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View Full Version : Unraced for 9 years, bred mare entered tomorrow?



WinterTriangle
Nov. 18, 2009, 12:32 AM
Mare is 12 years old. Hasn't raced in 9 years. Has been bred.

Grand Forks, Churchill race 5. Wednesday.

Trainer is also the owner. Was a pretty decent horse 9-12 years ago.

I guess I'm asking what's the motivation?

Alagirl
Nov. 18, 2009, 01:35 AM
get her claimed before the winter?
:confused::confused::confused:

Jessi P
Nov. 18, 2009, 07:42 AM
There is a guy in the next barn over from me that put his broodmare back into race training. He didnt want to breed her again next year after she had problems getting in foal this year. Instead of her just standing around he put her in training, and to be honest she looks fabulous. He said she always ran best "fresh" - meaning after some time off.

IIRC the 12 yo mare in KY shows some nice breezes, 2 from the gate, so they have done their homework in that regard. If she hadn't (had the required gate breezes) they would have refused the entry. I think the rule (at least here - its usually the same for all/most tracks) says a horse can race up to age 13 - after that it has to have won a race the year before to be able to start. So, a 13 yo can run the following year if it wins a race at age 13. And if it wins at 14, it can run at 15.

Professional event horses compete into their teens - in fact aren't they really just considered to be hitting their stride, so to speak, once they are 10 or 11? Any idea why the idea of racing a teenage horse is so shocking compared to the thought of an Olympic mount being in it's teens? I agree that a return to the races after 9 years is quite bewildering - heck most horses dont race at 9 let alone have 9 years off. But this mare was quite talented as a youngster and certainly is in no danger of being claimed (unless it was by a group looking to permanently retire her because of the 9 year shock factor).

I might not agree with what the owner/trainer is doing but I will certainly defend their right to do what they want to with their horse as long as they follow protocol and aren't injuring or harming the horse. That said, sending your kid to school on the bus can prove disastrous in the incidence of a bus accident (God forbid - knock knock knocking), but that doesn't mean I wont send mine to school.

Mara
Nov. 18, 2009, 09:25 AM
It would be quite different if she'd been in steady training/racing over the past nine years. She may have cleaner limbs and less wear-and-tear than most of the rest of the (much younger) field.

SleepyFox
Nov. 18, 2009, 10:14 AM
What Jessi said.

They probably put her back in training because she has some talent and is sound and they felt it was a better use of her than being a broodmare. Frequently, people on the Internet (and I'm not directing this at the OP - who asked a legitimate question) are aghasted at older horses racing and feel that they need to be "saved" and "surely s/he has earned his/her retirement!" Yet, they are also aghasted at people breeding their retirees or sending them to the stockyards or otherwise not giving them an approved retirement. I've never understood that double standard.

I hope she runs well. If she's had good works, she's probably enjoying herself. And, she's definitely in no danger of being claimed. (Is she in for a tag and if so, what?)

WinterTriangle
Nov. 18, 2009, 12:26 PM
Actually, I brought it up as I read about it and there are those who are aghast, but I think they do not own horses. :)

If the trainer is ethical, and assuming the horse is in condition, she is likely safer now than she was at 2.

I find it strange that we worry about a 12 year old's foundation, but not 2 year olds, since 12 is not at all old for a horse.

Breeding usually takes precedence over racing, so few people are used to seeing 12 year olds out on the track, I guess.


I can't wait to see how she does.

I'm one of those who believe horses are too young to race, with weight on their backs, at 2. I'd rather see them wait until 3 when they have more foundation, but that is another topic.

Meanwhile, one of my friends is into long distance racing, and there are horses in their 20's doing long distance racing, 100 miles, at age 20. And they are fine. :)

tbracer65
Nov. 18, 2009, 12:34 PM
Sleepy...she's in for $5,000. 6 & 1/2 furlongs. Equibase horse search shows her past p's. She was claimed last start at Del Mar (raced on the West Coast...this is her first East Coast start) for $32,000 in August of 2000. Then somewhere along the line she ended up in the hands of her current owner/trainer (as she's not who claimed her....).

Current Workout:

The Thoroughbred Center 11/12/09 Dirt 5F 1:06.00 Breezing from the gate Rank 4/4

The Thoroughbred Center 11/07/09 Dirt 4F 50.00 Breezing from the gate Rank 6/23

The Thoroughbred Center 11/03/09 Dirt 5F 1:04.00 Breezing Rank 6/14


Racing Summary:
Starts Firsts Seconds Thirds Earnings
11 3 0 2 $ 80,900

Alagirl
Nov. 18, 2009, 01:16 PM
But you have to admit it is unusual to bring a horse THAT old back into racing.

I don't like 2 yo racing, but I have seen were it is a necessary evil if you want to make the 3 yo classical circuit, especially in the US where the Triple crown is early on the card.

I love the older horses, I saw a mare for sale on LOPEtx, older, with a long career, that's the stuff I as amateur like, longevity!

Laurierace
Nov. 18, 2009, 01:39 PM
I think it is going to prove to be a waste of time financially but as long as she is sound and well cared for I don't have a problem with it. I prefer it to making more babies they can't afford.

Bacchus
Nov. 18, 2009, 01:49 PM
From what I read (thoroughbredtimes.com), the "trainer" is the owner, who doesn't seem to know much about racing. This is her first racehorse. She bought it as a riding horse, then after a few gallops for fun, thought she'd race the horse because the horse wanted to run. LOL. So does my gelding. Loves it, actually, but he was no racehorse when he was young, and he'd never make a comeback.

What really bothers me about this owner/"trainer" is her admitting that she is cash-strapped but wants more horses. Hello? Do you know what it costs to race a horse, just one? Why did you buy a horse in the first place if you don't have money and your option/idea for how to get money for more horses is to bet big on this one?

This woman is tyring to live a fairytale dream -- I just hope the horse doesn't end up in a nightmare.

tbracer65
Nov. 18, 2009, 02:20 PM
From what I read (thoroughbredtimes.com), the "trainer" is the owner, who doesn't seem to know much about racing. This is her first racehorse. She bought it as a riding horse, then after a few gallops for fun, thought she'd race the horse because the horse wanted to run. LOL. So does my gelding. Loves it, actually, but he was no racehorse when he was young, and he'd never make a comeback.

What really bothers me about this owner/"trainer" is her admitting that she is cash-strapped but wants more horses. Hello? Do you know what it costs to race a horse, just one? Why did you buy a horse in the first place if you don't have money and your option/idea for how to get money for more horses is to bet big on this one?

This woman is tyring to live a fairytale dream -- I just hope the horse doesn't end up in a nightmare.

KY doesn't have any requirements to get a trainers license? I thought most tracks required you to be licensed as at least a groom for so many years before you were even allowed to take the test??

Bacchus
Nov. 18, 2009, 02:25 PM
She is listed as the trainer. She has no previous record as a trainer -- this is her first start. I assume she had to pass a trainer's test, but from some of the yahoos I've seen training, it can't be that hard:(

Glimmerglass
Nov. 18, 2009, 02:27 PM
Just scratched from the race

Before that interestingly her odds had dropped from 50-1 for the ML and down to 17-1 and was far from the longest shot in the race ....

ETA: just an hour ago there had been a jockey change from Justin Bishop to Bonnie Castaneda

Bacchus
Nov. 18, 2009, 02:45 PM
Stewards' scratch, not vet's.

tbracer65
Nov. 18, 2009, 03:29 PM
She is listed as the trainer. She has no previous record as a trainer -- this is her first start. I assume she had to pass a trainer's test, but from some of the yahoos I've seen training, it can't be that hard:(

I agree...the test is really easy & the one I took years ago had very little to actually pertain to the 'race' horse. Just most tracks I've been at wouldn't allow you to take the test unless you were licensed at a race track for say 3 yrs as either a groom, owner, etc....

Bacchus
Nov. 18, 2009, 03:43 PM
I wish it was much more difficult to become a trainer. The thought that I could pass the test is frightening, even though I've been around horses for 37 years, have a degree in Animal Science / Pre Vet, worked at a vet clinic, broke yearlings and galloped horses on the track. I'm still not qualified to train a racehorse!!!

moonriverfarm
Nov. 18, 2009, 03:54 PM
So why was she scratched?

Bacchus
Nov. 18, 2009, 03:56 PM
Probably an abundance of phone calls to the Stewards before the race;)

I'm really not sure, though.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 18, 2009, 04:50 PM
So why was she scratched?

A sad mess is all I can say and the Kentucky authorities didn't want to be part of it. There is more to it including what appears to be a verbal DNR restriction as part of her transfer ....

DRF - Stewards' scratch prevents 12-year-old's return (http://www.drf.com/news/article/109010.html)


A potentially unsavory situation turned into a tearful one Wednesday when a 12-year-old mare who had not raced in more than nine years was scratched in the paddock prior to the fifth race at Churchill Downs.

Grand Forks, whose last race had come Aug. 7, 2000, at Del Mar, was 15-1 with 11 minutes to post for the $5,000 claiming race when chief steward John Veitch conferred for several minutes with owner-trainer Kathleen Costello, ultimately informing her that the mare had to be scratched. Costello, 27, broke into tears, denied of her chance to make her debut as a trainer.

"I can't afford to bring her down here and not run her," Costello, based in Lexington, said between sobs.

Rick Trontz, a central Kentucky breeder who had claimed the horse for $32,000 from the Del Mar race but had no luck with her as a producer, said Tuesday he gave the mare to Costello, a former employee, but only with the stipulation that Grand Forks be used strictly as a pleasure horse.

John Odom, who was assisting Costello in the care of the horse Wednesday, said: "The bill of sale only says the mare cannot be bred. It doesn't say anything about not racing her. Nothing was ever said about that." When he learned the mare would not be permitted to run, Odom screamed at Veitch: "Why is she scratched?!"

Costello, who got her trainer's license several months ago, had put Grand Forks through three recorded workouts this month at the Thoroughbred Training Center in Lexington, but Veitch told Costello the mare would have to work in front of a state veterinarian before being permitted to race.

Said Odom: "We met all the requirements posted," including the standard pre-race physical examination by the state veterinarian. "They should have told us we were scratched before we went through all this."

Veitch released a statement that read in part: "We decided to err on the side of caution and to protect the animal and the betting public . . . It was a tough call." He conceded that no specific rules were broken.

Veitch said later: "We've told Ms. Costello that we would be willing to work with her but that we need more information about the health and well-being of the horse."

He said the delay in scratching the horse was because he and the other stewards "had not been fully appraised of the situation" and that other commitments delayed their informing Costello of the scratch.

Costello had worked for about six months with broodmares when employed by Trontz at his Hopewell Farm in Midway, Ky., before being laid off in June.

Trontz said Tuesday that he was dismayed that Costello would attempt to race Grand Forks and that he feared for the well-being of the horse, considering her advanced age and the length of time since she had raced.

Trontz said Grand Forks, by Quiet American, had failed to get in foal almost every year, although "she did have a baby that I believe died at a very early age after some sort of accident." After so many years of futility, Grand Forks became a riding horse, and when Costello was laid off, according to Trontz, she asked to take the horse with her, and he agreed.

Trontz said Costello later contacted him to get the Jockey Club registry papers for the mare, assuring him it was for the purposes of entering her in a dressage event, so he gave her the papers.

"This is all very disturbing to me," Trontz said.

Grand Forks was scheduled to be ridden Wednesday by Bonnie Castaneda. A crowd of curiosity seekers had gathered around the paddock to take a look at the horse when the unusual scene unfolded.

Veitch said he would "look into reimbursing some expenses" incurred by Costello and Castaneda.

jengersnap
Nov. 18, 2009, 05:08 PM
Trontz said Costello later contacted him to get the Jockey Club registry papers for the mare, assuring him it was for the purposes of entering her in a dressage event, so he gave her the papers.

Way to go, owner/trainer-wannabe-person. Set another very public precident on why it's so hard to get papers on some horses coming off the track :rolleyes: :mad:

Back to the "she loved to run" stuff...what part of the dressage test is a full gallop? I must have missed that part. And since when would you actually need the papers to enter a dressage event?? Smoke and mirrors.

SleepyFox
Nov. 18, 2009, 05:42 PM
You know, I don't have an issue with an older, retired horse being put back in training. But, if Costello really obtained the papers under false pretenses, I really question her judgement. There are plenty of other free horses out there that the owners would welcome her racing. :confused:

KentuckyTBs
Nov. 18, 2009, 05:42 PM
I agree, THIS is why it's so hard to get papers on them when they come off the track... then those who are honest and really just want the papers simply to have them or to breed for sport horses or things of the sort end up not being able to get papers because of situations like these. Shame... *sigh*

Glimmerglass
Nov. 18, 2009, 05:47 PM
And your gal isn't giving up. She seemingly plans to be back with Grand Forks:

TB Times 11-18-09 "Grand Forks to remain in training after scratch" (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2009/November/18/Grand-Forks-to-remain-in-training-after-scratch.aspx)

Per this article the prior owner is backing off any claim of the horse being in violation of the transfer agreement by racing now. He didn't preclude racing as he never fathomed it.


“[Costello] was working for me, and we let her go, and she wanted to keep [Grand Forks], and I said that was fine because we couldn’t get her into foal,” Trontz said. “She came back to the office because she wanted the papers. I had made her sign something saying she wouldn’t breed her, but I never thought she’d tried to race her. I don’t think [Grand Forks] should be racing. I think it’s kind of cruel to do it, but that’s up to [Costello]. It’s definitely her horse.”

Costello said that a phone call from Michael Blowen of Old Friends, a Thoroughbred retirement farm in Georgetown, Kentucky, was the only one she received regarding retiring the horse. She turned him down, saying that Grand Forks is not only her racehorse but also her pet, and the mare will always have a home with her.

The woman isn't earning many friends with whole situation and that will only build I suspect before the next race. I think she seems to live in some fantasy world that she's sitting on dynamite and the mare will earn enough to cover not just costs but make a profit.

WinterTriangle
Nov. 18, 2009, 08:25 PM
I came back to report what happened. :) It is sort of an interesting story. Ms. Costello sounds like she is inexperienced, perhaps has a dream, but no practical way of achieving it? She has a horse that gallops----and begins to dream of building a racing stable.

I do hope they reimburse her for some of the fees, she was sobbing, apparently, in the paddock. As far as I can see she didn't break any rules? Hence, I support the reimbursement.



http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/ra...-Churchill.aspx

Excerpt:

Grand Forks, a 12-year-old stakes-winning Quiet American mare, will make her first start in more than nine years on Wednesday at Churchill Downs in a $5,000 claiming race.

Kathleen Costello said she bought the mare privately from Rick Trontz of Hopewell Farm this spring after Grand Forks went five consecutive years without producing a foal. She delivered a Skip Away filly in 2004, but the foal died a month later.

“[Hopewell] basically gave up on her because she couldn’t carry a foal to term,” Costello said. “They were looking to give her away this spring, and I got the bug to start riding again, so I bought her.

“She loved to gallop and had so much spirit, so I decided to give her a shot and took her to the track.”

Then:

http://drf.com/news/article/109010.html

Churchill Downs | Posted 11/18/2009, 4:31 pm
Stewards' scratch prevents 12-year-old's return
By Marty McGee
LOUISVILLE, Ky. - A potentially unsavory situation turned into a tearful one Wednesday when a 12-year-old mare who had not raced in more than nine years was scratched in the paddock prior to the fifth race at Churchill Downs.

Grand Forks, whose last race had come Aug. 7, 2000, at Del Mar, was 15-1 with 11 minutes to post for the $5,000 claiming race when chief steward John Veitch conferred for several minutes with owner-trainer Kathleen Costello, ultimately informing her that the mare had to be scratched. Costello, 27, broke into tears, denied of her chance to make her debut as a trainer.

"I can't afford to bring her down here and not run her," Costello, based in Lexington, said between sobs.

Rick Trontz, a central Kentucky breeder who had claimed the horse for $32,000 from the Del Mar race but had no luck with her as a producer, said Tuesday he gave the mare to Costello, a former employee, but only with the stipulation that Grand Forks be used strictly as a pleasure horse.

John Odom, who was assisting Costello in the care of the horse Wednesday, said: "The bill of sale only says the mare cannot be bred. It doesn't say anything about not racing her. Nothing was ever said about that." When he learned the mare would not be permitted to run, Odom screamed at Veitch: "Why is she scratched?!"

Costello, who got her trainer's license several months ago, had put Grand Forks through three recorded workouts this month at the Thoroughbred Training Center in Lexington, but Veitch told Costello the mare would have to work in front of a state veterinarian before being permitted to race.

Said Odom: "We met all the requirements posted," including the standard pre-race physical examination by the state veterinarian. "They should have told us we were scratched before we went through all this."

Veitch released a statement that read in part: "We decided to err on the side of caution and to protect the animal and the betting public . . . It was a tough call." He conceded that no specific rules were broken.

Veitch said later: "We've told Ms. Costello that we would be willing to work with her but that we need more information about the health and well-being of the horse."

He said the delay in scratching the horse was because he and the other stewards "had not been fully appraised of the situation" and that other commitments delayed their informing Costello of the scratch.

Costello had worked for about six months with broodmares when employed by Trontz at his Hopewell Farm in Midway, Ky., before being laid off in June.

Trontz said Tuesday that he was dismayed that Costello would attempt to race Grand Forks and that he feared for the well-being of the horse, considering her advanced age and the length of time since she had raced.

Trontz said Grand Forks, by Quiet American, had failed to get in foal almost every year, although "she did have a baby that I believe died at a very early age after some sort of accident." After so many years of futility, Grand Forks became a riding horse, and when Costello was laid off, according to Trontz, she asked to take the horse with her, and he agreed.

Trontz said Costello later contacted him to get the Jockey Club registry papers for the mare, assuring him it was for the purposes of entering her in a dressage event, so he gave her the papers.

"This is all very disturbing to me," Trontz said.

Grand Forks was scheduled to be ridden Wednesday by Bonnie Castaneda. A crowd of curiosity seekers had gathered around the paddock to take a look at the horse when the unusual scene unfolded.

Veitch said he would "look into reimbursing some expenses" incurred by Costello and Castaneda.

I will say that, ( based on some of the horror stories I read here and elsewhere ;)), I doubt the mare was in *worse* condition than a lot of the horses out on tracks each and every day.

The oddness of the entry is what triggered alarms. And the confusion between what she understood and what Trontz understood as regards the use of this mare?

WinterTriangle
Nov. 18, 2009, 08:37 PM
Hopefully, she'll not be back at the track any time soon. My take on her is naive more than suspicious.

Maybe she should apprentice under a trainer and learn the game first, then someday, when she knows what is involved, make a start.

Kinda a sad story, all around.

One good thing, and it's just my intuition....She does sound like she loves her horse...to the point where she has given into fantasies that the horse has more than is really there. Hopefully, she'll get a job and just enjoy her horse as a riding companion.

GreenMachine
Nov. 18, 2009, 09:01 PM
Ugh.

Someone needs to let her know that "Dreamer" was fiction.

midnightride
Nov. 18, 2009, 09:16 PM
haha, actually gave a mare away and like a dumb butt her papers also- BUT not transfered.... girl was going to event the mare.... WELL the mare was sold and ended up at the track, spoke to owner/trainer and they paid a pretty penny for her.... didnt raise a stink but the poor guy soon figured out why i gave the mare away.....

DickHertz
Nov. 18, 2009, 10:20 PM
Bringing a horse back after that long of a layoff aside, it's complete BS that Veitch and his chronies took until they were in the paddock to scratch. That was just as low-class as running a 12 year old off a 9 year layoff. Shame on Veitch for using such poor judgment. I've long believed that stewards are often the dumbest people alive on planet earth and Veitch falls into the category. For god's sake, scratch the horse at 8am or better yet, the previous day.

Mara
Nov. 18, 2009, 10:46 PM
I have to ask: Trontz, who seems to have a decent reputation, gave a horse to someone he had just laid off and therefore presumably had no steady source of income?
I'm assuming a lot (i.e., that she doesn't have an employed husband or a second job or a trust fund), and I know the perils of that. But it certainly doesn't SOUND as if she's flush with excess cash.

WinterTriangle
Nov. 18, 2009, 10:57 PM
I have to ask: Trontz, who seems to have a decent reputation, gave a horse to someone he had just laid off and therefore presumably had no steady source of income?
I'm assuming a lot (i.e., that she doesn't have an employed husband or a second job or a trust fund), and I know the perils of that. But it certainly doesn't SOUND as if she's flush with excess cash.

Maybe Trontz saw his opportunity to get rid of the mare, who couldn't breed, and was a pasture statue?.

Nobody smelling like roses to me in this one. Not the trainer, not the stewards, not the owner/breeder.

tbracer65
Nov. 18, 2009, 11:17 PM
Bringing a horse back after that long of a layoff aside, it's complete BS that Veitch and his chronies took until they were in the paddock to scratch. That was just as low-class as running a 12 year old off a 9 year layoff. Shame on Veitch for using such poor judgment. I've long believed that stewards are often the dumbest people alive on planet earth and Veitch falls into the category. For god's sake, scratch the horse at 8am or better yet, the previous day.

100% agreed - it amazes me daily on how some (well...should say 99%) of the stewards handle their rulings........why wait till they're about to throw the rider up??

Glimmerglass
Nov. 18, 2009, 11:29 PM
Maybe Trontz saw his opportunity to get rid of the mare, who couldn't breed, and was a pasture statue?.

Nobody smelling like roses to me in this one. Not the trainer, not the stewards, not the owner/breeder.

Eh, I have no issue with the stewards ruling IMHO.

Lexington Herald-Leader "Attempt to race mare after nine-year layoff sparks dispute" (http://www.kentucky.com/232/story/1025578.html)

Regarding the last owner, Rick Trontz of Midway, KY, who was the long-time breeder with the mare:


"We were trying to find (Grand Forks) a nice home and we had let (Costello) ride her at the farm," Trontz said Wednesday. "When she left and wanted to take her, she came back and asked for the (foal) papers saying she needed them for show or dressage.

"I guess I have to be much more careful and spell everything out next time because I never thought in a million years she would try and use her as a racehorse. We just took her at her word and she wasn't honest. She's not doing the right thing."

Regarding Ms. Kathleen Costello and her deception:


Costello said she indeed intended to use Grand Forks as a riding horse, but the mare's enthusiasm convinced Costello to give her racing career another shot.

"She had so much spunk, and every time I rode her she got higher and higher," said the 27-year-old Costello, who has not previously started a horse in a race. "She has been really happy and she loves to run. Honestly, I did it for her."

Costello said she is aware she could face some backlash for trying to run a horse off a nine-year layoff but maintains that Grand Forks will eventually return to the track.

"You know, (the backlash) might happen the first time I run her, but when she wins that race and comes back fine, I think people will accept it," she said.

So try and try again is the plan?

I've ridden ex race track TBs at a full out gallop and thought "wow, just like back at the track" but without any genuine thought that the horse could sustain the level of competitiveness that is required for a TB race!

What is this woman smoking! Had the horse won this race - which would've been somewhat dubious - the winner would've taken in $7,800 from which then then there is the pay out the jockey, plus the entry fees, hauling fees, stall fees, feed, farrier, and training track fees. If she was net positive with the money (assuming and that's a massive assumption that the miracle would happen) then that would've been great for a small tidy sum.

Everyone collectively mocked the revisiting of the episode of Ricks Natural Star from the Breeders' Cup with an owner/trainer who was in need of help. I'm not seeing this as that much different. While this horse may have a chance at hitting the board there is also an equally decent chance of something going terribly wrong.

As for John Veitch (trainer of Alydar, et al, with Calumet Stables, and now chief steward for the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission) his response:


"We felt it was in the best interest of both the betting public and the horse that we get more information before she is allowed to run again"

"Currently, there are no rules in Kentucky that would prevent a horse of any age from racing. However, we had a combination of factors that concerned us: 1) the owner and trainer had a trainer's license for only four months and had never started a horse before and 2) Grand Forks had not started in nine years.

It was a tough call, but we made our decision with the betting public and the horse in mind."

I have no objection whatsoever in that ruling and to suggest he or the stewards look foolish is silly. Ok, so it was 10 minutes before the start but is that the biggest knock you can place on the ruling? Really? I think if anything the officials kept looking for something in the rules to DQ them couldn't find it, likely consulted CD's or the Racing Comission's legal group for a potential lawsuit, still didn't have the support but ultimately make the decision to force a scratch and took the risk for the potential claims against them by Ms. Costello.

Alagirl
Nov. 19, 2009, 12:23 AM
what a mess. :no:

mypaintwattie
Nov. 19, 2009, 01:43 AM
I know of an owner/trainer here in Cali who took and passed the trainers test, even though they had only learned how to tack up and wrap legs the week prior- on my 18 year old dead broke horse. How the person passed the test I'll never know. Another one of those horses are pretty, lets buy a race horse, and now I want to be a trainer types.

Kyzteke
Nov. 19, 2009, 06:38 AM
I know of an owner/trainer here in Cali who took and passed the trainers test, even though they had only learned how to tack up and wrap legs the week prior- on my 18 year old dead broke horse. How the person passed the test I'll never know. Another one of those horses are pretty, lets buy a race horse, and now I want to be a trainer types.

I know it's different for every state, but back a million years ago when I was on the track there were states where an owner/trainer didn't have to pass any license test as long as they were ONLY training their own horses. Maybe KY is the same?

As for racing the horse after 9 years off -- I think if her conditioning was done properly, it's better than racing 2 yr olds.

It's just odd the way people in different sports look at things. Race folk think this mare is "too old", whereas I just got off a thread on the Endurance Forum where a woman was telling about her WARMBLOOD gelding who started his endurance career at age 20! For the next four years he did 650 AERC competition miles, including finishing the Tevis (granted he was overtime, but he still FINISHED a ride that only has a 50% completion rate). And keep in mind that 650 miles didn't include training miles.

Horse never had a soundness problem.

And I know plenty of timber/cross country TBs who were winning races like the Maryland Gold Cup (4 miles over timber) at 14-17 years old.

Granted, I realize they aren't the same sport, and it really doesn't sound like this gal honestly knows what she's doing, but as far as the basic concept of running a 12 year old after 9 years off? Nothing wrong with that....

Bacchus
Nov. 19, 2009, 09:40 AM
Running a 12-year-old after 9 years off doesn't bother me so much. What bothered me in the beginning is that Costello has no money (self-proclaimed strapped for cash), has no training experience, and thinks this horse should race because she wants to run. What a load!

How much money did she spend having this horse checked by a vet? Bone scans? Any tests? I highly doubt it. How does she know if the horse is fit enough to actually race?

That all still bothers me, but now I'm pissed that she lied to the owners to boot.

I have no problem with the owners giving her the horse. They thought she was going to a good pleasure/showing home, and that's much better than sitting in a pasture. It says Costello left -- I highly doubt Hopewell fired her and then gave her a horse. If they did, shame on them.

Either way, she never should have lied, which is what she did saying she needed papers for a dressage show. Hopewell shouldn't have to know whether that is true or not -- they should be able to believe her.

She does not deserve to even own a horse, let alone train and race one.

danceronice
Nov. 19, 2009, 10:23 AM
I agree with Bacchus. I don't have a problem wanting to race a twelve-year-old. I just think that the reasoning behind it indictaes the girl is...uh...not mature or experienced enough to make that judgement.

My OTTB loved to *go*. He was probably twelve or thirteen when he bolted with me and ran a fast quarter just for kicks (fortunately he still remembered where the racing brakes were and came down when I got the bit back and asked. Not a spook, we just had a flat strip of field verge in front of us and he decided to breeze himself.) That did NOT suggest to me in any way that he was capable of going back to the track! He's a TB, of course he likes to run.

And I have to agree, the stewards knew this horse was there. Unless there was some piece of information they didn't get until just before post time, they should have scratched her that morning or the day before.

Kyzteke
Nov. 19, 2009, 10:55 AM
My OTTB loved to *go*. He was probably twelve or thirteen when he bolted with me and ran a fast quarter just for kicks (fortunately he still remembered where the racing brakes were and came down when I got the bit back and asked. He's a TB, of course he likes to run.

I bought a Black Mackee mare at auction (I know, I'm sure none of you have ever heard of Black Mackee, but he was a big deal out this way); she'd been a hard-knocking race mare in her day, but had only been a broodmare for at least 4 years when I got her.

A year later I take her to a WB inspection. Well, the mares are suppose to wear a bridle for that, so on goes her bridle. Oh, MY -- you should have seen her!! She probably hadn't had a bridle on since her racing days, yet she arched her neck and pranced around like she was off to the paddock.

It was so cute...

What9000?!
Nov. 19, 2009, 11:17 AM
I LOL'd at all of you. You believe what the media would like you too. You may think you know everything when in reality you are nothing more than a tool.


PROTIP; There are 3 sides to every story, His, Hers, and the truth. Life is all about perception.

evans36
Nov. 19, 2009, 11:19 AM
So of course you started looking into obtaining your trainer's license and thinking about where you could find a track to start conditioning her? :D

At 10, mine loved to run too. And he could have been conditioned to that point and taken back to the track, and he would have thought it the greatest thing ever... until he lost. That horse (and I suspect the others who truly "love to run") HATED to lose - even just on a trail ride.

The saddest thing about it for me with the horse is that the horse will be put in a position like that. It may not be abuse, but it certainly does the horse no favors.

WhiteCamry
Nov. 19, 2009, 11:36 AM
And I know plenty of timber/cross country TBs who were winning races like the Maryland Gold Cup (4 miles over timber) at 14-17 years old.
I think you mean the Maryland Hunt Cup. The Maryland Gold Cup was for 2yos at Bowie in the 1950s.

Bacchus
Nov. 19, 2009, 12:31 PM
I LOL'd at all of you. You believe what the media would like you too. You may think you know everything when in reality you are nothing more than a tool.


PROTIP; There are 3 sides to every story, His, Hers, and the truth. Life is all about perception.

Enlighten us, please. I don't think the media is making up quotes from these people (although I'm well aware that they do this sometimes). It would be pretty stupid to make up a quote of someone saying, "I'm strapped for cash." Talk about a lawsuit.

The last thing I'd do if I lost my job was take on a horse, and I sure as heck wouldn't put one in "training."

jengersnap
Nov. 19, 2009, 12:44 PM
I LOL'd at all of you. You believe what the media would like you too. You may think you know everything when in reality you are nothing more than a tool.



Nope, pretty sure most of us thought this was a dubious effort well before the horse was scratched and the press story links started to surface. Green owner/trainer with a first horse being a 12 yr old with 9 solid years of pasture puffing is something anyone with a care for the industry would sit up and take notice of. And if this is said owner/trainer posting, it rather reiterates the need for a caution flag.


"You know, (the backlash) might happen the first time I run her, but when she wins that race and comes back fine, I think people will accept it," she said."

is living in a fantasy land. The statistical probability of a true first time trainer winning their first race with a younger horse claimed or ready to run from conditioning is very very low. Add to the scenario an older mare and the long term goal of making a profitable return on investment, even if getting the mare for free, and you're talking Disney movie material. You might as well be hedging your bets with lottery tickets.

I've nothing against running older horses. We run and win with horses at ages most have long since retired or broke down. But I also am married to a trainer with 40+ years of experiance in the biz. It takes both luck and experiance to get anywhere in racing. Feeling lucky isn't enough.

EponaRoan
Nov. 19, 2009, 12:50 PM
I bought a Black Mackee mare at auction (I know, I'm sure none of you have ever heard of Black Mackee, but he was a big deal out this way

I know Black Mackee! They used to bring a bunch of (very fuzzy compared to our desert horses) yearlings by him to our local sale. They were pretty decent runners too - early bloomers if I'm recalling correctly.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 19, 2009, 01:03 PM
I LOL'd at all of you. You believe what the media would like you too. You may think you know everything when in reality you are nothing more than a tool. ...

I smell troll and why is it that this forum seems to be attracting more and more of them? I don't think anyone sees this story as being cut and dried whatsoever. Half truths with intent and more then a bit of delusion somewhere tossed in the mix.

Could the horse hit the board? I wouldn't say it isn't possible. However missing that puts no money in her pocket and the bills are still there. Then there are the worst case scenarios of injury and where does the money come from then ....

pinkdiamondracing
Nov. 19, 2009, 01:42 PM
I know Black Mackee too!!! I always thought they were missing the boat by not turning his babies into sport horses-- what lookers and movers they were!!!

danceronice
Nov. 19, 2009, 01:48 PM
I just looked up Black Mackee...wow! Does he have any grandbabies running around?

Junie's Mom
Nov. 19, 2009, 03:19 PM
I LOL'd at all of you. You believe what the media would like you too. You may think you know everything when in reality you are nothing more than a tool.


PROTIP; There are 3 sides to every story, His, Hers, and the truth. Life is all about perception.


Hey What9000 - did you used to be Kathleen Freeman, by any chance?

all13579
Nov. 19, 2009, 04:28 PM
Anyone that has ever done any business with Rick Trontz knows that he's anything BUT decent. Here's one of many examples

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/49024/chilling-tales-told-at-kentucky-trial

He's been a liar and a weasel from the beginning and someone finally got to take him to court.

Just look at all the discrepancies about his side of this story from one article to the next.

I don't really know anything about her or the horse other than the horse apparently passed the state vet exam (which would indicate that the horse is sound and in good health for racing), and that it had 3 workouts pretty close together and remained sound. But, what I do know, is that I'm not buying Rick's side of it.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 19, 2009, 04:55 PM
But, what I do know, is that I'm not buying Rick's side of it.

He's a non issue from what I can see. No attempts to derail this woman from racing her. I stated his opinion which is shared by others that she likely shouldn't be racing the horse. Beyond that I don't see where this guy is the story.

Once again an alter name appears on this forum. Shocking.

all13579
Nov. 19, 2009, 05:51 PM
Once again an alter name appears on this forum. Shocking.

What?!? There again, what do I have to do with the articles? Nothing. I, and MANY others, have had to suffer because of his lies and the way he twists stories against other people after someone parts ways from him. Regardless of the circumstances. She's apparently no different. I dealt with him for a little while at Del Mar, and I regret every minute of it.

All I'm saying, is that just because you have quotes from him about whatever she may or may not have said, doesn't mean anything. One minute he says he told her it was for breeding only, the next was basically Oh I meant No racing either. Then he claims he told her that it was for pleasure riding only.. and on and on. The stewards made the statement to the T'bred Times that she was "clear to run" then suddenly changed their mind at the last minute. I would've liked to have seen the mare at least get the chance without all the excessive drama.

PS Several posts mention that she has no training experience. I still haven't seen anything that shows that she didn't apprentice under a trainer in the past, it just says that this is her first start in her own career.

Linny
Nov. 19, 2009, 06:34 PM
As anyone here who has been an exercise rider will attest, the effort need to race is far greater than "she loves to run." This mare was a stakes horse at a minor track and obviously got hurt because she never ran again off the claim. As a dtr of Qiet American she got a shot in the shed and failed. For 9 years she did nothing but stand in a field, as broodies do.
Would any of you hunter riders take a 9 year pasture puff and send her to a hunter derby off of 4 months training?
It's too much to ask.
The stewards should have addressed this as soon as she was entered.

Kyzteke
Nov. 19, 2009, 07:55 PM
I just looked up Black Mackee...wow! Does he have any grandbabies running around?

I am going to totally hijack this thread for a minute, since it seems to rapidly be going south anyway.

10-12 years ago I bought a 12 year old broodmare at an auction for $800. I just liked the way she looked and I wanted to breed (boy, did THAT turn out to be a slippery slope, but never mind :eek:).

Turns out she was a daughter of Black Mackee, who a local tracker friend of mine said was "a pretty good sire." At the time he was standing in Montana -- TB breeding capital of the world :winkgrin:, where I believe he stood till his death. I'm pretty sure he was still breeding mares well into his 20's.

There was a story in the local paper about him, and they use to turn him out with the weanlings & yearlings in the winter...he was their babysitter. He lived in this big old pasture out in the middle of nowhere with afew run out sheds....just like a regular western horse.

He had TONS of babies out here in the West/Pacific NW -- the saying was "you could breed a fencepost to Black Mackee and get a winner."

And you could, just about. Not a stakes winner (at least, not too many), but the kind of horse that paid his way, a nickel and dime at a time.

My mare didn't win much, but she ran till she was 5 and won or hit the board at distances between 6f and 1 1/4 miles -- beat the boys once or twice too. Best she ever did was allowance.

His get were good sport horses too -- I know several sporthorse breeders who used his daughters as foundation stock for their program, although they produced more jumper, eventer & hunter type horses than dressage. I was told it was the Eight Thirty & Sailor in his pedigree.

The mare that I bought produced two nice foals for me -- one a Premium foal by the WB Ideal (sold to a h/j gal in Florida, where he won afew lower level championships) and the other by an Akhal Teke stallion. That mare still lives near me and carts her owner all over the mountains. Tough mare. Would do endurance if the owner wanted.

Some years ago I happened on a BloodHorse Magazine -- hadn't looked at one in years. Was looking at their various "Leading Sires" list and damn if there wasn't Black Mackee on one of them!!

Can't remember which one, but I'm thinking it was "Leading Sire of Winners." I think he was in the Top 20 or thereabouts at the time. I couldn't believe it.

He was a grand old guy and one hell of a consistent producer. According to my rather shaky math he sired something like 63% winners. Class act all the way. His get were tough, had alot of try, and tended to get better as they got older.

Here's his obit:
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/breeding-news/2003/June/03/Leading-Montana-sire-Black-Mackee-dead.aspx

OK, back to our regularly scheduled snarling....;)

What9000?!
Nov. 20, 2009, 12:38 AM
Anyone that has ever done any business with Rick Trontz knows that he's anything BUT decent. Here's one of many examples

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/49024/chilling-tales-told-at-kentucky-trial

He's been a liar and a weasel from the beginning and someone finally got to take him to court.

Just look at all the discrepancies about his side of this story from one article to the next.

I don't really know anything about her or the horse other than the horse apparently passed the state vet exam (which would indicate that the horse is sound and in good health for racing), and that it had 3 workouts pretty close together and remained sound. But, what I do know, is that I'm not buying Rick's side of it.

About time someone says this other than me. Thank you good sir or madam. I'm not saying the media has lied about this story in any way... But what I am saying is there is much more to it than you all know.

In response to the person who smelled a troll; no trolls here. The horse is fit, and passed the state exam TWICE on race day. She is just as sound as any other horse that was entered in race 5.

WinterTriangle
Nov. 20, 2009, 05:10 AM
what a mess. :no:

I thought it was INTERESTING subject, conversationally, which is why I posted.

Hope it didn't cause too many problems. :)


Most recent article I read tonight from DRF: "forky" will remain in training. (not sure what emoticon I should use here, LOL!)

Linny
Nov. 20, 2009, 07:34 AM
The fact remains that due to the rather unusual circumstances, the stewards should tave taken action as soon as this mare's name it the entry box, not when she was in the paddock.
This mare was actually taking money at 15-1. I know it was a poor field, but even against these (and I did thoroughly examine the field) she should have ben 50-1 or more.
The odds of any 1st time trainer winning are very long. I know many long time assistants to guys like Pletcher and Frankel that go out on their own and don't win for months, so the idea that this woman can train a 12yo pasture puff for 4 months and get a race quality performance out of her is astounding!
Every racing BB has been abuzz about this mare with many people posting notes on the Churchill FaceBook page so it's not like she snuck into the paddock. For the sake of the betting public stewards need to look into this type of thing.

Bacchus
Nov. 20, 2009, 09:00 AM
One minute he says he told her it was for breeding only, the next was basically Oh I meant No racing either. Then he claims he told her that it was for pleasure riding only.. and on and on.

I don't know this guy, and I agree that he's not really part of it any more, but what he says here all seems to jive with me. I read the articles. If I were to give, or sell for cheap, a broodmare who had been sitting in a pasture for 9 years to someone who says she's for pleasure, I'd assume it was only for pleasure and the thought of the horse being entered wouldn't cross my mind. And I'd be pissed! There are some things you should just be able to count on, and as a horse person, this is one of them.

I agree totally with Linny, etc., about the chances for this horse. If Costello wants to be a trainer, be a trainer. If she's already done her time under someone, which I highly doubt, she should start with a fit horse that has run recently and is ready to run again and might have a shot. Or, she should do her time as an assistant trainer, learn a few basics, and then start with a fit horse that was started by someone else and is ready to run.

Leave this poor mare alone or send her to someone who knows what they are doing!

SleepyFox
Nov. 20, 2009, 09:35 AM
Would any of you hunter riders take a 9 year pasture puff and send her to a hunter derby off of 4 months training?
It's too much to ask.

Just fyi, 4 months is pretty standard for conditioning from either a long layoff or from coming out of the field for the first time. There isn't much to raise eyebrows about there. Some people drag it out and some people go faster. But, with a sound horse that is training well, that timeframe raises no red flags.

soccermom711
Nov. 20, 2009, 02:02 PM
Just fyi, 4 months is pretty standard for conditioning from either a long layoff or from coming out of the field for the first time. There isn't much to raise eyebrows about there. Some people drag it out and some people go faster. But, with a sound horse that is training well, that timeframe raises no red flags.

Good point SleepyFox.

I started reading this thread just out of sheer curiousity. You certainly don't see this every day. However, I continued reading with a sense of outrage on this young person's behalf. Horses change hands all the time in racing under somewhat questionable circumstances - often not ending up as lucky as the mare in question. I would bet that this mare is thriving with daily care and attention. I would also bet this inexperienced trainer is not using illegal supplements or questionable procedures to get this mare to the track. This could quite possibly be the "cleanest" horse at that track right now. I'd bet all my money it's one of the soundest. I also fail to see where anyone betting on this horse is being cheated in any way -- the stats are there in the program and if they still choose to wager, they have as good a chance at winning as anyone else. Any horse, on any given day, can win or lose. The odds were certainly stacked against her but I have to give her credit for trying. To me, it appears that in this case, as in many others, the big names used their influence and won this battle. I, for one, hope she wins the war. She is not doing this horse a disservice as long as she is healthy and sound. I understand her tears in the paddock after being unfairly denied an opportunity that she had been diligently working towards. Odds are, other horses ran in that race that weren't nearly as sound - that will come as no surprise to anyone familiar with racing. I am shocked at the amount of criticism being sent in this young person's direction. I wish her alot of luck in the future and hope she persists in her goal to succeed in a very tough industry.

As Calvin Coolidge once said:
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race”

Beaver Breeze
Nov. 20, 2009, 02:19 PM
As anyone here who has been an exercise rider will attest, the effort need to race is far greater than "she loves to run." This mare was a stakes horse at a minor track and obviously got hurt because she never ran again off the claim. As a dtr of Qiet American she got a shot in the shed and failed. For 9 years she did nothing but stand in a field, as broodies do.
Would any of you hunter riders take a 9 year pasture puff and send her to a hunter derby off of 4 months training?
It's too much to ask.
The stewards should have addressed this as soon as she was entered.

That's not necessarily the case. Trontz claims fillies to breed to his stallions (much like Ken Ramsey and others do), and may have had absolutely no intention of running her again. In this case, he sent her to his first-year stallion Royal Anthem, so my guess is she was claimed strictly with the intention of helping to make the horse.

slvrblltday
Nov. 20, 2009, 02:28 PM
Good point SleepyFox.

I started reading this thread just out of sheer curiousity. You certainly don't see this every day. However, I continued reading with a sense of outrage on this young person's behalf. Horses change hands all the time in racing under somewhat questionable circumstances - often not ending up as lucky as the mare in question. I would bet that this mare is thriving with daily care and attention. I would also bet this inexperienced trainer is not using illegal supplements or questionable procedures to get this mare to the track. This could quite possibly be the "cleanest" horse at that track right now. I'd bet all my money it's one of the soundest. I also fail to see where anyone betting on this horse is being cheated in any way -- the stats are there in the program and if they still choose to wager, they have as good a chance at winning as anyone else. Any horse, on any given day, can win or lose. The odds were certainly stacked against her but I have to give her credit for trying. To me, it appears that in this case, as in many others, the big names used their influence and won this battle. I, for one, hope she wins the war. She is not doing this horse a disservice as long as she is healthy and sound. I understand her tears in the paddock after being unfairly denied an opportunity that she had been diligently working towards. Odds are, other horses ran in that race that weren't nearly as sound - that will come as no surprise to anyone familiar with racing. I am shocked at the amount of criticism being sent in this young person's direction. I wish her alot of luck in the future and hope she persists in her goal to succeed in a very tough industry.


Is the fact that she lied to her former employer and owner of the horse, who gave her the horse for free (she was laid off from Hopewell, btw, folks) to get the papers so she could race the mare defensible too?

soccermom711
Nov. 20, 2009, 02:39 PM
Is the fact that she lied to her former employer and owner of the horse, who gave her the horse for free (she was laid off from Hopewell, btw, folks) to get the papers so she could race the mare defensible too?


As we know absolutely none of this for sure, I won't make a judgement there. Too many liars and cheaters in this game to make that call. My only concern is the horse's well being. Sadly, there are many horses in much worse circumstances in the barns of the big name trainers. I'm hard pressed to feel sorry for the big guys. Another question to ask yourself - since this mare was on a broodmare farm and was not able to produce, what were the odds for a happy ending for her had this young girl not taken an interest in her?

soccermom711
Nov. 20, 2009, 02:45 PM
And it's also not a crime to be laid off folks. I may be in that same predicament myself soon. She may have another means of support, be on unemployment or work part time. Clearly, she was still able to feed, shoe, and care for the mare because the mare was working out and passing vet exams.

Ironically, if I get laid off, I'll have that much more time to work with my horses and pursue my goals. I'm almost looking forward to it:winkgrin:

slvrblltday
Nov. 20, 2009, 02:57 PM
And it's also not a crime to be laid off folks.

I read nowhere where anyone implied anything of the sort. I certainly wasn't. I think we can all empathize with people in that situation.



Ironically, if I get laid off, I'll have that much more time to work with my horses and pursue my goals. I'm almost looking forward to it:winkgrin:

Not touching this because it's infuriating me too much. I'll just say it must be nice to be in your position, soccermom.

slvrblltday
Nov. 20, 2009, 02:59 PM
As we know absolutely none of this for sure, I won't make a judgement there. Too many liars and cheaters in this game to make that call. My only concern is the horse's well being. Sadly, there are many horses in much worse circumstances in the barns of the big name trainers. I'm hard pressed to feel sorry for the big guys.


"We were trying to find (Grand Forks) a nice home, and we had let (Costello) ride her at the farm," Trontz said Wednesday. "When she left and wanted to take her, she came back and asked for the (foal) papers saying she needed them for show or dressage.

"I guess I have to be much more careful and spell everything out next time because I never thought in a million years she would try and use her as a racehorse. We just took her at her word, and she wasn't honest. She's not doing the right thing."

http://www.kentucky.com/horse_racing/story/1025578.html

Yes, I suppose it's possible the Lexington Herald-Leader fabricated those quotes.


Another question to ask yourself - since this mare was on a broodmare farm and was not able to produce, what were the odds for a happy ending for her had this young girl not taken an interest in her?
Considering Hopewell held on to her for nine years while producing no living offspring, I don't think there's anything that suggests she was on the next truck to the border.

Beam Me Up
Nov. 20, 2009, 03:06 PM
When trainers write "not to be raced" or something on papers when selling off the track, is that at all enforceable?

I have bought a couple off the track that did that (instead of just keeping the papers themselves). I didn't care either way since I'm not a race person, but it's hard for me to imagine that writing that down, without signing it, could prevent future trainers from racing the horse, can it? If 1 trainer writes that, no others can overturn it? What if someone snuck that onto the papers of their competition?

Not looking to enter any of my old beasts, I just always wondered if that had any legal basis or was just to discourage.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 20, 2009, 03:46 PM
When trainers write "not to be raced" or something on papers when selling off the track, is that at all enforceable?

See the other thread on concerning the lawsuit with Sam P:

Racing thread - "Judge rules "retired" means 'no racing'" (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215245)

No resolution yet on that case which is still on appeal.

As for 'Grand Forks' I don't think anyone has any basis to (nor has anyone on this BB) deride the training efforts of her owner. Precious little on the day to day of this pair is known and how they've been preparing.

Maybe she is like Jonathan Sheppard who can coax some amazing efforts out of older horses who are lightly used. Then again Sheppard can draw from decades of experience which shouldn't be discounted lightly.

The flip side to that is that no one should lift her on some amazing pedestal that suggests the horse is clean as a whistle and hay-oats-water only and she's some wunderkind putting the Pletchers to shame. Per the entry the horse was running on lasix Wed.

Kentucky has no law against the age of a starting horse although the racing stewards do have (as exercised) at their discretion the right to rule a horse out. I suspect the horse will return to the track, will pass the inspection, and will start.

DeeThbd
Nov. 20, 2009, 03:49 PM
Actually, Jenn, at some levels of showing the horse needs a passport (which for Equine Canada means registration papers), even here in ON. In order to show, say, in our local dressage organization, they need an Equine Canada passport.
On the passport application it says
a copy of the horse registration forms (please do not submit original documentation – copies only).In the case of a horse for which there is no record of registration, the application must be accompanied by a sworn affidavit that the animal is not registered,
So, if an owner witholds paper on a nice TB, they are essentially precluding that horse from moving into a career into showing in some regions.:no:
Dee

Christa P
Nov. 20, 2009, 03:59 PM
Actually, Jenn, at some levels of showing the horse needs a passport (which for Equine Canada means registration papers), even here in ON. In order to show, say, in our local dressage organization, they need an Equine Canada passport.
On the passport application it says
a copy of the horse registration forms (please do not submit original documentation – copies only).In the case of a horse for which there is no record of registration, the application must be accompanied by a sworn affidavit that the animal is not registered,
So, if an owner witholds paper on a nice TB, they are essentially precluding that horse from moving into a career into showing in some regions.:no:
Dee


It sounds like as long as the current owner has a COPY of the papers they are fine for Equine Canada. So the person selling the horse can give the new owner a copy of the registration papers that won't allow the horse to race (need the originals), but will allow it to show at any level.

Christa

DeeThbd
Nov. 20, 2009, 04:11 PM
Unfortunately, some trainers won't even give that, Christa. I am currently appealing to the former trainer of my youngest gelding for his papers. I am willing to sign anything he wants to assure that this horse will NEVER race again; he can check all of my references, get anybody he wants to speak up for my character....but he doesn't want to turn them over. I have had my other OTTBS for 15 and four years respectively, and he can come see his former horse whenever he wants. No dice (yet).
Their intention is to protect the horse, but what they are unfortunately doing (IMHO) is booting the horse out the door with no means of identifying it if it changes hands (note all of the threads asking for help reading tattoos). I know that papers CAN be lost, but once the horse leaves without them, they become anonymous very quickly. It's an unfortunate thign that their papers provide the horse with more "value" in many buyers' eyes - and without their papers, they are often on perilous ground.
Dee

soccermom711
Nov. 20, 2009, 04:16 PM
I read nowhere where anyone implied anything of the sort. I certainly wasn't. I think we can all empathize with people in that situation.




Not touching this because it's infuriating me too much. I'll just say it must be nice to be in your position, soccermom.

First of all, it doesn't appear that EVERYONE is sympathetic to people who are laid off -- some people seem to be implying that if you're laid off, you can't afford to train your horse.

So sorry to infuriate you - gosh it must be nice to be you and always intuitively know exactly what is going on in other people's lives. As a divorced, single, mother of 3 school age children who left an abusive husband and just re-entered the work force after over 10 years of staying at home with them, yup, it's a blast to be me. Oh, did I mention that because of the ex's depression and control issues he bankrupted us in the process of our divorce and left me with no credit to restart my life? I'm approaching my third year with an international company, have received excellent reviews and was well on my way to be promoted AGAIN - until we got the news that our jobs would all be moved to another state where employees are more cheaply paid. I will, however, make the most of my time while being laid off and searching for another job in a very bad job market. I have already found ways to rebuild my credit and buy a home. I paid cash for my car. I will make sure my kids and I are ok and I will use any extra time I now have while unemployed to further my goals with my horses. I can multi-task. So sue me.

I'm also not suggesting the newspaper fabricated any quotes, but at the same time, I'm not sure why I should believe the former owner any more than the new owner. Perhaps I'm just a tad more worldly than you are, but trust me, I've heard it all before. If this farm was laying off workers - that's human beings they had to cast off - you cannot ask me to believe they won't ultimately cast off their non-producing mares. I won't believe it, because I've seen it. I've also adopted mares from the big broodmare farms and I can tell you -- as much as those horses may be fed and their basic needs seen to, otherwise they often receive precious little time and attention, therefore, when their basic needs are being seen to they are often difficult to handle resulting in less than ideal treatment. It's not exactly a great life.

In summary, I refuse to attack someone who, at the end of the day, loves and cares for her horse while not being in her shoes and knowing all of the facts. Entirely too often, we never hear the whole story or the whole truth.

Lady Counselor
Nov. 20, 2009, 04:17 PM
Interesting situation. Can't say I personally would do what this girl is doing. Think if I was getting my first racehorse, I would try for something younger and currently racing. I also would make damn sure that I wasn't counting on that horse for one red nickle, and I would have money put aside for a year's expenses for it.
If it was an easy game, wouldn't everyone have great stats? Look at the experienced conditioners whose horses run up the track, beaten many lengths. It costs bucks every time you drop one in the entry box, even if there are no fees to actually enter. By the time you pay jock mount, HBPA fees, medication, transport, pony fee, a groom to run them, you are out a couple hundred bucks easily.
Now take a person who has one horse and is competing against people with 45 of them who runs nice horses cheaper so they are the class of the field.
Add in a mare who is now older and coming off a long layoff, with a potentially inexperienced trainer, well all I can say is horses can make us look good or bad. There's always hope for a Disney ending here, but I wouldn't stake paying my rent on it.
And I also feel that if the mare was to be scratched, the stewards should have acted earlier. Maybe they were trying to figure it all out? Must be a first.
Well, will wait to see how it plays out.
On a side note, when people were discussing the trainer's test, years ago, there was a big loophole in MA. You could take a horse to any one of the fairs that ran, pay your $30 and get a trainer's license, no test, no time spent on the backside, no nothing. Basically it was set up for the person who kept a racehorse in the field all year before pulling them out for 30 days conditioning to run at the fair meets.
What was happening was a lot of those folks were then going to the mile track (Suffolk) and were being issued trainer's licenses there. Once you had that, you could be licensed anywhere.
Some really clueless folks got licensed that way.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 20, 2009, 04:40 PM
First of all, it doesn't appear that EVERYONE is sympathetic to people who are laid off -- some people seem to be implying that if you're laid off, you can't afford to train your horse.

How did this topic become some quasi class warfare topic?

The woman being without a job never was directly stated and every publication has treated her role as trainer now as being her current occupation. So having been laid off long ago or even recently is somewhat rather moot. The only citation of her having been let go was in relation to how she obtained the horse. She worked for the prior owner, was able to keep the horse, and no longer works there.

Money woes were cited openly by Ms Costello. As for "can't afford to train the horse" well her comments are suggestive of that. As cited in the Daily Racing Form (http://www.drf.com/news/article/109010.html):


"I can't afford to bring her down here and not run her," Costello, based in Lexington, said between sobs.

Read it directly or between the lines but its a pretty damning admission for someone to make.

Barbara L.
Nov. 20, 2009, 06:02 PM
If she burst into tears in the paddock, had a dream of making a 9yo mare into a successful racehorse, maybe her comment about not being able to afford to bring her to Churchill from Lexington was just more, young, inexperience, emotional drama queen stuff.

I know trainers who say they cannot afford $50 to ship horses from the track to our retirement farm although they are cutting their costs getting rid of the horse, so don't you think some of this could have been exaggeration on her part, too?
She is obviously getting help from someone (the guy who helped saddle the mare) like everyone does at one time or another.

I am with anyone who says the horse is getting good care, so let her bring her along to race, if she wants to...we all want to follow our dreams every once in awhile and should be allowed to.

The two problems I see are the lie about getting the papers, and the stewards not looking into it as soon as they saw an unknown trainer, shipping a horse from the training center, that had not raced in so many years. The red flag was at entry time, not in the paddock. That is kind of embarrassing for the track. They just should have asked COTHers about it--cuz you guys were all over it way sooner than John Veitch was!!

Jessi P
Nov. 20, 2009, 10:09 PM
Well said, Barbara.

I completely agree with you about the 2 points.

1) The time to address the issue was at entry time or alternatively scratch time, not in the paddock at race time.

2) Secondly, I don't care for the way she reportedly lied to get the papers - deception is never a good thing in any form.

I have had business dealings with Rick Trontz and his Bluegrass Bloodstock agency in the past - I sold stallion seasons and shares for him online and bred mares to one of the Hopewell stallions - he has always been above board and honest to a fault with me.

What9000?!
Nov. 21, 2009, 12:32 AM
How about trying this on for size? The horse was offered originally free and clear with no restrictions. Rick did not care about what happened to this horse. What he did care about was someone taking her and turning her into a possible gem.

Hopewell farm. Hmmm?... If Rick trontz was such and upstanding horse owner with all this "lets be humane", then why does he refuse to spend a little money and give an old broodmare a more dignified death? No, he had someone use a 22 caliber pistol put it to her head and splattered her brains. Unfortunately, they didnt place the barrel correctly, and the horse was still alive until the second shot was fired. The employees on the farm all offered to pay for the "pink shot" and he STILL refused to let the vet use it.

[edit]

GreenMachine
Nov. 21, 2009, 08:41 AM
To echo Glimmerglass, Tronz is not the issue. Regardless of whether or not he's a sleazeball (I have no way of knowing and have a policy of not trusting the testimony of hysterical trolls), the owner/trainer comes across as an emotional, "Dreamer"-influenced girl who seems to think that somehow she's going to turn this mare into a winning racehorse right out of a fairy tale. I suppose stranger things have happened, but I can't help but wonder what fantasy land she's living in.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 22, 2009, 05:01 PM
Looks like a 2009 Churchill Downs start won't happen; only a slim chance of being cleared for a a Friday start on Nov 27th.

Courier Journal 11-21-09 "Grand Forks works but faces another hurdle to running" (http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/trackside/2009/11/grand-forks-works-but-faces-another.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+courier-journal%2FddIR+%28Horse+Racing+Blog%29)

excerpt


Churchill stewards afterward said Grand Forks cannot be entered for a race until tests on blood taken from the mare after the workout are completed. That is expected to be no earlier than Friday. The meet ends Saturday with an all-2-year-old card.

Costello was hoping to run Grand Forks in a $5,000 claiming race Friday. But entries for that card are taken Tuesday, the day the University of Florida is expected to receive the blood for testing.


Veitch called it a "mistake" that Churchill's racing office accepted the entry for last week's race. But he acknowledged, "I can't recall ever hearing of, reading or being involved in a situation like that."

From Conlie Spicer, a former trainer who said he has been helping Costello:


"The girl has an equine management degree. She's not an idiot on horses. This horse has not wanted for anything, had not taken a backseat for anything. This horse has been taken care of like a Derby horse from the day she got the horse."

Just my view but I truly do think the front office at Churchill is getting a lot of unwanted feedback/input from folks not wanting to let this horse run. If you read on a board like Thoroughbred Champions there are several who said they'd call Churchill to complain.

To those who said CD and John Veitch waited too long to scratch the horse and should've done so at the time of the entry I'll say I'm sure the officials did look for violations to rule the horse off. They couldn't and finally in the end pulled the trigger under the reasoning of "just because we can".

What9000?!
Nov. 22, 2009, 05:19 PM
They waited till the day of the race and sent the state vet out twice to see forky. First time was a normal visit and took every bit of 2 minutes. A little time had passed and if memory serves me correctly, about an hour before race the stewards office called about sending the state vet out again and also questioned the ownership of the animal. The night before we left I made copies of those papers just in case.

The second visit consisted of 2 vets and they went all over her and found nothing wrong. They then asked for papers which I promptly produced and they looked at them and then told us "good luck". The stewards office then called and told us we were ready to race and there were no more problems.

This whole thing turned out to be a case of what someone mentioned somewhere of "Silent diplomacy". Kathleen has been black balled and by us taking forky out yesterday for them to watch her work was just another slap in the face. It was set up to where the "blood work" would not be back in time for her to enter into fridays race ending any chance of getting her in this meet..

Besides all that, the state vet was kinda a jerk. He said there was nothing as a vet he could say was wrong with the horse but "She doesnt have a chance at all of winning anything". He was really snarky with how he acted, to the point I had to get out of the stall and smoke a cigarette to keep from splitting his wig.

Sorry for being so disorganized with my thoughts in this response.. With work and keeping up with everything else it leaves little time for sleep. lol

EDIT: BTW, im not hysterical... Nor am I a troll.

Laurierace
Nov. 22, 2009, 05:48 PM
They waited till the day of the race and sent the state vet out twice to see forky. First time was a normal visit and took every bit of 2 minutes. A little time had passed and if memory serves me correctly, about an hour before race the stewards office called about sending the state vet out again and also questioned the ownership of the animal. The night before we left I made copies of those papers just in case.

The second visit consisted of 2 vets and they went all over her and found nothing wrong. They then asked for papers which I promptly produced and they looked at them and then told us "good luck". The stewards office then called and told us we were ready to race and there were no more problems.

This whole thing turned out to be a case of what someone mentioned somewhere of "Silent diplomacy". Kathleen has been black balled and by us taking forky out yesterday for them to watch her work was just another slap in the face. It was set up to where the "blood work" would not be back in time for her to enter into fridays race ending any chance of getting her in this meet..

Besides all that, the state vet was kinda a jerk. He said there was nothing as a vet he could say was wrong with the horse but "She doesnt have a chance at all of winning anything". He was really snarky with how he acted, to the point I had to get out of the stall and smoke a cigarette to keep from splitting his wig.

Sorry for being so disorganized with my thoughts in this response.. With work and keeping up with everything else it leaves little time for sleep. lol

EDIT: BTW, im not hysterical... Nor am I a troll.

No but you are clueless as to what constitutes a race horse and need to thank the state vets and stewards for making you look a little less [unknowledgeable] than you would have if the horse had gone to the post. Seriously get a clue please?!?!

tbracer65
Nov. 22, 2009, 06:08 PM
No but you are clueless as to what constitutes a race horse and need to thank the state vets and stewards for making you look a little less [unknowledgeable] than you would have if the horse had gone to the post. Seriously get a clue please?!?!

Laurie...I think that was uncalled for & a little harsh. :no:

sm473
Nov. 22, 2009, 06:54 PM
I wish that this many people would get mad about racing two year olds.

Laurierace
Nov. 22, 2009, 06:59 PM
Laurie...I think that was uncalled for & a little harsh. :no:

You are right, the entire TB industry has conspired against them because they are afraid to be shown up by a newbie with an old horse. NOT!

Calamber
Nov. 22, 2009, 09:21 PM
I agree SM473, I wish there was as much passion about trainer's utilizing every drug known to man, unnecessary surgical procedures, sticking their joints with steroids for "just one more", racing two year olds who are actually 1 3/4 or less, but alas, this is where all the storm and fury will go. It makes for good press. Do not know why they can get all steamed up over this, whether this is for the welfare of an older horse, or a young woman's pipe dream, the time to do something about it was not in the paddock. Someone's spine lost it's rigidity at that point.

Pat Ness
Nov. 22, 2009, 10:23 PM
I agree that racing 2 year olds is much the bigger crime. Yeah, I know about the studies - I still think it is unethical.


This racing board is real good at showing just how elitist racing is. No room for a person with a dream in racing according to some of the posters on this forum. Sounds like the State Vet should start posting here too. He would fit right in with some of you.

As long as this horse is sound (and it sounds like she had a more thorough vet check then any other horse at the track or at any other track) why the heck can't they let the two of them try?

soccermom711
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:26 AM
You are right, the entire TB industry has conspired against them because they are afraid to be shown up by a newbie with an old horse. NOT!

Having a bad day Laurie? Many times you and I agree and I appreciate your efforts in many areas regarding the well-being and care of horses. That being said, like you, I've spent a ton of time on the backside. I've spent more time than I care to admit working with and socializing with trainers/grooms/riders/employees from the top (i.e. trainers whose horses have run in the biggest races this year) to pretty darn close to the bottom. I have seen things so much worse than what this girl is doing-- on a regular basis -- as to make the uproar around this laughable. If the horse is sound and she has an experienced jockey, let her have her day. Honestly, given the ignorance and/or illegal behavior that goes on at the track every day, this woman and her horse should barely constitute a blip on anyone's radar. I'd want to watch the race out of sheer curiousity and I'd be hoping she'd somehow place. But then I like to route for the underdog, having been there myself. We've been keeping our eye on an older mare for the last 2 years -- she keeps winning and winning -- if they ever drop her, we want her as a broodmare. I know the difference is that she's not had many breaks during her career, whereas "Forky" has had one long break, but noone is standing up protesting this mare's long career.

Overall, I guess I feel sorry for her. There are so many slimy people and questionable activities going on that never get any attention. It frustrates me. I'd like to see the newspapers and officials devote their efforts in these areas.

Pronzini
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:53 AM
I feel sorry for the pile on. I think there has been wa-a-y too much attention paid to this online when you are right soccermom--there are horses with real problems out there. But this dreamer makes an easy target I guess.

keepthelegend
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:54 AM
I think, if true, the lying in regards to the papers (dressage) was obviously not a very moral thing to do. However, I don't think bringing a broodmare back to race is any sort of horrendous crime. She is obviously VERY sound - that would have been the easiest way for the stewards/vet to scratch her and I am sure any little soreness the average racehorse has would have a perfect reason for Churchill to scratch her without the paddock scene. I haven't seen her worktab, but it doesn't sound like she has much - so not being fit is probably her greatest problem. The jockey will be aware of the situation and more than likely when she gets tired 3 furlongs into the race she will be eased and canter home. Something like Rick's Natural Star. Or she wins and gets a movie deal, lol!

NancyM
Nov. 23, 2009, 10:18 AM
Everyone entering the racing industry as a trainer is green at first. There are many different ways of learning and gaining experience prior to making that first entry. Some methods of learning about the industry are more tried and true than others, more accepted, perhaps better for the horses involved. But everyone has to make their first entry as a trainer, test their theories and workmanship. The green trainer needs horseflesh to do this. The choice of this older mare with her history may not have been my choice, but she does at least have some positive aspects... she at least had some ability at some point in her life, knows how to be a successful racehorse. Mistakes may be made especially by a green trainer but also by more experienced trainers and by trainers without the long term best interest of the horse in mind, and horses may pay the price of those mistakes.

Knowing nothing about this instance except what has been written here on this thread, I extend my sympathy to this green trainer. While her chosen path for entering the industry may not be my path of choice, I think she has endured substantial hardship from the racing officials with this parody of enforcement. And I agree that there are far worse things that get by and loaded into starting gates without this amount of fuss or attention.

Worst case scenario, this mare breaks down and is euthanised. Best case scenario, the mare wins the race. Either way and anything inbetween, the trainer learns something, and these options are always present for any horse entered in a race, and any trainer.

My only fear is that with 9 years without concussive training and the attempts to grow and produce a foal a few times, this mare may have lost bone density, and thus be more susceptable to injury during the race. But perhaps she still has enough bone density to withstand racing again, and even with some loss may still be better than some younger horses. I have seen a mare come back to the races successfully after producing one foal, taking 2 years off between starts. And a stallion come back to the races successfully after taking a couple years off and siring a few foals. So it is not impossible that this scheme may have worked out.

Lady Counselor
Nov. 23, 2009, 10:37 AM
Oh Lord, remember the hysteria pre-race over Rick's Natural Star? The announcers were trying to make it sound like the horse was going to be out of control while racing and would put everyone at risk. He was overclassed, not unraced.
They really blew it waaaaay out of proportion.

Bacchus
Nov. 23, 2009, 11:04 AM
If I had a racehorse that I truly loved and wanted to be my "pet," I would never enter it in a $5,000 claiming race! Does Costello know what claiming means? I guess she figures nobody wants a 12-year-old non-producing broodmare/racehorse, and she's probably right. Of course, nobody wants a non-producing 12-year-old broodmare/racehorse because there's very little chance that the horse is going to be successful, even at the $5,000 claiming level, and a very good chance that the horse is going to be worse off for being there.

I just can't imagine why you would put a 12-year-old, retired horse back into that stressful, dangerous situation if you truly loved it. The bit about getting higher and higher every time she rides the horse is the same for every TB I've ever ridden, even my friend's 20-year-old, but that doesn't mean he wants to go back to the track. LOL. Maybe she should consult a horse psychic to make sure she understands the mare properly.

It's the fact that she put the horse in training because that's what the horse WANTS that bothers me. Is Costello 12, too? She sure acts like it. Well, that and the fact that she is strapped for cash and expects to make enough money from betting on this horse to start her stable. Come on, folks, this woman is living in a fantasy world [edit].

What kind of trainer/owner breaks down crying in the paddock when their horse is scratched? If your main concern is the fact that you can't afford to trailer your horse and have it not run, you can't afford to own a horse!

reese
Nov. 23, 2009, 11:21 AM
If any here read ALL the info in this issue you would realize this Costello is OTL. The mare has been off the TRACK for 9 years. The mare is 12 yrs ols.
Had 3 workouts. And this is according to many posts here is Race Ready?
Remind me never to take what most here post seriously.


This Costello person, and I quote, "I was going to bet $ 200 on Forky to win so I could start my own farm". And "I don't have the money to ship the horse here and then go back to Lexington w/o the mare racing"

Value of the race 5000 clmg. IF, IF the mare finished 5th, this Costello person wins $65.00.

Sure, this horse has the Life of Reilly..owned by a kook layed-off from a job she had for 4 months, w/o money to ship a horse back to Lexington?"

Who pays for vet care, feed, shoes, training center fees? This "kook" loves horse, but cannot afford to van the horse back to Lexington? Get real. I though this site had knowledgeable people. But like most...where the Rubber meets the SKY"

Cielo Azure
Nov. 23, 2009, 11:32 AM
I think, if true, the lying in regards to the papers (dressage) was obviously not a very moral thing to do. lol!

How do you know she lied? Honestly, dreams change. It could be as simple as she got her home, took her for a long gallop and thought: "I bet this horse could actually do it..."

With my horses, I often end up doing things with them because it is what they are good at and what they were meant to do, I change my plans based on the horse.

Completely different venue but same idea. I have a mare here, whose mother is a multiple year, world Champion hitch horse. I was determined not to show in that venue, as she is a brood mare and has a nasty cosmetic scar and we don't show in that venue anymore. But one day I used a hitch harness on her -just fooling around and she came alive. Her movement, her dynamic energy, it was what she is bred to do. So, this fall...my husband was in the show ring with her and got third in a huge class. Last spring, it was "no way, no how -we are sticking to driven dressage and ridden dressage" Six months later, back in the flashy show ring.

This women may not have intended to race her when she bought her -just later realized that this mare had it in her. You know, if the women worked for a TB farm, I wouldn't assume that she is naive, ignorant and stupid. If it had been a male, who did this, I bet that people would be writing differently about him (not this silly child-girl, dreamer who is throwing temper tantrums. How dare she think she can saunter in to a race track and race?). Frankly, if I obeyed all the rules, paid out a lot of money, my horse was sound and I was pulled because??? The old owner SAID I wasn't allowed (no contract was produced to verify this and in fact, there wasn't one). The call seemed to be based on that a "girl, " who was not known on the track, was doing this -If it were me, I would be down right pissed off too. It sounds to me like sexism and bigotry raised their ugly heads. In fact, a lot of comments on this board seem rather bigoted also.

My question would be why was the old owner even allowed an opinion on whether the horse raced? Who called him and why was he even consulted? Talk about a breech of ethics! Can you imagine going to race or show an animal and discover that management had been talking to the old owner about the horse's and your fitness??? What the heck? Just how did that happen and you all don't think there is something very wrong with that?

Cielo Azure
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:10 PM
Good point SleepyFox.

I started reading this thread just out of sheer curiousity. You certainly don't see this every day. However, I continued reading with a sense of outrage on this young person's behalf. Horses change hands all the time in racing under somewhat questionable circumstances - often not ending up as lucky as the mare in question. I would bet that this mare is thriving with daily care and attention. I would also bet this inexperienced trainer is not using illegal supplements or questionable procedures to get this mare to the track. This could quite possibly be the "cleanest" horse at that track right now. I'd bet all my money it's one of the soundest. I also fail to see where anyone betting on this horse is being cheated in any way -- the stats are there in the program and if they still choose to wager, they have as good a chance at winning as anyone else. Any horse, on any given day, can win or lose. The odds were certainly stacked against her but I have to give her credit for trying. To me, it appears that in this case, as in many others, the big names used their influence and won this battle. I, for one, hope she wins the war. She is not doing this horse a disservice as long as she is healthy and sound. I understand her tears in the paddock after being unfairly denied an opportunity that she had been diligently working towards. Odds are, other horses ran in that race that weren't nearly as sound - that will come as no surprise to anyone familiar with racing. I am shocked at the amount of criticism being sent in this young person's direction. I wish her alot of luck in the future and hope she persists in her goal to succeed in a very tough industry.


Yep. You wrote what I was trying to express much better than me...

keepthelegend
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:15 PM
[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;4514091]How do you know she lied? Honestly, dreams change. It could be as simple as she got her home, took her for a long gallop and thought: "I bet this horse could actually do it..."

Well, thats why I wrote "if true." Who knows what the story is.

reese
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:24 PM
[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;4514091]How do you know she lied? Honestly, dreams change. It could be as simple as she got her home, took her for a long gallop and thought: "I bet this horse could actually do it..."

Well, thats why I wrote "if true." Who knows what the story is.

Go READ the B-H, DRF,Lexington papers. You think ALL the TRADES LIED?
Costello LIED to Tronz of Hopewell to get the TB 's papers. Told the man "she needed the papers for dressage". And, no one has responded to the issue:

3 works at a "training track by a person w/ a license for 3 weeks is sufficient traoning for a 12 yr old mare after 9 YEARS away from a race?

Pasture-puff pets are NOT the same as competitive Thoroughbreds RACING.

caffeinated
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:28 PM
[quote=keepthelegend;4514182]

Go READ the B-H, DRF,Lexington papers. You think ALL the TRADES LIED?
Costello LIED to Tronz of Hopewell to get the TB 's papers. Told the man "she needed the papers for dressage".

Well, here's the thing. I don't think all the magazines/reporters lied, but I don't think that she necessarily meant to deceive anybody. I guess it depends on interpretation, but it sounds to me like she wanted the papers for whatever reason, and then later decided to bring the mare back to racing. I don't think it was some nefarious plot on her part.

Either way, I think she's smoking something to think she has a shot in hell, but I see much worse things much more worthy of anger and righteous indignation going on at the track all the time, so this one admittedly doesn't get me too fired up.

That said, I think most of the people on this thread agree with you.

DickHertz
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:42 PM
Maybe the savior of horse racing, Maggi Moss, will claim the horse and save her...(yes sarcasm intended)

What9000?!
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:52 PM
[edit]

In regards to the papers.. You DON'T know the whole story. [edit]

In regards to Grand Forks, She is sound and has been seen by many vets. Who are you to say she is unfit or broke down? Are you a doctor of veterinarian medicine? Have you examined Grand forks personally? Do you know grand forks? No you say? Thought so.

[edit] I love it how most of you just cant handle that maybe this horse is in good shape and can run. Its your hatred and negativity that fuels us. So I give you many thanks.

Yes we know [what] a Claiming race is [edit]. Did you ever think [edit] maybe there was a strategy behind that?

//LULZ MODE OFF//


I think its so funny how people can act all big and bad sitting behind their keyboards, RAGE, and say things they dont have the guts to say in real life. Grand forks is getting the best care and despite what some of you think, Kathleen knows her [stuff], and has plenty of guidance from various credible sources.

Now im not entering into a pissing contest with anyone here. But if the conversation stays respectful I would like to actually talk with you folks. See, I do hold loyalty to horsemen in general and would help them before someone else. Thanks.

Mara
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:54 PM
[edit]

Now here's a logical post guaranteed to get you taken seriously.
If you're acting like this with the stewards and the vets, don't expect anyone to bend over backwards to help you out.

Cielo Azure
Nov. 23, 2009, 12:55 PM
[QUOTE=keepthelegend;4514182]

Go READ the B-H, DRF,Lexington papers. You think ALL the TRADES LIED?
Costello LIED to Tronz of Hopewell to get the TB 's papers. Told the man "she needed the papers for dressage". And, no one has responded to the issue:

3 works at a "training track by a person w/ a license for 3 weeks is sufficient traoning for a 12 yr old mare after 9 YEARS away from a race?

Pasture-puff pets are NOT the same as competitive Thoroughbreds RACING.

There is no issue that is any of the stewards business. She had the papers, that is all he needed to know. END OF STORY. Why was the EX-owner even contacted? Why did he lie -stating the horse wasn't allowed to race and then claim later that he didn't say that but only "felt" that way? Why does it matter? It is her horse, she has the papers, end of story. Why was he contacted?

And yes, lots of people responded to the issue of the he said/she said but it doesn't matter what was said or not said. You buy a horse, you get given a horse and unless you have a valid contract stating that it can't be used for something, it is NONE OF THE EX-OWNERS BUSINESS what you do with that horse as long as it is legal!!! Why is this even being raised as an issue. There is no contract, nothing stating she can't race, IT IS HER HORSE!!!!

Unless things have changed with horse ownership, when you own an animal IT IS YOUR animal, not the ex-owner's. The ex-owner (frankly) should be sued for all and every cost associated with the horse not running because he lied to the steward and stopped that horse from running. He had no right to say that there was a contract stating that the horse was not allowed to be raced. He should be liable for the costs of her training, entry fees, etc. He was meddling to stop her from racing, plain and simple. HE lied to the steward, and race management. His actions should be investigated, as should the stewards.

keepthelegend
Nov. 23, 2009, 01:04 PM
In regard to Cielo Azure post #101 - for whatever reason it looks like my post being quoted...but i did not write that!

soccermom711
Nov. 23, 2009, 01:27 PM
[edit]

As to What9000?!............all I will say is OMG, will you please stop! lol. You are not helping her by handling yourself in this manner. If she's ever going to get a shot at racing and competing, it sounds like she'll need to maintain her composure and surround herself with people who will help, not hurt her reputation. :yes:

Moderator 1
Nov. 23, 2009, 01:33 PM
We've edited and removed references to a highly inappropriate post. ONE warning has been issued and we'll be addressing any future similar behavior more strongly.

Let's ALL avoid the insults and discuss the situation without the personal commentary.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Pronzini
Nov. 23, 2009, 01:47 PM
If I had a racehorse that I truly loved and wanted to be my "pet," I would never enter it in a $5,000 claiming race! Does Costello know what claiming means?

Sigh...you can have a horse that you breed, raise and really love --and then you put them in a claiming race (on multiple occasions.) You can do all of that and know what claiming means. You can do it with a horse you feed horse cookies to; whose name you agonized over and practiced to make sure it sounded good in a call. You do it because the horse is a racehorse, loves her job and deserves the best shot at doing well at it. You do it because one of the worst things you can do to any racehorse is to overface the horse to satisfy your own vanity. (My horse isn't cheap.)

The $5000 tag was the smartest thing she did. The horse is virtually claim proof. Its a nice easy level to test the waters. Everything else was a little :uhoh:

DickHertz
Nov. 23, 2009, 01:47 PM
Let the girl run the damn hose. There are horses in much worse shape running every day in this country. What's worse, this girl running a 12 year old mare who has passed every lameness exam known to mankind or Michael Gill's chronies blocking every weight bearing joint known to mankind? The mare will probabaly end up beating a couple of horses if she's fit anyway.

I still think John Veitch is a first-class idiot and fell asleep at the wheel in this situation. Stewards, in general, are pretty moronic in most jurisdictions. Anyone ever dealt with the stewards at Charles Town??? :rolleyes:

SleepyFox
Nov. 23, 2009, 01:58 PM
And, no one has responded to the issue:

3 works at a "training track by a person w/ a license for 3 weeks is sufficient traoning for a 12 yr old mare after 9 YEARS away from a race?



I'll respond to it: she had three OFFICIAL works prior to the race she was scratched from. We don't know her actual work schedule, but I am certain Costello didn't start her breezing at a half mile. The only works that are recorded by a clocker and published (official works) are those that take place in front of a clocker and for which a work card is turned in. So, what is on her chart isn't the whole story.

Plus she has to be reasonably fit - the state vet just watched her work a half, inpected her afterwards and said she looked fine. And, with all this publicity, you know they were going over the horse carefully.


If I had a racehorse that I truly loved and wanted to be my "pet," I would never enter it in a $5,000 claiming race! Does Costello know what claiming means?

This horse was in NO danger of being claimed. Now, with all the commotion, someone may decide they have to "rescue" her through the claim box, but when Costello entered her, she had to know she was safe. I would much rather see a horse like this entered at the lowest level available at the track than overfaced because her owner had an irrational fear of losing her.

I've entered horses I adore in claiming races. I'm not so deluded as to think I am the only one who can care for a horse properly. Plus, I know I can always either buy him back or claim him back later. I think there is a misconception out there that entering a claiming race is sort of like throwing your horse to the wolves, but it's really not. :)

DickHertz
Nov. 23, 2009, 02:05 PM
Does anyone on this board ever look at PP's for races, ESPECIALLY, claiming races, ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY Nickel claiming races?

It's common to see horses only have one published work after a long layoff. If your lucky there's more than three.

For the trainers on this board, I'm sure you've had several times where logistically, it wasn't practical to get the horse's name to the clocker and therefore you got an unpublished work. I'm not trying to nitpick posts, but as far as I'm concerned, the girl did nothing wrong. 9 years or 9 months, an unfit horse is an unfit horse and 120 days of training is enough time to get the horse fit for a hook race. In fact, I'm guessing this mare was at least active and out in a field. If it's a horse on stall rest, they are often even more unfit, but I've seen stall rest horses get a month of walking and light turnout then still make it to the races sucessfully in 90 days (still under the 120 day limit). The key is soundness, if the horse is sound coming of a layoff and you don't have any hiccups, 120 days is more than normal people.

DickHertz
Nov. 23, 2009, 02:09 PM
This horse was in NO danger of being claimed.



Not true when you have attention-seeking owners like Maggi Moss who claim horses "who should be retired".

SleepyFox
Nov. 23, 2009, 02:26 PM
Not true when you have attention-seeking owners like Maggi Moss who claim horses "who should be retired".

Touche', Dick. Let me rephrase: the horse was in no danger of being claimed by someone wanting to race her. :cool:

And, btw, excellent post above. :yes:

soccermom711
Nov. 23, 2009, 02:34 PM
Does anyone on this board ever look at PP's for races, ESPECIALLY, claiming races, ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY Nickel claiming races?

It's common to see horses only have one published work after a long layoff. If your lucky there's more than three.

For the trainers on this board, I'm sure you've had several times where logistically, it wasn't practical to get the horse's name to the clocker and therefore you got an unpublished work. I'm not trying to nitpick posts, but as far as I'm concerned, the girl did nothing wrong. 9 years or 9 months, an unfit horse is an unfit horse and 120 days of training is enough time to get the horse fit for a hook race. In fact, I'm guessing this mare was at least active and out in a field. If it's a horse on stall rest, they are often even more unfit, but I've seen stall rest horses get a month of walking and light turnout then still make it to the races sucessfully in 90 days (still under the 120 day limit). The key is soundness, if the horse is sound coming of a layoff and you don't have any hiccups, 120 days is more than normal people.

I think I love you:):lol::lol::lol::eek:

I know you write about Penn often, and since I've been away from the backside for the past 6 months or so, I enjoy keeping up with things by reading your posts.:yes:

Oh, and one more thing to add to the published works info: if you're a big enough trainer or know the right people, you can get workout times for horses that never left their stalls.:eek: Like most things these days, it's all in who you know - which is why I think the circumstances surrounding this situation are suspicous to say the least.

slvrblltday
Nov. 23, 2009, 03:04 PM
[edit]

As to What9000?!............all I will say is OMG, will you please stop! lol. You are not helping her by handling yourself in this manner. If she's ever going to get a shot at racing and competing, it sounds like she'll need to maintain her composure and surround herself with people who will help, not hurt her reputation. :yes:

Are there some that have seriously not figured out that What9000? is Costello? I thought you were supposed to be a "tad more worldly than" me soccermom (real classy to insult people whose opinions differ from yours btw).

I think reading her posts here tell me everything I need to know about her integrity, maturity and class.

Bacchus
Nov. 23, 2009, 03:40 PM
Someone who knows (or is) Costello, please fill us in on what the entire plan is/was.

Run the mare in a cheap claiming race. If she does poorly, retire her; if she does well, keep racing her until she doesn't run well anymore? Does Costello have a permanent, life home planned for this horse if she is no longer sound (this really interests me)?

Is the plan seriously to bet on her and use that money to buy more horses? Or, was that a misquote and Costello isn't planning to buy more horses? Or does she have the actual means to buy more?

Can Costello really afford a horse in training, or is she getting help from other people with costs, etc.? Will these other people always be around? Does Costello have a means of cash-flow that is not from charity/friends?

Has her plan all along been to be a horse trainer, or did it start with this mare? Is she planning to pursue it? Does she have any training experience besides this horse?

My friends and I were going to put a horse in training ourselves, but we realized how very expensive it is for one horse, and we knew we couldn't really afford it and do right by the horse. And my my vet is one of my very good friends and gives me breaks/freebies! I have a great job and make good money. My husband makes a ton of money. I can't even imagine being able to afford a horse in training, even if I were the trainer (and with my 36 years around horses, breaking and galloping experience, vet clinic experience, and Animal Science / Pre-vet degree, I know better than to think I could train a racehorse). And I have the land and income to retire another horse or two (already have four rescues, and one is a pasture pet).

soccermom711
Nov. 23, 2009, 03:47 PM
Are there some that have seriously not figured out that What9000? is Costello? I thought you were supposed to be a "tad more worldly than" me soccermom (real classy to insult people whose opinions differ from yours btw).

I think reading her posts here tell me everything I need to know about her integrity, maturity and class.


Again, you intuitively just know things the rest of us cannot be sure about. Congrats.

As for being more "wordly" -- that's not necessarily a good thing, just an observation. I'm sure you have seen things I haven't, and vice versa. I wasn't insulting you any more than I was insulting myself.

Suffice it to say, nothing surprises me anymore. If What900?! is indeed Costello, shame on her. But since I cannot be sure that it's not one of her "friends" trying to be helpful, and I can only base my opinion on the facts, I still stand by my assertion that the horse should have been allowed to race.

One other point, I came from the Hunter/Jumper/Show barn world - back in the day. Since getting back involved with horses, I've ended up in the racing world. I'd like to expand to Eventing, Hunting or Steeplechase. :) In all these new areas, I will have to once again start at the bottom and work my way up. We started racing under an old-timer who did nothing more than let us use his name. We borrowed a truck and trailer to take our first race horse to his first race with us. Money was tight but he got top notch care even if it meant we had to make sacrifices in other areas of our lives. He eventually won -- as the 29 -1 long shot. My point is, everyone has to start somewhere and I hate to see someone wrongly denied an opportunity.

Alpha_Mare
Nov. 23, 2009, 04:56 PM
I have to say I am kind of shocked to see people defending Ms. Costello and racing this mare. I assume most of you have never raced (track) before or you would know how physically demanding racing is.

I ran track most of my life until early adulthood (and held multiple records), I am in good physical shape, I am about the human equivalent of this mare’s age (middle-aged) although I have had a few more than 9 years off the track and I have 2 children. I would not even consider racing competitively let alone trying to get back in race shape.

Racing this mare is the equivalent of me racing 18 - 20 year-olds, that's crazy at best. If this woman has a dream there are plenty of younger TB's out there for very cheap and free, no reason to race a middle-aged horse after a 9yr lay-off and multiple pregnancies other than selfish motives or lack of knowledge. Either way, this story has drawn enough publicity that lack of knowledge is no longer a defense as just about every imaginable opinion has been posted about it.

It might be different if this mare had not had 9yrs off and multiple pregnancies. Pregnancy takes a toll on your body even in the best circumstances, that is why you don't see professional female athletes having babies until they're ready to retire.

DickHertz
Nov. 23, 2009, 05:15 PM
Racing this mare is the equivalent of me racing 18 - 20 year-olds, that's crazy at best.
.


Brett Favre, age 40, just had the game of his life yesterday for the Minnesota Vikings vs. a bunch of players whose average is 26. I'm someone who hates the human vs. equine analogies, in general, when they are not really applicable. We're not talking about a 12 year old broodmare (45 year old person) competing in the Ladies Classic on Breeders Cup Day, we're talking about a 12 year old competing against some nickel claimers (IE I'll bet you could compete against a bunch of 18-20 year old who had all sorts of physical ailments, right?)

I don't think most people are saying that they are so enamored with Ms. Costello that they are going to go to the next breeding stock sale and buy a fat 12 year old broodmare to see if they can race her. I think most people are saying the game is all about trial and error and most of us think this lady will learn from this experience while not injuring the horse. Heck, I'll bet the mare is having the best fun she's had in a long while.

Laurierace
Nov. 23, 2009, 05:59 PM
Brett Favre wasn't sitting on his ass for the past 9 years however. Its a hell of a lot easier to keep them going then to start them over from scratch. Personally I don't care if she runs the horse if she is sound but it is stupid from a monetary stand point and will forever brand her as a laughing stock of the industry. Thankfully none of that is my problem.

foggybok
Nov. 23, 2009, 06:25 PM
Racing this mare is the equivalent of me racing 18 - 20 year-olds, that's crazy at best. If this woman has a dream there are plenty of younger TB's out there for very cheap and free, no reason to race a middle-aged horse after a 9yr lay-off and multiple pregnancies other than selfish motives or lack of knowledge. Either way, this story has drawn enough publicity that lack of knowledge is no longer a defense as just about every imaginable opinion has been posted about it.

It might be different if this mare had not had 9yrs off and multiple pregnancies. Pregnancy takes a toll on your body even in the best circumstances, that is why you don't see professional female athletes having babies until they're ready to retire.

Tell that to Dara Torres :)

That aside, it seems funny all this fuss... I don't know the mare, nor the owner, but I have met Dr P and if he said the horse was sound to run, then it's sound to run...up to the owner to decide if it's worth it.

A few years back a trainer I knew saw a horse in a pasture. The horse had been retired 6 years or so earlier after a bowed tendon. He was a stakes class horse in his day. The trainer saw the horse in the pasture and said, he's sound, I'm going to being him back. And he pulled him out of pasture, worked him, brought him back, he stayed sound through training so he entered him in a cheap race... The horse won by lengths pulling away.... he totally outclassed the field... Nobody called him crazy for trying.... the day of the race his odds were > 30:1 in the morning line, they had dropped to 5:1 by post even though there was little available with regards to works, as almost all had been done away from the track. The handicappers were all over it, given the previous class of the horse... Maybe he had more credibilty because he was an established trainer, who knows..

But it can be done, and done right, may not be a bad thing for the horse....

And I'll stay out of the he said/she said stuff. None of us were there....

Equine Studies
Nov. 23, 2009, 07:41 PM
This story made the Fugly blog in case anyone is interested in finding more to add to this already volatile thread!

http://www.fuglyblog.com/

Interesting views on both sides. If the mare was younger and/or never a broodmare would people feel differently? What do people think are the age/background limits to bringing a horse back to racing after an extended layoff? Not trying to add fuel to the fire, just curious where everyone's comfort zones lie.

Alpha_Mare
Nov. 23, 2009, 07:55 PM
Brett Favre, age 40, just had the game of his life yesterday for the Minnesota Vikings vs. a bunch of players whose average is 26. I'm someone who hates the human vs. equine analogies, in general, when they are not really applicable. We're not talking about a 12 year old broodmare (45 year old person) competing in the Ladies Classic on Breeders Cup Day, we're talking about a 12 year old competing against some nickel claimers (IE I'll bet you could compete against a bunch of 18-20 year old who had all sorts of physical ailments, right?)

I agree Dick I don't like the human to animal analogies either because you are right they are usually not applicable. Such as Brett Favre, a professional athlete that has stayed in constant training, has not been out of the game for 9yrs, has not had multiple pregnancies and is under the guidance of professional trainers and coaches.

Frog
Nov. 23, 2009, 07:59 PM
Ah Alpha Mare, you're acting like she's going to race Zenyatta. Of course you can't race against Shalane Flanagan or Kara Goucher and expect to run well (I doubt you were ever running at a professional level). But I bet you can do well, maybe top 5 age group?, at your local 5K or 10K. Especially with a few published works. ;) See what I mean? Claiming for 5,000. And the horse wasn't even the slowest in her works, and she worked for 5 furlongs and was only entered for 6 furlongs, so I bet she'd have been fine.
I'm in the let the mare race and get over it camp myself.



I have to say I am kind of shocked to see people defending Ms. Costello and racing this mare. I assume most of you have never raced (track) before or you would know how physically demanding racing is.

I ran track most of my life until early adulthood (and held multiple records), I am in good physical shape, I am about the human equivalent of this mare’s age (middle-aged) although I have had a few more than 9 years off the track and I have 2 children. I would not even consider racing competitively let alone trying to get back in race shape.

Racing this mare is the equivalent of me racing 18 - 20 year-olds, that's crazy at best. If this woman has a dream there are plenty of younger TB's out there for very cheap and free, no reason to race a middle-aged horse after a 9yr lay-off and multiple pregnancies other than selfish motives or lack of knowledge. Either way, this story has drawn enough publicity that lack of knowledge is no longer a defense as just about every imaginable opinion has been posted about it.

It might be different if this mare had not had 9yrs off and multiple pregnancies. Pregnancy takes a toll on your body even in the best circumstances, that is why you don't see professional female athletes having babies until they're ready to retire.

Alpha_Mare
Nov. 23, 2009, 08:18 PM
Tell that to Dara Torres :)

That aside, it seems funny all this fuss... I don't know the mare, nor the owner, but I have met Dr P and if he said the horse was sound to run, then it's sound to run...up to the owner to decide if it's worth it.

A few years back a trainer I knew saw a horse in a pasture. The horse had been retired 6 years or so earlier after a bowed tendon. He was a stakes class horse in his day. The trainer saw the horse in the pasture and said, he's sound, I'm going to being him back. And he pulled him out of pasture, worked him, brought him back, he stayed sound through training so he entered him in a cheap race...

But it can be done, and done right, may not be a bad thing for the horse....

There are a few exceptions to professional female athletes who have children and continue to compete, the difference is they continue to train while pregnant.

I would not see a problem if the mare was just a 12yr old and had been on an extended lay-up, but this mare has had multiple pregnancies and didn't stay in any kind of training whatsoever. Human or animal, pregnancy takes a huge toll on your body, bone density changes, joint wear, muscle strain, etc, etc.

I also think there is a big difference in being sound to run and fit to run. I would be curious to know if this mare has had any xrays or a bone density scan. There are enough breakdowns on the track as it is and while it may be the owner's right to do with the mare as she pleases it is also her duty and responsibility to ensure that she is not posing an unnecessary risk to other jockeys and horses to fullfill a pipedream.

DickHertz
Nov. 23, 2009, 08:23 PM
The mare is sound !!!

Trust me, Churchill is and has looked for every avenue to scratch the mare based on a physical ailment and has been unsuccessful. Don't you think if there was a hole in the mare, they would have found it? Heck, I'll bet they would have probably barred her if she had a 10 year old splint. The fact that they haven't found anything leads me to believe the mare is pretty damn sound.

If someone comes on this board and posts a story about a 9 year old who is making its career debut - even if it hadn't had a bridle in its mouth the first 8 years of its life, everyone would cheer the horse on, but in this situation everyone assumes the horse is going to breakdown. She probably won't even run hard enough to breakdown for goodness sakes.

Barbara L.
Nov. 23, 2009, 09:34 PM
After all of this "expert" input, I am surprising myself and hoping she runs the mare and picks up a check! Armchair trainers are REALLY annoying, and comparing a horse with a human athlete in this respect is just plain CRAZY!

What about 10-year-old horses who race against 4 & 5 yos at every start?
And please don't insult me by starting the "she's been off for years and was pregnant" stuff.

Come on--is there some 1) jealousy here and we've all gotten old and jaded from relishing the hopes and dreams we have had for our own careers in racing?
2) or does everyone really think this as inhumane and unfair as the experienced trainers stretching the rules and tapping, shockwaving, and cheating their way to the WC?

Let her have her day...sheesh. We should be embarrassed by some of these posts, and just get the heck on with our lives.

Alpha_Mare
Nov. 23, 2009, 10:45 PM
I think everyone has completely missed my point...I could care less whether the mare races or not. I have nothing to gain or lose either way. Most on this board seem to think this woman is being picked on and I don't feel that is the case at all, I think there are some legitimate questions/concerns. I merely stated that I thought it was crazy, JMO.

I have been the RM at endurance rides and had horses in their 20's racing 50 and 100 mile races, so if I had such a problem with racing older horses I would have refused the entry.

Barbara L. You conduct yourself as a true professional, I can guarantee you I am not jealous.

Forgive me but I thought we were here to discuss the topic on hand and post our thoughts/opinions, not to act like 2yr olds and throw a tantrum when someone disagrees with us.

If they allow this mare to race, I wish them the best of luck.

tuppysmom
Nov. 23, 2009, 11:19 PM
I hope that the trainer is able to race her horse. Everyone has to start somewhere.

I had a trainer license for many years. My first horse was "older" than usual when he made his first start. He didn't win. I don't think he every even lit the board, but I learned a lot and the next horses did better. Our current horses are better off for the experience that I got as a race trainer. Every trainer has to have their first horse race.

I even had a jockey license. I never won a race as a jockey, but I did learn a lot, and my horses are better off for the experience that I did get as a jockey. It was a totally awesome experience to leave the starting gate on a really fast QH! Every jockey has to have their first trip around.

Now, I just get a license as a groom that I use soley for shopping on the backside. When I arrive at our local track the riders point and laugh and say, "look out everyone, here she comes with her shopping list!"

I didn't have any experience when I started buying from the track, but I have that now too.

None of us are born with experience.

vineyridge
Nov. 24, 2009, 12:41 AM
Do a search on this forum for earlier this year. A 12 yo won a big race and then followed it up with a win at Ascot. I THINK he had been off for a couple of years or only raced once or twice a year. Equilibrium started the thread.

Ahh, here it is:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207501

I'm with the ones who say if the mare sound, she should be allowed to start. The way the old owner was changing his story about the papers makes me doubt that he is being completely honest.

Bacchus
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:17 AM
I have no problem with racing a 12-year-old, even if it hasn't raced for nine years. I have a problem with bringing a 12-year-old back because it's what's best for the horse because it's what the horse "wants." I also have a problem with people owning horses and/or putting them in training when they can't afford it. Who's going to pay the $5,000 plus vet bill if this horse is injured? Who is going to retire the horse if it is injured and can't be a riding horse any more? Is she going to Old Friends or KyEHC then? Does Costello have a plan and money set aside for this?

If Costello has done her time as an assistant trainer, has the experience to bring a horse to the track after nine years off, and has the financial security to take proper care of the horse no matter what happens, I'm all for it.

Still, nobody has explained her experience or her plans if something goes wrong. She has friends (or herself) on this forum -- why can't they answer those simple questions?

I also have a huge problem with asking for the papers for a dressage event and then using them to race the horse. That's just too hard to let go, and I might be wrong, but I'm going with guilty until proved innocent on this one. If Costello can swear to me that she really did want the papers for dressage (I ride dressage and I've never needed them) and then the whole racing idea came up, I have no choice but to believe her. However, if that is not the case, she's scum.

danceronice
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:22 AM
My concern is not so much with the age of the horse, and true, everyone has to start somewhere. It's more that someone who is counting on winning money betting on a twelve-year-old off a LONG layup running for a first-time trainer based on her finding the horse 'liked to run' when prepping her for a non-racing career or they can't ship/afford to be there may not be entirely grounded in reality. Staking your ability to race or even haul home on your first-ever starter coming off nine years off the track winning at long odds so you collect on the *bet* is not exactly a sane or sound business practice or indicative of a person to whom I'd trust my horses were I an owner. Not to mention the person who threw the fit at the paddock (and, if some posters on FHOTD are right, on here) is not doing her any favors with the behavior, either, in terms of getting future clients.

Can the horse not start at 13 so it's imperative she race NOW? Wouldn't it be better to winter over, build up some cash reserves so you're not literally counting on a longshot, and if she can start next year, start her, or if not, pick up another cheap horse and work on them? And if she can't afford to haul home how is she going to keep this horse?

ETA: Wow, posted at the same time as Bacchus. And the only reasons I could think she'd need papers for "dressage" would be if she thought she'd show the mare a bit and then get her approved to breed for sport horses--I think the warmblood books need papers on a TB they're inspecting. But given her history I'm not sure why she'd be more likely to stay in foal to a warmblood stallion (and again, if she can't even haul home without a long-odds payoff, how would she afford to breed to anything?)

soccermom711
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:44 AM
Dancer / Bacchus,

I'm not going to argue with the logic behind many of your points. I completely see what you're saying and, in a perfect world, everyone could meet higher standards.

Is she crazy, nieve, inexperienced, poor, a liar, and destined to fail? I simply don't know because I don't know her. But, (and I have to chuckle just thinking about it), have you met some of the trainers at the track??? Let me just tell you, they almost all fall into some of the above categories. I personally know trainers with only one horse to the guy/girl with hundreds and many in between. My problem with using these factors/character flaws to determine whether she can race her mare is that it's simply not fair. Those standards are not applied to most everyone else training/racing. If her horse is healthy and sound and she has met all the other written requirements then the rest is a mute point.

If she truly loves the horse, as she has said she does, then odds are that her mare has a better chance of being properly retired or cared for than many of the horses on the backside who are nothing more than a number. We've rescued, we've rehabbed, we've helped re-home and re-train, we've found retirement homes for OTTB's. I've seen first hand how horses that are part of big operations can easily disappear, fall by the wayside, or be euthanized rather than have surgeries or be rehabbed, regardless of the fact that the owners/trainers have the money in their bank account. I'll take a small operation any day.

Lady Counselor
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:48 AM
This story made the Fugly blog in case anyone is interested in finding more to add to this already volatile thread!

http://www.fuglyblog.com/

Interesting views on both sides. If the mare was younger and/or never a broodmare would people feel differently? What do people think are the age/background limits to bringing a horse back to racing after an extended layoff? Not trying to add fuel to the fire, just curious where everyone's comfort zones lie.


Yes. It's not the experience of the trainer.
It's not the fact the horse was off for multiple years. (Da Hoss ring a bell?)
It's the fact that this is a former broodmare who has been off the track for most of her life now, and has been through many pregnancies as well, AND is now into double digit age.
Most of the time you won't see many horses in the double digits for age at the track. They are primarily found at lesser tracks, and are old warriors who have raced continually.
If she had taken this mare to a lesser track, they would have let her through without a murmur. She would have run up the track and that would have been it. Maybe run a couple more times, maybe not.
But she showed up at a big track, with an unusual set of circumstances behind her and all hell has broken loose because she's been off 9 years and is 12 years old now. Her owner/trainer has been in the media, and everything has been blown way out of proportion.
I am not in favor of what she is doing, but I say let her run. The trainer needs to figure this one out for herself. Namely, she will have an equine money pit on her hands, class or no class.

Bacchus
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:05 AM
Dancer / Bacchus,

I'm not going to argue with the logic behind many of your points. I completely see what you're saying and, in a perfect world, everyone could meet higher standards.

Is she crazy, nieve, inexperienced, poor, a liar, and destined to fail? I simply don't know because I don't know her. But, (and I have to chuckle just thinking about it), have you met some of the trainers at the track??? Let me just tell you, they almost all fall into some of the above categories.


I completely agree. I can't stand the thought of some of the people I know having a trainer's license or even being allowed to groom a horse. I'd like to get them all out of the horse business. (Trust me, I'm a total liberal, but I'd like to stop most humans from owning or working with animals (and becoming parents for that matter) -- but that's a different topic for a different thread.)

However, they aren't the point of this thread. They are at least smart enough to not be in a situation such as this, and I doubt they break down crying in the paddock becuase their horse was scratched. She could have avoided all of this by being honest, answering questions directly, showing some maturity for a 27-year-old, and not acting like a psycho in fairytale movieland when she talked to reporters.

I hope you are right, and I hope she can take care of this horse for the rest of its life and pay for vet bills incurred on the track and elsewhere, but I'll bet the horse ends up at a rescue with the rest of us paying its bills -- and, yes, I hope I'm wrong.

soccermom711
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:32 AM
I completely agree. I can't stand the thought of some of the people I know having a trainer's license or even being allowed to groom a horse. I'd like to get them all out of the horse business. (Trust me, I'm a total liberal, but I'd like to stop most humans from owning or working with animals (and becoming parents for that matter) -- but that's a different topic for a different thread.)

Great points and very funny. :lol: I completely, completely agree and I never made that clear. I don't approve of most of what is going on and hope it changes.

However, they aren't the point of this thread. They are at least smart enough to not be in a situation such as this, and I doubt they break down crying in the paddock becuase their horse was scratched. She could have avoided all of this by being honest, answering questions directly, showing some maturity for a 27-year-old, and not acting like a psycho in fairytale movieland when she talked to reporters.

True, she lacked composure. For the most part in the paddock, I've just seen men having temper tantrums and using alot of questionable adjectives -- very little crying.:eek: I have to fess up though and say that at one point, I felt like crying. There was the time we worked so hard to get a horse to the paddock. We loved this horse and were so excited -- he was ready -- a class horse coming back after a year lay up/time off. We went up to the paddock and he was prancing and showing off. Our jockey refused to ride. Crying, swearing.....it was all so very tempting......but I resisted the urge.:cool:

I hope you are right, and I hope she can take care of this horse for the rest of its life and pay for vet bills incurred on the track and elsewhere, but I'll bet the horse ends up at a rescue with the rest of us paying its bills -- and, yes, I hope I'm wrong.

Who knows.......no one knows. :confused: I guess I just have a soft spot for the little guy and a healthy disgust for many of the big guys. We operate on a small budget ourselves, and a very big vet bill (say $5,000 as previously mentioned by another poster) from injuries at the track or in the field would be very stressful and require difficult decisions to be made. But, if I were a horse, I'd still rather be in my barn:yes:

Glimmerglass
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:42 AM
If she had taken this mare to a lesser track, they would have let her through without a murmur. She would have run up the track and that would have been it.

Maybe run a couple more times, maybe not.

But she showed up at a big track, with an unusual set of circumstances behind her and all hell has broken loose because she's been off 9 years and is 12 years old now. Her owner/trainer has been in the media, and everything has been blown way out of proportion.

I am not in favor of what she is doing, but I say let her run. The trainer needs to figure this one out for herself. Namely, she will have an equine money pit on her hands, class or no class.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. CD accepted the entry as it was valid and I'm sure once this entry piqued the interest of some with a keen eye and made the assorted BBs it triggered this spotlight. CD, as its been cited elsewhere, via the Alex Brown groupies in particular received unwanted calls and emails from folks demanding action.

In light of Eight Belles and the black eye CD took from the media, fans, non fans and the loons they rightfully are weary of anything. Had the worst occurred in a New York minute the cries (in light of the boards already closely monitoring this) would've been "why did you let them race". So CD and Kentucky stewards pulled a move out of the LeMans playbook written by the ACO and scrutinized everything until when all else failed they simply said 'no. thanks for playing and we'll refund you on the way out'.

As Lady Counselor said this entry would've been taken at Turf Paradise without any fanfare, nary a word in the press, and I doubt so much as a couple of postings on some obscure BB after the fact.

The rub is that clearly this horse is on the radar for a lot of folks who are dead set against her being run. So I think it will be difficult for this woman to race this horse without a lot of rude comments or worse being hurled at her. (I'll sidestep the crazy and profane rant yesterday by those asserting they are in her camp.)

Regarding the right to enter the horse that depends on the laws of the respective racing board. Morally running the horse is an individual decision. This isn't Iran and with it government by the moral authority of others. If the horse is fit, passes the battery of tests, laws barring a horse of this age non-existant, the horse isn't a danger to others, and the betting public isn't in danger by have a non-competitive entry ... then saying "no you can't run" is hard to swallow if you respect going by the rules.

Jessi P
Nov. 24, 2009, 12:09 PM
As long as the mare meets all the requirements and has an appropriately licensed trainer, LET HER RUN HER HORSE. This is a free country and the owner/trainer is completely free to do what she wants with HER HORSE. If the end result is that she makes an a$$ of herself, she went into it knowing that was a possibility. How many people make fools of themselves every week at horse shows and events?

That doesn't give anyone the right to say "you can't do that - just because we don't like it." That's not how this country works. To all the people dissing her, get over yourselves, it's a free country. We are all free to make fools of ourselves every day. The mare had the required works, a licensed trainer (and to those saying anyone can get a work without taking the horse out of it's stall, only a trainer with a close, long term relationship with the clocker can EVER do that - not likely from this apparent newbie). I don't have to agree with her every step in order to defend her right to race her horse, AS LONG AS SHE MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS THAT RACING CALLS FOR.

danceronice
Nov. 24, 2009, 12:41 PM
Dancer / Bacchus,

I'm not going to argue with the logic behind many of your points. I completely see what you're saying and, in a perfect world, everyone could meet higher standards.

Is she crazy, nieve, inexperienced, poor, a liar, and destined to fail? I simply don't know because I don't know her. But, (and I have to chuckle just thinking about it), have you met some of the trainers at the track??? Let me just tell you, they almost all fall into some of the above categories. I personally know trainers with only one horse to the guy/girl with hundreds and many in between. My problem with using these factors/character flaws to determine whether she can race her mare is that it's simply not fair. Those standards are not applied to most everyone else training/racing. If her horse is healthy and sound and she has met all the other written requirements then the rest is a mute point.

If she truly loves the horse, as she has said she does, then odds are that her mare has a better chance of being properly retired or cared for than many of the horses on the backside who are nothing more than a number. We've rescued, we've rehabbed, we've helped re-home and re-train, we've found retirement homes for OTTB's. I've seen first hand how horses that are part of big operations can easily disappear, fall by the wayside, or be euthanized rather than have surgeries or be rehabbed, regardless of the fact that the owners/trainers have the money in their bank account. I'll take a small operation any day.

I didn't say she shouldn't race the mare. I say I question the capability of someone who has behaved as she has to gague whether a horse is competitive, and her suitability to be in this as a business. If she REALLY came into it so broke and assuming she was going to win the money by betting the horse so she could trailer home, she isn't FINANCIALLY read to be an owner/trainer. How on earth is she going to give this mare a good long-term home (which normally I would say isn't a trainer's responsibility, but in this case that was the pretext under which she acquired the horse and her stated intention after bringing it back) if she can't afford a trailer ride home unless a long-odds gamble pays off? There's operating on a shoestring, as a lot of trainers do, especially at the smaller tracks where this mare likely belongs, if she belongs in the gate at all. And there's breaking down crying in the paddock because she wont' have the money for a ride home unless her horse wins. It would also help her case if she didn't tell the press she based her decision on riding the horse for dressage/pleasure and the horse 'wanting' to run. Since the mare worked decently there is probably more to it than that, but she makes herself SOUND like a clueless horse-crazy girl.

It's all well and good to have unrealistic expectations, but you can't run a business on them, unless you have the capital to cover your rear when they don't pan out.

And if she's serious, maybe she should try a smaller track where the stewards aren't worried about national attention if she's wrong.

luvs2ridewbs
Nov. 24, 2009, 12:42 PM
Just one comment about her saying she cannot afford to not race the horse- I didn't take that as I have no money to keep the horse, but as "I don't want to take the loss of shipping/entry fees for nothing." I don't think she was counting on the winnings to keep this horse. Start a racing stable, yes, she needs start up money like a lump sum. I just think she was expressing that she didn't want to take the loss in a pursuasive way. Crying poverty is a tactic used by many who are not actually poor.

Everythingbutwings
Nov. 25, 2009, 06:49 AM
All other reasons aside, double digit age just doesn't work. I seem to recall the average age of the USET horses at the Montreal Olympics was 15. Obviously not just lounging around a pasture for most of their lives but definitely double digit age. With that sort of reasoning, I'd best retire Wings from riding now, he's almost 12. :eek:

TrueColours
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:58 AM
I'm in the let the mare race and get over it camp myself.


and:


After all of this "expert" input, I am surprising myself and hoping she runs the mare and picks up a check! Armchair trainers are REALLY annoying, and comparing a horse with a human athlete in this respect is just plain CRAZY!

What about 10-year-old horses who race against 4 & 5 yos at every start?
And please don't insult me by starting the "she's been off for years and was pregnant" stuff.


Agree. 100% ...

I also believe it is in OUR minds and certainly not the horses, that they were "ridden / raced / competed" 9 YEARS ago as opposed to 9 DAYS ago or 9 WEEKS ago. Thats why I have gotten on horses that hadnt been ridden in 6-8-9 YEARS and they didnt bat an eye as the rationalization of time means nothing to them. IMO anyhow ... ;)

I cannot understand what the uproar is all about as long as she isnt taking some broken down, decrepit, unsound, unwell mare and attempting to race her and by all accounts that is 100% NOT the case here

I, too, abhor the racing of 2 year olds and the resultant "discard" mentality surrounding them once they break down. While racing a 12 year old that has had 9 years off will certainly raise some eyebrows, I wish her and the mare all the best and hope she can kick some butt, have some fun and success with her and silence the critics once and for all ...

slvrblltday
Dec. 3, 2009, 09:41 AM
In case you haven't gotten enough of this yet. I just so amazed anyone can equate racing a double digit-aged horse with a nine year layoff with the same horse competing in any other athletic discipline. Racing is the most physiologically stressful and demanding equine endeavor.

The case of Planting Time

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=3724231&blogId=352198583


Monday, January 28, 2008

Sad night at the racetrack...
Category: Life
Saturday night, January 26, 2008, a THIRTEEN year old mare named Planting Time returned off a 5 YEAR, 11 month layoff to compete at Los Alamitos Racetrack for a $2,000 claiming tag at the distance of 4 1/2 furlongs. Much to the chagrin of the fans, bettors and horse enthusiasts that were in attendance or watched this race on TVG, Planting Time broke down around the far turn and had to be euthanized after the race.

I am absolutely disgusted with all involved (owners, connections, stewards, track vet and Los Alamitos racetrack) for allowing Planting Time to compete, break down on the racetrack and meet her unfortunate and unnecessary demise. As an owner, breeder, someone who makes his living in the sport of Thoroughbred racing as well as a horse lover, I am completely shocked and revolted this barbaric act was allowed to take place.

I discussed this incident during my segment on the Mike Willman Radio Show the following day. I feel it was something that needed to be brought up so others can be informed and made aware of this unconscionable act.

The amazing thing.. She was in for a $2,000 claiming tag. Did her owners need the money THAT badly? The cost to bring her back off the layoff and train her was more than she was running for. You mean to tell me her connections could not have found her a home? WHY was this allowed to happen? In my 25+ years on the racetrack, this is far and away the most blatant example of animal cruelty I have seen.

I really believe Los Alamitos Racetrack, the State Vet, the reigning stewards, trainer Felix Gonzales and the owners of this mare should come under severe scrutiny and/or be fined and punished for this inhumane act.
2:31 AM
24 Comments
27 Kudos

Glimmerglass
Oct. 26, 2012, 12:28 AM
Another thread dug up from the grave ....

Because the horse Grand Forks was cited in this thread and in connection with another horse I'll drop it here :)

DRF: Keeneland notes 10-25-12 "12-year-old set for Friday start" (http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-notes-newsdad-searches-old-form-polytrack)


Blue Mon will be making his 65th career start, and his second at Keeneland, in the 10th race Friday as something of a novelty – he’s 12 years old. Owned and trained by Wayne Rice, the Florida-bred gelding was no factor when overmatched last week in allowance company in his local debut.

There is no age limit for horses racing in Kentucky, although the stewards can use their discretion in preventing a horse from racing if they feel it presents a potential danger. Such a situation arose at the 2009 fall meet at Churchill when a 12-year-old named Grand Forks was not permitted to run.

Care to watch? Just go to this URL to watch for free, live, the race goes off at 5:53 pm EST as the 10th race (http://equibase.com/static/entry/KEE102612USA-EQB.html#RACE10)

http://www.keeneland.com/racing/racing-live-coverage

(Blue Mon in 2012: 7 Starts going 1-4-0)

Wishing him all the best for success and return safe and sound.

halo
Oct. 26, 2012, 03:17 PM
There is absolutely no comparison between Grand Forks and Blue Mon, the same as there is absolutely no comparison between the "trainer" of Grand Forks and the trainer of Blue Mon (7 starts this year, with a win a 4 seconds), Wayne Rice (58 wins lifetime with over $1.5 million in earnings).

Glimmerglass
Oct. 26, 2012, 03:32 PM
There is absolutely no comparison between Grand Forks and Blue Mon, the same as there is absolutely no comparison between the "trainer" of Grand Forks and the trainer of Blue Mon (7 starts this year, with a win a 4 seconds), Wayne Rice (58 wins lifetime with over $1.5 million in earnings).

Easy now. The DRF cited both horses because each was/is of an age that makes their participation in racing on a Kentucky track subjective to stewards. Nobody - myself included - suggested the two horses or their connections had anything else in common.