How to retrain a horse that's broken at the third?

[mg]

I started dressage about two years ago and since then have done a fair about of research and learning outside of lessons to try to develop a more informed view of dressage and its training, rather than just taking everything my instructor says without question (made that mistake as a youth and I'll never do it again!). With this increased education, I've realized that all the horses at my barn are trained either to be broken at the third or to be completely overbent at the poll (like shown here: http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php). My pony is in the "broken at the third" group and I'd really like to get him working properly. How can I go about doing this?

I am moving to a new barn next month and will have a new dressage instructor, but in the mean time I'd like to start working on this. I don't seen any reason to continue schooling my pony this way for the next couple of weeks when I can be making efforts to change it. I cannot have my new instructor come to the barn I'm currently at...dramatic falling-out between her and the BO/instructor.

Any suggestions to get my pony working properly with his poll as the highest point and not being so heavy/on the forehand?

[Ibex]

Is your horse truly "broken at the third", or has it been worked slightly deep in order to build strength?

Sorry, but the sustainable dressage site is extremely biased. I wouldn't ever make training decisions on it.

http://www.horsehero.com/editorial?feat=27798

[mg]

I'm pretty positive he's truly broken at the third...he has a tendency to get very behind the vertical (more at the trot...his canter's pretty decent), heavy, and on his forehand. Sometimes I'm able to get him to just the "slightly deep" point, but he likes to get bunched up and too overbent. And even if him going that way was to help develop muscle/build strength, he's definitely ready to move on from it...He's gotten very strong in his neck and has looked quite studly since the beginning of this summer with his crest.

I know the site is biased and I definitely take it with a few grains of salt :P It's just the first site I could think of with an accurate picture of the horses at my barn who are overbent at the poll.

I don't know if this makes any difference, but my pony is just shy of 14.2 and while he looks pretty much like a horse proportionally, he still has a bit of a short pony neck.

[Fixerupper]

if he is really 'broken'...maybe you shouldn't ride him ;)
Other than that use some leg...and get him ahead of it :yes:
don't ride the face...ride the hind legs..

what you are describing is just fancy terminology for 'on the forehand' or 'behind the leg'...

[slc2]

It's just a general improvement in one's riding overall that corrects the 'broken neck' and the heavy on the forehand way of going.

The EASY answer is drop your reins. That's what a lot of people will tell you. And the horse's neck will no longer have a kink in it. And until he trips and flips over on you because he's so on the forehand, things will appear to be going well, LOL.

It means the horse needs to be ridden with a different coordination of the rein, seat and leg. You could say 'more leg', but it's really about getting your leg and seat and hand so they are all 'talking to eachother'.

in a better balance, ie, looser, softer, more bendable from side to side, as well as using his hind legs more to hold his weight, instead of leaning on the reins.

Usually this means changes to the rider's position that allows the horse to balance more, as well as teaching the rider to 'loosen up' and be more 'bendable' himself.

It's very, very easy to just drop the rein, drop the contact, make the reins longer.

But in dressage a horse needs to be balanced, and that means he faces the bit, accepts a connection with the hand, and later, when he gets a little bit collected, even some compression so he rocks back on his hind quarters and doesn't cruise around on the forehand.

But that gives the rider his hardest job - to ride with a contact and with a shorter rein, just as loose and soft as he can with a long rein, but maintaining the shorter rein length.

At times, this does, in fact, mean the rider does some 'passive resistance' with his hand - either correcting the horse for pulling at the rein, or simply 'setting' his hand - not pulling back, but resisting his horse pulling down. HOW? He makes a slightly 'flexible barrier'. Instead of just PULLING when the horse pulls, he 'finesses' a barrier. Bend a little this way, bend a little that way, to maintain his rein length. rather than get the rein pulled out of his hand to a longer length. Kind of like Muhammed Ali, the boxer, used to lean on the ropes in the boxing ring. No stiff, hard barrier, it's more like a brick wall with a pillow. You really aren't going to let your horse drag the reins out of your hand and get his head down and on the forehand, but you're going to be awfully clever about how you accomplish that. And even more importantly, meanwhile your legs are 'kicking his hindlegs up under him'. If you JUST try to use your reins and not your legs sufficiently, nothing good will happen. And if he tries to drop the bit, you once again, push him to it. He needs to meet it, but not pull it out of your hand.

How do you reach that? You get a riding instructor, a good one, and take a lot of lessons. Otherwise, it's far,, far FAR too easy to kid yourself, and think that when the horse is 'behind the bit', he's LIGHT. You need to feel something in your hand. How much depends more on the horse's build and way of going and stage of training than some absolute ideal.

There will be changes needed to the rider's use of his legs and reins and how he coordinates them; if he's leaning his upper body forward, that contributes to the 'on the forehand' part of the problem.

The horse is basically a picture the rider paints. If the picture is wrong, we need to paint a little differently. :)

It is not altogether wrong to at times stretch a horse with a rounded topline, the problem is one doesn't want to have a big KINK in the neck a foot or so behind the ears. From the withers to behind the kink the neck goes up, and at the kink, the neck turns abruptly DOWN.

SOMETIMES that kink is an illusion. It's fat or muscle or both. It's important to look at the big neck muscles below the crest (top line) of the neck and see what they're doing and what their shape is. The muscles should have a smooth curve. The bottom line of the neck, from throat to chest, should not bulge forward, but should also have a nice upward curve to it. Unless the horse is a chubby one with a naturally thick short neck, then it's going to have some of that look to it. But again, look to the main neck muscles themselves and observe their shape and position.

MOMENTS of incorrect neck positioning are inevitable. For example, Precious is running away, toward state route 51 and a semi, I'm not going to worry too much if his neck muscles don't look quite classical while I am trying to turn him and stop him, LOL. But in general things are improving, that's a good sign.

The horse needs to be worked in various positions to gymnasticize him and loosen and strengthen his muscles. The key is that the rider can change and control the horse's neck position, rather than the horse being 'stuck' in one pose, instead, the rider can stretch the neck in various ways to develop the muscles.

None of the positions used need to be extreme or uncomfortable looking, but a rein contact needs to be maintained. Stretching as a 'trick' by giving the horse a cue, in other words, dropping the reins and then giving a cue to stretch, with no contact with the horse's mouth maintained, doesn't actually work the muscles properly.

The horse needs to be 'sent' to the bit by using one's legs, not trained to drop his head on cue. Instead, the reins are gradually pulled from your hand as you use your legs aids to get the horse to lengthen his neck, almost like an accordian. He ''takes'' the rein, and you allow him to take it. He 'takes' because your legs are sending him to take it.

The sustainable dressage site is an alternate universe. Get riding lessons from someone who is properly trained, preferably USDF certified, who does not have their head in the clouds.

[ideayoda]

The easy answer is ride an effective hh (reaction to seat and legs) which folds the hindlegs properly so that the horse comes up, open/ifv and out to the hand. Sustainable dressage merely describes what is written in the directives of the fei in terms most people can understand. However, if the horse has shortened its neck, or is behind the hand it is not always so easy. Things like upward transitions or leg yield will cause the horse to re-use its neck, also allowing the horse to chewing the reins from the hand (aka fdo in lower level tests) support this. Proper standing flexions, or work in hand, can help to remobilize the jaw and help to get the horse out to the hand.

[AllWeatherGal]

ideayoga: The easy answer is ride an effective hh (reaction to seat and legs)

However, it's not the easiest thing to execute. It's taken me quite a long time (maybe, it's true, tho that I'm not a naturally talented rider) to ride an effective hh.

In fact, until I began to think of it as a slight rebalance, I always overrode it. Now that I'm riding a young horse who tends to back off from the bit rather than my schoolmaster who liked to just lean and push, I'm having to relearn ... again.

I struggle with how to strike the right balance in written posts between communicating the simple theory and the delicacy of execution.

[Bluey]

Good question.

I watched early last summer one new assistent trainer working a horse broken at the third vertebra, that was happily cantering around.
I happen to mention that to him and he didn't seem to have the concept of what I was talking about.
Just then, the senior trainer came in, corrected him about it, walked him thru how to correct it, but the rider was not having any luck.
The senior trainer got on and in a few minutes had the horse working properly, then handled the reins to that young one, that promptly got the horse going wrong again.
So, the young trainer was given a longer lesson.
I left then, but later noticed that assistent trainer was not around any more.

I think that to correct such a horse is not hard, but you do need to know what you are doing.
I would wait until you are under instruction to see how to go about that, rather than keep reinforcing a bad habit.

[Gloria]

To retrain a horse that is behind takes a lot more time than to retrain a horse that is above so you will need plenty of patience.

Technically speaking, this is what I do. Ask him to move forward using seat, leg, and sometimes a tab of whip. The moment he moves out, he is likely to open his throatlatch a little bit. At that moment, be ready to follow his nose by opening your elbow. It is very likely he will habitually curl his nose in again, repeat, and repeat, and repeat...

And add gymnastic exercises to teach him to use his body better. Most of thoese horses learn to plow along with his front ends because they have not leant how to transfer the propulsion from hind end through back to nose. Shoulder-in, haunches-in, circles, etc are your friends.

Now what I said above are what you do on paper. To make it a reality requires feel and if you have not done that before, is not easy at all. What you really need is a very good instructor to "ride" with you sort of speak. The instructor should "ride" with your every step away and teach you what to do so you can get the feeling of what you should be doing. Once you get the feeling, it is not hard.

[mg]

Thanks for the replies thus far! I will try to work on some of these things in the mean time before I switch barns and will be able to take lessons from my new instructor.

There will be changes needed to the rider's use of his legs and reins and how he coordinates them; if he's leaning his upper body forward, that contributes to the 'on the forehand' part of the problem.

I've been wondering if my position has been contributing to his heaviness. Though I don't have a problem with leaning forward...I'm typically being badgered in my lessons for leaning too far back. I was a H/J rider for 12 years and I suspect my trainer had me lean further back than necessary to develop my dressage position (I have pretty nice eq. for someone who did almost all jumpers--not the nasty hunter slouch--yet I always felt like I was falling backwards in lessons and she would tell me to lean back even further) and this habit has just stuck. I'm fairly straight, but do have a tendency to get a little behind with my upper body. I think it could also be from me trying so hard to get his hind end more active and really stepping under himself (not proper, I know, but I think I get trying so hard it happens subconsciously!).

Could me leaning back cause him to fall on the forehand as well?

[goeslikestink]

Thanks for the replies thus far! I will try to work on some of these things in the mean time before I switch barns and will be able to take lessons from my new instructor.



I've been wondering if my position has been contributing to his heaviness. Though I don't have a problem with leaning forward...I'm typically being badgered in my lessons for leaning too far back. I was a H/J rider for 12 years and I suspect my trainer had me lean further back than necessary to develop my dressage position (I have pretty nice eq. for someone who did almost all jumpers--not the nasty hunter slouch--yet I always felt like I was falling backwards in lessons and she would tell me to lean back even further) and this habit has just stuck. I'm fairly straight, but do have a tendency to get a little behind with my upper body. I think it could also be from me trying so hard to get his hind end more active and really stepping under himself (not proper, I know, but I think I get trying so hard it happens subconsciously!).

Could me leaning back cause him to fall on the forehand as well?

position read page 1 of my helpful links pages and set your stirrups to the correct level and sit if happen to read page one using the half halt stride will hel the horse come off the forehand which is also explained on my helpful links pages if how ever your trianer cant show you or explain the half halt stride then change the trainer its a basic movement which is used in all displines and is so vital to use on a young horse in triaining bit liek the trot its a pace thats freindly with the half halt stride it will help him balance himself and also inform him via a direct signal from you something going to change - ie froma a collected pace to a faster one or visa versa - and you need to use it in all transitions - once you got that one under your belt then you can move upwards to ly and si and half passes etc etc

[EqTrainer]

Ah yes.. well, being told to lean back and then lean back more does raise some questions...

you'll be somewhere else soon. I'd just spend some time reading and not worry too much about it now.. errr... reading somewhere else then Sustainable Dressage...

no worries until you get to the new instructor, see what happens then!

[Ibex]

Ah yes.. well, being told to lean back and then lean back more does raise some questions...

you'll be somewhere else soon. I'd just spend some time reading and not worry too much about it now.. errr... reading somewhere else then Sustainable Dressage...

no worries until you get to the new instructor, see what happens then!

What she said!

[slc2]

I'm typically being badgered in my lessons for leaning too far back.

Do you mean your shoulders are somewhat behind your hips? Often people do that because they are having trouble absorbing the motion of the horse. Some people do it unconsiously to try to stabilize themselves and get their butt down in the saddle.

Try to get your butt down in the saddle because your hip is open and it allows you to sink down and be supple, rather than having to weight it down.

I was a H/J rider for 12 years and I suspect my trainer had me lean further back than necessary to develop my dressage position (I have pretty nice eq. for someone who did almost all jumpers--not the nasty hunter slouch--yet I always felt like I was falling backwards in lessons and she would tell me to lean back even further) and this habit has just stuck.

See if you can find a different way to sit by starting a new habit - open your hip - if your toes angle out at all, try to get them to point forward and keep your ankle soft and flexible, that helps to open the hip.

I'm fairly straight, but do have a tendency to get a little behind with my upper body. I think it could also be from me trying so hard to get his hind end more active and really stepping under himself (not proper, I know, but I think I get trying so hard it happens subconsciously!).

I think I get the picture. Try to get his hind end under by using your leg lightly, if it doesn't work, use your whip, get him a little more electric to a lighter leg aid, so you don't have to work at it so hard.

Could me leaning back cause him to fall on the forehand as well?

Well....kinda, yeah, I do think so. But a lot of on the forehand is the lack of the hind leg taking a big active step to hold the body up, plus rein length, plus wellll....overly steady hand that encourages leaning - mixing in a little bending this way and that,, doing transitions, helps to make the horse more light, more self carrying.