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NMK
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:06 PM
Test A Movement #6 "KXM Change ren, giving and taking the reins forward over X for 5 meters"

Does that mean a mini stretch from X to the quarter line (approx)? Or 2.5 meters before X to 2.5 meters after?

Nancy

Miriam
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:32 PM
I read it not as a mini-stretch, but a test of self-carriage lasting from 2.5 meters before X to 2.5 meters afterwards. Interested to hear what everyone else thought.

caevent
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:34 PM
I read it not as a mini-stretch, but a test of self-carriage lasting from 2.5 meters before X to 2.5 meters afterwards. Interested to hear what everyone else thought.

Ditto what you said!

HER
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:46 PM
So everything should remain the same as you give the reins and take them back? They should not stretch forward and down?
I thought it was over x so 2.5 meters before to 2.5 meters after but I don't know for sure either.
Helen

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 24, 2009, 04:07 PM
Test A Movement #6 "KXM Change ren, giving and taking the reins forward over X for 5 meters"

Does that mean a mini stretch from X to the quarter line (approx)? Or 2.5 meters before X to 2.5 meters after?

Nancy


I think this is the same (or similar) to the CCI* test. It is to show self carriage...not a stretch. You want to put your hands forward and not have them change.

It's over X so I agree with everyone else....2.5 meter before and after X (5 meters is about 16 feet......would that be about 2-3 trot steps?)

CMCEventer
Nov. 24, 2009, 04:10 PM
Has anyone heard if the USEA has plans to produce another DVD of the tests, like they did for the current tests? I use it all the time, and my students love it too!
Maybe this time they would offer the test ride to a variety of special riders/horses - something like, "hey, congratulations, you were last year's high point Novice level Amateur Rider, would you ride in the DVD production to show everyone how to ride the new Novice test A?" That would be fun!

NMK
Nov. 24, 2009, 04:35 PM
Ah, no stretch, it's the "fluff" check. Nice. I would like to see those rides on DVD too. I think the P tests for 2010 are so much better than in the last ones. Ditto on that Training B test as well.

Nancy

Lone
Nov. 24, 2009, 06:12 PM
I'm certainly not riding at that level yet, so this may be a dumb question- but how does the horse know it isn't supposed to be stretching and reaching forward into the contact when you push the rein forward?

retreadeventer
Nov. 24, 2009, 06:55 PM
Ah, Lone,
The $64 million dollar question.

This is the essence of teaching balance. When you start a young horse, to encourage them to understand the balance we expect (i.e., "self-carriage"), we teach the horse in the classical fashion to accept the bridle - and carry the bit in his mouth with a light contact. When the horse seeks the contact, they sort of push on the bit a little - and a sensitive rider allows the contact and encourages it with an always-soft-and-steady hand, and seat, or leg as needed to jump a jump, or bend, or transition.
You want your horse to always be in your hand - so that when you push your hand forward, he automatically comes forward to keep the bit in that slight tension path - this is how you can collect and extend and make it look effortless! It's the secret method to balance, and seeing a distance, and the coffin canter, and flying changes, and beautiful riding!
To teach this takes a good upper level instructor who has made a few advanced horses and ridden dressage at an upper level - and lots of patience. I start my young horses at the walk accepting the bit, and it takes many years to get it right and we are always correcting and examining our technique so that the horses understand what we are asking, and we ourselves understand our way forward together.
Hands and legs, hands and legs, balance and rhythm, instruction, instruction - instruction! :)

smokescreen
Nov. 24, 2009, 07:38 PM
Ah, Lone,
The $64 million dollar question.

This is the essence of teaching balance. When you start a young horse, to encourage them to understand the balance we expect (i.e., "self-carriage"), we teach the horse in the classical fashion to accept the bridle - and carry the bit in his mouth with a light contact. When the horse seeks the contact, they sort of push on the bit a little - and a sensitive rider allows the contact and encourages it with an always-soft-and-steady hand, and seat, or leg as needed to jump a jump, or bend, or transition.
You want your horse to always be in your hand - so that when you push your hand forward, he automatically comes forward to keep the bit in that slight tension path - this is how you can collect and extend and make it look effortless! It's the secret method to balance, and seeing a distance, and the coffin canter, and flying changes, and beautiful riding!
To teach this takes a good upper level instructor who has made a few advanced horses and ridden dressage at an upper level - and lots of patience. I start my young horses at the walk accepting the bit, and it takes many years to get it right and we are always correcting and examining our technique so that the horses understand what we are asking, and we ourselves understand our way forward together.
Hands and legs, hands and legs, balance and rhythm, instruction, instruction - instruction! :)

Or.... You teach them a cue to stretch down and a cue to "hold". I know I will get flamed for it but how else could a horse stretch down one week then move up the next and do a self carriage movement? It isn't a bad or abusive thing. Think about trying to explain how your horse can do walk, trot or walk, canter transitions to a casual trail rider.

HillaryH
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:43 PM
I'm still confused by this. Logically, it seems like the test is looking for uberstreichen . . . to test self-carriage but THEN I read the trusty directives for this movement: "[T]he reach forward (forward?!?) of the neck while maint of balance."

I didn't think the neck really reached fwd in uberstreichen. Here's what Courtney King has to say on the issue of u-streichen v. lower level stretch circle . . . the neck doesn't change in u-streichen in her photos
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/stretchy_circle_050108/ (hope link works; it's good) but this doesn't tell us which one the USEA wants us to show?

joiedevie99
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:49 PM
I haven't seen the test- so no idea whether this test is asking for stretchy chewy or self carriage.

My dressage horse does both in the same ride every day- no need for some cue to hold. If the seat is loose and following, the lower back is relaxed, the upper back is a few degrees in front of the vertical, the elbows are following, and the leg is bumping the horse up into the contact- the horse will stretch down as I give. If I bring my shoulders back to vertical or a degree behind, hold between my shoulder blades, and halt halt with my seat, I can throw my reins away and nothing changes. I may be explaining this terribly, but essentially I stop encouraging the reach with my seat and leg, and use my shoulder and seat to "hold" instead of my hands. If I don't say hold with any aid, horse stretches to the bit. This movement his in the 3rd level tests. You give one the inside rein away for a few strides on either side of the centerline on a circle in tests 1 and 2, and you give both reins away on the circle in test 3. In straight dressage tests, stretchy chewy is tested at the trot at first level. Self carriage is tested at the canter at third level.

smokescreen
Nov. 25, 2009, 08:45 AM
I haven't seen the test- so no idea whether this test is asking for stretchy chewy or self carriage.

My dressage horse does both in the same ride every day- no need for some cue to hold. If the seat is loose and following, the lower back is relaxed, the upper back is a few degrees in front of the vertical, the elbows are following, and the leg is bumping the horse up into the contact- the horse will stretch down as I give. If I bring my shoulders back to vertical or a degree behind, hold between my shoulder blades, and halt halt with my seat, I can throw my reins away and nothing changes. I may be explaining this terribly, but essentially I stop encouraging the reach with my seat and leg, and use my shoulder and seat to "hold" instead of my hands. If I don't say hold with any aid, horse stretches to the bit. This movement his in the 3rd level tests. You give one the inside rein away for a few strides on either side of the centerline on a circle in tests 1 and 2, and you give both reins away on the circle in test 3. In straight dressage tests, stretchy chewy is tested at the trot at first level. Self carriage is tested at the canter at third level.

That is exactly what I am talking about. Your "cue" is just what you described. A "cue" can involve all or some or only one of your aids.

purplnurpl
Nov. 25, 2009, 10:10 AM
I haven't seen the test- so no idea whether this test is asking for stretchy chewy or self carriage.

My dressage horse does both in the same ride every day- no need for some cue to hold. If the seat is loose and following, the lower back is relaxed, the upper back is a few degrees in front of the vertical, the elbows are following, and the leg is bumping the horse up into the contact- the horse will stretch down as I give. If I bring my shoulders back to vertical or a degree behind, hold between my shoulder blades, and halt halt with my seat, I can throw my reins away and nothing changes. I may be explaining this terribly, but essentially I stop encouraging the reach with my seat and leg, and use my shoulder and seat to "hold" instead of my hands. If I don't say hold with any aid, horse stretches to the bit. This movement his in the 3rd level tests. You give one the inside rein away for a few strides on either side of the centerline on a circle in tests 1 and 2, and you give both reins away on the circle in test 3. In straight dressage tests, stretchy chewy is tested at the trot at first level. Self carriage is tested at the canter at third level.

augh.
I suck.

Hilary
Nov. 25, 2009, 10:24 AM
I think that's a tough question for a Prelim test - it's in the THIRD level tests in straight dressage.

Otherwise Prelim is mostly 1st level with counter canter.

But as far as 'how does the horse know', because you do give different cues. I ask my mare to stretch down one way and I've only begun experimenting with the self-carraige stuff but what Joiedevive said about holding with your body and not asking for a stretch but giving the reins. (but in real life it means If I give more than an inch for more than 2 seconds we fall on our heads)

Fortuntaely we have a while to work on this.

I do love the idea of videos of the test, to help.

EventingDiva
Nov. 25, 2009, 10:44 AM
Has anyone heard if the USEA has plans to produce another DVD of the tests, like they did for the current tests? I use it all the time, and my students love it too!
Maybe this time they would offer the test ride to a variety of special riders/horses - something like, "hey, congratulations, you were last year's high point Novice level Amateur Rider, would you ride in the DVD production to show everyone how to ride the new Novice test A?" That would be fun!

Great idea! I would a DVD of the new tests. I love the idea of using high point riders and such too.

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:09 AM
I think that's a tough question for a Prelim test - it's in the THIRD level tests in straight dressage.



It already is in Prelim....it was in the CCI* tests this past year.

The difference for me is in the seat....I hold with my thighs and seat a little more bascially keeping the half halt with the seat. Most if not all of the 'stretchy' circles at the trot are in posting...so that alone is a very different ride but even if it was sitting, you just soften your leg/thigh and soften/lighten your seat and they should stretch down.....of course not all my horses are good at this...and some will stretch down and not ever come back up;) But hell...if I can do it (and I do really suck at dressage)...it isn't that hard.

retreadeventer
Nov. 25, 2009, 07:48 PM
I'm still confused by this. Logically, it seems like the test is looking for uberstreichen . . . to test self-carriage but THEN I read the trusty directives for this movement: "[T]he reach forward (forward?!?) of the neck while maint of balance."

I didn't think the neck really reached fwd in uberstreichen. Here's what Courtney King has to say on the issue of u-streichen v. lower level stretch circle . . . the neck doesn't change in u-streichen in her photos
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/stretchy_circle_050108/ (hope link works; it's good) but this doesn't tell us which one the USEA wants us to show?

I think 9-10am Friday morning of the convention Sally O'Connor (who I believe helps to write these tests) will be giving a seminar on the new tests with Susan Graham White. That is scheduled anyhow. I hope I can either get to it or get someone else to listen and perhaps we'll find out.

DustInTime04
Nov. 25, 2009, 08:40 PM
Someone mentioned it in a post above, but what it's asking you to do is uberstreichen. It's a release to show self carriage, but not a stretch. So if the horse is truely 'on the aids' and with help from holding with your core, he shouldn't stretch.

Dr. Doolittle
Nov. 25, 2009, 09:25 PM
I think 9-10am Friday morning of the convention Sally O'Connor (who I believe helps to write these tests) will be giving a seminar on the new tests with Susan Graham White. That is scheduled anyhow. I hope I can either get to it or get someone else to listen and perhaps we'll find out.

That sounds like something worth attending (if I'm going to spend the $$ on one day anyway ;)), especially if there is something else later that day as well.

Yes, it does sound like they are asking for uberstreichen, though the challenge of this (in the case of this particular test) is that they are asking for it over X, in the middle of a diagonal--where horses may be more inclined to be thinking "lengthening". It would be easier if the horse were on a circle, and already on the outside rein. JMO...