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Venture22
Nov. 27, 2009, 10:55 PM
I thought a gaurd dogs job was to keep intruders out of the flock/herd and were exempt from dog bite laws.

http://mobile.latimes.com/inf/infomo;JSESSIONID=3ECDEBC80118DE821AA2.4414?view=p age8&feed:a=latimes_1min&feed:c=topstories&feed:i=50734939&nopaging=0

If this is not set straight livestock owners will not have any say at all.

FWIW-I think that the mountain biker should be put on a strict vegan diet for life. Not a bite of meat, a sip of milk or even an egg-ever! Raising livestock is hard and the ranchers are not getting much respect.

Polydor
Nov. 28, 2009, 12:53 AM
That definitly isn't right. I can see why the dogs attacked. All they say was something big and fast coming hurdling down the hill at the sheep. The race organizers should be the ones getting fined or something since had they just told the farmer/rancher the whole thing could have been avoided.

Bears do the exact thing in the mountains if surprised by bikers or joggers ( and ate killed for it but thats another issue).

Sad situation all the way around.. dogs just doing what they were bred and taught to do.

P.

Meredith Clark
Nov. 28, 2009, 01:23 AM
So did the dogs end up getting put down? I read it as the farmer would rather have them destroyed then have to be tied up for the rest of their lives?

I always try to be open minded but i've been rubbed the wrong way soooo many times by mountain bikers. Many of them (but certainly not all) have this elitist attitude that they own whatever area they are currently biking on and they don't have to have any regard for anyone they come across.

Then again I grew up and live in the Fair Hill area in which the bikers have been waging a war to decrease the amount of horse related activities the Natural Resource area is used for. (the Natural Resource area that was donated to the govt by the DuPonts for Equine use...)

bird4416
Nov. 28, 2009, 08:19 AM
Its a tragic incident for all concerned. Why didn't anyone go after the moron that didn't inform the rancher that the race was scheduled? I think the majority of the blame lies there.

Venture22
Nov. 28, 2009, 11:50 AM
Another article written not long after the incident. Ergo probably closer to the truth.
http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20080711/NEWS/782701683&parentprofile=searc&plckCurrentPage=33&sid=apps.vaildaily.com
The comments fill in a lot of holes the the news didn’t.
Such as there were two other bikers who cut through the flock first. The woman followed and she was the one the dogs caught. She knew there were dogs she didn’t care.

carp
Nov. 28, 2009, 12:48 PM
I've long been bothered by the me-me-me confrontational attitude of yuppies towards rural ranchers and farmers.

First, a lot of people who object to agricultural use of public land forget that a lot of public land was once private land. The farmers and ranchers could have fought pretty hard against the parks and national forests. Instead, a lot of the owners agreed to cede ownership of their land in exchange for being able to continue the agricultural usage. Without the cooperation of the original land owners, we wouldn't have the public lands we're now trying to drive their decendents off of.

Second, the reason a lot of open space still exists is because it has been in continuous agricultural usage. Business abhors a vacuum as much as nature does. Remove the farmer, and you won't just get a green rolling valley to use as a playground. you'll instead get a Walmart, sub-division, or even meth lab with trigger happy guards. Personally, I prefer the farmer.

AppJumpr08
Nov. 28, 2009, 07:44 PM
"No one seems to get the idea that these dogs need to be taught not to bite someone," Steve Legro said.


UMMM Dude? They are WORKING dogs ment to PROTECT their flock... unfortunately for them the mountain bikers looked like predators. It's not like the dogs went off looking for a Sunday School picnic to bite small children. :sigh:

buschkn
Nov. 29, 2009, 09:45 AM
That makes me want to maul Renee Legro myself, and her husband. He said something like "I mean, how do you recover from being mauled by dogs?" Well, you give it some time to heal, and you go back to work a-hole.

The dogs were doing their job, and while I agree they shouldn't attack people, they didn't go off and just randomly attack someone. She came hurtling down a mountain towards their flock. Damn righteous yuppies.

danceronice
Nov. 29, 2009, 01:37 PM
Honestly, people like that should be required to live in city centers. They don't deserve to be allowed to enjoy the outdoors. Wonder who they'll sue when it's a mountain lion next time.

CosMonster
Nov. 29, 2009, 03:06 PM
That is stupid. Even my pet, well-socialized, super-friendly dogs have gotten nervous about someone speeding towards us on a mountain bike, because they don't know what it is and something strange coming that fast towards you is a threat (honestly, I've gotten nervous about someone speeding towards me while I was hiking on a narrow trail because I didn't know that they wouldn't hit me). How much more so for a livestock guardian dog, who is trying to do his job and protect the herd. I think the fact that other people were able to chase the dogs away and not get threatened/attacked themselves is a good indication that these are not vicious dogs, that they were just doing their job.

Shame on the Legros for insisting that criminal charges be pressed on the rancher. I'm sure it was a very traumatic experience, but as I see it the fault lies with the race organizer for not notifying the ranchers so they could move their herd, and with the biker for not knowing how to act around guardian dogs. I don't blame her for that ignorance because we can't all know everything, but that doesn't mean it is okay to press charges. If these dogs had a history of attacking people or if she had been passing by at a distance and the dogs left the herd to go after her that would be one thing, but it sounds like she was pretty much riding through the herd, which is not okay.

crosscreeksh
Nov. 29, 2009, 03:47 PM
I have a Great Pyrenes as well as two German bred shepherds. They will defend their territory, but don't seek out people to attack...however a human on foot vs a human on a speeding bike probably don't look the same to any dog. A speeding biker probably looks a bit like a predator on wheels!! God forbid the bikers have to use any sort or common sense when riding in grazing country. Maybe the organizers should have made some warnings to the bikers. Those dogs are doing a job and although they may not be terribly friendly pets...they are not usually agressive when not threatened. Hope the woman recovers and they have sense enough not to put the dogs down for doing what they are "hired" to do.

JSwan
Nov. 29, 2009, 05:01 PM
More "entitlement" mentality at work.

There's a reason those guard dogs are there - and it's not to protect the herd from moronic yuppies. She's lucky she wasn't attacked by a wolf or other large predator. Guess if she was she'd bitch about the predators and insist guard dogs be used to protect the bikers.

You just can't win with some people. You can just hope they don't breed. :no:

jubilee43
Nov. 30, 2009, 07:35 AM
More "entitlement" mentality at work.

There's a reason those guard dogs are there - and it's not to protect the herd from moronic yuppies. She's lucky she wasn't attacked by a wolf or other large predator. Guess if she was she'd bitch about the predators and insist guard dogs be used to protect the bikers.

You just can't win with some people. You can just hope they don't breed. :no:

Totally agree!

yellowbritches
Nov. 30, 2009, 08:26 AM
I have very mixed feelings about this story (especially since I am a mountain biker, too). But my biggest question is: what would everyone's reaction be if these dogs had gone after a horse and rider?

wendy
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:23 AM
hard to say. I personally think "public land" shouldn't be used by ranchers to graze their livestock, especially sheep- they destroy it. Ranchers should buy their own land and keep their beasties on it. Then if stupid mountain bikers get eaten by wild animals or sheep guardians it's clearly no one's fault except the bikers. The dogs were certainly NOT to be faulted in this horrible incident.

lcw579
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:23 AM
You just can't win with some people. You can just hope they don't breed. :no:

They already did. :no: This was her "big night out" - remember?

Stories like this just make me want to scream! I remember when the mountainbikers first started invading the park where we rode. They were very rude and thought nothing of whizzing up behind the horses and scaring them half to death. Never an apology, I think they did it for kicks. :rolleyes:

As for if this had been a horse and rider that were mauled - I would hope that someone on horseback would have had the sense to give a herd of sheep a wide berth and thus avoided the whole situation in the first place. If not then, sorry, you brought it on yourself - the dogs were just doing their job.

JSwan
Nov. 30, 2009, 09:39 AM
That's a fair question, yellowbritches.

Personally, my reaction would be the same.

We all have a right to enjoy public land - but that right comes with responsibilities. We have a duty to be aware of what other users are doing, be considerate and careful not to disturb wildlife or livestock, etc.

The organizers of this ride could have coordinated with other users to make sure there were no conflicts. Had they done so - the rancher probably would have simply moved his flock elsewhere. He doesn't want them disturbed any more than the moutain bikers want to be mistaken for a predator.

Farmers and ranchers are in an impossible position. The reason those dogs are there (whether it's public land or private) is to protect the flock from predators. It used to be that predators were shot - now farmers are told, even forced, into tolerating predators and predation on their livestock.

In some areas, programs are set up to provide these ranchers with the livestock guardian dogs - this is part of an effort on the part of the gov't and animal rights groups to "rewild" the US. There are also compensation programs to repay ranchers for livestock losses due to predation. Most of those programs have run out of money. (double check me on that because it varies state to state)

Basically what this rancher has done is do what the gov't and AR groups told him to do. Not shoot predators - but accept increased losses and try and protect his flock using these dogs.

And now he's being told - no no - bad rancher. we're going to sue you because you did the "eco-friendly" thing, and urban oriented people can't be bothered to learn anything about the land they're using.

No matter what - the dogs lose. And that is a terrible shame as they were just doing their job. :no: And the rancher may lose everything; or if not go back to shooting predators instead of being so "eco-friendly".

But I think it just boils down to the fact that we've become a very self-centered society with a sense of entitlement. Add that to the fact that most people are very disconnected from nature and agriculture, and it's just conflict after conflict. Quite a shame, really.

RAyers
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:06 AM
You all need to spend some time and learn about the west. Colorado is an Open Range state (fence OUT not in). That is the heritage here. This is not the first time such issues have arisen. We had a city idiot from Texas kill 32 buffalo from a neighboring ranch because they came onto his property. I believe many Coloradoans called for the death penalty in that case. He had no idea that it was HIS responsibility to fence the herd out.

Less than 1 in 6 people here are native thus there is a HUGE lack of understanding of the laws. When you are in public space or any open range you must expect livestock.

For a rancher here to buy sufficient land to hold a herd would be impossible. It takes between 5-10 acres of land to support 1 animal (horse or cow) and almost 85% of the state is owned by the government (military bases, national parks, indian reservations and other).

I, for one, am tired of outsiders coming here and telling us what to do. Come here, live here, but shut the _____-up and learn the laws or go somewhere else and leave me alone.

CatOnLap
Nov. 30, 2009, 11:10 AM
I, for one, am tired of outsiders coming here and telling us what to do. Come here, live here, but shut the _____-up and learn the laws or go somewhere else and leave me alone.

wow. I am hoping you are a full blooded member of some american aboriginal tribe, if any full blooded members still exist. Otherwise, your attitude is unjustified.

Culture is not static. If most of your population is immigrants, your culture is going to change and rather rapidly. Get used to it. Such incidents show us where the cultures are clashing rather than blending.

Really hard to assign responsibility in such cases.

Yes, the ranchers have ceded most of their privately owned land to government reserves and parks in the last 100 years and deserve some concession to continue to use the land. Yes that land is now open for public use. Yes, users should be aware of many dangers that lurk including wild animals who were not in the area due to the presence of the livestock guard dogs. Yes, if you are using public land, you should know what to do in case of wild animal or dog attack. Yes the race organizer should have posted the race and sent notice to the livestock users of the land well in advance.

And if it had been a horse and rider instead of a biker?
First, I hope horse riders are more aware of the habits of animals than a city dwelling machine rider is. And has trained their horse to deal with the situation. And maybe carries safety equipment like bear spray if needed.

But really, it's less likely to happen to a horse rider who is travelling at lower speed on a livestock animal and probably knows better than to ride at speed directly into a herd of grazing animals, which is likely to scatter and stampede them. Seems to me the bikers lacked the education necessary to travel in such country.

There may be an improvement in attitude among mountain bikers but I haven't noticed. Bikers are supposed to yield to pedestrians, horse riders, etc, in our city. So there I am, taking a rest midway up a forest hill near my home, on a public trail last week, with my large puppy. I hear the telltale swooshing of a bike approaching and before I can clear the narrow trail, a mountain biker nearly lands on top of me. In order to avoid me and the dog, she puts her bike into the bushes, and is scratched and muddied by her abrupt landing, which leads to a stream of language I won't repeat, but basically asking me what I was doing in her way. She was lucky I am responsible about my dog and didn't just drop the leash when she narrowly missed us, because the dog clearly perceived the threat in her voice towards me and had raised her hackles. What happened to having courtesy for other trail users?

fooler
Nov. 30, 2009, 11:39 AM
I, for one, am tired of outsiders coming here and telling us what to do. Come here, live here, but shut the _____-up and learn the laws or go somewhere else and leave me alone.

This a sentiment shared by 'natives or mostly natives' of each state I have lived. If you move to a new area, learn about it before deciding it isn't as 'perfect' as where you used to live. A lesson I learned at a very early age when our family visited 'my perfect old home town' - it wasn't quite a perfect as I remembered.

Dooner
Nov. 30, 2009, 05:22 PM
WOW--harsh. Does everyone understand that these dogs continued mauling her even after she was huddled on the ground, presenting no threat to "their" sheep, and probably would have killed her if the other people hadn't come along? I know nothing about sheepdogs, but I know that most fighting dogs are not people aggressive, and question whether these dogs should have been as vicious as they were.

AFAIK I've lived here for the same % of my life that Reed has, and for nearly as many years, but find the "shut-up or leave" attitude unhelpful, and actually tend to apply it to the "natives" that bitch about newcomers.

I would love to close the (state) boarders, but it ain't happening.

Casey09
Nov. 30, 2009, 07:07 PM
Dooner wrote
Does everyone understand that these dogs continued mauling her even after she was huddled on the ground, presenting no threat to "their" sheep, and probably would have killed her if the other people hadn't come along? I know nothing about sheepdogs, but I know that most fighting dogs are not people aggressive, and question whether these dogs should have been as vicious as they were.

I am certainly no expert on Livestock Guardian Dogs, but my understanding is that the bond to the flock - not to people - and they have been bred to be aggressive to anything that threatens the flock. A biker would probably appear to be very threatening to them, not to mention the fact that bikers can trigger prey drive in dogs. Therefore, it doesn't necessarily surprise me that the dogs attacked. Working LGDs are typically not socialized to people and many of these breeds are quite aggressive.
It is a shame. Frankly, I think that the dogs were doing what they were bred to do - but I would be reluctant to put dogs like that on public land in a situation where tourists or bikers could approach them. I understand that a working rancher probably definitely views things differently than I do, but the dogs can blend into the flock and I don't think that a lot of people know the dangers. If they get bit, the fact is that it is the dogs - not the people - who are going to suffer the consequences (after the bite, that is - I seriously doubt that this woman would make the same decision in hindsight). I understand the heritage argument, and LGDs can be very valuable in protecting livestock. However, the organizers of the bike rides or other outdoor activities are probably going to have to figure out some way to make sure that tourists don't come in contact with them. Wherever you go, the way that people keep and manage dogs has changed a great deal - because of the potential for liability. It wasn't that long ago when family dogs roamed the area that I live in. I see much less of it now. As more people moved in and built new neighborhoods, they didn't tolerate the free-roaming dogs any longer. I am not suggesting ending LGDs, I think that this incident will lead to changes.

wendy
Nov. 30, 2009, 08:00 PM
Less than 1 in 6 people here are native thus there is a HUGE lack of understanding of the laws. When you are in public space or any open range you must expect livestock.

For a rancher here to buy sufficient land to hold a herd would be impossible. It takes between 5-10 acres of land to support 1 animal (horse or cow) and almost 85% of the state is owned by the government (military bases, national parks, indian reservations and other).

I, for one, am tired of outsiders coming here and telling us what to do. Come here, live here, but shut the _____-up and learn the laws or go somewhere else and leave me alone.
um hello? I was born n raised in the western open ranges, and am very familiar with the destruction ranchers inflict upon public land with their livestock. Talk about feeling "entitled" it's the ranchers who are too cheap to buy their own land and think public land is theirs who are the problem out there. When you've seen public land turned into wasteland from sheep, seen wild animals slaughtered to get them off the land so the ranchers can use the forage to feed their livestock instead, it's hard to feel sympathetic.

Woodland
Nov. 30, 2009, 08:53 PM
Seriously? Urban sprawl strikes again! :no::no::no:

BeeHoney
Nov. 30, 2009, 10:04 PM
This is why all livestock should be raised in enclosed factory farms, so the general public isn't troubled or inconvenienced by any of the realities of raising livestock. :( :(

Most people nowadays live very removed from animals, farming or livestock. Kids grow up in pristine suburban subdivisions with manicured yards and maybe a couple cats or dogs. Probably this lady did too. Animals like cows, sheep, pigs and working dogs are a complete novelty. Not only that, people have in their heads a misguided fairytale idea that must come from children's books that all farm animals are or SHOULD be perfectly sweet and tame. And if not, they are shocked. (I've seen this in action right on my own farm when visitors who know nothing about horses invariably march right up to a stallion and even hold their kids up over the hotwire to pet him even if I'm saying right as they are doing it "HE BITES!")

It puts a lot of stress on farmers to be surrounded by a public that has no clue. It's very sad to me that farming and farm animals have moved out of the sphere of everyday life, but pressures like this are only going to fuel this trend.

Cloverbarley
Nov. 30, 2009, 11:42 PM
Out of interest, does anyone know how much these ranchers pay for grazing permits/leases?

Working LGDs are generally not people friendly and they view humans no differently to anything else which they deem are a threat to their livestock.

An awful accident but what in the world were these people thinking by riding straight through a flock anyway? Regardless of whether there were dogs or not, the potential for an accident is certainly heightened by doing something so silly.

Beam Me Up
Dec. 1, 2009, 01:23 AM
I wonder if it wasn't the racing situation? If you go hiking/riding/biking independently you tend to have a greater awareness of your surroundings and take responsibility for them. You know that cars might not stop for you, animals could approach you, etc.

Racing, you just kind of get a tunnel vision and follow the pack and presume that the route is clear.

(This is my experience from running at least, assume biking is similar)

I guess that is a type of entitlement, but maybe not as much of an SES statement as it's being read as.

It's too bad that on this day both activities could not share the public land.

grandprixjump
Dec. 1, 2009, 01:54 AM
Wait till a defendant gets the right Ambulance Chaser, and they go after the police, because their WORKING DOGS attacked a person that was being chased by the police....
As WORKING DOGS wouldn't they need to be taught NOT TO BITE PEOPLE?
Just a thought for the DANG yuppies that get their milk out of a jug, meat out of the freezer, veggies from the Produce dept, and don't give a DAMN where it actually comes from...

Aimee Thanatogenus
Dec. 1, 2009, 02:36 AM
I'm disgusted by these suburbanites.

This sums it up:
"They don't realize you have to live like a Third World person to produce meat in the United States."

Then they behave like every inch of land, private or public is theirs for free.

When Mtn bikers or hikers just wander through my property I am so very tempted to fire warning shots over their heads AND set the dogs on them.

The suburban hunters are the worst, though. They need to just shoot each other. I sometimes just want to leave cases of beer out on the edge of my land to help them along. Either that or just paint my horses orange until the season has passed.

yellowbritches
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:28 AM
they behave like every inch of land, private or public is theirs for free.

This statement bothers me in regards with the story in question. The woman was riding in a RACE, which means she had to be on MARKED trails and follow them. That also means that she was INVITED on the land to ride there (public or private. In this case it WAS public). She was not riding across someone's farm land, she was not riding on trails that were not meant for mountain bikes. The flock of sheep ended up on the race course and she was taken down by the dogs. Shame on the race organizers for not warning the animals' owner of the race so they could move the flock. Shame on the mountain biker for behaving poorly even though the owner took responsibility. BUT, she was NOT doing anything she wasn't supposed to be doing or allowed to do (and I don't get the sense from EITHER article that she rode straight through the middle of the herd, just near it).

One other thing- mountain bikers are some of the most dedicated trail advocates (at least in my area, but I'm guessing the same holds true in Co. where it is mountain biking mecca). They work hard to fight to keep land and trails open for ALL users and on top of that are usually the ones working to keep them clear and passable for all users.

Aimee, if you have people constantly wandering on your property, you might want to figure out why it is so easy for them to do so.

arena run
Dec. 1, 2009, 08:48 AM
wow. I am hoping you are a full blooded member of some american aboriginal tribe, if any full blooded members still exist. Otherwise, your attitude is unjustified.

Culture is not static. If most of your population is immigrants, your culture is going to change and rather rapidly. Get used to it. Such incidents show us where the cultures are clashing rather than blending.
<snip>

Wow... did you not even read what she said? Culture is one thing... state laws are another.

She wants the 'implants' to please not come in and run roughshod over everything by ignoring STATE LAWS. You move to a new area you better be smart enough to educate yourself about its laws... Hello.
sylvia

RAyers
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:52 AM
Out of interest, does anyone know how much these ranchers pay for grazing permits/leases?...


In 2007, the USDA charged $1.35 per animal per month and per the federal law, "The figure is then adjusted according to three factors – current private grazing land lease rates, beef cattle prices, and the cost of livestock production." The fee is also regional in nature.

Uh, Wendy, perhaps you did not pay much attention when you were here. I hope you don't come back out here and ski. The land the ski areas are on is NOT owned by the ski areas. That, again is PUBLIC land, leased by the ski companies from the National Forest Service. Shouldn't they own their land as well, considering all the money they make and the restrictions/destruction they put in place? And owning your own land doesn't do jack. We have folks wandering across the ranch all the time, thinking that because there is no buildings that it must be open space (even with marked fences).

As for conduct on Public Open Space, mountain bikes are REQUIRED to yield to EVERYONE (pedestrians and horses) and EVERYONE is required to yield to livestock on open public spaces. That is the law/regulations/etc. Given I live right in the front range mountains I have had plenty of opportunity to meet mountain bikers. Many are very considerate of these laws and we try to be considerate of them. But I have run into too many who just ignore the rules and blast along in their own little world.

Cloverbarley
Dec. 1, 2009, 09:57 AM
In 2007, the USDA charged $1.35 per animal per month and per the federal law, "The figure is then adjusted according to three factors – current private grazing land lease rates, beef cattle prices, and the cost of livestock production." The fee is also regional in nature.


Thank you RAyers. So in essence, these ranchers pay to use this land for their livestock and presumably there are regulations about what they are allowed to do? Including running dogs with their flocks? In which case, if one really wanted to get into a law suit, then the BLM would be the establishment who are in the questionable situation, as they have taken payment and given guidelines allowing these ranchers to run dogs with their flocks?

My opinion of it all is it was an accident. Accidents happen and the woman should accept that, but hey if there is a buck to be made ... ! :no:

Trixie
Dec. 1, 2009, 10:00 AM
I wonder if it wasn't the racing situation? If you go hiking/riding/biking independently you tend to have a greater awareness of your surroundings and take responsibility for them. You know that cars might not stop for you, animals could approach you, etc.

Racing, you just kind of get a tunnel vision and follow the pack and presume that the route is clear.


She should have been paying better attention, not riding screaming into a pack of sheep well after most folks had gone home. If you’re going to be out riding anywhere – on a horse or a bike, particularly in a place as wild as Colorado – you MUST take responsibility for your surroundings. Sorry, it’s just not anyone else’s job.


BUT, she was NOT doing anything she wasn't supposed to be doing or allowed to do

Actually, um, she kind of was. The article said she had trouble during the race and CHOSE to continue riding after others had gone in (sunset), despite being offered the choice to head in with a race organizer. She may have been allowed to be there after sunset – I don’t know – but it definitely doesn’t seem like a sound decision.

This isn’t Fairfax County. She hit sheep where sheep are supposed to be, not a deer in the middle of the highway in an urban area.

The article is specific:


During the race, she was beset by problems with her bike, first a snapped chain, then a flat tire. By the time she fixed the flat, the sun was setting and the race largely over. Renee could have returned to the start with a race organizer but decided to finish the course.

If anything the race organizers, not the ranchers, should be bearing the brunt of this lawsuit. They didn’t warn the sheepherder and they permitted people to continue after dark. If this had been a pack of wolves that devoured her, they’d be getting sued, not the rancher.

Wendy, I hope that if you think ranchers should buy their own land to run large herds, you’re prepared to spend a veritable fortune to eat meat. I hope you don’t rely on other farmers, ever, to feed you. They don’t exactly make a great living.

The Legros live in a new development. They moved to Colorado to get away from urban sprawl – but part of that includes assimilating to the culture that you’re moving to, not paying to bulldoze it for MORE SPRAWL. It’s a HUGE threat to us as horsefolk as well, because these sorts don’t just learn to live in an area – they move to a new development, make demands for further development, amenities, etc, to make the place that they’re going look just like the place they left, utterly missing the fact that it was bucolic because it lacked sprawl. Unfortunately, they chase the farm operations (yes, horses too) out at the first inkling that they might not be angelic little lambs, or that farming is dangerous and smells bad.

lcw579
Dec. 1, 2009, 11:04 AM
Great post, Trixie!