FEI Memo

[mbm]

cross post from UDBB - no link was provided so i cant link to the original memo

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6361242#6361242

i am posting the OP here.... since there is no link i hope this is ok.

I just received this memo from the FEI. I thought you would be interested for those of you that don't get updates.

FEI STATEMENT ON HORSE WELFARE

Copenhagen (DEN), 17 November 2009





The FEI condemns all training methods and practices that are contrary to horse welfare. The welfare of the horse has always been and will always be at the core of every aspect of the Federation’s work as the international governing body for equestrian sport.



During its meeting in Copenhagen (DEN) on 15 November, the FEI Bureau had extensive discussion on the issue of hyperflexion. The FEI Bureau insists that, with immediate effect, stewards in all disciplines use the disciplinary measures available to them, such as verbal warnings and yellow warning cards *, to prevent any infringement of FEI rules.



The FEI is now engaged with World Horse Welfare, a leading international equestrian organisation, in addition to continued consultation with riders, trainers, officials and veterinarians to thoroughly research the issues. The further education of stewards will also continue to ensure that welfare issues at FEI events are dealt with promptly and professionally.



The FEI acknowledges and welcomes public opinion and will continue to ensure that the welfare of the horse, which has been central to this debate, will remain its absolute priority.





* If a rider receives two yellow warning cards within one year, he / she is automatically suspended for a period of two months immediately following the event at which the second yellow warning card was received.







Media Contact:

Malina Gueorguiev

FEI Communications

malina.gueorguiev@fei.org

+41 78 750 61 33

[SGray]

http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/home - I don't find much actual information on this site

[egontoast]

The FEI Bureau insists that, with immediate effect, stewards in all disciplines use the disciplinary measures available to them, such as verbal warnings and yellow warning cards *, to prevent any infringement of FEI rules


What's this "immediate effect " business? How is that any change from the status quo? Aren't the stewards already so authorized? :confused:

That does not give any real guidance to the stewards on this issue and puts them in a difficult position..

[MySparrow]

Interesting memo, and I'm glad you brought it here, mbm. It's kind of hard to get a fix on what they're trying to say exactly, but at least they've signalled that they're still working on it.

Curious, the connection with World Horse Welfare. Not sure what will come of that. Anyone have any direct experience with this organization?

[Thomas_1]

Yes

I'm a patron of it and have been for decades. I used to provide respite and rehabilitative care for horses in their care whilst their owners awaited prosecution.

It used to be called the International League for Protection of Horses.

Changed it's name last year.

I've posted about the organisation before and on the driving threads when I've been trying to heighten awareness to the plight of harness horses in third world countries.

[ToN Farm]

This gives a Steward a incredible amount of power. One could easily sabotage a rider they didn't like. Would the carded rider have any recourse? It's really a pretty meaningless memo, dontcha think?

[mbm]

i am not sure what to think of it.... they dont come right out and say rollkur should be carded..... on the other hand they dont say it wont either...

kinda feels like spin to me...

[JRG]

i am not sure what to think of it.... they dont come right out and say rollkur should be carded..... on the other hand they dont say it wont either...

kinda feels like spin to me...

Honestly, the above comment was the first thing I thought of when I read it.

[slc2]

Does anyone have a bull**** to english translator?

[pammy]

The FEI have copied and pasted their statement from several years ago. Nothing new and nothing will change ;)

Did somebody watch the livestream on FEITV ?

[Sonesta]

Brings to mind the character of the Governor of Texas in the play and movie "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas." "

See the video of what I mean at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mNDHTfdn1A

[Sabine]

Thomas- were you the one that stated that noone reads these boards? Implying that the internet has no power.!???
I say- to all professionals- watch out- because it does. It can take you down in a day or less. To all amateurs: it will teach you nothing- other than to be really scared- because none of this BS has anything to do with real riding /training a horse in kindness.

I applaud you though- Thomas for promoting an organization that seems to be well enough organized to grow and take a stand for the proper treatment of the horse. Mind you - I know nothing about driving horses- although I admire those that do this sport.

This will evolve much further- become a very complicated, overhead rich sport- which will make it even worse for normal folks to compete and ride in shows.

Noone can win in this....I hope someone can take down Epona...they of all deserve it.

[Kareen]

Wow, I just heard someone explode in a temper tantrum somewhere in Western Europe ;)
I currently don't see any steward giving significant problems to riders riding in abusive manner so I doubt it will happen a lot in the future. It is good to finally have a statement to the sense that hyperflexion is an unwanted technique though and I trust the power of public supervision will take effect and bring the sport back to reason so it can keep taking place without security personel to prevent it from being run over by outside parties who disapprove of what they think it is.
The cleaner the sport the less surface there is for people who strive to attack it.
So the World Horse Welfare people are the same as the ones that worked in ILPH? The ones with the broadcasts from all kinds of abusive activity? If so that is good. I liked their work and approach. Seemed like a group of dedicated and informed people with a lot of integrity.
I should ask the TVT whether they could pool to have a broader base of people involved.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas- were you the one that stated that noone reads these boards? No I never said that. I'm sure you will be able to go back and read and understand what I ACTUALLY said.

Implying that the internet has no power.!???
I say- to all professionals- watch out- because it does. It can take you down in a day or less. So you honestly believe that anonymous folks with no physical or fiscal presence or weight will bring down all professionals in a couple of days? !

Well I think you're having a laugh, but go on tell me who and when and also how?

You don't seriously think that the memo published here has originated because of COTH do you?

In your dreams!!!!! The matter has been the subject of discussion and controversy for ever!!!!

To all amateurs: it will teach you nothing- other than to be really scared- because none of this BS has anything to do with real riding /training a horse in kindness. Might be a language difficulty here because I don't understand your point at all.

I applaud you though- Thomas for promoting an organization that seems to be well enough organized to grow and take a stand for the proper treatment of the horse. Mind you - I know nothing about driving horses- although I admire those that do this sport. the ILPH or WHW don't "just" have an interest in driving horses. And indeed neither do I! But trust me they're an organisation high on knowledge, high on repute and high on gaining educated support and high on improving the situation for horses.

This will evolve much further- become a very complicated, overhead rich sport- which will make it even worse for normal folks to compete and ride in shows. Hey??? How? Why? You think it will become that because of RK????? Weird posting!

Noone can win in this....I hope someone can take down Epona...they of all deserve it. ???????

[fburton]

The memo seems mealy-mouthed to me.

[slc2]

..

[slc2]

I agree that extremism and fanaticism shuts down dialogue. It also shuts down learning.

I disagree that the bulletin boards 'shut down' qualification. There is no reason to assume that is what happened, except to gratify one's own sense of self importance and power. There is no evidence of that. I also believe qualification WILL happen. Just not right now.

I think it is overly simplistic to believe that bulletin boards are that powerful; or that the bulletin boards change anything that easily by themselves. I think occasionally, bb rants affect decision making slightly. I think the decision to table qualification was temporary, and that work is being done NOW to recreate it.

You all recall that a new score level was discussed by the organization? 58%? And you don't believe that it is being reformulated?

I do NOT believe extremism affects decision making, unless you are talking about armed guards being provided to protect riders and their horses in their homes. It shuts down dialogue, it delays decision making, it causes people to get defensive and get their backs up, it does NOT bring about ANY positive resuluts.

The FEI statement is vague. It says the FEI will enforce current rules. Current rules have not been seen in the past to stop the use of hyperflexion in the warmup.

If a horse has its tongue out for 22 seconds, I do actually believe a TD can, under the current rules, stop the rider. If he looks at the tongue, the tongue looks bluish or odd, entrapped, I think that is sufficient to stop the rider. I am not sure. But I think so.

I do NOT think it is sufficient to issue a warning card (in and of itself). The rider has to be actively and obviously whipping, spurring, etc, or the horse has to be sweated up and clearly stressed. These horses are trained in hyperflexion every day. It is not going to sweat them up, in and of itself.

I do NOT believe a TD can stop ANY rider for the horse's tongue being poked out to any degree. There needs to be some indication that something is not normal.

What happens next? The rider says woops, puts the tongue in the mouth, and rides on.

There needs to be a rule against hyperflexion specifically, I believe.

Should the TD interfere to the degree of saying, 'you cannot train your horse like that here'?

Should the trainer, if he watches a horse, and suspects the rider is concealing a lameness, for example, by walking for a long time and then cantering? Should the TD say, 'You...come over here, drop your reins and trot', and then excuse the horse that is lame?

I am just not sure. Is the TD meant to be our conscience? Our trainer? Our veterinarian?

SHOULD the TD be involved in 'shades'? Or is the TD only really there to stop bloody sides and horses horses covered in sweat? If he WERE to be in on the 'shades', would be be embroiled in lawsuits for defamation and threats himself?

I have no doubt.

Are we asking the TD to be our conscience? Our morality? Our ethics?

I believe that is what this issue is about. I am afraid that is what this is about.

People who think hyperflexion is outright abuse will not be satisfied if there is a 'hyperflexion time limit' in the warmup.

People who think hyperflexion is an incorrect method, will not be satisfied until horses with incorrect performance are penalized in the competition ring - penalized to the point that they cannot place, penalized to the point where they finish at the bottom of the class, or even to the point of being disqualified.

For what it's worth, I don't YET think hyperflexion in and of itself creates exaggerated foreleg motion(I may change that idea, my thoughts about most things including hyperflexion change over time, because I am only gradually learning anything at all substantive about it).

We have seen exaggerated foreleg motion for years, without hyperflexion. The horse has to ALSO be over-ridden. You've seen Totilas trot 'normally' in the warmup and 'exaggerated' in the competition ring. I do not feel that hyperflexion ALONE is the problem, I ALSO feel it is how the horses are ridden. They also need to be over ridden.

Keep in mind that Ravel was trained by Edward Gal, and that means he was trained most likely with hyperflexion. Those of you who feel hyperflexion is wrong, need to note that Steffen Peters took this SAME horse, retrained it to warm up loose, slightly deep and low in the neck, and proceeded to win and win and win with this horse, with a correct harmonious 'classical' performance, and without hyperflexion in the warmup.

I also think that it is not just hyperflexion and not just how the horse is ridden (over ridden).

I think the seat and position of the rider is also a factor.

In saddle seat, collection is created differently, it is by bringing the neck up and back to the rider, by placing the rider's weight back toward the haunches. The back does not need to round, the hind quarters can work out behind the horse.

Contrastingly, in dressage, we 'string the bow' - the hind quarters are brought forward and up under the horse, the back is rounded, and the forehand is 'freed', because the hind legs take a big strong step up under the body, and the hind leg joints - all of them, not just the hocks, flex and store energy and release it. The rider may make very slight position adjustments - not lean so forward, and perhaps he might move his saddle back slightly to keep the saddle off the moving shoulder. In other words, he only adjust his position and saddle to the point of reaching a 'neutral position'.

Instead of the neck being PULLED up, it is LIFTED up, by the power of the hind quarters.

I think that Anky van Grunsven and Edward Gal have both stated that they ride with their legs forward and their hips further back, to get the leg off the responsive horse.

I think it is possible, though, that the position adds to the effect, by shifting the rider's weight further back.

I would like to see in more detail, the test sheets of the horses that win with an exaggerated performance. I'd like to see the judge's comments, and the scores, in detail.

I need to be assured that the judges mark down an extended trot that is exaggerated, with the comments, 'Overly exaggerated motion', and that the seat and aids score has comments that say, 'riders leg is too forward'.

I'm not sure if there is any precedence for the latter. Judges have always given latitude to riders position - a hand slightly higher, a leg slightly forward, a somewhat backward position. Reiner Klimke often carried his hands rather high - Monica Theodorescu often pushed her shoulders rather back. I think the judges have always judged the EFFECT, not the position as much.

[MaximumChrome]

I read this memo with some trepidation. Agree with TON - steward doesn't like you, your out? And, really, how many stewards (or TDs) really understand - or want the responsibility of differentiating - between hyperflexion versus brief positioning into LDR? Or even to LDO? News flash, most TDs wouldn't really be able to differentiate.

So, we put playground monitors out on the warm up rings - at the FEI competitions only? Or will this spill over to US competitions? Who pays for it? I'll give you a hint - the average adult ammie rider, showing Training and First level - because that is where most of the US riders are! Show fees go up AGAIN.

And it doesnt' change how the horse is trained - what happens at home happens at home.

And - is it really any worse than someone riding 3rd level in a curb that really isn't ready for 1st level? Or riding in a saddle that is too tight? Or riding a horse that is permanently on low doses of bute to keep him sound?

Not advocating for RK/HF, just pointing out this could be a Pandoras box. That may solve nothing, just make this a more political, more expensive sport.

[slc2]

Maybe it doesn't change how people work at home.

Maybe it does. You ever try to warmup a horse differently at a show than you do at home? It doesn't work. There has to be a routine.

The only way to 'ban' hyperflexion from warmup is by very specifically defining an extreme beyond which the rider cannot go in warmup.

Such as, 'the rider may not position the horse anywhere on the show grounds in an extreme position. Extreme position is defined as a period of time over 2 minutes in which any part of the horse forward of the forward edge of the scapula is within 4 inches of any point of its body below or behind the same point of the scapula'.

This allows for correcting a bolt or an attempt to rear by overbending or overpositioning, but not as a 'normal' method. Riders are allowed to jerk the reins or spur the horse when he is disobedient or difficult in the warmup. They are not allowed to continue to spur or jerk the reins once the horse has been corrected, or have an ongoing tantrum on the horse. This might be similar. But it would require hyperflexion to be viewed as a correction instead of a method.

Many horses stay on show grounds between shows, and there is therefore a period of time in which the horse is on the grounds but no TD's are present.

Is such a rule wise? Practicable? A slippery slope? Not addressing serious abuse that is also going on? Expensive? Opinions vary.

I think such a rule is conceivable. I'm not sure it's wise or without serious problems.

[Equibrit]

BEFORE all you gallantly sympathetic folks blast the FEI and RK, you might give consideration to how you could enforce the change that you want. I'm not sure that it is reasonably possible.

[mbm]

i dont think it would be hard at all. you put in place guidelines based on duration, level of BTV-ness, etc. not hard at all.

so you say: (as an example) any forced and unnatural head position that is x degrees behind the vertical, x inches from the chest and held for x amount of time = yellow card.

eta:i think there should also be something about aggressive use of the hand& spurs... since that is also a part of certain riders warmup.

simple.

and honestly - it is NOT hard to tell Rollkur from deep or fdo or etc. check UDBB for examples of pics.... very easy to pick out rollkur. and if TDs are that uneducated they dont deserve to be a TD.

and not sure how this is giving the TDs any more power than they already have.... they are in effect, the show "police" that hasn't changed.

[mp]

i dont think it would be hard at all. you put in place guidelines based on duration, level of BTV-ness, etc. not hard at all.

so you say: (as an example) any forced and unnatural head position that is x degrees behind the vertical, x inches from the chest and held for x amount of time = yellow card.

eta:i think there should also be something about aggressive use of the hand& spurs... since that is also a part of certain riders warmup.

simple.

and honestly - it is NOT hard to tell Rollkur from deep or fdo or etc. check UDBB for examples of pics.... very easy to pick out rollkur. and if TDs are that uneducated they dont deserve to be a TD.

and not sure how this is giving the TDs any more power than they already have.... they are in effect, the show "police" that hasn't changed.

And the TD just gets out his/her protractor to make sure the angle is excessive and a stopwatch to prove the horse is being held there long enough.

Oh, wait ... he/she can just refer to the pics from the experts on UDDB. Problem solved!

[mbm]

come on. we have rules for all sorts of things. it isnt that hard to tell rollkur. in fact it is very easy. that was my point.

as for the pics on udbb. instead of me going and looking for pics that show how easy it is to tell the difference i just said go look there - someone already did it .... it isnt meant to be proof of anything... except that is it easy to tell rollkur from non rollkur!

i dont understand this trend for people to read the lowest most knee jerk interpretation into every post.... it really does make for people having to get more and more intense and more and more microscopic about each comment. and this tends to make everyone sound very mmm..... obsessive? cant think of the word....

[mbm]

oh! plus having the rule would probably "solve" 99.9% of the cases - which is what rules are for :)

[mp]

come on. we have rules for all sorts of things. it isnt that hard to tell rollkur. in fact it is very easy. that was my point.

as for the pics on udbb. instead of me going and looking for pics that show how easy it is to tell the difference i just said go look there - someone already did it .... it isnt meant to be proof of anything... except that is it easy to tell rollkur from non rollkur!

i dont understand this trend for people to read the lowest most knee jerk interpretation into every post.... it really does make for people having to get more and more intense and more and more microscopic about each comment. and this tends to make everyone sound very mmm..... obsessive? cant think of the word....

I don't know what word you're looking for, but here's one that describes your ideas on how to enforce the rule(s) you want to make:

simplistic.

[mbm]

sure, it is simplistic - i am no lawyer. however, we have rules for many many many things.... so i cant see how having a rule about something so apparent and obvious as rollkur would be difficult to draw up and difficult to police.


like i said - once there is such a rule the fact that it exists will do the work and 99.9% of instances will cease.

and that is just common sense.

[mp]

sure, it is simplistic

I'm so glad we agree. But perhaps you should look up the definition.

[mbm]

Simplistic:
"tending to oversimplify, especially by avoiding or ignoring complexities"

again, i am no lawyer - so what i post will be simplistic because i don't know the complexities.

doesnt mean that creating a rule is impossible. it just means i dont know enough to know how to do it.

seems to me there are very good pointers or markers that = roll kur and those could be listed:

ie duration of time.
degree of over bending
degree of pulling and spuring
etc

sorry eta: kinda like porn: you know it when you see it.

[S A McKee]

I read this memo with some trepidation. Agree with TON - steward doesn't like you, your out? And, really, how many stewards (or TDs) really understand - or want the responsibility of differentiating - between hyperflexion versus brief positioning into LDR? Or even to LDO? News flash, most TDs wouldn't really be able to differentiate.


USEF has had a warning card system for years.
And the rule is sufficiently vague to allow warnings for almost anything.

"A Warning Card may be issued by a Steward, Technical Delegate, Federation Representative, or Competition Official ..to any competitor, spectator or participant for improper conduct, or for noncompliance with the rules, provided the issuer considers the conduct not severe enough to cause the issuer to file formal Charges pursuant to GR604."

3 cards within 12 months and you get charged or pay a fine.

[mp]

Simplistic:
"tending to oversimplify, especially by avoiding or ignoring complexities"



Bingo!

[slc2]

Equibrit: "It's not enforceable"

A rule could be created, but it would have to have a set, measurable definition in the rule, and it would have to prohibit an extreme, not a minor position.

It is not impossible to make specific rules and laws. The law is changing all the time. People pass the laws they want.

It is enforceable in the warmup when the TD's are present. The TD's can measure how far the horse's chin is from his chest. If we can tell how long a pig is within a half and inch, we can get a fair eye for what is hyperflexion, if a rule is specific.

[Zevida]

I don't see at all how the rule on rollkur is any different than any of our other rules on abuse. There is a difference between using a whip in correction and using a whip in abuse. And it is not usually hard to figure it out. There is no need to put degrees and angles in the rule books. We train our TDs and judges to follow the rules and use their best judgement.

There is a difference between a horse momentarily ducking behind the bridle and a rider holding the horse's nose to his chest for minutes at a time.

[slc2]

But here's the problem. You assume that positioning a horse with his chin close to his chest is abuse, and thereby covered by existing rules on abuse. Obviously, a large part of the world does not agree with you. That's where the need for a specific definition with 'angles' comes in. The FEI just makes a rule that one can't ride that way. This avoids the issue of whether it's abuse or not. It just isn't a technique that is allowed in the warmup.

Whether the rule exists to keep nut cases from threatening riders and their horses, or to avoid having cruelty agencies taking over the FEI, or because it causes long term damage or whatever. None of that has to be agreed upon or determined. You just can't ride that way in the warmup, that's all, like you can't ride in the warmup with a hood on the horse, or ribbons. It's just a rule.

[Kyzteke]

So you honestly believe that anonymous folks with no physical or fiscal presence or weight will bring down all professionals in a couple of days? !

Well I think you're having a laugh, but go on tell me who and when and also how?

You don't seriously think that the memo published here has originated because of COTH do you?


Actually Thomas 1, I think it may have had to do with the original "Blue Tongue" video posted on YouTube.

It's had almost 100,000 views already and still climbing. 100,000!

You can bet if even 1/10th of the viewers who saw it complained to FEI, that organization would definitely pay attention.

Don't ever underestimate the power of the little guy....especially if you have 10,000+ little guys all hollering at once ;)

[mbm]

Bingo!

as i said - i am no lawyer. so of course my posts on this will be simplistic.

if you think my post sucked so badly why dont you come up with an idea yourself?

[Bats79]

I don't see at all how the rule on rollkur is any different than any of our other rules on abuse. There is a difference between using a whip in correction and using a whip in abuse. And it is not usually hard to figure it out. There is no need to put degrees and angles in the rule books. We train our TDs and judges to follow the rules and use their best judgement.

There is a difference between a horse momentarily ducking behind the bridle and a rider holding the horse's nose to his chest for minutes at a time.

Good post!

No-one has banned WHIPS from the warmup arena but TD's have been trained to recognise abuse. So no- one is going to ban over bending from the warmup but hyperflexion will not be tolerated.

We all know that hyperflexion is not about suppling and softening a horse - according to SJ it is a long term process for STRENGTHENING the horse - in which case it isn't need at the competition.

Just like people who use caveletti and jumps to supple and strengthen their horses don't get to take them to a dressage show rollkur people can leave hyperflexion at home.

This will make it much easier for the TD's - if the horse accidentally slips into a hyperflexed position the rider can take it out of it before anyone even notices 10 - 20 seconds. If the rider "feels the need" :( to keep the horse hyperflexed for longer due to control issues then they risk a yellow card - and if it is control issues should the horse even be there anyway?

[mbm]

my guess is they wont.... i believe the FEI needs to take a very firm stance on this. probably wont be long til the next rollkur vid hits that stands :(

[mbm]

theo, why do keep coming back? clearly you don't like any of us - and you dont really want to talk to anyone.... so i am curious why you keep coming back....

as for Dr H. all can say is .... so?


hmmm... once again the post i responded to went Poof!!

[Fixerupper]

Actually Thomas 1, I think it may have had to do with the original "Blue Tongue" video posted on YouTube.

It's had almost 100,000 views already and still climbing. 100,000!

'United Breaks Guitars' had over 3,000,000 in 10 days

100,000...viral?...not so much

[Gaia]

Dressage JUDGING should be IMPOSSIBLE if it had to meet those criteria. It is so strange that in the arena the judges can tell to decimal numbers the exact definition of how the horse performs.

In the "warm-up" that is impossible.


It is silly, really.


/Margareta, in Sweden




Equibrit: "It's not enforceable"

A rule could be created, but it would have to have a set, measurable definition in the rule, and it would have to prohibit an extreme, not a minor position.

It is not impossible to make specific rules and laws. The law is changing all the time. People pass the laws they want.

It is enforceable in the warmup when the TD's are present. The TD's can measure how far the horse's chin is from his chest. If we can tell how long a pig is within a half and inch, we can get a fair eye for what is hyperflexion, if a rule is specific.

[fburton]

..
Wow, that was concise! ;) :D

As long as RK/HF is not declared abusive how do you think stewards can give warnings or yellow cards :confused:
Other sports have the concept of certain actions or behaviour "being against the Spirit of the Game" (cricket) and "bringing the sport into disrepute". Couldn't such a judgement be applied in this case?

[Kyzteke]

'United Breaks Guitars' had over 3,000,000 in 10 days

100,000...viral?...not so much

Again, beg to differ. This is a DRESSAGE video...not exactly a mainstream interest point.

I'm sure it didn't get as many hits as the Susan Boyle vid either, but again, that's not really my point.

So what DID suddenly prompt FEI to "start an investigation" and issue a memo (however vague & toothless)? Let's hear your theory.

I suppose it was simply a coincidence?

Maybe this all just happened out of the blue (tongue....)?

[slc2]

"A rule could be created, but it would have to have a set, measurable definition in the rule"

"It is silly, really"

It is especially silly if one doesn't think the rule should exist, doesn't think hyperflexion is wrong, doesn't think it is unkind or incorrect.

It's also silly if one thinks it can't be enforced or can't be defined.

[egontoast]

It is especially silly if one doesn't think the rule should exist, doesn't think hyperflexion is wrong, doesn't think it is unkind or incorrect.

Um , no, it's possible to think your idea is silly without being judged as above.:confused:

A rule could be created, but it would have to have a set, measurable definition in the rule, and it would have to prohibit an extreme, not a minor position.

It is not impossible to make specific rules and laws. The law is changing all the time. People pass the laws they want.

It is enforceable in the warmup when the TD's are present. The TD's can measure how far the horse's chin is from his chest. If we can tell how long a pig is within a half and inch, we can get a fair eye for what is hyperflexion, if a rule is specific.

Do you want the TD to run out with a ruler then? Shall they ride alongside with a ruler? very Silly.

As someone noted on another thread, if someone disagrees with you, you put words in their mouths and paint them in very extreme terms.

It's a discussion board. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp but people are allowed to disagree with you .

[MaximumChrome]

USEF has had a warning card system for years.
And the rule is sufficiently vague to allow warnings for almost anything.

"A Warning Card may be issued by a Steward, Technical Delegate, Federation Representative, or Competition Official ..to any competitor, spectator or participant for improper conduct, or for noncompliance with the rules, provided the issuer considers the conduct not severe enough to cause the issuer to file formal Charges pursuant to GR604."

3 cards within 12 months and you get charged or pay a fine.

I think most understand this - so why the need for a new rule? Concern would be more exacting standards for one specific training method - that very few understand. There are so many variations of positions - and in reality, very few actual RK riders.

And if we require TD to measure angle and time position - they will have to focus on one single rider and ignore all else? Or shall we have a TD assigned to each FEI rider, perhaps 10 TDs at each FEI warm up ring? I'm afraid it really isn't possible.

[mp]

as i said - i am no lawyer. so of course my posts on this will be simplistic.

if you think my post sucked so badly why dont you come up with an idea yourself?

Because I'm not the one banging the drum for another rule.

PS -- you don't need a law degree to think coherently and logically.

[MaximumChrome]

PS -- you don't need a law degree to think coherently and logically.

May I use this quote? It is wonderful!

[mp]

May I use this quote? It is wonderful!

Have at it.

[mbm]

Because I'm not the one banging the drum for another rule.

PS -- you don't need a law degree to think coherently and logically.

ok. insults are not cool. so lets not go there - k?

to *me*, it is very apparent when a horse is ridden RK - therefore it would be very easy to yellow card and or create a rule specific to rollkur if it is needed. not much logic needed there.,

[Karoline]

PS -- you don't need a law degree to think coherently and logically.[/QUOTE]

But apparently one needs to be a specialized vet to recognize that a blue tongue or a horse ridden to look like a pretzel cannot be healthy physically or mentally for the horse. All that coherence and logic flies out the window or so it seems.

[mp]

ok. insults are not cool. so lets not go there - k?

to *me*, it is very apparent when a horse is ridden RK - therefore it would be very easy to yellow card and or create a rule specific to rollkur if it is needed. not much logic needed there.,

That was not an insult. You've repeatedly said you oversimplified enforcing the rule you're advocating "because you're not a lawyer." And that's nonsense. You don't need a law degree to look at consequences and weigh them, logically and coherently.

Karoline, I'm not a fan of rollkur. But I'm even less a fan of people who want to slap a rule on top of everything they see that they don't like. Rules already exist to address the situation. And I think the real problem is they're not being enforced now. What makes you think they will be with a new rule?

[mbm]

mp - this (and others) is what i was origially responding to:

BEFORE all you gallantly sympathetic folks blast the FEI and RK, you might give consideration to how you could enforce the change that you want. I'm not sure that it is reasonably possible.

i am not saying we need a new rule. instead i was commenting that it is totally possible to create a rule that could be enforceable. then i gave some quick and dirty examples.

if the TDs are able to enforce the rules as they are - fine. if they aren't then we might need clarification so they can do their job.

and no. i did not oversimplify enforcing the rule. i created a quick and dirty example of how it might be written - period. of course there will be repercussions etc of ANY rule change (or non change) ...

and again i am not "enforcing the rule [i'm] advocating " - i am not advocating any rule change - yet .

i am happy to see what will happen with the rules we have. i might fall off my chair if the FEI actually enforced the rules that already exists.... and if they dont enforce then i may change my mind about a new rule.

[mbm]

Rules already exist to address the situation. And I think the real problem is they're not being enforced now. What makes you think they will be with a new rule?

this is also why i posted a quick and dirt example. if the FEI wont/cant enforce the rules as they are written (vague) then we might need a more crystal clear rule that allows no wiggle room.

this to me is very logical. <shrug>

[gladys]

http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/home - I don't find much actual information on this site

Directly from them. Wish there were more details on the rollkur investigation though.
http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/world-horse-welfare-background

[Nojacketrequired]

Can I play?

This "memo" is so silly, I'm hoping it was an e-memo and no trees had to die for it to be printed.

First...
The FEI condemns all training methods and practices that are contrary to horse welfare.

HAS the FEI condemned, in no uncertain terms, the use of rolkur? I know they said it should only be used by "experts", and for "short periods of time" but have those terms been defined? Until then, they don't have a leg to stand on to enforce any yellow carding that is not producing OBVIOUS signs of distress as in trouble breathing, excessive sweating, trembling and the like. You can't measure emotional/mental stress with your eyes, and these horses are conditioned at home to take whatever is dished out long before they get to a public venue.
The FEI needs to DEFINE the terms or give up and wait for PETA to do it for them.

Second...
During its meeting in Copenhagen (DEN) on 15 November, the FEI Bureau had extensive discussion on the issue of hyperflexion. The FEI Bureau insists that, with immediate effect, stewards in all disciplines use the disciplinary measures available to them, such as verbal warnings and yellow warning cards *, to prevent any infringement of FEI rules.

Again, talk, talk, talk, but no definitive answers such as , "THIS is acceptable, THIS is not.."
Obviously, if this much discussion is going on there is a problem, and obviously there is politics and money involved, otherwise this problem would have been dealt with a long time ago, one way or another.
Also, they are putting their Stewards in an untenable situation. These people are not only Stewards, they are often heavily involved in the horse industry in their countries and yes, while they are supposed to do their jobs impartially, the FEI is telling the to DO THEIR JOB whilst tying their hands.

No set rules, so when they DO card a rider for something, especially a top rider, the likelihood that they get hung out to dry is high. Anyone remember Sjef ripping a Steward in Las Vegas a new one for attempting to give Anky a Yellow Card in the Warm up? DID Anky end up getting that Yellow Card? No, she didn't. SHE was a "draw", darn it. And they "Didn't come all this way for some &*^%$ to try to give them a yellow card."

How do you think that Steward felt, trying to do his job, doing what he thought was right, getting up the guts to give one of the top riders in the world a yellow card for the good of the horse, and getting NO support? It's going to happen more, if it hasn't already. What was the Stewards reported comment during the warmup at the Kittel blue tongue thing? His wasn't the worse abuse there so they weren't doing anything?

As for the idea that Stewards will use their power do "target" people? In these big shows, I think it a lot more likely for Stewards to say NOTHING than for a Steward to make anything personal. As I said, a lot of them are professionals in other parts of the horse industry and don't want to sully their names either, as we all know how word gets around.

The FEI is now engaged with World Horse Welfare, a leading international equestrian organisation, in addition to continued consultation with riders, trainers, officials and veterinarians to thoroughly research the issues. The further education of stewards will also continue to ensure that welfare issues at FEI events are dealt with promptly and professionally.


That's great. May I suggest you do this testing without using veterinarians and riders who are actively involved in one side or the other of the arguement? And start the research NOW? Or maybe 10 years ago?
And give your Stewards, riders and trainers definite guidelines as to what is acceptable in the warm up so there is no question in anyone's mind.
Stand behind your Stewards. Goodness knows here in Canada, they've made it so tough to be and keep a Steward's license that it is hard just to find one to come to a show, much less a good Steward that can help you out with everything you need to know!

Oh, just one more......small......thing.

If you wanted to avoid all of the above you could always try...silly I know, but just give it a TRY would you???

...JUDGING BY THE FEI RULES AND TRAINING PYRAMID.

If that hadn't gone by the wayside, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
NJR

[nhwr]

what a nice memo

lacking a definitive statement but something for anyone to cling to :winkgrin: