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tinah
Nov. 15, 2009, 10:31 PM
Okay, my ammy status is blown. I muck out stalls, get rides on a schoolie, and occasionally work off the barn's splint of lessons. Do I mind admitting this in public? Nope, cause I believe in honesty; even if I had never outed myself and no one ever found out, I would know. Is it fair? Who cares? The rules are written the way they are for a reason.
Now on to the question: How important is my status as far as eventing? In Hunterland, it is HUGE. I can't run with the big dogs, which is okay with me. . . but I really would like, one of these days, to ride in a few events. Assuming full disclosure of my "Pro" status, when is it going to affect my ability to compete?

Janet
Nov. 15, 2009, 10:36 PM
Pretty much the only thing it will affect is the year end Eventing awards.

But you will be able to compete at any level you want in Eventing.

VicariousRider
Nov. 15, 2009, 10:59 PM
The article on this topic in the most recent issue of COTH got me thinking about this as well. I grew up riding in Hunter Land and it IS a VERY big deal there. Having spent the last 4 years in Eventing Capital, USA (Unionville, PA) it occurred to me that eventing an horse shows place very different amounts of emphasis on this rule. IMO, the rule is on the harsh side. Many ammies/juniors can't afford riding lessons without making some cash exercising boarder's horses (not to mention how important it is for the learning curve to sit on a wide array of beasts). But, on the other hand, there is something very unfair and unsportsmanlike about pros fudging their status .

What are people's thoughts?

Also, I thought that there used to be something about not deriving more than 25% of total income for horses. Was this an AHSA rule or am I just imagining things?

tinah
Nov. 15, 2009, 11:29 PM
A junior is more than welcome to make money with horses. Once you age out, you can either pay for lessons and use of a horse, or go Pro.
And really, it IS fair. I get to ride 3-5 days a week. That adds up quick when you are paying for lessons, or even leasing. This way, my money can go to gear! If I were to quit my job, I can apply for my ammy status back after a year, so it's not a forever type situation.
I'm not familiar with ASHA rules, but I do have the USEF rulebook.

Seal Harbor
Nov. 15, 2009, 11:33 PM
The USEF was the AHSA. hasn't been the AHSA for years. The USEA eventing rules were different for ammies, they no longer are.

DQ Eventer
Nov. 16, 2009, 08:14 AM
In Eventing, you can earn up to $2500 working with horses and still retain your amateur status if it is important to you, but there aren't any real benefits. A few shows a year will offer Amateur Rider divisions, which benefit the upper level amateurs more than the lower level ones. The UL ammies are permitted to compete with their peers say in an AR division at Training when otherwise they would have to compete in the Open division because they no longer qualify for the straight Rider division.

bambam
Nov. 16, 2009, 08:48 AM
Ammy status is pretty unimportant in eventing IMO.
A very small number of shows offer ammy divisions (which in my area tend to be just as competitive as every other division so not really an advantage), the leaderboard is now broken down into a ridiculous (IMO) number of subcategories for each level so you might get your name on the leaderboard faster since there is an ammy category now and there are ammy year end awards.
That is pretty much all I can think of

BlueRidgeEventer
Nov. 16, 2009, 08:52 AM
In Eventing, you can earn up to $2500 working with horses and still retain your amateur status if it is important to you

I thought they changed this this year or last year to be more in line with the other disciplines (i.e. you can't make any money working with horses or teaching and be an ammy).

scubed
Nov. 16, 2009, 09:05 AM
Correct, now can't make anything. But, I don't think it is very important. I am an adult ammy and have never applied that status to anything. Of course, I've never been qualified for any awards :lol:

JanWeber
Nov. 16, 2009, 09:07 AM
I think the point here is that being an "ammy" in eventing doesn't get you anything except a special "amateur" category in year-end awards. In larger events, most show secretaries try to separate out the pros from the local amateurs into two or more equal divisions, but it doesn't always work like that in smaller shows - you may all be grouped together.

CookiePony
Nov. 16, 2009, 09:29 AM
Also there are ammy divisions at the AECs.

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 16, 2009, 10:18 AM
I don't see too many "Pro" fudging their status in eventing. There is no gain to it. There have been some mistakes on the year end leader boards (listing a pro as an ammy etc.) but since year end awards generally don't mean that much to eventers....it just wasn't caught that quickly. A year end award is more like icing on the cake...cool if you win it but it really isn't most eventer's goal.

Also you have to be careful about judging others....I'm not a pro...I have my ammy status. I might walk a course with a rider...or help out a friend's kid at an event...but I don't let them pay me. Someone seeing me help out a rider may think I'm a pro (there would be no doubt that I am NOT a pro if they saw me ride;))....but if I'm helping someone in warm up...it is as a favor and not for compensation.

Riding in an ammy division is always my last choice when ordering my preferences on my entry. I'm often sitting on a green horse. I'd rather compete other green horses....even if they are ridden by pros....and I don't care who I am competing against (i.e. I don't get star struck or intimidated if I ride after a Pro or have to warm up with them....some of them I can beat on occassion;))

If I blew my ammy status....I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it.....it just isn't that important in eventing.

LISailing
Nov. 16, 2009, 09:26 PM
I just finished reading the article and as with most regulations, I found some sections rather conflicting and unclear. So here's my dilemma - I am a professional sooo far outside the horse world that the only thing my job has in relation to a horse is potentially the methane the occasionally produce. That being said, I work 40-50 hrs a week. My commute from my house to the office is 50 mins. and from the office to the barn 1.25 hrs. and then from the barn to the house .5 hr. As you can see I spend a lot of time in a car. I have a young horse that I see/ride 5-6days a week. Fortunately, I have an extremely understanding husband and two sons.

I have given lessons to friends children because I enjoy seeing progress and feel that I have something to offer. I don't charge, nor would I want to charge for the benefits that I personnally have gain by watching others struggle and progress. After all I am an amatuer. But, if someone saw me giving advice or helping a child ride or understand a course, I would need to defend my status.

Could I ride with the professionals? Sure, most amateurs could, but we would be at a significant disadvantage since we're not immersed in the horse world or priviledge to ride multiply horses.

So, based on the ruling I guess I will need to learn how to be a primadona or the perfect princess. Do I need to develop an attitude of it's all about me so you better begin to cater to my every need?

Please let me know how I must change to become a fully vested amatuer. I would hate to be seen freely encouraging a child with a difficult mount needing some assistance as coaching.

I know it's all about the dollar$$$$$$ Just let me rant about inconsistent, thoughtless rules that are ment to control the stupid population!!!!

Thanks for reading.:)

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 16, 2009, 09:53 PM
LISailing....I don't follow. If you have a non-horse job and don't charge for helping a kid or other rider...then you are not a pro or did they change the rule on me again?

I can say that I've never heard of anyone contesting whether someone is an ammy or not in eventing. And I know that no one has ever question me personally....of course that could be because they have seen me ride;)

But I guess it depends on if you think having an ammy status is important to you or if you would rather help a kid.....but I would be surprised if you ever had to defend your ammy status in eventing.

asterix
Nov. 16, 2009, 10:32 PM
I'm really not sure I understand the angst about this -- as others have said, it makes NO difference 99.99% of the time whether you are a pro or an ammy. I am in divisions with not just pros, but internationally successful pros ALL THE TIME. I don't see how anything about my competitive life at N, T, or P would change if I were a pro vs. an ammy.

Aside from some year-end stuff and what division you are in if you go to the AECs, it is a non-issue in eventing.

The last thing anyone thinks about if they see someone "helping" someone else at an event is whether they are a shamateur. Goodness gracious!! This is not a part of our sport at all.

I've gotten free advice while walking a course because I happened to roll up next to an Olympic veteran also walking the, er, Novice water.:D

I've given free advice to an (different) Olympic veteran in warmup because I had walked the xc course and she hadn't (that was an entertaining conversation). :eek:

It's eventing, not hunters.

Rescue_Rider9
Nov. 17, 2009, 12:20 PM
Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 17, 2009, 12:26 PM
Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?


Yes...you may still have to compete against Pros. Depends on the Organizer of the event. When you enter an event...you just list what level you are and then order your preference for divisions. But they organizer/secretary could decide to just have all open divisions.

To have an ammy division is actually very unusual. They do some times have "rider" or "horse" divisions..as well as open. This isn't an ammy/pro distinction but just based on the level that a rider has competed or a horse has competed. MOST pros will be in either open or horse divisions.

bambam
Nov. 17, 2009, 12:32 PM
Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?
Ammy does not equal rider- it is a separate possibly offered division.
Rider and horse qualifications are based, not on rider's ammy status, but on the recent experience of either the rider or the horse at levels above the level being ridden (do not remember the actual parameters off the top of my head).
Ammy is just that- only open to ammies that have declared their status as an ammy with the USEA or USEF.
Not every competition offers all 4 divisions (the 3 above plus open). If the HT only offers open and horse divisions, then you will almost certainly be riding against pros. The competition may not offer anything other than open for a lot of reasons, one of which being failure of enough people being eligible entering or putting the other options as one of their preferences on the entry form.
Riding against the pros is really not a big deal and happens all the time in eventing

Ajierene
Nov. 17, 2009, 01:19 PM
Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?

I ran against a Pro at the last unrecognized show I went to. Danny Warrington brings his young horses to Fair Hill unrecognized all the time. Jane Sleeper was at Carousel Park in August. To me, that's smart business when you are bringing along a green horse for someone else and do not need to worry about points.

Janet
Nov. 17, 2009, 02:40 PM
Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?

First, you have to understand how the entry process works in Eventing, it is very different from H/J.

FIRST -When you enter, you are only officially entering the LEVEL- BN, N, T, etc.

SECOND-Then you list the SECTIONS you are eligible for
-Jr vs Young Rider vs Sr
-"Amateur" (either a USEF amateur card or a USEA amateur notation)
-"Rider" (Rider has not comp0leted more than twice above this level in the last 24 months)
- "Horse " Horse has not completed above this level EVER
- "Young Horse"
-"Open" (EVERYONE is elegible for Open)
"Championship" (only at an event hosting a champ.)

THIRD you list your PREFERENCES among the sections you are eligible.

FOURTH the secretary decides.,on his/her own, how to structure the specific devisions. The secretaty is bound by the LEVEL you entered, and can only put you in a SECTION you are eligible for, but the PREFERENCES are only guidance. The secretary aims for royghly equal sized divisions at each level.

So even if you are eligible for "Rider" and you put "Rider" as your first preference, you could easily end up in the Open division (where you might be competing against an Olympian).

Generally speaking there are a couple of situations where someone who requested "Rider" as the first choice ends up in Open. First, if there are not enough people eligible for "Rider" to fill a division, they may all be put in "Open". Second, if there are too many people who preferred "Rider", they may shift some of them into "Open". There are other situations, but those are the most common.

You could even end up competing against an Olympian in a Rider division, if he/she has taken 2 years off.

You can also end up competing against professionals even in the "Rider" division, if they only compete at the lower levels. For instance, there are LOTS of people who are listed as "Not-Amateur" who are eligible for Training Rider.

Rescue_Rider9
Nov. 17, 2009, 02:44 PM
I think I understand a lot better now. Thank you everyone and now i see how irrelevent ammy status is. Makes me feel better about losing my ammy status is I exercises horses or what not..

Ruperman
Nov. 17, 2009, 06:41 PM
I have a friend that trains/coaches/competes in the eventing world and was listed as an amateur (she didn't make $2500/yr however). She went to a jumper show to work on that phase with her horse. She just entered a 3'6" division. It turned out it was an amateur division, but someone must have complained she made some $$ because she had a website. She returned her ribbon and was fully compliant and apologetic knowing that it was her responsibility to know the rules even when changing disciplines.

Her name was dragged through the mud in the back of the USEF magazine where she was suspended, and she learned her lesson. She has since changed everything to pro just to avoid the hassle.

Moral of the story, hunter/jumpers care, eventers do not.

poltroon
Nov. 17, 2009, 06:50 PM
To have an ammy division is actually very unusual. They do some times have "rider" or "horse" divisions..as well as open. This isn't an ammy/pro distinction but just based on the level that a rider has competed or a horse has competed. MOST pros will be in either open or horse divisions.

One of the nice things about the way that eventing does it is that the "rider" division is much more about experience in eventing. So, for example, a local rodeo cowboy is a professional horseman, but at his first event he'd be allowed in Beginner Novice Rider, while the amateur rider who jumped around Rolex last year is not. :)

ACMEeventing
Nov. 17, 2009, 08:32 PM
What about if you ride more than one discipline? I have 2 horses eventing but 1 that is straight USDF. I help out at my current barn with riding, etc, but take no payment. If you give up Ammy status in 1 area does it affect the others?

asterix
Nov. 17, 2009, 09:30 PM
I think ammy status is registered with the USEF and is not discipline-specific. It seems very important to folks in H/J, and as we've said here, it is really unimportant in eventing. No idea about dressage.

Janet
Nov. 17, 2009, 10:01 PM
I have a friend that trains/coaches/competes in the eventing world and was listed as an amateur (she didn't make $2500/yr however). She went to a jumper show to work on that phase with her horse. She just entered a 3'6" division. It turned out it was an amateur division, but someone must have complained she made some $$ because she had a website. She returned her ribbon and was fully compliant and apologetic knowing that it was her responsibility to know the rules even when changing disciplines.

Her name was dragged through the mud in the back of the USEF magazine where she was suspended, and she learned her lesson. She has since changed everything to pro just to avoid the hassle.

Moral of the story, hunter/jumpers care, eventers do not.

That is probably one of the reasons they changed the eventing rules back.

But when "eventing amateur" did permit $2500, it said VERY CLEARLY that it ONLY applied to Eventing and not to other disciplines .

Janet
Nov. 17, 2009, 10:04 PM
What about if you ride more than one discipline? I have 2 horses eventing but 1 that is straight USDF. I help out at my current barn with riding, etc, but take no payment. If you give up Ammy status in 1 area does it affect the others?
It makes no differnence what discipline you are talking about. Either you ARE and amateur, or you ARE NOT an amateur.

Even if you do something completely outside theUSEF (like being paid to exercise race horses) you give up your amateur status for ALL USEF divisions (except reining which has "pro" and "non-pro" instead of "amateur").

flea
Nov. 18, 2009, 08:26 PM
I always wondered...I used to train and show miniature donkeys for some people. If I had been eventing at that time I would have been a pro?:)

midnightride
Nov. 18, 2009, 09:01 PM
Ok, so been PRO my entire life- just was born into riding horses for a living. BUT I used to ride peoples rejects, unbroken, rank stuff... was doing good to stay on.... i rode a few nice WB babies and even got ribbons at nice Dressage shows BUT I SUCK at dressage my SJ is a mess and i just beg for XC..... but i am a PRO..... I LOVE it when i get lucky and draw an "Ammy" field, i feel much more at home and have half a chance.... so just because a rider is not a pure Ammy dont think they are not working their tail off the be there!!!!!

ACMEeventing
Nov. 18, 2009, 09:57 PM
My 12 year old cleans saddles for $5 a piece at my barn . . . Hello Pro! :lol:

bambam
Nov. 18, 2009, 10:29 PM
My 12 year old cleans saddles for $5 a piece at my barn . . . Hello Pro! :lol:
pretty sure juniors are exempted (yes, I know you were making a joke but I think your kid is safe from the mean pros :))

ForTheLoveOfIt
Nov. 24, 2009, 10:55 AM
What about full time college students who are also UL riders?! They don't have the time to ride, compete, be in college and make money working/riding at the same time. I know a couple that worry about being judged or thought of as narcissistic. If some of them decided to go pro and declare themselves as trainers you know there would be a slew of people rolling their eyes and judging them for considering themselves "pro" while young and inexperienced...just a thought...

Ajierene
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:50 AM
What about full time college students who are also UL riders?! They don't have the time to ride, compete, be in college and make money working/riding at the same time. I know a couple that worry about being judged or thought of as narcissistic. If some of them decided to go pro and declare themselves as trainers you know there would be a slew of people rolling their eyes and judging them for considering themselves "pro" while young and inexperienced...just a thought...

The rule is very simple - if you make money with horses, and are over 18 (or is it 21?) you are a pro. Technically, I think running a boarding or breeding facility is exempt, but for simplicity sake - go with the first sentence.

It is not up to the rider to say 'well, I'm going to declare amateur because I don't want to be judged', just like a rider cannot say 'well, I fell off in the middle of competition cross country course - I'm going to get back on because even though the rules say I cannot, I don't want to look like a pansy.'

scubed
Nov. 24, 2009, 01:40 PM
OK, here it is, the whole rule GR1306


1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make him/her a professional. Exception: In the Dressage Division, individuals are only eligible to
compete as amateurs from the beginning of the calendar year in which they reach age 22.
a. Accepts remuneration for riding, driving, showing, training, schooling or
conducting clinics or seminars.
b. Accepts remuneration for giving riding or driving lessons, lessons in showmanship, instructions in equitation or horse training. (Persons acting as counselors at summer camps, who are not hired in the exclusive capacity of riding instructors are excluded and persons giving instruction and training to the handicapped).
c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.
d. Accepts remuneration for the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article (including but not limited to clothing, product, equipment, etc.) to be sold.
e. Accepts prize money in equitation or showmanship classes. Prize money may be accepted by amateur riders in Dressage.
f. Rides, drives or shows, any horse for which he/she or a member of his/her family or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing. (A family member of a trainer may not absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse owned by a client of the trainer).
g. Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives or shows any horse, for which activity another person in his/her family or corporation which a member of his/her family controls will receive remuneration for the activity. (A family member of a trainer may not absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse owned by a client of the trainer).
h. Accepts remuneration, as defined in GR1306.2d, for selling horses/ponies, acts as a paid agent in the sale of horses/ponies or takes horses/ponies on consignment for the purpose of sale or training other than those owned wholly or in part by him/her or by a member of his/her family or farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation which he/she or a member of his/her family controls.
i. Advertising professional services such as training or giving lessons by way of business cards, print ads, or internet.
j. For Amateurs in Jumper Sections, see JP117.
k. For Amateurs in Eventing sections, see EV Appendix 3 - Participation in Horse Trials.
2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified:
a. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses.
b. Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate, course designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona fide remuneration for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or breeder, or for accepting bona fide remuneration for boarding services.
c. Accepting reimbursement for any expenses directly related to the horse (i.e. farrier/vet bills, entries) however, does not include travel,hotel, room and board or equipment. EC 2/17/09 Effective immediately
d. Accepting a token of appreciation, other than money, for riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand. (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of more than $300 are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation). (Also note:accepting any amount of money, whether more or less than $300, is considered remuneration.) Prize money won by an amateur-owner rider/driver/handler in any class (other than equitation or showmanship) is not considered remuneration.
e. Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier or owning a tack shop or breeding or boarding stable in itself, does not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified.
f. Any person who is serving an internship for college credit through his/her
respective, accredited college program, and who has never held professional status, can accept reimbursement for expenses without profit.



4.4 AMATEUR (A) The following may participate in Eventing competitions as an Amateur.
a. Any competitor in possession of a valid Amateur card issued by the USEF, or
b. Any Senior USEA member who competes in the Training, Novice or Beginner Novice Level who meets the requirements of Federation GR1306. Individuals declaring such status must present, upon demand, an audited financial statement in support of the claim of eligibility; failure to do so will be deemed a violation. Misrepresentation of eligibility under this provision will subject an individual to disciplinary action under GR1307.6, GR1307.8, GR1308.3 and Chapter 6. Amateur certification under this provision
is valid for Eventing competitions only and does not confer Amateur status for participation in any other Breed or Discipline.

VCT
Nov. 25, 2009, 12:36 AM
It's like Aijerene said ... except for just the running a boarding or breeding operation or if you are a basic barn worker (stall mucker, do turnouts, etc), perhaps braiding or whatnot... if you make money on horses then you are a PRO.

If you get paid to ride be it training, exercising, whatever, if you teach lessons, if you get paid a salary for a "barn worker" job that includes riding and teaching.. YOU ARE A PRO. If you have sponsors be it monetarily or in material items, you are a PRO.

I don't know why some people have such a hard time with this. The only real benefit for eventers being an Ammy is awards. I think it's pretty classless to declare as an Ammy when you aren't just so you can get awards. But I know people who do it, despite having the rules explained to them numerous times.