Exercises to Instill Enjoyment of "Forward"?

[sobriquet]

Just as the title suggests, I'm looking for any hints and exercises to help a young horse learn the joy of 'forward.' Five year old Andalusian mare just started this year and while she's very intelligent and eager to learn, she also would prefer to stick in one spot than move forward under saddle. She has only been backed for about a month, doing walk/trot. Knows leg=go, some basic yielding, halts and down transitions from your seat (her favourite request).

I'm not used to working with this breed at all and maybe its a trait common among them but its almost like the ride starts off forward, then as we add more circles and exercises, the forward goes away. She isn't grumpy about moving forward its just like she starts to ignore the aids more and more. I'm definitely careful to start all my aids softly and increase pressure up to a smart smack or two with the dressage whip, but by the end of the ride even that produces a step or two of forward then she slows again. Any exercises you've specifically found which help would be appreciated. Also need to note, there is no option for hacking at this facility, which would normally be my solution.

Thanks!

[lstevenson]

Jumping. :)

[Fixerupper]

don't negotiate ;)
and don't ask so many 'questions' (circles and exercises) until the answer to forward?... is always yes!

[narcisco]

Find a lead horse she likes and teach her to follow him. The issue is common with young horses and really just means that the answer to the leg aid is not as confirmed as you might think it is, or wish it was.

Be clear, voice, leg, whip in that order. Return to the longe occasionally to install the go button better.

[Hampton Bay]

I have a 3.5yo with the same issue. Even his first (and only) trail ride produced no forward response. My poor legs have never had such a workout.

A good brisk canter helps some, but not as much as I would like.

[slc2]

Putting the horse in a position where it feels like moving by itself, such as to chase another horse, jump or run down the trail, does not solve the problem. It is instead of responding to a leg aid, and teaches it nothing.

There is no 'exercise'. It is how one rides every step of the way, from the start of the ride to the last step before one gets off.

Teach the horse to be obedient to the leg aid. Use your leg. If there is no reaction, use your whip. Rinse, repeat.

[rmaryman]

You said that she has only been backed for amonth?
Maybe you're just expecting too much progress in such a short time...whe still has to build up muscle and is still learning to balance herself with a rider on her back. Lots of straight lines and big circles, and not terribly collected either...trying to 'package' her this early in her training is maybe counterproductive if you want forward to come easy and stay consistent.

Rick in VA

[KatherineC]

I have spent time with a cowboy named Tom Curtin who told me "when you put on an aid that horse better move its feet". He of course had the skill to back up the statement where as most of us ammys don't, but it always stuck in my mind.

He also drew the analogy that a horse that goes too slow is just as disobedient as the horse that bolts. It just isn't scary.

[Kyzteke]

Knows leg=go, some basic yielding, halts and down transitions from your seat (her favourite request).

I'm not used to working with this breed at all and maybe its a trait common among them but its almost like the ride starts off forward, then as we add more circles and exercises, the forward goes away.
Thanks!

It sounds like she really doesn't get that the leg means forward -- or at least at this point she thinks it might be negotiable :).

Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but since it's coming at the end of the lesson, she may just be getting tired. Personally, I wouldn't even be doing alot of circles on top of a horse that has only been backed a month -- build her strength with lunging and perhaps keep the u/s circle to a minimum.

Perhaps it's time for a canter? Even trailering her to a place where you can take her out and really let her go would be a good option. I remember one of the top young horse trainers in Germany said in an interview that he ALWAYS took his youngsters to a track near his stables at least once a week so they could REALLY go forward.

Horses, even young horses, get bored from constant ring work -- some quicker than others. If you want to make work "enjoyable" for her, you may have to mix things up alittle.

I know one of the big differences between the "cowboy" trainers out here and the typical dressage trainers is that the cowboys get their horses out of the round pen by the 3-4th ride -- sometimes even sooner!

I went to a Ray Hunt clinic with my totally unstarted Arab/WB mare and by the third day she was out of the indoor arena cruising the fairgrounds (where the clinic was held), watching bulldozers, construction equip, etc.

Lastly, please don't be offended because I don't know you, but are you sure your riding isn't affecting her? We all immediately leap to the conclusion that it's the horse, but every master horseman reminds us the problem(s) usually lie with the riders.

So are you posting the trot, riding her balanced, not hanging on her face or expecting her to have alot of contact...all of those things?

Just ideas....

Good luck.

[MyReality]

A horse that does not respond to leg, is a horse that does not respect the aids. It is THAT simple. If a horse gets more and more dull during a ride, the rider needs to look into herself, what did I do to cause this?

It is also up to the rider, to determine how long, how intense the exercise is. Asking a horse to work beyond his limit, creates a sour and injury prone horse. However a horse that is not challenged to increase his limit, does not improve.

Horses do NOT get bored. If anything, because of horse's innate nature of resisting change, we actually have to train horses to be versatile. Horses do resist poor riding because it is uncomfortable. They also resist poorly disciplined, unstructured training because it is confusing and it shows the lack of leadership on the rider's part.

A horse always gets better with repetition, but repetition is meaningless if it lacks clarity, intention and instruction.

Jumping/trail riding/galloping does not teach a horse about aids. But it DOES condition the horse, and improve his wind and strength. Trail riding on varied terrain also improves balance. That's where you see the difference. It is above cross training, it is not about these things improve the understanding of forwardness, or make the horse less bored. For some breeds, cantering does improve quality of trot, because it helps the horse stretch.

The way I train my horses, I use light aid, and whip to back it up. Never had a horse that do not understand forward. Some horses need more work on the go button, some horses need more work on the stop button. If you want to know what motivates a horse, watch them in the paddocks: if a horse wants another horse to move, what does it do?

[Donkey]

I agree with a lot of the advice above - your horse doesn't yet understand/respect the leg aid. Keep it simple, consistently expect results every single time you ask. And IMO the second biggest thing is to REWARD your mare - tell her she is a good girl or give her a quick pat when you get the response you are looking for.

I also think it would be a good time to start schooling lengthenings when going down long sides or across the diagonal - you put your leg on and she should shoot forward - make it clear and be consistent and expect to use your whip to back up your aids in the beginning. Use your attitude to make it fun for both of you.

[HenryisBlaisin']

How long are you working the horse, and how much of that is spent on circles vs. going large in the arena? At three, her musculoskeletal structures are still developing. If she's going forward for a few strides when you ask and then droppping back, I'd wonder if she were simply tiring-it happens pretty fast to a youngster who is still growing and learning where all four feet go when there is a rider up.

It's like small children-look at your typical Kindergarten day-lots of activities, broken up by a short rest. They simply don't have the stamina, muscle contro,l or attention span to do an activity for very long before they get frustrated and back off from it. Your horse is at this stage!

I would try as much condition (In short increments) as you can. Hill work is the best, if you have access to trails. If you don't, troting poles are also beneficial in conditioning. Work more toward establishing the rhythm and tempo you want in teh whole arena, just throwing in the occassional circle. Remember, it's harder to balance on a circle, and some horses will slow down to help balance themselves. My horse has this problem when he gets unbalanced. Work on strength and condition-there is plenty of time to work on suppleness once the horse is fitter and more balanced-it will be more beneficial then as it is.

After a ride just long enough to give the horse a decent workout without tiring her to the point where she's trying ti listn but can't, put her halter on and wok on some groundwork-walking over tarps, plywood, bouncing a ball near them, laying a rustly raincoat over them etc.-all of this work reinforces what you are teaching her when you ride-that she needs to trust you and that if you ask, she must do, no matter what. It creates an amazing bond, and it goes back to that Kindergarten classroom...many shorter lessons and tasks rather than one that is too long or too difficult

[Maya01]

Jumping. :)

lol Jumping may not be the best thing for a horse that has only been backed for a month...:D

You could try carrying a stick and giving her a tap around where you leg is when you squeeze your legs and she doesn't respond. A dressage whip is easier because you don't have to take your hands off the reins, but it may not be the most practical thing along the lines of trying not to freak the horse out haha But if you can use a dressage whip without making the mare nervous, go ahead!

She probably is slowing down because she doesn't have the strength to hold a circle. Have lots of walk breaks. Hope this helps :)

[lstevenson]

lol Jumping may not be the best thing for a horse that has only been backed for a month...:D


Popping over a few low jumps will do no harm, and you would be suprised how forward some horses become when there is a small jump or two involved in their workouts. And it can be a great way to introduce canter.

I certainly wouldn't say it's a classic way to train horses, but if one is looking for a way to make forward FUN for the horse (which definitely does set you up for success when teaching a horse to be forward), many horses seem to enjoy jumping right off the bat, and become motivated on their own to go forward. And when they are motivated to go forward it is easier to teach them to go forward when you ask. You of course still have to make sure you teach them that they have to go forward whenever you ask, but often finding something that motivates the horse naturally helps you get over the hump w/o fighting with them.

[Valentina_32926]

Trail riding - they want to go forward so you spend more time holding them back (or better yet ride with a trail buddy and let the buddy set a nice consistent pace). :D

[Kyzteke]

A horse that does not respond to leg, is a horse that does not respect the aids.

Actually, this is not always true -- they may not UNDERSTAND the aids, which is very different. If the aid was introduced poorly or not clear or the timing bad, then the horse gets confused.


Horses do NOT get bored. If anything, because of horse's innate nature of resisting change, we actually have to train horses to be versatile.

A horse always gets better with repetition, but repetition is meaningless if it lacks clarity, intention and instruction.

Again, not true. Some horses thrive on routine, other most emphatically do NOT. Most top horsemen warn you about "drilling" a horse on a movement repeatedly and my own experience confirms this advice.

Some horses will give you what you want the first or second time you ask for it -- but asking them for it over and over and over again often gets worse results than the first time you asked.

Jumping/trail riding/galloping does not teach a horse about aids.

It certainly does, if you are USING the aids while doing any of those things. All the aids you use in a ring can (and should) be used on the trail or when jumping. This is especially good for a young horse. So many riders ask for "forward" while basically riding the brake the whole time...if you want them to go "forward" let them GO forward. Eventually they can tolerate more contact, but it's important to teach them forward first.

[sobriquet]

Thanks, everyone. Just a few points of clarification. The horse is 5 years old (one poster had mentioned something about the horse not being able to do the work at 3) and while only backed for about a month, was in a program of lunging/long lining for about 2 months prior so she isn't completely out of shape, although I do agree carrying the rider is a different story and probably has something to do with the lack of forward. Her current rides are 2-3X a week for a total of about 30-40 minutes from the time I walk in the ring, to the time I mount to the time I walk out of the ring, with a few large circles thrown in and some cavalettis on the lowest level for interest during the ride. She is also ridden on a very light contact. The cavalettis do seem to be enjoyable for her but as one poster mentioned, some horses thrive on 'new' lessons and others thrive on routine and she definitely is the type that's better the first time you do anything as she's smart and seems to like the stimulation. So that said, I don't want to overdo the cavalettis either. I was just hoping for more of those types of things to throw in there that you've found are good for mixing things up at this level and keeping her interest in her work while helping her to enjoy moving forward. I really wish I could hack her out but I don't own this horse and it isn't an option.

[EqTrainer]

Personally, while I do indeed jump all my young horses and ride them out, I don't think that is the answer. I think horses need to learn to go from the leg without question, and that this is the main lesson you are riding a young horse for them to learn. It's not necessarily fun and it might be boring, it doesn't really matter.. they have to go.

You can tell when you ride adult horses who have had more training which ones were ridden with the go button correctly installed as youngsters, and those who were not. The ones who were not.. it never really goes away, that particular problem. It manifests itself in all sorts of ways but it it always there. Horse who were indeed taught to go - GO. They don't question it, they are not upset by it.. they just GO.

I would do a bit of in-hand work with her every day before I got on and teach her that the whip behind your leg means jump forward. Lots of praise for this and you don't want to scare her, but better a quick response then none or a slow one. Then get on and only ask ONCE and then tap w/the whip. Be ready for her to jump forward, I loop a finger thru my bucking strap if I am pretty sure we are coming to this moment :D so I don't ever get left behind. Lots and lots of praise for going.

Now.. you say you feel like you have to keep reminding her. Well, you do, at this stage. But you have to remind her at the slightest loss of rythym, not once she has actually started to slow down. So as soon as you feel a change - close your leg and if she doesn't rev it right back up, tap her again.

If at anytime she kicks out at the whip, make sure your groundwork is more defined and then just keep tapping and ignoring her bad behaviour. I like to think of this simply as the wrong answer, not anything else, and I am going to keep asking until I get the right answer. To a certain degree, training is about expecting the horse to keep guessing/trying. The more clear you are, the more she will enjoy training.

[SprinklerBandit]

My mare is 6, just started this year essentially, and had your same problem. She's just not a forward girl. I've done a lot of riding with pretty loose reins. As an instructor explained to me, if I want her to go forward, I need to give her somewhere to go. I may take a very light contact, but obviously, it's more important to me at this stage that we go forward than that we are "on the bit".

Anyways... just something to think about. I concur with the other comments about listening to the aids, though. She does have to go forward when she's told, and you have to let her go. Good luck!

[narcisco]

Putting the horse in a position where it feels like moving by itself, such as to chase another horse, jump or run down the trail, does not solve the problem. It is instead of responding to a leg aid, and teaches it nothing.

That is a fallacy, and a common one from people who do not understand the value of jumps, obstacles, and trail riding or following when teaching the young horse about the leg. If the rider knows how to use those activities (and the voice!) to reinforce the leg, they will have a happier, more forward horse than those who resort to constant whip tapping.

I have seen the worst results from young horses, especially mares, when the rider uses the leg and goes right to the whip. In short order, you have a sullen, angry horse who is more focused on the whip than the leg.

The difference is philosophy happens when people don't take into account a young horse's learning curve. A horse only started for a month or so has only felt the rider's leg a handful of times. The aid is not confirmed in the horse's mind and, when distracted, the horse will sometimes forget what the rider wants.

So, going over a pole, following another horse, or going on the longe line with a longeur are all tools using an outside stimulus to back up the rider's leg, a more pleasant stimulus than the whip, but with the same idea.

All of these tools help the horse understand that the leg means go forward. A good trainer always uses the leg, no matter how the forward is initiated. The trainer allows the forward, no matter what, even a break into a faster gait than asked. The leg aid will become confirmed after a few hundred to a thousand repetitions.

I find it fairly often with a horse a month into the training, regardless of breed. Training young horses requires creativity and a sense of fun. I like how the poster asked how to teach "enjoyment" of forward.

Personally I would not hack the horse out even if you had the chance until she has steering and brakes at all three gaits.

[JackSprats Mom]

You say she is ridden for 30-40 mins and gets behind the leg towards the end of the ride.

I would suggest shorter rides ending on a positive forward note. Your information suggests she is getting tired and/or bored.

Try her for 25 mins while she is nice and forward and end it. At this stage forward is one of the key things to be teaching her while she so green. Forget the rest and work on forward until she is consistent then bring back in circles and LY

[sobriquet]

Thanks again everyone. I think, based on the responses, this is very common and I may be thinking it is worse than it is because I'm accustomed to WBs with a lot of blood or TBs as well, but regardless they are horses who often prefer to go forward than not. When one poster said, "be ready for her to jump at the whip aid" well, that just doesn't happen with this mare (which I guess is a good thing to some extent but I'd rather ride out the 'jump forward' than the constant asking for forward). Also, we do about 40 min total, which usually starts with either a brief lunge, long lining session, or just asking to yield away from pressure, etc. depending on the mood we start out in. So the ride itself is never that long yet. We'll keep at it though and I'm sure it will only get better.

[slc2]

When one poster said, "be ready for her to jump at the whip aid" well, that just doesn't happen with this mare (which I guess is a good thing to some extent but I'd rather ride out the 'jump forward' than the constant asking for forward).

It needs to happen. And it can. With any horse.

[nhwr]

Forward is easy when 2 things happen.
1)The horse understands what you want.
2)They are fit enough that it is not difficult to do what you want .

So you need to balance training (mental) with conditioning (physical).

Though jumping will help some horses, I would not use it as a blanket prescription. In some cases it can do more harm than good.

[Fairview Horse Center]

doing walk/trot. Knows leg=go, some basic yielding, halts and down transitions from your seat (her favourite request).

That is a big clue right there. They need to go smartly forward and straight at all 3 gaits before you begin any sideways, or stop/backward type evasions.

Putting the horse in a position where it feels like moving by itself, such as to chase another horse, jump or run down the trail, does not solve the problem. It is instead of responding to a leg aid, and teaches it nothing.

There is no 'exercise'. It is how one rides every step of the way, from the start of the ride to the last step before one gets off.

Teach the horse to be obedient to the leg aid. Use your leg. If there is no reaction, use your whip. Rinse, repeat.

I totally agree.

You said that she has only been backed for amonth?
Maybe you're just expecting too much progress in such a short time.

Our babies are w/t/c by their 3 or 4th ride. Forward taught correctly only takes 10 to 15 rides - safe and easy. Forward taught badly will take a serious gutsy pro to fix.

I have spent time with a cowboy named Tom Curtin who told me "when you put on an aid that horse better move its feet". He of course had the skill to back up the statement where as most of us ammys don't, but it always stuck in my mind.

Anyone that does not have the skill or guts to back up an, "I don't have to" response by the "teenager" can expect some serious behavior issues. Fix it now before they get into "drugs and gangs". The first "no" is something any basic rider can fix. Each time will get severely worse. We have ammys breaking their youngsters, but they have to make sure they set themselves up to not get in deeper trouble. Often that means weekly lessons thru the breaking process.

Personally, while I do indeed jump all my young horses and ride them out, I don't think that is the answer. I think horses need to learn to go from the leg without question, and that this is the main lesson you are riding a young horse for them to learn. It's not necessarily fun and it might be boring, it doesn't really matter.. they have to go.


Yes. Go means GO. Now.

[Kyzteke]

First of all, I totally agree with all of the comments that say a horse must be responsive to the aids and the rider must not to let a young horse become "deaf" to the leg or think the forward cue is negotiable.

However we are on a BB and not watching the lesson or riding the horse ourselves, so I really think advice needs to be alittle more circumspect in this case.

Again -- no offense to the OP -- but it could be her aids are not given clearly or she is "riding the brake" without realizing it, or even that she is not RELEASING the leg once she's gotten a response, in which case she is just teaching the mare to to "zone out".

But, based on what the OP has said, I think the mare is either getting tired or the rider keeping asking for forward and ends up riding with constant leg pressure without realizing it, therefore confusing or just numbing the horse.

And I don't think we can make blanket statements about how many reps it takes for ALL horses to learn something or that ALL horses will leap forward when smacked with a whip. ALL people don't learn algebra or reading the same way at the same pace, so why should horses be any different?

Personally, my 1st advice to the poster would be to have a really, REALLY good pro watch one of your sessions and maybe even ride the horse themselves, but I have a feeling the OP IS the "pro" in this case and that may not be an option. But, IMHO that would be the best solution in the best of all worlds. A BB can't replace a knowledgeable professional who is actually on the scene.

Barring that, I would forego the lunging prior to each lesson...this mare obviously doesn't need it to decompress.

Perhaps lunge her every other day for 15 minute or so to improve her fitness, but not on the days when she does u/s work.

If you are handy with a whip, then ground work is a great suggestion, but again, the "lesson" is only as good as the teacher.

Lastly, I remember when I got one of my first WBs (with almost no TB in her -- this was back when they were calling them "dumbloods") I watching a tape of them working her u/s. She was very green -- about where the OP's horse is.

They used a ground person walking behind the rider/horse with a whip, and encouraged her forward that way - -using the ground person to "back up" the leg. I thought this hysterical and has never seen this method used before.

Why? Because up until then I only had Arabs, TBs and Akhal-Tekes -- all VERY forward breeds. If I'd done that with these horses I would have been teleported to the next state!

So DO allow for differences in temperament/learning ability/desire...horses are individuals too.:yes:

[slc2]

But this is where you're wrong. A horse that moves forward 'on its own' isn't responding to a leg aid either. And it causes tons of problems down the road.

A horse that is excited, quick and going without responding to a leg aid is just as much of a training problem as the one that goes slowly. NEITHER are responding to an aid, they're just doing what they naturally do.

If a horse falls out of the top floor of the Empire state building, do you say, 'Wow! He's really responding to his rider's leg aid'. Nope. You say, 'he's just falling'. If your horse runs away, do you say, 'Wow, he's really good off my leg'. Nope. Why? Because he isn't reacting to your leg aid at all. He's just doing what either physics or he wants.

You have just as much trouble teaching a horse to respond to a leg aid if he runs around without it as you do with a horse that just shuffles along without it. NEITHER is learning the concept. The concept is that when you use your leg he has to react. With his hind leg.

And I think it's the single reason why when I tried young horses in Holland, ALL of them were 100 times easier to ride than most of the American horses I tried. Why? Because someone was clear and simple in how they taught them. Leg means go. It makes a MILLION problems go away. The old masters who said, 'ride your horse forward and straight' and 'forward out of trouble' knew very, very well what they were talking about.

Look at the pictures of the Lipizanner babies getting trained at the Spanish Riding School. They are forward off the leg, they are ridden with a contact. From day one. That's established on the longe line and simply maintained once the rider is in the saddle.

And no. Urging a horse with the longe whip is for when it's already gone horribly wrong. This is some effort to try and fix what's been done completely wrong, and sometimes that's all you can do.

People had trouble training warmbloods because they spent years and years never learning to ride properly with their leg. They rode horses that were quick and energetic, who ALSO weren't responding to their leg aids.

There's absolutely NO difference between having a nervous energetic horse that doesn't get trained to respond to your leg aids, and having any other type of horse that doesn't get trained to respond to leg aids. That's what people don't get.

As a trainer of mine told one of her students, 'Here's the kimono opener'.

And 99% of people are so stubborn they just say, 'Well I like my Thoroughbred better'. What they don't get is that they aren't riding the thb properly, and just as much, they aren't riding the WB properly. Each horse reacts differently but it is the same problem. But most people are too stubborn to see that.

It is never too early to teach a horse to go from the leg. Never. And there are enough ruined horses around to serve as a lesson of why one has to teach this. 99.999% of the problems that come later - problems with lateral work, problems with getting them on the bit, straight - start right here. People get so irritated when they see someone moving right along in their training, teaching the youngster lateral work, and they get MAD. And they try to do the same, and it fails. Because the horse is not properly schooled to go forward.

Sideways plus not forward equals crooked, resistant, fighting the connection and the bit.

ANYTHING plus not forward off the leg equals problems.

A young horse on the longe learns to go from the whip. The person says 'trot'. If he doesn't go, he gets however much of a correction he needs with the whip. A young horse can learn that, if the longeur is clear, in one minute. The rest of his training is either UN-teaching him that, or reinforcing it.

When the rider gets on, he uses his leg. If the horse doesn't go, he gets a correction with the whip. This is not brain surgery. If it is kept simple, clear and direct, and the leg aid is always reinforced clearly, directly, immediately, the horse is good off his leg the rest of his life.

There is, in fact, nothing else the VERY young horse needs to learn EXCEPT to move off your leg. Nothing else really matters at that stage, and everything else to follow builds on that.

[EqTrainer]

One thing I would like to emphasize here is that the sideways before the GO - is a BIG NO NO. Do not leg yield before the horse goes forward. All this does is muddy the waters and basically teach the horse a great evasion.

Regarding enjoyment of going forward - I think the only truly reliable (as in, it has value to the horse) quality here is that if you train a horse to go forward from the leg and then allow it to go, they experience the same enjoyment in movement and in their body as you do when you work out. Horses are made to move. The best dressage horses really enjoy moving their bodies in an athletic way. I don't think you can teach them joy in their work that is reliable as a training tool in any other way. They have to *like* to go, they have to like to work for you because it feels good to them. My personal horse gets all soft looking as soon as you bridle him, clearly he associates the bit w/that good feeling. He also knows that lifting up his back and reaching on to the end of the rein is going to feel good so he does that right away when you get on. The extra effort is obviously worth it to him as he does it with very little prompting from the rider. I have to think its the same reason that when I hit the yoga mat and am so stiff I can barely bend over, I stay there and keep working thru it - I know it's going to get better and then it's going to get really good.

Sometimes you can get on a horse who has been ridden badly and is behin the leg and show them in a few minutes that it's going to be GREAT and it's so cool, because they just join right in and you can feel their enthusiasm and joy in getting to move freely.

And it must be said, that there are some horses who really don't want to go forward, don't enjoy it, don't take any pleasure in becoming increasingly athletic and supple. There is a job for those horses, too, but it's not dressage IMO.

[narcisco]

double post

[narcisco]

Our babies are w/t/c by the third or fourth ride.

While I think this is stellar, and probably a testament to the babies' good breeding, I can safely say that not all young horses should w/t/c by their 3rd ride.

In fact, I might wait 6 months to a year before cantering a young horse under saddle so he can build a topline ready to hold a rider, go on the bit and be reliable in his balance. Two years down the road, no one knows the difference. But, sometimes the few months you wait at the beginning of the horse's careers buys you years at the end of the career. I understand, of course, that breeders need to sell their young horses, and the further along they are, the more valuable.



That's a good point, and probably one I am misreading or misquoting. One of the major pieces of education I see lacking in colt starting is the time spent with both the rider and the longeur, before the rider goes off alone. I've seen pictures of the SRS with three trainers per horse. One on the longe line, one on the whip, and one on the horse's back. If the horse skipped this stage of training, where the horse learns to associate the voice and whip aid with the rider's leg, then it is a good place to revisit.

When the rider gets on, he uses his leg. If the horse doesn't go, he gets a correction with the whip. This is not brain surgery.

Nor is it always so clear in the young horse's mind. I have seen young horses stop dead in their tracks when the rider uses the leg, reach back and look at the foot with a big ??? in their eyes. I have seen them stop dead from a tap with rider's whip and freeze.

There is *sometimes* a longer process in a young horse's mind before he associates what he knew on the longe with what he gets on his back. He trusted the longeur. He does not trust the rider.

You have to look into his mind to see why the horse does not understand and how you can reach him better. Horses who have been long lined tend to do better because they are used to someone behind them (they can't see) directing them.

Starting colts is a lot more complicated and important than people think. They are rarely cookies and cookie cutter methods don't work on all.

[Kyzteke]

But this is where you're wrong. A horse that moves forward 'on its own' isn't responding to a leg aid either. And it causes tons of problems down the road.


I'm not sure what part of my post you consider wrong, but let me clarify -- the horses I had ridden prior to the WB -- in other words, the TBs, Arabs & Tekes, were not "moving forward on their own" although they could certainly do that if something spooked them -- they just were very easy to move off the leg.

They "got" the idea of forward very quickly and tended to end up very light off the leg. Both their breeding & their natural inclination were "forward", whereas for the WB mare it was obviously not.

Hence the need for the WB for a ground person to follow behind with the whip and back up the leg.

Clearer?

I think it's pretty clear to all of us that when a horse does something all on their own (without the rider giving an aid), they are not responding to an aid :).

[LilyandBaron]

I got a half andalusian QH gelding about 2 years ago, and he was soooo sucked back! He did have an awful previous owner- nice but she was a scared rider. Luckily she didn't do much with him, but her going horses all had muscles under their neck. Anyway, I thought I was just undoing bad training and rewiring him, but like you, I felt like a cartoon character trying to get him to go sometimes! And I don't ever ride babies very long, either. He also wasn't super young (4-5) but mentally young. I do find that since he learns so quickly, getting the response more than once, but not drilling it, seemed to help. Now I just think trot and he goes, and KEEPS going! I'd suggest trying even shorter rides - I'm talking getting a trot response, a real one (and try one attempt with the quiet aid you want, then GO if there is no response, or not enough response). Don't do more than 2-3 tries - and be decisive. riding my boy really helped my rides on other horses - I think we all allow some dull responses sometimes:) Anyway, if she responds more than once, and responds well, stop asking for awhile, or even get off, pull off the tack, praise and make it a big deal. I don't think you'll hurt her at all with a few very clear sessions that may only last 5 minutes. You need her to respond to leg before you can really do any conditioning work anyway, even 30 minutes. It really helped my boy "get it" and then of course, I'd just walk and relax and I also maintained the response longer. But you may have to really focus on the leg aid a few times, and make a big deal when she gets it right, and they do seem to learn super fast! I've having fun - I'm now at the point where I'm figuring out contact with mine - his balance and movement are different than WBs and TBs, so I don't want quick or too long and low - i.e., forehand. Have fun - oh, and I read Podhajsky book "My Horses, My Teachers" and Lipizzans sound similar. But I like them - just different, for sure. Good luck! Oh, and it may take awhile, but since they mature slower, whatever. My guy took about a year of short bursts of work, trails, and NO contact or any holding him back before he was actually consistently forward in all gaits.

[Kyzteke]

While I think this is stellar, and probably a testament to the babies' good breeding, I can safely say that not all young horses should w/t/c by their 3rd ride.

In fact, I might wait 6 months to a year before cantering a young horse under saddle so he can build a topline ready to hold a rider, go on the bit and be reliable in his balance. Two years down the road, no one knows the difference. But, sometimes the few months you wait at the beginning of the horse's careers buys you years at the end of the career. I understand, of course, that breeders need to sell their young horses, and the further along they are, the more valuable.



That's a good point, and probably one I am misreading or misquoting. One of the major pieces of education I see lacking in colt starting is the time spent with both the rider and the longeur, before the rider goes off alone. I've seen pictures of the SRS with three trainers per horse. One on the longe line, one on the whip, and one on the horse's back. If the horse skipped this stage of training, where the horse learns to associate the voice and whip aid with the rider's leg, then it is a good place to revisit.



Nor is it always so clear in the young horse's mind. I have seen young horses stop dead in their tracks when the rider uses the leg, reach back and look at the foot with a big ??? in their eyes. I have seen them stop dead from a tap with rider's whip and freeze.

There is *sometimes* a longer process in a young horse's mind before he associates what he knew on the longe with what he gets on his back. He trusted the longeur. He does not trust the rider.

You have to look into his mind to see why the horse does not understand and how you can reach him better. Horses who have been long lined tend to do better because they are used to someone behind them (they can't see) directing them.

Starting colts is a lot more complicated and important than people think. They are rarely cookies and cookie cutter methods don't work on all.

Excellent post. Not all horses "get" the leg thing so quickly...again, there are Einstein horses and then there are the remedial types:winkgrin:.

And I agree that many horses aren't ready for canter work as early as the 3-4th ride. Alot depends on the talent of the rider AND the talent of the horse. Some young horses just don't have the coordination to handle canter work u/s that early and some riders aren't good enough to truly support that kind of horse through it all. So (imho) the horse gets scared and you end up doing more harm than good.

When I was taking chemistry in college I really didn't 'get' how to balance equations. In general I was considered fairly intelligent and my chem teacher simply could not understand why I couldn't grasp what was (to him) a fairly simple concept. So he kept repeating his explanation over & over AND OVER again...but it just didn't click. He got frustrated and my self-esteem just got lower & lower.

Finally I went to a different teacher (who worked with Chem idiots :lol:) who was able to help me understand by explaining it in a whole different way. That is what good teachers do -- if the student doesn't "get" it from one explanation, they try offering a different sort of explanation...then another & another till they finally hit on the explanation that makes sense to that particular student.

And they ALWAYS keep in mind not all of their students are going to be good at chemistry....:no:

[Fairview Horse Center]

While I think this is stellar, and probably a testament to the babies' good breeding, I can safely say that not all young horses should w/t/c by their 3rd ride.

In fact, I might wait 6 months to a year before cantering a young horse under saddle so he can build a topline ready to hold a rider, go on the bit and be reliable in his balance. Two years down the road, no one knows the difference. But, sometimes the few months you wait at the beginning of the horse's careers buys you years at the end of the career. I understand, of course, that breeders need to sell their young horses, and the further along they are, the more valuable.


Starting them w/t/c is not about their breeding, it is about safety for the rider, and creating habits for the horse. We have started many breeds like this - ALL the same, and the early ones, I had no intention of selling.

The horses I have seen give their riders the biggest problems all had been working for a long period before being asked to canter. Young horses that have not been asked to canter within a few days of being backed begin to think that RIDING is all about walk-trot, PERIOD. Then canter becomes such a big issue for both horse and rider. Canter is VERY close in type and rhythm to "buck", and that is often what they do. They clearly say, "HEY! what the HECK are YOU doing?!?!?! That wasn't explained to me BEFORE"

They need to develop balance in ALL gaits, and it goes easier if they develop all areas together.

For the riders safety too, it is MUCH safer to introduce a gait when the horse is NOT confident, and does not feel like they have so much balance carrying a rider that they can buck too. I want them concentrating on their balance, and not feeling like they can play when they begin to canter.

When we start a horse under saddle, we only sit on them for a pony ride the first day. The 2nd ride, we walk about 50 to 100 yards before trotting briskly. We trot about 5 minutes and get off. The 3rd ride, they step into the canter for about 4-5 strides. We may only canter one direction that day. Day 4, we step into the canter both directions, and may hold it for a long side of the arena. Day 5 or 6, they may canter almost all the way around the arena.

Again, this has been for many breeds, temperaments, and different levels of athletic ability.

[LilyandBaron]

I think listening to each individual horse is best, and trainers of young horses should have experience with lots of different young horses with the guidance of a pro before they try it themselves. I used to write all the names of horses I trained, but lost count after 276 - I was military, didn't own a horse since I moved all the time, so always found sales barns, often multiple barns, hence the high number. I've backed some horses, but a lot of young horses got broke and then came to the sales barns. If you read classical dressage books, all of them (well, I haven't read ALL, but all that I have read) say to let the horse find their balance before cantering. Trot is the easiest gait - then canter, then walk - if you are really schooling walk, not just cooling off. But I think canter problems come from riders with concerns about it. But there are no hard and fast rules. I've always waited to work the canter, and other than a few happy bucks, I have rarely experienced bucking, rearing or any real bad behaviors unless I was retraining a problem horse. Just go slow, but be firm and fair, and reward any attempt they make to respond. I think training goes much faster in short bursts than LONG sessions, and trainers have to reward an honest attempt at an answer to let the horse know that's all you want. Teaching backing for instance (a later step in training) - reward an attempt at going back, don't expect more than a tentative step at first. A correct reinback comes later. Any horse will get frustrated if they try to respond and no praise or release occurs. Ignore the bad, reward the try, and build on that. And learning theory studies on horses proves those observations - and I guess that's another suggestion - read academic studies of learning theory and equines - search on google scholar:) It is enlightening.

[narcisco]

The horses I have seen give their riders the biggest problems all had been working for a long period before being asked to canter.

Perhaps you misunderstand me. In the first 6 months or so I am starting young horses, after they have been going on the longe and in the long lines, they are only walk trot under saddle. The young/green horses are be cantering, but not with a rider yet. They canter the longe and in the long lines, where they would work out their balance issues and build the topline necessary to canter with a rider. I teach horses how to turn, stop and get their leads on their own before adding a rider.They also work out any inclination to buck, with the the longeur making corrections from the ground. All that is done before the rider takes a chance.

For the riders safety too, it is MUCH safer to introduce a gait when the horse is NOT confident, and does not feel like they have so much balance carrying a rider that they can buck too. I want them concentrating on their balance, and not feeling like they can play when they begin to canter.

I have used your method once or twice, as I have no one method for all colts. But in general, I have had the exact opposite experience as you have. I like a colt secure in his balance, concentrating on his rider or handler, not his balance. I want him confident from his ground work that he can canter without bucking. Then cantering becomes an effortless flow. For the most part, I take the first canter when the horse offers it, sometimes its in three rides, sometimes its in 6 months. I assess each individual for readiness and simply encourage when the moment is right.

To be perfectly honest, sometimes we don't even ride the three year olds, if I don't think they're developmentally ready. To each his own.

I have found, from experience with young horses growing up and watching them become older, that much of what we do to a 2 and 3 year old horse is a "waking dream." It's like a child of 2 living in Spain and learning to speak Spanish, then moving to America. At 5 or 6, the child may not remember a word of Spanish but re-learning it comes easier for him.

I sometimes find with young horses who were worked heavily at 2 or 3, those who have done futurities or racing, and doing a lot of new things, that they are only as good as their rider. The rider gets them to do things by force of will, but the young horse, like the small child, does not really "know" the material and learns it only through short periods of regular repetition over the years.

[LilyandBaron]

I've reread some of the comments on cantering young horses - I think the real question is if the horse is ready, AND how you are cantering. I think a lot of horses are ruined by being "worked" into a frame too soon - in any gait. Depending on the horse, I may canter them early or not, but I certainly don't try to change the quality of the canter until they have some topline and a half halt in the trot. I don't think it does any damage at all to just make them go, and a skilled rider can stay out of their way and let them find their balance in all three gaits, but again, it's all based on a trainer that is listening to the young horse. I have jumped some horses in as few as three rides (after lunging and ground driving and free jumping and so on), if they seemed to want to do it. Some horses don't get past mounting the first few rides. But again, I think it isn't the gait that ruins them, but trying to get them to travel in a frame and lift their shoulders before they understand forward and just the basics. You can ruin a baby in a walk just as easily as a canter. I do most of my real training - i.e., teaching them to go forward and back in response to weight, understanding those nuances, in trot, but then I may canter just to do it, without trying to really effect that canter until they have those skills in trot. I do not try to change the walk until they get the other two gaits, beyond making them actually walk, not loaf along. I think the different styles may be because of the nature of the work in the gaits, not the gaits themselves. But there are certainly no absolutes in horse training - having an open mind and trying things to see how it works for the horse, knowing what the ultimate goal is - a responsive, forward, happy horse - that's all you can do.

[Invite]

I am bumping this thread up in hopes of getting more responses. Lot's of us have horses who tend to get behind the leg. The more we can learn, the better. I have been the rider while my trainer was the "whip woman". Timing is important on the ground person's part, but having a lunge whip to assist in reinforcing your leg and whip aids can be priceless.

[buck22]

adventure.

[Emy]

I would also suggest a ground person. If it was me I would call in more experienced back up - go back to having them lunge me forward, active, contact and straight wtc on the lunge, when we can do this well, detach but have them stay in the center to 'hold our hand'.

I had to do this for about 3 weeks to restart a Hanoverian who had been incorrectly started then left for a year to mull it over. He had great plans about not going forward but with the regular calm forward work the lightbulb eventually went off and he is now a super forward guy. My coach did not whip/chase him once but her presence of established 'authority figure' lunger kept things from ever going sideways when he did actually try something. If your mare continues to suck back, she will eventually experiment with more than slowing down. It will be helpful if you have an experienced person on the gound to help you when the moments come. Babies come up with stuff that they don't write about in books - but this is when a second more experienced person becomes invaluable. It has only been through the guidence of the professionals that I worked for that I have successfully found my way.

[meupatdoes]

1. Are you sure she knows legs=go?

Legs=go makes perfect sense to us, who have been legs=go-ing for years, but it is pretty arbitrary to the horse.

I mean, I could deliberately and clearly place my palm on the side of my 2nd Level horse's neck, and then place it there again a little stronger, and then be like, "*whip!whip!* When I put an aid on you better move your feet!"

2. How much voice to you use? When I started my youngster (who was thoroughly schooled on the voice commands on the longe before any ridden work and knew 'cluck' meant faster, as evidenced by notable increase in speed on the longe when hearing a cluck) he needed to have my leg aids 'supported' by voice aids for a good while.
He knew *cluck* meant faster; it took him a while of hearing both the cluck and the leg to put two and two together that leg ALSO meant faster, and more time still to get an adequate response from leg alone.
Similarly, if I wanted to train my 2nd level horse to move off from the palm aid, I would have to do it simultaneously with an aid he already knows for a while.

It also helped my youngster to have a ground person with a longe whip reinforcing the "go" from the ground. He already knew the *cluck* and *longewhip* scenario. It was a familiar combination of aids to him as he learned to branch out to a new method of interaction.

3. How long do you ride her?
From your OP it sounds like she starts off fresher and then peters out. Maybe she just gets tired.
I would do shorter rides with more walk breaks.


Also, narciso's post is excellent, especially the part describing the transition from longing aids to riding aids.