Fitting a dressage saddle to a QH back

[gettingbettereveryday]

I am currently in the process of horse shopping, and my trainer and I are looking mostly at Quarter horses for low level dressage and light trail riding. (A few sweetie-pie TBs have snuck into our list too, but we're trying for quiet, steady and confidence-building, and QHs seem to fit that description for the most part.)

I currently own two saddles: a beautiful all-purpose Duett (W) that fits my retiring horse very well but is only OK for me (for some reason, I have a heck of a time keeping my leg under me in that saddle); and a well-maintained Stubben Scandica (MW) that never fit my retiring mare and has always been a perfect, comfortably aligned fit for me.

I'm wondering what I can expect in terms of saddle fit, generally, if I do end up purchasing a QH. I know every horse is a little different, but should I expect to have to sell my beloved Stubben or is there a remote possibility that it will fit a QH back? I'm assuming the Duett will likely not be a good fit, but maybe other people have had a different experience?

I have an opportunity to consign one or both of the saddles in the run-up to Christmas, and I'm wondering if I should just take the plunge and sell them now or if I should wait and see if they'll fit the new equine partner.

Any dressage riders on QHs out there who can give me some idea of how fitting a dressage saddle to the QH back will go?

Oh, and, yes, I'm thrilled to be horse shopping! This new equine will be my Christmas/birthday/Christmas present from my husband and family for the 2009-10 gift-giving season. :D

[gettingbettereveryday]

I meant to add that I re-learned to ride as an adult on a well-used Stubben Tristan, and although a lot of people say they don't like the feel of the Stubbens, the saddles feel like "home" to me, if that makes sense. So, of course, I was heartbroken when my mutton-withered mare made using it impossible. I would love an opportunity to pull the saddle out and use it again!

[pintopiaffe]

You may well find the Stubben to work if it's a more huntery type QH.

Your leg is forward in the Duett? I'm guessing the twist is too wide--Stubbens have a very narrow twist.

We had a ranch full of QH and QHx's, and the two english saddles I used were a Courbette VSD (favorite) and a Thorowgood. Both were MW to W trees.

It is going to vary soooo greatly depending on the horse. Most are fairly wide, unless a great deal of TB blood, and then the issue is going to be low/no withers, mutton withers, or LOTS o'withers. (the Peppys we had had HUGE withers. )

I think you *could* get lucky with the Stubben, and except for the really wide guys, you might have to get another Stubben model but the Stubben XW (also called a 32 WB) might still do the trick. Unfortunately stubben's widest isn't *all* that wide. (Same with Courbette)

I personally have found the old model Wintecs (prior to 2009/2010 new models) feel quite a bit like a Stubben in the seat/twist to me. That might be an option when the horse is new as you are really deciding and if horse needs muscling up.

Good luck. It is exciting. I am a huge QH/APHA fan, for heart, work ethic and general all aroundedness. There've been a few who've moved right on up the levels too--so don't limit yourself in your mind 'just because it's a QH." :D

[harveyhorses]

I had a County that fit my very round guy and me both. But there were a lot (a lot of lots) tried. I was lucky enough to have a couple of used dealers that would let us take them on trial close by.
and yep he has the big withers too. I love me some foundation QH. :)

[cajunbelle]

I bought the horse first, not exactly the breed I set out to buy, but I'm glad.
Now I'm on the hunt for the Dressage saddle..
Good luck with your horse shopping. Here is a pic of my new QH, she's a butterball.

http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/13250/2599137790105518453S500x500Q85.jpg

[Tif_Ann]

I have a very well worn Stubben Tristan 31.5cm/wide tree that fits my QH like a glove. He's 16.2 hh and 1300 pounds though - he's the top two pictures here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/35468150159@N01/ ... Tommy fits the MW gullet in a Wintec.

My 14.3 hh pinto, who is probably built a bit more like the stocky QH type, doesn't fit the wide tree well. He's a medium gullet in the Wintec, so he needs a slightly smaller Stubben. I think the MW would probably fit him very well.

Funny thing is - same saddle, different horse, I am completely different in it. On Tommy, who the saddle fits well, I am aligned and solid but on the pinto, I feel sloppy, have trouble keeping my leg back, and the seat feels several sizes too big.

[MidlifeCrisis]

I have a QH and I ride in a Black Country Eloquence Wide Tree without a wither gusset. I made tracings, took photos and sent them to Trumbull Mountain Tack Shop (3000 miles away). The first saddle that they sent me to demo was a BC Eloquence and it fit my horse like a glove. I tried a few other saddles to convince myself that the BC was the one.
Trumbull Mountain is a joy to work with.

P.S. I started with a Duett but it never felt balanced on his back. Maybe it's because he's built downhill.

[gettingbettereveryday]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I know it really does depend on the horse, but it's nice to know that there's a remote possibility that the Stubben could work. I'm certainly open to any saddle that works for both of us though, and I'm taking note of the options presented here.

I have to say that I was never a QH fan, but as we've started shopping, I'm seeing so many beautiful horses in the breed. I tried one mare that wasn't a good fit for me (she needed a more confident rider), but she had nice gaits, a level head, a sweet personality, and she was nice to look at too. I'm very excited about the possibilities.

Cajunbelle and Tif_Ann it's great to see your respective horses. They are both lovely! If anyone else wants to post photos of their QH equine partners, I'd love to look. It's like opening the door to a whole new world for me!

Pintopiaffe, I was just pondering the twist on my Duett and wondering if that was the issue for me. I am constantly repositioning my leg so that it's more under me and at the girth. I never had that issue with the Stubben, hence my undying devotion to it. ;)

[sublimequine]

It really depends on what KINDS of QHs you're looking at. There's so much variance within the breed. It seems like the huntery QHs are narrower, and I've seen some finer reining QHs as well.

Then go to the other end of the spectrum, halter QHs, and good luck getting a saddle to fit those beasts. My mare has quite a bit of halter blood, and she's in an XW Thorowgood. In most brands, she'd need an XXW. Thorowgoods tend to run wide.

But if you're asking if there's a chance your MW Stubben will fit a QH, yes, if you head for the non-linebacker types. :lol:

[jazzrider]

My boy Jazz is a little more TB-like in build -- not as stocky as some QHs. He still needs an extra wide tree. I had an Albion SLK Ultima for him (selling it on Ebay as we speak because our dressage days are over) that I absolutely loved. I think if you're looking for generalities, it's likely you'll need a wide tree if you're buying a QH. But it really will depend on the horse.

If I were you I wouldn't do anything until the horse comes home. You may luck out and have a good fit with one of your saddles. If not, it's easier to buy something new or used when you know what you're looking to fit.

[Hampton Bay]

Just take the Stubben horse-shopping and but the horse that fits into it! Kidding of course, but it is a tempting thought.

With so much TB blood in a lot of QH's today, there really is a huge range of conformations. I have a QH that is 15.3h on a good day and is about as wide, but with huge withers. She is a wide tree in pretty much everything, XW in Wintec, but wither clearance can be an issue with the wider saddles.

There truly are some lovely QH's. My mare is very nice, and I have been told by several FEI-level trainers that she could make PSG easily (if she weren't almost 19 and prone to randomly losing her brain through her ears). A friend has one that is even more talented.

[EqTrainer]

My QH fits neatly into a Prestige 36cm tree. It's the widest twist I can stand. My next "keeper" will not be a wide tree saddle horse!

[HenryisBlaisin']

I have a small QH (old-style ranch bred) and bought a used Schleese that I had fit to his back-the biggest problem for me was finding a saddle short enough for his back and big enough for my behind, and this one works well for us both.

I also have a Wintec A/P that fits with the medium (or MW, whatever the black one is) gullet and a regular tree Collegiate cc (older one, not with the changeable gullet) that seems to fit everything, but especially QH types.

I actually have a harder time finding bits and bridles to fit-he needs a full bridle with cob size cheeks and cavesson and a pony or cob size bit. Bits are the worst-I can't find they type I want in a small enough size-dressage bits seem to bottom out at 5", which sort of works in a jointed bit (still not a perfect fit except for one double jointed that was either mislabeled or runs WAY small) but is way too big for a mullen-which he prefers.

[mypaintwattie]

As you know, it will depend on the horse. Within the QH breed there are so many conformation differences it will depend on the one you fall in love with and buy;)

My paint mare goes in a regular tree close contact saddle, semi-qh bar western saddle, and an adjustable tree thorogood dressage saddle, set slightly wider than a medium tree. And, because I'm vain and love showing her off, here is a pic of us at our halloween parade: We were dressage queens...

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt249/wattie824/DQ-1.jpg

[monstrpony]

Just take the Stubben horse-shopping and buy the horse that fits into it! Kidding of course, but it is a tempting thought.


I have a wide-body QH that I'm having western saddle fit issues with, and I read an article recently in Western Horseman that interviewed some of the top custom working-saddle makers. They said that, given that good western saddles are made to last for generations, that if your saddle doesn't fit your horse, you should get a new horse. Otherwise, you're supposed to adjust padding for fit, rather than getting a custom saddle. Different culture, that--but understandable given the history of western saddles.

My horse's back is not that hard to fit, but he has massive shoulders, so most western saddles bridge on him. A good dressage saddle, on the other hand, is a godsend as it sits behind his shoulder. The difference in his movement is stunning. I know that a 35 Duett will fit him (he was r-i-g-h-t between the 34 and 36 that I tried--just like Goldilocks), and a 33/34 Prestige. I doubt that the Stubbens would, though I haven't tried a really wide one on him. 31 just doesn't say "extra wide" to me as it does, apparently, to Stubben, but each mfgr is going to be different, so I could be wrong. I'm currently riding him in a Wintec Pro (not the new one), and he varies between the XW (white) gullet (when he's winter fat) and the W (red) when he's fit. His back has a bit of curve and the panels are a bit flat for him (my Bates CC fits him like a glove, more banana-shaped panels).

I've been tempted to try a Thorowgood on him ... alas, I just don't need to buy a saddle right now.

Anyhow, I concur with those who say that there is a wide variety in QH these days, and you may well be able to find one that fits the saddle you like. It adds another parameter to your search filter, but certainly isn't out of the question.

(my two horses are both QH types, tho I don't have papers on either. "They" say that a Wade tree western saddle fits 90% of horses; apparently I'm in the 5% at either end, between Mr. Big Shoulders and Mr. High Withers, because my Wade doesn't really fit either of them that well. My Wintec & Bates fit both horses, with the help of a fleece half-pad on Mr. Withers ... with the same gullet, when Shoulders is fit. Lots of variety in QHs).

[SPF10]

Just went through this with my daughters new QH (16th b-day present too, gotta love a kid who wants a horse instead of a car) 14.3h sweetie pie, never thought we would get a western trained horse (reining) but is doing great schooling 1st level and eventing BN/N and doing well at both. Anyway, we ended up with a wide tree Cliff Barnsby, fit both horse and rider like a glove and gave QH more shoulder movement. Found it on ebay for a good price, but I agree with others that you need the horse before you can find the correct saddle. If you buy on ebay make sure they have a return policy just in case and ask lots of questions. Good Luck and Happy shopping!

[craz4crtrs]

A lot of qh are very wide shouldered, even the old types with withers.

My Duett Largo fit our old qh well, and so did my previous Albion K2. I also had trouble with my leg with my Duett so I sold it and bought a Wintec Pro. I love it, my leg stays right where it is supposed to and it fits all my wide horses with XW gullet.

All my horses also take a full qh bar western saddle, but for the qh with withers, he needs gullet height along with shoulder width.

We still have the old qh, he's going on 29 and my daughter just got a perch/qhX. He's adorable, 5 yrs 16h and lanky at this time. The Wintec fits him well, too.

One thing to think about, the Duett is built on a hoop tree, fits mutton withered horses well. The Wintec Pro is an angled tree, so it fits all my current horses beautifully. Even though they are all wide, they have angled shoulders.

[islgrl]

My racing-bred QH wears a 32 Duett Presto and a Barnsby Luxus W. Both fit him quite well.... He is what I would consider a light QH probably because both his grandsires (Dash for Cash and John Dial Returns) have a lot of thoroughbred behind them.

[paintlady]

My 15.2 hh QH/Paint mare is foundation bred. She's got a flat back and mutton withers. With that said, I did ride her early on in a German-made Stubben Siegfried with a 32 cm gullet. It seemed to fit her well, but it was a borrowed saddle and wasn't for sale. I now have a wide tree Albion - fits her like a glove. I also have one of the new 2009 Wintec Pro dressage saddles as a spare - fits her with XW gullet plate installed. The onld Wintecs never fit her.

[see u at x]

My QH/paintX goes in a 31.5 Sommer Magnus dressage saddle and a 31.5 Stubben Lohengrin close contact saddle. She's 15h and you can kind of get an idea of what she's built like here:

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs230.snc1/7721_1223256895751_1058848026_698984_5917454_n.jpg

My 16h TB (who isn't really built like my other mare at all) also goes perfectly in the exact same dressage saddle, though my close contact saddle doesn't fit her at all:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2544/3962358757_e0a8a0f254.jpg

[juanbadcat]

Gotta love the QH! I never thought I'd own one either but I just love my boy, he's 15.3, built like a little tank (daddy was paint halter champ Mighty Awesome - recently deceased -has his own website). Anyway, my guy does it all - he's my 'combined trail' horse. So I just bought a saddle - this one for jumping but he's a wide tree in everything if that helps. I tried a Duett - comfy but not quite for me, ended up buying a used Ashley & Clarke (made in England). I've had TB's in the past and now have 2 QH/paints - the one is more appendix, 16.2 with withers and a MW tree, the other, 15.3 is your solid, downhill QH - a wide tree. Good luck, they are so sensible and just like golden retrievers.

[pintopiaffe]

Monstr, that is correct. With western saddles, the pads take the place of flocking in english saddles. You pad for the particular horse.

You do have to start with the correct basic tree shape, but beyond that, you use various types (felt, wool, new agey specialty stuff) and change out pads with the seasons and condition of the horse. It's as much art and instinct as science. ;)

[gettingbettereveryday]

I'm afraid I'm going to jinx it, but I think we may have found my horse. The vet check is next week. That's all I'm saying except he's a QH. If the outcome is good (as I'm praying it will be), there will be more to come including photos!

[gettingbettereveryday]

OK, I can officially announce that I'm the owner of an adorable near 15h chestnut QH gelding. He passed his vet check with minimal fuss this morning.

He's not perfect, but he has the temperament, the experience, and the size that I've been hoping to find. We move him to the boarding barn (that has an indoor for the winter) tomorrow.

I'll get to try the Stubben on him, but my guess is that it's going to fit perfectly. He's not a tank, but he's not a skinny-minnie either. He's juuuuust right. :)

[AZ Native]

Hey GB ! Glad to hear that you found a horse ! I have a cow/reining bred guy that I adore. You will have a ball ! The QH mind is hard to beat, especially if they have been handled/started correctly.I hope your saddle works out for you too. If not, check out the Wintec Pro Dressage. I had one and foolishly sold it and my Balance does not fit my QH, so he does not have a dressage saddle at the moment. I've heard too that they have made big improvements with the new Wintecs. I would personally go with the flocked and not the Cair if I get a new one.
I hope the situation with your mare worked out well for both of you.:)

[gettingbettereveryday]

Hey GB ! Glad to hear that you found a horse ! I have a cow/reining bred guy that I adore. You will have a ball ! The QH mind is hard to beat, especially if they have been handled/started correctly.I hope your saddle works out for you too. If not, check out the Wintec Pro Dressage. I had one and foolishly sold it and my Balance does not fit my QH, so he does not have a dressage saddle at the moment. I've heard too that they have made big improvements with the new Wintecs. I would personally go with the flocked and not the Cair if I get a new one.
I hope the situation with your mare worked out well for both of you.:)

Thanks, AZ. Would you believe it? My husband has started riding crazy little mare, and they get along quite well. She's still a brat, but now that we're not pushing her to do lateral work and other "harder" stuff and just letting her be a w/t trail pony, she's doing OK. She still has her moments (charged me in the pasture the other day and got a bucket in the face for her trouble), but she seems happier.

We're still planning on sending her out for training in the spring. I think some natural work and some desensitizing will be great for her. I'm taking my time finding the right person. Thanks again for all your help! I know not everyone gets a happy ending to a "this horse isn't the right horse for me" story, but all things considered, this is a pretty good step toward a happy ending. :)

[thatmoody]

My daughter right now is riding a bulldog type QH as a project horse and her older wintec works perfectly on him. On her older QH we have to pad the heck out of it because his withers won't fit ANYTHING (he's a bit swaybacked) but on the newer horse it's a perfect fit. I love those older wintecs (I'm not even sure what model this is - I have to find out because I want to try to find one used for her - this one is our trainer's).

[AZ Native]

Thanks, AZ. Would you believe it? My husband has started riding crazy little mare, and they get along quite well. She's still a brat, but now that we're not pushing her to do lateral work and other "harder" stuff and just letting her be a w/t trail pony, she's doing OK. She still has her moments (charged me in the pasture the other day and got a bucket in the face for her trouble), but she seems happier.

We're still planning on sending her out for training in the spring. I think some natural work and some desensitizing will be great for her. I'm taking my time finding the right person. Thanks again for all your help! I know not everyone gets a happy ending to a "this horse isn't the right horse for me" story, but all things considered, this is a pretty good step toward a happy ending. :)

It's so great to hear this ! I knew you'd make the right decisions. That is very cool that your husband is getting along with her pretty well. As I told you, you seem to have super instincts and good judgement when it comes to the horses. I'll pm you about a newer horse forum that seems pretty great for a lot of reasons. I think you would find a lot of good stuff there, and friendly people too.Not that there isn't a lot of good info here ;)

[ponyjumper4]

I'll throw this into the mix:

My one 14h QH fits an XW wintec/bates gullet and is not foundation bred. She is also short backed, and must have short tree points.

My other 14h QH that is foundation bred, fits a wide. She is longer backed than my other mare and also a little shorter. She can take longer tree points than the other.

[gettingbettereveryday]

The Stubben fits! Woohoo. Like a glove.

[jfcats]

If it's the town in NY, not AL. I have a foundation QH that is 16 h, about 1350 lbs and no withers but huge shoulders, best all around horse ever. I could have brought my saddle for you to try. Glad yours fit. I was working and bored in Owego wishing that I knew someone that could direct me somewhere to ride. Congratulations on buying a great horse.