German Masters Grand Prix Kur

[alicen]

Kur is on now: http://cpm24.tv/

[J-Lu]

I can't believe Totilas is only 9. He looks like such a seasoned GP horse - so calm, so uphill. His transitions are amazing.

[egontoast]

Wow. Lovely.

Just lovely.

I dunno. It's like there is this other planet where dressage is above hockey,above football,above golf..:lol:

SIGH...and there all these young great horses.

and I like Ed Gal. He seems sheepish, humble and as genuinely gobsmacked and shocked as everyone else by this horse.

I'm a fan of Isabel but always found it a bit irritating when she punched the air after a good ride.

[ridgeback]

Let's get back to the original topic.

Edward Gal and Moorlandt Totilas showed today that they can ride a test anyway they want. What a performance WOW. And i have to give credit to the German public that they can recognize a star when they see one.

agreed:) It was amazing. Still don't like his extended trot:)

[Moderator 1]

We removed some posts--please avoid the personal commentary and bickering.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[BohemianRN]

Thanks for posting that!! Such a treat

[Ceasario]

See:

http://www.youtube.com/user/filmsternl#p/a/u/0/kfFr_UcqpG4

[ridgeback]

You are entitled to your opinion, but please explain this.
It seems that the judges and the crowd loved it.

It is up instead of out. he looks like he's climbing something...The judges like a lot of things I don't like but it is what it is. I love the way Gal rides in the show ring and I think the horse looks like a sweet heart. JMO

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

It is up AND out. Count how many strides it takes the horse to cross the arena, not many. That horse is covering a huge amount of ground!

[ridgeback]

It is up AND out. Count how many strides it takes the horse to cross the arena, not many. That horse is covering a huge amount of ground!

yes it is just not my type of extended trot;)

[akrogirl]

It is up instead of out. he looks like he's climbing something...The judges like a lot of things I don't like but it is what it is. I love the way Gal rides in the show ring and I think the horse looks like a sweet heart. JMO


I feel the same way that Ridgeback does about Totilas's trot, especially after having seen the most amazing, and correct as I've always understood it, extended trot at our recent, local, season finale. The difference is like night and day.

Yes, Totilas is very strong in many areas, but I am not a fan of that trot - sorry.

[mbm]

for pete's sake ! "up and out" does NOT refer to the front legs! it refers to how the horse carries itself reflected in the entire carriage of the horse - including toplione/neck/head and throatlatch. the horse should look like it is seeking the bit, and "taking" its rider.

please see tests/rides by klimke et al for reference.

[ridgeback]

for pete's sake ! "up and out" does NOT refer to the front legs! it refers to how the horse carries itself reflected in the entire carriage of the horse - including toplione/neck/head and throatlatch. the horse should look like it is seeking the bit, and "taking" its rider.

please see tests/rides by klimke et al for reference.

for pete's sake mbm I am explaining why I don't like his extended trot.:eek: But I want to be clear I LIKE MOST EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT HIM:)

[mbm]

(i wasn't responding to you)

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

I feel the same way that Ridgeback does about Totilas's trot, especially after having seen the most amazing, and correct as I've always understood it, extended trot at our recent, local, season finale. The difference is like night and day.

Yes, Totilas is very strong in many areas, but I am not a fan of that trot - sorry.

Well if you have any horses in your barn with a crappy Totilas trot, you can send them my way. :)

[akrogirl]

Well if you have any horses in your barn with a crappy Totilas trot, you can send them my way. :)

It's a deal! Unfortunately, so far, my horses have that crappy classic trot ;-)

[egontoast]

So what do people expect ? Do you expect the horses to be perfect?

No horses get 100, not even the horses with the very best extended trots. Even your horses with the 'classic trots" :lol: probably won't get 100.

[J-Lu]

I agree with Egon that no horse is perfect. And I agree with Ridgeback - I am not a fan of his extended trot. *for my taste* there is too much action in the front legs. Now, I do think he carries himself uphill with his body. That is the important part of the movement. But he doesn't use those front legs very efficiently in terms of traveling across ground because he pulls them up so high (looks like he's climbing). Look at it in slow motion - his knees can get higher than his elbows. He gets his hind legs underneath him but he doesn't really overtrack. To me, he doesn't cover much ground at all in his extended trot. He scores well because he is uphill, he is under himself for his build and way of going, and he is very well balanced. His transitions in and out are beautiful and occur like he memorized the test himself. But i doubt that his extended trot is his best scoring movement. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like Egon says, no horse is perfect. And this horse is only 9. If he stays in regular work he'll get nothing but stronger.

[mbm]

(but, he's not over the back and to the hand..... i guess this doesnt matter anymore.....)

[alicen]

So would all those who seem to dismiss Totilas on the basis of his extended trot care to comment on his passage, piaffe, canter pirouettes, half-passes, transitions, collected trot, transitions, halts, transitions, etc. - basically the remaining 35/37 ( 94.5946 %) of the grand prix test or 39/40 (97.5%) of the free style? You know, the places where he garners 10's ?

[mbm]

he is a *super* horse - very talented. however, ridden/trained in the manner so many find incorrect - and it shows.

just because he wins - doesn't mean it is correct.

i will say - he does have nice CPs and Piaffe's.... imagine how those would be if he were ridden over the back and to the bit?

(and yeah, i know i know - i an satan for saying it and will be vilified)

[Ceasario]

See..Today Europetime

http://www.cpm24.tv/index.php?lang=en

[alicen]

How do you know how Edward Gal trains his horses :confused:

Good question. Has anyone observed his training for the past 3 years? I'm as nervous as anyone about the abuse of rollkur ( or abuse of the bit, whip, draw reins, etc., to meet the demands of dressage), but Totilas just doesn't look like an abused horse - a phenomenon, at this time, unique, but not abused.
For those who watched the Masters, does anyone think an other horse should have been placed first?

[egontoast]

imagine who those would be like if he were ridden over the back and to the bit?

:confused: Of course he is ridden over the back and to the bit.

(and yeah, i know i know - i an satan for saying it and will be vilified)]

Not satan. Just wrong.:cool:

[Pony Fixer]

mbm, why don't you think he's ridden to the bit and over the back? How can a horse collect like that, have near flawless transitions, etc. and not be connected?

I will say, that I thought he was more nervous/excited/on the muscle in this test that the previous videos I've seen.

[mbm]

hard to put into words... but he doesnt have the look and feel of a horse truly going from the back legs over the back to the bit.... and his back generally looks down... and the neck is so short and tight, and there isnt much elasticity and schwung....

the best thing i can say is go back and watch Remi or Ahlerich or any of the old greats of that time.. and compare them to totilas and you will see (hopefully) what i am talking about.

he is a great horse - but i dont like how he is ridden. :)

[Pony Fixer]

Let me start by saying I'm not trying to be argumentative.

1. Not sure how you can "feel" he's not up in his back since you are watching, in 2D no less. I will give you he gets short in the neck, but the horse has a really big, thick neck, and I'm not sure that a little shortness precludes throughness. He moves under behind and up through the body coming out the shoulder. His trot is great, but his canter is ridiculous.

2. I don't understand you don't like how he's ridden. Are you referring to RK? 'Cause where I sit, Gal does not move. Soft hands, soft seat, soft legs. Contrast to Anna Balkenhohl just before--she was visibly yanking on the horses mouth (as in loose, yank tight). I make no judgement on her, because that horse looked like a bugger to ride (appeared hot/spooky and behind her leg--a tough combo), I'm just trying to understand what you mean by not liking his riding.

Thanks!

[mbm]

i dont feel like being torn apart.

so, i will leave my comments as is. :)

[slc2]

mbm, you do know that 'Remi' (Rembrandt) was trained with hyperflexion, right?

[mbm]

changing my post to read:

as far as i know he was trained deep and round not rollkur(nose to chest)... of course i could be wrong.... in any case....

i will say - that even tho he lacked sit etc - he still, compared to today's horses, showed great throughness and over-back-ness and forwardness - his energy went *forward* not UP. . :)

i do think he was a dividing line (like totilas will be? ) you can easily see how he was different than horses before him but he still had some of the important stuff that horses of today tend to lack.

of course all this is just my wee POV. take it or leave it:)

[slc2]

The warmup of Rembrandt was just as controversial as those today.

[mbm]

of course it was! a whole book was written about it!

but he still had some of the qualities that many of today's horse lack :)

[Gribaldi]

Normaly i ony lurk here.

This is my first and last post .

Is this forum hijacked by MBM and SLC2:mad:

[J-Lu]

So would all those who seem to dismiss Totilas on the basis of his extended trot care to comment on his passage, piaffe, canter pirouettes, half-passes, transitions, collected trot, transitions, halts, transitions, etc. - basically the remaining 35/37 ( 94.5946 %) of the grand prix test or 39/40 (97.5%) of the free style? You know, the places where he garners 10's ?

Ummmmm, who are the people who are "dismissing Totilas" based on his extended trot? I looked over the posts and I don't see anyone "dismissing" Totilas. In fact, I see virtually everyone saying how nice he is but commenting on a less than perfect extended trot. You seem a bit unhappy that people might have their own opinions of his movement - why? I gave a description of my opinion of the extended trot, which unlike mbm, I do think can be uphill. Maybe it would be more constructive and conducive to conversation if you can explain why the mechanics of his extended trot appeal to you so much, and why you think it is 9/10 quality.
It's a discussion board. Discuss!

[NoDQhere]

Thanks to my son's computer skills I am able to watch my computer on my TV. So we have been watching the German Masters in every spare minute :yes:. WOW, is this fun. And educational. We are re-watching the GP Special right now.

As far as Totilas, that horse is just fabulous. He is energetic but relaxed. Powerful but supple. And most of all he looks to be confident and very comfortable in his work. Everything looks effortless for him. And Edward Gal is an excellent rider. The pair is really head and shoulders above the rest.

And yes, I am old enough and have been around long enough to compare him to the stars of yester-year.

[Jim Knopf]

Normaly i ony lurk here.

This is my first and last post .

Is this forum hijacked by MBM and SLC2:mad:

Ha ha, yeah right Theo...

[slc2]

I get the feeling mbm posts a lot about this because it's something she feels very strongly about. I don't agree with her on many of her points, but she has a right to post what she wants to post, even if it 'doesn't make sense' to others or if they don't 'see that'. I don't think she is 'taking over' and neither am i. She is just expressing her ideas and feels strongly about it. Why everyone treats her posts as a personal affront I don't know, she's just disagreeing. She's not rending anyone's clothing or spilling their cappucino. Hearing someone's position is a good way to better understand one's own position.

I think there are, in fact, legitimate criticisms of Totilas. No matter how good anything is, there is always something that can be better.

Some people find that disingenuous. They want to say that if the horse gets an 80%, that is perfect. I don't feel that an 80% is a 100%. If the horse were 100%, he would not get an 80%.

I think a horse like this puts the judges in a difficult position, like many of the recent horses do. Some things are there and are excellent. Others are not there. Some are 'golden halos' because the horse is known to the judges, has won and is known to be brilliant...others are in doubt...some are 'black halos' that people think they see because they suspect the horse is trained in a way they don't like.

Yes, I think some of the score could be too high, but which part of it? It's hard to say without examining the score sheet in detail and asking the judges how they arrived at each score. I would like to see the scores for the extended trot and see if when the horse is more incorrect, if he is being scored too leniently. Some people have charged that. I'm not sure til I watch it again and see the exact individual scores.

But I also think the horse is changing. He looks different here from the previous times I've seen him. He looks better. I actually think the obviously incorrect moments are getting to be less and less. That doesn't mean I agree that everything is perfect or that I like hyperflexion.

But...The extended trot looks better. He only flings his foreleg up a time or two, when he gets close to making the downward transition. Is it GENERALLY too exaggerated a movement? That's quite possible.

The horse has a naturally 'baroque' action (I learned that word here, it means the horse bends his knees and hocks when there isn't a rider up on him, LOL). He naturally moves very high in front.

The rider also sits back and puts his feet in front of him, which increases that upward motion; some people object to that, some do not. It bothers me, and I wouldn't like to see that be more often how horses become more expressive. I think the rider needs to sit in a 'neutral' position, without putting his weight further back than a certain neutral point.

There are two questions, one is what do you see, and the other is where is it coming from or how it is produced. It is very hard to separate the 'golden' and 'black' halos and what you see and where it comes from.

[egontoast]

Hearing someone's position is a good way to better understand one's own position.

Thanks for taking so much of your time so many times a day on so many threads to help us better understand our own positions!

:)

[alicen]

J-Lu, poof! My reply vanished. Gotta go to work. In meantime, where did I make any personal statement about T's extended trot?