Weight gain needed.

[appychik]

I've posted before... but I do need some help ;) trying to figure this all out. And I'm sorry for how long winded I am.

Here's a recent photo that shows his conformation: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JK5Okcm1E1SCo3_AOHLtfg?authkey=Gv1sRgCNKwztXf08S_P g&feat=directlink

I've been struggling to get some weight on Gus since about August. He's a recent (February '09) diagnosee of Insulin Resistance. Current bloodwork taken in September showed that (at that given moment) his IR was under control.

Gus currently gets 1.5lb of TC Senior, 1.5lb of TC Lite and ~25 to 30lb of grass hay daily. He's also out on pasture 24/7, but as you can from the photo above, there isn't much left of the pasture - and it's been like that all summer, for the most part.

I'm wondering what I can do to get those few extra pounds on. The photo above is deceiving, as Gus's ribs are visible (and easily palatable too) under all that winter hair. A lot of what I'm seeing is muscle loss, but he is so much skinnier then he's been in a while (see this photo from the fall of '08: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nAzw0GIgy56q6_OG9glcEg?feat=directlink).

So, IR horses can't have fat... so that rules out Cool Calories. Can I add flax (like Omega Horseshine) to his diet? Or how about adding a pre/probiotic? I do plan on upping his TC Senior to 2lbs and decreasing the TC Lite to 1lb. But, what can I do to get more weight on?

Any suggestions?

ETA: He does get beet pulp occassionally, when I'm out there to feed it. He'll get 1-1.5lbs (dry weight) about 2-3x a week. BO won't feed it, so even premeasuring it and bagging it is not an option.

[sdlbredfan]

Yes to flax, and add beet pulp to his TC meals. There is a lot of great info on website www.ecirhorse.com

[appychik]

Yes to flax, and add beet pulp to his TC meals. There is a lot of great info on website www.ecirhorse.com

Thanks. I'll edit my original post... but it's a no-go to adding regular BP to his meals. I've been feeding 1-1.5lb (dry weight) when I'm out, but he only gets that 2-3x a week. BO won't feed it, even if I premeasure it out and all. It's just too much work for her and that's that.

[atr]

Can you add alfalfa?

Pellets if not long stem hay.

I get the small pellets that don't need to be soaked or have anything fancy done with them, as opposed to the large, rock-like cubes...

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=appychik;4524588]

Gus currently gets 1.5lb of TC Senior, 1.5lb of TC Lite and ~25 to 30lb of grass hay daily.

what is the RFV of the hay? you have to know that to know how to help him....does he eat every bite of 25 pounds of grass hay a day ? And remind me isn't he like 16 hh ??

[Tamara in TN]

Gus currently gets 1.5lb of TC Senior, 1.5lb of TC Lite and ~25 to 30lb of grass hay daily. He's also out on pasture 24/7, but as you can from the photo above, there isn't much left of the pasture - and it's been like that all summer, for the most part.

why did you stop the alfalfa ??

FWIW, he's getting 2lbs Triple Crown Lite, 1lb Triple Senior and 1/2lb alfalfa pellets. In addition to that, he's getting half a bale of hay (roughly) daily. The weight of that has to be in the neighborhood of 20-25lbs (per half bale). He's also getting his supps, which include MSM, HA, lysine and magnesium.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4477588#post4477588

[blaeberry001]

If you have access to Soyabean flakes they are very good can make your horse a little hot not all just some. Will be easy for the BO to add. Sugar beet is a wonderful extra can you not pay the BO a little extra to feed it.:D

[sdlbredfan]

On the 'BO won't feed it, even if I premeasure it out and all. It's just too much work for her and that's that' comment, this is another indication the universe is giving you that you probably need to move the horse away from BF's/fiance's family place. In the meantime, you can increase the TC Senior and/or add TC Complete.

[appychik]

why did you stop the alfalfa ??

FWIW, he's getting 2lbs Triple Crown Lite, 1lb Triple Senior and 1/2lb alfalfa pellets. In addition to that, he's getting half a bale of hay (roughly) daily. The weight of that has to be in the neighborhood of 20-25lbs (per half bale). He's also getting his supps, which include MSM, HA, lysine and magnesium.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4477588#post4477588

LOL. Alfalfa stopped cause the BO ran out ;). I need to see when I go to the feed store next week if they carry the pellets. My local feed store (NOT where I buy the TC stuff) only carries the cubes. I'd rather not deal with cubes... too much work to soak, especially in MN in the winter :yes:. And the BO (my future MIL) was kind enough to just feed the pellets to Gus with no additional costs. He was, up until the last two weeks, getting 1/2lb daily of alfalfa pellets. He hasn't been showing any adverse issues to alfalfa, for what that's worth.

what is the RFV of the hay? you have to know that to know how to help him....does he eat every bite of 25 pounds of grass hay a day ? And remind me isn't he like 16 hh ??

I *still* need to test the dang hay. My fiance is perfectly fine with me doing that, I've just been too lazy to go thru the bales and get samples (I don't have access to a hay corer).

And, no, he probably doesn't get ever bite of that 25lbs, as he's turned out with my other horse who's a fatty. Their bales probably weight somewhere between 50 and 60 pounds... and the boys get a bale of hay daily right now.

Gus is 16h. You remembered correctly.

On the 'BO won't feed it, even if I premeasure it out and all. It's just too much work for her and that's that' comment, this is another indication the universe is giving you that you probably need to move the horse away from BF's/fiance's family place. In the meantime, you can increase the TC Senior and/or add TC Complete.

Unfortunately, many of the barns I've been at in the past won't feed beet pulp. Even though people say it isn't a hassle, there are more steps involved. There is no access to a freezer/fridge at the barn and she doesn't have the time to spend soaking beet pulp in afternoons before she feeds.

I don't think that I need to move him just because she won't feed BP ;).

But... I am planning on upping the TC Senior, again. I ultimately want to get to about 3-4lbs of that and probably drop the TC Lite. Would he even need that if he's at 4lb TC Senior?

[Fharoah]

Rice bran, cool calories, alfalfa blend.

[Tamara in TN]

And, no, he probably doesn't get ever bite of that 25lbs, as he's turned out with my other horse who's a fatty. Their bales probably weight somewhere between 50 and 60 pounds... and the boys get a bale of hay daily right now.
Gus is 16h. You remembered correctly.
But... I am planning on upping the TC Senior, again. I ultimately want to get to about 3-4lbs of that and probably drop the TC Lite. Would he even need that if he's at 4lb TC Senior?

from Triple Crown themselves:
FEEDING DIRECTIONS:

Triple Crown Senior is designed for horses that have difficulty consuming hay and traditional horse feeds in pelleted or textured form due to damaged or worn teeth. The nutrient concentration of Triple Crown Senior has also been adjusted in order to provide a greater allowance to older and other metabolically challenged horses that sometimes experience difficulty in digesting and/or metabolizing normal feedstuffs, minerals and vitamins.

* If your horse can eat hay: Provide good quality hay and/or pasture, salt and fresh, clean water on a free choice basis. Adjust the amount of Triple Crown Senior fed on a daily basis in order to maintain the horse's body condition at a moderate level.Begin with approximately 6 pounds of Triple Crown Senior per day and then adjust up or down as needed after 2 to 4 weeks in order to maintain desired body condition. Do not feed more than 5 pounds of Triple Crown Senior at a single meal. Allow 3 to 4 hours between meals when feeding 4 to 5 pounds of Triple Crown Senior at a single meal.

* If your horse has damaged or worn teeth and cannot eat hay: Triple Crown Senior can be fed as the sole feed for your horse. Provide salt and fresh, clean water on a free choice basis. Adjust the amount of Triple Crown Senior fed on a daily basis in order to maintain the horse's body condition at a moderate level. Begin with approximately 12 to 15 pounds of Triple Crown Senior per day and then adjust up or down as needed after 2 to 4 weeks in order to maintain desired body condition. Do not feed more than 5 pounds of Triple Crown Senior at a single meal. Allow 3 to 4 hours between meals when feeding 4 to 5 pounds of Triple Crown Senior at a single meal. It is advisable that good quality hay be made available to your horse if he/she is able to ingest it. If your horses are unable to ingest any hay at all, then water should be added to Triple Crown Senior at the rate of approximately 1 cup of water per 2 to 3 pounds of Triple Crown Senior 10 to 15 minutes prior to feeding. The amount of water added to Triple Crown Senior can be adjusted to meet the desires of the individual horse.


now, I have never fed TC of any kind (I'm a Purina gal,sorry TC;)) BUT this is how TC has designed this feed to help your horse...being bullied from hay = no hay...you must feed it how it is designed to be fed or honestly you give him no help

I have seen I think posts of your re: blankets...if any horse needed a blanket to maintain a weight in the face of cold weather I think it'd be yours:yes:

best

[Hampton Bay]

You can feed a lot more of the Sr than 1.5lb. I was feeding it at about 10lb a day to a lactating mare, in addition to two big scoops a day of SafeChoice.

Why do you say that IR horses cannot have fat? I have never heard that, plus your TC Senior is quite high in fat. My IR mare gets 5 cups a day of rice bran, and that helps her keep up some weight. It's high in fat and protein, and will balance out alfalfa nicely. I've had no issues with it or adding oil either :confused:

And no, I don't think the refusal to soak BP is a deal-breaker for your boarding situation either. Very few boarding barns will soak BP. Plus, alfalfa pellets are easy to add, and they work well too.

My first thing though would be to increase the TC Senior significantly. I would start at the 6lb that they have suggested, and then add a couple pounds of alfalfa pellets to that too. Then if he still hasn't picked up any weight in a couple weeks, start adding some rice bran and a probiotic.

[blue&blond]

Four things that I would do.

Alfalfa pellets

TC Rice Bran (It's granulated and doesn't need to be mixed with water like the power rice bran.)

Blanket at night

Meals fed with him separated from all other horses.

[appychik]

Not entirely sure why IR horses can't have fat. I "googled" IR horses and fat and came across this archieved post from '07: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-83683.html. It really doesn't go into detail as to why IR horses can't have fat... but I know I've read it somewhere, maybe on the Equine Cushing group?

I'd love to be able to give him his Cool Calories again. It worked wonders before (but that was before we knew about his IR).

As for the TC Senior... the TC rep suggested starting with a couple pounds and going from there. That's why I'm just now upping his grain (we started at 2.5lb TC Lite, the switched to 1lb TC Senior/2lb TC Lite, then 1.5 TC Senior/1.5lb TC Lite). The plan is to get to 3-4lb TC Senior and little to no TC Lite...

The other hard part is that Gus is fed once a day. He's grained separately, but hay is thrown out and both eat off it. It is tossed into separate piles, so both boys can eat without having to technically "share". However, because he's fed just once a day, he can only eat 5lb of concentrate/meal... or that's what I've read anyways. So, that's the catch.

Gus is blanketed :winkgrin:. Lotsa threads about that, but he's been blanketed for the last 10 years, so I'm not about to change that anytime soon.

So, I guess I'll definitely up the TC Senior and I'll look into getting alfalfa pellets again... but does anyone know for sure why IR horses can't have fat? It'd be so much easier to just give him the CC.

[deltawave]

Why can't IR horses have fat? :confused: Fat is by far the most calorie-dense thing you can feed (ethanol is more so, but not practical for horse nutrition, LOL) and rather than worry about how much sugar or starch or NSC or whatever is in this or that feed or supplement, why not just give him a couple of cups of oil? I have lots and lots of diabetic/IR patients and unless they have huge obesity or cholesterol problems I don't limit their intake of healthy fats. In fact, a lot of them do extraordinarily well on the so-called "low carb" diets, which are often quite high in fats. If you have a horse that needs to gain, calories are the answer, and I can't fathom why fat calories would be harmful. Cool Calories is a waste of money--you're paying for a lot of filler, a lot of labeling, and a modest amount of fat. There are probably a few hundred calories in a scoop, and a horse cannot make calories out of thin air or a supplement, no matter what you call it. Just feed the critter some corn oil! :yes:

[appychik]

Why can't IR horses have fat? :confused: Fat is by far the most calorie-dense thing you can feed (ethanol is more so, but not practical for horse nutrition, LOL) and rather than worry about how much sugar or starch or NSC or whatever is in this or that feed or supplement, why not just give him a couple of cups of oil? I have lots and lots of diabetic/IR patients and unless they have huge obesity or cholesterol problems I don't limit their intake of healthy fats. In fact, a lot of them do extraordinarily well on the so-called "low carb" diets, which are often quite high in fats. If you have a horse that needs to gain, calories are the answer, and I can't fathom why fat calories would be harmful. Cool Calories is a waste of money--you're paying for a lot of filler, a lot of labeling, and a modest amount of fat. There are probably a few hundred calories in a scoop, and a horse cannot make calories out of thin air or a supplement, no matter what you call it. Just feed the critter some corn oil! :yes:

Does corn oil freeze? In like negative A BAGILLION degrees? In Minnesota? In the winter? :winkgrin:

[equineartworks]

Appy I struggled with Paco's weight and it seemed the more TC I gave him the skinnier he got. We tried pulp...God, we tried everything :lol:

Long story short, switched to Strategy and oil...the weight came on steady and now he looks like the easy keeper he was. TC was just not his friend.

Definitely give oil a shot. Start with a bit at a time and work up.

[appychik]

Appy I struggled with Paco's weight and it seemed the more TC I gave him the skinnier he got. We tried pulp...God, we tried everything :lol:

Long story short, switched to Strategy and oil...the weight came on steady and now he looks like the easy keeper he was. TC was just not his friend.

Definitely give oil a shot. Start with a bit at a time and work up.

Thanks. I guess it's worth a shot... but... it's gotta stay in an unheated barn. Not sure if it'll freeze or not ;).

ETA: I guess it will freeze, but the temperatures aren't making sense. I've read at 20* C, which is like 68* F... can't be possible ;). Uggh

[LauraKY]

Sorry, you need to figure out how to feed at least two meals per day. You are just asking for colic. I won't feed more than 4lbs at a meal. If they need more, they get more meals. We've feed up to 4 to 5 times a day for a horse that needs it. I sort of have to agree, you may have to change barns. Sounds like your current barn is OK for easy keepers, but a hard keeper...not so much.

[Hampton Bay]

Well, the 4/5lb per feeding rule really isn't hard and fast. Does he eat slowly? My big mare REALLY takes her time with any kind of feed, even grains. I can give her literally 20lb of alfalfa cubes/TC Senior/SafeChoice, all soaked and mushy, with oil on top, and she will spend 2 or 3 hours eating it. That's what I did when she was lactating. So 10lb of Senior at a time would be no biggie for her because it woudl take her forever and a freakin day to eat it all.

I would not worry about the fat.

[appychik]

He takes about 20 minutes to eat the mush... (so the TC Lite & TC Senior). When I make up some beet pulp and add that into the mix (1-1.5lb dry weight) it'll take about 30-35 minutes for him to eat.

So, he's a relatively FAST eater. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable giving more then 5lb concentrate/meal. And there is no other way (read: absolutely NOT possible) to feed him an extra meal or two right now. When I have my own place (or move closer to the fiance's family) I'll probably be able to get out multiple times a day to feed... so that won't be an issue then. Just can't happen now. Too many different circumstances factoring in.

[birdsong]

Unfortunately, many of the barns I've been at in the past won't feed beet pulp. Even though people say it isn't a hassle, there are more steps involved. There is no access to a freezer/fridge at the barn and she doesn't have the time to spend soaking beet pulp in afternoons before she feeds.

Unfortunately this is entirely untrue that it has to be presoaked or even soaked for a long while.
I toss it in the bottom of the bucket and put the regular feed on top..then stick in the water hose and stir while its filling to the top of the feed.
Then I pour it into the feed container....it swells immediately upon touching the water..and if there is excess water my guys slurp it up happily. I have done this for years.
Try it and maybe you can convince your BO its really NOT any trouble at all!

You aren't going to feed him Alf. cubes are you? They REALLY need to be soaked. (maybe I misread)

[LauraKY]

For the 4lb rule, I'm really talking about feeding once a day. Just asking for trouble, IMO. I'm sure lots of horses do just fine, but, you never know. I do have one that should be fed three times a day, I feed two because he also saves enough for lunch or a night time snack (depending on turnout schedule). All depends on the horse, of course.

[CoolMeadows]

He's really not taking in a lot of calories for a horse that needs weight going into winter. I agree that adding a second meal about equal to the first would be a good idea, and maybe a warmer blanket to keep him cozy.


I'm wondering what I can do to get those few extra pounds on. The photo above is deceiving, as Gus's ribs are visible (and easily palatable too) under all that winter hair.
Listen, I love ribs as much as the next girl, but this could be part of your problem. Quit nibbling on your horse.

[appychik]

Listen, I love ribs as much as the next girl, but this could be part of your problem. Quit nibbling on your horse.

LOL... I meant palpable :winkgrin:.

I know you don't have to really soak beet pulp... but, the only beet pulp I can find around here is the stuff with molasses added in. And, I'd rather soak/rinse that then just add water and go.

I'll have to check around some more (yet again) to see if I can find molasses-free beet pulp. It's worth a shot to try doing that... but ultimately I want to make things as pain-free as possible. And my BO is very old-school (read: not open to new ideas).

I've mentioned before, but Gus does not hurt in the wardrobe department... he's got PLENTY of blankets. Unfortunately the weather has been crazy, so he's still running around in just a sheet (as BO won't do anything with the blankets - that's a whole 'nother thread). Once the temps stay steadily in the 30's, I'll be bumping that up to a lite/midweight turnout (180-220g fill).

[chaltagor]

How do I improve my horse's situation? Oh, BTW, I can't change anything about it. So how do I fix it? Without changing anything. Help!

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229822

[ddashaq]

Thanks. I guess it's worth a shot... but... it's gotta stay in an unheated barn. Not sure if it'll freeze or not ;).

ETA: I guess it will freeze, but the temperatures aren't making sense. I've read at 20* C, which is like 68* F... can't be possible ;). Uggh

I used to live in Iowa which gets pretty darn cold, and the oil did not freeze, but it did gel. Instead of pouring, it sort of plopped.

You may wish to consider whether this barn is a good fit for your horse. Sometimes the barns that are perfect for the human are not so great for the horse. I will not tell you whether or not this is the case with you and Gus, but it might be worth thinking about.

[appychik]

I used to live in Iowa which gets pretty darn cold, and the oil did not freeze, but it did gel. Instead of pouring, it sort of plopped.

You may wish to consider whether this barn is a good fit for your horse. Sometimes the barns that are perfect for the human are not so great for the horse. I will not tell you whether or not this is the case with you and Gus, but it might be worth thinking about.

Thanks... about the oil plopping out. I'll have to try a bottle to see if it works, definitely won't be out much money either way.

As far as this barn fitting Gus. It's better then where he was at. Old barn was a full-care facility where I still lesson at. Gus boarded there for 7 of the 10 years I've had him (other three were at a full-care barn in GA). He was always in an in/out situation. I thought that was what was best for Gus... but it wasn't.

The old barn would not change his feed when he was diagnosed with insulin resistance... even when I offered to purchase it myself, baggie, etc (and I was not asking for a discount, whatsoever). Even my vet recommended a diet change. Ultimately, that's why I moved (that and the fact that I couldn't get him sound, so he was retiring).

Prior to the IR diagnosis... we've been dealing with stifle issues for YEARS. Vet recommended PRIVATE turnout. BO wouldn't accommodate that, which is understanding... to a point. She kept changing the horse that Gus was turned out with, to the point that he reinjured himself 3 different times while rehabbing from a torn CCL in his stifle. And Gus is typically a bit of a rough horse in turnout... which is why we kept having issues with turnout. Cause when he was finally okay with the dynamics between him and his buddy she'd change things up again.

Moved to where he's at now... and everything is so much better. He's out with Gringo, my other horse, who can be a bully but is generally a good boy. Because Gus is out 24/7 he's able to keep moving and all his stifle issues are basically a non-issue now. We'll see how the winter goes, but in general (despite the weight issue) he's in better shape then he's been in years.

Where I live... either you pay dearly for what you got, or it's a dump. In general, I love where my boys are. Gringo is thriving. Gus is doing better, but we're having conflict of opinions about his weight and what to do. BO is old school and isn't open to new ideas (as is my fiance). That's where my issues are...

Anyways, moving isn't an option until I get my own place. Everywhere else is not in my budget. As easy as it is to tell someone to move, it's not that easy to do. I work full time and have a weird shift as it is.

I think I'll try upping the TC Senior, again, and add in either oil or Cool Calories (depending on if the oil freezes or not). I'm also going to find a local source for alfalfa pellets... or try to.

Thanks everyone for their helpful advice. I appreciate it.

[arnika]

Based on you not being able to change:
1.) how often he gets fed,
2.) who he gets fed with,
3.) how much of a blanket he gets to wear,
the only thing it seems you can change is the actual feed.

If he is showing muscle loss as well as fat, he is not getting nearly enough protein. Instead of grass hay he needs higher protein hay, meaning legume, usually alfalfa. Small pellets are fine but he has to actually get them. Not just sometimes and not just part of them when the fat horse pushes him away and eats his feed. No wonder he is fat.

Rice bran, flax seed. Both will work, rice bran works much better and he will not shiver away this winter. Is it really not cold up in MN after Thanksgiving? My parents are from Iowa and it's very cold up there already.


ETA: You and I crossed posted and I can fully understand the barn issues. It can be quite difficult to find reliable sources for feed sometimes(you wouldn't think that would happen in farm country but they are all tractor/combines anymore) but you have to do what's necessary for your horse if you're going to keep him. Feed prices have gone sky high over the past two years which is also a problem but he needs the calories and protein, period.

[appychik]

Based on you not being able to change:
1.) how often he gets fed,
2.) who he gets fed with,
3.) how much of a blanket he gets to wear,
the only thing it seems you can change is the actual feed.

If he is showing muscle loss as well as fat, he is not getting nearly enough protein. Instead of grass hay he needs higher protein hay, meaning legume, usually alfalfa. Small pellets are fine but he has to actually get them. Not just sometimes and not just part of them when the fat horse pushes him away and eats his feed. No wonder he is fat.

Rice bran, flax seed. Both will work, rice bran works much better and he will not shiver away this winter. Is it really not cold up in MN after Thanksgiving? My parents are from Iowa and it's very cold up there already.


ETA: You and I crossed posted and I can fully understand the barn issues. It can be quite difficult to find reliable sources for feed sometimes(you wouldn't think that would happen in farm country but they are all tractor/combines anymore) but you have to do what's necessary for your horse if you're going to keep him. Feed prices have gone sky high over the past two years which is also a problem but he needs the calories and protein, period.

But the hard part is he's got IR. I HAVE to watch the NSC of feeds... my goal is under 10%, but the TC Senior is higher at just under 12%.

His weight has not decreased since he first moved to the new barn in May... it's holding the same, as is the muscle/fat, but it should be improving.

I can change blankets, but only when I'm there... so, I plan ahead. I'm thinking about putting on his heavier lite-weight turnout, but not sure if the weather with be decent for a few days or what (I watch the weather channel like a hawk).

He is grained separately... but hay is fed with the other horse, though in separate piles. He is no longer contiunally chased off his hay. The boys have worked out their differences, so each eat off a pile for a while before rotating piles.

So, I do have control over #2 and #3, to an extent.

I'll look into rice bran too, but I need to figure out the NSC of it (if that information is available) first.

As far as temps go, it's normally quite cold here by now (like wearing a heavy blanket). But we've been having October temps all month, so it's been actually quite mild - and I'm in central MN. Temps in the 40s-50s during the day, evenings in the high 20s, low 30s for the most part. It's just now starting to cool off a lot.

[ddashaq]

Appychik, I certainly understand the barn issue. When I was in Iowa, it was not a case of finding the best barn, rather is was finding the least bad barn. My horse wound up being on self care while I paid full care prices in two out of the three barns that I had him at because it was actually less stressful for both of us that way. Moving down here has been bliss-- I pay for full care and that is what I receive. My original horse is doing fabulously and my new horse seems to be settling well.

On the topic of oil, it has done WONDERS for my TB who crashed a bit weight wise when his feet blew up right after I got him. He is getting about 1/3 cup per feeding and has put about 85% of the weight he lost back on. I hope that you find something that works for him!

[Hampton Bay]

IR is really not the huge deal that you seem to be making it out to be. Sure some horses might be more sensitive than others, but once it is under control it is not this big huge deal.

If you cannot have sugars, and you cannot feed fat, and he can only have 3lb of feed once a day, then no wonder he is not gaining weight.

It's really as simple as more calories. He's not getting enough. So you have to add more. Try oil, try alfalfa pellets, try rice bran (which is fed in such a small amount and is so high in fat and protein that you really don't need to worry about the sugar level). But you cannot expect him to gain weight when you are providing him with such a small amount of concentrate only once a day.

[arnika]

His weight has not decreased since he first moved to the new barn in May... it's holding the same, as is the muscle/fat, but it should be improving.


Not to be ugly or anything but since May it has been the grassy warm season. If his weight is just holding steady and he's still thin (as in ribby) he'll be losing weight soon just from expending the calories to keep his body temperature normal. It is always necessary to up a horse's calories once colder weather kicks in, even with an easy keeper.

Wishing you and Gus the best this winter.

[AnotherRound]

So what do yOU want to do, oP? You don't want to change his feed, or increase his caolorie intake, so wht are you looking for from this board?

Personally, I would double his feed and add some oil. No, it won't freeze, it just gets thick and the horse doesn't care.

IR doesn't mean no fat, whereever you thought you read that you were dead wrong. IR means no sugars, no carbs (because the body changes the carbs into sugars). Big difference. Get a clue.

[Sithly]

Ah, jeez. Here we go again. ;)

Appy, I'm in MN. I'm like an hour south of you, but it's just as cold. Here's what you do:

1. Buy a bottle of oil.
2. Buy a 1 oz. pumper (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/carlisle-cm1035-1-2-or-1-oz-pump-for-cold-master-cover-cm1033p/712CM1035.html) at Fleet Farm in the dairy section.
3. Apply pumper to bottle.
4. Pump oil onto grain.

Done. So easy, even your M-I-L can do it! Works in sub-zero temperatures!

[HighFlyinBey++]

Is this where the "fat is bad for IR horses" line of thinking comes from http://www.equinemedsurg.com/ir3.html

B. Fat/Oil Supplements

1. Do NOT use in Insulin Resistance horses.
A study by the University of Kentucky's Dept. of Veterinary Science in 2002 by Dr. Fitzgerald showed that an infusion of fat actually induced Insulin Resistance in horses in less than 2 hours time. This can lead to a Laminitis trigger. High fat diets can cause a crisis.
2. High Insulin levels already are promoting fat which in turn release toxins to further cause more and more Insulin. This cycle is not helped by promoting more fat with a high fat diet.
3. What to avoid:
* NO OILS - No corn oil, no rice bran oil, no wheat germ oil.
* NO RICE BRAN - two big reasons
1. According to a USDA study by Dr. Marshal in his 1994 Rice Science Study (465 page report), it is approximately 16% fat. This is going to promote fat on your horse, add weight, and cause problems.
2. Rice bran is loaded with starch. Dr. Marshal has it at 16% and Equi-Analytical Labs at almost a 20% average. This is 5 to 7 times more than timothy/orchard hay or beet pulp. Rice bran has an NSC level of about 25 which is extremely high.
3. Rice bran's NSC is very close to that of Wheat bran (30). Both need to be strongly avoided in these horses.

4. High/increased fat is great in tying up horses, EPSSM, horses needing weight, but not in Insulin Resistance.
5. On the bag of ingredients of many low carbo, low fat feeds you may see rice bran. DO NOT panic. They put in an extremely small amount for flavor. These products have low NSC values (10%) and low fat values (3-5%). The main point is not to add more of rice bran or wheat bran to the diet.

Is this applicable only to IR horses that need to lose weight, unlike Gus who needs to gain weight?? If not, then it would seem that increasing the amount of a low carbohydrate (low NSC), high protein, and low fat complete feed is the safest way to go. It would also be easy for the fMIL to feed--just scoop & go. No muss, fuss or bother for anyone.

[EquineLVR]

Corn oil and Ultium..

[clairdelune]

I'm in SD,and took in a very emaciated rescue a couple of years ago.and what really worked was soybean meal,I had to order it from the elevator,but it really worked well,my vet also recommended it,it is the soymeal without the fat extruded,Horses love it,and I purchased it from the local elevator,it did have to be ordered and is very oily so you have to store it in a plastic container of some sort.

[Ghazzu]

Your hay is of unknown quality. I'm sure it's providing a fair amount of calories, but the pound and a half of TC Sr. and TC Lite you're feeding is providing roughly 1% (that's *one* percent) of your horse's energy requirements...
You can't put on weight unless you feed energy in excess of requirements.

[deltawave]

1. Do NOT use in Insulin Resistance horses.
A study by the University of Kentucky's Dept. of Veterinary Science in 2002 by Dr. Fitzgerald showed that an infusion of fat actually induced Insulin Resistance in horses in less than 2 hours time. This can lead to a Laminitis trigger. High fat diets can cause a crisis.

So don't give the fat IV. Give it orally. :rolleyes: The leap between an experimental study infusing fat intravenously and its effects on blood tests and the statement that "high fat diets can cause a crisis" is gargantuan.

Problem: skinny horse. Solution: more calories. Most efficient source of calories: fat. Or moonshine. :D

[appychik]

Well, I called around and was able to locate Manna Pro's Max-E-Glo Stabilized Rice Bran. It's 40lbs for $28.99 :eek:, and I'll be picking some up this afternoon - as it's pellets and should be easier to feed then the other options (not that I'm not ruling them out either).

So, how much rice bran do I start with? And what amount do I aim for? The website has everthing listed in kg/g type stuff and I can't figure it out. See: http://www.maxeglo.com/FeedGuidelines Gus weights just under 1100lbs, but should be closer to 1200lbs ideally.

I'm also going to bump the TC Senior up to 2lb and the the TC Lite to 1lb... and then slowly increase the senior up to 3-4lbs. Gus has a sensitive stomach, so that's why I do things slowly.

[Arab/WBGirl]

If this were my horse, and it's not, I'd never play the mix up my own feed game. If you read the TC Senior bag, it says you can feed up to 5lbs per meal safely. So, again, if this were my horse, I'd feed him 5lbs of TC Senior 2x per day with all the high quality hay he would eat. No additives, no anything. Simple enough for anyone to feed. Stop with all the additives and keep it simple. TC Senior is a very good feed with everything in it your horse needs. Just add hay if you can't feed it as a complete feed. The extra 2% NSC you are seemingly concerned with is inconsequential, especially if you put it in this context: lets take 100 grams of Feed A. It has 9% NSC, so it has a total of 9 grams of NSC per 100 grams. Lets take 100 grams of Feed B. It has 11% NSC per 100 grams, so it has 11 grams of NSC per 100 grams. Now, lets just say you are feeding 4540 grams (10lbs) of Feed A. This means that it has 408.6 grams of NSC. Now lets look at Feed B. Lets take 4540 grams of Feed B (10 lbs). It has 499.4 grams of NSC. Is that extra roughly 91 grams of NSC really going to hurt your horse? Not likely. But Feed B just might help your horse if it has 2 - 3x the calories of Feed A due to increased fat/protein/fiber content. Just my two cents worth. Hope your horse does well OP and you figure out a good feeding program that suits him/her.

Dawn
P.S. Boy I really hope my math is correct especially with the metric conversions lol. I am sick today so not operating on all 8 cylinders. All of you math whizes please feel free to correct if I am off. But I think I made my point.

[Tif_Ann]

OK ... Sioux Falls here, I've responded lots. :)

First - yes, eventually the oil can "freeze". I use Health-E-Oil which is a soy based oil with vitamin E added into it for my Wobbles horse. I have never had it completely freeze but it gets pretty thick. :) The last two winters my BO has allowed me to keep it in a heated room - the wash rack at one barn, the bathroom at another. The bathroom at our current barn is also where most people store their bute, banamine, etc, things that shouldn't freeze. It's probably kept at about 60 degrees just so the pipes don't freeze. :) Is that an option?

Alternatively, with oil, before I kept it in a warm room I would surround the jug with feed as an insulation. I keep my feed in a big tub and will just hollow out a place and stick it in. Not perfect, but a bit better than sitting on top of the bin! :)

I agree with the need to feed more than once a day - ESPECIALLY in the cold. My boys would go through a single bale of hay given to them once a day in about three hours - leaving them 21 hours of nothing in their stomach and nothing digesting to help keep them warm. Digesting hay really helps horses create warmth, which lessons the need to shiver and use up calories that way. While of course a round bale would be ideal ... splitting up that bale into THREE feedings would be the best choice for a Minnesota winter. Every boarding situation I've been in has fed twice a day - morning and night - and when it's bitter, bitter cold I make a trip up there around 9-10pm to give another flake or two so they have food to get through the night. Last winter I didn't have to cuz they were on round bales, but I'm getting ready to do it this year for my stall horse who is not an easy keeper anyway!

Plus the grain/senior feed - he really needs to get more of it twice a day. Not knowing the weight of the brands you've mentioned - how much is that? Think the normal "feed" scoop or a standard size coffee can - how much of that are you giving?

Now - the IR - that makes things a bit more tough. My mother just lost a 26 yr old Cushings horse who had the kind where he couldn't keep weight on. I don't know if she or the vet every really discussed what he could or couldn't be on, but I know he was getting 4 scoops of senior feed plus 2 scoops of sweet feed per day (I think approximately 12 pounds of senior & 6 pounds of sweet?), oil, weight builder (I think, maybe cool calories), along with about a half a bale of straight alfalfa every day. I'm not sure if they threw a couple flakes of grass hay to him too - but I know his main forage was straight alfalfa. He was fed separately to make sure he got his food. He was blanketed all winter and anytime it rained and was below 50 degrees, and we STILL struggled to keep weight on him.

My 24 yr old TB we lost this spring to melanomas also did not do well on senior feed at all. We struggled to keep weight on him always too - and he was not IR. My vet actually took him off senior and said to feed him sweet feed and that made a difference. Don't know why, but the senior feed just didn't agree with him. I tried a senior vitamin once and it really affected him poorly too - he lost energy and was lethargic. Something in senior stuff just didnt' work for Rocky.

That said - again with the weight building on a hard keeper - last year Rocky was on MASSIVE amounts of food to keep his weight up while he was sick. Blanketed of course. Then he'd get a scoop of oats and a scoop of sweet feed twice a day, along with oil ... and when he was REALLY skinny he was getting two bran mashes twice a day as well - each with bran, oil, a scoop of sweet feed and peppermints. He was also on probably 8-10 flakes of 75% alfalfa mix hay every day. Our barn owner was WONDERFUL though and fed him his bran mash every single morning. She'd just add warm water and let it soak while she fed everyone else their grain, then give him his mash as she turned out the rest of them, and clean stalls until he was done and could be turned out. Then we'd come out at night and feed him his evening mash and give him more hay.

Hard keepers, especially with a health issue - are a LOT of work. I seriously think you need to look into somewhere else to board him if your soon-to-be family won't step up and help out. What exactly are you paying for if not to provide care to your horse? Alternatively, if you are paying a reduced cost and agree to the one feeding a day thing - you need to suck it up and put in the extra work that he needs. The ONLY way you are going to put weight on him is to increase his feed, feed him several times a day, and make sure he's blanketed properly for the winter.

[AnotherRound]

I know, what is the deal with all the freakin additives if she can just feed senior? Wouldn't MIL like that better? OP, your horse's stomach is not that sensitive that you can't up the amount of feed he is cu8rrently eating - he isn't getting much food. He will do betting getting enough food than adjusting to a myriad of supllements and changes and additions. So you aren't making any sense. Why won't you just increase your horse's intake with the safe food?

If you have your own plan about this to accomodate your disfunctional relatives, why are you asking this BB about suggestions? Or are you looking for the comfort of approval? Because I don't approve of your excuses for not caring for your horse correctly.

[Ruth0552]

My 32 year old large pony (14.1) eats 5 lbs of TC Senior PLUS about 1 qt. (dry) soaked beet pulp, twice a day. She will only eat about a flake of hay at any feeding. Her teeth aren't great, and her body just isn't processing hay the way it used to. At this point, the hay is more of a "horsey" thing. On the other hand, I've had her for 15 years and she has NEVER colicked (knock on wood). I'm sure you can feed more TC Senior safely.

Why bother with the TC Lite? If I were you, I would just go with the TC Senior and add as much hay stretcher as you can. If you can't add a ton of fat to his diet can you add hay pellets that have lots of fiber?

I don't know a ton about IR and at this point there are so many different opinions on many recently discovered health issues that everyone will probably change their minds in 2 years anyways.

[Ghazzu]

Add me to the list of people who are having trouble figuring out why you are feeding a calorie-controlled mix (TC Lite) when you're trying to put weight on a horse...

[FlashGordon]

Don't think this has been mentioned yet and it is anecdotal...

But I know someone on COTH with a lot of experience w/ metabolic horses did a test run of TC on her IR horses and had very poor results. Despite the fact that TC should be fine for them in theory, they all became symptomatic again when on the TC.

Just a thought. Not bashing TC at all as I swear by their Senior for my gelding. Just might be worth switching to something else to see if it makes any difference.

[SunnysideJate]

My hard keeping 32yr old gets 5# TC Senior soaked 3x a day and 4oz weight builder 2x a day. I also give him Probios 2x a day and a multivitamin. He will pick at his alfalfa hay but it really just keeps him busy and he has good grass in the spring-fall. He has done very well weight wise on this program. I will say I had him at barns that just would not work with me on his dietary needs and I moved him. It took 4 barns last year to find the right one. It was the best thing I ever did for him. Just my opinion.

[Rodeio]

And my BO is very old-school (read: not open to new ideas).



Old school or not a thin horse needs more calories! I know you have been beaten down a lot about your future in laws but dear gott in himmel they are annoying and down right rude. You realize your horses health could seriously be compromised in their care right? Heck it already is, he is not getting fed what he needs! These people will not change when they are your inlaws, you will battle with this everyday you are associated with them. My older and quite jaded from experience self cannot wrap my head around why you are still associated with these people!

FWIW a 50 lb bag of alfalfa pellets is about $10 - 12 in your area (I am north of you about an hour). A half a pound is only about 2 dry cups worth.

[Rodeio]

I'll look into rice bran too, but I need to figure out the NSC of it (if that information is available) first.


I feed Healthy Glo rice bran from ADM. The NSC of that is ~ 18%

[pattnic]

The purpose of the current feed mixture would appear to be to limit the NSCs while ensuring that nutritional needs are met (the Lite being more nutrient-dense per pound).

That said, more calories are needed, which she acknowledges. She is asking for ideas on other sources for these calories as a) horse can currently be fed only once a day and she would like to therefore keep the number of pounds fairly low, b) she is trying to avoid fats (though I did not know that fat was an issue for IR horses?), c) she is trying to minimize NSCs, and d) beet pulp is really not an option.

If I remember correctly, OP has spoken with TC reps about this horse as well...?

Horse has been moved from previous barn due to BOs unwillingness to follow vet-recommended diet changes for IR, amongst other things.

Boarding options in the area are very limited.

OP stresses over all these little things (like the IR) because she really is trying to do right by her horse in the best possible situation currently available.

Appychik - I know it's a huge pain in the rear, but *do* take the time to get the hay analyzed. I would also slowly increase the TC Senior to the max recommended per feeding, at least for the time being. I also like the idea of alfalfa pellets. I would also do further research into the idea that fats are no good for IR horses, and speak with your vet about it as well. On a slightly related note, I think that you need one of these (the all-in-one): http://www.bucas.com/smartex_turnout.php