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koolkas2
Nov. 25, 2009, 07:25 PM
So our bitch gave birth to 10 healthy puppies on Monday. They were not expected, we noticed her belly getting bigger 2 weeks ago and it was pretty clear that she was pregnant from that point!

I found the little family on the hall carpet when I came back from work Monday. Everything looks fine, they're all gaining weight and we feed the mom rich puppy food to stay in shape.

My only concern is that tonight I noticed that she's having dark bloody vaginal discharges. Is this normal? It's the first time I have to care for puppies in a long time, and I can't remember if it happened to my older bitch too.

BTW, she's 2.5 y.o. and this is her first litter (and hopefully last one!!!) She's Husky x Bernese mt dog, and the male was propably one of our neighbor's Bernese, since all the puppies are entirely bernese "marked".

She's our beloved house dog, and I'm a worried mom :)

Thanks!

Alagirl
Nov. 25, 2009, 07:38 PM
vet check. :D

Ajierene
Nov. 25, 2009, 07:50 PM
Take her to the vet and invest in puppy formula. Now is a good time to get her spayed.

BLBGP
Nov. 25, 2009, 07:55 PM
Vet check for her and the pups, then a spay! Puppies are an expensive ordeal....good luck finding homes for the little (soon to be huge) guys!

FatPalomino
Nov. 25, 2009, 07:57 PM
I concur with all the other posters, looks like you're in for an expensive ER vet visit and a spay really soon. The world doesn't need any more dogs, and I am continually suprised by folks with unaltered females who are amazed they get pregnant :sigh:

Foxtrot's
Nov. 25, 2009, 09:15 PM
Lecture not necessary. OP probably knows already.

With so many puppie she may get calcium deficient.

SmokenMirrors
Nov. 25, 2009, 09:28 PM
The bloody discharge is not normal, so hopefully you got her to the local vet and then get her spayed! If she was your beloved pet you would of already done so before she got out and got pregnant with an unexpected and large litter. Sorry but with all the abandoned and starving animals in shelters, all that is needed is yet ANOTHER unplanned litter.

Arab/WBGirl
Nov. 25, 2009, 09:35 PM
A vet visit is in order. Probably not a good idea to spay mom until after puppies are weaned. And please do not let them go to their new homes until they are at least 8 weeks old as they get so much socialiazation and early learning experiences that are badly need to make them good pets. Good luck with finding them all new homes, and if possible, why not insist that the new owners meet you at the vet's office of their choice whereby you drop off the new baby to be spayed/neutered prior to it ever going to it's new home? Or even check to see if you have a low cost spay/neuter clinic in your area that might give potential owners a lower cost. That way, no more unwanted babies. Good luck, sorry this happened. Get her spayed after her puppies are gone asap!!
Dawn

FalseImpression
Nov. 25, 2009, 10:30 PM
Please don't do like another poster and just wait and see. Get her seen by a vet. She (and you) don't need to deal with an infection!! I know it is a holiday weekend, but your dog's life and the puppies' lives may be at risk.

sdlbredfan
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:11 PM
LOL indeed (quoting the 'I am continually surprised by folks with unaltered females who are amazed they get pregnant ').

sdlbredfan
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:13 PM
Lecture not necessary. OP probably knows already.

With so many puppie she may get calcium deficient.
Lady dog should have been spayed about 2 years ago, IMO.

Pocket Pony
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:36 PM
Where are you located? I volunteer at our local animal shelter and came across a lady who was looking for a Bernese because her old Bernese just passed away.

No advice for puppies as I've never been in that position. Best to get mom to the vet to get checked out just in case. Of course I would hope she'd be spayed as soon as is appropriate for the situation.

mustangtrailrider
Nov. 26, 2009, 12:02 AM
I would worry about uterine infection or retained poc or puppy....ie...you will get an infection. What is her temp? If bleeding continues, I would get her to the vet as early as possible.

I don't know if I would take her to the vet tonight....if she is stable otherwise. THat is just me....

FatPalomino
Nov. 26, 2009, 12:25 AM
I don't know if I would take her to the vet tonight....if she is stable otherwise. THat is just me....

I'd bring the bitch in tonight to the vet. Yes, it's expensive, that's what you get for waiting to see. I've bottlefed ONE puppy that was 3 weeks old when mom had seizures and died (very possibly hypocalcemic).... I could not ever imagine bottlefeeding 10 from a few days old!!!!

jetsmom
Nov. 26, 2009, 12:58 AM
First, if you owned the dog for the last two months, slap yourself for not getting her spayed and allowing an intact female to get in a position to be bred. If you took her in, in that condition, take a deep breath, and get her to the vet. Then SPAY her after the pups are weaned.

koolkas2
Nov. 26, 2009, 09:20 AM
"Lecture not necessary. OP probably knows already."

Thank you very much for that!

Just to explain the context : The dog is my BF's, and he actually wanted her to have a litter before he would have her spayed. You might disagree, but it's his dog and his choice... My 3 farm dogs are all spayed/neutered.

We were not expecting this one since we thought she had not been in contact with a male during her last heat. My own pick for a male for her would have been a bernese, so I'm not that disapointed. Although I might be disapointed by the number of pups!

4 out of 10 pups already found homes, so placing them shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Bf is very good with puppy raising. His bitch is the most well behaved dog I've ever seen. Ever. And no, we're not planning on letting them go too soon, we know socialization is important.

Thank you very much to those who answered my question about vaginal discharge. As I said before, she started them only yesterday evening. I'll propably bring her to the vet asap to have her checked.

Would it be better to give her a calcium supplement, if this ever exists?

We actually thought of having the pups spayed/neuter before letting them go to their new homes, but we've been told you have to wait untill they're 6 m.o.?

Thanks

Cloverbarley
Nov. 26, 2009, 10:01 AM
Post-whelping bleeding is normal in a bitch. It usually occurs a few days after whelping and isn't usually cause for concern so long as it is a brownish red colour and does not have an offensive odor. If she is sick you will know; she may become dehydrated, go off her food, vomit or seem very down. You should also notice a temperature change if she is unwell.

Many vets ask you not to take bitches and newborn puppies into the surgery due to the risk of them catching an infection, however many vets will come out and do a home check on the mother and pups. This could be an option for you if you are worried about her.

FatPalomino
Nov. 26, 2009, 10:10 AM
The dog is my BF's, and he actually wanted her to have a litter before he would have her spayed. You might disagree, but it's his dog and his choice...
He hasn't spoken with a vet about that choice, or read any studies about canine mammory cancer, or gone to a shelter where dogs dying ever day because there just isn't room, has he?

If my BF said this, I'd be afraid he'd want to use the same faulty logic on me!!!!!



4 out of 10 pups already found homes, so placing them shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Hope they keep them. I helped adopt out 8 puppies 6 months ago, 2 already need to be rehomed, when they were no longer cute and cuddly.


I'll propably bring her to the vet asap to have her checked.
Like she probably wasn't pregnant even being left unattended when in heat????


Would it be better to give her a calcium supplement, if this ever exists? A question for your vet.


We actually thought of having the pups spayed/neuter before letting them go to their new homes, but we've been told you have to wait untill they're 6 m.o.?

The studies are showing no ill effects from an early spay/neuter. But again, a question for the vet.

koolkas2
Nov. 26, 2009, 10:47 AM
Post-whelping bleeding is normal in a bitch. It usually occurs a few days after whelping and isn't usually cause for concern so long as it is a brownish red colour and does not have an offensive odor. If she is sick you will know; she may become dehydrated, go off her food, vomit or seem very down. You should also notice a temperature change if she is unwell.

Many vets ask you not to take bitches and newborn puppies into the surgery due to the risk of them catching an infection, however many vets will come out and do a home check on the mother and pups. This could be an option for you if you are worried about her.


Very helpful post, thank you very much.

In_
Nov. 26, 2009, 10:56 AM
KoolKas - where are you located?

Tom King
Nov. 26, 2009, 11:05 AM
Some discharge is normal unless there is a LOT.

Give her all she wants to eat. They mostly will want only canned food to start with so don't be alarmed if she turns up her nose at kibble.

koolkas2
Nov. 26, 2009, 11:25 AM
In_ : I'm in QC, Can

Tom King : Thanks! She eats kibbles like usual, never turned her nose on it since she had the pups. I'll continue to keep an eye on the quantity she eats.

Aside from the discharges, she looks like she's in very good health. Alert, bright eyes, no elevated temp, eats well, drinks well and looks like the proudest mom on earth!

MunchkinsMom
Nov. 26, 2009, 11:41 AM
Glad that momma and pups appear to be doing well, no matter why they are here. Now the BF has no more reasons to not get her spayed.

I bet the pups are adorable, would love to see pictures of them.

Daydream Believer
Nov. 26, 2009, 12:41 PM
A good calcium supplement for a lactating bitch is cottage cheese. Dogs love it.

FalseImpression
Nov. 26, 2009, 01:02 PM
In_ : I'm in QC, Can


Well, then you have no holiday weekend excuse! Just don't wait until Friday night to make up your mind.
I rescued a female Golden a few years ago (she was a stray) and she developed pyometra. Not fun for the dog or for you!

midnightdream
Nov. 26, 2009, 01:08 PM
Upon discussion with a few vets (as I have a puppy about to get spayed next week) is to not do it any younger than 6 months. The reason ours is being done at 6 months is because we are in an area with coyotes and if she goes in heat this can become a dangerous situation- especially when there is a group of coyotes that catch on. Hopefully your BF will make the decision to spay his as it is sad to see how many puppies/dogs are left homeless due to irresponsible owners who fail to spay/neuter their pets.

draftdriver
Nov. 26, 2009, 01:55 PM
I don't know about the discharge, but I do know about raising a large litter of puppies. My dog Holly arrived at the Humane Society ready to pop. She was terrified and underweight. My sister took her into foster care. Holly had 9 puppies, and although it was very difficult to get her to eat properly (or for a few weeks, at all), she raised all 9. Try to get as much protein into her as you can. Crack an egg onto her kibble; cottage cheese; yoghurt; any meat that you can get her to eat. I remember standing beside her and feeding her kibbles, one at a time, just to try to get her to eat at all. I don't know whether it was post-partum hormones, or what. Outside in the yard, she would forrage for bugs, frogs, and other wild protein.

Despite this, all the puppies did well. I adopted Holly, who is now spayed. After shedding her coat to the point of virtual nakedness when the puppies were weaned, she has grown a lovely, shiney, medium-length coat, and is no longer a picky eater, although I keep her on a wheat-free kibble.

Best wishes.

cloudyandcallie
Nov. 26, 2009, 02:00 PM
The bloody discharge is not normal, so hopefully you got her to the local vet and then get her spayed! If she was your beloved pet you would of already done so before she got out and got pregnant with an unexpected and large litter. Sorry but with all the abandoned and starving animals in shelters, all that is needed is yet ANOTHER unplanned litter.

I am constantly amazed at women who cannot tell that their bitch is in season. I agree with you. More unwanted puppies.
The bitch should be taken to the vet as she may have either plancenta retained in her or God forbid, a dead puppy. Poor bitch and poor puppies.:(

Alagirl
Nov. 26, 2009, 02:17 PM
I am constantly amazed at women who cannot tell that their bitch is in season. I agree with you. More unwanted puppies.
The bitch should be taken to the vet as she may have either plancenta retained in her or God forbid, a dead puppy. Poor bitch and poor puppies.:(


I don't think the season was the problem, the gentleman visitor was the surprise...

enjoytheride
Nov. 26, 2009, 02:23 PM
Your boyfriend thought she should have a litter before he spayed her so you were letting your unaltered female run around an unaltered male and you were surprised when she had a bunch of puppies in your hallway?

Either you're stupid or you think we are.

Please tell me she at least was in a fenced in yard and the stud jumped the fence or something.

MunchkinsMom
Nov. 26, 2009, 02:24 PM
Does anyone know why some vets don't want to do it before 6 months of age? I only ask because our vet spayed our puppies at 4 months of age, using laser surgery, and they were just fine.

Marshfield
Nov. 26, 2009, 02:38 PM
I spay and neuter most of our client dogs right around 4 months of age. Cats at three months. Our experience has been that the dogs recover very well, hardly look back when we do the surgery young.

Yes, I'm with the others who think your BF is an absolute idiot. There is no reason for a bitch to have a litter. All it does is add puppies who aren't well thought out to the world and increase the mammary cancer risk. Some discharge is normal, foul odor is usually the sign that something is amiss. Six to eight weeks post weaning is a typical time to spay a bitch who has recently had a litter. And, oh yeah, it's going to cost him a boatload more money (at least double) to have her spayed now than if he had done it young. The surgery is much more involved and much harder on the dog.

koolkas2
Nov. 26, 2009, 02:54 PM
I'm always amazed to see how people on this forum can be rude sometimes! :no:

"Your boyfriend thought she should have a litter before he spayed her so you were letting your unaltered female run around an unaltered male and you were surprised when she had a bunch of puppies in your hallway?"

He wanted to breed her to a stud dog of his choice. He wasn't "letting an unaltered female run around an unaltered male" in hope to get a litter before having her spayed! I still don't have a clue how she could have come in contact with that male, but it happened. As stated before she is a house dog.

"I don't think the season was the problem, the gentleman visitor was the surprise... "

You've got it right!

MunchkinsMom : Of course, they ARE adorable! ;)

I posted in hope of some useful information. Many thanks to those who helped.

Mozart
Nov. 26, 2009, 03:10 PM
My sister in law's Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever had 11 pups. Making sure they all got enough nutrition was a bit of an ordeal, as I recall. She had to supplement the puppies by bottle. Each puppy got a weight chart and got weighed daily to make sure they were gaining.

I think in your position I would get her checked out and then make contact with some local dog breeders for advice on bottle feeding puppies should that become necessary.

Taglet
Nov. 26, 2009, 03:17 PM
I have to comment as a breeder. The purpose of breeding is to match or improve upon the breed. I am dumbfounded why anyone would breed or allow the breeding of a non purebred dog, no matter how pretty, wonderful or pleasing in temperament. Sorry, but there is no such thing as an accident. I am with those that are critical of your bf in even thinking much less allowing your non purebred dog to be bred. There are shelters full of dogs that need homes that will ever be adopted. In the US, the Bernese Mountain dog breeders are a very small group and are known to be some of the most careful breeders out there. You wouldn't find a single one of those quality breeders allowing an intact male anywhere near an unspayed bitch, ESPECIALLY one that was part Bernese for the very obvious fear that their breed would be diluted. Of course your puppies look like Bernese but they do nothing for the breed and are no different than the little mutts that need homes in the shelter.

No doubt these are wonderful puppies but please get your bitch to the vet and get her spayed in 6 weeks. Your bf has had his folly.

buschkn
Nov. 26, 2009, 03:19 PM
Well, to be honest, you can't expect to post on here about a giant litter of "unexpected" giant mutts, and not expect to get a response, no matter how cute they are. I have a Pyr mix I rescued and he is wonderful. However, he is HUGE already at 10mo, about 100lb so far. Burnese get very large as well, in addition to being hairy beasts.

You will have no trouble finding those adorable puppies homes. But when they are 100lb at 10mo are all those people equipped to deal with them? Are you SURE they will all have lifelong homes with people who will provide them proper care and spay/neuter them? Itis horrible to think of, but unless you can place all 10 of them with friends and family, it is likely that some of them might end up in shelters and you will never know about it. Personally I think it's very irresponsible and I'm sorry that you don't want to hear that.

I am sure they are beautiful puppies, I always loved the coloring of the BMDs.

Taglet
Nov. 26, 2009, 03:25 PM
My previous post about a retained placenta didn't post so I'll try again.

Discharge can be normal. HOWEVER, unless you were there when she had the puppies and counted EVERY placenta, you don't know if one or part of a placenta was retained in the uterus or birth canal. This can and often is life threatening!!!!!!!!! You MUST go to the vet now! Your vet will examine her and will likely give her a med to start up contractions again to expel anything that still might be retained. This is not a wait and see since you weren't there to witness and match placentas and puppies. PLEASE take this seriously!!!!!!!!!!

If she is given a drug causing contractions, she must be watched VERY carefully because she might inadvertently roll on a puppy as she will be uncomfortable and will be less careful.

IF you ever consider allowing a bitch to get pregnant again, please be better prepared - any good breeder will tell you that you need to be aware of this and lots of other potential issues in birthing, nursing and weaning.

Good luck but please get to the vet and have your bitch checked. You do need to start weighing your puppies daily - the vet will be able to guide you in this regard.

danceronice
Nov. 26, 2009, 03:50 PM
Yeah, I have to agree--you post about an unplanned, unpapered litter, you can't really expect not to hear "That was dumb." Obviously she was not being watched closely enough for an unspayed bitch, and unless he broke into the house you cannot place ALL the blame on the unaltered male visitor. Dogs can't pick locks and the fence was apparently not enough to keep him out. You'll see some of the breeders on here mention--unspayed females in season do NOT go out unsupervised, because males can find them from miles away.

And I nth please take her to the vet! Retained puppy or placenta could turn into a fatal infection very quickly.

FatPalomino
Nov. 26, 2009, 04:58 PM
I have to comment as a breeder. The purpose of breeding is to match or improve upon the breed. I am dumbfounded why anyone would breed or allow the breeding of a non purebred dog, no matter how pretty, wonderful or pleasing in temperament. Sorry, but there is no such thing as an accident.

^^^^What she said, all of it, even the part I cropped out.

I have *yet* to be skipping down the road, and to stumble, and fall on a penis, and accidentally get pregnant. But, interesting to know this is what happened to your amazingly well mannered, obediant bitch!

patch work farm
Nov. 26, 2009, 05:25 PM
I have had all of my puppies spayed/neutered at 4 months and cats at 3 months, my vets encourage doing it earlier rather than later because they feel they heal faster and have less trauma than they do at older ages.

My vets are VERY strong supporters of spay/neutering and work with all of our local shelters/agencies (spay today, petfixx, etc.) to try to off set the costs and again, encourage people to get them neutered.

I pay $20 per cat, $50 for a male dog, $60 for a female dog. I can tell you prior to finding out this assistance was available I was paying $250 per pet, it has been a life saver for all of the strays I have neutered and it has helped me tremendously as well. Ask your vet if they participate in any programs and it might be something you can afford to do before finding homes for the puppies. I love BMD's and breeders have told me that they are really particular about keeping the breed "pure". I hope it will not affect you getting homes for them, they sounds adorable.

Cloverbarley
Nov. 26, 2009, 05:42 PM
Aside from the discharges, she looks like she's in very good health. Alert, bright eyes, no elevated temp, eats well, drinks well and looks like the proudest mom on earth!
Then she is probably just recovering from giving birth and having a little discharge just like most other whelping bitches. She would not be bright and alert, nor be eating and drinking normally if something was amiss and you would certainly smell the stench by now if she had internal problems. Obviously you need to keep an eye on her and the puppies, as you would with any animal who has just given birth.

I never do get why people start ranting about what someone should or shouldn't have done - sheesh! the puppies are here now and nothing anyone says can change that. The OP is asking a perfectly valid question about the health of her bitch and surely answering the question (if you actually KNOW the answer, which it appears many don't) would be more helpful to her? :confused:

AiryFairy
Nov. 26, 2009, 05:43 PM
I have to comment as a breeder. The purpose of breeding is to match or improve upon the breed. I am dumbfounded why anyone would breed or allow the breeding of a non purebred dog, no matter how pretty, wonderful or pleasing in temperament. Sorry, but there is no such thing as an accident. I am with those that are critical of your bf in even thinking much less allowing your non purebred dog to be bred. There are shelters full of dogs that need homes that will ever be adopted. In the US, the Bernese Mountain dog breeders are a very small group and are known to be some of the most careful breeders out there. You wouldn't find a single one of those quality breeders allowing an intact male anywhere near an unspayed bitch, ESPECIALLY one that was part Bernese for the very obvious fear that their breed would be diluted. Of course your puppies look like Bernese but they do nothing for the breed and are no different than the little mutts that need homes in the shelter.

No doubt these are wonderful puppies but please get your bitch to the vet and get her spayed in 6 weeks. Your bf has had his folly.

What Taglet said. I hope the BF intends to keep track of all these puppies and take them back into his care, at any time, for any reason, throughout their natural lives. Yes, he should. That's what RESPONSIBLE breeders do. Responsible breeders also do health testing, which I'm guessing never happened because it's a mongrel dog, so he doesn't know what kind of future he's inflicting on these puppies.

sdlbredfan
Nov. 26, 2009, 05:54 PM
Amen! This cannot be stressed enough, the Taglet comment 'The purpose of breeding is to match or improve upon the breed. I am dumbfounded why anyone would breed or allow the breeding of a non purebred dog, no matter how pretty, wonderful or pleasing in temperament'. I agree with those who've said OP's boyfriend is an idiot, irresponsible breeder of a mutt (OP said this is a cross bred female). If he is so stupid on this issue, I shudder to think what other idiotic ideas he has, poor OP, having to deal with him and those dumb ideas.

caryledee
Nov. 26, 2009, 06:28 PM
[quote=FatPalomino;4522383
I have *yet* to be skipping down the road, and to stumble, and fall on a penis, and accidentally get pregnant. But, interesting to know this is what happened to your amazingly well mannered, obediant bitch![/quote]

I'm sorry, but I really had to laugh at this!! I think the same thing when people tell me they had an "unplanned" pregnancy.

Good luck with mom and pups koolkas2. What is done is done; just please make this a last time for an unplanned litter or having a litter before spaying.

And I for one would love to see some pictures!

SmokenMirrors
Nov. 26, 2009, 06:35 PM
OP...you say the bitch is a beloved pet and a "house dog"? If you or your bf were watching her so close you would of known she was gone long enough to get mounted by a male, as when they penetrate and tie, that can last anywhere from 15 min. to a half hour. So why weren't you two out looking for her? Oh yea, she is well behaved so probably nearby right?

And having one litter DOES NOT help them after they are spayed. It can actually increase the possibility of them getting mammary cancer or anything else that can crop up regardless of them being spayed or not.

You see nothing wrong with what happened? Go to an animal shelter on put to sleep day, hold the animal, look in its eyes, roll the vein on their leg while they lean against you with a complete look of trust, then as the vet administers the medication to put them to sleep, have them slump against you as you catch them in your arms then lay them out in the hallway so when your done you can check for any signs of life, just to be sure. Once that is verified we would bag them then put them in a freezer so in the morning when the town waste removal would come with a truck to pick up the now frozen bodies. I have worked in an animal shelter, and because of ignorant people breeding and doing exactly what your ignorant bf did. And what I described above is tame, because I was having to clean up the mess people like you create.

Harsh? Yes, as Taglet hit the nail on the head....

sdlbredfan
Nov. 26, 2009, 07:07 PM
SmokenMirrors, I am so sorry for the ones you've had to usher out of body form and into spirit beyond, but bless you for being so kind as they leave. I know OP thinks some of us are being unduly harsh, but you said so eloquently why so many of us are aghasted.

What also saddens me is that OP has not yet realized two important things, one being, it is not necessary to have a man around, at all, and more importantly, having a man in your life with such idiotic notions/lack of comprehension of the stupidity of those notions is a surefire way to be continually aggravated and annoyed, if OP herself does at least understand why so many of us are calling him an idiot. If a woman does have a man in her life, it is much more pleasant if the fellow has compatible opinions on animal care. If she actually understands why we think he is an idiot, and stays with him, all I can say is 'you are known by the company you keep' and 'you can do better than that, dump him as quickly as you can unless you can make him see reason'. Otherwise she is likely to wear out her eye-rolling muscles, LOL.

MistyBlue
Nov. 26, 2009, 07:10 PM
Helpful advice:
When you have any animal that has an obvious abnormal health issue...the best solution is to call the vet immediately and ask them via phone if this is something that needs medical attention, requires just watching or is normal and what yoou can do to help it alleviate.
When you have any animal that has just given birth...having a health and wellness exam afterwards by a licensed vet is a requirement for those who care about their animals' health.
When you have an unspayed mix breed...breeding it to a chosen stud or unchosen one is a craptastic idea no matter what. For *any* reason. Period.
If you don't plan on spaying a female dog by 6 months....you learn what heat cycles look like and keep it under *constant* supervision. Period.

Sorry to sound harsh and I adore puppies as much as anyone, but it is extremely odd to read that anyone would have an unspayed mixed breed dog of a very adult age...and not have *any* idea how it ended up pregnant....and were planning on breeding it anyways....and didn't bother with a pre-whelp vet visit or pst whelp vet visit...and most astonishingly have the female passing clots and blood and go to an online horse bb to ask if this is something to worry about instead of calling a vet immediately. :eek: :no: :eek:

So my helpful advice....call your vet and discuss it with them. This is not the time to try saving money. :(

chaltagor
Nov. 26, 2009, 07:50 PM
I still don't have a clue how she could have come in contact with that male, but it happened. As stated before she is a house dog.

You sound just like the people who come into the place where I work, a vet's, and say their dog doesn't need heartworm preventative as it never goes outside.

I always think "Well how did it get here then? Are you Dr. Who?"

Illogical reasoning in place of responsibility.

MistyBlue
Nov. 26, 2009, 07:56 PM
A transporter Chalt, or maybe astral-projection?

enjoytheride
Nov. 26, 2009, 08:15 PM
I have *yet* to be skipping down the road, and to stumble, and fall on a penis, and accidentally get pregnant.


:D:D

Hannahsmom
Nov. 26, 2009, 08:17 PM
You see nothing wrong with what happened? Go to an animal shelter on put to sleep day, hold the animal, look in its eyes, roll the vein on their leg while they lean against you with a complete look of trust, then as the vet administers the medication to put them to sleep, have them slump against you as you catch them in your arms then lay them out in the hallway so when your done you can check for any signs of life, just to be sure. Once that is verified we would bag them then put them in a freezer so in the morning when the town waste removal would come with a truck to pick up the now frozen bodies. I have worked in an animal shelter, and because of ignorant people breeding and doing exactly what your ignorant bf did. And what I described above is tame, because I was having to clean up the mess people like you create.

Harsh? Yes, as Taglet hit the nail on the head....

Well said. There are a lot of ignorant people in the world, I don't think the OP is one of them. OP, please make your BF do the right thing with what sounds like a very nice dog (spay). And tell him to stand by those puppies no matter what, even to take them back when they are 'too big' or 'too energetic' or whatever.

shea'smom
Nov. 26, 2009, 08:18 PM
Chaltagor, snicker!

chaltagor
Nov. 26, 2009, 08:33 PM
A transporter Chalt, or maybe astral-projection?

You'd think we'd have noticed that big red telephone booth in the waiting room. :eek:

People don't realize that nature will out. No matter how much you think you're civilized or educated or in control Mother Nature will have her way, especially when it comes to reproduction.

Hope your dog doesn't get mammary tumors OP, it's already too late to prevent them. And you can spay a nursing mother; it's the action of the nursing that keeps the milk flowing. Not that it's needed in this case, but I've seen it done with many nursing feral cats. I fostered a mom kitty that was spayed two days after she had her brood and she fed them just fine.

sdlbredfan
Nov. 26, 2009, 09:50 PM
OP, did you call the Vet? What was the advice? To keep this HR, if such a thing had happened with a mare, unattended birth, no way to know if all placenta was passed plus odd discharge after foaling, wouldn't the OP normally call the Vet? I certainly would.

dalpal
Nov. 27, 2009, 09:46 AM
"Lecture not necessary. OP probably knows already."

Thank you very much for that!

Just to explain the context : The dog is my BF's, and he actually wanted her to have a litter before he would have her spayed. You might disagree, but it's his dog and his choice... My 3 farm dogs are all spayed/neutered.

We were not expecting this one since we thought she had not been in contact with a male during her last heat. My own pick for a male for her would have been a bernese, so I'm not that disapointed. Although I might be disapointed by the number of pups!

4 out of 10 pups already found homes, so placing them shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Bf is very good with puppy raising. His bitch is the most well behaved dog I've ever seen. Ever. And no, we're not planning on letting them go too soon, we know socialization is important.

Thank you very much to those who answered my question about vaginal discharge. As I said before, she started them only yesterday evening. I'll propably bring her to the vet asap to have her checked.

Would it be better to give her a calcium supplement, if this ever exists?

We actually thought of having the pups spayed/neuter before letting them go to their new homes, but we've been told you have to wait untill they're 6 m.o.?

Thanks


Banging my head against the desk as we speak. This is why we have so many unwanted animals at the pound being gassed, injected, etc....this mentality. I want my dog to have a litter of puppies cuz I love her and she has ovaries. That is NOT a reason to have a dog bred.

Secondly...banging my head against the desk because someone comes to an internet message board to ask a question like this. If you had bloody discharge after you had a baby, would you ask on an internet message board, or would you get yourself to a doctor???? If the boyfriend wanted a litter of puppies, then he needs to get the dog to the vet, like yesterday, to get her checked out.

Now we have 10 puppies in the world...your average joe mixed breed puppies....What will he do if he can't find homes for all of them? Is he prepared to keep several large dogs to feed? Is he willing to alter all of them. A responsible breeder would have all the puppies spayed and neutered before they leave to their new homes....thus, stopping anymore unwanted puppies in the world.

I am just at a loss.....a spay costs about 120.00ish if you go to a spay/neuter clinic...now you have a sick dog and 10 puppies to feed and find homes for.

Next time, tell him if he gets the puppy itch...go to the shelter and pick one up that needs a home instead of breeding 10 more into the world.:mad:

dalpal
Nov. 27, 2009, 09:51 AM
I'm always amazed to see how people on this forum can be rude sometimes! :no:

"Your boyfriend thought she should have a litter before he spayed her so you were letting your unaltered female run around an unaltered male and you were surprised when she had a bunch of puppies in your hallway?"

He wanted to breed her to a stud dog of his choice. He wasn't "letting an unaltered female run around an unaltered male" in hope to get a litter before having her spayed! I still don't have a clue how she could have come in contact with that male, but it happened. As stated before she is a house dog.

"I don't think the season was the problem, the gentleman visitor was the surprise... "

You've got it right!

MunchkinsMom : Of course, they ARE adorable! ;)

I posted in hope of some useful information. Many thanks to those who helped.

I work in rescue, have pulled many dogs from the pound...and whether I'm rude or not...I am simply fed up with this attitude of "LET'S BREED IT"....I kid you not, every single time I have been in the shelters to pull a dog out....never fails, here comes someone with a dog or litter of puppies to dump off. So yes, it is a huge sore spot with me that people continue to do this just because it is their "right".

dalpal
Nov. 27, 2009, 09:55 AM
Then she is probably just recovering from giving birth and having a little discharge just like most other whelping bitches. She would not be bright and alert, nor be eating and drinking normally if something was amiss and you would certainly smell the stench by now if she had internal problems. Obviously you need to keep an eye on her and the puppies, as you would with any animal who has just given birth.

I never do get why people start ranting about what someone should or shouldn't have done - sheesh! the puppies are here now and nothing anyone says can change that. The OP is asking a perfectly valid question about the health of her bitch and surely answering the question (if you actually KNOW the answer, which it appears many don't) would be more helpful to her? :confused:

Well, if my dog had dark bloody discharge, I wouldn't be on an internet message board, I'd be calling my veterinarian. I have yet to understand why people think they'll get answers to these questions off of an internet message board. Sure, maybe it's nothing..then again, maybe she has a retained puppy or placenta....dog should have already been checked out.

dalpal
Nov. 27, 2009, 09:58 AM
OP...you say the bitch is a beloved pet and a "house dog"? If you or your bf were watching her so close you would of known she was gone long enough to get mounted by a male, as when they penetrate and tie, that can last anywhere from 15 min. to a half hour. So why weren't you two out looking for her? Oh yea, she is well behaved so probably nearby right?

And having one litter DOES NOT help them after they are spayed. It can actually increase the possibility of them getting mammary cancer or anything else that can crop up regardless of them being spayed or not.

You see nothing wrong with what happened? Go to an animal shelter on put to sleep day, hold the animal, look in its eyes, roll the vein on their leg while they lean against you with a complete look of trust, then as the vet administers the medication to put them to sleep, have them slump against you as you catch them in your arms then lay them out in the hallway so when your done you can check for any signs of life, just to be sure. Once that is verified we would bag them then put them in a freezer so in the morning when the town waste removal would come with a truck to pick up the now frozen bodies. I have worked in an animal shelter, and because of ignorant people breeding and doing exactly what your ignorant bf did. And what I described above is tame, because I was having to clean up the mess people like you create.

Harsh? Yes, as Taglet hit the nail on the head....

Amen.....and yet, the people who brought those dogs to the pound, could care less. :mad:

fivehorses
Nov. 27, 2009, 10:08 AM
OP...you say the bitch is a beloved pet and a "house dog"? If you or your bf were watching her so close you would of known she was gone long enough to get mounted by a male, as when they penetrate and tie, that can last anywhere from 15 min. to a half hour. So why weren't you two out looking for her? Oh yea, she is well behaved so probably nearby right?

And having one litter DOES NOT help them after they are spayed. It can actually increase the possibility of them getting mammary cancer or anything else that can crop up regardless of them being spayed or not.

You see nothing wrong with what happened? Go to an animal shelter on put to sleep day, hold the animal, look in its eyes, roll the vein on their leg while they lean against you with a complete look of trust, then as the vet administers the medication to put them to sleep, have them slump against you as you catch them in your arms then lay them out in the hallway so when your done you can check for any signs of life, just to be sure. Once that is verified we would bag them then put them in a freezer so in the morning when the town waste removal would come with a truck to pick up the now frozen bodies. I have worked in an animal shelter, and because of ignorant people breeding and doing exactly what your ignorant bf did. And what I described above is tame, because I was having to clean up the mess people like you create.


Harsh? Yes, as Taglet hit the nail on the head....

ditto what you and Taglet have written.

What also concerns me is that koolkas you would take what cloverbarley advises..don't think she is a vet, or anyone else telling you the dog could be fine.
Please do not rely on internet information as your sole vet advice.
second, please have your bf go to shelter on euthanasia day...maybe he won't think it is such a good idea to bring mutts into the world.
As the woman in his life, don't put up with it, put your foot down to things you know are wrong. If you have 3 other spayed/nuetered animals then you know right from wrong.

If BF is this dumb, educate him and tell him NO, this is wrong. You are just as much to blame as he is, imo.

Sorry, there are just too many dogs and cats who are not provided for, and anyone who thinks their dog/cat the exception is just plain not knowledgable.

rcloisonne
Nov. 27, 2009, 10:23 AM
Does anyone really believe a bitch this large is a 100% "house dog"? They allow her to crap and pee in the house? Yeah, okay.

With the mind set of the owner, the age of the bitch and size of the litter, I'll place a good sized wager this is not her first batch either. Anyone else want to bet she's received little to no vet care in her life? Vaccinations? Hips, eyes, etc. evaluated?

Carrera
Nov. 27, 2009, 10:27 AM
Post-whelping bleeding is normal in a bitch. It usually occurs a few days after whelping and isn't usually cause for concern so long as it is a brownish red colour and does not have an offensive odor. If she is sick you will know; she may become dehydrated, go off her food, vomit or seem very down. You should also notice a temperature change if she is unwell.

Many vets ask you not to take bitches and newborn puppies into the surgery due to the risk of them catching an infection, however many vets will come out and do a home check on the mother and pups. This could be an option for you if you are worried about her.

I agree with you. I have been breeding dogs for years (reg't, champions, health tested) and brownish red discharge is normal. Its is also gummy, not blood like at all. If its blood them go to the vet!

Alagirl
Nov. 27, 2009, 11:19 AM
Does anyone really believe a bitch this large is a 100% "house dog"? They allow her to crap and pee in the house? Yeah, okay.

With the mind set of the owner, the age of the bitch and size of the litter, I'll place a good sized wager this is not her first batch either. Anyone else want to bet she's received little to no vet care in her life? Vaccinations? Hips, eyes, etc. evaluated?


Let's not jump to conclusions! There is really no need to assume the worst, even with the laps of judgment presented. If she had indeed bred before, she'd be familiar with the aftermath of birth, don't you think?!

Just a little reminder to everybody: you will get your message across a whole lot better if you can find a little niceness to wrap it in! Even if the offender were to be an incurable mutt multiplier, alienating them will not make them see it your way.

And @ the OP: Who ever thought that breeding a mixed breed dog further needs to do some home work! Especially intended purposeful programs like the Australian 'Labradoodle' project, were one of the common problems is the unpredictable outcome of the cross.

I know of a farmdog who fathered a litter, one of the pups looked just like him, turning into a wiery looking gray thing with bat ears, not even half the size of Daddy (then again, he might not have been the daddy, but the initial markings indicated it)

Oh, and males can stray for miles to find a bitch in heat, so the neighborhood dogs might verywell be innocent.

BLBGP
Nov. 27, 2009, 12:53 PM
This thread is further proof that we still have a long, long way to go to end pet overpopulation and euthanasia of otherwise healthy, adoptable animals simply because there aren't enough homes.

OP, I hope you and your BF do the right thing, get your dog spayed, and keep track of your puppies' next 7-12 years of life to make sure the puppies you intentionally brought into the world don't wind up surrendered to shelters as untrained teenagers or in bad situations later in life. The bigger the dog, the bigger the challenge.

Taglet
Nov. 27, 2009, 01:04 PM
Cloverbarley, Carrera and other fellow breeders,

To assume that one with little dog or breeding experience will be able to evaluate what is "normal" in a post whelping bitch or her puppies is unfair to the OP, the bitch and the welfare of the puppies. For those of us that have seen the consequences of partial placental retention, there is NO excuse or reason EVER not to strongly encourage a post whelping exam to determine that the bitch is clean.

If the OP would like to earn the respect of potential homes, she needs to have the puppies weighed and evaluated and to know that the bitch is healthy post whelping. I've never heard of any intentional breeder who didn't seek the advice of a veterinarian prior to and post whelping.

No one is being harsh. We're just sharing valuable information with the OP who asked.

Polydor
Nov. 27, 2009, 06:55 PM
Nothing to add but to say ... Very well said Fat Palamino! You almost owed me a new computer screen!

P.

sdlbredfan
Nov. 27, 2009, 07:34 PM
I hope the OP's current absence means she is either at the Vet's with the dogs or is carefully tending Momma and pups.

Iluvgoldies
Nov. 27, 2009, 07:50 PM
Can you please post pics of momma and pups? I am interested in seeing too !

sdlbredfan
Nov. 27, 2009, 10:46 PM
Good point on the pix, I'll bet they are really cute. (We definitely wanna see 'em, since we've all been investing some time and emotion into them).

Koolkas2, please let us know if Momma doggie is OK. I am sure I speak for all of us in saying we've shared our opinions because we care, and want to know that she is alright.

bird4416
Nov. 28, 2009, 08:35 AM
I have *yet* to be skipping down the road, and to stumble, and fall on a penis, and accidentally get pregnant. But, interesting to know this is what happened to your amazingly well mannered, obediant bitch!


Best post I've read in a while. :lol:

JohnDeere
Nov. 28, 2009, 08:45 AM
[QUOTE=FatPalomino;4522383I have *yet* to be skipping down the road, and to stumble, and fall on a penis, and accidentally get pregnant. [/QUOTE]

So thats how my last one got here...:winkgrin:

I thouhgt it was the water.

Ruth0552
Nov. 28, 2009, 08:56 AM
FatPalamino- that was hysterical. Esp. since I work at a high school with a plethora of pregnant teenagers (it's a low-income district). I can just see them all skipping to class and whack! there's a penis!

Anyways, I used to work at a vet clinic and there was a couple times we had to explain to someone who had failed to have their female spayed in a timely manner that their invisible fence does in fact, keep the female dog in, but does not keep other things, such as unaltered male dogs, out.

So unless you have a well-fenced yard or are leash-walking your dog only, then it is not surprising that your bf's dog had puppies.

Invite
Nov. 28, 2009, 09:51 AM
^^^^What she said, all of it, even the part I cropped out.

I have *yet* to be skipping down the road, and to stumble, and fall on a penis, and accidentally get pregnant. But, interesting to know this is what happened to your amazingly well mannered, obediant bitch!

That quote made my day!!!

mtk9122
Nov. 28, 2009, 10:02 AM
I am in the process of getting my jaw back off the floor. Having lived for 3 decades in the land of the puppy mills, having rescued dogs, adopted dogs and cared for them - providing them spayed/neutered happy lives, I never cease to be amazed at human nature. Now we are in a different state, same ignorant situations. I have seen a poor basset hound dumped at a kill shelter because she was tied to a tree and bred by a St. Bernard, not once but twice. That animal was dumped because "she kept getting pregnant" . Her pups were adopted, but she was headed to the kill room. I sponsored her (because I had two large rescue dogs already, one special needs and couldn't take on another at the time.) I paid for her spaying/care and she is now with a loving family. There are so many other stories with awful endings. We have a low cost spay/neuter clinic here and it's a blessing to be able to go on line and sponsor a spay or neuter for somebody who cannot afford it.

But what really incenses me is this designer dog situation. A neighbor paid 4 figures for a F1 (whatever that is) Labradoodle from a midwestern state which is notorious for puppy mills. Before he was 1 year old, he suffered seizures and neurological impairment that was irreversible.. NC State did all they could, the necropsy said his brain was mush. And, after all that trauma, my neighbor went out and paid another 4figures for another labradoodle - she assured me this is a reputable breeder! Oh and the reason my friend won't adopt from the pound or a rescue...... wait for it, wait for it ....she doesn't want a mixed breed!!!:mad:

Currently, we are sponsoring a lovely part Lab bitch rescued from a labradoodle puppy mill, 6 of her 7 pups died before/during rescue, and she nursed her sole survivor plus 7 orphaned pups seized in a crack house raid being sold for $3 per pup. I hope to be able to be able to adopt her as soon the rescue releases her for adoption..

Sorry rant over.. return to your regular program.

saratoga
Nov. 28, 2009, 10:32 AM
As a rule I am never rude to people online or in person but anyone who wanted to breed a dog just for fun is an idiot to me and I would tell them so now. Its not about the person's feelings- its the fact that many/most of those puppies will likely end up in our shelters to be killed and before that happens, will produce more puppies that will end up in the shelters to be killed.
When i met my husband, he had a 2 year old female rottie that wasnt spayed. He didnt know much about dogs, this was his first one, and although he really did keep her away from other dogs, he always had a thought that maybe he would breed her someday, just cuz, so didnt get her spayed. I took care of that right away :) Now he is really into adopting instead of buying and getting animals fixed to try to help control overpopulation.

chai
Nov. 28, 2009, 11:32 AM
Call the vet immediately. You should have called as soon as you saw bloody discharge. Why wait? A phone call costs next to nothing, so wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?
Poor dog.

ptownevt
Nov. 28, 2009, 11:57 AM
I remember someone saying once that those folks who wanted their pets to have a litter so their kids could experience the wonder of birth should take the kids to the pound so they could see death, too. I absolutely cannot believe that someone on this board would be so stupid and arrogant as to come here for advice on an "unplanned" but welcome litter of mixed breed puppies and then be offended by the reaction. My 2 dogs are both pound dogs that were rescued as puppies and came north for adoption. They were the lucky few that made it out alive of the tens of thousands of puppies that get dumped at pounds. Even if these puppies get homes, that means 10 more puppies at some pound that will die. The OP and her boyfriend both need to go watch some perfectly wonderful, sweet, kind, beautiful dogs and puppies die because there are quite simply far, far more dogs than there are homes. To suggest that contributing to this problem is someone's right and that we should keep our mouths shut is the height of arrogance. Maybe what the OP and her DBF did was legal but it sure was not ethical or moral or compassionate or anything else good. And I, for one, do not care to see pictures of puppies with very uncertain futures. If I want to do that I can go to the sites that list dogs waiting to be euthanized at pounds for a last desperate attempt at finding them a home and look at their pictures.

littletuna
Nov. 28, 2009, 12:14 PM
Does that mean it is unethical, irresponisble, and immoral that humans continue to reproduce JUST BECAUSE they want a child? Every couple should go to an orphanage or the poorer districts and experience death, first then. There are far more orphaned children then there are homes, too. There is over population in every species. Dogs, cats, humans, horses too. Yet we continue to breed horses though there are thousands upon thousands starving and homeless.

Of course we should encourage everyone to spay and neuter their pets to cut down on the population issue. But no one here has any right to bash the OP or her boyfriend's decision without at least a respectful tone to their responses. It's one thing to kindly point out that the world really does not need any more puppies and it would be wise to spay her ASAP, and perhaps keep a better eye on her especially when she was in heat. However, clearly the puppies have already been born. Advice would be better given on finding them perminent homes promptly. And seriously guys, there are FOUR PAGES of mostly extremely rude posts -- i think she gets it. Answer her question, sure, but it's pretty clear the issue of unwanted puppies has been more than covered -- what gives you the right to "beat the dead horse" in such degrating tones?

In short: Chill out. You energy would be better spent helping out at the pound rehoming all those unwanted puppies than bashing a poster. If you care so much, why are you doing so little?


**And the "you" here is the general YOU, not the poster above me in particular.

ptownevt
Nov. 28, 2009, 02:57 PM
In short: If you care so much, why are you doing so little?

**And the "you" here is the general YOU, not the poster above me in particular.


Yes, I have a serious problem with overbreeding of all types of animals, even humans.
As a matter of fact, free speech is a right. The OP shared on a public board. As long as I do not threaten or use vile language I am within my rights to express my opinion.
You have absolutely no idea what I or any of the other posters are or are not doing.


The thousands upon thousands upon thousands of innocent animals that are suffering and dying every day due to ignorant and irresponsible owners that allow or even encourage them to breed with no future for the offspring is a very serious issue. This is not something to just be tossed off as, oh well, what's done is done.

Huntertwo
Nov. 28, 2009, 03:07 PM
This thread is further proof that we still have a long, long way to go to end pet overpopulation and euthanasia of otherwise healthy, adoptable animals simply because there aren't enough homes.

OP, I hope you and your BF do the right thing, get your dog spayed, and keep track of your puppies' next 7-12 years of life to make sure the puppies you intentionally brought into the world don't wind up surrendered to shelters as untrained teenagers or in bad situations later in life. The bigger the dog, the bigger the challenge.

Totally agree- At this point, we'll never end the pet over population and the euthansia of thousands and thousands of perfectly household pets every year in this country. :cry:

Please people - spay and neuter your pets!

Huntertwo
Nov. 28, 2009, 03:14 PM
In short: Chill out. You energy would be better spent helping out at the pound rehoming all those unwanted puppies than bashing a poster. If you care so much, why are you doing so little?


I do! DH and I have been volunteering since 2001 for a Feral Cat organization.

We and our other volunteers are the ones out there in the freezing cold of winter, the heat of summer to make sure the "throw away cats" are cared for because some irresponsible pet owner wouldn't spay or neuter their cats!!!

Spaying and neutering is so easy and sometimes so inexpensive, there is NO reason to bring more unwanted pets into this world to suffer in the wild. :no:

Jaegermonster
Nov. 28, 2009, 03:18 PM
Agreed so far with just about everyone.
As I sit here with my 10 farm dogs, all rescues or fosters that never left, and and extra 3 current fosters who were part of a large group slated to be PTS at the local animal control on Wednesday for the sole reason that there was not enough room at the inn.
Y'all are right, as long as there are ignorant people who are lax about getting their dogs spayed/neutered and people insist on this designer dog labradoodle, daneador or whatever the hell other two dogs they can stick together the pet overpopulation problem will never stop.

And yes, every dog on my farm is spayed/neutered, and microchipped, gets revolution once a month and sees the vet at least once a year for shots.

You could give some people all the money in the world and they still couldn't buy a clue, and you can't fix stupid.

Hilary
Nov. 28, 2009, 03:28 PM
Um, have to say I'm having a hard time with the tone of this thread, where the person is dealing with 10 unwanted pups, compared to the love fest for Pintopiaffe who knew the cat was pregnant (even though it wasn't her's when it got pregnant) and proceeded to allow her to have the kittens. Some vets will do late term abortions for cats to prevent 10 more cats.

Everyone loves kitties when the author has a sense of humor and posts some photos but let's crucify the person requesting some help with a dog that isn't hers?

bird4416
Nov. 28, 2009, 03:32 PM
Pintopiaffe got vet care for her cat and kittens. She didn't allow the female to get pregnant, she took in an already pregnant/about to pop female. She wasn't the irresponsible one that didn't spay the female. Big difference.

threedogpack
Nov. 28, 2009, 04:04 PM
This doesn't sound abnormal but I think I'd still make an appointment with the vet to make sure there is not a retained placenta or something. Some discharge is going to be normal till the uterus quits contracting. The nursing will help to expel the discharge. Do you tend to see it more after she's been with the puppies?

Good luck finding homes, I'm glad some are already spoken for. By the time 8 weeks rolls around, you will be ready to see them go as they become pooping machines and it's a stinky mess.

As for eclampsia note that you have a long time to worry about it and with 10 puppies your risk is higher. You will not be able to supplement enough to replace what the puppies are taking if she does get eclampsia. She will require a vet visit for sure if this happens. Become familiar with the symptoms and DO NOT WAIT. IT CAN BE FATAL FOR THE BITCH IF YOU WAIT. Use a high quality, well balanced dog food is the best way to prevent this and it may or may not be enough. She will also need a LOT of calories while nursing, so be generous with the food. Personally I always added canned food when I had a nursing mother as the extra fluid was helpful and the calories in canned food are more concentrated.

http://www.thepetcenter.com/Article.aspx?id=3438

"4. Excessive Milk Production - When pups require large amounts of milk (10 to 30 days post whelping) the bitch's ability to maintain proper amounts of calcium in her blood stream becomes stressed. As pups grow their total daily intake of milk increases which puts a greater and greater demand on their milk production. Interestingly, though, even with small litters, some bitches produce so much milk so rapidly that their blood calcium levels simply cannot be maintained... her body is preferentially puting large amounts of calcium ions into milk production. Milk production has priority over the blood stream for calcium! Since calcium ions in the blood have a dynamic impact on nerve transmission and muscle contractility, all sorts of physiologic dysfunction will arise if blood calcium levels are too low. In some disorders, blood calcium ion concentrations are too high which has another set of dysfunctional outcomes."

MistyBlue
Nov. 28, 2009, 04:04 PM
While I personally may have opted for a late term abortion if I had taken in a pregnant cat myself, at least the approach PintoPiaffe took was the safe one. That pregnant kitty didn't go from the frying pan into the fire and she didn't own a mixed breed cat and plan on breeding it "just once" in the first place. And she did make sure the vet was monitoring the health of cats and kittens.
Even if the dog's pregnancy was a mistake (and a foolish one, how an unspayed female was allowed to happen, then allowed outside without any supervision by folks who didn't know she was in heat and left alone unsupervised for long enough to mate with a male and go through the rather long tied in period is beyond me) you can still make sure to recognize what a pregnant dog looks like and then make sure it gets right to the vet's for a health check and then right back to the vet's after whelping for another health check for mom and pups.
If I ended up with a surpise pregnancy in an animal, it's going to the vets. Period.
If there's discharge that I'm worried enough to post about online, my first idea is to call a vet and not post online.
In one thread the process was done with the safety and health of mom and babies in mind and wasn't a female panning on being bred anyways and there wasn't unsual discharge present.
In this thread there's the complete opposite of that.
So yes, both threads have excess unwanted babies brought into the world but totally different ways they got here.
Not to mention it's easier to rehome kittens than huge puppies.

citydog
Nov. 28, 2009, 04:27 PM
A good calcium supplement for a lactating bitch is cottage cheese. Dogs love it.

Dogs love it but it's not a good calcium supplement as it has a very high level of phosphorus which pretty much defeats the purpose.

Here (http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedSNVetJournals%5B1%5D.pdf) are a number of summaries of studies on pediatric spaying and neutering. As you can see, no reason not to just get it done early. In my experience the vets who want to wait until six months or so simply don't want to (or can't) deal with the anesthesia issues.

I hope the OP has gotten veterinary advice by now.

@littletuna You have no idea what any of us on here does or does not do. Those pups are already here, yes, but if one other clueless poster or wussily tolerant SO sees the resulting pile-on here and it makes enough of an impression that they actually act to prevent yet another litter, then good. There are plenty of reminders to spay and neuter and educational efforts about pet overpopulation that are all sweetness and light and some people are still too oblivious or too ignorant to take heed. Sometimes the volume needs to be turned up.

Guin
Nov. 28, 2009, 04:45 PM
You can get the puppies spayed/neutered at 10-12 weeks. Works JUST FINE. The shelter my dog came from will not let any animal leave un-fixed, and they do hundreds of pups/kittens a year. No problems.

thatmoody
Nov. 28, 2009, 05:05 PM
My prize lab bitch got out before I could get her spayed (she was 1 1/2 but I wasn't going to breed her; when we went for her OFA certification she was a little off in her x-ray, so I decided to spay - she was a field trial champ, btw) and got bred by one of our catahoula leopard hounds. My ex pulled them apart IMMEDIATELY (not even a minute later) and didn't tell me that it had happened. A few weeks later, she got a little fat, and looked a little like she was pregnant (he still wasn't talking, btw), but but that time, it was too late for anything other than a late term abortion, but it was weird, because she just didn't LOOK pregnant, and doggone, it, I KNEW she hadn't been bred - I was so careful! I actually thought she might be having a false pregnancy, because my chihuahua had them all the time (she was neutered, and would make nests and "adopt" my daughter's stuffed animals). Then she had Bear, and no other puppies, just the one. I took her right to the vet for x-rays, figuring she was retaining the others, but nope, just him. My ex, by the way, finally fessed up, but only AFTER she had the puppy.

Accidents do happen, but then we bred cow and hog hunting dogs, so we were kind of in a bad situation to have that happen. I grew up in a dog breeding family (my dad raised and sold blue ticks) and married into one as well, but I'm an avid spay and neuter advocate now. I went into the pound once and found one of my puppies in there. I bailed him out, and went home and made the appointment for our dogs right then and there. My ex was so mad at me, but I had to grow a spine eventually. It was different when we were raising dogs to work - they had a rather high mortality rate, and couldn't really work past 4 or 5 years old, and if we raised a litter a year, we'd pretty much give or sell enough to family and friends to make up for the ones who died working or who were retired. They were not pets.

I am sorry that the OP's bf felt this way. Back in the 60's we did have to breed to replace our dogs that died working or who had to be retired early because the work was so hard (then they got to hang out on the porch - we had 20 dogs at one time!), but we don't have to do that anymore.

threedogpack
Nov. 28, 2009, 05:19 PM
this is a question for all the outraged members posting to this thread.

what do you think the fallout will be for the OP when she is repeatedly told how irresponsible her bf and she are? do you she will just shut up and never ask for help again?

Telling her that she's XYZ bad, will not stop the b/f, if breeding is what he wants to do. It probably just means that if there is a problem, she won't ask for help. If you disagree with her practices, that's fine, but you can alienate someone or you can help them and how you approach it can be the difference.

I cannot control who breeds what (and in this case the puppies are already here), but I can control how *I* present the information that might help to make a bad situation from getting worse.

Simkie
Nov. 28, 2009, 06:05 PM
I certainly agree with all of those on this thread who are just shocked anyone would breed an unpapered, unproven dog. I also just don't get the "we didn't know she was covered" thing. I have an unspayed 10 year old bitch (she is only unspayed because she was shown for several years, and her little sister had a horrible reaction to anesthesia when we spayed HER) and I have never, ever had any problems ensuring that my dog does not get bred when she comes into heat. It's not even hard. She just doesn't go outside alone.

OP, I really hope you've been able to get the girl to the vet and nothing is seriously wrong.

And a happy story to end with: a coworker mentioned that he'd recently gotten a ACD bitch and was planning on breeding her once. I gently told him that he would need to wait until she was at least two, that he would need to get her hips, elbow and eyes evaluated, and how important it was to PROVE that she was worth breeding in some way. I also sent him some literature on what kind of healthcare issues and risks come with not spaying. He is getting her spayed at 6 months :D

danceronice
Nov. 28, 2009, 06:18 PM
Maybe the OP will ask a vet next time (and hopefully tell her bf not just a bunch of people on a message board but a DVM said "There's no reason to breed this dog.")

MistyBlue
Nov. 28, 2009, 06:31 PM
It's a Catch 22 situation...support and give medical advice on the sketchy info OP is providing online and hope like hell the info you give will help rather than cause further harm....and also keep giving medical advice on a dog nobody else has seen and have it help and then there's the chance the OP and her BF figure that this BB is a *much* easier and cheaper solution than going to the vet so they can actually just avoid vets altogether and with the free vet advice online they can just keep breeding. Why not? No repercussions and it's free and the medical advice is free now too! Wow, maybe they can pocket some money in the future by free breeding and no vet checks on mixed who-knows-what large breed pupppies! :rolleyes:
There's a reason you yell at kids who do foolish things...to keep everyone safe. Same with animal neglect.

threedogpack
Nov. 28, 2009, 06:39 PM
It's a Catch 22 situation...support and give medical advice on the sketchy info OP is providing online and hope like hell the info you give will help rather than cause further harm....and also keep giving medical advice on a dog nobody else has seen and have it help and then there's the chance the OP and her BF figure that this BB is a *much* easier and cheaper solution than going to the vet so they can actually just avoid vets altogether and with the free vet advice online they can just keep breeding. Why not? No repercussions and it's free and the medical advice is free now too! Wow, maybe they can pocket some money in the future by free breeding and no vet checks on mixed who-knows-what large breed pupppies! :rolleyes:
There's a reason you yell at kids who do foolish things...to keep everyone safe. Same with animal neglect.

Maybe it's just me, but I kinda thought that if someone is asking, I'd answer their question. It's quite a jump from asking for advice and getting multiple replies of "see the vet" to free advice = keep breeding.

All the yelling has never shut down a puppy mill yet....(and I don't think the OP is a puppy mill, just an owner), but whatever. Just saying, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Susan P
Nov. 28, 2009, 06:53 PM
Oh Jaegermonster, you are making way too much sense, LOL. We all love our cute little puppies and kittens and cuddling them, why do we need to worry about the crowded shelters and the pets that are daily euthanized for lack of homes??? Let's just do what FEELS good and what makes us happy.

:rolleyes: isn't that what life is about?




Agreed so far with just about everyone.
As I sit here with my 10 farm dogs, all rescues or fosters that never left, and and extra 3 current fosters who were part of a large group slated to be PTS at the local animal control on Wednesday for the sole reason that there was not enough room at the inn.
Y'all are right, as long as there are ignorant people who are lax about getting their dogs spayed/neutered and people insist on this designer dog labradoodle, daneador or whatever the hell other two dogs they can stick together the pet overpopulation problem will never stop.

And yes, every dog on my farm is spayed/neutered, and microchipped, gets revolution once a month and sees the vet at least once a year for shots.

You could give some people all the money in the world and they still couldn't buy a clue, and you can't fix stupid.

Susan P
Nov. 28, 2009, 07:07 PM
I agree, that is the purpose of breeding, to improve the breed not to create a need for homes for more crossbred dogs. When you consider that the people taking those 10 puppies might have gone to rescue a dog from a shelter instead I think it's unacceptable to be so irresponsible to even consider allowing a crossbred dog not be be spayed by the age of 6 months.

If I had a boyfriend who insisted on breeding a crossbred dog or any dog that wasn't top show quality he wouldn't be my boyfriend for long. I like to know that I am with someone who has better judgement.

Just remember when you post something as ridiculous as this comment instead of just taking the dog to the vet you might expect some criticism. Just take the poor dog to the vet for crying out loud and get off the stupid computer. You will probably have a big vet bill, but your boyfriend should pay that since it's his dog and his puppies but that's my opinion and not my concern.

I've spent too much time and money rescuing dogs and cats to be ignoring these kinds of posts. It's not harmless, it hurts animals and people who care about them.





I have to comment as a breeder. The purpose of breeding is to match or improve upon the breed. I am dumbfounded why anyone would breed or allow the breeding of a non purebred dog, no matter how pretty, wonderful or pleasing in temperament. Sorry, but there is no such thing as an accident. I am with those that are critical of your bf in even thinking much less allowing your non purebred dog to be bred. There are shelters full of dogs that need homes that will ever be adopted. In the US, the Bernese Mountain dog breeders are a very small group and are known to be some of the most careful breeders out there. You wouldn't find a single one of those quality breeders allowing an intact male anywhere near an unspayed bitch, ESPECIALLY one that was part Bernese for the very obvious fear that their breed would be diluted. Of course your puppies look like Bernese but they do nothing for the breed and are no different than the little mutts that need homes in the shelter.

No doubt these are wonderful puppies but please get your bitch to the vet and get her spayed in 6 weeks. Your bf has had his folly.

Moderator 1
Nov. 29, 2009, 10:11 AM
We're going to close this thread as it's not really farm-related and folks have had lots of opportunity to provide their input and opinions.

Thanks,
Mod 1