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View Full Version : spinoff on 'dangerous riding': is it really like pornography? (video included)



JER
Nov. 23, 2009, 04:04 AM
In other words (actually, the words of Potter Stewart), do you know it when you see it?

On the other thread, we discussed a horse with an unorthodox jumping style but a very clean XC record getting E'd at Pau for simply going the way he rolls.

What about a rider with an unorthodox style?

So I present to you Exhibit A. No, this isn't XC but close enough -- it's the Hickstead Derby, with massive fences and a famous bank. This combination was very successful in their day and even survived an unforgettable moment the previous year when the horse jumped off the top of the bank.

As the BBC announcer says at the start of the video, hang on to your hats.

Annette Lewis & Tutein, Hickstead 1986 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ0WHIOQayQ)

:)

ohhthatgirl
Nov. 23, 2009, 05:19 AM
Ugh, its too early/late for me to comment. (Spent a long night in the studio and need to go to bed, haha.) But I wanted to include this video as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMiCyoRzYM

Enjoy a few laughs, maybe cringe a little (or a lot), and pardon the cheesey music.
(And if you don't want to watch the whole thing, at least watch 3:15.)

PaddyUK
Nov. 23, 2009, 06:20 AM
Her jumping style certainly gave us many hours of entertainment here in the UK.

I always had an urge to tie her stirrups to her girth:lol: Symmetry straps would never have stood a chance, they would have pinged off at the first jump.

She once said in an interview that she rode him in that fashion to keep as much weight as possible off his back. I have to say, on other rides, the style was no where near as flamboyant.

Paddy

enjoytheride
Nov. 23, 2009, 07:12 AM
Wouldn't her weight come down on his back harder when she regained her stirrups on the landing side?

jumpsnake
Nov. 23, 2009, 08:01 AM
Looks pretty ugly to me. I'm not sure she could have made it around XC with that horse/ style-- not knocking her really, but she was fighting him so much! That bothered me far more than her 'jumping' position!

ThirdCharm
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:30 AM
No wonder he's so rank.

Jennifer

ArthurGuinness
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:49 AM
This horse is a saint! Imagine what he could do with someone who could accually ride him! Who needs to ride with their leg if they can rip their horse's face off!!

Hilary
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:58 AM
Well to me the horse looked exceptionally difficult. And the rider appeared to be making good decisions about when to be slow and when to tell him to move out. Her equitation left a lot to be desired but so does Richard Spooner's.

Dangerous? the horse was more dangerous than the rider, I think. She was coping with what was going on underneath her and not everyone gets to create their own "goes in a snaffle quietly at all times" horse. Although she could probably shorten her stirrups a hair.

Flame away.

Gry2Yng
Nov. 23, 2009, 10:45 AM
Well, it fits my definition of porn, "offensive". I don't know that it is dangerous in my book.

keepthelegend
Nov. 23, 2009, 11:08 AM
OMG - watch 1988 when her REINS BREAK!!

twofatponies
Nov. 23, 2009, 11:50 AM
Why bother with a horse that is that difficult? I can't imagine enjoying the challenge.

What I find porny is not the "offensiveness" of blooper/bad ride videos, but the way they appeal to people's love of staring at pictures/movies and saying "wow, check that out" or "my god, that can't be real!" etc. :D

nappingonthejob
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:11 PM
I liked Michelle Lewis's 1988 round...sort of relevant since we're often talking about the wisdom or not of getting on and continuing. Pretty funny! (And if we're talking "dangerous riding", I found Michelle's style of loosy-goosy-gunning it between fences more "offensive" than Annette's unusual equitation)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCnlKfPgaJk&NR=1

red squirrel ridge
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:51 PM
I just watched the 1988 video and OH MY GOSH :eek:
Neither video looked at all pleasant or even mildly enjoyable. She must have nerves of steel or be completely mad. Its no wonder her reins broke she was sawing the heck out of her horses mouth.

riderboy
Nov. 23, 2009, 01:55 PM
Ugh, its too early/late for me to comment. (Spent a long night in the studio and need to go to bed, haha.) But I wanted to include this video as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMiCyoRzYM

Enjoy a few laughs, maybe cringe a little (or a lot), and pardon the cheesey music.
(And if you don't want to watch the whole thing, at least watch 3:15.) How in the heck is this guy catching so much air? Not to mention staying on. Seriously, why is this guy coming so far out of the saddle?

nomeolvides
Nov. 23, 2009, 02:08 PM
Why bother with a horse that is that difficult? I can't imagine enjoying the challenge.
Well... a difficult horse with talent to compete at a high level!

JER
Nov. 23, 2009, 06:27 PM
Tutein may have been unconventional but he was certainly honest. And he and Annette had a partnership worked out for sure.

But what makes this not dangerous?

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 23, 2009, 06:56 PM
Tutein may have been unconventional but he was certainly honest. And he and Annette had a partnership worked out for sure.

But what makes this not dangerous?


nothing....but then jumping horses, riding horses...hell being around horses is dangerous.

And today...that combination might not have been allowed to continue...and they may not have been competitive either (he didn't look like the most ridable of horses and today's courses require more ridability).

Not saying it is right or wrong...just today, there seems to be a different standard as to what is acceptable.

Gry2Yng
Nov. 23, 2009, 07:54 PM
Tutein may have been unconventional but he was certainly honest. And he and Annette had a partnership worked out for sure.

But what makes this not dangerous?

Cause I know it when I see it, and to me, this pair has worked out a way of getting the job done. Can't be asked to actually define dangerous riding - right!?!?!

Horse is good with both his front end and his back. Rider stays basically in the middle of him, she does have some control, even if he is fighting it, he is on his hocks the whole time. Is it pretty - no, but at no time do I think they are in danger of turning over or running thru the jumps. I also think she could turn away from a fence and stop if she wanted.

ValleyMiss
Nov. 23, 2009, 07:58 PM
It me that is dangerous riding. Anyone else notice the bit she had on that horse? It was noticable in the 1988 video after her rein broke. Double twisted wire. No wonder the horse jumps like he does, she's constantly sawing on his mouth and she never lets him really use his head and neck to get over a fence. What I really think is dangerous is the way that horse would not stop for her. I can drop the reins on my upper level event mare and stop her just by sitting back and giving a little tug on her breastplate. She's an OTTB, and a very keen jumper. And yet she will stop in a situation like that. That horse was running people over and completely out of control.

Personally I think that's what shows dangerous riding, if the rider has control.

archieflies
Nov. 23, 2009, 08:37 PM
Personally I think that's what shows dangerous riding, if the rider has control.

If that's how you define it, then what about the situations where the rider has control, but is asking the horse to do dangerous things? A stupid rider in control is every bit as dangerous in my book.

Although I agree that this looked fairly dangerous!

And I haven't really seen a lot of Hickstead footage before... is it common to have so many rails? The jumps are huge, so it wouldn't surprise me... but in a typical show, having that many faults would hardly define a successful pair.

EventerAJ
Nov. 23, 2009, 08:57 PM
I'm with Hilary and Gry on this one. Was it pretty? Not at all. Was it effective? To some degree, but not much. It's not something I'd care to watch again. But was it "dangerous riding"? Not to me.

She looked in control of herself and doing the best she could on a very difficult horse. And while I certainly don't encourage the super-long stirrups, pinching knees, and flailing lower legs... she was mostly in balance with her horse and not really interfering with him. I have not seen her or her horse enough to know if that ride was a "bad day"-- I'd like to hope he is more rideable on a regular basis-- but I wouldn't condemn her for that single round. Certainly NOT a horse I'd choose to ride...but he seemed clever and both were more or less "comfortable" with each other's unorthodoxness. She looks quite calm and relaxed most of the time, trying to ride quietly, and they had several nice fences amongst the ugly ones.

Dangerous riding is NOT JUST what happens in the air over a fence; it's the cumulation of what happens in between and *before* the fences, and the decisions made from those failures. JMHO.

(that second video-- the horrific man on the saintly dapple gray-- now THAT is dangerous riding!! Yikes!)

Gry2Yng
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:01 PM
Just watched the 88 video. Flame suit on. yes, what happened after the rein broke was dangerous, but no more so than in any situation where the horse is fired up and galloping and a rein breaks. Valley Miss, you are a lucky gal that your ul horse would stop, mine wouldn't. He would run like a demon set free from hell if my rein broke at 570 mpm on an intermediate xc course. Annette did a BRILLIANT job riding that out and getting the horse turned. She probably would have had him even if her brother hadn't stepped in. ( Person stepped in front of horse, horse did not run into person.)

Seems to me the horse looks more broke in 88 than in 86. As far as double twisted wires go, lots of hunters with top form go in them. The bit is irrelevant, tho I am not surprised the reins broke, their was a lot of wear and tear on them. I'd imagine she went through a set or two. :D

Blugal
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:10 PM
Personally I think that's what shows dangerous riding, if the rider has control.

Sounds like it's past time to yellow-card Anky, after a few notable awards ceremonies! ;)

SuperSTB
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:21 PM
Honestly (since there have been many of these threads) IMHO- it doesn't matter if the rider is legit
or gets the job done
or has a saint of a horse
or a beast of a horse
or how high the rider throws them self out of the saddle
or how entertaining it is
or how their weight does or doesn't impact whatever...

Why the hell can't the rider just ride proper equitation and be done with it?

Gry2Yng
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:48 PM
Why the hell can't the rider just ride proper equitation and be done with it?

They have a class for that. It is comprised mostly skinny teenage girls. (With skills and lower legs to die for I might add.) She didn't enter that one. Rules say all she has to do is leave the jumps up. Kind of like eventing - no points for style. :D

Ajierene
Nov. 23, 2009, 11:33 PM
That's a good point Gry2yng, but she didn't leave the jumps up.

That's the first thing that stood out for me, well, very first was her riding style, then I compared it to the amount of rails that were taken down.

Most of the rails were just nicks - where a solid jump would have sent wood flying, but some - especially the first jump of the triple, looked like the horse hit the rails squarely with his cannon bones - would have likely sent a him into a rotational fall if it was a solid jump.

Here is a horse from the jump off at the same year...clear round - it can be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CXifixgrKg&feature=related

Annette's 1988 ride is slightly better, but the inability to even just turn the horse when she first loses her rein is a big indicator for me.

OK, the above was my initial reaction to the 1988 video, then I looked at it again. She grabbed his bridle, specifically to steer him to the last jump - where he hit a rail hard enough to break it in two, from what I saw.

Rails, difficulty in rating the horse, asking a horse to jump the rider cannot possibly have proper control. I consider this rider dangerous. She and her horse need to go back to basics.

I don't care how talented the horse is - this still may not be the right job for him. I still am not convinced that Salinero is really cut out for dressage, either.

Gry2Yng
Nov. 23, 2009, 11:42 PM
That's a good point Gry2yng, but she didn't leave the jumps up.



No, but she had a shot at winning something in the class she entered. Not much hope in an eq class. ;) Would also hope she realizes this would NOT be the horse to jump over solid obstacles - or maybe he would be more careful - whose to say.

Your post certainly has some valid points and I can't say I would fight to the death on whether this is or is not dangerous riding. It is an interesting discussion, that is for sure.

Also, AJ - great website. Fun video, love the music and I have to say - usually I hate music with my horse videos.

JER
Nov. 24, 2009, 12:06 AM
re: knockdowns at Hickstead

Clear rounds are rare -- very rare -- in the Hickstead Derby. In the 49 runnings of the class, there have been 50 clear rounds total.

The big trouble spot is the ingenious Devil's Dyke. You can see it up close and personal at 2:48 on this video coursewalk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rs2DCEVgV8). Most horses make a hash of it, even ones ridden by riders with good eq.

Ajierene
Nov. 24, 2009, 12:07 AM
Aww....and I was all ready with the mud pit and everything! Bets were lined up...


Though you and I are a GREAT example of what's wrong with the 'dangerous riding' rules - way to open.

Other rules, such as elimination due to falling off, may have parties on both side of the 'fairness' and 'sportsmanship' of all that, but it is still a clear rule that some teenaged, volunteer, shivering in the rain, jump judge can rule on and tell that awe-inspiring Olympic rider what the verdict is. Dangerous riding...not so much.

Robby Johnson
Nov. 24, 2009, 12:58 AM
Well to me the horse looked exceptionally difficult. And the rider appeared to be making good decisions about when to be slow and when to tell him to move out. Her equitation left a lot to be desired but so does Richard Spooner's.

Dangerous? the horse was more dangerous than the rider, I think. She was coping with what was going on underneath her and not everyone gets to create their own "goes in a snaffle quietly at all times" horse. Although she could probably shorten her stirrups a hair.

Flame away.

I agree that he looks quite difficult. He looks very sore to me - his stabby way of going is perhaps more of an indicator of the way he feels, and encourages her to clutch onto him even more.

I think it's dangerous. He rolled quite a few fences that, had they been stationary, might not have ended as successfully.

nomeolvides
Nov. 24, 2009, 07:23 AM
And I haven't really seen a lot of Hickstead footage before... is it common to have so many rails? The jumps are huge, so it wouldn't surprise me... but in a typical show, having that many faults would hardly define a successful pair.
Yes it is common to have fences down; clear rounds are very rare in the Hickstead Derby. The course is very long and includes hills that you can't see on the screen, along with the massive fences and ditches. The Derby is by no means a "typical show" ;)

Trixie
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:20 AM
No, but she had a shot at winning something in the class she entered. Not much hope in an eq class. Would also hope she realizes this would NOT be the horse to jump over solid obstacles - or maybe he would be more careful - whose to say.

Who’s to argue she wouldn’t have had a better shot of winning something in this class if she’d ridden with correct equitation, though?

I didn't like watching, at all. It was scary, and yes, in my book, dangerous.

JER
Nov. 24, 2009, 12:40 PM
Who’s to argue she wouldn’t have had a better shot of winning something in this class if she’d ridden with correct equitation, though?

Except that in 1986, Annette Lewis won the Hickstead Derby Trial (the warm-up class) on Tutein.

video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsLzRdm0y2o)

LKF
Nov. 24, 2009, 01:00 PM
Her stirrups were so long that she has to stand on her toes. The only fence that seemed to have the correct leg and heel aids that we're accustom to was the Liverpool - It was really interesting footage and I feel so sorry for her wonderful horse. Would love to hear G. Morris' comments.

FrittSkritt
Nov. 24, 2009, 01:13 PM
I'm surprised she didn't accidentally kick herself in the ass over each fence with those flying heels of hers.

Trixie
Nov. 24, 2009, 01:23 PM
There are always flukes :) Sometimes those flukes are talented horses that won't dump you in spite of the fact that spectators are horrified.

I've found that most of us mere mortals have a better shot of doing well if we start out with a correct foundation.

rabicon
Nov. 24, 2009, 01:30 PM
Not to sure if its dangerous riding, well maybe dangerous for her if the horse decided to stop or run out but not really for the horse. Except for the fact that I'm a firm believer that how you ride a horse makes the horse. There are many hot hard horses out there that people ride, some of the top horses are, but riding correctly and not slamming them in the back over every jump does a lot to help a horse not be worried and rush everything, like this horse does. Also jumping so far ahead, no wonder the horse has so many rails down and even in her clear round she knocked a few of those (just luck they didn't come down). I'd like to see her ride that horse over a course of 3' jumps, I'd be willing to bet the horse would have rails at that height also just because of the riding.

So, if someone on this board rode this horse at 3'6 and put this video up for critique what would you say??? Go back to flat work. Lots of it until the horse comes back and then add jumps to it, also work without irons and in two point, shorten your irons and teach proper half halts. Right???? Just because she has money to compete in these levels at the time and could get the job done at times doesn't mean its right and doesn't mean there isn't something missing in the relationship with this horse and rider. If you saw someone on here post something like this people would flame that person beyond belief because they are a noname, but this person, well its not that bad. Sorry it just doesn't make since to me.

JER
Nov. 24, 2009, 01:42 PM
Just because she has money to compete in these levels at the time and could get the job done at times doesn't mean its right and doesn't mean there isn't something missing in the relationship with this horse and rider.

This is a complete misunderstanding of the case at hand. Annette Lewis came from a working horsey family. She and her sister rode 'unusual' horses -- in other words, the ones with talent that would never sell.

Today, Annette Lewis is a BSJA-accredited coach. You can see her teaching in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYu4xQdMMPA); she teaches correct principles of riding.

Blugal
Nov. 24, 2009, 01:59 PM
To play devil's advocate (and stray from the topic of Annette a little bit):

The British often don't have picture-perfect equitation. They also often have a "go out and get it done" attitude. Pick up any Horse and Hound magazine and you'll see tons of pictures of riders over show jumps with their legs up by the horse's croup. You'll see pictures of 10 year old kids riding ponies over 3'6" courses. You'll see pictures of team-chasing.

I don't want to make a trite generalization about dangerous riding vs. position. But I would like to observe that sometimes, a forward, "get out there" attitude serves the purpose of safe riding much more than a "stay in the ring until you're perfect over 3' courses" attitude does. There is value to learning to ride by the seat of your pants, to ride when things aren't perfect, and to learn to deal with situations, and to do so without a trainer holding your hand.

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 24, 2009, 01:59 PM
My understanding was that she didn't ride that way on her other rides. It was a style she adopted for this particular horse.

If you look...I didn't see her slaming on landing on the back of her horse. It just looked like she would pivot on her knee and take her leg off him...way off him. On landing, she had her leg back under herself.

I get that he is an unusual horse...but it does seem a bit extreme...and in my mind, a more dangerous style. But that was back in the day when a rider could more or less do what it took to get the job done.

It just seems to me that if you have to adjust your style to that extreme....I would be questioning whether this horse is really cut out for this job.....but that is the job of the rider to make that call.

Do people think she would be allowed to compete with that style today?

I wonder if she would herself knowning what she knows now?

I honestly don't buy that such a style would make the horse jump better...but at the time, she obviously thought it did.

rabicon
Nov. 24, 2009, 02:07 PM
Yes, but you still have to have some money to pay entires for these competitions and to travel to it with horse in tow. Its not like going an hour or two away from home and showing at a A rated jumper show. Its not cheap. She can stay on, and I give her that. I just don't see how :lol: Props for riding the "unsual horses", but I still stand by just because she can make it around doesn't mean its right. ;) The video didn't really change much, its a clinic with someone that can ride well. She maybe able to teach, not sure but I'm just commenting on what I saw. I'm not perfect, by NO means :lol: But we all have opinions and you know what they say about those. :lol:

JER
Nov. 24, 2009, 02:16 PM
My understanding was that she didn't ride that way on her other rides. It was a style she adopted for this particular horse.

Annette Lewis on Go Easy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98DSs7gJksw)

Different style? Well, not as extreme, perhaps.

I agree with Blugal here on the value of getting the job done.

But I would like to observe that sometimes, a forward, "get out there" attitude serves the purpose of safe riding much more than a "stay in the ring until you're perfect over 3' courses" attitude does. There is value to learning to ride by the seat of your pants, to ride when things aren't perfect, and to learn to deal with situations, and to do so without a trainer holding your hand.

The key, IMO, is balance. You can have your heels down, leg in textbook position, etc and still not truly be in balance with the motion of your horse.

JER
Nov. 24, 2009, 02:22 PM
Its not like going an hour or two away from home and showing at a A rated jumper show.

It is like going an hour or two away from home. Annette Lewis was based in Essex; Hickstead is in Sussex. The drive would take between 1 1/2 and 2 hours. :)

Oh to live in the UK....

rabicon
Nov. 24, 2009, 02:32 PM
:lol: K my bad, but is that the only place she showed?

Mr. Jig
Nov. 24, 2009, 02:40 PM
This horse is a saint! Imagine what he could do with someone who could accually ride him! Who needs to ride with their leg if they can rip their horse's face off!!

That is an understatement! That was by far the most bizzare thing I have ever seen, the second video that is, I couldn't see the first...... Oh Vey!

Trixie
Nov. 24, 2009, 02:53 PM
Are you really getting the job done as effectively as possible if you're using that much hand, and going around that choppy?

There's something to be said for getting the job done well, also.

SuperSTB
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:01 PM
Not to sure if its dangerous riding, well maybe dangerous for her if the horse decided to stop or run out but not really for the horse. Except for the fact that I'm a firm believer that how you ride a horse makes the horse. There are many hot hard horses out there that people ride, some of the top horses are, but riding correctly and not slamming them in the back over every jump does a lot to help a horse not be worried and rush everything, like this horse does. Also jumping so far ahead, no wonder the horse has so many rails down and even in her clear round she knocked a few of those (just luck they didn't come down). I'd like to see her ride that horse over a course of 3' jumps, I'd be willing to bet the horse would have rails at that height also just because of the riding.

So, if someone on this board rode this horse at 3'6 and put this video up for critique what would you say??? Go back to flat work. Lots of it until the horse comes back and then add jumps to it, also work without irons and in two point, shorten your irons and teach proper half halts. Right???? Just because she has money to compete in these levels at the time and could get the job done at times doesn't mean its right and doesn't mean there isn't something missing in the relationship with this horse and rider. If you saw someone on here post something like this people would flame that person beyond belief because they are a noname, but this person, well its not that bad. Sorry it just doesn't make since to me.

I absolutely agree- great post BTW.

After watching some of her videos, I had to watch some videos of some great riders in which my eyes and brain didn't hurt so much afterwards. :lol:

Wonders12
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:18 PM
Regardless of if you think the riding is dangers, jumping a fence (in 1988) with NO REIN is definitely dangerous! That's absolutely irresponsible. She had no control over her horse and put herself, the horse, and the spectators in danger doing that. You lose a rein, you pull up (especially when your horse is running off with you) not continue to the next fence.

Blugal
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:20 PM
Dangerous riding? Oh my devil's advocate just can't help itself today. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzUgnhV-EU)

JennieRose
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:24 PM
My first impression was that she didn't necessarily *aim* at the fence, but that the horse locked on and she went with the needs of the moment, she was certainly doing her best to get him under control both before and after. I haven't had a chance to watch it again, though.

I *have* been on a horse when the rein snapped (he was an OTTB and heard some horns, and off we went), and that is something I never, ever, ever want to deal with again, especially because I was on something just off the track, and we hadn't really gotten brakes from the seat installed yet. It took a good few minutes to stop him.

Although I would never attempt to ride like that, I did notice that she always landed with her leg back underneath her and never *banged* on the horse's back, whether she had to get that much swing from her leg, I don't know, but I don't think she's done anything terrible.

I've just moved to the UK from the US--and the "go get it" attitude IS more prevalent here--and, just from my totally amateur point of view--it's kind of fun. But I've also had some very astute critiques of my riding position and style, so...who knows.

That said, I think the dangerous riding concept is tricky. As a jump judge, I saw a number of breath-holding moments where I either thought the horse deserved a medal or the rider a shot of tequila afterwards. Whether we can legislate and codify it? I don't know. Especially with the controversy over a particular horse's jumping style being labelled as "dangerous".

nomeolvides
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:24 PM
:lol: K my bad, but is that the only place she showed?
Actually, she competed internationally aswell.

JER
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:32 PM
Dangerous riding? Oh my devil's advocate just can't help itself today. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzUgnhV-EU)

And while wearing only a ceremonial headpiece.

Blugal
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:35 PM
And while wearing only a ceremonial headpiece.

Yep, this devil's advocate is sharp today :lol:

SuperSTB
Nov. 24, 2009, 03:38 PM
Dangerous riding? Oh my devil's advocate just can't help itself today. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzUgnhV-EU)

you bad... you very bad :D

Ajierene
Nov. 24, 2009, 04:17 PM
My first impression was that she didn't necessarily *aim* at the fence, but that the horse locked on and she went with the needs of the moment, she was certainly doing her best to get him under control both before and after. I haven't had a chance to watch it again, though.


If you look carefully at the video, she leans forward, grabs the bridle and turns the horse right. She goes something like halfway around the arena, aims for the jumps, takes the jump at a flat out run, where her horse hits a pole hard enough to break it. A very few strides after the jump, her hand is only on the left rein. She pulls him in a circle and he stops relatively easily - though running into that person could have helped him stop. He had a look on his face like "why did you get in front of me like that, human?"

She aimed for that jump - she could have pulled the horse up as soon as the rein broke, but she CHOSE to aim for that jump, in the middle of the arena, aimed so that she had to take a right turn to get to it.

As far as David O'Connor goes - he has control over that horse. You see him turning, changing gaits, doing lateral work, etc. If Annette had even just grabbed mane, sat back and was able to rate him, get to the jump and get over the jump well - then I see a point. The fact is that horse started taking off and if that jump were solid (yes, I keep bringing it up because Dangerous Riding is an eventing thing, not a show jumping thing) I can guarantee rider and horse would have parted ways.

She can show jump all she wants with that style, but I doubt she would come home from a similar difficulty cross country course on her own power.

LLDM
Nov. 24, 2009, 05:37 PM
If the idea of dangerous riding is about control, then I would say that that video shows dangerous riding. It certainly would be on a XC course. Maybe this Annette person had general control, but certainly not much accuracy (she lost "straight" quite often and certainly had trouble holding the line of her choice).

After a great deal of thought, I have decided the phrase "dangerous riding" is really not the best phrase for the problem we are trying to solve with it. People react badly to it, in part because it implies that the rider is a poor rider (or even just riding poorly). But what we are trying to prevent is dangerous situations... as much as we (practically) can, on a given day on a given course.

It takes both a cooperating horse and a cooperating rider to have a safe ride. When one or the other is off - due to any reason, internal or external - it can lead to an unusually dangerous round. And if both are off just a bit too much, then it can be unusually dangerous too. And that is the point as I understand it - to try and stop the coming trainwreck, and not just stand there waiting for it to happen.

But people tend to react as if it is a global judgment of the rider ability - as if everyone can't have a super-crappy day no matter how good they normally are. And if we were all so great about judging ourselves then we wouldn't need to pay judges now would we? We could just ask everyone about their round when they were done. :winkgrin: But no, when adrenaline gets up it often takes a more objective viewpoint to see clearly.

SCFarm

Gry2Yng
Nov. 24, 2009, 06:06 PM
It is like going an hour or two away from home. Annette Lewis was based in Essex; Hickstead is in Sussex. The drive would take between 1 1/2 and 2 hours. :)

Oh to live in the UK....

OMG! I was just about to post the SAME thing.

ETA: I like your thoughts LLDM.

nomeolvides
Nov. 24, 2009, 06:19 PM
She can show jump all she wants with that style, but I doubt she would come home from a similar difficulty cross country course on her own power.
Not sure that is entirely relevant seeing as she wasn't doing cross country anyway :confused:

Ajierene
Nov. 24, 2009, 06:42 PM
Not sure that is entirely relevant seeing as she wasn't doing cross country anyway :confused:

I know, I keep going back to it because we are discussing Dangerous Riding, which is purely an Eventing thing. Show Jumpers do not get eliminated for dangerous riding - they just do not win.

The Dangerous Riding rule was developed to assess how likely a person was to injure themselves or their horses, especially out on cross country where the jumps do not fall down. So, if you are going to show me a video and assess it according to the 'Dangerous Riding' rule, then I am going to assess the possibility of the pair making it safely through a cross country course.

ArthurGuinness
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:13 PM
Dangerous riding? Oh my devil's advocate just can't help itself today. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzUgnhV-EU)

I am extremely gullible so please forgive me if you are joking. David O'Connor is an amazing rider. Annette on the other hand is a train wreck!! David is a fine example of riding with your legs seat hips and shoulders while Annette is an example on how to ride with your hands or how not to ride!

In both videos I saw of her, the video of the gray and the bay, both horses looked equally pissed off. Their tails looked like propellers!!

Coppers mom
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:41 PM
Honestly, I think she's horrific on a good day, and extremely dangerous on a bad one. She has absolutely no control, no seat, no stability whatsoever. Like another person said, she's only there because she has the money and saintly horses. She's no different from the ladies who buy PSG horses so they can ride in top hats and tails, or the ones who buy a pre-lim packer and then flop their way around a course. She's no there because of skill, and I think it's sad that as soon as someone gets to X level, they're beyond question because "they must be doing something right". I could go out and jump a GP course like that, but it doesn't mean I know what I'm doing.

JER
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:04 PM
Like another person said, she's only there because she has the money and saintly horses. She's no different from the ladies who buy PSG horses so they can ride in top hats and tails, or the ones who buy a pre-lim packer and then flop their way around a course.

You are incorrect. (I've said this before on this thread but oh well...) Annette Lewis did not come from money and she produced her own horses. Tutein was acknowledged by all to be a 'quirky' ride.

Annette Lewis rode at top level in ponies as well as horses and was selected -- on both ponies and horses -- for international teams.

Coppers mom
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:18 PM
You are incorrect. (I've said this before on this thread but oh well...) Annette Lewis did not come from money and she produced her own horses. Tutein was acknowledged by all to be a 'quirky' ride.

Annette Lewis rode at top level in ponies as well as horses and was selected -- on both ponies and horses -- for international teams.

And all with no money? I think not. No one on a shoe string budget and mediocre horses goes to the biggest shows all over the world.

JER
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:26 PM
And all with no money? I think not. No one on a shoe string budget and mediocre horses goes to the biggest shows all over the world.

The Lewis family had a riding/training/dealing operation in Essex. The kids made their own horses and ponies.

To get to 'the biggest shows in the world' -- like Hickstead or Olympia -- Annette Lewis packed up the lorry and drove for an hour or two. If she was selected for an international team, there'd be funding to get to far-flung places like France and Germany -- which required a couple of hours on the road in the lorry, a ferry ride, then another couple of hours on the road.

(I think you're transposing the current US h/j lifestyle on a 1980s British showjumper.)

ValleyMiss
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:34 PM
[QUOTE=JER;4517462]You are incorrect. (I've said this before on this thread but oh well...) Annette Lewis did not come from money and she produced her own horses. Tutein was acknowledged by all to be a 'quirky' ride.[QUOTE]

Okay so she didn't come from money. She's lucky enough to have saintly horses that didn't chuck her off when she was doing nothing to help them around a course (and IMHO doing everything to hinder them). Just because she produced her own horses doesn't mean she deserves to be there either.

Well said on the dangerous riding LLDM. I do think it's a phrase that invokes some gut reactions from people. It's not necessarily saying you are a bad rider in general. (Although many times you do see a pattern) But maybe at that particular event something else was going on. You didn't get a good night's sleep, your horse is feeling particularly fresh, whatever the case may be. I don't care if you jumped around Rolex perfectly the weekend before, you can still have a bad round. Even to the point of being called dangerous. And if that's the case you should be stopped. Unfortunately those BNRs never get called for dangerous riding and probably never will, even though we've seen them have some gasp-worthy courses. Which is why although I like the concept of DR (stopping the trainwrecks before they happen) the implementation is lacking. It's not applied fairly across the board.

nomeolvides
Nov. 25, 2009, 08:20 AM
And all with no money? I think not. No one on a shoe string budget and mediocre horses goes to the biggest shows all over the world.
That's complete rubbish. You think John Whitaker was also from money?

LLDM
Nov. 25, 2009, 10:35 AM
That's complete rubbish. You think John Whitaker was also from money?

Just curious, if you know her or know a lot about her? Can you explain this rather unorthodox style? Is this really the only way to get the horse around? Does it school well at home and then wig out at competitions? Does it freak out if she keeps her leg on in the air?

Really, I honestly just don't understand how this can be a good thing. But, since I don't know everything, I am certainly open to learning.

We are all taught that good equitation is helpful to the horse and leads to the least interference. Now I realize that exceptions sometimes prove the rule, but I am not really seeing it here. What am I missing?

Oh, and I don't care about the money issue - just trying to understand the riding issue.

SCFarm

Gry2Yng
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:05 AM
Okay so she didn't come from money. She's lucky enough to have saintly horses that didn't chuck her off when she was doing nothing to help them around a course (and IMHO doing everything to hinder them). Just because she produced her own horses doesn't mean she deserves to be there either.



Have you owned or ridden any "quirky" horses? Cause I am not sure that grey is a saint. He looks like a demon to me. Some horses just have to be ridden a certain way and if that horse is what you have in your barn and you want to go to Hickstead and the horse can do the job, then why wouldn't you try to adapt to him. Don't know a single thing about the rider other than from this thread, but she *is* helping that horse. If she is doing nothing else, she is keeping him on his hocks. She is obviously working hard, but there is CERTAINLY plenty of video of riders with much prettier equitation and MUCH BIGGER bits doing the same thing at the top jumper shows in the world. The whole leg thing is wacky, but she is not letting him gallop around on the forehand, which is what half a division of preliminary riders will do at the average horse trial. Add to that, how difficult it is to find a distance to a massive fence when the horse is constantly changing rhythm like that and I can see why they take a rail or two. In fact, at the grob (coffin) the commentator states that only two horses got thru it clear all day.

We talk all the time on this board about our inexpensive self made horses and how great they are. Why is it so tough to believe she got this one on trade cause no one else could ride it and has adapted to his needs in order to stay at the top of the game until the next one comes along.

Who *does* deserve to be there? Only riders and horses who please your eye and your sensibilities? Rather hash to be deciding what someone deserves from 20 years and an ocean away. Hope you aren't there deciding what I deserve when I bring my next quirky OTTB out at BN.

ETA: This is just the sort of "judgement" that got Hilda in such a bad place. Someone didn't like the way her horse went. What are we coming to?

Equestryn
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:32 AM
Okay the David O'Connor thing... I hate to say it but it's not impressive to me. Top level properly trained horses SHOULD respond more to your leg and weight than to the reins. I'm sorry but David O'Connor BETTER be able to do dressage and some jumping without reins. He's fantastic and KNOWS that horses need to respond more to weight and leg aids. People are always so amazed at the bridle-less riding but... look at most upper level Western Pleasure or Reining horses. They've got large curb bits in but NO contact with the rein. It's all weight and leg. The only amazing thing about this is how much money people are willing to pay to watch a horse go around a ring PROPERLY trained.

I'm not going to comment on the Annette Lewis video, that one seems hashed out and I don't know enough about 1980s British Showjumpers to say anything.

On to the second video posted of the rider catching major air. WTF?? THAT horse is a saint. How in the world does someone who rides like that get to that level? That is an atrocity. People are going to see that and say "Hey look, I don't need a solid base or foundation like my trainer says. Who cares what I look like, that guy did it. So can I!" That's what's wrong with people these days. Instant Gratification. They think that they should be able to get on and jump a 4' course after 6 months of basic riding lessons. It just doesn't work that way. That guy needs to go back and jump some cross rails. It's disgusting...

Off the soap box now. Fire Away.

ValleyMiss
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:43 AM
I've ridden my share of quirky horses. I don't care about her leg position over the fence. She can swing it around all she wants, she's going to be the one to get dumped when her horse stops suddenly and she has no base of support. What I don't like is the death grip she has on that horses mouth and the way she does not let him use his head and neck over the fence. Head straight up in the air and hollow back is not a 'quirky' jumping style, it's a dangerous jumping style.

She obviously was able to get around courses successfully. And Congrats to her for being able to do so. My comment was more meant that just because she made the horse herself doesn't automatically give her a ticket to ride in big competitions. Just like the person who goes out and spends $60,000 on a made horse doesn't automatically deserve that either.

You deserve to be there based on how you ride and your accomplishments. Phillip Dutton doesn't have perfect equitation and yet he's one of the best. But this thread was started for a discussion on dangerous riding. I think her riding is dangerous. Yes on the bay horse she doesn't have that unique leg position over fences. But she has the same death grip on the mouth. Both horses are resisting her the entire course. They both jump with their heads up in the air. That's what I think is dangerous. I think it's dangerous to jump a fence after your rein breaks and you have no control.

Blugal
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:47 AM
I posted the O'Connor video for 2 reasons:

1. to show the problem with absolute statements & blanket rules (someone said jumping without reins was dangerous, period); and

2. to show that dangerous riding is very subjective - David and Karen had beautiful control of their horses, but they both chose to ride and jump in hunt caps which are not protective/safety gear in any way.

Equestryn
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:50 AM
Bugal, I know why you posted the David O'Connor video, I was merely commenting on the video itself, not why you posted it.

My bad.

Catalina
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:51 AM
It looks like the only part of her body touching the horse is her hands :eek:. (http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg148/Luxorion/eek.jpg?t=1259164063)

Trixie
Nov. 25, 2009, 12:52 PM
Some horses just have to be ridden a certain way and if that horse is what you have in your barn and you want to go to Hickstead and the horse can do the job, then why wouldn't you try to adapt to him.

He really doesn’t look too happy about doing the job. Is it even worth doing the job if you’re forcibly hauling HARD on his face the whole way around? That doesn’t seem fair to the horse.

You deserve to be there if you can ride safely, competently and do justice to your horse. This particular rider does him no kindness.

JER
Nov. 25, 2009, 01:11 PM
Nice post, Gry2Yng.

Did anyone actually listen to how the BBC announcers were talking about Annette? Raymond Brooks-Ward and Steve Hadley (I think?) knew the sport inside and out. They acknowledged her flamboyant style but also gave her a lot of credit for how she rode the horse.

UK commentators tend to be humorous, insightful and very blunt. (They're nothing like Melanie Smith Taylor.) R B-W would be the first to say 'it's not your day' but usually in much more colorful terms.

grayarabpony
Nov. 25, 2009, 01:31 PM
The horse looks absolutely miserable, and looks like he's doing his best to do his job *in spite* of his rider.

Ja Da Dee
Nov. 25, 2009, 02:33 PM
I'll admit that if I was jjing and saw a similar performance on xc, I would call the TD and have the pair watched.

CoolMeadows
Nov. 26, 2009, 09:02 AM
He was so much more rideable in the 1988 video, even though he was building towards the end. Shame the rein broke but personally I would consider that pair dangerous on XC off the '86 video, the '88 one not really.... but her goal was never to be an event rider so it's a moot point.

Her style's hideously ugly but overall it doesn't bother me so much. It was 80's British showjumping... Harvey Smith and Nick Skelton had more than their fair share of wild rides too. The Whitaker boys were by far the most stylish and quiet riders, Michael the softer of the two. I was 10 for Hickstead '86 and the yard's BHS instructors had all the lesson kids watch it on the lounge TV and used Annette as a "what not to do" example style-wise but they also praised her overall ability and toughness.

Also, that bit wasn't a twisted wire. It was a double snaffle (http://www.horsetackinternational.com/Loose-Ring-Double-Snaffle-Bit.html) though. The exact bit that I used when I was 13 on my freight train, hot, 4 year old... under the tutelage of a BHS Fellow! :eek: It was a more seat of the pants system at that time and still is as compared to the American system.

CoolMeadows
Nov. 26, 2009, 08:25 PM
The rail didn't break in two. Those are short rails, and he took out both the top rail and the one under it due to being too close. No comment on her finishing the last jump with 1/2 a rein on one side and disorganized (!) approach but the rest of the ride was fairly accurate.



She grabbed his bridle, specifically to steer him to the last jump - where he hit a rail hard enough to break it in two, from what I saw.

TXnGA
Nov. 26, 2009, 08:28 PM
Have you owned or ridden any "quirky" horses? Cause I am not sure that grey is a saint. He looks like a demon to me. Some horses just have to be ridden a certain way and if that horse is what you have in your barn and you want to go to Hickstead and the horse can do the job, then why wouldn't you try to adapt to him. Don't know a single thing about the rider other than from this thread, but she *is* helping that horse. If she is doing nothing else, she is keeping him on his hocks. She is obviously working hard, but there is CERTAINLY plenty of video of riders with much prettier equitation and MUCH BIGGER bits doing the same thing at the top jumper shows in the world. The whole leg thing is wacky, but she is not letting him gallop around on the forehand, which is what half a division of preliminary riders will do at the average horse trial. Add to that, how difficult it is to find a distance to a massive fence when the horse is constantly changing rhythm like that and I can see why they take a rail or two. In fact, at the grob (coffin) the commentator states that only two horses got thru it clear all day.

We talk all the time on this board about our inexpensive self made horses and how great they are. Why is it so tough to believe she got this one on trade cause no one else could ride it and has adapted to his needs in order to stay at the top of the game until the next one comes along.

Who *does* deserve to be there? Only riders and horses who please your eye and your sensibilities? Rather hash to be deciding what someone deserves from 20 years and an ocean away. Hope you aren't there deciding what I deserve when I bring my next quirky OTTB out at BN.

ETA: This is just the sort of "judgement" that got Hilda in such a bad place. Someone didn't like the way her horse went. What are we coming to?

Well said!!!! :winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

CoolMeadows
Nov. 26, 2009, 09:43 PM
Well said!!!! :winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

Ditto that! It's darn near impossible to make a lunging, plunging lunatic look rideable (which she really did in the '88 video before the tack malfunction - heck I'd jump at the shot to ride his '88 version!). When I aged out of the Juniors and was finally ready to show at the A's, with that same hot freight train (now graduated to an eggbutt instead of the double), I realized my fat lil' 15.2 tank was really a Ferrari who was well beyond my talents so I scoped out a second "practice" horse since I needed to jump far more often than he did.

I found a 16.2 Dutch gelding... drop dead gorgeous. Had done the Grand Prix... at 6 years old. Was *out of his gourd* difficult and would kill a dog as soon as look at it, and sidewind/snark/leap plunge 4 strides away from 5' tall and 7' wide. But. $1500 was in my price range (barely!) so I bought him. He did pay me back handsomely in the A/O's, and while I did my best with De Nemethy style gymnastics and flatwork, he was who he was, especially at 14. Did we ever look pretty going around? Probably not. Was there a peanut gallery condemning me for "making that horse go that way"? Probably, I didn't care. If I had cared, I'd have offered them a leg up on him so they could show me how it was done... after they signed every airtight liability form around. Did those same people condemn me for my fat little Ferrari top ten in the country horse looking "so easy"? Of course. But was that freaky Dutch horse worth every cent and then some? YES!!

I didn't see her horse plunging and breaking rhythm in front of the jumps in the '88 video so she gets lots of respect from me for the work she must have put in to correct that. If she'd been an event rider in that same year, I'd say sure, go ahead. I doubt her style would have been quite so flamboyant on a XC course... I'd imagine she'd have stayed a little tighter over solid jumps, especially as they're smaller and back then the courses were a bit more open and made more sense to a horse than some we see today. Of course with a tack malfunction she should and I hope would have been pulled on XC regardless. Steering with half a rein to an oxer that comes down is entirely different than doing the same to a solid obstacle... not that either circumstance is advisable!

On a modern, twisty, turny, trappy, weird upper level XC course, her odds drop! Today you need a freaky little "yes man" chihuahua to handle the kick/pull/kick/yank/go/whoa/deal with this insane amount of stress without losing your heart altogether/jump whether you can see the damn jump or not type of horse. Back then you needed more of a warhorse and true partnership, quirky or not. They looked like they fit that bill at Hickstead in '88.

LLDM
Nov. 26, 2009, 11:31 PM
Who *does* deserve to be there? Only riders and horses who please your eye and your sensibilities? Rather hash to be deciding what someone deserves from 20 years and an ocean away. Hope you aren't there deciding what I deserve when I bring my next quirky OTTB out at BN.

ETA: This is just the sort of "judgement" that got Hilda in such a bad place. Someone didn't like the way her horse went. What are we coming to?

I hear you, really I do. But there IS a line and it has to be drawn *somewhere*. Someone has to judge what is quirky and what is dangerous. And guess what? Sometimes they might get it wrong. Sometimes we (as riders) might get it wrong too.

If you are going to bring your quirky horse, then you need to be prepared to be eliminated. Yes, it sucks. But it sucks just as effectively when a jump judge gets it wrong. You are still every bit as eliminated. But all kinds of people here and in eventing in general will tell you to suck it up, no one is perfect, thems the breaks.

Why is this any different from that? The point is to stop trainwrecks. Trainwrecks are bad. People and horses get hurt (or worse) in them. And if you DO stop one, well, you can never even prove it. This is the one and only time I will say I feel a bit sorry for Pres. Bush. All he could say was that we never had another terrorist attack on US soil. He was right, but it certainly didn't get him much respect.

Seriously, if you all have a better idea then bring it on. How do you explain when that kind of riding is appropriate? Is it only okay at the upper levels? Is it okay at BN? Is it okay for Juniors? How about on young horses? At some point judgment has to enter the picture or it's just a free for all. And we already know the consequences to that.

SCFarm

millerra
Nov. 27, 2009, 12:17 AM
I have an idea...

How about we stop clucking our tongues like a bunch of old, gray haired church ladies and let the decision about the safeness of a horse reside with the rider, the coach and the owner, regardless of how it appears to the audience.

I have one quirky, forward, difficult ride horse. I thought she did a great job keeping the lid on and managing him. Just my two cents.

Trixie
Nov. 27, 2009, 12:28 AM
I disagree that she did a great job. I will merely agree that it's miraculous that she stayed on.


How about we stop clucking our tongues like a bunch of old, gray haired church ladies and let the decision about the safeness of a horse reside with the rider, the coach and the owner, regardless of how it appears to the audience.


I think it's pretty important to discuss these things so that we can figure out what exactly the line is, be it in show jumping or eventing. None of us want to see anyone get hurt. Now, you cannot prevent EVERY accident - but sometimes it's fairly apparent when things are an accident waiting to happen. Being able to clarify problems or weaknesses in the system through discussion helps us come up with better solutions to prevent tragedies.

We don't know yet how much policing is the answer, but we've all seen times where the rider, owner, and coach clearly do not make the right decision for the animal.

Ajierene
Nov. 27, 2009, 09:03 AM
I have an idea...

How about we stop clucking our tongues like a bunch of old, gray haired church ladies and let the decision about the safeness of a horse reside with the rider, the coach and the owner, regardless of how it appears to the audience.

I have one quirky, forward, difficult ride horse. I thought she did a great job keeping the lid on and managing him. Just my two cents.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this the case with Laine Ashker? If I am remember correctly, people thought she tried to go to fast over the cross country courses, but no many people said anything. If I am remembering correctly, people thought Buck did say something to her at times, but she did not listen. Both her and Eleanor Brennan. To tragic results.

Which is of course the problem. Annette is making it around with no tragic results, but then again, the fences fall down....

Is is possible that if Eleanor and Laine stayed in the stadium, doing derbies and jumper shows, they would have been fine? What do you do when technique looks scary when the jumps won't fall down?

Yes, different horse and rider combinations will have different techniques, so what do you see that says 'dangerous'? Is the amount of rails down in the stadium course? Is it the way the rider seems oblivious to tack or horse malfunctions? Is it the way the rider or horse moves over the jump? So many questions.

riderboy
Nov. 27, 2009, 10:42 AM
Look, what we are not seeing are the hours and hours of flatwork,gridwork coursework etc etc that this pair have done to get to this point. They have developed this partnership over time. They know each other, she knows what to expect from him, and, more importantly, he knows what to expect from her. Their style ( such as it is) is just their style. She got an obviously difficult horse around a notoriously difficult course without stopping (always his option!) or running out. That's pretty damn good. And since she is a showjumper and has developed this style to showjump, any analogy to XC is fraught with difficulty.

millerra
Nov. 27, 2009, 08:28 PM
so that we can figure out what exactly the line is, be it in show jumping or eventing.

That's precisely my point, How does an observer KNOW any better than the person sitting on and/or training the horse day after day after day? To be blunt - I don't know that most of us can.

Accidents happen. Yes, especially w/ the lower levels, it's easy to say "I told you so" but the lines are far less clear when looking at a professional from a professional horse family riding a very quirky horse with a lot of talent. All I'm pointing out is that perhaps, just perhaps - a quirky horse/rider combo can be safe....

I can't comment on Lainie Ashker or any one else's riding as I haven't seen it first hand. Every one makes a mistake - even the big guys. People love to trot out Frodo and Lainie but really, do Mr Maxwell and (I think) Music Man not count because 1) they died in the "hey day" of eventing or 2) ridden by two long time international competitors? Eventing is dangerous, period -even w/ the best of the best.

Finally, I would hate to see this sport digress to it being judged on equitation and finding a perfect distance every single time. I can see it now - "oops - they totally missed at that stadium fence and flattened the top two rails. That's dangerous riding. Give that pair a big E." Or Horsiepoo gets really pumped heading down to the start box and corks off. Rider stays on "but damn - that's dangerous riding. Give that rider the big E."

imapepper
Nov. 30, 2009, 03:41 PM
I liked Michelle Lewis's 1988 round...sort of relevant since we're often talking about the wisdom or not of getting on and continuing. Pretty funny! (And if we're talking "dangerous riding", I found Michelle's style of loosy-goosy-gunning it between fences more "offensive" than Annette's unusual equitation)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCnlKfPgaJk&NR=1

Really? You were offended by someone gunning it in between fences on a SPEED DERBY? I didn't think it was that bad of a ride. And I have seen some video of Annette Lewis on other horses and she still has a "distinctive" style but I have a feeling it was developed in part to get along with some of the types she seems to favor. Some riders do have a very distinctive style that works for them even though it is as far from text book as you can get.