KK Ultras - are they really all that and a bag of chips?

[mbm]

so i am lookng for a new bit for my mare..... and as part of that i am examining all the bits i find.... and once i started looking... it seems to me that kk ultras are designed in such a way that they poke the horse in the tongue and roof of the mouth, instead of lay nicely as the marketing pics show....

the marketing pics show it laying flat down around the jaw - but that isnt how bits hang.... in fact is is almost 45 degrees off from how they present the bits in their marketing pics....

perhaps i am missing something here? i hope so because it is a lot easier to find a kk ultra in the size i need :)

the KK conrad seems a lot more easy on the mouth....

comments?

ps - i have always used ultra;s but now.... not so sure....

[Petstorejunkie]

let me start by saying i do not own a KK anything.
Horses for hundreds of years have been harmonious without the help of a KK bit. I think you are on the right track by inspecting your horse's mouth anatomy. You will probably have the most luck describing that anatomy here on the boards and asking for suggestion.

As to magical devices of the horse world, i recently borrowed a friend's thinline pad to see if it really makes a difference. I gave it two rides before politely returning it. Yes there was less shared concussion, but lateral flexion went out the window and we had two of the worst rides we've had in years.

[dressurpferd01]

I'm a KK fanboi. I simply love their bits. I've used everything from the basic KK Ultra, to the Conrad on my TB, and the newer KK Ultra-softs. The KK ultra on my TB made a night and day difference. In a basic french link he was stiff, and hard in the mouth. In the KK, he was soft, supple, and chewed and foamed lightly. It was incredible to witness. I would spend the money to get at LEAST a KK Ultra, if not one of the newer Ultra-softs.

[atr]

I have two horses that go better in the KK ultra (different horses, so different sizes, different thicknesses) than any of the other 40 million bits I have hanging in my tack room.

The reason I have 40 million bits hanging in my tackroom is that I was resistant to any concept of being seen to "follow the herd" and use the KK ultra.

It would have been so much cheaper and less space-intensive to have just drunk the kool-aid in the first place...

I could, I guess, try a few more just to see if I could find something that worked better, but we'd all be retired and senile by then.

[mbm]

thanks :)

i have been using kk ultras for years. but my mare is making me rethink. so i *looked* at my kk ultra - really for the first time.... and i dont *get* how it is ergonomic... the KK conrads - sure i can totally see how it would lay nicely in the mouth - but the ultra? it is turned 45 degrees so it bites into the tongue.....

or am i on crack?

anyway, i was curious if anyone else had really looked at the kk ultras and seen what i see.....

perhaps it doesn't matter on other horses - but my mare has no space in her mouth, she is sensitive, and she needs a large bit - like 6.25" ....

and yeah, i am looking for a bit - but my other thread has that info.. basically i want a kk conrad 14mm 6.25" - but it doesn't exist :(

suggestions on what i can try on my mare would be super. i am looking at korsteel now... they have a loose ring snaffle with a "bean" with the joints laying how i want them... but i cant find it in the size i need.

:(

[Equa]

I do regularly ponder the same KK question. I have quite a few KKs - most recently was using the one which is sort of hybrid between an eggbutt (ie fixed, not loose ring) and a D ring. Horse went really well in it. He has a small mouth and hates bits that have big links that extend too close to the inside of the lips.

Then I realised I had the bit on upside down - the little arrow thing was on the offside, not the near side. Changed it to being correct, and horse was unhappy! So I switched back to a KK loose ring. I do like the way they are engineered, and that the links (or loops that attach to the centre lozenge) are small and rounded.

[Gaia]

My horse likes the KK Ultra. He has not had any problems with bits, and I have had him since he was seven months old, so we have tried some and outgrown some. The KK he positively likes. The others and a double with one-joint bridoon - he accepts.
- But once - a yuong friend helped me clean tack and the bit got on wrong way - that was easy to detect.
Horses ARE different! And some tell about discomfort very early, which does not have to be bad...

[jn4jenny]

I was told by a tack shop owner--the geeky kind who goes to a lot of trade fairs--that the KK Ultra was mostly a marketing stunt precipitated by the end of Herm Sprenger's patent on the KK non-ultra (the one with the Aurigan metal but a flat non-tilted lozenge). Since the patent was expiring, they had to think of something else to re-capture the market. So they tilted the lozenge, and voila.

You do meet some horses that go better in a KK Ultra than they did in a non-copper-alloy bit, but I still have not met a horse that goes better in a KK Ultra than they did in a regular non-ultra KK lozenge bit. Herm Sprenger claims that the tilted lozenge makes a difference for upper-level dressage, but I don't ride upper level so I can't comment on that.

My horse goes in a Neue Schule bit with the Salox alloy, and I find he goes the same in this as he did in the KK bits. The Neue Schules are a smidge cheaper too.

[JRG]

I have a couple of different ones. They are nice. But...I always look for the shape, style and thinkness I am after in cheaper lines. Not finding what I was looking for, is how I ended up with the ones I have.

I would like to try one of the weymouths they have but I am not going to pay $230.00 for one bit. I won't do it.

[Kelly in NJ]

Well, I have several KK Ultras varying in size from 5" to 6". My horses have a regular KK Ultra loose ring for their snaffle bridles and they also have the KK Ultra bradoon for their double bridles, paired with the HS curb that was the best style for them.

I have found them to be the bits that the horses like the best. Of course, the thickness of the bit does vary based on the horse, but I have found that most horses are very comfortable in this KK Ultra style bit.


PS I also use Thinline and Fleeceworks products. ;)

[Vesper Sparrow]

I've tried a couple of different bits (including KK Ultra) on my two TBs and they both seem to prefer the JP Korsteel Oval Mouth Copper Loose Ring, which is about 1/4 the price.

[mbm]

thanks for the comments!

new question: re: Bradoon ring and loose ring rings (55 mm or 70mm) - does the size of the ring affect how the horse feels the bit and or how the rider uses it?

I personally have never noticed a difference but would love input from others.

[babecakes]

There was another bit thread awhile back and someone recommended this bit . http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&mscssid=QH6H2NAGE25V8HHWSRK6GGJBSBFGAPV2&pf_id=0034680

My young horse didn't like wearing a loose ring (a KK ultra that I've had for quite some time) - it was too busy for him and he was too busy with it! -- so I wanted to try a fixed ring and see if it made a difference, without spending a fortune. I got the revolver bit in the eggbutt style for $31 and voila his mouth is soft and quiet and he loves it!!

sorry 5.75 was the largest size I could find out there goggling the bit.

[c5rose]

The KK ultra on my TB made a night and day difference.

Ditto for my TB. Had her in a french link and a Myler Comfort Snaffle. I participated in a dressage clinic this past spring, and the clinician suggested I get a KK Ultra for my mare. I am so glad I did.

[Invite]

My mare loves her KK Ultra. I have tried her in other bits and she is by far the best when wearing her KK Ultra. She has a big fat one. I'm not sure of the mms, but she is a happy, foamy girl when wearing her KK Ultra. I don't care if it's a gimmick, it works for me!

[LittleblackMorgan]

The KK ultra worked wonders on my hard mouthed pony...a regular kk (old version I guess? standard loose ring, no bean) was night and day for my OTTB. I had used a french, full cheek, D ring and finally the kk, she immediately accepted the bit, softened and salivated.

Worth the money...I would recommend anyone looking to buy one to borrow one first to try it. They are pricey. I borrowed my trainers then got my own.

[mbm]

My horse goes in a Neue Schule bit with the Salox alloy, and I find he goes the same in this as he did in the KK bits. The Neue Schules are a smidge cheaper too.

i wanted to say thank you for this..... i went to the web site and they have loads of info, a downloadable bit measure, and just a super nice "feel" - if they have a bit to fit my mare (and now i will know for sure what size she wears!) i will buy from them.

:)

[smhlin110]

It's a driving shop but they carry riding bits too and they have a generous return policy! They carry Sprenger, I think they can get NS and they carry a variety of bits. I got to try the bit out to see if my horse liked it. He did so I kept it but I had another bit lined up just in case. Check it out!

www.coachmansdelight.com

And yes, the KK Ultra was night and day for the horse in question. I think you have to use what ever works for your particular horse. I have another horse I work who goes best in a stainless eggbutt mullen mouth by Coronet. $20. Go figure.

[Pocket Pony]

I use the KK Ultra on Paddy - I use a bridoon, as he has a very small mouth and fine head. It is what has worked best on him so I stick with it.

[nadasy]

I've had three KK's and they have been fine for some of the horses and really not effective on some. I've started using a Mullen Mouth Egg Butt that I've borrowed, and finally have found a bit that not only fits my horse but has stopped his incessant fiddling about with it, in a 'I'm not a happy camper' way.

Of course, now I can't find one for love nor money. I've searched every place on line for 3 days. I was hoping I could find the AlBaCon one, or the Neue Schule with the Salox alloy. I like the 'no nickel' aspect of the bit. I saw the ss ones, but don't want that. This is the first bit since the KK's that actually do what they are supposed to do.

Of course, any bit in the wrong hands isn't going to do what it's supposed to do, but I do feel that the shape and structure of some horses mouths do require different shapes. (I've tried all the jointed snaffles, and ones with pillows, and they don't work, where the mullen mouth he is very happy and relaxed with.)

[Bronte]

thanks :)

i have been using kk ultras for years. but my mare is making me rethink. so i *looked* at my kk ultra - really for the first time.... and i dont *get* how it is ergonomic... the KK conrads - sure i can totally see how it would lay nicely in the mouth - but the ultra? it is turned 45 degrees so it bites into the tongue.....

:(

mbm, not being funny, but are you sure you have it the right way around. There are little arrows on the Ultra that show the way it should be oriented.

Now, that said, I have had horses that loved the Ultra and some that hated. Including my current horse. He likes the Stubben Easy bit. So go figure. I think it is a very individual thing. Good luck with finding a bit.:)

[propspony]

Well... it isn't "aurigan silver" but this is the only bit that my mare will go in. (She has the same mouth issues as the first horse mentioned) She loves the full cheek version of this. The link is to the 5.5" version, but if you call toklat, they have great customer service and I'm sure they can help you find the size you would need.

http://www.toklat.com/dyn_prod.php?p=88-18337&k=87293

Not to mention that this bit is 35.00 and not 235.00 and I don't see THAT much different structurally to warrant the 200.00 price difference.

[mbm]

mbm, not being funny, but are you sure you have it the right way around. There are little arrows on the Ultra that show the way it should be oriented.



whats funny is that if i *do* flip it so the arrow is on the right - it makes a heck of a lot more sense.....

have you guys really looked at these bits? and thought about how they lay in the mouth?

i am now on a hunt for xrays of mouth +bit so i can see how a bit sits... but honestly - kk ultras looks positively backwards. when you have the arrow on the left.

[jn4jenny]

mbm, not being funny, but are you sure you have it the right way around. There are little arrows on the Ultra that show the way it should be oriented.

Now, that said, I have had horses that loved the Ultra and some that hated. Including my current horse. He likes the Stubben Easy bit. So go figure. I think it is a very individual thing. Good luck with finding a bit.:)

Agreed, it's all a question of what PART of the KK Ultra the horse really likes. For some horses, it's the Aurigan metal. For some, it's the lozenge. For some, it's the curvature of the mouthpiece. And allegedly, according to Herm Sprenger, for some it's the fact that the lozenge is tilted. And if you can isolate which part of the bit the horse is responding to, you might be able to locate a cheaper bit that gets the same response.

For my horse, I am 95% sure he likes the lozenge (rather than a traditional french link) and the ergonomic curvature of the bit. He also likes the baucher cheek, but he could have saved me $50 or more if he'd been satisfied with a full cheek. :lol:

[Shiaway]

I don't know how you're looking at it but they make sense to me when I see how it would go in the horse's mouth. Someone should get a picture.

Anyhow, I don't use one. I tried a kk ultra out with my horse. I felt it was too severe in my horse's mouth. Too much pressure on the tongue. So I went back to the old stand by, a simply snaffle. He goes best in this, and feels like he is more comfortable with it.

And yes I know all about the so call "nutcracker" action but when do you ever pull back on both reins in the snaffle? You're not supposed to hence it being jointed and all. So it's never really a problem for me.

The exact one I have is in fact a kk bradoon (the snaffle rings are way too big for my horse's head--they make the bridle hard to fit). It's a loose ring and the thickness is medium--right between a thin bradoon and a regular snaffle.

It works best for my horse. But I know plenty of other people who have horses that feel very comfortable in the kk ultra. Maybe buy the bit and put it in your horses mouth and then see how it sits because it does make sense. Most places have some kind of return policy if you don't like it.

[mbm]

fwiw, kk ultra is the bit i have used for years. i am just now getting around to *looking* at it :)

[luise]

I've been using one in a horse I ride. He's my trainer's old 2* horse, now used for lessons. For the lesson kids he normally goes in a eggbutt snaffle since it's pretty forgiving. I thought his mouth felt hard in that. I've been riding him in my KK loose ring french link, and I definitely notice a difference. He's as light as a feather!

[mbm]

ok, lookie what i found
http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/usdf-connection/USDF_Dec05.pdf

xray of kk ultra in the mouth. now to me it looks like the round bits that hold the "bean" may poke the tongue based on how it sits.....

am i seeing this correctly?


wish there were more xrays out there.

[Dressage Art]

I love Lisa Wilcox snaffle bit and its worth every penny for my sensitive in mouth mare. My curb is also from the aurigan metal and its sweet on taste and promotes salivation. I would highly recomend aurigan bits. They do make a difference fro horses who are uncomfortable with bits in their mouths.

[Shiaway]

I think the only jointed bit that's not going to do that would be like the myler one shown or something similar. Otherwise get a mullen mouth and than you don't have to worry about it.

[Pony Fixer]

I just got the new KK "Dynamic" ultra. Because I needed to spend MORE money on a KK bit. :lol:

It has the Ultra "bean", and the other mouth parts are "bent" more, supposedly to even out the contact to the corners of the mouth.

Whatever, it's pretty and my horse likes it. My last horse went in a KK knock off because he did best in an all copper mouthpiece.

[Om]

mbm, I see what you mean. So I had to get my Ultra bit, attached to bridle, and check it out on my hand. It appears that it depends on how much contact from the reins, how tight the bridle is adjusted, and probably whether horsie is on the vertical, how the "bean" lays on the tongue. With a light "contact" the bean laid flat on my hand, so tomorrow I am going to see if I can feel it in my horse's mouth. :)
FWIW, I tried the KK Conrad, and my horse loved it for 3 rides, then not so much, so I went back to the Ultra, which he seems to prefer. He has a low palate, and is quite sensitive, I've tried several thicknesses, and found he prefers the medium.

Thanks for making us think about our horse's comfort.

[Beasmom]

My gelding has a very, VERY small mouth, narrow jaw, little room between palate and tongue. I thought he'd like a French Link with the flat dog bone shaped center link -- flatter & takes up less room in the mouth, right?

Wrong.

He had been ridden in a Lozenge style French Link, and that, by Golly, was the bit he wanted.

I anticipate all kinds of fun when we move up to a full bridle. Yikes.

[Shiaway]

I'm just curious now what you all go by when you say your horse "loves" vs. "hates" a bit?

I can tell you what I feel in my horse. When I rode in the KK ultra I felt him back off from the contact too much, like dropping the contact. In his current bit, the plain snaffle (but slightly thinner) he takes the contact without concern.

[mbm]

yeah, shiaway - i hear you. i am trying to find a bit that my mare will push into instead of back off of.

[Beasmom]

Shiaway, yep, they can back off the bit, over-fuss with it, throw a tongue over it, yank against it, lots of ways they show displeasure or discomfort.

Probably much like the way we feel when we find just the right pair of shoes, the comfiest PJ's, and so on. Some are close, some are terrible, others are juuuuust riiiiiight!

[Om]

And then they change! :lol:

[whbar158]

I do love the KK ultra bit (I have the D version which is a little thinner) and my horse goes great in it. He is very strong though, but he doesn't lean or set against it. Most horses I have ridden go well in it. Yes it does put pressure on the tongue, that is what I like about it. It puts pressure on the tongue with the smooth bean, much like how a real dr bristol works but instead of the edge of the plate biting into the tongue its just the smooth bean. So for some horses they will listen to it well. Now I will say I do hunters (but do lots of good flat work with them) so the contact I ride in may not be as tight as some dressage riders. I find it works well with horses that want to lock their jaw, but that doesn't make it the magic bit for everyone and every horse. It works for the way I ride and the horses I ride.

[flshgordon]

The exact one I have is in fact a kk bradoon (the snaffle rings are way too big for my horse's head--they make the bridle hard to fit). It's a loose ring and the thickness is medium--right between a thin bradoon and a regular snaffle.



Shiaway, I have been wondering if I could use a KK ultra bradoon instead of the regular KK ultra for my snaffle bit. I too think the rings are just gigantic for my girl's head. I have looked & looked and cannot find anything about it--is this legal to show in (bradoon used as a snaffle?)

[Beasmom]

Oh, yeah, it's OK!

[Dressage Art]

I'm just curious now what you all go by when you say your horse "loves" vs. "hates" a bit?I tried plain steel bit with my mare and she starts shaking her head like she is trying to get a fly off, even before I get on her. After I pick a contact it gets better, but she doesnt chew or salivate in that bit. With any yellow metal bits she starts playing with the bit as soon as she has it in her mouth and when riding she also salivates = and thats a good thing.

[ctab]

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=c41eb939-49a3-4a00-ab22-837baf468442

I spent over $90 on my KK Ultra. I tried the KK to see if it would improve connection and acceptance. Nope. My horse, OTTB, hated it. I rode him for years in a fat hollow mouth, stainless steel, loose ring, on trails, eventing, jumping and dressage. Happy as clam. But once my latest trainer got a look he recommended a thinner bit as my horse has a smaller mouth. So I bought the one above. Now we have CONTACT! We have acceptance. We have awesome rate-ability to the fences! We achieve thoroughness! Well Raul did help alot with all that too! But another horse I tired it on really grooved on it too.
So for me , no they are not all that.

[Om]

Today I checked how the lozenge sits in my horse's mouth, and it lays perfectly flat on the tongue, with or without contact, but interestingly, there was NO contact at all with the bars of his mouth. None, even with rein pressure.
I wonder what that means.

[Beasmom]

Your horse had a fat tongue?

[Shiaway]

Yes it's legal to use a bradoon vs. a snaffle. Really the only difference is ring size. You could probably find a bradoon with the same thickness as a snaffle. Mine is just a pinch thinner. I use it both as my snaffle as well as my bradoon for the double. It's getting annoying to switch it back and forth though... Someday I'll get rich and be able to buy another. Although I'm a bit worried because it was very hard to find the right size in this particular bit. I don't know how the person at Dover found it really and I wonder if it's the only one. LOL