Small Horse Shows / Judges and Trainers

[LaraNSpeedy]

I trained horses for years and moved to the country with small kids and husband and have a small group of riders. I am a dressage based person but we do HJ because jumping is what is so fun for them. I teach them seat, legs and hands back up - and switch them to legs, seat, hands for jumping. They are on their horses - they can ride anything - they can take green horses to small shows and get them to do anything. And their horses are so happy - no contraptions - all mild bits.

However, the last two shows I went to with them - they always get 4-6 place - rarely first or second. The kids who do - ride with a stirrup that is shorter than supposed to be. Way over the ankle - like almost a galloping stirrup. They perch and look pretty - but so many of them have contraptions on their horses - one had something I did not recognize - looked sort of like a chambon but it was doing something to the horse to keep him from being able to buck. He scraped off 3 different riders - the last one whacking him in the FACE with a stick a few times. I was like - gosh, they need to send that horse away - for the horse's sake!

Anyways - there were so many riders who won blues in one class and were dumped in other classes.

I am sort of sad because my riders 'ride' better - it was so clear. Other riders had such poor fundamentals but placed higher because they were lucky and able to perch for 3 minutes without disaster.

One of the girl's horses is only 5 and been in training 8 months. This was her first show and she was very overwhelmed by the hoopla. So I told the rider, just make sure its confidence building - get the mare to relax and not WORRY so much. NO pressure. A trainer yelled out - 'whack that mare!" - and told the audience she would take a stick to her - because she was not wanting to get in front of the leg - she was overwhelmed. I told the rider - just ask her to yield - trot her out big - jump a few fences with a loose rein and pat her - talk to her - and by the end of the course, the mare was relaxed.

I just felt like I was in the twilight zone of people who cant read horses or know good riding from bad. And I realized this was the second time I had been at this place to show where it was the same twice.

And when we went to a big show place to watch an unrated show - a schooling show but at an A facility - everyone was in a 4 beat canter. I asked a trainer who trains a friend of mine - "they are all in 4 beat canters?" and she said "oh, mine will do that too but today he was being bad." - I was like What-the?

Four Beat Canters are what they WANT?

My riders now ask to jumpers because hunters just doesnt agree with them after these experiences. But I love hunters - I think it is an important sport to learn - the technical bits before jumpers. But now I am concerned. Its been 10 plus years since I showed a lot in higher hunters and its been 20 years since I campaigned as a teen. Has it changed so much or is this just the area I live in?

[mroades]

a lot will depend on where you live. In what state do you live?

Sometimes it is better to go ahead and do the jumpers if the hunters in your area are rewarded for "other" behaviours than what you know to be correct.

[Lucassb]

Without actually seeing the riders in question, none of us can have a terribly useful opinion.

If I had to *guess* - I'd say it is possible that your riders are more upright, using more seat and riding with a longer stirrup than might be considered ideal in the hunters. The riders that you believe are perching might well just be in a soft half-seat, producing the invisible ride that the judges are (should be) looking for.

Or you might well be right and the other riders were terrible, and the judging s*cked. :D

For what it's worth - riders are only judged on the trip in the ring for that class. Makes no difference if they were the winner or fell off in the mud in a different class.

If you want to see what is desirable in the hunter ring, there are tons of videos on Youtube for any division you can think of. Watch some winning trips from the big AA horseshows and you will have a great opportunity to compare your riders to the ones who are successful at the very top.

[LaraNSpeedy]

I do spend time teaching them what a dressage seat is - full seat - how that is actually different - the half seat - forward seat - 2 point - galloping position - we work through all of these. I have one rider who will drop her stirrups a hole when I am not watching - she is sneaky - she likes to ride with a longer stirrup - I tell her - FINE - you will not place and you your leg is going to swing - and you are less secure.... But the stirrup should hit at or right above the ankle. And then I also judge by how they RIDE - some of the kids with long legs that just grew for them - have less control and I might even have their stirrups a hole higher than they would equitation-wise.

I do not think my riders ride with too long of stirrups at the show or at home over fences. They do often lower their stirrups and do dressage.

They feel more comfortable sitting up a little more than forward - but I remind them to be more forward for equitation - and in watching, they were sitting forward like others. Two rode more upright at first and I reminded them - but they canter a jumping course nice and in 2 point - full seat to balance and back in 2 point....

But the other kids had their stirrups up high - seriously - its like a crosscountry stirrup length.

I dont know - I know it is about style and technique. And I push that - we watch videos etc - when we watch A championship riders on YouTube - they are not in 4 beat canters. So that is why I am like - Why is everyone riding in 4 beat canters and why are they getting high ribbons? We did a hunter class where they were supposed to hand gallop one half of the ring - no one actually did that but my riders. But kids placed ahead who never really hand galloped. They missed an entire part of their course. It is like they missed the rein back - if a rider misses a rein-back - they should not place right? So if they miss the hand gallop - they should not place.

I think I will just keep coaching them to have the right attitude about these classes and drift over to more of the jumper classes. And I will have to wrap myself around humility and see where I can help them. Its not about blue ribbons at my barn - but when you go and ride well - and other riders are falling off and riding canters that are poor and missing elements in their courses and placing above you - it can be disheartening.

[heartinrye]

Consider this though- at smaller shows, IME, the low level jumper riders are not correct (most of the time) and just zoom around at high speed, and win, which means your girls again will not be winning blues. So I would just make the point that they should work towards their best rounds, since in either scenario it seems your riders not be winning high ribbons at this level.

[HuntrJumpr]

But kids placed ahead who never really hand galloped. They missed an entire part of their course. It is like they missed the rein back - if a rider misses a rein-back - they should not place right? So if they miss the hand gallop - they should not place.

If its helpful, I watched a 3' medal callback - at an 'A' show - where the girl who placed 2nd completely missed the "halt and back four steps" bit of the test. Everyone saw it; I'm pretty sure her trainer yelled it across the ring. Sometimes the judging is just off. Nothing you can do. And not a lot more we can tell you without seeing the classes and the riders in question. :/

[NJRider]

Was this an unrated schooling show? If it is like my area, you see unqualified judges, poor horsemanship, really bad riding by people who are point chasing and a lack of standards.
I recommend looking for a better quality show circuit. It may be worth it and your students may be better rewarded.

[hntrjmprpro45]

I have seen some pretty bad schooling shows. A lot of times the distances are set much shorter due to the smaller jumps so the larger horses in particular seem to lope around the course. They do like slower paces in a lot of shows- probably because it seems to "fit" the fence size and may seem more "kid friendly".

As for the judging, I think many schooling shows are sort of like being in the twilight zone. Its kind of a guessing game as to what the judge is looking for at times. I have seen some judges that prefer a rider that "looks good" over a rider that rides well. Some judges don't count of for chipping in Eq classes and some don't even count off for picking up the wrong lead so long as you fix it (lower levels). Also keep in mind, usually at the schooling shows you have a much wider range of jumping rounds and will see a lot of different mistakes so it becomes more of a judges preference about what is counted off more for.

[superpony123]

that's unfortunate. i'd guess it's a localized sort of thing, because I rarely see such behavior in my area. however, this is horse show land (nj) , and there's usually a choice of 10+ shows every weekend year round. (oh, lets make it 5 for the winter. haha)

anywho, yeah, your riders might be better, but its possible that the judge found that their longer stirrup length and deep seat were unsuitable for hunters. usually you should have short (but not excessively short.) stirrup and a very light seat, or go around your course in 2pt. (as opposed to equitation where a full seat and longer stirrups is much more suitable) and frankly, yes, it was a hunter class, and yes, maybe those riders fell off in one round and perched quietly in the others, but it is a HUNTER class. lillie keenan fell off at devon in one round when i was watching, got back on and won the next class. Is lillie a bad rider because she fell off? no. the pony had a dirty stop and she definitely was not expecting it (nor was i !). the jump was a very spooky jump, though. who knows. either way, you have to remember its judged by EACH ROUND. As in, you have to separate all the rounds and judge them separately. I've had absolutely terrible rounds and then brilliant ones following--I won't place (or place very low) in the terrible one, but when I've got a brilliant round, I am generally in the top 2. Anywho, hunters = judged on horse primarily, you have to remember that. Even if the kids were perching, leg swinging, (an old trainer liked to joke that some hunter riders who dont really know how to ride are just riding "like a monkey on a football" :lol:) if the horse went around the course nicely--whether it be because the horse is a saint or because the rider put the horse together, the ends justify the means. the horse went around nicely, thus reward.

that being said, i dont know how all the horses went around, that's just my first thought. it is also very possible that there's just a bit of unskilled judging. it's easy to find this behavior at local, unsanctioned shows in the middle of nowhere, unfortunately. :no:

[InWhyCee Redux]

However, the last two shows I went to with them - they always get 4-6 place - rarely first or second. The kids who do - ride with a stirrup that is shorter than supposed to be. Way over the ankle - like almost a galloping stirrup. They perch and look pretty

This is why, if I had kids, they would be doing eventing or jumpers. I live in the NE and loathe the way some (very successful) H/J riders look over fences — crotch over the withers, leg swinging back, and hands reaching for the ears. I specifically tell my trainer that I don't want to ride that way!

Remember, too, that hunters are judged on the horse — if the horse is snapping his knees and rounding his back over every fence, the judge may not care what the rider is doing as long as s/he stays on. ; )

[magnolia73]

Hunters= judged on horse. A rider can ride really badly- but if the horse packs them, they will win the ribbon. Having watched eventers show hunters- they often look nice and tight, but tend to "do to much" and their rounds just don't have a nice flow. The ideal is a horse that picks up a nice canter, stays there and finds the jumps without visible effort on behalf of the rider.

Plus- the usual- bad judging, politics- can play roles.

Chalk it up as experience and maybe find some combined tests that your students might enjoy more.

[MyGiantPony]

This sort of smacks of sour grapes to me.

You know your kids ride better, yet it sounds like they place pretty consistently in the bottom.

<<<Four Beat Canters are what they WANT? >>>

Um. No.

<<<My riders now ask to jumpers because hunters just doesnt agree with them after these experiences.>>>

You can A. teach them that hunters and eq are subjective or B. do the jumpers, which can still be political and/or subjective (ie rub classes) but with less risk of the judge's opinion actually being a factor in placing.

[War Admiral]

Lara's in my same general area, where a lot of the local non-rated open shows are still judged by AQHA-style judges. They may not actually be CARDED for AQHA, but that style is what they like. So yeah, I've certainly seen 4-beat canters get pinned.

"Find a better circuit" is a lot easier said than done around here. There are people TRYING to get the USEF disciplines going but it's very tough and not going to be any easier at all if that rule change proposal (see other thread) passes.

[Brydelle Farm]

Lara's in my same general area, where a lot of the local non-rated open shows are still judged by AQHA-style judges. They may not actually be CARDED for AQHA, but that style is what they like. So yeah, I've certainly seen 4-beat canters get pinned.

If this is the case, then it isn't a "true" representation of hunters and not a reason to move to jumpers per say.

Use this circuit as a way to test your students and don't put any weight on their ribbons, tape their rounds and review them as a group as a learning tool.

Also, perhaps approach the show management and see if they have a comment box, so you can suggest some judges you feel may be better educated in hunters/eq, to help grow the sport.

Ride well!

[bizbachfan]

Well without videos really hard to tell. I can only tell you my experience. I was trained with classic George Morris style riding back in the 70's. I finished showing hunters about 25 years ago. I have been a trail rider since but just recently trying to get back into showing hunters. I see a big difference in the several different show circuits near us. You may not be some where with enough shows to pick and choose, but just letting you know there is a huge variance from circuit to circuit on what they are looking for and pinning. I was so happy to go to a recent GM clinic and see he is still teaching the same thing I learned as kid and criticizing the way many ride these days.

[findeight]

Local, unrated shows are not representative of Hunters and Equitation in general. They just reflect what is there that day under what could be a very, very loose interpretation of the rules.

With a judge who usually is not in high demand for major circuits and not as well paid forced to choose between the best of a poor lot and decide which mistake(s) is/are not as bad as the others.

Unless you are perfect and lay down a trip that would score 90+ anywhere, wasting time over a 62 winning over a 60 you thought should have been a 63??? Waste of time. They were both bad but we have to pin the class.

Unlike Dressage, there is no set standard, only the judges opinion on who was the least bad based on THAT class and that class only.

Probably some time spent spectating at bigger and better locals and some USEF AAs would tell OP more then this.

And, sorry, but I cannot stand the "That's why I don't show. Everybody else rides bad". So go to a better show and ride better.

[Trixie]

I am sort of sad because my riders 'ride' better - it was so clear. Other riders had such poor fundamentals but placed higher because they were lucky and able to perch for 3 minutes without disaster.

It's subjective, and that's irrelevant.

Hunters are based on the horse, so truthfully, the rider doesn't matter. I don't know what's up with the four beat canter... that's peculiar.

Stirrup length isn't relevant but a lighter seat might have shown off the horse better.

If you're dressage-based, is it possible you're missing some of the nuances that make a successful hunter?

This is why, if I had kids, they would be doing eventing or jumpers. I live in the NE and loathe the way some (very successful) H/J riders look over fences — crotch over the withers, leg swinging back, and hands reaching for the ears. I specifically tell my trainer that I don't want to ride that way!

There are plenty of bad riders in every discipline. I don't find it exclusive to one.

And, sorry, but I cannot stand the "That's why I don't show. Everybody else rides bad". So go to a better show and ride better.

Ditto this. Use it as a learning experience to figure out what you can improve, then improve it. I find it fairly rare for a horse show to make a habit of deliberately pinning better
riders last. Use it as a learning experience to figure out what you could be doing better.

[bizbachfan]

I see the four beat canter at the local english pleasure show and spills over into some of the hunter shows at same facility. I don't get it, but .....

I agree being a dressage based trainer may account for your disdain at the way the other kids are riding. At the GM clinic I just went to he picked out a dressage based rider immediately and told her she needed to ride more forward at the trot and jumping. It was not a major adjustment but made a difference. If you really want your kids to place higher and can only show on this circuit I would see if you can make some minor adjustments and see what happens. Otherwise stick to what you view as correct and stop focusing on the ribbons.

[luvs2ridewbs]

One thing that no one else has said yet- if this is your areas only circuit, why not get involved with running the show to make it a better experience? Join their committee and encourage picking USEF style judges, sign up to be course designer, etc. Don't just complain about why your local circuit is bad, get involved and make it better!

[bizbachfan]

luvs2ridewbs, great idea!

[JinxyFish313]

I do find that most local shows are full of riders and trainers that make me cringe. Programs that encourage just plain bad horsemanship and value getting around over getting around properly. So many kids who "pose" to look like AA circuit riders but have no skill to back it up. Trainers giving riders advice exactly opposite of what I would say.

BUT...

They don't win when someone with a classic, light and capable seat, good hands and the ability to make decisions on course shows up.

I've had times when my kid is most likely the best overall rider in a class, but she made a silly mistake that cost her a ribbon to someone who is overall less effective and less pleasing to the eye.

So you need to take a look at your riders...are they really examples of quality hunters for their division? Second, you need to look at their specific rounds. Were they 100% on their game? Were their courses the best they can do? Its great if they are awesome 99% of the time, but if they are off during the 3 minutes in the ring, the judge can't know that. They only have what they just watched to go off of. The most frustrating thing in the world for me as a trainer is watching a student underperform when I KNOW they know better and have a better round in them.

Lastly, there are always politics in local circuits. Trainers who show up to every event will sometimes get more ribbons that those who come to one or two. Sometimes a judge can't help but reward a rider for getting better over the course of a circuit, even if there are superior riders/rounds. They aren't machines and can be biased without even knowing it.

[Haalter]

Assuming the judging really is "off"...

Are the courses well designed? Is the footing good? If so, think of these shows as a schooling experience. (If not, personally I'd skip them even if your kids are winning.)

Explain to the students that judging is subjective, and try not to bash the judge. When I expect a student to win a class and they don't get a ribbon I always say something like, "I guess the judge didn't like that round as much as I did" rather than saying "The judging sucks". You can always complain about the judging to your SO/mom/grandma/cat when you get home; complaining to your clients is bad sportsmanship.

If the judging really is terrible? Volunteer to judge at the next show. As someone else mentioned, start your own series and pick judges you know and respect. But as far as the existing shows go...is it really that important to have a 50 cent ribbon? At this level, I'd be more concerned with having good trips and making consistent progress than the class results.

[LaraNSpeedy]

THANKS! I respect the comments and thoughts!

To the several remarks and comments:

1. Low level jumpers has rules no judge. So its not that hard to out ride a rider who is flying around like a wild person. I am a Matz throw back - he made jumpers look like hunters to me. Many of my riders prefer jumpers but due to their experience and training and some of the horses needing more experience - I have been pushing them into hunter classes for the technicals. I preach they need to ride a line straight and use their arena fully - be able to find their stride - the rhythm - tempo - set up correctly - before starting to shave off time, cut corners, jump at angles....

2. I have lived here just over 3 years and the Hunter shows we have gone to clearly push - the slowest canter possible - the better. And being a dressage person - I cannot STAND impure gaits. It is like - to me - its against the horsemanship law. Since I see it so much - I wanted to ask. When I did hunters and took riders I taught to hunter shows - I usually went to A shows - true. No one in CA did schooling shows. Sometimes we went to B-C shows. But even there - everyone was pretty good - nice, forward - pure gaits.

I guess my point was - since I have been here - I see all horses and riders trying to perfect a course - with that 4 beat. Riders also missing elements but not getting counted off. I will see a horse with a leverage bit and an anti-bucking device attached to him go out and buck riders off and trainers whack them in the head.... and judges just sit there. I have just observed and rolled along. But now, when evaluating out 2010 goals - not voicing 'sour grapes' - I am thinking its time for a change in scenery.

So I think we will dabble in jumpers and do some 3-in-1 shows in 2010. I am not going to give up on HJ. But in my area there are schooling and then A shows. There is not a lot in between. So in this economy - with my middle class students - they are not going to budget $800 a show to gain experience.

Do not get me wrong - we are not in this for the ribbons - but you want to not lose to people who are missing elements and cantering impurely.

OH and incidentally - my riders DO NOT PLACE IN THE BOTTOM. Believe it or not - a lot of these classes have 15-25 people in them. Even though they are low level. The schooling show at Brownland 2 shows ago had 60+ people in one class and had to break into two groups. My riders always seem to pull 3rd-4th-5th-6th. And its just like - ok, rarely any blues or reds. No big deal but - I guess its just time for a change huh?

[JinxyFish313]

By the way, if you're seeing things like trainers hitting horses in the face with a crop...speak to the steward/vet/management at the show.

[MyGiantPony]

Just an FYI - when I commented that your students place consistently in the bottom, I didn't mean that they were in the bottom of the class - but that they PLACE in the bottom of the 6 ribbons - which is exactly what you said.

I was just saying they seem to be pinning consistently in that range, so maybe they are pinning exactly where they belong.