Ahh, Dressage.

[PnkPanthr]

With all the huff that's been going on about rollkur, blue tongue and all that other stuff, I deemed it necessary to post this video to remind everyone the elegance that dressage is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3AcvnEuMw&feature=related

I love this video, and it really takes my breath away.

I also love that a lot of our old masters(Klimke, Balkehol, de Kunffy)horses were not bred for the sport. Granted some of them were, but Klaus Balkenhol's for example, many of them were retired police horses, that he had schooled and trained to the highest level of dressage(like Goldstern for example)

Although I know nothing about Ahlerick's past, I just wanted to post this video to remind us what dressage was, and what we need to get it back to. :)

[katarine]

If there's a horse and rider out there today that looks like this, they'd be winning.

So, find a way to be them.

[TheHorseProblem]

What schwung!

[slc2]

"Many of them were retired police horses"

"They weren't bred for dressage"

Boy.

OK.

Ahlerich was a Westphalian Warmblood and he most certainly was bred for dressage. He sold as a four year old for what was quite a bit of money at the time, and he came from a long, long line of top dressage horses on both sides.

At that time, however, it wasn't unusual to test a horse out at jumping as a 4 year old just to increase their marketability; some jumping was also considered good for dressage horses.

His brother Amon V was ALSO a dressage horse right up there at the top level of the sport, and he was most absolutely 'bred for dressage', as were most of the horses of that time that were competed in dressage.

Goldstern was in NO WAY a 'retired police horse'. Read Balkenhol's autobiography.

He originally had been brought in to be trained as a police horse, and like many young untrained horses was bought initially for a low price; much is made of the 'low price' paid for him but that was just initially as an untrained youngster and that was also a long time ago. His value went up with his training.

Balkenhol saw him because he trained horses for the police force. Balkenhol also rode under Will Schultheis.

Goldstern's gaits and talent were spotted right away when he was quite young and he was directed toward competing in dressage.

Your statement that 'many of the horses were retired police horses' is wrong - it's just plain wrong. Ahlerich wasn't, the only one that that was often said about was Goldstern, and that was more an avenue for picking young horses than like he was on the beat for 20 years.

In fact, very few were, because the good ones were spotted early on and directed to sport. They were breeding dressage horses back then too. They bred dressage horses and the horses Klimke and his contemporaries at the top of the sport rode were the top quality horses available.

[Ride4Life]

Watching that video made me sad for horse shows in the U.S.

If that ride had been in Germany it would have been to a packed stadium and a crowd that clapped to the music and really appreciated the beauty of it! Those stands were only half full.

Why is it that we as Americans don't get into horse shows like the Germans do?

[slc2]

Because we aren't Germans?

Because in 1910, 92 % of American people's livelihoods were connected with farming, and now, 2% are, so very few people are familiar and can relate to horses.

Because 60 years ago, when we were all moving to the suburbs, Germany was more rural. More people grew up and had parents who grew up, and even now grow up, around horses.

Years ago we had guests - two chubby little old non-riding ladies from Bulgaria. Yes I know this is not Germany. Anyhow. The two little old non riding ladies sat and watched us ride, and discussed the breeding of the horses, the way the horses were being ridden, how balanced they were, and their reactions to the rider's efforts. They discussed the temperaments of the horses and their moods. My point is that people who are around horses much of their lives, relate to them, understand them. They don't need to know ANYTHING about who the top level riders are or how a piaffe is ridden to get a 8 instead of a 5. They're familiar with horses. What is happening with the rider and horse MEANS something to them.

Basically, for most people in the US, we do not have that. We have 308 million people, 80% of them living in cities. We have 5.3 million horses(not too long ago, the US horse population was over 4 times that), give or take, and they are NOT living in cities, in fact, due to land use laws they are living further and further from cities and cities are sprawling outward. In Germany, there are 82 million people. And I think, many more horses per person, but it isn't just that. Because the land use patterns are very different in Germany. There are still more small farm landholders in Germany than the US. It's not unusual to find houses along the street, and a farm and pasture out behind the houses.

Because many people see riding sports as inaccessible to them, as for rich white people. Because riding is viewed as a snob sport for rich people, not for ordinary people.

Because riding sports are so incredibly expensive in the United States, partly due to land use laws and agricultural product prices, partly due to it not being supported by clubs as it is in France and Germany. I know very few people who can work a regular riding lesson at a riding school into an already strained budget.

Because Germany is already a place where riding sports are very popular. There are more riding schools, and more shows, and more dressage instructors, and dressage is admired as a sport at which they do well.

Because Western Riding and Quarter Horses are the most popular type of riding in the United States, and the most numerous (I think, LOL, or it sure seems they are). Most of us far prefer a trail ride, a rodeo or a cutting competition. All American sports. We invented them, doncha know.

Most of us don't know anything about dressage, don't understand it, or actively don't like it, or if we do like it at all, we think all the top riders are mean and the top levels look cruel.

It doesn't fit in with the image of the Marlboro man, riding across the range.

Lastly, and here's the death blow for dressage viewing in the US, it's seen as European.

[egontoast]

Because Western Riding and Quarter Horses are the most popular type of riding in the United States, and the most numerous (I think, LOL, or it sure seems they are). Most of us far prefer a trail ride, a rodeo or a cutting competition. All American sports. We invented them, doncha know.

Most of us don't know anything about dressage, don't understand it, or actively don't like it, or if we do like it at all, we think all the top riders are mean and the top levels look cruel.



you need help.

[winfieldfarm]

Ya know what I find so refreshing about watching this?

No tail wringing. That horse is obviously happy with his job, unlike so many big kids today whose tail go like propellers during their tests.

Happy pony...

[Pony Fixer]

Watching that video made me sad for horse shows in the U.S.

If that ride had been in Germany it would have been to a packed stadium and a crowd that clapped to the music and really appreciated the beauty of it! Those stands were only half full.

Why is it that we as Americans don't get into horse shows like the Germans do?

This was not a dressage show, it was at the Garden during a H/J show (right? this was the National?). Not surprising, then, that plenty of folks might have been shopping or in the bathroom....

[Ajierene]

In all that babble, slc2 has somewhat of a point.

The economic and industry dynamics of the United States make certain disciplines less popular in the US.

Going back to the Civil War era, there were a limited amount of people with leisure time to ride. Plantation owners were the ones with the fancy horses that would go out on their saddlebreds to survey the workers or go fox hunting. Shortly after the Civil War, industry changed and factory workers replaced some of the plantation workers. Here you now had factory workers, farmers, and the upper class. Lawyers, most doctors, and other professions requiring higher education were occupied by the wealthy.

The two basic types of horses were work horse and the recreation horse. The work horse consisted of drafts, what would later become quarter horses, paints and appaloosas, and grade horses. They worked the farms. In the city, where the factories reigned, workers walked to their jobs.

The thoroughbreds, fancy Arabians, cute Welsh ponies and other 'imported' breeds were for the rich.

Fox hunting was a leisure sport done by the wealthy. Dressage was likewise. Bronc riding grew out of the competitive nature of cowboys and did not take a fancy horse and training - just the closest wild horse that could be caught. The rodeo sports were more of a lower class kind of event.

Even though the dynamics have changed and a greater percentage of the population owns horses now, sports that are difficult to understand are considered more elite. It does not help that your average up/down instructor costs $30, but beginner dressage lessons start at $60. Dressage saddles are more expensive than others (leaving aside the Western saddles laden with silver).

I don't find it 'sad', just a part of the dynamic of the US culture. Even though American football is hard to understand - a football costs what $20 at the store? Requires only a backyard or empty field. The rules can be learned from the parents at a young age and youth league organizations mean for about $100, a kid can get a full season of coaching. Dressage is not this inexpensive.

Germany is the size of Oregon - 6 hour drive East to West and 8 hour drive North to South so even if you live on the other side of the country from a competition and want to see it....it is a weekend trip. California to NYC...not so much.

[esdressage]

So beautiful. Thank you for posting that.

I always love watching videos of Dr. Reiner Klimke's amazing rides.

[PnkPanthr]

"Many of them were retired police horses"

"They weren't bred for dressage"

Boy.

OK.

Ahlerich was a Westphalian Warmblood and he most certainly was bred for dressage. He sold as a four year old for what was quite a bit of money at the time, and he came from a long, long line of top dressage horses on both sides.

At that time, however, it wasn't unusual to test a horse out at jumping as a 4 year old just to increase their marketability; some jumping was also considered good for dressage horses.

His brother Amon V was ALSO a dressage horse right up there at the top level of the sport, and he was most absolutely 'bred for dressage', as were most of the horses of that time that were competed in dressage.

Goldstern was in NO WAY a 'retired police horse'. Read Balkenhol's autobiography.

He originally had been brought in to be trained as a police horse, and like many young untrained horses was bought initially for a low price; much is made of the 'low price' paid for him but that was just initially as an untrained youngster and that was also a long time ago. His value went up with his training.

Balkenhol saw him because he trained horses for the police force. Balkenhol also rode under Will Schultheis.

Goldstern's gaits and talent were spotted right away when he was quite young and he was directed toward competing in dressage.

Your statement that 'many of the horses were retired police horses' is wrong - it's just plain wrong. Ahlerich wasn't, the only one that that was often said about was Goldstern, and that was more an avenue for picking young horses than like he was on the beat for 20 years.

In fact, very few were, because the good ones were spotted early on and directed to sport. They were breeding dressage horses back then too. They bred dressage horses and the horses Klimke and his contemporaries at the top of the sport rode were the top quality horses available.

I am sorry you know all slc2. that was totally not the point of me posting that, but hey, if u wanna go all out, then get yourself in a tiffy all for nothing. Did u not see that I said I knew NOTHING about Ahlerichs past? I am sorry that I am NOT all knowing like you.

Please enjoy the video everyone.

[Timex]

Why aren't more people into dressage? Well, gee, the majority of the folks posting here are snippy, rude, know it alls who can be downright nasty for absolutely no good reason. As a sample f dressage riders, y'all don't do the sport any justice. Forget the economics of it, I have horses, ride dressage and teach lower level stuff. And even I can't handle the bs that some of you hurl at each other. If you manage to turn me off of the sport, what are you doing to total newbies who can't even ask an innocent question about what the sport is without being ripped to shreds? Get over yourselves. Geez.

*off my soapbox now, and will go take a gallop through the woods, where no one can criticize me except the squirrels*

[egontoast]

I am sorry you know all slc2. that was totally not the point of me posting that, but hey, if u wanna go all out, then get yourself in a tiffy all for nothing. Did u not see that I said I knew NOTHING about Ahlerichs past? I am sorry that I am NOT all knowing like you.



Don't worry about it. Anyone can pretend to be an expert on the internet.

Here's a tip. The really knowledgeable people will never need to belittle you to make a point. :cool:

[katarine]

I hope those squirrels don't Tweet!

PnkPanther, don't worry about haters and nitpickers. They don't matter in the real world.

I just say ride your best horse the best you can, and screw 'em if 'they' don't like it :)

[Thoroughbred1201]

PnkPnther, that was lovely! Albrech was so soft, relaxed, and athletic!

Like an earlier poster commented, no tail wringing, and he didn't look like he was so close to the 'edge'. What a beautiful picture.

Thanks for posting it.

[Dressage Dreamer]

One of my all time dressage heros is Col. Alois Podhajsky. I read his book, "my horses, my teachers" when I first began riding dressage and remember though of course he rode the lipizzaners he had a few that were not considered so highly, but he was able to do remarkable things. I remember one of which he called a little Dumpling, or something similar,lol. I think he was what first encourged me in dressage seeing the before and after of some of his horses. I thought, wow look what is possible! It gave ME hope :D

Of course there are so many others we admire and thanks for posting the video! I hadnt seen that one before!

[kookicat]

Lovely. :yes:

[Thoroughbred1201]

One of my all time dressage heros is Col. Alois Podhajsky. I read his book, "my horses, my teachers"

When I was a junior, my dressage trainer gave me a copy of that book, and got it signed for me (tells you how long ago that was!). My mom and I both devoured it. Wonderful.

[PnkPanthr]

Don't worry about it. Anyone can pretend to be an expert on the internet.

Here's a tip. The really knowledgeable people will never need to belittle you to make a point. :cool:

Haha I know tell me about it. Thanks though!

I wish we saw more of this in dressage today. I never tire of watching this! I think I've watched it like 5 times now. :lol:

[dbadaro]

that video was refreshing. thank you for sharing.

when did the horses of today start becoming popular? you know, the ones with the high front knees like totilas?

the horse in that video clearly enjoyed himself and his rider. no tail swishing every two seconds and he looked relaxed.

[blondmane]

I was there and have photos I took! Got to meet Dr. Klimke because I was working at Miller's retail store at the time and his training videos had just been released.What a wonderful man! I have pictures of him doing tempi changes with a dozen roses in one arm, both reins in another. It was my first exposure to dressage and I've been hooked ever since!

[dwblover]

Thank you for posting that. Just so beautiful and what I will strive for every day with my horse. I'm going to watch that over and over so I can keep the mental image for when I am riding. Blondmane you are so lucky! :D

[Superfreak2009]

Nice! The video....blew me away. :yes:

[Bluey]

I have to say that, riding in Europe in the 1960's, well over a generation ago, we just rode, we didn't especially called our riding dressage by name and with reverence, although that is what it was, dressage accepted as the normal riding everyone did.

Now, jumping was exciting and we could not wait for jumping days.
The training, that today is specified as dressage, was every day riding, clear up to the higher movements, if you and your horse were up to them.

There really was not any heightened idea of a mystical art form called dressage, that was just plain, good riding basics and taken at the higher levels to a more exacting work with your horse.

Now, we got much satisfaction then from riding our horses properly and teaching them more and more, but maybe not to the point of "dressage" being that special in itself, other than once at the higher levels and nationally and internationally.
For most riders, dressage was the kind of proper riding all did, even the jumpers.

I think that now, dressage is an end on itself, more than it ever was for many of us long ago.
That split, so much larger today with what dressage means to many, may be why we wonder about where dressage stands today, compared with long ago.

I hope these comments came thru clear, not that we didn't care about dressage or were not very happy to get to advance, just that is was the general "right" way to achieve riding proficiency.
We didn't have "equitation", or western riding, or gaited, or any such other to compare our riding with.

Guess that some of us didn't know how lucky we were.

[Ajierene]

I have to say that, riding in Europe in the 1960's, well over a generation ago, we just rode, we didn't especially called our riding dressage by name and with reverence, although that is what it was, dressage accepted as the normal riding everyone did.

You reminded me of something someone said on another thread here a bit ago. I forget if it was this forum or the hunter/jumper forum.

But what was stated was that in Europe, dressage was where people started and in the US, due to different culture, hunt seat was where people started. This was probable due to the prevalence of fox hunting and formation of the pony club and influence of George Morris, etc.

Also, yes - in Europe you have dressage, jumping and eventing.

In the US, you have hunt seat, derived from fox hunters. Western derived from Western ranch work. Saddle seat derived from plantation owners, gaited horses developed to cross terrain quickly and smoothly, and a myriad of other things.

Dressage was just one of many and probably not as popular because it is more of an 'arena' discipline where the other popular disciplines are more 'cross country'. Hopefully that was clear.

[Olga Rose]

Pure class. This just what dressage should be. He is allowing his horse to be beautiful. Not enough riders at the top do this today. Now days it's all about the "WOW -look at me" factor (and I am talking about several of the big name RIDERS, not horses) There are HOARDS of flashy, massive moving horses at the top today...too bad there are a few too many riders who think these horses have no feeling and push them to the point of crossing the line from a performance and partnership that should bring a proud tear to your eye, to one that that brings an entirely different tear to your eye. It's sad. This sport is moving in the wrong direction......

[pammy]

Pure class. This just what dressage should be. He is allowing his horse to be beautiful. Not enough riders at the top do this today. Now days it's all about the "WOW -look at me" factor (and I am talking about several of the big name RIDERS, not horses) There are HOARDS of flashy, massive moving horses at the top today...too bad there are a few too many riders who think these horses have no feeling and push them to the point of crossing the line from a performance and partnership that should bring a proud tear to your eye, to one that that brings an entirely different tear to your eye. It's sad. This sport is moving in the wrong direction......

Olga, you sound like my grandmother. Next year we have the Senior Citizen Championships at Hickstead

[Daydream Believer]

I've seen that video before but never get tired of watching it. What a lovely picture he shows us...a calm relaxed and through horse who is never behind the vertical and his poll is the highest part of his neck...yes happy and well ridden. I miss the day with top dressage horses moved "normally" like Ahlerich and not like a saddlebred gaited class or with the hind ends out behind them.

[Superfreak2009]

Olga, you sound like my grandmother. Next year we have the Senior Citizen Championships at Hickstead

It's great to hear from our more......'experienced'..........counterparts, like Olga. Based from the responses on these sorts of topics, we have both young and old showing an appreciation for "the way things were". It's nice to see.

And oh my, "My Horses, my Teachers" - another blast from the past....

[mbm]

lovely video! gosh.... watching rides that like is just mesmerizing! plus it gives me happy chills - a very very far cry from most of the top rides today - which tend to leave me cold(if i can make thru the entire test)

you all might enjoy this clip too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXEcqyoi0dw

[pammy]

Poor Steffan riding for such an audience

[Bats79]

lovely video! gosh.... watching rides that like is just mesmerizing! plus it gives me happy chills - a very very far cry from most of the top rides today - which tend to leave me cold(if i can make thru the entire test)

you all might enjoy this clip too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXEcqyoi0dw

That reminds me to upload my better version and of the Pas de trois as well.

[TheHorseProblem]

One of my all time dressage heros is Col. Alois Podhajsky. I read his book, "my horses, my teachers" when I first began riding dressage and remember though of course he rode the lipizzaners he had a few that were not considered so highly, but he was able to do remarkable things. I remember one of which he called a little Dumpling, or something similar,lol. I think he was what first encourged me in dressage seeing the before and after of some of his horses. I thought, wow look what is possible! It gave ME hope :D

Of course there are so many others we admire and thanks for posting the video! I hadnt seen that one before!

I LOVE that book. I've read it over and over. It's not in print right now, I don't think. It should be!

[esdressage]

One of my all time dressage heros is Col. Alois Podhajsky. I read his book, "my horses, my teachers" when I first began riding dressage and remember though of course he rode the lipizzaners he had a few that were not considered so highly, but he was able to do remarkable things. I remember one of which he called a little Dumpling, or something similar,lol. I think he was what first encourged me in dressage seeing the before and after of some of his horses. I thought, wow look what is possible! It gave ME hope :D

Of course there are so many others we admire and thanks for posting the video! I hadnt seen that one before!

I just ordered that book on ebay and am very excited to read it. There have been some PHENOMENAL riders in our sport over the years. Dressage can be a harmonious, beautiful thing!!!

[mbm]

That reminds me to upload my better version and of the Pas de trois as well.

do you have the tape of Biotop? the one online is really fuzzy but man - that has got to be my all time fave ride :)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

This is where I try to go..that our work is happy, that my horse becomes physically better. I know I can't aspire to doing everything correctly, there is so much to learn. But each time, I can try. And a video like that gives you the mental image and the feel you want to capture. Thank you!!!

[pammy]

do you have the tape of Biotop? the one online is really fuzzy but man - that has got to be my all time fave ride :)

This is the ultimate proof that you don't know anything about dressage. Reiner Klimke himself would disagree with you

[Bluey]

I don't think we can find anyone not agreeing that Dr Klimke was one of the greatest dressage trainers we have had.

Saying that, I don't think anyone is perfect in this world and, when looking at that video, do I dare say it, that horse was very correct in most movements, but seemed very stiff, didn't "bend around the inside leg" hardly any and in some turns he rushed, almost switching ends rather than flowing into the turn once coming into the camera, because of that stiffness.

That lack of being loose, but so very stiff all over, to me, made some of that seem mechanic, lacking expression.

At least that is the way such a very nice and otherwise correct ride would have been judged so many years ago.

Now, I am not saying the emperor has no clothes, all of us know better, just that, in that video, maybe they seem to be a little tight and hindering him?;)

Then, what do I know, I better go back under my rock now.:eek:

[slc2]

"biotop...favorite ride of all time"

"...proves you know nothing about dressage"

We seem to have some very polarized opinions here about specific horses and performances.

As for Biotop, I think of him as a difficult and yet potentially very brilliant animal. There were times when he was unbelievably difficult and Klimke wrote and discussed that in interviews very openly and frankly. I think the horse became more and more consistent and easier as he grew older, as many horses do. Ingrid Klimke competed him very successfully just before her father passed.

I do agree with Bluey that in the video, while Ahlerich looks very appealing most of the time in the video, all is not perfect, and there is some stiffness and hesitancy, even a little flatness or lack of impulsion at times. He does look tenser and stiffer there than at other times.

If I recall, in his book, Klimke said that the warmup area for that exhibition was a horrid area with pillars he had to dodge in and out of, and very poor lighting. He also mentioned several times that Ahlerich was quite nervous and hesistant during the performance.

I think people need to be careful of judging a horse so harshly based on one or a few brief videotapes. But I do think that watching carefully, one can observe in even the most appealing performance, technical shortcomings.

I don't think that's really bad. I don't think that invalidates what's being done otherwise.

We seem to have a very weird reaction to riders and horses at the top, they are either ALL BAD, or PERFECT What's wrong with us that we do that? I find it disturbing and strange. It is so overly emotional, and ignores so much visual information. I don't understand why people do this. THere is so much to learn out there, watching is the only way most of us can pick up this information. There is so much to learn, why not open up to learn it?

I think what people fail to appreciate is that Reiner Klimke had faults and errors in his riding. That is normal. Even the best have something they can improve. The REASON they are the best is that they recognize their faults and work on them tirelessly.

Too, things improve over time. The REASON things improve is that people learn from watching people like Reiner Klimke. Eventually, someone comes along and outscores him. Why? Precisely because he WAS so good, people watched and learned.

30 years ago, most people lept out of their saddles like gymnasts to get flying lead changes. Then people watched those who could do so without that, and they learned. They COPY, they LEARN, they take what the person did and they build on it. Now it is very rare to see anyone twist and leap up to make flying lead changes.

I think it's important to also see how marked the shortcomings are and to weigh them. For example, a slight loss of balance in an extended trot, a very slight lack of throughness for a moment, a dropping behind the vertical for a moment.

N F Blake took pictures of top dressage horses performing a movement 'badly', and then he took another shot of the same movement, with the same rider, often during the same test, to show the same horse performing that movement 'well'.

We have to try and remember that these animals are not robots, and that the riders are not there to create robots.

The riders are there to create a living work of art. Even the greatest art has smudges and little things one can notice. One once said that the best way to recognize a forgery of art or a signature, is that it is TOO PERFECT. LOL.

Every signature, every time a person writes it, has some variation. This is the same of even the greatest rider's performances.

We at times seem to be awfully black and white - the riders we admire can't have ANY faults, and if someone quietly points them out, the reaction is an angry 'who do you think you are, you know nothing'.

I find that disturbing and strange. One should be learning from great riders, not worshipping them blindly, but not condemning them harshly either.

Sometimes, the fault is being exaggerated, or 'picked out' of a photo of a moment, often because of a personal dislike of the rider or what's been printed about him in a magazine or said around the tack store. Sometimes, the fault is not important, it is minor, and sometimes, it is only to a minor degree or one of a number of better moments.

When faults are important, they usually occur consistently over many performances, and are associated with several OTHER faults that are related. They aren't just moments in time or moments in a video, they are consistent, and they occur with other faults.

I think to evaluate a horse and rider, at least to develop and understanding of them, rather than just worship or condemnation, it often takes much time, and watching many videos and many tests, to get a better overall picture, even watching him ride many horses. Otherwise we are judging a PICTURE or judging a VIDEO - there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we remember that.

[PnkPanthr]

"biotop...favorite ride of all time"

"...proves you know nothing about dressage"

We seem to have some very polarized opinions here about specific horses and performances.

As for Biotop, I think of him as a difficult and yet potentially very brilliant animal. There were times when he was unbelievably difficult and Klimke wrote and discussed that in interviews very openly and frankly. I think the horse became more and more consistent and easier as he grew older, as many horses do. Ingrid Klimke competed him very successfully just before her father passed.

I do agree with Bluey that in the video, while Ahlerich looks very appealing most of the time in the video, all is not perfect, and there is some stiffness and hesitancy, even a little flatness or lack of impulsion at times. He does look tenser and stiffer there than at other times.

If I recall, in his book, Klimke said that the warmup area for that exhibition was a horrid area with pillars he had to dodge in and out of, and very poor lighting. He also mentioned several times that Ahlerich was quite nervous and hesistant during the performance.

I think people need to be careful of judging a horse so harshly based on one or a few brief videotapes. But I do think that watching carefully, one can observe in even the most appealing performance, technical shortcomings.

I don't think that's really bad. I don't think that invalidates what's being done otherwise.

We seem to have a very weird reaction to riders and horses at the top, they are either ALL BAD, or PERFECT What's wrong with us that we do that? I find it disturbing and strange. It is so overly emotional, and ignores so much visual information. I don't understand why people do this. THere is so much to learn out there, watching is the only way most of us can pick up this information. There is so much to learn, why not open up to learn it?

I think what people fail to appreciate is that Reiner Klimke had faults and errors in his riding. That is normal. Even the best have something they can improve. The REASON they are the best is that they recognize their faults and work on them tirelessly.

Too, things improve over time. The REASON things improve is that people learn from watching people like Reiner Klimke. Eventually, someone comes along and outscores him. Why? Precisely because he WAS so good, people watched and learned.

30 years ago, most people lept out of their saddles like gymnasts to get flying lead changes. Then people watched those who could do so without that, and they learned. They COPY, they LEARN, they take what the person did and they build on it. Now it is very rare to see anyone twist and leap up to make flying lead changes.

I think it's important to also see how marked the shortcomings are and to weigh them. For example, a slight loss of balance in an extended trot, a very slight lack of throughness for a moment, a dropping behind the vertical for a moment.

N F Blake took pictures of top dressage horses performing a movement 'badly', and then he took another shot of the same movement, with the same rider, often during the same test, to show the same horse performing that movement 'well'.

We have to try and remember that these animals are not robots, and that the riders are not there to create robots.

The riders are there to create a living work of art. Even the greatest art has smudges and little things one can notice. One once said that the best way to recognize a forgery of art or a signature, is that it is TOO PERFECT. LOL.

Every signature, every time a person writes it, has some variation. This is the same of even the greatest rider's performances.

We at times seem to be awfully black and white - the riders we admire can't have ANY faults, and if someone quietly points them out, the reaction is an angry 'who do you think you are, you know nothing'.

I find that disturbing and strange. One should be learning from great riders, not worshipping them blindly, but not condemning them harshly either.

Sometimes, the fault is being exaggerated, or 'picked out' of a photo of a moment, often because of a personal dislike of the rider or what's been printed about him in a magazine or said around the tack store. Sometimes, the fault is not important, it is minor, and sometimes, it is only to a minor degree or one of a number of better moments.

When faults are important, they usually occur consistently over many performances, and are associated with several OTHER faults that are related. They aren't just moments in time or moments in a video, they are consistent, and they occur with other faults.

I think to evaluate a horse and rider, at least to develop and understanding of them, rather than just worship or condemnation, it often takes much time, and watching many videos and many tests, to get a better overall picture, even watching him ride many horses. Otherwise we are judging a PICTURE or judging a VIDEO - there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we remember that.

funny, this post is VERY different than that of the other one. and YES I know how to use CAPS TOO.

[fburton]

There really was not any heightened idea of a mystical art form called dressage, that was just plain, good riding basics and taken at the higher levels to a more exacting work with your horse.

Now, we got much satisfaction then from riding our horses properly and teaching them more and more, but maybe not to the point of "dressage" being that special in itself, other than once at the higher levels and nationally and internationally.
For most riders, dressage was the kind of proper riding all did, even the jumpers.

I think that now, dressage is an end on itself, more than it ever was for many of us long ago.
That split, so much larger today with what dressage means to many, may be why we wonder about where dressage stands today, compared with long ago.
Thank you for answering a question I posed a while ago.

[grayarabpony]

slc2 Ahlerich did not come from a long line of dressage horses on both sides. His sire Angelo was an ex-racehorse.

[RougeEmpire]

The infamous 75 in a row one time changes, to passage, to piaffe to extended trot with a roaring crowd and one handed none the less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0&feature=related

I don't know that their is a "Champion" rider in the world alive this say that could still pull it off....:no:

[esdressage]

The infamous 75 in a row one time changes, to passage, to piaffe to extended trot with a roaring crowd and one handed none the less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0&feature=related

I don't know that their is a "Champion" rider in the world alive this say that could still pull it off....:no:

Another one of my favorite moments. Love this :D

[Bluey]

That was very neat, thanks, I had not seen that video before.:cool:

[mbm]

This is the ultimate proof that you don't know anything about dressage. Reiner Klimke himself would disagree with you

i said it was my FAVORITE ride - i didn't say i thought it was the BEST ride of all time.

it is my favorite because of various nuances that are so apparent during this ride. i can taste it and that to me is what makes it so special and so remarkable.

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

Lets face it... To a non horse person dressage is as exciting as watching paint dry. And a vast majority of people in North America do no know enough about dressage to watch it. The aids are to subtle it looks like the horse does it on its own and just dances around to the uneducated viewer... BORING

Rodeo stuff though that's exciting :cool:!!! Everyone understands the concept of a race, or holding on until you fall off. Making it easy to cheer for. And you can get loud at a rodeo than dressage where you can only whisper and cheer at the end. Let's face it the rodeo is much more exciting and easier to follow.

To watch dressage you have to be in the loop and know what your watching. And even still (especially at the LL) I can only stand to watch several tests before I'm dozing off. We need to add some excitement if we want to get the publics attention Americans are all about good entertainment... Perhaps some airs above ground, a jump on centerline, music that isn't "classical" and has some lyrics (BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT ISNT WHAT THE SPORT IS ABOUT)

On another note... That video is brilliant! But I'm sure if I showed my friends they would think I've lost my mind.

[Olga Rose]

SLC2 makes some very good points in the short novel she wrote above. I agree with most of it. Very true we learnt a lot as riders and breeders over the years from watching horses like Ahlerich and riders like Klimke. It's only natural that we try to up the stakes and be one better than the others. We have succeeded greatly with the horses we are producing. It's a shame that most of the riders sitting at the top level can't seem to even come close to matching the skills and talent Dr. Klimke had. Too many riders at the top are too full of greed, egos and a lack of compassion for the vast number of richly talented horses we have now days(bravo to the breeders!). I am not talking about all riders of today, but many that are winning and in the spot light need to step back, get off their high horses and look at the big picture they are creating in dressage. These are the people we should all be looking UP to...they are winning, they are producing horses to the top level, but I cringe at them. I am not jealous, I admire many top level riders and cheer them on, and I feel bad for them to be associated with the overall state of the sport, thanks to a few who put winning before love of the animal.
Just my thoughts. I adore my horses way too much, to put my gain over theirs.

[egontoast]

I expect there was as much, if not more, bad, tense, unsympathetic riding in the golden days as there is now.

The difference is that only the very best examples from the ODGs so called survive from the old days whereas now we see Everything on the net. Everything .

[nomeolvides]

Ya know what I find so refreshing about watching this?

No tail wringing. That horse is obviously happy with his job, unlike so many big kids today whose tail go like propellers during their tests.

Happy pony...
People didn't seem to mind that Matine had a helicopter tail!

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

Ok, a horse that swishes its tail does not necessarily mean that the horse is tense. My horse has a tail that is constantly going, wringing whatever, and he is not tense, its just his personality. He swishes to any incoming stimulus, even when standing at the cross ties or grazing out in pasture. If he sees something, or someone approaches him, the tail starts wringing. Since riding is full of incoming stimuli, his tail is constantly going, and I am a very quiet rider.
Also, I think Edward Gal matches or exceeds Kimke in riding ability.

Have at it.

[Bluey]

Ok, a horse that swishes its tail does not necessarily mean that the horse is tense. My horse has a tail that is constantly going, wringing whatever, and he is not tense, its just his personality. He swishes to any incoming stimulus, even when standing at the cross ties or grazing out in pasture. If he sees something, or someone approaches him, the tail starts wringing. Since riding is full of incoming stimuli, his tail is constantly going, and I am a very quiet rider.
Also, I think Edward Gal matches or exceeds Kimke in riding ability.

Have at it.

I agree.
To demand quiet tails or count expressive tails as faults is what got so many in the western horse industry to block, band or cut tails, so the tails would NOT wring and cost exhibitors points.
The AQHA, when that became known, ruled against that and set representatives, judges and stewards at shows to "check tails" and if one was suspiciously "quiet", the veterinarian on hand was called to rule on it.

I think that a ringing tail will detract from a smooth performance, but the judge has to decide if the horse was showing annoyance to the aids or situation, or if that is the horse's normal way to handle it's tail.

Those questions are hard to answer.
In a way, many good performance horses have been given up because of an active tail.

Now, in roping, you really don't want a wildly ringing tail, because it may catch in the rope.
Other than there, I think we should give horses and their tails a little more leeway, not penalize unnecessarily.

[mbm]

if a horse wrings its tail at any /all outside stiumlula - my argument is that is isnt truly on the aids and submissive.... if it were it would not be paying attention to anything but its rider.

of course wringing tail usually means pain/tension /etc/

as for gal vs klimke - *snort*!

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

By outside stimuli- I mean rider's aids. I wish you could come over and ride my horse. He is not tense at all! ha ha. He's just a happy playful kinda guy. :-) I'll post a video.

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

And still, I would much rather be a rider like Edward Gal than Klimke! :-)

[mbm]

why?

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

Edward sits taller, appears more elegant, he has a better head and neck carriage :-). I also like the lower hands of Edward, Kimke also moves his hands too much, especially in the piaffe in the 1984 olympics, its inexplicable. I do prefer Klimke's feet though, nice toes in, but neither Edward nor Klimke have an ideal lower leg and foot position. Edward sticks his toes out too much for me. I like overall how Edward appears to sit deeper and move more with the horse in his hips than Klimke, although its not a fair comparison since Ahlreich is a different horse, and some horses you can sit deeper on then others. Although, I think it is a common Klimke style to sit a bit lighter, which is fine. But Edward does have a way of sitting lighter but still looking like he is sitting deeply, but maintaining that "sensitive horse" level of lightened seat. Edward sits very still with his shoulders and head, and Klimke has a lot more movement, especially in the tempis, I like how Edward stays more still.

[mbm]

okay. erm. there is more to riding that how you look. and have you watched many klimke vids or just the couple youtube ones?

the hands that you see "moving" are following the horse head - ie: forward thinking hands. the hips you see move too much are because Klimke's horses swing in the back - which produces a lot of energy/movement.

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

I have watched all of Klimke's training videos, and have read all his books. Why do you think Klimke is better than Edward Gal?

[mbm]

because of how his horses go!

they tell all ;)

[egontoast]

Why do you think Klimke is better than Edward Gal?




because of how his horses go!

they tell all ;)


I doubt even Herr Klimke would think Totilas and Gal did not deserve their scores at the German Masters.

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

Yep, if its based on how the horse's go, then Totilas and Gal win HANDS DOWN, so do Anky and Salinero, or Anky and Bonfire for that matter.

[egontoast]

Yep, if its based on how the horse's go

Well of course it is based on how they 'go". Just as in all the other disciplines.

[mbm]

egon - i have not seen the german masters.

and i absolutely 100% disagree that salinero and totilas go better than herr klimke's horses. they may get gigantic scores- but they sure as hell don't go better.

eta: there is a *reason* why klimke is a legend - and well thought of by almost everyone..... he produced well trained horses that met the rules of the game.... plus the system works on all horses, and his daughter is following in his footsteps

[nomeolvides]

Plus Klimke rode at a high level in eventing (showjumping too?) making him a master of all trades.

[slc2]

Klimke's title was Dr, not Herr. He had a law degree and in Germany, that means his title is Dr. So either 'Reiner Klimke' or 'Dr Klimke'. Or even, since no one else with the same first or last name has reached to that level of success in dressage competition, just the first or last name suffices for many fans.

Of course it's not as bad as the gal I knew who insisted he was 'Colonel Klimke', LOL. Watched too much Hogan's Heroes, I think. But the use of titles is different in Germany than America.

But people seem to go crazy the minute they watch Reiner Klimke videos. They seem to put on 'Klimke colored glasses' and lose all ability to see. Yes, he was great, and the member of a very, very small club of greats.

I think many successful riders find all the fawning and chest beating about how perfect they are, distinct embarrassments and nothing more than a necessary evil of being in the public eye.

I think many find it comical, and a sign that their adoring audience doesn't know quite as much as they think they know. As one rider I admire told me, 'I won, yay, now back home to train some more, because that sucked'. I think that's a little more how most successful riders view it.

The debate about who was 'better' is absolutely pointless. It's a matter of opinion, that's all. It's impossible for every person to view it the same way or to draw the same line between 'style' and various imperfections.

[egontoast]

Klimke's title was Dr, not Herr. He had a law degree and in Germany, that means his title is Dr. So either 'Reiner Klimke' or 'Dr Klimke'.

Um, yeah, slc, I know. I probably was the one to point that out to you back in the mists of time. I should have put quotes around it I guess because lots of people call him that just as in NA , people with Phds are sometimes called MR. or MS., even thought they have the title dr. OMG!!

By the way, I believe " Herr Doktor" is also correct.

But really slc, for someone who insists on forever calling Steffen Peters "Stephen" Peters, maybe it's a little silly?

[mbm]

But people seem to go crazy the minute they watch Reiner Klimke videos. They seem to put on 'Klimke colored glasses' and lose all ability to see. Yes, he was great, and the member of a very, very small club of greats.

.

erm. well..... i think what people are doing is appreciating what he did *well* and also seeing what didn't work so well..... but the overall work is pretty damn good - even tho bits and pieces weren't perfect.

his "work" is miles ahead of most riders today - which is why he is a legend - even to other trainers!!

[goeslikestink]

I am sorry you know all slc2. that was totally not the point of me posting that, but hey, if u wanna go all out, then get yourself in a tiffy all for nothing. Did u not see that I said I knew NOTHING about Ahlerichs past? I am sorry that I am NOT all knowing like you.

Please enjoy the video everyone.

oik pinky panther----- at least you enjoy your neddy for what he is lol
ooh and you actually have a horse plus alot of orginal commonsense

[goeslikestink]

Um, yeah, slc, I know. I probably was the one to point that out to you back in the mists of time. I should have put quotes around it I guess because lots of people call him that just as in NA , people with Phds are sometimes called MR. or MS., even thought they have the title dr. OMG!!

By the way, I believe " Herr Doktor" is also correct.

But really slc, for someone who insists on forever calling Steffen Peters "Stephen" Peters, maybe it's a little silly?

yeap you did matey - but there you go

[Thomas_1]

Klimke's title was Dr, not Herr. He had a law degree and in Germany, that means his title is Dr. So either 'Reiner Klimke' or 'Dr Klimke'. Or even, since no one else with the same first or last name has reached to that level of success in dressage competition, just the first or last name suffices for many fans.

Of course it's not as bad as the gal I knew who insisted he was 'Colonel Klimke', LOL. Watched too much Hogan's Heroes, I think. But the use of titles is different in Germany than America.

But people seem to go crazy the minute they watch Reiner Klimke videos. They seem to put on 'Klimke colored glasses' and lose all ability to see. Yes, he was great, and the member of a very, very small club of greats.

I think many successful riders find all the fawning and chest beating about how perfect they are, distinct embarrassments and nothing more than a necessary evil of being in the public eye.

I think many find it comical, and a sign that their adoring audience doesn't know quite as much as they think they know. As one rider I admire told me, 'I won, yay, now back home to train some more, because that sucked'. I think that's a little more how most successful riders view it.

The debate about who was 'better' is absolutely pointless. It's a matter of opinion, that's all. It's impossible for every person to view it the same way or to draw the same line between 'style' and various imperfections.

What an unbelievable jewel in the crown of your postings.

Made me spit my tea on the screen.

Rich pickings from the lady who had to be told and corrected about that person in the first place.

Who didn't know the difference between Asbach and Achenbach or Steffan or Stephen

I guess that's what you get when you think you only think you know your backside from your elbow :winkgrin:

[egontoast]

Herr Doktor Mr. Sir Klimke :lol: is probably my favourite dressage person of all time ( never mind all the anecdotes slc likes to trot out about all the mean things he said to people when she once audited a clinic back in the 1800s). I still like him.:)

I also think Ed Gal and Totilas are pretty amazing despite not being 100%perfect (note OMG the rather unconventional extended trot). Does that cancel out all the good stuff?

Personally , I am glad to know that no horse is perfect. How boring that would be.

Did you watch how quietly EG rides?

Compare to some other top riders raking /jabbing the spurs constantly on the horses sides. I'm not going to name them , anyone can watch the rides.

I suggest rewatching all the tests and this time just looking at the riders aids. Very interesting.

You never see that with Gal and Totilas. Maybe he should get some points for that.

For those who call it circus dressage , there is no way you could have that quality in the transitions if the horse was just doing tricks. The transitions tell the tale.

and there is no way the horse could have that quality in the transitions if it was not being ridden out to the bit, despite what herr mbm claims..

[princessfluffybritches]

Pnkpnther, you are my kind of people! I watched that video many times and it STILL gets me goose-bumpy and teary eyed.

It's a darn shame that the ones presently who set an example; who ride at the Olympic level, do no longer compete using classical training methods. The sport has gone where every other sport has gone, to a place where ethics have no importance.

As a judge, is it ethical to give a 10 for a collected movement that included the use of Rollkur to get that 10? Look what's happened to gaited-horse shows. We may get to that point in Dressage one day. Sad.

[siegi b.]

Fluffybritches - I guess you have a lot of time to resurrect these old threads.....

Some folks may even recommend getting a life.....:)

[mswillie]

I was halfway through before I looked at the date. The thread did inspire me to shoot over to ebay where I just purchased a copy of "My Horses, My Teachers".

It was this comment that made me look:

...I remember one of which he called a little Dumpling, or something similar,lol. I think he was what first encourged me in dressage seeing the before and after of some of his horses. I thought, wow look what is possible! It gave ME hope...

I have my own dumpling of a horse. Maybe I too, can be similarly inspired. :yes:

[alicen]

princessfluffybritches wrote: As a judge, is it ethical to give a 10 for a collected movement that included the use of Rollkur to get that 10?

Would it be ethical to judge anythng other than the show for which the judge was hired? Heck, I guess your judge could just observe the warm up ring and blow off the competition.

[Fixerupper]

Good grief...it's not like it's ever difficult to start a train wreck on this subject!! No need to dredge up old dreck :no:

[AZ Native]

:DI've seen that video before but never get tired of watching it. What a lovely picture he shows us...a calm relaxed and through horse who is never behind the vertical and his poll is the highest part of his neck...yes happy and well ridden. I miss the day with top dressage horses moved "normally" like Ahlerich and not like a saddlebred gaited class or with the hind ends out behind them.

Took the words right outta my mouth girlfriend ! :lol:
Very glad I bought his videos and can't wait to watch them !
OP, thanks for posting that :cool::D

[mickeydoodle]

well, not having bought a ticket for the prior train wreck, I watched this video today. I know that RK has a sacred place in the pantheon of old dead dressage gods. That being said (and it should be noted that I rode with him in a demonstration seminar ) Lots of that video show the horse unsteady in the contact, behind and above the bit, very short in the frame, tight in the back My opinion.

[mickeydoodle]

ps- if you look closely at all of the right half pass in both canter and trot, there is no bend at all, they are leg yields at best.

[Fixerupper]

choo choo

[princessfluffybritches]

well, not having bought a ticket for the prior train wreck, I watched this video today. I know that RK has a sacred place in the pantheon of old dead dressage gods. That being said (and it should be noted that I rode with him in a demonstration seminar ) Lots of that video show the horse unsteady in the contact, behind and above the bit, very short in the frame, tight in the back My opinion.

Absolutely has faults. It's not a test, it was an exhibition. And the thing that stands out most in my mind is a horse with a happy expression, flopping ears, and the look of a horse who is comfortable with his partner.

I would be dancing on clouds if I had had the honor that you had being able to ride with him.

Being that people and animals are imperfect, I place far more appreciation on the quality of the relationship between the two.

[princessfluffybritches]

Fluffybritches - I guess you have a lot of time to resurrect these old threads.....

Some folks may even recommend getting a life.....:)

Well, you're here reading it, so I guess we both need a life? :eek:

[princessfluffybritches]

princessfluffybritches wrote: As a judge, is it ethical to give a 10 for a collected movement that included the use of Rollkur to get that 10?

Would it be ethical to judge anythng other than the show for which the judge was hired? Heck, I guess your judge could just observe the warm up ring and blow off the competition.

Being a judge would mean that you've ridden or trained alot of top level horses. I would think that being the case, they, and some of us can see the difference in a horse educated in a way that lets them keep their expression and heart, and a horse trained in methods that take every bit of their individuality by submission and domination-to the point that they are just following orders.

[kdow]

Absolutely has faults. It's not a test, it was an exhibition. And the thing that stands out most in my mind is a horse with a happy expression, flopping ears, and the look of a horse who is comfortable with his partner.


I am FAR FAR FAR from being an expert, but Ahlerich did look, to me, a LOT more relaxed in general than some horses currently competitive horses. I guess one could argue that's a style thing, because he didn't give off an impression of energy ready to explode out everywhere, and maybe that's what some people are looking for, particularly in the more collected work? But to me he looked like he'd be more fun to ride. :) (Probably, of course, a whole hell of a lot of work to ride, in reality, but from the point of view of someone in the audience, I'd rather see a horse and riding combo doing something that looked somewhat enjoyable than something that looked like each step required agonizing amounts of effort.)

I have not of course, watched loads and loads of recent competition footage, just the stuff that tends to get highlighted in threads here, good or bad, so my sample is, admittedly, limited.

Anyway, one thing I did notice - the canter pirouettes - the first one did seem to sort of run out of steam part way around - which I have noticed a LOT in more recent footage I've watched, it's like the horse gets wound up and runs out of spring after about one rotation - but the second one looked much smoother and the energy level seemed to be maintained better.

Anyone who knows about such things want to comment on that and tell me which one was more correct and all of that good stuff? I was never anything like near doing canter pirouettes when I was taking lessons regularly, so I really don't know much about them. (Yes, I can read a rule book about what an 'ideal' would be, but that doesn't tell me much about understanding what is actually happening while I watch.)

[princessfluffybritches]

We may not be experts, kdow, but at least we can spot a happy relaxed horse.

I don't think I've ever seen a pirouette that I really liked, so I don't really watch them anymore, just sit thru and wait till they're over. I've always thought to myself that one full turn was enough!

[spirithorse]

It might be an exhibition, but the presentation was first class dressage.

Totilas and Gal cannot even be compared to this pair.

[kdow]

We may not be experts, kdow, but at least we can spot a happy relaxed horse.

I don't think I've ever seen a pirouette that I really liked, so I don't really watch them anymore, just sit thru and wait till they're over. I've always thought to myself that one full turn was enough!

Well, assuming the idea is to maintain an even pace/level of impulsion throughout the pirouette, it seems like having two turns is actually quite a good test, as what I've noticed most often is that the horse goes into the first turn fine - nice energy, distinct gait - and gets pretty much all the way around okay without loosing too much steam, but then in the second one it's like they just run out of 'go' and it stops being a canter-in-place and starts looking more like just picking up the feet by rote. So getting the horse to maintain the level of 'go' through both seems to be quite demanding - I imagine for the horse and the rider.

If that makes any sense?

I do seem to recall also noticing watching another older film a while ago that one of the horses had a much nicer, more regular looking pirouette over all (without the 'running out of go' problem) but the circle described by the horse's back foot was larger, so it wasn't as tight a spin. Perhaps now there's more reward for the size of the pirouette over the regularity of it? I know there is a certain amount of 'fashion' in judging, however much they try to avoid it. (That's not really a criticism - I think it's simply a fact of having something that's subjectively judged by, well, PEOPLE. We're not perfect and never will be.)

[Velvet]

Nicely forward test that deserved the scores he received. Also, to compare the older style WB with the new (Toto) is ridiculous. Can't do it. Different time, different ways of thinking about training the horse and what was en vogue.

As for the rest, sheesh. I guess I need to start swinging the dang frying pan again--or find a fruitbat. :rolleyes: I'm also ready to dump a load of mud on slc and threaten to mud wrestle her again--if we can find an audience for that. As I recall I was able to pin her 10 out of 10 times. ;)

[kdow]

Nicely forward test that deserved the scores he received. Also, to compare the older style WB with the new (Toto) is ridiculous. Can't do it. Different time, different ways of thinking about training the horse and what was en vogue.

As for the rest, sheesh. I guess I need to start swinging the dang frying pan again--or find a fruitbat. :rolleyes: I'm also ready to dump a load of mud on slc and threaten to mud wrestle her again--if we can find an audience for that. As I recall I was able to pin her 10 out of 10 times. ;)

I'm sure you're sick of all the back and forth, but can you explain about the canter pirouettes? Like what's being looked for now? The whole 'running out of steam' thing just looks weird to me, but it's not at all unusual to see, so I assume that means it's not killing their scores horribly. :)

[connieg10]

I love this video and never get tired of watching it. The video of the 1984 Olympic rides are really awesome too. What an amazing pair!

What is most inspiring about this video is how entirely relaxed Ahlerich appears. Every move this pair makes looks natural and easy. Someday I WISH I could ride 1/2 as well and form such a wonderful partnership with my horse.

[Velvet]

I'm sure you're sick of all the back and forth, but can you explain about the canter pirouettes? Like what's being looked for now? The whole 'running out of steam' thing just looks weird to me, but it's not at all unusual to see, so I assume that means it's not killing their scores horribly. :)


Which rides (videos) are we talking about when the horses run out of steam vs those that don't?

[kdow]

Which rides (videos) are we talking about when the horses run out of steam vs those that don't?

In the video this thread is about - in the first canter pirouette (starts at 3:46ish) Ahlerich starts out very strongly cantering, and ends up looking almost more like he's just picking his feet up and putting them down again. In the second canter pirouette, going the other way, the whole thing looks like it might be larger (not as tight at the center, so his back end is traveling more) but the whole thing looks more even in terms of pace/energy.

Does that make any sense?

Note that I'm not saying one or the other is right - like I said, I've never been at the point of riding them myself - just that the first type look weird to me, but I've seen it a lot in more recent competition footage. (Unfortunately I can't remember any performance in particular that I've watched and made a mental note about it.)

[princessfluffybritches]

It might be an exhibition, but the presentation was first class dressage.

Totilas and Gal cannot even be compared to this pair.

You are right on!

[princessfluffybritches]

Which rides (videos) are we talking about when the horses run out of steam vs those that don't?

What I'm getting out of these posts is that the first complete circle is nice, then after that it just flat. I think I'd rather see one really good pirouette than several rotations that deteriorate.

[Adelita]

Have to post this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw

Blu Hors Matine. Takes my breath away.

[kdow]

What I'm getting out of these posts is that the first complete circle is nice, then after that it just flat. I think I'd rather see one really good pirouette than several rotations that deteriorate.

Yeah, that's basically it. It's like a top - at first it spins nicely, but then it starts slowing down and getting wobbly. The horses don't get wobbly, but the look of the gait changes - they start to look less like someone's just picked them up mid-canter and put them down in a new place, and more like they're standing still lifting their legs up according to a pattern they've been taught, if that makes sense?

[kdow]

Have to post this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw

Blu Hors Matine. Takes my breath away.

There! The very beginning she does a canter pirouette and it keeps the same 'look' the entire time - engaged, energetic, like she's cantering and someone is picking her up and putting her down a little further over every stride. That's what I thought a 'good' canter pirouette should look like, but a lot of the ones put in by really top level horses and riders seem to go flat going around the second time. (She does seem to loose a little 'oomph' in the other ones, understandably so closer to the end especially, but never to the point of looking like she's just run out of 'go' completely like some horses do.)

[princessfluffybritches]

Have to post this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw

Blu Hors Matine. Takes my breath away.


This horse is awesome! I love the expression! I'm thinking maybe that's the secret to a good pirouette- do it in the beginning of the ride when the horse is nice and fresh. I loved the way she just flowed out of the first one-perfect tempo