List of Breeds and Sires for CDE horses

[DancingAppy]

I was just wondering, to satisfy my own curiosity, is there a list, like the WBFSH, for Combined Driving?

I'm thinking probably not, but doesn't hurt to ask. As someone who loves researching bloodlines, it would be nice to see which bloodlines or breeds do the best in CDE. I have a very good idea of what breeds do well in America, but not in other countries.

Thanks

[Thomas_1]

which classes?

[MySparrow]

Actually I'd very much like to consider such a list as well. I was able to afford my good mare Talisman seven years ago because she had a hebanema just above the coronet on her near fore. It was a gamble. She spent a year in equipak and has been carefully managed ever since, and is a magnificent driving horse, a light and powerful dressage partner, a joyful trail explorer and a beloved friend.

But I have always known that we would have to deal sooner or later with that old sore and its scar tissue. Now she is beginning to show signs that it bothers her sometimes. And I am thinking, for the first time, that I might breed my own horse rather than buying or otherwise acquiring a youngster. So I have begun to think about what kind of sire to choose to augment her characteristics and abilities.

Don't mean to hijack your thread, Danciing Appy! But since Tal is half App -- a Hayes Roman Cloud granddaughter -- perhaps you won't mind. The other half is TB/Percheron (Charlie Degas). Since driving is very much in my future, I'd want a sire for good driving capability as well as everything else (of course!).

Any such list exist? Or do we just need to comb through driving magazines and websites looking for stallions?

[goodhors]

Like Thomas said, what kind of Driving, classes, CDE, fun driving? Each type could use a variety of horse body types, to be successful.

We want a Sporthorse type body, since our horses are not just Driving animals. This gets us into less "breed style" type animals with our breed choices in our crosses.

I know of no such listing of families of Driving horses beyond Standardbreds, and speed is their criteria for success.

A number of stallions do get shown in driving, do well. They may be what you like to look at, or could be a very peculiar cross with your present animal. We tend to dig a bit deeper in stallion hunting, want to know about the true animal, because he will probably be passing some of his brain, thinking, along to his get. A stallion who is drivable, is more likely to have foals grow into driving horses. Like a good jumping stallion, usually sires good jumping get.

An animal who is very accepting, easily trainable, is desirable for siring foals like himself. Breeders hunt for the wanted traits, try to get the good traits passed along. Of course breeding is a real toss of the dice, you may get an animal far different from what you wanted. That is one of my husband's criteria in selecting a stallion. Look at ALL the worst in both mare and stallion, make a list, and then picture the foal with all those BAD features. Could you live with that foal? If not, don't breed to that stallion. If yes, then you breed to him. There is ALWAYS the possibility of getting ALL those bad features in the foal, though it luckily is not often. He has seen some of the bad results though, so you need to keep that in mind.

Another thing to think on, is taking two totally different body types, and crossing them. Have seen that too, where folks cross gaited breeds, when each breed has much different gaits! One walks or trots, while the other does unique gaits. Foal then was just badly gaited, with neither good side qualities, very odd bodies. Others cross flat movers with high-action movers, what do they REALLY expect to happen in foal's action?? Really long necks and short necks, seldom do you get a beautiful neck in that cross. Breed bodies are developed for their breed specialties, crossing them does not mean you will get the best of both when styles are so far apart. Similar breed styles in build and movement will usually cross better, because their types and movement is nearer alike.

Looking at old magazines, show reports, will name horses, breeds who have done well in CDE. In the early days I think there was more breed variety. As time passes, the choices have narrowed with winners making competitors look at those breeds to see why they win. Some is size, body style to produce the gaits desired, speed on Marathon. People tend to choose animals they feel can win with. Competitors at upper levels, especially the Multiples, tend to have rather similar types of working animals, though breeds may vary a bit.

Singles, Pairs, still have more variety in choices, especially at the lower levels. Many are what I would call "atypical" or not the highest example of their breeds. Good to excellent horses, but not always their breed's ring style. Other breeds, the body type is just what the CDE demands want, horse is a fine example of his breed.

Pleasure Driving may be more narrow, with rules telling you the desireable style horse for each class. A good Gig horse is not what would be the best choice in a Runabout class. Still, both animals drive well, so YOU need to choose what you like best or suits your vehicles.

Among other features in a good horse, is a kindly disposition! In a driving horse I find dispostion to be extremely important, because it makes driving lots more fun. Hard to rate that on a breeding stallion, unless there are a number of produce around to check out, see if they are kindly. Stallions are not mares and geldings, so these little things can be hard to quantify in your choices to use with your good mare.

I expect to see more Dutch Harness Horses coming out to play in the future. With the infusion of stallions available, foals should be reaching working age to be seen pretty quick. Gavin Robeson has a set of four, they look very nice! Other folks have got them out at upper levels too. Being lighter bodied, they may be more able to do heat, have the speed needed to make good times. They certainly can do Dressage! Just another breed to add to the choices!! The stallions are being crossed with ALL KINDS of mares, so lots of young ones coming along to consider for driving.

I make lists, helps me see the choices, good and bad in my considerations of horses. Color and markings are on my lists, with plainer color, dark horses desired. Then I can narrow those choices still more to reach a final decision in stallions. We choose among a final 4-5. Not easy, body balance, with video of gaits being a big consideration to us. Husband is the final arbiter because of his better "eyes" from looking at many more horses than I do. I like all the choices I present him with, so this works for us. These are what WE want in our horses. It will let us have salable riding horses with good gaits to use in other disciplines, if they don't drive to our standards.

[CDE Driver]

The OP asked about Combined Driving. I would assume since she referred to the WBFSH that she is interested in World Championship level competitors.

[DancingAppy]

Thank you CDEDriver, I think you know what I'm getting at since you're looking at breeding your mare (or is she already bred??)

The WBFSH lists both the registries and sires in order of most winning horses for eventing, show-jumping and dressage at the FEI level.
http://www.wbfsh.org/?GB

The nice thing about the lists is you get to see what's really winning. I was shocked and thrilled to see Wanderer still on the list for Dressage horses, or that Diamant de Semilly by passed his sire in rankings.

What I'm interested in is a similar list but for Combined Driving. What are the sires with the most winning get at FEI level Combined Driving? What are the registries with the most winning horses at FEI level Combined Driving?

And MySparrow, I don't mind at all, esp if it is a Half-Appaloosa. I drive a 1/2 Appaloosa, 1/4 Hanoverian, 1/4 Thoroughbred. (Yes CDEDriver, she's been driving for almost year now! :D) I love driving her, she's soft and very, very forward, and I want to keep that. I've been thinking of putting her to a Holsteiner, Hanoverian or Selle Francais (or combo of those) when she's older.

MySparrow, you may want to look into this guy:
http://www.spottedsporthorses.com/index.php?id=14 He's a Knabstrupper, but has been crossed with a Stonewall Sporthorse (App/Perch/TB cross and bred with driving in mind) and that filly is a looker. If I had what they are asking for her, I would buy her as a driving prospect. But I don't know if you want to chance getting spots (I know some people just don't want them)...

[Thomas_1]

We also need to know does she mean Ponies or horses, singles or a multiple combination.

[MySparrow]

MySparrow, you may want to look into this guy:
http://www.spottedsporthorses.com/index.php?id=14 He's a Knabstrupper, but has been crossed with a Stonewall Sporthorse (App/Perch/TB cross and bred with driving in mind) and that filly is a looker. If I had what they are asking for her, I would buy her as a driving prospect. But I don't know if you want to chance getting spots (I know some people just don't want them)...


He's a beauty! I don't mind spots a bit. Tal's only show in the summer when her coat thins. Her skin is very spotty indeed, but her hair coat is white. I've not heard of Stonewall Sporthorses before. Shall have to do some research.

Interesting discussion -- thanks all!

[DancingAppy]

Thomas_1 We also need to know does she mean Ponies or horses, singles or a multiple combination.

Horses in Singles, Pairs, and Team. My little statistician brain wants to compare them. See if there's similarities/differences, etc. You could throw Ponies in as well but I prefer horses that are at least my height.


He's a beauty! I don't mind spots a bit. Tal's only show in the summer when her coat thins. Her skin is very spotty indeed, but her hair coat is white. I've not heard of Stonewall Sporthorses before. Shall have to do some research.

Interesting discussion -- thanks all!

The Stonewall Sporthorses were bred by Michael Muir. He wanted a substantial driving horse with color, so he put Racing Appaloosa Stallions to Percheron and TB mares. He had multi-generation crosses. Surprisingly many of his horses came out very similar, easily matching for pairs. His horses were dispersed and I only know of a few left. One is a broodmare where Atlantis is.

I would look at other Knabstrupper Stallions if you want color and sporthorse build. I especially like Ravaldi and Xhogun Middelsom at Cedar Creek. They are offered through frozen semen only though. Ravadi is in Denmark and Xhogun is in England. There are also two very nice full brothers, Hussar af Independence and Helios af Independence, but I've lost track of them and where they are.

[Thomas_1]

You'll not find anything of statistical significance.

[Pendragon]

There are also two very nice full brothers, Hussar af Independence and Helios af Independence, but I've lost track of them and where they are.

Thanks for mentioning! Hussar of Independence still enjoys his life together with his half brother Pendragon of Independence in Germany at Knabstrupper Stud "of Independence".
Frozen semen of Hussar of Independence is available worldwidely.

BTW all of Hussar's foals (born in the years 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009) received high foal premiums. Best Foal of the ZfdP All Breeds Show in the U.K. was a filly by Hussar scoring an average 8.0.
I am very proud of my good boy!

Photos Hussar:
http://www.facebook.com/#/album.php?aid=7205&id=1734981339&op=6

Photos Pendragon:
http://www.facebook.com/#/album.php?aid=7204&id=1734981339&op=6

Photos foals of Hussar and Pendragon:
http://www.facebook.com/#/album.php?aid=7948&id=1734981339

Helios of Independence lives in Florida at Riversway Stables.

[Chiere]

DancingAppy and MySparrow,

Thought you might be interested to know that Mike has taken up the breeding of Stonewalls again. He bought that few spot Knab/Stonewall filly from Spotted Sport Horses and has crossed her with a Friesian. The resulting foal was a beautiful black blanketed colt that will add a baroque look to his driving horses. I believe he sold all his combined driving horses because he wanted to concentrate on Driving for the Disabled and his Access Adventure venture, so with Fandango, (the Stonewall colt with the Friesian Flair,) he may be looking more towards a colorful roadster type horse now. I don't know this for sure, just my guess. Although, Friesian crosses also do well in combined driving.

The granddam of Fandango is Stonewal Scarlette, one of the 3 or 4 horses that made the 3,000 mile journey from No Cal to Washington DC pulling a wagon with Mike aboard, in his wheel chair. It's pretty cool stuff!

I bought Stonewall Stella and Stonewall Blanche, the team who also made that journey, and love them to pieces! I lost Stella last year to colic, broke my heart. When I bought them, they were both in foal to Friesian stallions, and the resulting two fillies are beyond awesome. They are 3 now, so I have begun training them to be ridden. I'm going to send them out for driving lessons.

I've been told that Blanche and Stella are/were both World Champions in combined driving under Mike, and I would love to find those records. But I don't drive, and I'm not a member, so I don't know how I would go about doing that.

MySparrow, is your mare Roman Talisman, daughter of Maggie and granddaughter of Charlie Degas? If so, my mares are your mare's aunties as Charlie Degas is their sire, (Blanche and Stella were full sisters and a perfectly matched team.) Here's a link to All Breed Pedigree. Hope it works, it's being kinda prissy today, LOL!
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stonewall+blanche

Mike got a majority of leopards because he bred for them. (It takes leopards to get leopards.) I think they are beautiful and amazing. And heck of a good driving horse, as that was/is his goal.

If you don't mind a Stonewall, contact Mike at Access Adventure and see what he recommends.

Also, Cannon Ridge has the last Stonewall Stallion at Stud, Stonewall Maximvs. He's black with a blanket and roans more each year. Here's a link to his All Breed page. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stonewall+maximvs
As you can see, he is a great great grandson of Charlie Degas. That's far enough down the line to avoid inbreeding. Also, his sire, Stonewall Domino, a black near leopard, was the horse half of Mike's Horse Journey from Kentucky to Florida, and was a formidable driving competitor in his own right.

Hope this was useful, or at least interesting, =-) I love talking about Stonewalls!!!

[Renae]

Here is an article Rene van der Kuil wrote about Dutch Harness Horses competing at the last World's Championship for teams http://www.tuigpaarden.net/bestanden/wkvierspannen_ids25-2008.pdf unfortunatly it is in Dutch. But it says that at that competition almost half of the horses were KWPN horses, and of the KWPN horses more than half of them were Dutch Harness Horses- so about 25% of the horses at the competition were Dutch Harness Horses (the KWPN also registers the Dutch Warmblood and Gelderlander). KWPN Dutch Harness Horse stallions (or erkend Hackney Horse stallions) that sired horses that were in the competition included:
Fabricius: 11
Heineke: 4
Lorton: 4
Manno: 4
Balmoral: 4
Larix: 3
Harmonie: 2
Majesteit: 2
Orlando: 2
Waterman: 2
Allegro: 1
Cambridge Cole: 1
Cinovo: 1
Droomwals: 1
Farao: 1
Fortissimo: 1
Gelviro: 1
Harald: 1
Hovenier: 1
Jonker: 1
Joviaal: 1
Marvel: 1
Nando: 1
Opgenoort: 1
Patijn: 1
Plain’s Windfall: 1
Proloog: 1
Renovo: 1

Harmonie, Majesteit, Orlando, Gelviro, Jonker, and Opgenoort all stand in the United States now.

[CDE Driver]

Thanks Renae!

[xsuzi]

A couple of years ago, I saw a stallion named Blue Eyed Dream. He was a palomino and a warmblood and I saw him navigate a set of hazards that was an amazing shift of weight onto his hindquarters.
A while later I saw one of his daughters put to as well. She was a more chestnut palomino, a youngster, but had Daddy's bones.
If I were to breed a horse--and I thought about it--watching a stallion at work would be my first criteria

[Drive NJ]

Chiere
I met Mike many years ago at a clinic for Driving for Disabled in Maryland prior to a team being selected and sent to the Worlds for Driving for Disabled.

THIS was the competition he took his horses to, and while he did well, I don't believe he won the competition so they would not have been world champions.

That said they were very nice horses who competed successfully AND also took Mike on his journey from California to Washington DC to bring the message of Driving for Disabled. Something to be proud of for sure.