FEI accept the use of bute. Extended List got accepted

[DQ-Services]

FEI accept the use of bute

[in_the_zone]

For real?

[SBrentnall]

It's true. Here's another report: http://special.equisearch.com/blog/horsehealth/2009/11/fei-shock-bute-will-be-allowed-in.html

[Lexi]

it wasn't done according to the bylaws so may not be legally valid.

[War Admiral]

Horse and Hound so far has the most up to date coverage. Fish around on the other links. Princess Haya just rejected calls for a recount apparently.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/291967.html

[Equibrit]

FEI TV is broadcasting the meeting live today.
http://www.feitv.org/page/Live/0,,12664,00.html

FEI president Princess Haya refuses to allow a re-vote on bute


Abigail Butcher, H&H head of news, in Denmark
19 November, 2009

Britain's and Ireland's calls for a re-vote on the decision to allow bute in competition have been dismissed.


Damian McDonald chief executive of Horse Sport Ireland has questioned this afternoon whether delegates at the FEI general assembly understood fully what they were voting for.

"On 13 November it was stated by the FEI that we would get a choice between the 'progressive list' and a list legally called the '20 October list'," he said.

"But this morning we were asked to vote on 'progressive list' and 'current list', and the current list we had until now is very different from the list of 20 October."

He urged to allow a revote to be absolutely certain that federations were clear on what they were voting for, a call backed up by British Equestrian Federation (BEF) chairman Keith Taylor.

"I suggest that if there is sufficient doubt in the room that a vote should be retaken," said Mr Taylor.

But FEI president Princess Haya refused to allow a re-vote, claiming a number of delegates had already left the assembly. Before they left, the Princess said they had told her of their concern that the FEI might backtrack on the decision taken this morning.

"The vote has been taken," said Princess Haya. "We will not take it again."
German equestrian federation president Breido Graf zu Rantzau warned: "How can we leave Copenhagen like this? It divides the FEI."

[War Admiral]

it wasn't done according to the bylaws so may not be legally valid.

It does indeed seem to have been done against the bylaws (clear violation of the notice provisions), but I'd just as soon let it stand if a lot of reps have left already, I think HRH makes a good call here.

[ridgeback]

Good news and about damn time.:D

[Lexi]

It does indeed seem to have been done against the bylaws (clear violation of the notice provisions), but I'd just as soon let it stand if a lot of reps have left already, I think HRH makes a good call here.that people have left is a separate issue. the revote issue is a matter of alleged confusion over which list they were voting for. the larger issue is that no vote should have occurred to begin with so even a revote would be invalid. a lot easier, or at least a first step, to immediately call for a revote than it is to tackle the bigger problem

[War Admiral]

that people have left is a separate issue. the revote issue is a matter of alleged confusion over which list they were voting for.

Correct, but the "Elvis has left the building" justification is the one HRH used! :)

[Lexi]

lol.

so now will the Euro feds have the balls to take the appropriate action, or will they just follow polo's lead and actually secede? :lol:

[Karoline]

Hilarious double talk.

Could not find what the legal dosing is?

[dwblover]

I think it's going to be 1 gram not within twelve hours of competition.

[imajicadutch]

From Horse and Hound:

"The FEI has set the level to allow for a small single dose of one of the three non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) to be given 24 hours before a competition. The doses have been set to ease muscle stiffness but, supposedly, not to mask a problem such as arthritis."

This level will not mask anything, but will help a few short-term issues.

[Fixerupper]

Princess Haya is dragging the FEI...kicking and screaming...into the new millennium!

very good news!

[imajicadutch]

Snooze=lose.

[Fixerupper]

:lol:

[Ellie K]

In the “new millenium,” we abide by our organisation’s constitution. We do not circumvent statutory rights of voting stakeholders, no matter how badly we want new drug rules. Good governance first; everything else follows from that.

Being deliberately denied the information a month in advance as required by the Statutes, by a power mad president and her accomplices, is not modern, not "snoozing." And that's before you even get into the ever-present potential question of who might have gotten what at the last minute in exchange for their vote.

[imajicadutch]

Who was denied this information? Or, were they just not paying attention?

[Fixerupper]

And that's before you even get into the ever-present potential question of who might have gotten what at the last minute in exchange for their vote.

On the other hand...how much lobbying did this circumvent??!!
Princess Haya is no fool...

[JumpingBug]

"Ellie K
Posts: 736

In the “new millenium,” we abide by our organisation’s (organisation’s?) constitution"

Yep and no matter how antiquated government, organizations etc we just abide abide abide.. (rolling eyes and chuckling)

I think at lower levels that bute or other nsaids will be a good addition. I take motrin before I compete or work out and considering what those horses go through I think it is fair.

[Ellie K]

Yep and no matter how antiquated government, organizations etc we just abide abide abide.. (rolling eyes and chuckling)Actually, it is the old (read: "antiquated") statutes that allowed for far less notice and no input at all during the working phase, just a dump of the final version 3-4 weeks out. The new (read: "more modern") statutes, enacted just a few years ago (2004 or 2005 as I recall but I'd have to double check it), allow for 6 weeks consultation during the working phase, prior to the sending of the final draft 4 weeks out. This time no one even got the benefits of the "antiquated" version of the statutes, much less the "modern" version.

[JumpingBug]

Ellie K

You missed my point.. BUT hey I will not argue with you and sorry I am in the NO RE_VOTE camp on this one.

[fburton]

This level will not mask anything, but will help a few short-term issues.
Such as?

I would be grateful if someone would explain exactly what this ruling is intended to achieve. Is a statement of the rationale available to read?

[Thomas_1]

Shameful!!!

[Kareen]

If they get through with this it'll be the ultimate kiss of death to Equestrian Sport's public acceptance. Great job HRH Haya, maybe she should take care of the issues within her closest proximity first before taking out what appears to be a family joke onto her position with the FEI :shocked:

[slc2]

Opinion seems very divided on this. The new rule is either a very good move or a very bad move.

How it was passed is extremely peculiar.

I recall that Haya's husband violated a medication rule in a competition recently. I'm sure many people would put the two together.

Is this for 'globalization'? Give the people from new dressage countries a break so they can compete on their old schoolmasters?

Does it allow people to compete on a horse that is simply sore from being shipped in to the competition or got cast last night?

Does it then mean that every horse now gets tested? Cost?

With all the many problems of clearance time and individual metabolism of a drug, how would this rule reliably be enforced?

Is it possible then, to simply start to taper the med up to 24 hr before the competition?

Does bute hide serious lameness?

When I have given bute to injured horses, their injury or lameness was not removed and was not masked. I can still see lameness.

Could bute cover up a serious condition? Could it hide something much more minor though?

Is bute a masking substance for any other medications?

It strikes me as very odd, that this rule would be put into effect so quickly after the suspension of isabel werth for giving her horse medication. Is it a concession to those who insisted that zero tolerance is unfair?

[ridgeback]

If they get through with this it'll be the ultimate kiss of death to Equestrian Sport's public acceptance. Great job HRH Haya, maybe she should take care of the issues within her closest proximity first before taking out what appears to be a family joke onto her position with the FEI :shocked:

Maybe in Germany but not in the rest of the world.:lol:

[MySparrow]

Boy oh boy! My first reaction to this news -- which I had heard bruited for some weeks -- was a qualified "good." I figured it would make life easier for hardworking horses. Of course I recognize the potential for abuse, and that does concern me. But bute certainly won't hide serious lameness or chronic issues. I figured on balance that this would be good for horses.

But then I read this thread with its hints of nefarious deal making and rule infringements and I shuddered. I wish that all of you who are implying wrongdoing would be more specific. Kareen, your posts are particularly opaque to someone who doesn't follow inner-circle gossip.

What are all of you talking about? Why would this be the "ultimate kiss of death..."? Are you all saying that the FEI leadership is corrupt? What do the rest of us need to know that you already know?

Thanks from a baffled MySparrow.

[slc2]

hear, hear, oyez, oyez .:lol:

[Equibrit]

Battle lines are drawn in Copenhagen: general assembly blog


Abigail Butcher, H&H head of news, in Denmark
19 November, 2009

It feels like battle lines are drawn here in Copenhagen this morning, as the general assembly of the FEI gets underway.


Yesterday's discussion on whether bute should be allowed in horse sport seemed to be a good outlet for underlying tensions. But the atmosphere this morning is still tense — there seems to be a move to revolt against the FEI governance, which is evidently seen as becoming less democratic.

Whether or not bute is allowed in competition was the crux of the debate yesterday, but national federations were angry that the FEI had not consulted them on the plan. On 20 October, for the last consultation with NFs, the FEI sent out the "current list". It made no mention of the "progressive list" until yesterday.

Information was sent out on 13 November in an email, but it appears very few NFs had actually noted the changes.

The FEI insists it remains impartial on the subject. The actual rule allows for a small single dose of one of three non-steroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAIDs) up to 24 hours before competition — but they don't appear to know whether this can be "bent" and bute given to a horse on the day it competes.


Where the idea of allowing low levels of NSAIDs in horse sport came from, no one knows. During the debate FEI chief executive officer Alex McLin said the rules and levels allowed had been drawn from the US Equestrian Federation (USEF) — which allows bute.

The discussion implied the plan had come from the USEF – to the point that USEF chief executive Jon Long stood up and said he had not proposed the idea of allowing NSAIDs in horse sport and did not support it.

Other countries were outraged the plans had been presented to them at the workshop — former FEI secretary general Bo Helander, of Sweden, seemed particularly incensed.

But the other strand of discontent was that, should NSAIDs be allowed in the sport, national federations would have to adopt them in their home countries — though with the caveat that countries that banned NSAIDs outright would still be entitled to that ban.

How can this be a fair sport, asked France. Other countries have even stricter rules than the FEI is proposing — another source of anger.

[canyonoak]

Hmmm.
From the USEF Drugs and Medications Pamphlet:

http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/2007/2007DrugsMedsGuidelines.pdf

go to Restricted Medication Dose and Time Recommendations

scroll down the LENGTHY list to phenylybutazone ("bute")

Perhaps John Long should have brought a copy of the USEF Rules with him to Copenhagen,

FWIW: FEI permits up to 8 mcg/ml for bute
USEF permits up to 15 mcg/ml f9r bute

[sdlbredfan]

It appears to me that this is an attempt to get FEI rules in alignment with USEF, and that makes sense to me. Here is (IMO) a scenario in which it is a good thing, let's say horsey reacts to new water or change in scenery at competition venue with a low grade colic. An NSAID is administered (I am presuming Flunixin will also be allowed as an alternative to Bute?), horse recovers, appropriate time limit passes, horse is fine, it should then be allowed to compete.

Similarly, envision scenario horse steps on a rock, bruises foot, gets one dose of Bute, next day horsey is fine, should be allowed to compete. I think we should assume that horses will be thoroughly tested, and this program change will be monitored closely.

[Kareen]

Ok, so if Bute isn't going to mask a serious condition why would you screen for it in a PPE?!
Likewise what's so great about competing on a horse that's lame if not on medication?
And lastly: Yes one reason why dressage enthusiasts don't have to worry about public acceptance of their sport in their country is because that acceptance has never gone significantly above zero to begin with. Wonder why? One reason is possibly because a not so small number of competing dressage riders in the US deem it acceptable to drug a lame horse to the point it can serve longer (which may or may not be a good idea and is certainly arguable) and compete on it while on medication which reportedly the vast majority of Europeans and British consider just plain unethical.
This conflict could endanger the position of the FEI as the international roof organisation of equestrian sports.

[fburton]

Video of the complete discussion :

http://www.viddler.com/explore/nov2009/videos/78/
Thanks for posting the link - it looks useful.

Unfortunately the video skips on my machine (with three different browsers) so there are sizeable gaps in the presentations. Is this just me, or does it happen for everyone?

[siegi b.]

Kareen, obviously giving a horse bute to mask conditions is much more prevalent in Europe because we don't really screen for it here during PPEs. We may pull blood and leave it with the vet in case the horse changes drastically within 24 hours, but we don't automatically screen for use of bute.:)

[Kareen]

Apparently not because the only drug tests I've ever been asked to perform on PPE's were from American buyers only *lol*
Another interesting aspect is the question in what sense a horse should benefit from showing any longer than it physically can...

[fburton]

Re: http://www.viddler.com/explore/nov2009/videos/78/

I'm confused. John Long (Chief Executive Officer, USEF) said:

"I would like to make it very clear to everyone in this room that the progressive list proposal did not come from the USEF. It is not our official position and we do not support it."

So, did the USEF vote for the progressive list or not?

In the video, most people argued against the progressive list and yet 53 National Federations voted for it. Do we know who these were, or is it a secret ballot?

[BVEventing]

I think it is a good step in the right direction, we don't ask our riders to not use advil if they are sore, so we should allow our horses the same benefits.

[Nojacketrequired]

Kareen, perhaps those people wanted blood pulled for drug screens that might cause personality changes in the horse. Reserpine, etc, usually not Bute, but maybe that as well.

What is the 1/2 life of Bute? Does anyone know?

If they get through with this it'll be the ultimate kiss of death to Equestrian Sport's public acceptance.

Exaggerate much? Giving a top performing, long travelling athlete the equivalent of a horsey-tylenol in order to allow them to shake off the effects of travelling/stress/strange bedding/tense or strained muscles just doesn't seem like the end of dressage as we know it to me. Besides, you can twist them up into a knot, spur them until they bleed and tie their head to their chests on the longe and THAT is less of a "kiss of death"?

I certainly agree at the lower levels this is great. A lot of older horse can come out a touch stiff and work out of it great, and Bute can help them over that first few minutes especially during the stress of trailering to a show etc.

Is the aruguement that the rule passed or that it passed in some seemingly underhanded way?

NJR

[Sara Lieser]

Our reporter just sent us a fairly comprehensive story about the debate. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/shocking-vote-legalizes-bute-fei-competition

I have calls in to USEF, so we'll see how they respond!

[Lexi]

Re: http://www.viddler.com/explore/nov2009/videos/78/

I'm confused. John Long (Chief Executive Officer, USEF) said:

"I would like to make it very clear to everyone in this room that the progressive list proposal did not come from the USEF. It is not our official position and we do not support it."

So, did the USEF vote for the progressive list or not?

In the video, most people argued against the progressive list and yet 53 National Federations voted for it. Do we know who these were, or is it a secret ballot?

it's a secret ballot. the people speaking are the big countries, generally. they can vote how they want, and they will speak out.

the little countries while possibly in favor anyway if it makes their work easier, are also easily influenced with promises of development funds, Olympic slots etc plus possibly just wanting to align w/ US rather than Europe knowing that the US will look after them better and make concessions to them to get their votes.

Whereas the Europeans already have a huge voting block and don't think they need to bother with the developing nfs.

I too find it very strange that he would say they do not support it. Yes we know they didn't wrap it up in usef letterhead and send it out, DUH. But OF COURSE once it's on the docket they would vote for it, give us a freaking break! it's the USEF/AHSA wet dream, peoples.

so methinks John Long doth protest too much especially since the question Graeme answered from AUS was only about science and where the data for the levels came from, the conversation wasn't in any way about the politics of it at that point. Graeme just said they requested the scientific info from usef which it's no secret that usef is the big source for that within the FEi.

but next thing you know there's this sort of over the top defensive statement by Long. in context, it was a little weird.

and then, did you check out Lord Stevens body language when the camera pans to him just after Long speaks? it's...uh, interesting. This is @ about 1:12.
and then did you see this on the eventing thread, here's David OConner blabbing to the media about it way back in sept. which makes Long's statements more than a bit :confused::eek::lol:

http://equisearch.com/equiwire_news/nancy_jaffer/fei_drugs_medications_update_090309/

[Cielo Azure]

As long as the votes of small countries have the same value as the leading countries this will always stay a problem.

Video of the complete discussion :

http://www.viddler.com/explore/nov2009/videos/78/

Snort! Just choked on my soft-drink. I think many people feel this way about the UN! Wouldn't the UN be much, much better if only the "rich" and "democratic" countries were allowed to play in the sand box?

Getting back to dressage...What do you think, should there be representatives based on? Number of golds? Number of horses in representative countries? Number of competitors winning at what level? How do you define "leading country?"

Maybe they should just throw out all those countries that aren't as competitive? They could narrow it down to the top three or four Nations competing at the Olympic level. I bet some might think that would make life a lot easier.

[mares tails]

What is the 1/2 life of Bute? Does anyone know?

"The serum half-life (http://www.elephantcare.org/Drugs/phenylbu.htm)in the horse ranges from 3.5-6 hours, and like aspirin is dose-dependent. Therapeutic efficacy however, may last for more than 24 hours however, probably due to the irreversible binding of phenylbutazone to cyclooxygenase. In horses and other species, phenylbutazone is nearly completely metabolized, primarily to oxphenbutazone (active) and gamma-hydroxyphenylbutazone. Oxyphenbutazone has been detected in horse urine for up to 48 hours after a single dose. Phenylbutazone is more rapidly excreted into alkaline than into acidic urine."

see also "Phenylbutazone in the horse: a review (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3517382)." and
"Population distributions of phenylbutazone (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6512917) and oxyphenbutazone after oral and i.v. dosing in horses."

[siegi b.]

Kareen - what does that tell you when the only time you're asked to do a drug test is when an American buys a horse in Germany? :sadsmile:

[canyonoak]

<< Another defining point that I did not see being presented here was how will they determine and regulate abuse of this issue. What kind of documentation and paperwork will be required? I am assuming, there MUST be some sort of paperwork that would need to be documented/presented by a veterinarian, etc. Without documentation of a valid reason, pretty soon everyone will just dose their horse with 1 gram 12 hours before the competition just as a prevention and to "keep up with the other guy because they're doing it too" sorta thing.>>


There already exist all sorts of protocols--at least in the horse sport countries of Europe -- that require all riders who are accepted for team to have a complete medical log which is maintained by the team veterinarian. AT specified times before each competition during the year, ONLY the team vet will be allowed to dispense any medication whatsoever, providing a paper trail for whatever substance may show up on drug tests.

I do not see how those inside horse sport moaning and carrying on about therapeutic amounts of controlled susbtances and calling them "drugs" and 'the end of horse sport' can possibly live in this world.

The argument about horses 'choosing' the life of performance is moot; there are very few people who want or can afford to keep horses as big pet dogs, so horses have to have some use, no matter how superficial compared to oh say, a bomb-sniffing dog.

Performance, breed shows and racing are the big outlets for horses, and only two of those do drug tests...

People who plan to cheat will cheat no matter what protocols are laid out.

But I do believe that equine athletes HAVE TO be afforded the same therapeutic rights as human athletes, if we are talking seriously about horse welfare on this level.

[MySparrow]

[QUOTE=canyonoak;But I do believe that equine athletes HAVE TO be afforded the same therapeutic rights as human athletes, if we are talking seriously about horse welfare on this level.[/QUOTE]

Very good point.

[Sebastian]

About freakin' time.
Seb :cool:

[Fixerupper]

The other aspect that is fundamental is that countries that have a lot of depth in rider/horse combinations...such as Germany... can replace the 'foot bruised/banged shin' horse and still field a credible team. Countries with less depth (and yes Canada is currently one) may struggle to fill all the team slots...one little oops and you are out.

Interestingly...Mme Withages spent some serious FEI resources promoting 'smaller dressage countries' (and no Canada was not one :lol:) at the O's...this will help that concept far more than anything she had engineered.

[Fixerupper]

Yup....dressage...it's not just for breakfast any more!

(there was another post here..I'm sure of it?...or I've taken to talking to myself like some others on this board ;-)

[Kareen]

Kareen - what does that tell you when the only time you're asked to do a drug test is when an American buys a horse in Germany? :sadsmile:

...That they have bought horses in Holland before? *grin*

[fburton]

But I do believe that equine athletes HAVE TO be afforded the same therapeutic rights as human athletes, if we are talking seriously about horse welfare on this level.
The same rights? Better rights - or rather, protections - surely, given that the equine athletes have no choice in the matter.

[fburton]

Is the scientific report that justified the inclusion of bute on the permissive list available for public to read?

[MEP]

“The Prohibited Substance List adopted by the FEI General Assembly on 19 November—the 'Progressive List'—allows the restricted use in competition of a limited number of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory substances at very low levels. The World Anti Doping Agency has no restriction on the use of NSAIDs for human athletes. We should be able to treat not only our human athletes as approved by WADA, but also—and under similar principles—our horses close to competition. These very low levels have been established based on scientific evidence specifically to protect the welfare of the competition horse. The data that was requested was to establish the levels needed to provide minor anti-inflammatory relief only.”

If the general public and sponsors are screaming about "doping" in equestrian sports, it's because banning mild anti-inflammatories drove people to use substances described as "will not test" to treat inflammation and mild muscle soreness. Some of them got caught, and the sensation mongers called it doping.

Now, the testing can focus on REAL doping - the use of drugs to enhance performance. And if idiots get caught who are really doping their horses, they should get the flippin' book thrown at them!

[slc2]

The big drug flap in dressage was not over sore muscles. It was over an antipsychotic being given to a horse with a chronic neurological problem.

[Kareen]

Seems to be the same to some... I don't get it really. How is 'getting rid of muscle soreness' whatever you want to call it, not performance enhancing. If it wasn't performance enhancing none of these drugs would be given and we wouldn't discuss the matter at all.
Drugs are for horses with problems, horses with problems don't belong into competition.
If a horse can not be kept sound to compete without being on constant medical treatment either the sport or the management has to change to the point where it can. Anything else is abusive and should be prosecuted. No grey areas in there at all no matter how hard some are trying to push their point.

[buschkn]

The levels allowable are very small, and certainly not levels that would permit a lame horse to compete soundly. Do you HONESTLY think that the human athletes who run and jump their hearts out do not take a couple Advil or Alleve at the end of the day? How is this a bad thing for our horses or our sports?

Do you people who protest so loudly ever actually exercise? Have you never worked so hard as to, at the end of the day, go in and take a hot bath, drink a glass of red wine, and take an Advil before bed so you can get up and do it all over again?

As a human physician, I think it is appalling that we have afforded our equine atheletes less courtesy than ourselves for so long. They work very hard for us, day after day, and to allow a horse a shot of Banamine for a mild belly ache, or a gram of bute if he is sore from traveling 30hr in a box on a plane, seems like a step in the right direction to me.

[Fixerupper]

Do you people who protest so loudly ever actually exercise?



:yes:

[Coreene]

...That they have bought horses in Holland before? *grin*

:dead: Because, of course, the Germans have been such shining examples of following the anti doping rules - yeah, a cheap shot, but so was that comment.

[egontoast]

The levels allowable are very small, and certainly not levels that would permit a lame horse to compete soundly. Do you HONESTLY think that the human athletes who run and jump their hearts out do not take a couple Advil or Alleve at the end of the day? How is this a bad thing for our horses or our sports?

Do you people who protest so loudly ever actually exercise? Have you never worked so hard as to, at the end of the day, go in and take a hot bath, drink a glass of red wine, and take an Advil before bed so you can get up and do it all over again?

As a human physician, I think it is appalling that we have afforded our equine atheletes less courtesy than ourselves for so long. They work very hard for us, day after day, and to allow a horse a shot of Banamine for a mild belly ache, or a gram of bute if he is sore from traveling 30hr in a box on a plane, seems like a step in the right direction to me.

well said.

[MySparrow]

Our reporter just sent us a fairly comprehensive story about the debate. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/shocking-vote-legalizes-bute-fei-competition

I have calls in to USEF, so we'll see how they respond!


Thanks, Sara. Very useful observations.

[narcisco]

Originally Posted by canyonoak View Post
But I do believe that equine athletes HAVE TO be afforded the same therapeutic rights as human athletes, if we are talking seriously about horse welfare on this level.

The same rights? Better rights - or rather, protections - surely, given that the equine athletes have no choice in the matter.

My problem with bute is that it masks bigger issues. I know a horse who had "minor aches and pains, something NQR." He was given a gram of bute per day to take part in a clinic. By the end of the clinic, where he looked sound enough and performed his heart, he was irreversibly lame. Two years later, he still can not walk without pain.

A human would have been able to talk about the severity and onslaught of his pain before taking a masking agent. A human could have stopped the exercise at the first twinge. The horse could not. The horse's welfare must be discussed very differently than a human's--and we have greater responsibility.

[Fixerupper]

The levels permitted by FEI is far less than a gram of bute per day..

I'm curious as to what kind of subtle injury could be made irreversible after 3 days on bute? What kind of work did the horse do at the clinic? (I'm not being provocative...I really am just curious!)

[ise@ssl]

Well maybe someone can explain if this move to have comparable rules for equine and human athletes will apply to other issues. If a human athlete had be defribillated several times during the competition - would they be allowed to compete? I am not a medical professional but I cannot understand how it was o.k. for a horse. Maybe someone on here with Veterinary medicine credentials can weigh in on this point.

[narcisco]

I'm curious as to what kind of subtle injury could be made irreversible after 3 days on bute? What kind of work did the horse do at the clinic? (I'm not being provocative...I really am just curious!)

Hind leg suspensory doing upper level dressage. The problem was the horse was not quite right, the rider had already entered the clinic and kept pushing the horse at the same level of work because the horse felt better to her and looked ok to the clinician. Irreversible because sometimes you can take a year or so off and fix them, and sometimes they're done.

I also saw something similar done to an eventing horse, that masked the beginning of a laminitic episode and ended in a full blown, career ending founder when the rider kept jumping on bute.

[mbm]

honestly - i think we need to know what is going on with the horse - and since they have no voice - masking any "minor" pain is like putting tape over a kids mouth....

it is not the same as humans. already greed and power put horses at risk... now under the heading "being kind to our horses" they will be able to push further and possibly do damage - all in the name of kindness.

[Horseymama]

The levels allowable are very small, and certainly not levels that would permit a lame horse to compete soundly. Do you HONESTLY think that the human athletes who run and jump their hearts out do not take a couple Advil or Alleve at the end of the day? How is this a bad thing for our horses or our sports?

Do you people who protest so loudly ever actually exercise? Have you never worked so hard as to, at the end of the day, go in and take a hot bath, drink a glass of red wine, and take an Advil before bed so you can get up and do it all over again?

As a human physician, I think it is appalling that we have afforded our equine atheletes less courtesy than ourselves for so long. They work very hard for us, day after day, and to allow a horse a shot of Banamine for a mild belly ache, or a gram of bute if he is sore from traveling 30hr in a box on a plane, seems like a step in the right direction to me.

Completely and totally AGREE!

[mbm]

erm. i am not sure where this idea came that horses will get denied treatment if they need it. if they need treatment they should not be showing at the highest levels.

take a week or two off from showing for petes sake!

[narcisco]

They work very hard for us, day after day, and to allow a horse a shot of Banamine for a mild belly ache...

Banamine is another masking substance, and should only be administered for a mild belly ache by a vet who has already examined the horse for possible impactions, twists or tortions. I have seen too many horses with "a mild colic," treated by the owner with banamine. A few hours later, the horse seems fine, the owner goes home, and as soon as the banamine wears off, the horse slams back to the ground with a twisted intestine. I have seen several horses die because they were not transported in time to get the veterinary help they really needed when banamine masked the pain.

We've all taken those risks, and my vet asks that I call her at the first sign of colic to be sure she is available. If she can not come out immediately to examine, she might ask that I give the banamine to make him comfortable, but only if I can monitor the horse every two hours throughout the night.

[Fixerupper]

Hind leg suspensory doing upper level dressage.

yes... could happen

But for FEI - 1 gram 24hr before competing...lameness from a significant injury would show up....if used more than once during the competition the doses would naturally have to be much lower to avoid cumulative levels of unmetabolized medication...so less chance of disguising a significant injury. The drug testing is so sensitive now that pushing the withdraw limit would be 'suicidal'.

I never did understand the 'zero tolerance' philosophy. With established limits of known medications, which are easily tested for quantitatively, it's not like it's a 'drug fest' free-for-all.
Bute was allowed 20yrs ago in jumping & eventing...and horses seemed to have longer careers than they do now...

[Fixerupper]

Banamine is another masking substance

When 'masking' is used in reference to drug testing, it means that it interferes with the testing of other drugs...with the old testing methods that could happen..not any more.

NO ONE at an FEI competition is allowed to administer ANY medication (with the exception of ulcer meds) except a veterinarian and it must be approved by the FEI vet/vet panel.

As I said it's not a drug free-for-all.

[mbm]

Does this mean that it's OK at the lower levels :eek:

This new (progressive) list has been introduced by the powers of the US federation. Don't forget this please.

of course not! but we are talking FEI here.... so higher levels.

i am not sure what your point is re usef? just because my countries federation "likes" this idea, doesn't mean i do - what a strange idea.

[ise@ssl]

Well how do they handle this at shows that are FEI with a USEF show held at the same time and often with the same horses?

[Fixerupper]

Well how do they handle this at shows that are FEI with a USEF show held at the same time and often with the same horses?

I don't think horses can be cross-entered between FEI and national at one show..?? The FEI horses are generally stabled separately from the national horses.
Essentially it is two different shows at the same venue.
The samples from drug testing are sent to different labs for different types of testing...the FEI tests being more comprehensive.

[narcisco]

When 'masking' is used in reference to drug testing, it means that it interferes with the testing of other drugs...with the old testing methods that could happen..not any more.


I think I made it very clear that these substances mask pain.

[Fixerupper]

and you are right that they should not be used 'instead' of treatment...
but this is not the case with the FEI rules...all meds and treatments are closely monitored... at least at horse shows....and that will not change.

[Fixerupper]

erm. i am not sure where this idea came that horses will get denied treatment if they need it. if they need treatment they should not be showing at the highest levels.

take a week or two off from showing for petes sake!

I don't want to get into 'it' with you again...I should just stop reading your posts!!...but...

Sure it's all easy in theory...give them a 'week or two' off when they don't need a week or two off...just a few days for the 'foot bruise/close nail/scraped fetlock etc. etc. What about missing the show 2 hours away that is needed for qualifying marks and having to ship the horse 30 hours to the next available show...that's way easier on them...not!!
We get it...you're all about treating the horse well....think it through.

[ridgeback]

Seems to be the same to some... I don't get it really. How is 'getting rid of muscle soreness' whatever you want to call it, not performance enhancing. If it wasn't performance enhancing none of these drugs would be given and we wouldn't discuss the matter at all.
Drugs are for horses with problems, horses with problems don't belong into competition.
If a horse can not be kept sound to compete without being on constant medical treatment either the sport or the management has to change to the point where it can. Anything else is abusive and should be prosecuted. No grey areas in there at all no matter how hard some are trying to push their point.

IMO and it is only my opinion Kareen I think your black and white view of things is scarey.

[MEP]

The big drug flap in dressage was not over sore muscles. It was over an antipsychotic being given to a horse with a chronic neurological problem.

But the clean sport investigation wasn't really about the big flap in dressage - it was in response to the 5 showjumpers from the Olympics who's horses tested positive for capsaicin or one of it's derivatives. The Isabell Werth flap was much more recent, although I think it did have an effect on a lot of people's opinions.

[Nojacketrequired]

If a human athlete had be defribillated several times during the competition - would they be allowed to compete? I am not a medical professional but I cannot understand how it was o.k. for a horse.

They have horse defribilators? Neat.

NJR :lol:

[Kareen]

To me the scary thing is how someone can think of excusing themselves for abusively using a horse without allowing for enough non-showing time to clear off mecially active levels (and in the case of bute that's what we are talking about. Not some trace residual or a contamination from an unclean feeding bucket) by argueing it was for the better of the horse. Speaking of talking corners into a circle... But to each their own.
The FEI is increasingly losing credibility by this approach of softening up towards showing under medication. It could easily lead to the foundation of a whole new organisation and thus could further contribute to the road downwards equestrian sport is suffering from in terms of public acceptance (don't even talk of popularity anymore...), sponsors willing to fund events or trophies etc.etc.
Luckily I don't have a horse in this race otherwise I would feel much stronger about it. It's an embarassing discussion and I urge anybody who is wanting to show under medication to seriously reconsider their reasons to be in any equestrian activity at all.
Why not get a tennis racket? They don't need medication, they don't even have a life of their own and most of all they don't require sportsmanship and can even be thrown to the ground in a fit without risking being kicked out. Embarassing.

[fburton]

They have horse defribilators? Neat.

"Stand well clear!" :eek:

However... it would have been atrial rather than ventricular fibrillation that was converted. The former condition is apparently rather common in horses (probably something to do with the size of the atria) and is not immediately life-threatening in either horses or humans, though it can certainly affect athletic performance. Also, it is possible to convert AF with drugs (bolus IV injections) as well as with an electric shock, and the shock to convert AF is done via catheters and not externally across the chest. So the procedure would have been rather less dramatic-looking than the archetypal ER scenario!

[fburton]

Speaking of talking corners into a circle... But to each their own.
It is interesting to me how different countries voice opposing rationales for their national policies. Why are some (most?) European countries so adamant about enforcing a zero-tolerance policy while other countries (including USA?) argue for the benefits to competitors (and horses) of allowing therapeutic doses? Is it a cultural thing, or what?

[slc2]

I can't compare human athletes to equine athletes. A human athlete makes a conscious choice to 'play hurt' and nurse himself through a competition on NSAIDs so that he can get endorsements or a title or a sponsor, and he may be willing to 'play through' pain to gain those things or for fortune and fame. I made a choice to do that when I was an athlete, today I am paying the price. That's fine with me.

It's different with a horse. He is not capable of making such a choice and is not given a choice. He also lives on his legs, I don't. I can take a desk job, a horse has to stand on his legs about 24/7.

I think it's nothing more than tradition. Everyone always has a VERY lovely sounding rationale for everything they do. And I use 'rationale' in the most derogatory sense possible.

Neither side has EVER produced ANY data or any real sound argument showing either approach does what it is purported to do. Or even, that it does what it's purported to do in a sufficient percentage of cases to make it worthwhile.

The 'rationale' is, fundamentally, 'Because it's better to do it this way', which is an absurd defense of ANY process! It's the traditional defense of all information technology people to any process they have no data for.

There are disadvantages and downsides to both systems.

The downside to the USEF approach is that there are horses out there showing that should not be. They are too stove up and sore to be showing, and they are showing. It's that simple. I worked for a trainer for a long time who brought lame horses to shows. I worked for him, and I didn't even put together what he was doing. He was that good at it; he'd been doing it for years. He knew all the drug testers in the region. He knew when they were on the show grounds. He did a myriad of things to work the system. He showed lame horses, chronically unsound horses that were lame every day at home. The downside to the 'some tolerance' system is that a large group of people - no, not a small group, a large group - learn to work the system to their advantage.

In the USEF system, if a horse is a little 'legitimately' sore, he can get some medications shortly before the show.

In the (current) FEI system, if a horse is a little 'legitimately' sore, he gets ice, walking and massage. If he needs more, that's fine, but he can't compete.

The argument, and I think it's a very interesting one (though hard to prove with data), is that IF he is really an FEI level athlete and fit and healthy and sound, the allowed modalities are ENOUGH if he is 'legitimately' 'just a little sore'.

The downside to the zero tolerance approach is ALSO that people learn how to work THAT system! They do all the same things the people in the USEF system are free to do and do: walk really lame horses all night to keep them from stiffening up. Warm them up at a walk so the TD won't see the worst part of it, when they take those first few steps at a trot. Under work a horse for weeks before the competition so his chronic condition will abate, cross their fingers that he won't be too spooky in the ring and go for it. They give substances that won't test or will mask. They use shock wave and other techniques that won't test. They find drugs that have the right effect but clear the system quickly.

The upside to the USEF system is that a very few honest people are given the ability to judiciously use small amounts of medication to help a horse that's 'legitimately sore' - no getting pushed to shows with a chronic condition, but is just a little sore due to getting cast or having a rough haul to the show grounds.

The upside to the FEI system is that it is just plain old harder to cheat.

[ridgeback]

To me the scary thing is how someone can think of excusing themselves for abusively using a horse without allowing for enough non-showing time to clear off mecially active levels (and in the case of bute that's what we are talking about. Not some trace residual or a contamination from an unclean feeding bucket) by argueing it was for the better of the horse. Speaking of talking corners into a circle... But to each their own.
The FEI is increasingly losing credibility by this approach of softening up towards showing under medication. It could easily lead to the foundation of a whole new organisation and thus could further contribute to the road downwards equestrian sport is suffering from in terms of public acceptance (don't even talk of popularity anymore...), sponsors willing to fund events or trophies etc.etc.
Luckily I don't have a horse in this race otherwise I would feel much stronger about it. It's an embarassing discussion and I urge anybody who is wanting to show under medication to seriously reconsider their reasons to be in any equestrian activity at all.
Why not get a tennis racket? They don't need medication, they don't even have a life of their own and most of all they don't require sportsmanship and can even be thrown to the ground in a fit without risking being kicked out. Embarassing.

They are losing credibility among the extremist but not among real horseman. One gram of bute is not a big deal people.:eek:

[siegi b.]

Kareen,

you're a veterinarian, correct? So, let's pretend you wake up in the morning with a splitting headache. Would you ...

a. Take an aspirin and go to work?

or

b. Take the day off because you won't be in any shape to see clients?

or

c. Immediately get an appointment with an oncologist since the headache may be a sign of a brain tumor?

[Thomas_1]

^ Siegi, What an earth has that got to do with anything?

However Siegi, let's pretend you wake up one morning in severe pain because of that long standing injury to your foot. Would you....

a) Take it easy for the day?

b) Take an ibuprofen and rest?

c) Go out and run a load of circles round your riding arena?

[ridgeback]

^ Siegi, What an earth has that got to do with anything?

However Siegi, let's pretend you wake up one morning in severe pain because of that long standing injury to your foot. Would you....

a) Take it easy for the day?

b) Take an ibuprofen and rest?

c) Go out and run a load of circles round your riding arena?

We can what if it to death and by the way one gram of bute is not going to make a horse or person in severe pain(your words) sound and if it does it is not severe.

[Ruby G. Weber]

A one gram dose of Bute 24 hours outside a competition is at best theraputic and certainly not masking of other chemicals or lameness.

One important item mentioned in the COTH coverage of this decision is ..."testing laboratories will be harmonized around the world."

So far this very significant part of the new FEI "doping" regulations has been ignored here. The ELISIA test - which has been employed by USEF for at least a decade now - is extremely sensitive and can determine, in nanograms, the amount of a substance present. With the possibility of a two year suspension looming over anyone whose horse tests "positive" for Bute above the allowable threshhold, or anything other substance aside from hay, oats and GastroGard, I would think "person's responsible" are going to have to be even more cautious as to what, when and how they use pharmaceuticals.

[slc2]

The statement made at the time was that it brings it into line with the USEF. That's one NF it makes it more like.

I don't think it actually makes it the same as other NF's rules.

[Arrows Endure]

Exaggerate much? Giving a top performing, long travelling athlete the equivalent of a horsey-tylenol in order to allow them to shake off the effects of travelling/stress/strange bedding/tense or strained muscles just doesn't seem like the end of dressage as we know it to me. NJR

But it's not just dressage horses that are affected. I understand that dressage horses are athletes, and that they need to be fit and strong to do the work that we ask of them. However, the chances of a horse having a career ending, catastrophic injury during your average dressage test is quite low.

This is affecting 3-day horses, endurance horses, and any other major competitive horse event as well as dressage. I'm sorry, but if you take a horse who is slightly sore for whatever reason into a 100 mile endurance ride, or a three star event, you are going to get horses having MAJOR breakdowns. My background is in endurance. My horses have always been stoic, and it can be hard enough to detect slight problems without any pain killers. If the bute masks a slight suspensory strain after 30 miles and I keep riding, by the time I hit 75 miles I have a horse with a suspensory tear which as we all know, can be career ending or worse. What happens if the bute masks that suspensory strain on an eventing horse and it goes into the cross country phase, tears just before a jump, and takes a spill over the fence. You have a dead horse and rider.

We should not be allowing any pain killers in horses that are competeing. I'm sorry, but equating it to what YOU do is not fair. I CHOSE to ride my horse in whatever discipline, be it dressage, endurance, or whatever. The horse doesn't have that choice. If I want to ride while sore, then so be it. I should not be able to make that decision for my horse. If he's sore, he doesn't compete. Period. I don't care WHY he is sore...

[slc2]

Thank you so much for that perspective. That is very interesting.

[Renae]

A one gram dose of Bute 24 hours outside a competition is at best theraputic and certainly not masking of other chemicals or lameness.

Agreed.

And to the naysayers- no one is making YOU give YOUR horse anything. You can continue as is. And what if you are wrong on your assumption that a sparing use of anti-inflammatories will lead to more equine injuries? What is it leads to fewer of them? A horse has a long rough trip to the event facility and is favoring a front leg, so bute is given in allowed amounts in allowed time parameters and the horse is comfortable and stands evenly on all four legs and by the time its time to compete is sound on all four legs without bute vs. horse who is favoring one front leg from a rough ride and putting more weight on the other and in that process causes inflammation in the front foot that is bearing the extra weight and you have a horse who is either scratched from the competition because he is off in both front legs or is worked through it with both front legs sore and a rider who can ride well enough to (hopefully) mask it. That scenario is just as likely as some some of you have described here.

[Kareen]

Oh thank you *lol*. Mind you this is not about what an owner choses to do or not to do but it is about who can and who can not show and a horse that is on any degree of anti-inflammatory treatment does not belong in a show it's as simple as that. Sorry guys if it is unpleasant but if some of you had attended more dissections of horses that have been on bute for an extended period of time you'd surely stop advocating its indiscriminant use as a cureall for any given 'soreness'.
I'm not sure what to think of a riding and management concept where it seems more or less the norm that a horse is 'sore' from nothing?

Whatever horse I have shown in the past I've made certain they were fit as a nail and sound to compete without medication and there are a lot of athletes who manage very well in the FEI-levels with that very zero tolerance policy. I wonder how and I wonder why it is that those horses don't seem to suffer during competions but they are out there and winning.

How come?

[Ruby G. Weber]

I interpret the statement regarding testing as an assurance that all labs, world wide will be using labs whose tests are equal in sensitivity and have a broad range of substance detection.

For a long time prior to Athens there has been a gap in sensitivity and substance detection between the USEF's lab and others.

[ridgeback]

Oh thank you *lol*. Mind you this is not about what an owner choses to do or not to do but it is about who can and who can not show and a horse that is on any degree of anti-inflammatory treatment does not belong in a show it's as simple as that. Sorry guys if it is unpleasant but if some of you had attended more dissections of horses that have been on bute for an extended period of time you'd surely stop advocating its indiscriminant use as a cureall for any given 'soreness'.
I'm not sure what to think of a riding and management concept where it seems more or less the norm that a horse is 'sore' from nothing?

Whatever horse I have shown in the past I've made certain they were fit as a nail and sound to compete without medication and there are a lot of athletes who manage very well in the FEI-levels with that very zero tolerance policy. I wonder how and I wonder why it is that those horses don't seem to suffer during competions but they are out there and winning.

How come?

Kareen this is YOUR OPINION and you are entitled to it but it doesn't automatically make it right.

[fburton]

Or wrong.

[PineTreeFarm]

I interpret the statement regarding testing as an assurance that all labs, world wide will be using labs whose tests are equal in sensitivity and have a broad range of substance detection.

For a long time prior to Athens there has been a gap in sensitivity and substance detection between the USEF's lab and others.

Question about that Ruby:

My possible way off understanding was that there are only a few labs worldwide that have the equipment needed to do the tests as they are today.

But if the sensitivity of the tests isn't being changed how will allowing some additional meds make labs that up now didn't qualify as testing labs all of a sudden become acceptable?

[Geneva]

With the possibility of a two year suspension looming over anyone whose horse tests "positive" for Bute above the allowable threshhold, or anything other substance aside from hay, oats and GastroGard, I would think "person's responsible" are going to have to be even more cautious as to what, when and how they use pharmaceuticals.as announced by the FEI, the mandatory two year bans are for DOPING cases, not for medication. Medication suspensions will remain as they have been (regardless of whether or not there's a new threshold). All that's changed on sanctions is that the ban for doping went from two years maximum under the old rules (which was twice that for medication), to a mandatory two years.

What they've done is increased the division that was previously there (from 2006) between use of medication class drugs like bute (always presumed to be legitimate veterinary treatment), and use of doping class drugs (presumed by the rules to be performance enhancement).

[Nojacketrequired]

...
This is affecting 3-day horses, endurance horses, and any other major competitive horse event as well as dressage. I'm sorry, but if you take a horse who is slightly sore for whatever reason into a 100 mile endurance ride, or a three star event, you are going to get horses having MAJOR breakdowns. My background is in endurance. My horses have always been stoic, and it can be hard enough to detect slight problems without any pain killers. If the bute masks a slight suspensory strain after 30 miles and I keep riding, by the time I hit 75 miles I have a horse with a suspensory tear which as we all know, can be career ending or worse...

AE...with the qty allowed and the time frame there should BE no appreciable amount of Bute LEFT in the system to cover anything or allow and painkilling effects, at the point of actual competition, if I am understanding this correctly. You aren't showing a drugged horse. The drug shoul.d have been metabolized quite easily before your event, if given within the mandated rules. It isnt covering an active injury that will keep them out of the game. It is helping with perhaps a muscle strain that (as an example) from travelling that can be helped to heal quicker on the lead up to the event by using Bute. If the horse isn't sound on the day of, no real horseman is going to compete, and the Bute from 24 hours before isn't going to mask anything.

Someone tell me if I'm mistaken in my interpreation.

NJR

[Fixerupper]

If the horse isn't sound on the day of, no real horseman is going to compete

small reflection on elite horse sport

What concerns me the most about the 'outrage' over RK and the 'tempest in a teapot' over the new medication rules is the assumption that the top riders, in all sports, don't care for the horses but just for the 'glory'.
Where did this iconoclast mentality come from?
There are bad apples in every human endeavor..but when did people in horse sport start assuming that success=abuse?
I have worked with a number of riders at the the 'top' level in several horse sports...they have made mistakes, at times, and used bad judgment, occasionally, as do all people in any effort in life...
But not one has ever failed to recognize the occasional error of their ways and worked to improve their 'horsemanship'...if they don't...they don't continue to succeed. In my opinion the mistakes don't count as abuse...but as human nature and learning curves.

The assumption that the 'top riders' don't care for their horses is very destructive to the whole sport!

The 'top riders' are you with more talent and better horses...no more...no less...

[MEP]

Yay Fixerupper! That's a very important point!

And it seems that a lot of you who are upset about the rule change seem to assume that competitors are going to keep their horses on bute continuously - I think the damage seen in dissection is the result of long term use (i.e., with horses experiencing navicular pain, for instance, where they are given regular, rather high doses of bute). Any vet book written for horse owners makes it very clear that prolonged use of bute has serious side effects - and I would hope and expect any vet doing his/her job would warn owners that long term bute causes serious problems.

But I would assume, along with a lot of other people who support the rule change, that very small doses of bute, which we're talking about here, being used on an as-needed basis - and certainly not continuously - are not going to cause the digestive tract problems you're talking about. Nor will it hide lameness. What it will do is help alleviate the long term effects of inflammation.

And about the point that human athletes can choose to continue through pain or injury while animals can't make that choice for themselves: neither can horses 'fake' being sound to pass a vet exam. If the horse is uneven or lame, it won't pass the required vet inspection prior to any of the FEI competitions. I don't know that they do any sample collections at the inspections, but surely if someone drugged their horse enough to pass the pre-competition inspection, it would certainly show up if the horse was sampled during the course of a competition.

Now, on the national level I don't know if all competitions have inspections, but if there are any FEI classes, they must be checked by a vet committee. And it's on the national level that I think we see a lot more of the true doping infractions.

[Kareen]

It's my job, I know what happens. Money talks...
Also it's not just my opinion but effective law not only where I live but also in Switzerland and many other European countries. So the FEI at present is risking to exclude these countries even from the WEG 2010 because as far as I know State law is still going first and no FN in their right mind is going to send out athletes when they have to risk them being caught violating laws once they step out of the plane because of some 'medication' that was disclosed during competition?!

Interestingly nobody has answered the questions above:
How do athletes manage their horses now and why are people trying to mask their interest (showing more) as being applied animal welfare? The vast majority of drugs will have completely cleared the system after as little time as 2-3 weeks. What the heck is the problem with being unable to show for 2-3 weeks upon medication, especially when you all seem to assume those horses affected won't be on 'constant medication' anyways?

Everybody who screams up here for softening up the drugging rules please ask yourself: Would you buy a horse that came out with a residual blood- or urine-level of Bute during a PPE and you know had been medicated 24h before the flexion tests were done? I don't think so. Be honest: Who has ever done something like that especially in N.A. where medication is allegedly viewed so leniently. What would you think of your vet or agent who recommended such purchase and if you don't think it's ethical to administer Bute to a horse 24h prior to a PPE then pls explain to me the difference to giving Bute to him 24h prior to a competition.

Only difference I can see: Case 1 could potentially be beneficial to the seller (=bad person to begin with in most buyer's minds) Case 2 could be potentially beneficial to yourself/rider (=gold standard of moral behavior codes).

G-i-v-e m-e a break!

PS And yes, nojacketrequired, administration of Bute 24h prior to a show will mask a whole lot of things. Like someone else has pointed out, the substance has a high affinity to those spots in the body where it works. It can therefor be actively painkilling while the residual levels are very low. That is one reason why it is so widely used and abused by medical professionals and even owners.

[slc2]

This 'dialogue' bears a striking resemblance to the one on hyperflexion. :lol: Neither side is listening to the other.

Fixerupper, I don't think all successful riders are abusers who misuse drugs. Many people do, though. I think even the most decent people are put under a great deal of pressure. Maybe not always their own pressure to excel, but also organizers, owners and others.

I think that with the media as it is, the ordinary dressage fan doesn't really get to see who is abusive, and who isn't; I think their picture of who is and isn't is quite distorted. Such competitors are good at concealing what they do.

I also think there are many more 'shades of grey'. A rider can avoid over competing and over using an older horse. Or he can use medications without getting caught, warmup at a walk, and avoid working the horse a few weeks before a show. Whether he's doing the former or the latter is often just opinion!

Everyone...EVERYONE has a different idea about when it shades from 'taking care of the horse' to 'cheating' and 'misusing the horse'.

Our USEF system allows for some more drug tolerance than the FEI system, we do know that. For me personally, as nice as it is for people showing locally and regionally, and showing older or not quite right horses, I don't think it's appropriate for horses showing at the international levels.

I think that requires a different system because it is different.

I think the USEF system results in more use of medications, and more horses at shows that should be home. The idea behind the FEI system is that horses shouldn't need anything while competing, other than ice, massage, etc.

[Arrows Endure]

[QUOTE=MEP;4513535]What it will do is help alleviate the long term effects of inflammation.

And about the point that human athletes can choose to continue through pain or injury while animals can't make that choice for themselves: neither can horses 'fake' being sound to pass a vet exam. If the horse is uneven or lame, it won't pass the required vet inspection prior to any of the FEI competitions. ENDQUOTE ]

Inflammation is always there for a reason. By removing the inflammation and source of pain and not allowing what caused it to heal propertly, you are risking more damage. Bute has a half life of 6 hours or so, so depending on how much you give, there is going to be an appreciable amount left in the system 24 hours later.

We aren't talking about someones back yard pony that they are doing baby novice eventing on here. We are talking about top competitors. About horses that are going to be asked to jump and run and work at the highest level. Even a tiny problem can cause a devestating consequence at this level! A minor muscle sprain, or sore muscles from traveling can cause a horse to carry himself differently than normal and will put undue stress on other joints and muscles, which can lead to breakdown. Not to mention, if the sore spot is in any way masked by trace amounts of bute, that place is likely to become more injured.

How many of you have had surgery on a joint? I have had both knees repaired. I know that on painkillers, they started to feel pretty good, so I went out and did too much, and it really set my rehab back whenever I did that.

No one is saying that all upper level people are out there to abuse their horses, and drug them to get them to work, or anything like that. What I'm worried about is the few that will stretch the rules as much as possible to win. You know they exist! If ONE horse is injured because the FEI allows buting 24 hours prior to competition, it is too many. High level horse sports are dangerous enough, we need to give the horse every chance to come out of it completely healthy and sound, and that means requiring that they be completely free of NSAID's before competition. There is NO competition worth the life of your horse, I don't care how big it is...

[MEP]

Inflammation is always there for a reason. By removing the inflammation and source of pain and not allowing what caused it to heal propertly, you are risking more damage. Bute has a half life of 6 hours or so, so depending on how much you give, there is going to be an appreciable amount left in the system 24 hours later.

We aren't talking about someones back yard pony that they are doing baby novice eventing on here. We are talking about top competitors. About horses that are going to be asked to jump and run and work at the highest level. Even a tiny problem can cause a devestating consequence at this level! A minor muscle sprain, or sore muscles from traveling can cause a horse to carry himself differently than normal and will put undue stress on other joints and muscles, which can lead to breakdown. Not to mention, if the sore spot is in any way masked by trace amounts of bute, that place is likely to become more injured.

How many of you have had surgery on a joint? I have had both knees repaired. I know that on painkillers, they started to feel pretty good, so I went out and did too much, and it really set my rehab back whenever I did that.

No one is saying that all upper level people are out there to abuse their horses, and drug them to get them to work, or anything like that. What I'm worried about is the few that will stretch the rules as much as possible to win. You know they exist! If ONE horse is injured because the FEI allows buting 24 hours prior to competition, it is too many. High level horse sports are dangerous enough, we need to give the horse every chance to come out of it completely healthy and sound, and that means requiring that they be completely free of NSAID's before competition. There is NO competition worth the life of your horse, I don't care how big it is...

My understanding is that ALL exercise, you might even say all physical activity, causes inflammation. That is actually how muscle and stamina are built. So inflammation is not necessarily a degenerative process, but can be an important factor in developing or maintaining fitness and strength.

And of course these top level athletes are not back yard ponies. Their schedules and fitness are very carefully planned out so that they peak at target competitions. And in most cases, regular exercise is a better method than big exercise and complete rest which it seems is what some people here are recommending. I'll talk about what appears to be a common management strategy in the jumpers because I've directly observed more of them at the top level than dressage - but I would suspect that the same principles apply in all disciplines.

I'll use the World Cup qualifying winter circuit as a 'for instance.' After the end of the outdoor season, a top horse might be 'rested' for a couple of weeks, maybe a month. Resting at home would probably consist of daily hand walks, plus hacking or flat work. As I understand it, the top horses are rarely schooled jumping unless there is an issue that has developed and then they would usually be jumped at a lower fence level than that at which they compete. They usually arrive at a 4 or 5 day show a day early. Again, hand walked and/or flatted/hacked. During the days of the show, they are usually taken in one or two of the warm-up classes, say Thursday and Friday or Saturday, then in the big Grand Prix which is a WC qualifier on Sunday (depending on the show schedule - this is just a 'for instance'). All of these activities are going to produce inflammation - that's how muscle and stamina are built. But after the big class, jumping higher fences, bigger spreads, and the most technical questions, that is when I, as a horse owner, would want to see my horse get a small amount of an anti-inflammatory IF I thought he/she needed it. Then it is a travel day, which would probably include hand walking depending on how far they have to go to get to the next show.

Traveling around Europe through the circuit, the time spent in the trailer are probably not too strenuous - a couple of hours maybe. It seems that many of the riders do a series of the shows - maybe two to four in a row, then a week or two off. Or they start later in the series, a few more shows in a row in order to qualify. It all culminates in the final, and your horse better be fit for it. Wednesday, free warm-up day (a couple of minute session to jump a small course or just flat in the competition arena). Thursday, Speed class (no jump-off). Friday, big class - grand prix size with a jump off (and sometimes riders opt not to do the jump-off). Sunday, two rounds, maximum size fences, maximum difficulty - if there is a tie at the end, there can be a jump-off (but that usually doesn't happen). And, again, here is where I'd probably want to give the horse a little bute because of the extra exertion of such a major series of classes for a championship.

Now if the horses had to travel long distance for the final (Sri Lanka or Las Vegas) then I'd want to be able to bute accordingly. The longer the time standing, the more likely I would be to do this.

Usually, following the final, the horses are then taken home for turn-out, hacking out, or flatwork for a couple of weeks, maybe longer, depending what other competitions were coming up - a big championship in late summer, for which qualifying must take place, etc.

These horses are managed VERY carefully. Fitness is achieved through closely monitored exercise and each horse is different so some of the details will vary depending on age, level of experience, and the horses' stage in his/her career. Very few of these riders/owners wants to jeopardize their horses' lives - I'm very carefully not going to say 'None of them' because I can't honestly say that there might not be one or two out there who are willing to risk their horses' lives or careers just to jump one more course. But if they do that, they won't stay at the top levels very long, that's for sure. And another observation: The total value of the horse, just the $$ value, is not worth one class prize money. Even the most greedy or avid competitor or horse-owner is certifiably nuts if they're willing to squander the life or career of a horse for one prize.

As far as your knee surgery analogy - if anyone is attempting to show a horse while it is still on pain medication following surgery - again, they're totally nuts. Your analogy is not really appropriate, but it does give some support to an argument why the animals should be regularly exercised at an appropriate level while competing - extended time off in my experience is usually when injuries happen.

I think this also answers Kareen's 'unaddressed' question. As far as the 'would I buy a horse on bute for the ppe' - the answer is: It Depends. If the seller discloses the horse was given bute for such and such a reason, well maybe. If it is not disclosed and I found out through blood testing, ummm, most likely no. If it was given a small dose of bute on the evening after doing a GP Freestyle on Sunday, ummm, probably yes. (But I'll only be buying a horse at that level in my dreams :lol:)

[Fixerupper]

Wow...there's a plan?
And here we all thought it was just a random hash of drilling horses, chasing $$ and getting by on drugs ;)

nicely put MEP...(but they still won't believe it :lol:)

[nhwr]

If the half life of bute is 6 hours and a horse has received 1 gram; in 6 hours there will be 1/2 of a gram in its system, in 12 hours there will be 1/4 of a gram in its system, in 18 hours there will be 1/8 of a gram in its system and in 24 hours there will be 1/16 of a gram in the horse's system.
I realize that because of suppression of pgs metabolism it is not quite that simple, but let's assume for the moment it is.

Are there significant issues that can be concealed by 1/16 of a gram of bute?

[Fixerupper]

badda bing

[Karoline]

To me the scary thing is how someone can think of excusing themselves for abusively using a horse without allowing for enough non-showing time to clear off mecially active levels (and in the case of bute that's what we are talking about. Not some trace residual or a contamination from an unclean feeding bucket) by argueing it was for the better of the horse. Speaking of talking corners into a circle... But to each their own.
The FEI is increasingly losing credibility by this approach of softening up towards showing under medication. It could easily lead to the foundation of a whole new organisation and thus could further contribute to the road downwards equestrian sport is suffering from in terms of public acceptance (don't even talk of popularity anymore...), sponsors willing to fund events or trophies etc.etc.
Luckily I don't have a horse in this race otherwise I would feel much stronger about it. It's an embarassing discussion and I urge anybody who is wanting to show under medication to seriously reconsider their reasons to be in any equestrian activity at all.
Why not get a tennis racket? They don't need medication, they don't even have a life of their own and most of all they don't require sportsmanship and can even be thrown to the ground in a fit without risking being kicked out. Embarassing.

Amen. I wish more vets were willling to speak up as you do. I am saddened with the FEI opening the door to making it ok to compete horses who are not 100% sound and healthy. I also want to learn more about the other drugs that are now allowed.

[RAyers]

I feel what is being lost is the fact that due to testing sensitivities, there is no such thing as a "clean" horse anymore. The FEI and others have finally run up against this in cases where a horse could be off a drug for MONTHS, well after the vet has cleared the horse to go back to competitions, and a miniscule, non-therapeutic level of the compound is still found in the animal.

At the same time there appears to be this misconception that blood tests are more sensitive to metabolites than urine tests when the urine tests are more sensitive to the metabolites after extended periods (per the research presented by the groups that developed the blood tests). Therefore, if a urine test is clear, the blood test should be questioned. Only of both show metabolites would the tests be considered conclusive.

By having a zero tolerance the FEI painted itself into a corner in having most horses test positive for some form of drug, violating the rules, even if unintentionally.

Just to give perspective as to testing sensitivity and the insanity it presents.

A nanogram is 1/1,000,000 of a gram or about the weight of a grain of sand. Thus, the concentration of 300ng/ml is really a measure of 3 parts for every million. It is like looking for 400 very specific people in the entire US (pop of approx. 400 million) or 6 small bolts in the entire Space Shuttle, or using a telescope to see a candle in LA from New York. Seeing INDIVIDUAL atoms in a material requires only a 2,000,000 times magnification. So you can see that these measurements get into a very gray area.

Considering that most therapeutic dosages are in the order of parts per 100,000, the measurement of parts per million is beyond what is needed. In our labs we can measure things in the parts per TRILLION (3 orders of magnitude even finer). This is where drug testing has gone off the deep end. The ability to measure something so fine precludes the idea that there is any effect. There is no such thing as perfectly clear or pure. The only reason in the past we thought there was was because we could not measure it.

Sure there are compounds and such that will kill in the parts per trillion range - plutonium etc. - but most pharmaceutics have no action at that level unless used in a VERY specifically designed delivery system into the targeted tissue.

Reed

[canyonoak]

Thank you, Reed.

[fburton]

By having a zero tolerance the FEI painted itself into a corner in having most horses test positive for some form of drug, violating the rules, even if unintentionally.
"Zero tolerance" isn't intended to be taken literally in terms of drug concentrations, surely? That would be insane, I agree.

[RAyers]

"Zero tolerance" isn't intended to be taken literally in terms of drug concentrations, surely? That would be insane, I agree.

That is the what the FEI adheres to from my experience. I am an eventer and have ridden at the FEI 2-star level for numerous years. FEI has failed to account for drug testing sensitivity as the techniques became better and better. They do have a vague statement in Annex II that allows for the idea of thresholds but also establishes an exclusive list of acceptable thresholds for only metabolites of estrogen, testosterone, aspirin, DMSO, boldenone, and cortisone. They exclude specific thresholds for everything else, thus allowing them to either have a zero-tolerence or to allow tolerance based on subjective opinion.

My FEI vet always told me to have a separate sets of buckets and to remove EVERY drug/supplement 2 weeks ahead of competition. I didn't even let my FEI horses share water tanks at home or put my horses into non-FEI horse stalls.

[Kareen]

You're listening to way too much PR from riders and trainers with questionable ethics. Why do you think they have to pull tailhair instead of serum or urine samples from colts that are randomly tested for steroid abuse?
As a matter of fact after merely 12 weeks post administration of a nandrolone shot the only place where you can detect it is the tail and after 6 months you won't find the drug anywhere even with the most modern technology available on the planet today.
These are drugs that are not only long-acting but also threatening a horse's longterm soundness so they do not compare to the antiinflammatories listed in the progressive list for that matter.
But it is simply not true that you will find residual serum or urine levels or metabolists until the cows come home. In fact the detection times on most antiinflammatories are pretty moderate so pretending horses can't be treated correctly without risking their show career is plain and simple BS from the pharmacokinetic pov.

Interestingly the FEI veterinary board wasn't even heard over this but it looks like a sudden and rather sad pushover attempt by Beerbaum and Pessoa who are speaking for the jumper's.

Around here the latest bush-drum news are that Deutsche Bank has made clear they will prolong their sponsorship for Aachen but the show is still going to be held with the zero tolerance policy. Will be interesting to follow this process and whether or not the WEG will be held without those European countries who have a zero tolerance policy in their animal welfare laws such as Switzerland or Germany. I have no idea what the policies are like in Holland but their animal welfare rules are generally just as sharp as our here although they still insist on clipping tactile hair which is banned in Switzerland and Germany. But then they have stopped hot branding ages ago while it is still done here.

[mares tails]

A nanogram is 1/1,000,000 of a gram or about the weight of a grain of sand. Thus, the concentration of 300ng/ml is really a measure of 3 parts for every million.Right idea (a nanogram is really, really small), but wrong math/units :lol:

A microgram is 1/1,000,000 of a gram.
A nanogram is 1/1,000 of a microgram.
300ng/mL is 300 parts per billion.

.

[ridgeback]

I have no idea what the policies are like in Holland but their animal welfare rules are generally just as sharp as our here although they still insist on clipping tactile hair which is banned in Switzerland and Germany. But then they have stopped hot branding ages ago while it is still done here.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: a law about clipping...OMG so German and so scary. But you don't have a law about turnout. Oh no don't clip the horse but it is ok to lock a horse in a stall 23 1/2 hours a day....HYPOCRISY AT ITS FINEST.:mad:

[fburton]

What practical purpose is served by clipping tactile hairs?

[mbm]

whoa fburton - dont go there !:) people get very uppity if you even suggest that muzzle hairs need to stay.

see other threads on this forum for examples:)

[eurodressage]

To Rayers:

Following the many conclusions and suggestions the clean sport committee has made, the FEI is now moving away from the phrase "zero-tolerance" and will be using "no tolerance" instead in order to be more precise.

Also the laboratories all over the world used by the FEI to test banned substances and controlled medication have been harmonized. They are all testing the same way now (level of sensitivity), so one lab is no longer "stricter" than the other.

.. at least in theory..

[ridgeback]

What practical purpose is served by clipping tactile hairs?

Some discipline's like the look of a clean shaven horse but I think it is ironic there is an actual law :rolleyes::rolleyes: What is more harmful to a horse clipping or taking a GRAZING animal and locking them up. It is pretty clear where I stand. Don't mean to get the thread of course but I couldn't stop myself when someone says there is a law about clipping.

[mbm]

question: should people with no ability to keep horses on pasture not have horses?

what about all those horses who do live in stalls...... do we create rules that say a horse must have x amount of space to move?

do we limit the number of horses being born to fit in that guideline?

perhaps some of the rules you seem to think are frivolous or silly are just a beginning?

maybe they are doing what they can against huge pushback?

just guesses....

[Kareen]

There obviously are rules in place to state the minimum space in stalls and to say that each animal must be given adequate opportunity to exercise. Whether they are enforced or not grossly depends on your federal veterinary colleague and in some districts they are pretty sharp while in others they are not. But the bottom line is yes there are rules in place and I think it's great that we have them.
Whether or not I personally think it's tolerable for a grazing animal like a horse to not receive free turnout isn't really relevant. Some working horses certainly get more exercise than your average overweight shetland pony that is out 24/7 grazing themselves to death in people's backyard and sure enough the term 'adequate' is the key.
More isn't always better as we can see in so many examples but everything is a matter of dosage and applying the adequate dosage requires a certain degree of knowledge so it will always depend on those who represent the law if and how any given rule will make sense.
For instance I would know a whole bunch of pediatrics who would strongly advocate a legal limit for a child's exposure to television.
Whether or not it is accepted everybody knows most children are spending more time in front of the TV than they benefit from.

So if we want to get philosophical about these questions here I don't think we'll get anywhere.

I do take issue with the way the FEI has handled the matter thus far and I definitely think those who think it's ok to expose horses to competitive sport in a way that inevitably renders them dependant to constant medical 'maintenance' are wrong.
If a horse can't withstand the challenges of a show season without antiinflammatory treatment it is probably showing too much or not trained well enough. Could also be it has been pushed too hard too early to sell for more $$. I don't want to glorify what has been done to and with horses during the days people's lifes were depending much more directly on them than today where the most meaningful purpose a horse is being bred and sold for is to go in some form of sport be it racing, competitive dressage, show jumping or whatever.
But I can tell you that despite dramatically improved medical knowledge and technology the average lifespan of a sporthorse has not significantly improved over the last 20 yrs like one would reasonably expect it to.
So something must be wrong about the status quo of the sport don't you think?
As a matter of fact it looks as if the increased quality of horses has contributed to a drastic decrease in lifespan and that seems odd for all the 'excellent care and management' that goes specifically into the top athletes (equine I mean) nowadays.

[ridgeback]

There obviously are rules in place to state the minimum space in stalls and to say that each animal must be given adequate opportunity to exercise. Whether they are enforced or not grossly depends on your federal veterinary colleague and in some districts they are pretty sharp while in others they are not. But the bottom line is yes there are rules in place and I think it's great that we have them.
Whether or not I personally think it's tolerable for a grazing animal like a horse to not receive free turnout isn't really relevant. Some working horses certainly get more exercise than your average overweight shetland pony that is out 24/7 grazing themselves to death in people's backyard and sure enough the term 'adequate' is the key.
More isn't always better as we can see in so many examples but everything is a matter of dosage and applying the adequate dosage requires a certain degree of knowledge so it will always depend on those who represent the law if and how any given rule will make sense.
For instance I would know a whole bunch of pediatrics who would strongly advocate a legal limit for a child's exposure to television.
Whether or not it is accepted everybody knows most children are spending more time in front of the TV than they benefit from.

So if we want to get philosophical about these questions here I don't think we'll get anywhere.

I do take issue with the way the FEI has handled the matter thus far and I definitely think those who think it's ok to expose horses to competitive sport in a way that inevitably renders them dependant to constant medical 'maintenance' are wrong.
If a horse can't withstand the challenges of a show season without antiinflammatory treatment it is probably showing too much or not trained well enough. Could also be it has been pushed too hard too early to sell for more $$. I don't want to glorify what has been done to and with horses during the days people's lifes were depending much more directly on them than today where the most meaningful purpose a horse is being bred and sold for is to go in some form of sport be it racing, competitive dressage, show jumping or whatever.
But I can tell you that despite dramatically improved medical knowledge and technology the average lifespan of a sporthorse has not significantly improved over the last 20 yrs like one would reasonably expect it to.
So something must be wrong about the status quo of the sport don't you think?
As a matter of fact it looks as if the increased quality of horses has contributed to a drastic decrease in lifespan and that seems odd for all the 'excellent care and management' that goes specifically into the top athletes (equine I mean) nowadays.

Kareen can't have it both ways. Horses are grazing animals they are meant to eat grass and graze over many miles a day. If your countries are silly enough to have laws about clipping the whiskers off and it has been more then proven by the hunter/jumper world horses do not hurt themselves without them then it just shows the hypocrisy to scream about animal welfare and ignore this very important point. If some of you are going to get all up in arms about 1 gram of bute and the horse doesn't have a say so blah blah blah well then address the more important part of welfare and that is most of these top level horses do not get turned out. You can't scream animal welfare about RK or the bute issue and ignore the turnout issue. Please do not tell me how "you" turnout your horses because we are talking about the FEI level horses and many if not most of the FEI GP level horses do not get turned out for hours a day.

[Kareen]

So that makes it right? Are you talking about German GP horses, US GP horses or GP horses in general? Your above post only confirms that things are utterly wrong in the sport and need change.

[ridgeback]

So that makes it right? Are you talking about German GP horses, US GP horses or GP horses in general? Your above post only confirms that things are utterly wrong in the sport and need change.

Everywhere... I don't disagree much needs to change and I would say that you would have sounder horses if they were ridden for the day and turned out where they could move around. I don't think one gram of bute is going to do anything dramatic to the horse but if it makes them a tad more comfortable then I have no problem with it. Personally I think if these horses were turned out more and were able to do what they were built to do many of these problems would go away.

[siegi b.]

Kareen - you're not consistent! You want to throw the book at someone who gives his horse 1 gram of bute the day before a competition, but you're willing to leave the enforcement of adequate turn-out to some unidentified state vet that may or may not know what to do.

For someone who seems to be an "entweder/oder (either/or)" person, that doesn't make sense.

I've said all along that there are so many other reasons for throwing the proverbial book at horse owners - many more than those that practice RK - that getting so winded about the possibility of RK being bad for horses, or whether or not 1 gram of Bute will give a horse unfair advantages, seems a little out of proportion.

I guess what it boils down to is the fact that general horse problems just don't have the media's attention and, therefore, are not nearly as interesting.

[Kareen]

Definitely not true. I am just now involved in a lengthy and pretty controversial discussion over on Horsegate involving the question whether or not breeding stallions should have turnout. It was a spinoff from a thread about a recent TV-show about the Schockemöhle operation and my position is more than clear on the issue.

It definitely is up to each and every person to stand up for their personal views of right and wrong which I feel I am doing quite a lot regardless of whether or not it will affect me economically or wins me a popularity contest. However as a practical vet I am in no position to professionally interfer with anybody's ways of doing business unless I am personally involved. That's what federal vets are there for and they are far from being unidentified but can be addressed by everybody who personally witnesses animal welfare violations within their proximity.

If everybody would clean up in their own yard like I do life would be a lot better for a lot of animals. Unfortunately many people are either to shy or too lazy to look behind some of the scenes when all it takes is to walk through the world with an open eye and ask a question here and there. E.g. I've found people normally willingly tell you about their working conditions and what's going on if they trust you won't use it against them. So in my experience it is very easy to obtain inside knowledge about what happens if you take an interest.

But most people don't or they fear to be percepted as intruding when their motivation in reality is to learn about what goes on.

[slc2]

I should have known a discussion of the progressive medication list would quickly and easily turn to pasturing and whisker laws, LOL!

I don't think the law says you can't cut off whiskers, I think it is not worded exactly that way. And there are laws in America that you can't tie an alligator to a parking meter, can't ride a horse at a gallop down Main Street, or that if you ignore an orator on Decoration day by playing horse shoes within a mile of where he's speaking, you can be fined 25 dollars. Every country, state, town and berg has goofy laws, and 'goofy' is an opinion, not a fact. At some point in time, it was important to have a law to prohibit galloping on Main Street, and much social belief or 'opinion of the day' is solidified in laws.

The issue is the progressive medication rule that just changed. To summarize - some are in favor of the change, some are not.

I think it's very easy for people who use medication judiciously and conservatively to forget that not all people will. And unfortunately, I think the progressive list changes will result in more negative consequences than positive.

I think quite often, rules for competition are made that inconvenience the many in order to stop the few from taking an unfair advantage.

My partner said something interesting - "The more medication you are allowed to use, the more horses will 'need' it".

He sees it as kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. As an example, 'a few' race horses needed lasix years ago. After a few years, virtually every race horse now 'needs' to run on lasix.

If you 'can' give a horse bute after shipping to a competition, pretty soon, many, most, all, horses will 'need' bute after shipping to a competition. Then if you can give a horse bute to 24 hr before the competition, eventually, many, most, all, horses will 'need' bute 24 hr before the competition, and that will just be a part of a longer term medication use. Then if horses 'can' get bute between classes at a show or between back to back competitions, more and more will also 'need' that.

[ridgeback]

SLC Kareen lives in Germany and she should know what her laws are.

[slc2]

Why of course, dear. :D

However, my point remains and I'm stickin' to it. Laws are made for many reasons - to benefit the many, to stop the few, to codify social opinion. Laws don't always make sense. What laws people have is based on what laws they want. Laws aren't always 'just' or 'fair' in each person's opinion. Law is just - law.

Obviously, someone in that country thought cutting off whiskers was a problem. There, whiskers are commonly considered to be a sensory organ. What the hay that has to do with the progressive medication rule change is totally beyond me.

[ridgeback]

Why of course, dear. :D

However, my point remains and I'm stickin' to it. Laws are made for many reasons - to benefit the many, to stop the few, to codify social opinion. Laws don't always make sense. What laws people have is based on what laws they want. Laws aren't always 'just' or 'fair' in each person's opinion. Law is just - law.

Obviously, someone in that country thought cutting off whiskers was a problem. There, whiskers are commonly considered to be a sensory organ. What the hay that has to do with the progressive medication rule change is totally beyond me.

No kidding SLC...Point being all these AR people screaming about 1 gram of bute or RK is funny when they don't discuss the more harmful thing to a horse and that is 23/7 locked up in a stall. Where is the outrage!! When people are going to yell about a horse doesn't have a say so on RK or bute it looks hypocritical they don't feel the same about turnout. They want to control what training method someone uses or what small amounts of medication but oh they won't touch the turnout issue probably because some are in situations where their horses don't get turned out or they get turned out in small postage stamp paddocks for a couple hours a day. I'm really addressing the people who live in that black and white world where RK is dangerous, cruel and hurts the horse and any sort of medication to make a horse a little more comfortable is wrong wrong.

[siegi b.]

Kareen said..... "If everybody would clean up in their own yard like I do life would be a lot better for a lot of animals."

Wise, wise words .... :yes::yes::yes: And maybe then folks wouldn't be so quick to point the finger at other people.

[canyonoak]

But...but...but...this is not about welfare of the horse, this is about power and who has it.

The FEI has ruled that all those involved in the Cornet Oblensky scandal may not hold FEI power positions.

That would include FN prez Breido, Haring, WEndt and I have forgotten who else, but all high FN board members.

So now the FN members are trying to tell FEI that the FN and their new European Federation (EEF) could take all their toys and go play in a different sandbox.

I cannot believe grown human beings spend their lives pissing away time and energy this way when horse sport really really needs a united front now.

For umpteen years, Germans etc have been coming to the US where 15mcg/ml has been the rule for bute in serum/plasma...


For umpteen years, US riders have been going to Europe ,where zero tolerance has been the name of the game.

Now, we have a chance to standardize a therapeutic piffle, and there is all this hue and cry over nothingness.

I am just sad.

[Kareen]

Why do you say it's nothingness? It's certainly not nothingness to the 1700+ people who have signed at no-fei.com in the few days it has been up?
If the US competitiors have never had problems showing over here with the zero tolerance in place (and apparently they have had way less problems than our own guys for that matter *lol*) then where from and why the huge efforts to get rid of the zero-tolerance policy?
Or - since nobody has really answered this question before - why do you think the only way to be comfortable for a show horse is to do the equine equivalent of 'popping an advil'? It's not. There are very successful and reasonable approaches to manageing the competitive FEI level horse without clinging to the drugshelf like the devil to the soul.
There is just this huge misperception that antiinflammatory substances is something that has no adverse effects 'if dosed carefully' and does nothing but to 'take away some soreness'.
If a sports career inevitably has to involve medical aid there is something wrong with the career, not with the horse...
Horses can and do develop EGUS from as little as not being in a field 24/7 let alone being transported long distance to shows back and forth. There is absolutely no way you can justify increasing the risk factors by adding xmg of Bute as a means of 'maintaining fitness' which apparently is one of the meds the forces being want to be on that progressive list most desperately when in my opinion the substance they should be trying to get on (if any) would be omeprazole to prevent the side effects from what already is a challengeing lifestyle even without being administered 'maintenance dosings' of antiinflammatories just so they can move sound?!

[fburton]

Why do you say it's nothingness? It's certainly not nothingness to the 1700+ people who have signed at no-fei.com in the few days it has been up?
There were 3636 signatures when I signed.

(Now, where's the petition against 23/7 stabling? :( )

[RAyers]

Why do you say it's nothingness? It's certainly not nothingness to the 1700+ people who have signed at no-fei.com in the few days it has been up?
If the US competitiors have never had problems showing over here with the zero tolerance in place (and apparently they have had way less problems than our own guys for that matter *lol*) then where from and why the huge efforts to get rid of the zero-tolerance policy?
Or - since nobody has really answered this question before - why do you think the only way to be comfortable for a show horse is to do the equine equivalent of 'popping an advil'? It's not. There are very successful and reasonable approaches to manageing the competitive FEI level horse without clinging to the drugshelf like the devil to the soul.
There is just this huge misperception that antiinflammatory substances is something that has no adverse effects 'if dosed carefully' and does nothing but to 'take away some soreness'.
If a sports career inevitably has to involve medical aid there is something wrong with the career, not with the horse...
Horses can and do develop EGUS from as little as not being in a field 24/7 let alone being transported long distance to shows back and forth. There is absolutely no way you can justify increasing the risk factors by adding xmg of Bute as a means of 'maintaining fitness' which apparently is one of the meds the forces being want to be on that progressive list most desperately when in my opinion the substance they should be trying to get on (if any) would be omeprazole to prevent the side effects from what already is a challengeing lifestyle even without being administered 'maintenance dosings' of antiinflammatories just so they can move sound?!


Go back to what I said about the levels of sensitivity. Because drug tests pick up levels of drug WELL below the therapeutic level the FEI HAD to have implicit thresholds for the past many years. They just were selective in who was punished. They are finally codifying some of the levels allowed.

Again, at the levels we can test, NO horse is "clean" I promise you. The simple sharing of a bucket or waterer can enable a horse to pick up any medication residue from another horse that can be measured. Like I said, we can measure certain drugs in the parts per TRILLION (akin to finding and identifying a SINGLE, specific cell in your entire body). Sadly, at that level we KNOW there is no therapeutic effect (unless it is plutonium or other) so that becomes an implicit threshold.

It is foolish to be able to test to such an exacting degree and still say "zero-, or no tolerance." It is simply kidding yourselves that the horses are "pure."

Reed

[Kareen]

We don't need any because there already are laws in place which ban 23/7 stabling. If you feel these rules needs to be enforced more strongly anywhere you will have to address the fedvet in charge. In the district where I live I can say I am unaware of any horses that do not receive any free turnout. Not that our district is particularly large but it's the one I work in so I try to monitor just that because it is an area I can try to oversee by means of a high number of contacts within my proximity who are well aware of the matter and won't hesitate to talk to people who don't bother to get turnout for their horses.

[Arrows Endure]

Ok, what I now find funny is that I've been labled an "animal rights" person because I don't believe that bute should be allowed in competition. There is new one. Next thing you know, I'm going to be at a dog show turning the pooches loose and screaming "be FRRREEEEEEE".

Regardless, no one is saying you can't give a horse bute should he need it. Heck, I've given mine bute. Once when he was gelded and once when his pasture mate kicked him in the knee. My general rule of thumb is if it takes my horse 1 week to be 100% sound without medication (that means not stiff or sore or limpy or anything), then he gets one additional week off of work. That means, when I put him back in work, there should be no more medication on board causing any kind of affect. What we are objecting to is COMPETITION under the influence of bute.

This isn't about turnout or rollkur or soring tennessee walkers or starving horses. The folks that brought up whiskers and turnout just seem to be trying to distract everyone from what this issue really is. There are many forms of abuse, and some people do things I don't care for and wouldn't do, but I can't really call it abuse providing the horse is happy, sound, and healthy. But I can't ignore one form of abuse just because there are other kinds that might be as bad or worse.

[ridgeback]

There were 3636 signatures when I signed.

(Now, where's the petition against 23/7 stabling? :( )

So you are a hypocrit.

[ridgeback]

We don't need any because there already are laws in place which ban 23/7 stabling. If you feel these rules needs to be enforced more strongly anywhere you will have to address the fedvet in charge. In the district where I live I can say I am unaware of any horses that do not receive any free turnout. Not that our district is particularly large but it's the one I work in so I try to monitor just that because it is an area I can try to oversee by means of a high number of contacts within my proximity who are well aware of the matter and won't hesitate to talk to people who don't bother to get turnout for their horses.

well they aren't going a good job. I've been to sales barns in Germany with little or no turnout.

[Karoline]

At least they have a law and a system whereas here you can have zero turnout if you choose to and some do.

Can you speak to some of the other drugs that have been cleared for use and their caps or absence of caps? What are the side effects of acetycysteine, dichloroacetate (lactanase), and isoxuprine if any?

[canyonoak]

Horse welfare?


I would rather HUNDRED TIMES OVER believe that if horse people are allowed to have a therapeutic amount of bute in horse's system, then maybe they will not do some of the nearly barbaric common practices that now abound-- all quite legal and all quite upsetting, at least to me and I believe to the horses.

Internal blisters from head to tail and through the legs; standing them in ince water for 12 hours or longer; using shockwave to jangle the nerve endings;Tildren on a continuous basis for just about every part of a horse's body; denerving; etc etc etc etc etc etc.

and yet, all the people who say they are concerned with horse welfare want to climb on only two hobby horses: a training practice used by a handful of dressage riders and just about every show jumper rider; and a therapeutic amount of a substance that at least had been researched for umpteen years and for whom a threshold level can be approximated and evaluated.

As for the other substances--before I say anything, will try to do some research.

The reality is: people who want to cheat will do so, no matter what rules are in place.

None of this therapeutic substance policy is meant to catch them.

The therapy is being extended to equine athletes because WADA extends this therapy to human athletes and WADA is the drug standards, brought on board by FEI because IOC insisted upon it.

Giddy up!!!

[mbm]

some of the nearly barbaric common practices that now abound-- all quite legal and all quite upsetting, at least to me and I believe to the horses.

Internal blisters from head to tail and through the legs; standing them in ince water for 12 hours or longer; using shockwave to jangle the nerve endings;Tildren on a continuous basis for just about every part of a horse's body; denerving; etc etc etc etc etc etc.

and yet, all the people who say they are concerned with horse welfare want to climb on only two hobby horses:

this is total BS. I can pretty much guarantee you that anyone that is against rollkur and bute for competing horses will also be against whatever barbaric thing that is currently being done in the name of $$.

We cant speak up about it is we dont know about it!

so - if you know about these things happening SPEAK UP!!!!!!!! that way others will find out about it and maybe something can change.

however, keeping quiet and then blaming others for not being upset about something they dont even know about is... well...silly....

eta; all of this (FEI rangling) is all so far above the normal persons head - we really don't know why they are doing what they are doing - probably money and power - but beyond that...... follow da money and follow the self interest..... (like in all politics)

[mbm]

Kareen - you have to understand we in the US dont have laws like you have. we can clip whiskers, brand, and stall horses 24/7/365...

animals are property and damn it! we can do whatever we want with OUR property that we paid for!!! including buteing, bouncing on its back, pulling, kicking with spurs, riding way above level competence, showing same, etc etc etc. ( <-- is sarcasm - just in case someone thinks i really think this way)

you are lucky you have the laws you do have. but most of the folks arguing with you are from here so are seeing things from our (US) POV...

[nhwr]

Interesting point, canyonoak.

Forget the the intent to cheat, one of the major differences in vet care between here and Europe is the rate of surgeries there to correct issues that we would address pharmaceutically. This difference in therapeutic approach is primarily the result of the difference in competition regulations.

Assuming, as I do, that horse owners usually have the horse's best interest at heart, which approach puts the horse at greater risk?

[mbm]

btw: it doesn't sound like those horses need bute. it sounds like they need time off. or retirement.

as fr most people doing this for the horses best interest....... uh huh. horses are big money - and if the horse best interest is to be fit to show the next day/week/month etc then sure..... i guess you can say it is in the horses best interest.

[Fixerupper]

in my opinion the substance they should be trying to get on (if any) would be omeprazole

:confused: check the rules
omeprazole is permitted....with no dose thresholds

[fburton]

So you are a hypocrit.
No, my views on equine welfare are quite consistent.

(Btw, it's "hypocrite".)

[ridgeback]

No, my views on equine welfare are quite consistent.

(Btw, it's "hypocrite".)

So then you do think turnout is an issue because if you don't then you are a hypocrite. rolling eyes

[fburton]

So then you do think turnout is an issue because if you don't then you are a hypocrite. rolling eyes
Yes, I do think turnout is an issue. What on earth led you to imagine otherwise?

[ridgeback]

Yes, I do think turnout is an issue. What on earth led you to imagine otherwise?


Sorry I apologize I thought you were being a smart a** about the petition for turnout. Again sorry I jumped to the wrong conclusion. :o :o:o

[siegi b.]

Kareen - you have to understand we in the US dont have laws like you have. we can clip whiskers, brand, and stall horses 24/7/365...

animals are property and damn it! we can do whatever we want with OUR property that we paid for!!! including buteing, bouncing on its back, pulling, kicking with spurs, riding way above level competence, showing same, etc etc etc.

you are lucky you have the laws you do have. but most of the folks arguing with you are from here so are seeing things from our (US) POV...

.... that's why you're so busy protesting against training methods that are done by a handful of people in Europe?? Doesn't make much sense to me.... If things are so bad in your own backyard, seems to me you would have your hands full trying to rectify those before you look overseas.:confused:

Just saying.....

[Kareen]

There you go. I was wondering if anybody would note the difference and why it is in place: There is no such thing as a therapeutic gap existing because you can treat the showing horse and they will be treated. It's just that the treatment has to be on the list of acceptable substances or announced and permitted before the show.
Where is the drama? A horse that is just 'sore' from a long shipping should be fine after a bit of handwalking and a good night's sleep it won't need bute or any other medication to return to soundness so why even administer it at all - show or not. The habitual use of all kinds of medication is a truly worrisome development.

A horse that needs antininflammatory treatment in order to go reasonably sound is inacceptable to show on. So if your vet feels your horse needs it: Life is simple. Treat it and withhold from showing for a few weeks. Where is the drama especially if the advocates of schmoosy drugging-rules claim that none of these horses are really sick or in need of constant painkilling medication.

Those are the ones that are inconsistent and don't make any sense. Not those concerned with welfare issues coming up with legalizing residual levels of banned substances with pain-killing properties.

As for surgical approach vs. medical: Can you elaborate? As far as I can see horses aren't only given more medication per head in the US than in Europe but also undergo surgical procedures more frequently. But this is just my experience so I'd be interested if your opinion is based on your personal observation or if you have any stats to illustrate this view. I'd love to read them.

[canyonoak]

http://doversworld.com/blog/2009/11/25/time-for-some-trouble/comment-page-1/#comment-4904

[siegi b.]

I thought it was interesting when Robert brought up the discussion of the leg yield 20-some years ago and what an uproar it caused...... I guess some things don't change - ever! The people with horses always need some cause to champion - whether it makes sense or not.:confused:

[fatorangehorse]

I hope this means that one the allergy medicine my horse requires whenever the weather is above freezing and vegetation of any kind is blooming to keep the constant flow of mucus from his eyes and nose will one day be accepted. It does not change his energy level up or down. Just allows him to breathe and not cough / sneeze. I have left competing behind because I cannot take him off it. . .. .

[fburton]

Sorry I apologize I thought you were being a smart a** about the petition for turnout. Again sorry I jumped to the wrong conclusion. :o :o:o
No worries. I can be a smart*ss at times, but that wasn't one of them - I am genuinely concerned about lack of turnout, especially for stallions, and would rate it as a much more serious welfare problem than cosmetic whisker trimming (though I don't particularly like that either).

[ridgeback]

No worries. I can be a smart*ss at times, but that wasn't one of them - I am genuinely concerned about lack of turnout, especially for stallions, and would rate it as a much more serious welfare problem than cosmetic whisker trimming (though I don't particularly like that either).

Well we know cosmetic whisker trimming doesn't hurt the horse you might not like it but there is more then enough evidence with the hunter/jumper's, arabs, and quarter horses. Turn out is the most important issue in equine welfare IMO.

[fburton]

Well we know cosmetic whisker trimming doesn't hurt the horse you might not like it but there is more then enough evidence with the hunter/jumper's, arabs, and quarter horses.
Obviously the trimming itself doesn't hurt the horse. However, I'd be very interested to know what evidence there is for the consequences of removing that sensory input not being harmful or unpleasant for the horse. Do you (or anyone else) have a pointer?

Turn out is the most important issue in equine welfare IMO.
It's certainly right up there, I agree.

[ridgeback]

Obviously the trimming itself doesn't hurt the horse. However, I'd be very interested to know what evidence there is for the consequences of removing that sensory input not being harmful or unpleasant for the horse. Do you (or anyone else) have a pointer?


It's certainly right up there, I agree.

Well they don't go around banging themselves up or drown themselves in their water buckets. There whiskers are soft unlike a cats and even a dogs I've had horses fall asleep while i clipped them. I think you can connect horses dieing to lack of turnout much easier you can with clipping so for me clipping isn't even on the radar.

[poltroon]

A one gram dose of Bute 24 hours outside a competition is at best theraputic and certainly not masking of other chemicals or lameness.

One important item mentioned in the COTH coverage of this decision is ..."testing laboratories will be harmonized around the world."

So far this very significant part of the new FEI "doping" regulations has been ignored here. The ELISIA test - which has been employed by USEF for at least a decade now - is extremely sensitive and can determine, in nanograms, the amount of a substance present. With the possibility of a two year suspension looming over anyone whose horse tests "positive" for Bute above the allowable threshhold, or anything other substance aside from hay, oats and GastroGard, I would think "person's responsible" are going to have to be even more cautious as to what, when and how they use pharmaceuticals.

Or even more than that, when we have cases where someone's hay was put in a container that previously was used to haul chocolate. The sensitivity we're talking about is detecting chemicals that have no effect, and then it gets to be much more about who had poor luck. With this level of sensitivity, I wonder if it might not be educational to test EVERY horse in every competition and horses out of competition just so we get a baseline of what is in these horses all the time.