left to his own devices, he won't keep one angle from coffin bone to fetlock joint, but really wants to break back at the pastern joint.

For the past couple of years, my farrier and I have spoken to this gelding about growing more heel. We have explained to him that he could be part of the solution, not part of the problem if he would just grow some heel. He refuses. Even worse, he seems to allow a wedged metal shoe to crush his heels further.

So what's out there for this horse?

[BumbleBee]

Here's what I want:

A shoe that has a geometry that eases break-over not only front-to-back, but which will allow break-over at any point around the toe. Think of a Grand Circuit Marsden shoe.

I'd also like a 2 degree wedge built in, but that should be made of a softer material like polyurthethane.

Yes, I can get this in a glue-on shoe-- I think Grand Circuit makes them, but the whole glue-on way of life is really expensive.

Here's the horse's deal: He has some angular deviations that make him paddle and the OA in his pasterns to show for it. He also has one foot that's is too "flat"-- left to his own devices, he won't keep one angle from coffin bone to fetlock joint, but really wants to break back at the pastern joint.

For the past couple of years, my farrier and I have spoken to this gelding about growing more heel. We have explained to him that he could be part of the solution, not part of the problem if he would just grow some heel. He refuses. Even worse, he seems to allow a wedged metal shoe to crush his heels further.

So what's out there for this horse?
Never heard of the Marsden might you mean Morrison?

Either way what you describe should be easy to get by simply adding a wedge pad of the desired firmness to a half round shoe.

[rcloisonne]

The NB PLR shoe:

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/edss/store/perfprod.html#PLR

IMO, you'd be far better off with a flat shoe and soft wedge pads, rather than wedging with a steel shoe.

In addition, if you don't trim the heels back to the widest part of the frog on that underun foot, as well as shorten the toes, his heels will continue to crush. You need a farrier who understands the mechanics of what's happening and how to address it.

Wishing the horse would grow more heel is a waste of time and won't happen. He's growing heel, it's just growing in the wrong direction. Wedging with a shoe to realign the pedal bones without fixing the trim is one of the worst things you can do.

[mvp]

Bumble Bee-- Yes, Morrison. I'm *this much* less stoopid than I look.

rcloisonne-- I believe Horseling has worn a NB PLR shoe. Thanks for the nice link.

It would be perfect if the front edge weren't a tad squared, even in the fronts. As I understand it, the squaredness means the farrier must be damned accurate in putting the shoe on the foot at just the right orientation if the horse paddles. Otherwise he hits an edge in as he breaks over and twists his tender coffin-, pastern- and perhaps even fetlock joints during that last phase of the stride while the shoe is stuck to the ground in the wrong orientation.

Alas, the shape of the hoof means you can put nails in only so many places and that seems to limit our ability to put a shoe on with the center of the toe off 12 o'clock. Make sense? My technical-guru farrier loved glue-ons precisely because they allowed him to put the shoe on "crooked" as it suited my horse's conformation.

But the NB PLR shoe with a soft wedge added may be the best we can do, short of glue ons.

For you anti-wedge types: I agree that the foot must be trimmed to the widest point of the heel. Been there, done that. I don't know enough to know why, but this wasn't enough to either "grow heel" or otherwise shape my horse's hoof capsule in such a way that coffin and long pastern bones were in one neat line.

And again for your anti-wedge types: The fear of crushing heels aside, do you think that a wedge added to an NB-style shoe (set well back) minimizes the other long-term problems that come from wedging up heels? I'm not sure what those are.

Thanks for helping educate me. It takes a village.

[Dressage.For.Life.]

If you're still wanting more opinions, try posting on here (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/) as obviously a lot of farriers are on there :lol:.

[Patty Stiller]

It would be perfect if the front edge weren't a tad squared, even in the fronts.its not really square its just blunted. There are no "corners"on it. As I understand it, the squaredness means the farrier must be damned accurate in putting the shoe on the foot at just the right orientation if the horse paddles. OIF the horse needs breakover much off center it is easy to grind or rasp a breakover more in the direction the horse desires. Otherwise he hits an edge in as he breaks over and twists his tender coffin-, pastern- and perhaps even fetlock joints during that last phase of the stride while the shoe is stuck to the ground in the wrong orientation. NO. The shoe is not going to stick to the ground in any direction because of the bevel on the bottom, In fact the hole IDEA and design of a PLR shoe is to NOT stick the foot to the ground in any direction, as a flat shoe would do.

As to the horses low heel issue.... trim them off.
It is a MYTH that horses needs to "grow more heel" . Allowing heel overgrowth runs them forward and is the reason that metal shoes have been crushing them. Trim them OFF as far down as possible, then IF the hoof angle needs to be brought back up add wedge shoes or shoes with wedge pads.
And pay attention to the toes, because many cases of " low heels" are really just illusion from long toes.

[Tom Stovall]

Patty Stiller in gray, stuff deleted

As to the horses low heel issue.... trim them off.
It is a MYTH that horses needs to "grow more heel" . Allowing heel overgrowth runs them forward and is the reason that metal shoes have been crushing them. Trim them OFF as far down as possible, then IF the hoof angle needs to be brought back up add wedge shoes or shoes with wedge pads.
And pay attention to the toes, because many cases of " low heels" are really just illusion from long toes.

Whoa! Given the presentation of LTLH, before you start whacking the heels off, check the direction of growth of the hoof fibers at the heel: If they're growing medially (toward the frog), then Ms Stiller's advice is correct and all the aberrant growth must be removed before the fibers that comprise the wall can possibly grow in the direction mandated by the horse's DNA, simply because new growth follows old.

Please be aware that the horse's "normal" direction of growth may be either medial or lateral!

When the fibers are oriented laterally (away from the frog) on the hooves of a horse presenting LTLH, removing heel will do more harm than good and the LT portion of LTLH needs addressing.

Over the years, I've found the "ideal" shoe (if such a shoe exists) for this presentation/application, whether or not accompanied by wedges and/or polymers, is a half round set under as far as it'll go. Unfortunately, you can't buy the best possible half rounds for this application, they must be forged from blanks or bar stock because commercially available half rounds are either swaged through the nail pattern or punched for city head nails.

When you really want to put a horse's front end on ball bearings with half rounds, any swaging or nail heads protruding below the ground surface of the shoe are impediments to turnover. In other words, this is one of those times that a horse needs something that can't be found on the supplier's shelf - and when this happens, one can either be satisfied with "good enough" or fire up the forge. :)

[mvp]

Patty and Tom--


Thanks so much for your patient and technical advice.

This horse has been trimmed and shod by two top-notch guys in separate areas (long story about why this horse has been so cosmopolitan).

It is true that guy #2 trimmed his "long-toed" foot to look more like the nicely upright one. Can't figure out what guy #1 is doing, nor did I study/ask about guy #2's different technique. Dude #1 was the man who taught me about looking for fibers growing in the right direction (not curled under) and trimming to the widest part of the heel. I assumed his trims (and long track record of great corrective shoeing for my beast) were the best we could do.

In either case, it seems the horse's DNA has spoken. It appears that he will not reshape his hoof capsule enough on his own to correct the angles without wedges. Even guy #2 who made the hooves look more even to my ammy eye had wedges.

To make things even more complicated, I now need to introduce a 3rd farrier into the mix. Horseboy is in semi-retirement and at a small barn that's not on either expert-farrier's circuit. For this reason, I'm doing the leg work of trying to figure out (at least in theory) a shoeing protocol that's "good enough" and relatively simple to execute.

My question was about the long-term damage done by continued wedges, and if that were lessened by the round, set-back, NB-style shoe that would at least ease break-over.

I certainly will talk to guy 3# about modifying a shoe to help this paddling horse break over where he wants.

Any more thoughts? If not, thanks all for your help.

[Patty Stiller]

Whoa! Given the presentation of LTLH, before you start whacking the heels off, check the direction of growth of the hoof fibers at the heel: In most cases they are growing forward, toward the toe, with the buttresses curling medially. I cant remember one ever with "low heels" as was described by THIS OP that had the heel buttresses flaring outward, laterally.
But then again, maybe Texas horses are some kind of a different species :lol:
If they're growing medially (toward the frog), then Ms Stiller's advice is correct and all the aberrant growth must be removed before the fibers that comprise the wall can possibly grow in the direction mandated by the horse's DNA, simply because new growth follows old. Which is exactly what I meant. Thank you.
Please be aware that the horse's "normal" direction of growth may be either medial or lateral!When the fibers are oriented laterally (away from the frog) on the hooves of a horse presenting LTLH, removing heel will do more harm than good and the LT portion of LTLH needs addressing.
If you read the original post here, it sure does not sound like lateral flaring of the heels. And personally in 28 years doing this, I can't remember ever seeing that in a LTLH foot. Really.

[Tom Stovall]

Patty Stiller in gray, stuff deleted

If you read the original post here, it sure does not sound like lateral flaring of the heels.

Lateral orientation of heel fibers is normal and does not imply flaring. The hoof derives its inverted cone shape from being smaller in circumference at the top than at the bottom, a shape that would be impossible to achieve without lateral wall growth.

And personally in 28 years doing this, I can't remember ever seeing that in a LTLH foot. Really.

Really? I guess it depends on where you've been "doing this."

In my experience, lateral orientation of heel fibers in horses presenting LTLH is uncommon in horses from arid environments (West TX, Southeast CO), but a fairly common presentation in horses from wet environments (e.g., Coastal TX, LA).

[mvp]

This horse has the standard heels curling in-- toward the frog. He's now 16 with the quarters and heels looking more narrow than they did when he was younger.

I realize we are fighting an uphill battle and will continue to. Great farrier #1 has explained the physiology behind this, and what it means for shoeing: As my Old Man gradually loses some circulation back there, he'll continue to offer us less and less hoof-growth in the heels. So crushing that part of his foot and constricting blood flow further is something we want to avoid.

Hope I have gotten this right.

[BK to some]

so i have a gelding that i've had similar issues with. and he's got horrible hoof quality, etc. TB. ugh.

so this is what my latest farrier has done :

take a regular shoe, and weld a straight piece of another shoe across the back like a bar shoe, except he puts it on the underside of the shoe, so its raised at the heel. so the regular shoe is flat on the bottom of the hoof, but the heel is raised underneath. the heel of the shoe does not hang out the back of the hoof though because this horse is a genius for pulling off his shoes. (oh, and his other front foot is clubby).

i have gone the route of wedges and had crushed heels. i have used heart bars with some success. i'm giving this farrier a chance to see what he can do. its been on for 3 settings now. and he keeps the shoe on for the whole time which is extremely unusual for this horse. he used to always pull the shoes off.