Opinions: getting the most out of training

[rugbygirl]

Hello everyone, I was hoping to get some opinions from you all on my mare. Short background, then questions.

-Mare going into pro. training. Much $$$ :winkgrin:
-Goal for mare is Open shows, Dressage (to 2nd) and Hunters (to 3')
-Mare just had foal, has been coming back into work nicely and is fairly fit (can do 45 minutes of circle work without trouble)
-She got an initial 60 days under saddle (riding is her 2nd career) and then was recreationally shown and ridden for a year and a half by me. I mostly suck. She is fairly enthusiastic about trails, goes on a loose rein.
-Mare never understood "on the bit" prior to foaling. Likes to lay on the Dee-ring French Link she went in when "sponging" or "twinkling" then reins and asking for bending.
-On a trainer suggestion, I tried her in a Kimberwicke. THIS kimberwicke http://www.horsetack.com/products/bits/ac/graphics-2007/169260.jpg
-Mare is now seeking contact and spending our sessions experimenting. I can feel her get off the forehand, then go back, try stretching over her back then going hollow.
-Did I mention that mare is 14, and 2000lb Clydesdale? That might be important.

She goes to the trainer next week. Should I get trainer to work her in the snaffle and try to get her light in that or else suggest the Kimberwicke and let mare really get used to going in THAT. I don't want to have to ride the horse forever in that heavy-ported thing, but the difference is SO GOOD.

Other suggestions for working this horse? What should I be asking the trainer to focus on?

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

I wouldn't trust a bulletin board to give you recommendations to tell your trainer who is the one actually interacting with the horse everyday. Also, I am one of those loose ring snaffle only, then double bridle or possibly a pelham if jumping. I am not a fan of that kimberwick. I would say, lung her in side reins in a simple loose ring snaffle for 10-15 minutes everyday before you get on, just ride well and don't fuss with things too much. Do some cavelletti. Reward good behavior with sugar cubes and praise and tell her how pretty she is. And thats all there is too it. :-) And in a year, your goals are accomplished (well it might take you a lot longer than it takes the horse to learn how to ride a 2nd level test and jump a 3' course).

[Beasmom]

Well, you can't show dressage in a Kimblewick, so she's going to have to learn to go in a snaffle eventually, if that's what you want to do.

3' hunters? a 2000 lb. Clydesdale? Um, OK. Not my area of expertise, so I'll shut up about that.

I have students with purebred drafts and draft crosses schooling dressage. They can be surprisingly nice, but they have their own unique issues. Lots and lots of transitions within the gaits as well as up & down through the gaits, leg-yield (introducing it via "head to wall" is helpful), Shoulder-fore and Shoulder-in are things that helped.

Be sure she understands half-halts, and work on getting her sensitive to half-halts mainly from seat. The lighter you can train them to be, the better. And yes, they CAN be light!

It takes a while for the big guys to learn to use their hind ends the way we want in dressage. The draft's tendency is to push, not carry, with the hinds, and lean forward on the forehand. That's why half-halts and billions of transitions are helpful.

Never let them "take over". Oh, and keep the work varied. Change patterns frequently, as drafts tend to "memorize" exercises very quickly. then, when you want to change, they argue, "But, we've always done it THIS way!"

The lightening/getting off the forehand/ stretching/hollowing is just a matter of building the strength for the correct work. She'll work right for a while, then slip out of correctness when it gets too hard. Give her frequent breaks BEFORE things fall apart. Reward her quickly when she gets things right. It takes lots of time to build correct muscles & stamina. More time than it would take on a lighter horse.

Very rewarding horses to work with! Best of luck!

[goeslikestink]

Well, you can't show dressage in a Kimblewick, so she's going to have to learn to go in a snaffle eventually, if that's what you want to do.

3' hunters? a 2000 lb. Clydesdale? Um, OK. Not my area of expertise, so I'll shut up about that.

I have students with purebred drafts and draft crosses schooling dressage. They can be surprisingly nice, but they have their own unique issues. Lots and lots of transitions within the gaits as well as up & down through the gaits, leg-yield (introducing it via "head to wall" is helpful), Shoulder-fore and Shoulder-in are things that helped.

Be sure she understands half-halts, and work on getting her sensitive to half-halts mainly from seat. The lighter you can train them to be, the better. And yes, they CAN be light!

It takes a while for the big guys to learn to use their hind ends the way we want in dressage. The draft's tendency is to push, not carry, with the hinds, and lean forward on the forehand. That's why half-halts and billions of transitions are helpful.

Never let them "take over". Oh, and keep the work varied. Change patterns frequently, as drafts tend to "memorize" exercises very quickly. then, when you want to change, they argue, "But, we've always done it THIS way!"

The lightening/getting off the forehand/ stretching/hollowing is just a matter of building the strength for the correct work. She'll work right for a while, then slip out of correctness when it gets too hard. Give her frequent breaks BEFORE things fall apart. Reward her quickly when she gets things right. It takes lots of time to build correct muscles & stamina. More time than it would take on a lighter horse.

Very rewarding horses to work with! Best of luck!

echo beasmom also you need to use the half halt stride in every transition
if your trianer cant do this or show you how to then change your trianer
as this will help keep her off the forehand
look here at helpful links pages read all links on page one
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178116
be sure to read all links on page one - link 2 on page is important
to you read it and understand it as this will explain a lot of what might be happening with your horse

and read this link mouthing and bitting by thomas 1
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=223453

[Shiaway]

I'll answer the title question--how to get the most out of training-- be there every time the trainer rides your horse. That's my advice.

[jcotton]

Echo-ing what Beasmom said.
And be realistic in the time frame it takes to get to Second level. Coming back to work, without a concept of "on the bit", half-halts and naturally being a draft may very well take you longer than a year to get there. Don't cheat the foundation work to get to second level--it will come back to bite you! There is so much more to Second level than doing the fun stuff of lateral work.

I ride a welsh cob. Yes, he could a lot of the lateral work for second level over a year ago, also had the lengthenings in trot and canter. But all were moderate in quality. Now my lateral work is better in so many ways -- strength to do it, not as much tension/resistence and because of the other things improving, the lengthenings are better.

[rugbygirl]

may very well take you longer than a year to get there.

If it only took a year I would be ecstatic. Not likely for either of us. That's the end goal. :D This horse will be a project forever.

3' hunters? a 2000 lb. Clydesdale? Um, OK. Not my area of expertise, so I'll shut up about that.

Don't be distracted by "Hunters"...I mean at schooling and local Open shows. 3' is well within this horse's capability to jump. I'm not talking about having her in a competitive Hunter program.

Thanks for the suggestions, of course I will be talking this over with my trainer. I like what she does with horses (and riders) but I wanted to go in with a little bit more focused discussion than "train my horse". I suppose "get my horse working off her hindend consistently" is a good start. Being there every time is not an option, unfortunately. There are no horse trainers closer to my location than 3 hours on a treacherous highway. I see my trainer as frequently as I can.


ETA: Also, I am one of those loose ring snaffle only

This horse, being of above average mouth size, sort of picks at the ring feels like regular chomping and mouthing...until it is in her mouth. Maybe a bigger ring would help, but I couldn't find one. Probably a better rider would help too, but sometimes I get distracted. Dee ring is much better, they seem to make bits with giant dees, and she leaves that bit alone.

[Beasmom]

Perhaps ride her with either a drop noseband or a flash attachment on the cavesson. That should prevent her from drawing the bit ring into her mouth.

At 14, with what sounds like little riding in her past, 2nd Level might be too ambitious a goal. Aim for correct development through Training and First Levels. IF she has the ability for Second Level, the correct basics will lay the foundation and she will get there with ease. No foundation, no progress.

[slc2]

With a pasture kept broodmare, you're looking at many months just of gradual very basic fittening work. Sounds like the trainer will be doing much of that! So he's going to fit the horse up, teach her dressage to second level...AND jumping to three feet, in how long???

It takes 3 years in an ideal situation for a horse to reach 2nd level. With a young, fit horse. About as long to jumping 3 feet for an amateur('confirmed, steady, point and shoot').

I think that you need to talk to the trainer and ask, 'now that you've ridden her for a week, where do you think we will be at the end of our training time?'.

S/he'll probably say 'I can't tell much based on a week, I'll do what I can, let's see where we are in 3 months'. She'll probably say much of her time is devoted to getting the horse fit.

And s/he probably DOESN'T appreciate being told what bit to use or how to work the horse. Hopefully, s/he already has done that with a number of similar horses, and based on how the horse reacts to the first few rides and his/her experience, will select a bit that works for his/her riding and training.

But I think you're expecting an awful lot of the trainer in a very short period of time.

Would I keep my 14 year old Clydesdale broodmare at home and give up?

No. I'm not saying that at all.

If she were mine, I'd do the following.

I'd select one sport or the other, I wouldn't try to do both to start. I'd start by schooling the horse on the flat in either case, and spending about a year or so gradually getting it fitter. If my choice was jumping, I'd STILL spend six months of doing 'remedial fitness' without jumping.

I'd partner with a trainer who I would talk with freely and openly and ongoing, with about what to expect and how things are going. I'd pick a good trainer, and then let him or her do exactly what s/he thinks is best. I'd respect his/her knowledge and be confident that what s/he chooses is the best idea, and that the horse, rather than the trainer or owner, define the goals and 'what is best long term' for the horse.

I would ride and take lessons from the trainer over a long term, watch how things unfolded with the horse, and enjoy what seemed best for the horse in the long term. I'd think of it as a process, and I'd let the horse's responses define the goals.

[Elegante E]

Just my two cents, as you've gotten some very good advice, but with a bit like that, your horse is NOT truly accepting the bit and working off of it. That bit will work on the roof of the mouth and the bars sotrue acceptance of contact is not likely to happen. What you will get is a false head set and possibly fear of true contact.

[Beasmom]

As I read through the responses you're getting, I'm beginning to wonder if you have sufficient trust/faith in your chosen trainer.

Why else would you be asking these questions on a BB?

Just a thought.

[rugbygirl]

Maybe I don't totally trust her. I'm not sure I have a lot of options though. The horse needs more training, and not very many trainers will agree to take her. Too old, wrong breed, too big, draft horses shouldn't do this or that, why don't you sell her and try out this horse I have for sale, etc, etc. I'm getting the feeling that I'm lucky that this trainer is willing to work with us at all, especially with me being so far away. The lessons I do get to take are with this trainer as well, and she has done a lot with my riding as well as with my "proper" horse (a nice bay TB who was trained to 2nd before I bought him)

My end goals for the horse are a little different than my immediate goals, just to clear up confusion. She will not (nor will I) be expected to complete a 2nd level test in 6 months. That's my "one day" goal. :lol:


With a pasture kept broodmare,

:no:She's not even a broodmare...one draft foal back in the day before I owned her, one foal for me...the rest of her life was spent as a rather unspectacular driving horse, who finally panicked her last owner into selling her after bolting one too many times with expensive equipment. Am I over-emotional about this horse...oh yeah. She got under my skin. Worst POSSIBLE horse for a novice rider. We're doing okay, but we could be doing better. As is, she's fun to take on trails and will occasionally get through a decent 2'3" Hunter course. If she feels like it.

Fitness for riding is definitely going to need help, she's never really developed the muscles she needs. My trainer suggests that the horse develops those muscles by being ridden (properly) and doesn't like to do a lot of groundwork for fitness. I tend to agree with this. Not sure how that would be received.


Hopefully that also sheds light on the randomness of my question. BBs are useful to me, because my trainer only gets to see us once in a while for lessons, and she isn't much of a "hypothetical" person...she's definitely a "bring her here and we'll git 'er done" which I appreciate...but it does make me a little nervous as I am so far away.


As for telling her which bit to use...this particular trainer won't waste time getting this heavy horse soft in a snaffle if I plan to ride her in a long-shanked curb. She's very much of the attitude that you use the right tool for the right horse and rider. I knew how this group felt about Pelhams, but I hadn't heard much about Kimberwickes yet ;)

--

As a further question, could my horse's laying on the snaffle bit have to do with her teeth needing attention? She is naturally a sloppy, sloppy eater, so I haven't specifically noticed anything new. When I bring her to the trainer, she gets her teeth floated and all her vaccines brought up to date. Maybe that will change things??

[Beasmom]

Can't hurt, getting the teeth done, but I'm afraid "laying on the snaffle" is just what Drafts like to do. You teach them to take a proper connection to the bit; not by using severe bits.

Is this trainer looking for correctness or expedited training? Red flag.

If you are planning to ride her in a long-shanked curb, why send her off for training at all?

[rugbygirl]

Is this trainer looking for correctness or expedited training? Red flag.

Safe horse that goes correctly. Goes as fast as the horse will allow.

If you are planning to ride her in a long-shanked curb, why send her off for training at all?

Sorry, that was just an example. I plan to ride her in whatever bit she seems to like. She really hates single jointed snaffles, and loose rings are a bit of a problem (maybe they pinch her?) but the Dee doesn't seem to bug her. Just the heaviness...eh.

--

The whole Kimberwicke thing was just really surprising, but not because she immediately dropped into a "headset" or anything. It was like I had exhausted all my tools using the same bit, and the horse just tuned out. She was sort of comfy just leaning on the Dee ring. Then when I put in the Kimberwicke, it was like she woke up, she started trying things out, and then I could reward her for doing the right thing (stretching, engaging the hind end). I wonder if it was the specific bit choice, or if it was just something new? She didn't seem uncomfortable...just more engaged again.

[Arrows Endure]

Ouch guys. Take it easy. What I hear is a person who's trying to do the best with the horse she has, and the responses she's getting are...well...harsh.

Rugbygirl, good for you for spending the time and money sending your mare for training.

If you want to compete in dressage, I'd have your trainer work on getting your mare light in a snaffle bit. I would take lessons with her on at least a weekly basis while your horse is in training, and most likely afterwards. It will take some time to get your mare fit enough to maintain lightness through an entire ride. She is going to collect, then go hollow, then collect, etc. It will feel better for her to be collected, so she will spend more and more time collected as she gains fitness.

As for using a kimberwicke for now, it's not going to hurt her at all, as long as you aren't heavy handed and she doesn't resent the bit. Snaffles are not the be all, end all of bits, and you are not being abusive by using something different. Heck, my last horse had to be trail ridden in a VERY severe hackamore/bit combination. However, in that get up, I could ride him with extremely light hands, and get instant responses with the twitch of a rein. He was happier, calmer, and much more focused with that on. If I tried to ride him in a snaffle outside the ring, I spent the entire ride fighting to keep him from going as fast as he really wanted, and both of us had a miserable time as a result. In the ring, he was a perfect gentleman with the snaffle.

So, just be as involved as you can be with her training, and you will get the most out of it. Good luck, and enjoy!

[slc2]

:no:Maybe I don't totally trust her. I'm not sure I have a lot of options though.

I don't understand what you mean here. You feel afraid of her? You're not quite sure you're safe on her?

The horse needs more training, and not very many trainers will agree to take her.

WHY?

Too old, wrong breed, too big, draft horses shouldn't do this or that,

It's an ambitious plan for any horse and rider.

why don't you sell her and try out this horse I have for sale, etc, etc.

Perhaps not always in dressage, but my hunter friends tell me it's not unusual for some hunter trainers to do this...no matter what they have. That's because each new student is an opportunity to earn a commission. Sometimes it makes sense for students to get a new horse, sometimes not. The trick is determining if it is the right advice or not.

Sometimes it is. Maybe those trainers are seeing something that makes them say that. Why are they saying that?

This is a horse that failed as a driving horse because it freaked out several times, enough to smash several carts, it sounds like, you cannot get round a 2'3'' course reliably or do flat work without her pulling like a freight train, that you want to send away to do much more than most people ever reach.

I can understand why some trainers would not be eager. [\I]

It's not just the breed, i think - I think it's more the situation. You do occasionally find full drafts that can carry, push and be lightfooted. And I would expect a little more cheerful response from a trainer if you had one of those. Maybe you don't. Maybe this is more about the situation - if so, please don't pin the issue on the trainer not liking a given breed.

I'm getting the feeling that I'm lucky that this trainer is willing to work with us at all, especially with me being so far away. The lessons I do get to take are with this trainer as well, and she has done a lot with my riding as well as with my "proper" horse (a nice bay TB who was trained to 2nd before I bought him)

You have another horse that does well in hunters - why does the Clydesdale have to do the three foot division...AND second level dressage?

My end goals for the horse are a little different than my immediate goals, just to clear up confusion. She will not (nor will I) be expected to complete a 2nd level test in 6 months. That's my "one day" goal.

I think it's good that you don't expect the trainer to do this all in six months! But I'm intrigued as to why THIS horse has to have that all as a goal.

[I]:no::no::no:Owners don't decide what level horses go to or what height they jump to. The horse decides that - based on how he responds to his training. No matter what you have, you should be saying, 'We'll see where we get', NOT, 'this is my goal, how do I get there'. I am completely intrigued and puzzled by WHY you have chosen THESE goals.


Quote:
With a pasture kept broodmare,

She's not even a broodmare...one draft foal back in the day before I owned her, one foal for me...

She's done more time as a brood mare than she has had training it sounds like!

the rest of her life was spent as a rather unspectacular driving horse, who finally panicked her last owner into selling her after bolting one too many times with expensive equipment.

So here we have a horse that has wrecked several vehicles, that you can't reliably get around a 2'3'' course, that pulls your arms off in a snaffle, but which you feel better riding in the Kimberwicke, that you are sending away for training. This is what we really have.
[\B]

Am I over-emotional about this horse...oh yeah. She got under my skin.

[B]That's very obvious, and very, very concerning, and why I responded in the first place. I felt that from the start of your thread - very strongly.

Worst POSSIBLE horse for a novice rider. We're doing okay, but we could be doing better. As is, she's fun to take on trails and will occasionally get through a decent 2'3" Hunter course. If she feels like it.

IF SHE FEELS LIKE IT? Um....Can you be a little more clear about wht's really happening when you ride this horse?

How really is sending it to a trainer and having even HIGHER goals going to fix THIS problem????? I have to be honest - what you're saying is just not adding up. At. All.

If you are having problems getting this horse round a 2'3'' course...maybe a better goal is for you to be able to get the horse around a 2'3'' course.

THEN think about what's next!

I don't see how sending the horse away does anything other than not require yo uto ride it for a while.

Fitness for riding is definitely going to need help, she's never really developed the muscles she needs. My trainer suggests that the horse develops those muscles by being ridden (properly) and doesn't like to do a lot of groundwork for fitness. I tend to agree with this. Not sure how that would be received.

The horse needs the under saddle work. It works the back in a way that no ground work can, no matter what. At the same time, if you can ALSO do ground work, your horse will benefit immensely. Ground work is indispensable to a great training program. But it cannot SUBSTITUTE for weight bearing activities.

Hopefully that also sheds light on the randomness of my question...(describes trainer)...

I think you very much need someone like that as a counter balance.

What about sending the horse away, is going to change how you ride? Make you less of a novice? Will it make your Clydesdale as easy to ride as your Thoroughbred?

Too, you have a goal of doing far, far, far more than that - more than MOST people in dressage ever get to, more than MOST people in hunters ever get to!!!

MOST people in dressage, after many, many years, don't ride second level. And MOST people in hunters, even after many many years, also don't ride the 3 foot division!

As for telling her which bit to use...this particular trainer won't waste time getting this heavy horse soft in a snaffle if I plan to ride her in a long-shanked curb.

???? You can't ride her in a 'long shanked curb' in dressage at second level, and there are far, far better ways to get control of your horse than doing THAT!

She's very much of the attitude....

A kimberwicke is not a bit I'd EVER consider for a dressage horse. If he was being an ass in a snaffle, I'd put him in a french link snaffle and whatever else I needed (string, mild simple double occasionally, gag, grackle), and teach him he has to mind his business and be obedient to it, or he'd catch hell and a basket of kittens.

As a further question, could my horse's laying on the snaffle bit have to do with her teeth needing attention?

What's more likely, do you think? That she has a bad tooth, or that she's heavy in the snaffle because she's untrained, unfit, built like a draft horse, and being ridden by a novice who's alittle afraid of how strong she is?

She is naturally a sloppy, sloppy eater, so I haven't specifically noticed anything new.

Horse eating sloppily doesn't mean anything. Most horses eat sloppily. If she's 'quidding' (dropping compressed masses of chewed food from her mouth as she eats) she may have a tooth problem.

When I bring her to the trainer, she gets her teeth floated and all her vaccines brought up to date. Maybe that will change things??

Unless you are not getting her teeth floated once a year routinely, I doubt her teeth has anything to do with it. Even if you're NOT getting the teeth floated, I think all the other factors are probably pretty important.

[rugbygirl]

You had better understand one thing first of all. This is a serious lack of submission. You may have the same problem under saddle. If this is a 'mental thing' it may well continue. Be on the lookout for signs of unsafe behavior under saddle - PLEASE do NOT allow your obsession with this horse to lead you to do things that are unsafe for you.

Easy slc. I respect your advice, and think I understand that you mean it to be helpful. Maybe more info before you get too worried.

Yes, bolting is a serious problem. I also have a different horse in my hands than arrived to me three years ago. It took a lot of very patient work, six months before I even thought of riding her, to get her where she is. She doesn't bolt anymore, she does periodically shy sideways now, but that a fair sight better than what it used to be. When I got this horse, she wouldn't eat grain out of a bucket if I held it. I had to turn away and set it on the ground. 20 feet away, at first, then I got closer and closer. Then I started grooming her while she ate. She actually had some nice ground manners once she calmed down. I got her yielding very nicely and lunging. Then we added tack. Then I tried to slowly get on her...but I never got past one foot in the stirrup...she scared the crap out of me. I sent her to a really good trainer who got her walking and trotting. All in a snaffle, FTR. ;)

For over two years since then, I taught her how to canter under saddle (she really, REALLY didn't want to) and got her going over trot poles and cavaletti. Then we moved on to cross-rails, which she liked. Twice in the first month post-training she regressed into bolting, which caused me injury but not so serious I couldn't get back on. We continued in our lessons and stepped up our program to include actual fences. When she got too pregnant to ride over fences, we were consistently doing 2'3" courses...unless she was crabby. 2'3" HUNTER is really not a stretch for a horse that big. No combinations, no oxers, just simple lines with cross-rails and verticals. We also got some decent Intro test scores, and nice comments on willingness and forward...but very often comments about how the horse needed to be "on the bit." I always rode her with contact, and she was forward...but there you go.

Lately we've plateaud. However you want to spell that. She's a nice walk-trot-canter, low-level Hunter. Nice leads, fun on trails, no bolting. Still won't get "on the bit" to satisfy a Dressage judge, and I'd like to get that happening...but as my post shows, I'm out of tools to get her to learn that. Hence sending her out. I can ride a horse with contact, but maybe not teach a horse the concept? Maybe that's my fallacy, and I need to figure out how to teach her.

[rugbygirl]

What's more likely, do you think? That she has a bad tooth, or that she's heavy in the snaffle because she's untrained, unfit, built like a draft horse, and being ridden by a novice who's alittle afraid of how strong she is?

Touche.


Mind you, I am now less afraid of how strong the horse is and more afraid that I might have "heavy hands" and am making her dull to contact. I definitely tend to worry about myself first. ;)

[slc2]

I tried to tone it down, read it again. Aside from that, this horse didn't just bolt a time or two, even if that's all it did, it would still be an unsuitable horse for a novice. But what it did is, it wrecked several vehicles and it was put into riding because of that. The poster isn't really giving a clear picture. And I don't see how sending the horse away is going to help her.

[Beasmom]

OP, draft horses can go on the bit, but riders need to learn that simply because the horse is forward and there is "contact" on the bit, is not the same as "on the bit".

It sounds like you've done a lot with the mare and have made a lot of progress. Good for you! Getting a draft horse "on the bit" is a different thing than getting a TB "on the bit". It's a longer process for the Draft -- you have a lot more muscle to fitten up and a lot more mass to move.

First off, I'd like to ask you -- can you get your TB on the bit? If you can, ask yourself how you do it and how it feels. Naturally, many things will be easier for the TB. For instance, TB's love to gallop. Drafts, not so much! (Ask me how I know!!)

The methods that work for TB's will not necessarily work for Drafts. Well, they will, but may have to be "administered" a little differently. TB's are so light (generally), it's easier to persuade them to lift up in front as they carry more behind. Even so, some will never do dressage well. Drafts, even more so, because by nature they are meant to lean into pulling a load -- not to carry behind and lift in front, as dressage requires. But it can be done with the right individuals and patient, careful work.

Can you ride her through downward transitions using only your seat and core strength -- NO hands? Can you release one or both reins and expect her to maintain her self-carriage for a few steps? Is she light and responsive to your leg? Do you refuse to participate in a pulling match with her? As SOON as she begins to lean/pull on your hands, you must release one or maybe both reins -- let her know she has to carry her own head around -- you won't do it for her! And that not allowing her to take over thing applies here as well, as a horse pulling or leaning is about to "take over". You change the subject at that moment, quickly release one rein, for instance. It's hard to pull against only one rein, but easy to pull if your rider also is pulling. Drop a rein -- don't pull back! Frequent changes of direction, changes of gait, or changes within the gait, keep the horse guessing. And "light on his feet", too.

If you don't know how to do these things, that's where your trainer can help you. As your mare progresses, have your trainer show you what she's done to create the progress, and show how you can do it, too. Ask her why she does certain things in the training, if it isn't obvious, or if the trainer doesn't automatically offer this information. Some will, some won't. I'd rather have a student/client that asks a million questions than a student/client that displays apathy, confusion or fear. It's your right as the client to know what's going on with your horse, and to understand the process as best you can.

Best of luck with your mare. Keep us posted on her progress!

[Beasmom]

Rugbygirl, I just read your post regarding your concern about "heavy" hands. You are absolutely right that heavy hands make a horse dull. Are you using the reins to balance yourself? If you tend to "waterski" on the horse's mouth, that's an excellent reason for the lack of progress -- the plateau you mentioned.

Get some lunge lessons while your mare is off at the trainer's. Lunge lessons are the best for developing a rider's independent seat & balance. Independent seat = independent hands.

I rode my client's Shire mare today and found her to be light, responsive to the seat, and well forward. Everything I'd want in a riding horse. I even asked for a few half-steps and the mare complied. You will get nowhere with your Clydesdale if you hang and pull, as you suspect.

Good for you for recognizing that possibility in your riding. We've all been there. Recognizing what needs to be fixed is more than half the battle!

[rugbygirl]

Beasmom, thanks for the kind words. And for saying that drafts are a little different to get on the bit. I am really sick of people telling me that it's exactly the same :mad: particularly when they've never ridden my horse!

On to your questions:

Can you ride her through downward transitions using only your seat and core strength -- NO hands?

Oh yes. She loves downward transitions, and she is a bit more sensitive to things she likes. Aren't we all. :lol: I can also get her up to trot and through her various trots with no hands and just my seat. She needs the leg to get to cantering though. Occasionally the spur. She also understands half-halting WAAAAAAY better than my TB. The Clydesdale is one you can really just "think halt" on and she gets it. Now, about half the time the half-halt consists of her popping up her head a little and hollowing...but sometimes it is a proper one.

Can you release one or both reins and expect her to maintain her self-carriage for a few steps?

Well, that's an interesting question. As I mentioned, I ride her all over the place on a totally loose rein. I mean on the buckle. She's not really self-carrying at that point though. When I am working with her on actual carriage, my way is to hold her in my outside rein, use my inside leg, and try to soften with the inside rein. At this point, when she "gets it" I back right off so that she gets obvious relief and knows she did the right thing. She will maintain it for a step or two. Much better at the trot than at the walk...but that shouldn't be a surprise...the kind of driving she did was almost exclusively at the trot or pulling-walk (pulling a very heavy load, like a plough). Her working walk needed a lot of work when I got her.

Is she light and responsive to your leg?

Yes. Unless she is letting me know that we are really, really done for the day. Sometimes I push harder than I should in a single session. I do wear spurs for periodic support of leg aids. When she feels like it, she can be quite obstinate.


Do you refuse to participate in a pulling match with her? As SOON as she begins to lean/pull on your hands, you must release one or maybe both reins -- let her know she has to carry her own head around -- you won't do it for her!

This is a different thing that I have been doing. Now, I can't get into a pulling match, I would lose. She starts to lean gradually. Sort of how she does when I trim her hooves. Slowly, slowly drops weight until I am finally holding up her whole darn self and react. Out riding, typically I release both reins and then gather us back up. Get organised. I can definitely focus on being more sensitive to this though, and releasing when she STARTS to lean. That's sort of the opposite tactic to what I was doing. She'd lean, I'd continue with my softening and inside leg hoping she'd try something else. I will try this releasing thing out this week.


And that not allowing her to take over thing applies here as well, as a horse pulling or leaning is about to "take over". You change the subject at that moment, quickly release one rein, for instance. It's hard to pull against only one rein, but easy to pull if your rider also is pulling. Drop a rein -- don't pull back! Frequent changes of direction, changes of gait, or changes within the gait, keep the horse guessing. And "light on his feet", too.


On to the TB, yes, I can get him on the bit. He is a lot easier though. He has a ton of driving power from behind and knows how to use himself. Very forward. He is also very sensitive to the bit, and if you pull on his face, he bucks. I have never had him buck, but he was part-leased for about six months to a girl who was all about "frame"...and he bucked with her. My coach says that I do not ride off my hands. I have to go with her on that...she tells me to pick up more rein all the time. I took some really good Dressage lessons when I still lived in an area with lessons, and the instructor had me taking up WAAAAAY more rein on the Clydesdale. I don't have any remotely recent video of me riding either horse, and the most recent photos are the day the TB and I tried X-Country for the first time.

It's interesting riding these two horses. You'd think the Thoroughbred would be the confidence-builder, but he isn't. He's very hard to ride. You need to be on the ball. He magnifies your riding errors x100. The Clydesdale is way more forgiving and easy to deal with. Then again, if you ride properly, the TB is a joy...riding properly doesn't help on the Clydesdale if she doesn't know what I am asking for.


I will definitely work on the things people suggested in this thread, particularly the half-halts and dropping the reins when she starts to lean. I have her for another five days, then she goes to the trainer. Since fitness was mentioned more than once, I will add to my trainer that the horse can be used for lessons (flat only).

[Beasmom]

You may want to try deeply bending her to the right or left, too. If she is bracing in the poll or neck (common problem), you need to break that up. The popping up in transitions is indicative of "not-throughness" and bracing in the moment of transition. At that moment, the horse stops using its rear end, falls on the fore and sticks its neck out and up. Aggravating, for sure.

So you have to balance a somewhat forward-driving influence to keep the rear end working through a downward transition. This is often helped by slightly bending the horse to one side or another. Once you get it, you own it and will be able to do it with any horse.

I would agree, between your TB and your Clyde, you have just about the most different types of horses ever!

Transitions with the Clyde are your best friends and are key to getting her truly round and on the bit.

As for allowing her to be used for lessons -- please reconsider that, as any time the horse is handled or ridden, it is learning something, and if the rider is unskilled, what she's learning will be wrong. If she's used as a lunge lesson horse, in properly adjusted side reins, that might be less harmful.

You want the horse to advance, not just tread water, and I can guarantee if she's used as a schoolie for unskilled riders, your trainer will be hard pressed to maintain an upward curve in the work. She will be spending too much time "fixing" what the students do to her.

[Beasmom]

I should clarify: deep bending to right or left is done to help the horse release tight, bracing muscles. As she releases the tension, you Even up your reins and ride her forward into even contact.

A slight bending aid prepares the horse for the next task, ie. transitions, and can be incorporated into your half-halts.

[Jocko]

I rode my client's Shire mare today and found her to be light, responsive to the seat, and well forward.

I am the client with the shire mare that Beasmom rode yesterday.

I was being a little "handsy" and she wanted to clarify if it was me or my horse. It was me, of course :yes:

Beasmom - I am bookmarking this thread for future reference (also, for when we write our soon to be famous book ... "Teaching the Draft Horse to Dance" :cool:).

[Gloria]

Did anybody mention saddle fit? I have a draft cross and a Morgan that need XXW tree... If I use any saddle that is W or anything narrower, they pull and lean and pull and lean.... And they shot their noses in the air before proceeding to pulling again. When I changed saddle, half the battle was won.

Not sure whether this is any issue but definitely something to look into.

By the way, I don't like kimberwick because of its design (long story). I would much rather use a full bridle so I can use the bits separately for particular need, and then maybe gradually transition to plain ole snaffle. If you don't want to use a full bridle, how about trying to find a thin snaffle bit? Thicker bits encourage pulling you know.

[rugbygirl]

Saddle fit doesn't seem to be the problem, as she is very much the same bareback. Good suggestion though, she was very hard to fit. She's actually only an XW, due to sort of pointy high withers.

Thicker bits encourage pulling you know.

Did not know this, although it makes sense to me if I think about it. Her Dee-ring is fairly thin, but I have a few others to try out (full cheek and eggbuts) now that I think maybe just the change in bit was what got her interested. I thought maybe something with a roller would get her interested again.

--

Beasmom and J, you can use my horse in your book if you want. She'll dance one day! She really likes turning on the forehand. Like, a LOT. She can even do a turn on the haunches, but I am inconsistent in riding it properly.

[Beasmom]

Great idea, Jocko!

In Jocko's defense, she has done magnificent work with this mare of hers in the time we have been working together. J has been instrumental in educating ME about drafts, horses that up to now I had little experience with.

Jocko is learning to drive carriages, and I think the requirements for that task versus that of riding creates a few "senior moments" till you get the skill sets sorted out in your head. It's J's good work with her horse that made her feel so good to me yesterday. Just a matter of getting the horse's opinion, then correcting the rider...

[rugbygirl]

*pouts* I wish MY trainer would come on here and compliment me like that. You're lucky J! :lol:

It would probably go thusly:

"well, rugbygirl sure tries hard. She, uh, well yeah. Good work ethic."

:lol::lol:

[Beasmom]

RG, riding and training drafts for dressage is not easy. There's a reason we don't see tons of them at the shows. Be firm and patient with yourself and your horse and use this as an opportunity to learn how to do things with a more problematic type of horse.

What you learn with her will serve you well in the future.

[rugbygirl]

Someone had asked for updates on the big mare.

She is doing very well for the trainer, I had a lesson on her this past weekend. They are focusing on a lot of gridwork right now, low fences to about 2'3".

After trying the Kimberwicke, I put her back in the Dee ring the next session, and had quite a turnaround by focusing on making her "carry her own head" as Beasmom suggested. She has become consistently softer and seeks contact. Her free walk has improved drastically with that minor "attitude" shift by the rider (me).

The trainer is working on fitness and using the gridwork to help keep mare working off her hind end. We are moving toward "round" but are happy right now with "forward" and "accepting of contact". This mare has a nice natural rhythm to work with, internal metronome, I guess. Mare has also retained much of her balance and flexibility, so she is moving along nicely.

Mare's jumping is also MUCH improved...maybe half due to the fact that while she was off I went and improved my riding considerably on a MUCH tougher horse. No more refusals! She's always been eager to fences, but she really seems to have found her stride with this program.

--

Perhaps the biggest compliment of all...everyone at trainer's barn thinks the mare's name (Spooky) is ironic. :lol: Shows how far we've really come in two years! Trainer has two working students taking some of the rides on this horse too, I am brimming with pride. I did a TON of this horse's training on my own, and she has become a right proper equine citizen.

[dainty do]

Hey rubygirl,

Congratulations on your success, and thanks for the update! I'm boarded at a stable with several other draft crosses. Recently, I made a pact with several others who have these great crosses to take them to a show. Next summer, mark your calendar

[Beasmom]

I'm so happy it's working out for you, RG! :winkgrin:

I have been doing cavalletti grids with my gelding and it's also made a big difference, improving collection, strength, activity, and he thinks it's fun!

He cannot jump, due to an injury, but the grids of slightly raised rails is enough to get the job done. He is lighter, more balanced, more self-carried.

My mare thrives on jump grids. Wonderful exercises for any horse -- especially good in the winter, when riding around and around indoors can get pretty dull for horse AND rider!

[rugbygirl]

Recently, I made a pact with several others who have these great crosses to take them to a show. Next summer, mark your calendar

Sweet! I love meeting other draft crosses at shows...that's how I found the awesome Hackney-Clyde cross, I never would have expected that to be such an amazing horse! When you ride a full draft, people always want to come up and tell you about what sort of draft horses they've ridden. You get to meet a lot of neat people and horses!

Yeah, I use my horse as a social tool. *blushie*:lol:

[rugbygirl]

Further update on the Dressaging/Jumping Clydesdale:

We had a Clinic this past weekend with a Grand Prix Jumping coach. He was great! Mare and I were in the "remedial" class, but our class probably made the most progress out of anyone. We kind of shocked him, especially on Day 2 (over fences.)


--

Clinician was complimentary of mare's rhythm and deliberateness at the walk and trot. We worked on adding impulsion, which mare was very willing to do. Continuous calls for me to shorten the reins. Compliments on my rider position! Really!!

The habit of popping up in transitions is now more obvious, as mare becomes softer and rounder. Clinician suggested that getting the "pop" means pretending you didn't ask for a halt or downward transition, just ride on through and ask again a few strides later to avoid reinforcing the pop-up reaction. Good advice, and something I hadn't tried. He also suggested that because I ride on such a loose rein, I'm losing the contact and surprising her when I ride her into the bit for a transition.

Canter work really showed the gaps. Particularly on the left rein, bulging the shoulder out. Mare does well on the straight lines, as well as in corners, but the sustained circle work is not yet there. 4-5 strides, then she loses it. More coaching to me to open the inside rein and pick up more outside rein. Sensing a theme yet? Before we can show our Training Level, I absolutely want to fix the popping up and improve the quality of the 20m circles at the canter. The walk and trot and upward transitions are definitely close.

Over fences the clinician was very impressed. Mare is eager, brave, and even took a terrible spot over a narrow, funky diagonal for me. She did the course in a beautiful rhythm...and if I hadn't been counting so hard, I might have remembered to ask for the 2 lead changes :no: He said that you can't fix everything at once though :) He originally advised me to keep her focused on "staying in the track," but she was FINE, even in tight corners. Quite straight, so we moved on to rhythm. This is a horse who wouldn't walk between two POLES when I got her for fear of being confined!! Now she's jumping the narrow 8-10' wide standards without a blink!


Mare is set to show in one cross-rail round and several 2'3" -> 2'6" Hunter classes in three weeks...I am super excited! I'd say that so far, I am very content that we are getting the most out of training. :) She just GETS being on the bit now...the moments of brilliance are getting closer together, and the moments of falling apart are getting shorter and further apart.

[meupatdoes]

You may want to try deeply bending her to the right or left, too. If she is bracing in the poll or neck (common problem), you need to break that up. The popping up in transitions is indicative of "not-throughness" and bracing in the moment of transition. At that moment, the horse stops using its rear end, falls on the fore and sticks its neck out and up. Aggravating, for sure.


I disagree with deeply bending the horse to "break it up," because most of the time the brace comes from the very base of the neck. Pulling the head around does not fix it; in fact it generally makes it worse because then the horse gets 'too loose' in the front of the neck and then just bends there every time instead of throughout the whole spine. Instead of having an even 'positive tension' to work with along the whole spine, you have a neck that collapses at the top, and then it becomes very difficult to "access" the base of the neck and free up the rest of the back.

The lack of throughness usually comes from a failure to yield the base of the neck/shouler to the inside leg. Thus when I supple a horse, I start at the base of the neck and work my way up, rather than pulling at the nose and working my way down.

Rather than pulling the horse's head around, I would ask for slight bend with opening rein (instead of a pulling back rein) and do a lot of legyielding from the quarterline to the longside. Another good thing is to ride curves in which the horse drifts out with the shoulder leading a little. It is ok if the head is high at first as long as the shoulder is yielding.

Then practice "switching" the shoulder from one bend to another in changes of direction. Mini serpentines that are half leg yield/half turn up the diagonal can really help the horse get supple here. Focus on whether the BASE of the neck is responding.

Gradually work UP the neck, not down it.

Eventually when riding transitions the inside leg will hold the "through" into the outside aids, the seat will get the transition done, and the hands will be mainly decoration.

[Beasmom]

Good points!

[rugbygirl]

That's an interesting way of looking at it, meupatdoes. I hadn't thought of that before, but that really is where the stiffness comes from...mare has a pretty bendy neck/poll. You can really see the shoulder/spine stiffness with the bulging on sustained circles.

In practice, I learned that pulling this horse's head around is a useless adventure. She's just too strong, you have to use more finesse than that. That's what riding drafts is about, I think...you need to take every bit of responsiveness they give you and hone it until they focus on the slightest cue. Some horses you can get away with muscling around. Not a draft. That's why my girl was a good choice to take into riding seriously...she's very attentive and responsive.

The lack of throughness usually comes from a failure to yield the base of the neck/shouler to the inside leg.
Mette Rosencrantz talks a lot about pretending you and the horse are in a wetsuit, or bellows seal...like a shell that needs to guide the movement, and every lengthening to one side results in shortening to the other side. I really have the benefit of "forward" with this mare, but teaching her what the "shell of aids" are for is still a work in progress. I like your suggestion of quarter line yields a lot. Because we are still facing a bit of fitness/strength issue on the circle, a little bit of lateral work to really drive home what the legs are doing might be just the thing. It will also teach me to open the inside rein without the added stress of trying to stay on the circle, where we just have too many things to work on sometimes. I hope this paragraph made sense, the comment of yours that I quoted really made me think!

Then practice "switching" the shoulder from one bend to another in changes of direction. Mini serpentines that are half leg yield/half turn up the diagonal can really help the horse get supple here. Focus on whether the BASE of the neck is responding.

An idea to focus on while doing gymnastic exercises too...I'll definitely try to keep this in mind. It's a great time for a horse like this, in a gymnastic, because she's rocked back on her hind end from the low poles and fences, moving very uphill, especially through small combinations.

[Beasmom]

I reread your account of the clinic. I scanned over it this morning and did not do it justice. Congratulations! The clinician's comments are spot on and very encouraging.

Got photos?

[rugbygirl]

Apparently there is video...I can't decide if I want to see it or not. :lol:

[Beasmom]

Never miss an opportunity to watch a vid of your riding! For better or worse, it's a great reality check.

[IrishWillow]

She sounds cute. Good for you for training a full draft!