What IS this? *Graphic pics*

[RnR]

In short, I'm taking care of a horse while the owner is away for Thanksgiving. I sort of knew to a small extent that the horse had some skin issues at the moment, but owner said she is fine, just put some corona on it when I turn her out at night.

Well, went to take care of her and literally felt sick when I saw her. She goes out with one other horse, and they both have this, which makes me worry that it's contagious. I can't just slather some goo on it and leave her, so I've been washing it out with nolvasen and an anti-fungal shampoo, as well as putting anti-itch powder on it. I'm taking care of her for about a week so I really hope she shows some improvement before the owner comes back so they realize it IS worth it to clean it etc.

Anyway, I took pictures today, which is about the 3rd day of me washing/treating it. The very first day it was literally dripping blood when I took her out of her stall, so I'm so glad it seems to have shown some improvement possibly.

I'm not asking anyone to diagnose her as a vet would, I have no idea why a vet hasn't been to look at her, but it's not my horse. I am just wondering if anyone has seen something similar or has any inclination as to WHAT it is?! I REALLLLLY don't want this spreading to me or my own horses. Do you think it's bacterial? Fungal? Something else that gives you heebee geebees?

Here are links to the pictures. Some can be graphic, so look at your own discretion. All of the picture angles are odd, so I'll try to point out what you're looking at.


The sore under her belly before I washed it today:
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0227.jpg

The sore under her belly after I washed it out (the size of it is hard to tell, but it's about a foot long, and 6 inches across):
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0244.jpg

Her udders with sores all in them:
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0228.jpg

Her udders after I washed them:
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0243.jpg

In between her front legs/armpits before I washed:
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0234.jpg

Armpits/front legs after the wash (and you can kind of see her patch on her stomach that is raw):
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0240.jpg

Her chest:
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0239.jpg

Her mane she rubbed out:
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0245.jpg

Her poor rubbed face:
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0237.jpg
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSC_0246.jpg

Any thoughts?

[Grataan]

That DEFINITELY needs to be seen-I'd take skin scrapings as well as bacterial and fungal cultures, perhaps even some biopsies (dermatopaths looove full thickness biopsies lol.) And promptly send them off to my classmate, who is a vet. derm. resident (I'd send some to Idexx as well)

Its kinda hard to tell from the pictures, but if the O really has been taking care of this there is probably something more going on and there is a chance it isn't ye olde garden variety fungus but something rather more malicious

[mypaintwattie]

I would make sure you are always wearing disposable gloves when working with her or her pasture mate- if it is contagious you certainly dont want to transfer it to your horses! What a sweet face, hopefully a vet can come out when her owner returns and get to the bottom of what it is.

[ReSomething]

I rode a horse that had a very small stomach patch similar to that. I use to gently scratch off the dead skin and he just loved that. Unfortunately he was not mine and I never knew whether the condition was diagnosed.

I would definitely use the disposable gloves and I certainly hope the owners see fit to have the vet come out. If that patch on the schoolie had gotten to looking like your photos I would have refused to ride him!

[tBHj]

If it was one small patch I could *maybe* see not having the vet come out and look. But those many patches, and that big.. and on her poor udder. Jeesh..

[pintopiaffe]

It looks very much like the soy allergy horses I've dealt with.

Not saying it's soy per se, but it looks a lot like long term, untreated allergies. They start as small sores and ooze, the horse rubs, they get infected, etc. etc. etc.

Absolutely needs a vet. But if the vet can't find a reason, diet is the #1 culprit I'd look at.

[equineartworks]

The poor dear thing...I agree with all above...wear gloves and have the vet out.

[Creaghgal]

What's the owner going to do when s/he comes home to find these pictures plastered all over the internet.

My guess is this needs to be attacked from the inside out. Anything you put on it is just cosmetic.

[Cloverbarley]

I also think it looks like it could be an allergic reaction.

One of my horses had a life threatening injury which took a very long time to heal, and afterwards took a great toll on my horses immune system for about a year afterwards so he came down with all sorts. One temporary thing he came down with was a form of photosensitivity/allergic reaction. He had large patches of skin all over his body which started off as raised areas and then it seeped and "burnt" the surrounding skin. This all happened within hours, one minute he was fine, the next his whole body was affected and he had patches like these all over him;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43844686@N08/4136000562/

He had antihistamine shots and I washed (gently) the patches and then put a soothing and antiseptic cream on them all. The above photo is when it was healing, but his skin looked remarkably like your lady's horse before I treated him. I never picked at his crusty bits, the cream helped soften the scabs so that I could remove them painlessly and once they were off, he healed up nicely. Hair grew back and within no time you couldn't see that anything had been amiss.

[RnR]

Thanks for the responses so far everyone. I am definitely going to recommend they get whatever it is checked out ASAP when they get home. The mare is just beside herself she's so itchy and uncomfortable. With the itch powder, I haven't seen her scratching anything new lately, so hopefully it will give the sores a chance to scab and heal.

I'm almost out of disposables, so I'll definitely go get some more.

A thought is though, if it is an allergy, would you think it is possible that her other pasture mate has the identical thing? They don't eat the same grain. Her pasture mate got it first, and within a few weeks this mare started getting small patches of it. Maybe something in the pasture?

I haven't said anything derogatory about the owner, and I am sure they are curious as to what this is as well. I don't see it being a problem if they saw her pictures. I am actually considering emailing them a few pics while they are gone just to ask them if this is what was on her when they left.

My horses are boarded at the same barn, but down the other end, and boarded in a pasture that doesn't come near their pasture, but I'm still paranoid. I've been scrubbing my hands/arms/fingernails with soap every time I go to mess with my guys after taking care of her.

Thanks for the ideas again, I'll let you know what it may be if a vet comes out later this week.

[pj]

Personally I can't believe that anyone let their horse get that bad and hasn't called a vet. Poor poor horse.
If anyone thinks I'm being critical...I am.

Do send her the pictures and maybe she will allow you to call the vet.
Tell her the horse is miserable.

[nickers@dawn]

Looks like sweet itch to me. Allergic reaction to gnats. Where is the horse located?

[FatPalomino]

A thought is though, if it is an allergy, would you think it is possible that her other pasture mate has the identical thing? They don't eat the same grain. Her pasture mate got it first, and within a few weeks this mare started getting small patches of it. Maybe something in the pasture?



I'd be thinking bacteria or fungus (like ringworm, contagious to people, esp. kids).
I can't believe the boarding barn hasn't demanded a vet out!
Poor horse!

[twhs]

One of my geldings had a skin disorder several years ago which never completely cleared up with vet's help (steroids, various creams, shampoos, sprays, and lots of attention) but did finally completely clear up when I tried Shapley's MTG on it. My gelding's skin never bled tho -- so I don't know if it's the same -- but you might try MTG on a small spot as a test. The MTG is oily & stinks & contains sulfer.

I stopped picking scabs and shampoooing because that only seemed to spread the sores. MTG was much easier!

His skin cleared up pretty quickly once we began using MTG. After that whenever I saw the beginning stages of anything skin related I applied the MTG and it never got bad again.

After we moved we never had a problem with his skin -- but to be on the safe side -- again, if I ever see him itching or anything that remotely looked like the crud he had before, I brought out the MTG -- a little goes a long way.

He had rubs on his face but I don't think I put it the MTG on his face. I think I used a diluted tea tree oil there.

Hope this helps.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

I'd be thinking bacteria or fungus (like ringworm, contagious to people, esp. kids).
I can't believe the boarding barn hasn't demanded a vet out!
Poor horse!

I agree. As a BO I would want that checked ASAP especially if two horses have it I would NOT want it spreading around the farm.


I also would never, ever, let my horse look like that. The owner needs to call the vet if the problem isn't already being dealt with.

I am not sure what it could be since I've never dealt with a skin issue that extensive.

[Oakstable]

Definately needs a diagnosis.

Hard to believe someone wouldn't have a vet treating that condition but maybe it exploded after they left.

[RnR]

Thanks again for the responses.

It isn't really a "boarding barn" but more a barn with 12 stalls, and all the horses are self care. I take care of my 2, and whenever someone can't come out (such as this instance), I'll take care of theirs also. Normally that just entails feeding them, doing their stall, and turning them in/out, and blanketing if needed. But I saw her sores and couldn't ignore them, so I've been taking some time to try to treat them. It all actually works out really well, and everyone is helpful and responsible. This is the first time something like this has come up. I like to give the owner benefit of the doubt and assume that she didn't realize it was this bad.

I think I'll be emailing her a few pics and ask if I can get a vet out for her. She's not a bad owner by any means, just young and her parents don't get involved too much. I don't think she should have any issues getting a vet visit for the mare. I think the only thing she could say is she wants to wait until she is here in person so she can see it and be here when the vet is here.

Is fungus more prone to spreading than a bacteria?

[chaltagor]

The first thing I thought when I saw that horse was mange. If that was a dog it'd be a classic case of Demodex. I'd want to rule out a skin parasite as well, especially since she's so itchy.

http://merckveterinarymanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/72003.htm

[KrazyTBMare]

The big sore on her belly looks like a larger version of my geldings habronema (summer sore). You have to get a mixture of dex, ivermectin, and if you want, furazone to topically apply each day and also treat internally with once a week ivermectin for 4 weeks. IF that is what it is. I had my geldings surgically removed because I was fearing it was pythiosis (which can only be removed with surgery) but thats exactly what it would look like when it wasnt actively draining.

The other pics remind me of NTW. My boarders horse would get similar sores on his chest like you posted and would rub his face too and she did have a biopsy done and they said it was a sensitivity to bugs (esp gnats). Once I read about the NTW on here, I went ahead and DD'd everyone with Equimax and followed up with the ivermectin and they went away and havent come back.

Oh and to add - I had double dosed ivermectin 2-3 weeks before my gelding went in to have his sore cut out. When the biopsy was ran, they found no LIVE parasites. When I told the vet I had DD'd the ivermectin, she said she believes that is why they were not able to find live worms, because the DD did an effective job in killing them.

[greeneyelioness]

My thoughts as a vet tech is that this is something fungal and I would be very cautious as fungal infections can be contagious. Especially since the other horse has it. There are many types of fungal infections that don't look like this but I would gather that there is also a secondary bacterial infection because of the pus. Most often fungal infections, such as ringworm, will target the dampest places of the body (ringworm is the same fungus as jock itch and athlete's foot), and on animals those places are usually the ones that you photographed.
I am not a vet, just a tech for now, so what I would suggest is definitely using gloves when scrubbing this stuff so you don't infect yourself.
I am going to advise you to be very cautious about treating someone else's horse because what you do, even in the best of intentions, may back fire and you could do more damage than what has been done already. Then the owner may get upset that you decided to treat this horse without her consent and then you'd find yourself up sh*t's creek without a paddle, you know what I mean?
I know that you want to help this poor girl feel better but even if the treatment the owner said do is not working, you need to continue with that until you can reach the owner and make sure that it is okay to try something else. This isn't your horse and so you are kind of bound. I know some people wouldn't think twice about trying something else but in this day and age of lawsuit happy people, you have to be careful.
On another note, if this turns out to be an allergy of some sort, then switching to a different treatment may end up doing more damage as you (I am assuming) don't know much about this poor girl's history so you don't know if she is allergic to even every day normal topical stuff, which can happen.
Definitely send an email and request a vet to come out. Express your concern that this may be something contagious and you don't want it to infect the other boarders because if it does, and you have boarders like I have had in the past, they will be furious and demand that she pay for their horses' treatments.
You're in a hard situation because this isn't your horse and you don't want to see her suffer. If you have a barn manager, even the self care barns I have boarded at usually do, then express your concern with them as well. A lot of times BM/BO's have a little bit more leeway when it comes to initiating treatments on a boarder's horse as it is their responsibility to make sure that a sick horse doesn't become a liability to their other horses.
I will also say that MTG is great stuff but it smells something awful. If you decide to use this on another person's horse without permission, they may get upset about the residual smell that does get into blankets and pads, and is very hard to get rid of. I used MTG a month ago and have washed my barn coat and gloves several times since the one day I used it wearing them and they still smell!
I know it seems like I am being overly cautious but I am just looking out for you as I see situations like this all of the time come through my clinic: a pet is left in someone's care with owner recommended treatments that don't work and so the caring sitter tries a different approach with the best of intentions and things get worse and then there are battles between the 2 people. It happens in horseland as well and in the small animal world too.
So the best advice that I can give to you medically is to talk to the owner and the barn manager and really express a concern for those horses plus the others in the barn too. If you tell her that you don't any of the other boarders may start to complain, especially if you have a Ms. PainintheAss who complains about EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, then use that person's name to your advantage to make the owner call the vet to come out so Ms. PainintheAss can't try to say that her horse got sick because these horses weren't treated.
I hope my advice helps. Until you hear from the owner, use gloves.
Good luck and update us on what the outcome is.

[Beethoven]

:lol: Graphic..no..ever been to FL?

I am guessing this horse is not in FL. I agree looks like sweet itch due to noseeums and possibly some NTW as well or just allergies!

My horse looks like that as well. Sadly really nothing can be done till the noseeums leave for winter and they stop biting. Fly sheets help to a point but it gets so dang hot that you can't always put one on. I am treating him for NTW which he did have, but a part is also just sweet itch stuff. I am on the fence about if I am going to test for allergies with him or not.

My mare was so bad rubbing her tail raw that I got her tested for allergies and she is allergic to 20 different things. She is now on shots and changed food due to food allergies and she looks much better.

Truthfully there is not much you can do. I have tried every product out there with little success. So I just live with it and manage it. Is it ugly. Definatly, but you will drive yourself mad trying to treat it.

And yes, my horse has been looked and Vet says its just FL environment bugs, sweat, humindity that causes it.

[goeslikestink]

Looks like sweet itch to me. Allergic reaction to gnats. Where is the horse located?

could be but its a severe
case of skin infection thats needs to be treated and one thats either or in my book not to sure its sweet - itch


www.sweet-itch.co.uk
get the botti rug from above
then go here to treat you can either use camrosa www.camrosa.co.uk
click horses you will see more photos

or go find thomas 1 sticky on fly repellent on the horse care section
or ask him his stuff also works and you will donation to chararity

or its ring worm - either way call a vet asap and get it sorted

but you need a vet to tell you as ring worm n a servere state can look the same ring worm is highly infectious where as sweet-itch isnt

look here http://webpages.lincoln.ac.uk/fruedisueli/FR-webpages/Research/research%20subjects/microbiology/backgroundinfo.htm

and you need to take full hygene protocol if it is ring worm
ie gloves on when cleaning the horse dont share tack etc
but also clean them with a disinfectant, plus yard must be closed from movement ie shows etc and foot bath on entry exit
you need to change your clothes when you leave the yard so you dont take it home

[Treasmare2]

I am going to guess sweet itch or mange.

[Ruth0552]

The spots on the chest look a little different in pics than the other sores. The chest spots look like itchy bug bites or tick bites that my horse gets.

The other sores look like a skin parasite or fungus to me. I would imagine a vet would prescribe some antibiotics and possible some steroids depending on the diagnosis.

I didn't read every single response, but if no one suggested this, you should consider changing your clothes between horses (your and theirs) as well.

[Thomas_1]

Looks like ringworm.

[TBMaggie]

I agree with Thomas. Ringworm. Very contagious. YOU need to be careful so that you don't get it also.

[fooler]

Looks like sweet itch to me. Allergic reaction to gnats. Where is the horse located?

I agree - looks very much like allergic reaction to gnats and self biting on chest and belly area. My TWH gelding reacts like this and bites at the gnats & the ichy areas. His skins looks much, much worse if I don't follow certain procedures.
At this point you should strongly encourage the owner to bring out the vet.
If this an allergic reaction - the vet can give the horses steriod shots to relive the immediate irritation and go from there. FYI - It is 'possible' this is a reaction to insects as my gelding is very reactive to the bites but my TB (very thin skinned) CH mare is not bothered at all & they often share the same pasture.
Until you speak with the owner and/or Vet continue to use gloves and cleanse yourself & equipment before working with other horses in the barn in case it is a contagious skin dis-order.
Good Luck and Good for you for going the extra step.

[goeslikestink]

Looks like ringworm.

tend to agree as had a second look which i did say above i thought it was

highly contagious

[RnR]

Ick. I'm so disgusted. I have been wearing gloves, and have hand sanitizer in my tack trunk I use every time I get done handling her. That's a good idea about changing clothes too. I haven't been doing that.

I've been putting some anti-itch powder on it, which seems to have no effect unfortunately.

Thanks so much for all the advice, I'll still keep you updated. The owner gets back Monday, thank goodness! Then she will have the vet out.

[gumshoe]

Lice?

From

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5469

Horses with lice look rough and unthrifty, with a scruffy hair coat, and they continually rub and scratch. They might have open sores from the rubbing. Any horse that is itching, rolling, or rubbing a lot might have lice and should be checked. By the time you see hair loss, the horse has been itching for a while. Other things that can cause itching and hair loss are mites or dry skin, so be sure to identify the cause before treating the horse.

and

"Chewing lice are most prevalent on the head, mane, base of the tail, and shoulder, while the sucking louse is commonly found on the head, neck, back, and the inner surface of the upper legs," he notes.

On affected dark-colored horses, you might see the tiny, light-colored eggs on the hair. "Eggs are glued to the hair, and may still be there after the larvae hatch. If you don't look closely, you may think the horse still has a louse infestation, seeing the old eggs--even though the caps have broken off and the larvae already emerged," says Clymer. Empty egg shells stay there, glued to the hair--like an empty bot egg--until they break off or the hair comes out.

[mothermucker12]

yikes, be careful using brushes, blankets etc if it is contagious