Another interesting read on Rolkur and horse welfare [Archive]

Bluey

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:19 AM

That is what most have been trying to present to the radical anti-s here, but are getting nowhere.

The only point I think is not valid is to say that we are giving the animal rights ammunition by the controversy.
While that is true and I myself have stated that, I think that if RK really was abusive, not just PERCEIVED as abusive without direct proof as of now, we should not care if it is "telling on ourselves" to our declared enemy, the animal rights fanatics that want to abolish all use of animals by humans.
As the president of the HSUS said:
"One generation and no more domestic animals and none too soon for me".

So, valid a point it is, that of not wanting to give those groups any more ammunition against our use of horses, if RK was abusive, we ourselves should be yelling against it, no one should "make" us do so.

The trouble here is that, as of today, no one yelling RK = abuse can do more than say "it looks like it could be".

There is much more proof AGAINST RK being abuse, as per the many horses over many years now that are doing fine training with some use of that technique.:yes:

As for EponaTV not wanting to give the FEI the unedited video, well, that speaks loudly for their motives and proof, that they either want the controversy to continue, bringing subscribers, free advertisement for them if you want, or whatever other motive they may have, like no real proof other than the edited and maybe altered video.:p

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:44 AM

slc2

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:48 AM

My guess is that they don't have a 2 hr video.

Yes, the HSUS president did say that, and he meant it. All domesticated animals. Y'all really wanna get in bed with that bunch? 'Cause you might regret it down the road.

Bluey

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:54 AM

Does anyone know if it is true that Epona is refusing to provide the FEI with uncut footage of the allegedly 2 hour session? If they care so much about animal welfare, why wouldn't they help the FEI in its investigation?

That is a good point, maybe that was an unconfirmed fact.
There are so many of those around, but we are not journalists, trained to find them and have to work with what we were given.

Good catch on questioning that.:yes:

Discobold

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:55 AM

Excellent editorial. I don't practice rollkur myself, and I don't know if it's "abusive" (whatever that means, as I'm sure we all define it differently). But I'm not willing to condemn people based on something I don't know :no:. It's also a matter of skewed priorities. Why devote so much time and passion to "help" a handful of international level horses that live in luxury - (can anyone deny that they have shelter and food, tack that fits, and the best veterinary and farrier care?) - when there are horses in need right in our own communities? Lets put aside the ugly riding at the lower levels that must be painful to horses. What about blatant abuse and neglect that we know exists, horses that are never going to live a pampered life in retirement like Bonfire? Why not use all that passion and energy to save them?

Bluey

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:59 AM

Excellent editorial. I don't practice rollkur myself, and I don't know if it's "abusive" (whatever that means, as I'm sure we all define it differently). But I'm not willing to condemn people based on something I don't know :no:. It's also a matter of skewed priorities. Why devote so much time and passion to "help" a handful of international level horses that live in luxury - (can anyone deny that they have shelter and food, tack that fits, and the best veterinary and farrier care?) - when there are horses in need right in our own communities? Lets put aside the ugly riding at the lower levels that must be painful to horses. What about blatant abuse and neglect that we know exists? Those horses are never going to live a pampered life in retirement like Bonfire. Why not use all that passion and energy to save them?

On the other hand, repeating myself, sorry, we should care for all.
Our priorities should encompass all horses, be it abuse in a top stable or some far off balkan land.

The trick is to decide if RK is abuse and right now, not only is the jury out, there is not enough to make a case of it, not with what we have to go by, in my humble opinion.;)

slc2

Nov. 15, 2009, 08:07 AM

A lot of people feel deeply that just by looking at it, they can tell it's abusive. But as far as having something to go to bat with, to a court or similar proceeding, no.

egontoast

Nov. 15, 2009, 08:19 AM

Good editorial by Christina Jones. In part she says:

In addition, we need further unbiased scientific research into the long term effects of hyperflexion by scientists who are not selling inflammatory books and DVDs on the back of their supposed research!

True.

Not to name any particular author, but enough with the inflammatory junk science!

fburton

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:13 PM

Not to name any particular author, but enough with the inflammatory junk science!
Please do! (by pm if you prefer)

mbm

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:14 PM

The trouble here is that, as of today, no one yelling RK = abuse can do more than say "it looks like it could be".

<snip>

As for EponaTV not wanting to give the FEI the unedited video, well, that speaks loudly for their motives and proof, that they either want the controversy to continue, bringing subscribers, free advertisement for them if you want, or whatever other motive they may have, like no real proof other than the edited and maybe altered video.:p

i am not sure why the (negative) research into hyperflexion (or aspects thereof) keeps being ignored. it is out there - so please do not say it isnt - feel free to say you disagree with the research - but it is out there.

as for EPONATV - i had an email conversation with them when the story first broke. and i asked them why they were not going to cooperate with the FEI - the response was that they are journalists - it is their job to report what they see - period.

and while being an anti rollkur girl, i would like them to cooperate, i see their point to a degree. how many journalists are part of investigations outside the horse world? i dont know , but it seems that there is some precedence for that ?

and finally - i think it is slightly paranoid and giving far to much credence to them to think that anyone would be able to ban domestic animals. you only make them seem credible by being afraid of them.

mbm

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:17 PM

Does anyone know if it is true that Epona is refusing to provide the FEI with uncut footage of the allegedly 2 hour session? If they care so much about animal welfare, why wouldn't they help the FEI in its investigation?

while of course i cant really say if it is true or not, i had an email conversation with them and she did confirm they were not going to give the 2 hour footage to the FEI, nor were they going to cooperate with the investigation.

reason given: they are journalists - they report what they see - period -

honestly - this has made me very wary of them.... but as i said in a previous email - do other journalist have to give over footage and be part of investigations?

i seem to remember cases in the US where journalists went to jail rather than cooperate.

mbm

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:21 PM

so.... non vets and non scientists feel they are qualified enough whether to say something is "junk science" or not?

huh.

eta: i assume she is referring to Gerd Heuschman (sp)

Kareen

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:51 PM

Possibly. It has always been easier to badmouth research non-compliant with your personal feelings than to read through it and digest it. Besides what ever happened to pure and simple love for the horse? Even without scientific results in place one could easily tell it's no fun for a flight animal to have their head bound to the chest - whether by mechanical force or habitually - and go around like that for hours especially when at the same token asked for significant efforts to perform unnatural patterns of movement that are nowhere to be seen performed by a horse at liberty.
The picture that used to be described when trying to explain to non-riders what dressage is all about has always been that it tries to make them perform movements they will naturally perform in the state of highest exhilaration, known here as 'Imponiergehabe' on demand with just the slightest of hints being used as cues.

Now you tell me where slightest hint and Imponiergehabe have anything to do with what's being displayed in today's dressage circus. Makes you think of the old say of the revolution eating its children... I'll be happy when those days are over I can tell you.

slc2

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:52 PM

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:56 PM

while of course i cant really say if it is true or not, i had an email conversation with them and she did confirm they were not going to give the 2 hour footage to the FEI, nor were they going to cooperate with the investigation.

reason given: they are journalists - they report what they see - period -

honestly - this has made me very wary of them.... but as i said in a previous email - do other journalist have to give over footage and be part of investigations?

i seem to remember cases in the US where journalists went to jail rather than cooperate.

In 2005, Judith Miller, NY Times reporter, was held in contempt of court and jailed for refusing to reveal her confidential source regarding the CIA/ Valerie Plame leak investigation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/07/opinion/07thu1.html

That is a different issue. Here, no one is asking Epona to disclose the identity of a confidential source. Epona is making very aggressive claims that it has incriminating video footage, yet has refused to release this supposed footage

mbm

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:58 PM

"why the research keeps getting ignored"

because it doesn't look very good.

I think if it did, someone would have proceeded on it. Hyperflexion is the kind of thing some lawyers just love. If there was any meat to the evidence, they would have taken it and run with it 20 yrs ago.

so you and other non scientists feel you are qualified to say whether something is junk science or whether or not "it looks good"

sure, there may not (i am not sure as i am not up on the science of horses) be a study called "rollkur - good or bad", but i can assure you there are many studeis of parts of the puzzle. and many researches are working on various aspects of it .....

mbm

Nov. 15, 2009, 01:00 PM

In 2005, Judith Miller, NY Times reporter, was held in contempt of court and jailed for refusing to reveal her confidential source regarding the CIA/ Valerie Plame leak investigation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/07/opinion/07thu1.html

That is a different issue. Here, no one is asking Epona to disclose the identity of a confidential source. Epona is making very aggressive claims that it has incriminating video footage, yet has refused to release this supposed footage

yeah, i wasn't sure how or if it related.

in any case - i am not trying to defend EponaTV - just understand.

i cant imagine them lying about having the tape - but why they wont release it is beyond me.

altho - it shouldn't matter - the 10 minutes we saw was pretty ugly and goes against every utterance "they" have said that it is used only for a "moment in time"

Touchstone Farm

Nov. 15, 2009, 01:10 PM

I don't presume to know or understand Epona's reason not to hand over the video. Even thinking back to my journalist days, but...personally I think the 10 minutes was disgusting enough.

I suppose now the FEI will somehow get out of it by saying they couldn't verify two hours' so therefore, there is nothing to investigate...or some other wiggle-room excuse.

I would never in a million years ride my horse that way. And I know some of you will roll your eyes, but I wouldn't want those who practice rolkur (even those top riders getting those incredibly high scores) to sit on my horse. Debbie McDonald and Steffen Peters (and some others) -- yes, please, get on my horses any time!

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 15, 2009, 04:04 PM

I suppose now the FEI will somehow get out of it by saying they couldn't verify two hours' so therefore, there is nothing to investigate...or some other wiggle-room excuse.

I doubt that. Historically the FEI does not make any effort to be lenient and frequently seems to care little about evidence. It may very well be that they decide that it is irrelevant whether the practice occurred for 10 minutes or 2 hours.

Karoline

Nov. 15, 2009, 04:06 PM

Good editorial by Christina Jones. In part she says:

True.

Not to name any particular author, but enough with the inflammatory junk science!

With all due respect, how is Dr. Heuschmann's work inflammatory junk science? The mention of the book and dvd sort of points to him. If you have any response to his work from other vets beside the one who spoke for rolkur and then went to work for Anky and Sjef I would be interrested in reading it.

It is true that we need to have more information available. It is far from perfect, but I have been working with different equine health professional on developing some articles for 2010 that will provide their pov on rolkur from their specialization- osteopathy, physiotherapy, veterinary, and yes even acupuncture or cranio-sacral therapies, etc..

I have been looking specifically for pros who have recognized credentials and whose training demands a rigorous and in-depht understanding of anatomy, systems and biomechanics.

While I recognize this is not as good as pure veterinary research, I think it may help (at least me) understand this issue better from the point of view of the horse's body. I know there are those who will find fault with any knowledge I gather, but I still think it is an interresting project. And, I think it is also something worth discussing with the equine health professionals in your life - and even ask them to put their thoughts in writing.

I know all these discussions have prompted me to work on understanding the spine better, the deglution system better, etc..if others are inspired to do the same then at least this discussion is making some of us better informed, and that is good.

siegi b.

Nov. 15, 2009, 06:47 PM

Discussing the RK issue with your regular vet doesn't make any difference one way or the other because nine times out of ten (s)he will not know what you're talking about.

So it becomes a subject for the specialists among veterinarians - those with excellent working knowledge of equine orthopedic and neurologic functions, as well as how exactly RK is being applied.

Finding those specialists will not be trivial and then to find the riders that can intelligently explain why and how they use RK makes this an even bigger problem.

Eventually it will all be worked out. I do hope that the animal right activists don't get involved any more than they already are because that will definitely mean the end of animal ownership as we know it.

I don't know about you all, but I certainly would not just accept some group taking away my animals because they thought that "owning" them was against the animal's welfare. And that's where this is all headed... believe it or not!

MelantheLLC

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:21 PM

mbm

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:33 PM

please, i hope i am wrong here.... but am i reading this right that since some are afraid of animal rights groups that we should not go anywhere near welfare issues and not try to regulate ourselves?

MelantheLLC - wonderful post -

Sabine

Nov. 15, 2009, 08:56 PM

The problem the pro's have, and seem unable to recognize, is that they are faced with some very convincing and well-presented books, videos and DVD's that explain the objections to "modern" training methods in a clear and understandable way. Heuschmann, Epona, and others are very very well presented. They are clear and they are easy to follow, and vividly persuasive.

Ok, so maybe they are dead wrong, but you aren't going to convince anyone of that just by screaming like a bunch of stuck pigs.

I do not see the convincing, well-presented books and DVD's that explain WHY Heuschmann is wrong, or WHY the Epona videos are so evil. Particularly the video that shows Matinee and Aragon piaffing on a split screen, where it's so abundantly clear that Aragon is doing a correct piaffe and Matinee is doing some pathetic head-bobbing thing that makes you feel sorry for her. (And yeah, you have to subscribe to see this video. This is sophisticated in-depth information, well-presented, and I would expect to pay for it no matter what the source.)

I WANT to look at this objectively, but my God, gimme some help here, you "pro" people. Quit worrying about the starving horses in China, and the fat amateurs, and get Anky to fund the DVD and book that presents her side as clearly and convincingly as Heuschmann has done. And then don't be coy about making ppl hunt all over the internet and translate from Dutch or something. This is international business, put it in English and German and on video, with all the bells and whistles.

If you want to convince ppl of your views, then present your views in a convincing way.

Anky doesn't get a free pass from this simple fact. She and Sjef have just coasted on their reputations till now. Heuschmann has done his homework. Sorry, he doesn't come across as junk science. Far far from it. Maybe that's what is so scary about him, and it should be to those who disagree with him. He comes across as a rational, experienced, educated horseman and scientist.

And IF all anyone can say is I'm an idiot to think so, then I wash my hands of you.

You post like so many others- just represents what the average amateur perceives as 'correct'.
I think there is a huge gap between those that ride and train horses and those that piddle around at first level and live in their mind with having 'trained horses' and 'knowing what's good for them'. You know what's good for a horse is very simple, it's just like for people- the pyramid of needs, first food and shelter, then some kind of a job- that matches the skills and talents- a positive and fostering environment and an increase in demands and the ability to show the growth- physically and mentally. It's definitely not rocket science.

Based on that- if your post is based on the 'classy' Epona video - then I must say it's not enough information to go on. If it's based on Heuschman- then the lines get a bit more muddled because he does not deny riding deep as valuable and needed to put correct muscling on a horse. He- as many others- bases a lot of his work on videos and dirty documentation- because noone would let him near- who was half in their right mind. Knowing what is really done in this training is and has been a privilege reserved to those inside the circle.
Since the method is winning and producing winning horses- it will not be disclosed.
End of story- (and of course keep in mind, that there are ALWAYS bad examples on both sides of the fence, trainers that just plain overdo it and have no sensitivity, trainers that don't really understand the method because they just 'watched' someone else do it- but never really studied it...the so-called copy cats.)

no hard feelings- but also- let's keep this democratic- as long as you can't prove that at least 20 top horses have died or developed disgusting problems because of this training...you don't have enough evidence...;)!

Ghazzu

Nov. 15, 2009, 09:31 PM

One wonders why one would need a doctorate plus some sort of additional rarefied knowledge to grok the concept that cranking on a horse's head and neck is FUBAR.

Might not lead to short term death or disfigurement, might well lead to the presentation that is currently a la mode, but really--it takes little in the way of specialization to note that The Emperor Is Buck Nekkid...

ZiggyStardust

Nov. 15, 2009, 09:52 PM

You post like so many others- just represents what the average amateur perceives as 'correct'.
I think there is a huge gap between those that ride and train horses and those that piddle around at first level and live in their mind with having 'trained horses' and 'knowing what's good for them'. You know what's good for a horse is very simple, it's just like for people- the pyramid of needs, first food and shelter, then some kind of a job- that matches the skills and talents- a positive and fostering environment and an increase in demands and the ability to show the growth- physically and mentally. It's definitely not rocket science.

Somehow I believe that "those that ride and train horses" can still be capable of errors in judgment. Having spent significant time around a few people at the top levels in eventing, and seen someone who is otherwise typically a consummate horsewoman make a colossal error in judgment resulting in the death of horse, I know this to be true. I've also seen someone near the top, who should know better, regularly mistreat horses who did not bend to her will; from her perspective, her use of the whip and spurs were perfectly acceptable, and her horses were otherwise cared for impeccably. Just because poor judgment can sometimes be made so spectacularly evident in eventing does not mean that people at the top of the game in dressage aren't capable of same.

Kids can know right from wrong, even if they're just kids, and may differ in opinion from adults, because they are able to maintain perspective. This is an oversimplification, of course, but then again so is your argument here.

I'd also like to add that I'm grateful that the eventing pros and fellow amateurs are much more gracious in their posts. The amateur bashing that goes on in some of the dressage forum threads is shameful.

ToN Farm

Nov. 15, 2009, 11:07 PM

I do not see the convincing, well-presented books and DVD's that explain WHY Heuschmann is wrong, or WHY the Epona videos are so evil.

That may be because nobody cares enough to take the time to argue with him. Why should the RK people have to prove that their system is non abusive? It's just ridiculous. What if someone decides a bit is abusive. Then would you want all the people using bits to provide a thesis proving why bits are ok?

As time goes on, I dislike Heuschmann more and more. They're all in cahoots; him, Sustainable Dressage, Epona, and some others. I wouldn't be surprised that Epona provided some of the photos for Sustainable's site. It's a lucrative conspiracy.

mbm

Nov. 15, 2009, 11:12 PM

oh come on ToN! so it is okay for everyone to make money except for those that are anti rollkur? once they do it is a conspiracy?

maybe it is ALL a conspiracy - i mean read Sabine's posts where she says it is all hush hush and no one will tell.... and now here it is a conspiracy between Dr H, Epona and Sustainable Dressage.

wow.

eta : i will say it is ALL marketing and selling to an audience.... what AVG, Sjef, the FEI, Dr. H, COTH, et al - all marketing to a certain niche. it is the modern way.....

cant see how that has any bearing on anything... are we going t say that only people who do things for free are believable?

sorry - edit one more time... ToN - have you listened to Heuschmann? I ask because i disliked him too -0 a lot - before i heard him talk.... once i heard him talk i got where he was coming from a lot better. I may not agree with everything he says - but at least i "get it" now.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 15, 2009, 11:13 PM

Quit worrying about the starving horses in China, and the fat amateurs, and get Anky to fund the DVD and book that presents her side as clearly and convincingly as Heuschmann has done.

I actually do worry more about starving horses, slaughter issues, and yes, fat amateurs flopping around on their suffering mounts' backs because these issues are more pervasive and, in my view, frequently more abusive than any rollkur practiced by a minuscule percentage of the riding population.

Bats79

Nov. 16, 2009, 05:59 AM

Knowing what is really done in this training is and has been a privilege reserved to those inside the circle.
Since the method is winning and producing winning horses- it will not be disclosed.

Now that says it all. It's a secret, it doesn't bare scrutiny. It won't stand up to the unwashed publics sense of morality?

It's a secret because we make winners and you can't!

Gee - what a lovely system.

Nothing to do with having the talent to bring out the best in an excellent horse but instead secret training methods.

slc2

Nov. 16, 2009, 06:46 AM

Sorry, Sabine, but I don't find your argument/logic any more satisfying or productive than the other side's.

I don't think the anti side has sufficient evidence yet to change this practice. I find Heuschmann's stuff junk. Frankly. Yes, junk. The studies that have been done were not properly designed; they have too many holes in their design. Junk. To me, yes. Not just his, all of them. I think the conclusions about raising/lowering areas of the back based on putting a horse in side reins on a treadmill are pointless and irrelevant.

They convince people who are already convinced. They are preachin' to the choir.

Without value? Oh no. You get me entirely wrong if you think so. I think they are not only interesting but also extremely important. Finding out how NOT to do a study is just as important as having a good study. You don't get good results without having some junk first. They're a start, like stopping a half mile after a stop sign and getting a ticket is a start on driving better.

The 'it wins' just doesn't work for me. I've seen people use that argument too many times in business. 'It wins' doesn't win with me.

'It is secret so it's bad' doesn't make any sense to me either.

'The judges demand it' is just smoke and mirrors and nonsense. We ourselves are responsible for how we prepare our horses to compete. No, I don't mean I'm an elite rider, Egon, I mean that 'it's what the judge wants' is a copout, at all levels. This is the same excuse used for jugging horses and for whipping them behind the barn in piaffe. YES the judge wants the horse to lift his legs in piaffe, but you CAN produce that other ways. YES it's hot out and the test is hard, but you COULD fit the horse up more and train and ride better and clip him, instead of jugging him.

'It's abusive' is an opinion. A gal here also thought it was abusive to leave fly masks on horses in the fall. Others think 'on the bit' is abusive. What's WRONG with 'an opinion'? It's very easy to discard it by just countering that 'it's an opinion'.

In my case, the trainers I worked with said it was not a productive method, and I accepted that respectfully as a highly valued opinion, and so did not use the technique.

Opinions are not bad. Opinions, especially of those who train GP horses and compete at higher levels, carry a lot of weight.

But they are not a way to make an organization change its rules and make successful trainers change how they train. There are just too many people using the technique. If 99.99% trained without hyperflexion, it would be different.

Name calling doesn't work either. We have seen 20 years of that; we have ample proof. At this point, the name calling serves only personal agendas, holier than thou agendas, it serves only anger. It's already been proven that it will not end the practice. How? It's been going on for 20 years, that's how.

The only person who I feel has a persuasive argument is Steffen Peters. 'It looks rough at times and I don't want to do that' is fine with me, it is a feeling and an opinion, but from a highly placed elite rider.

I can accept a trainer being 'rough' if the horse bolts, runs through the aids or acts obnoxiously disobedient.

And even more, 'I win without doing that' is a hell of a lot of persuasive.

Steffen Peters buys and sells a lot of horses, and serves as agent for many more. He is prominent in the US organizations, and hopefully gains prominence in the international organizations (FEI, WADA). He trains many horses, and many more students. I am convinced that his quiet, persistent, logical, circumspect approach will do far more than all the name calling and 'exposes' have for 20 years.

But even more, will the fact that he wins. He is a media darling, a winner, and at the top of his game. People respect him. He rides for the team. HE WINS.

There are, of course, plenty of people who take advantage of people's emotions, who beat their chests and cry that they don't do hyperflexion so write them a check. Not all of them have something useful to offer as an alternative.

But Steffen Peters. He makes a lie of the argument that it's necessary to use hyperflexion in order to win at the top levels, and of the argument that i's necessary because it produces something unique no other technique can.

He is able to produce a winning score at the top levels of sport without hyperflexion; there goes the main argument of the proponents.

slc2

Nov. 16, 2009, 07:04 AM

You...you're kidding, right? What difference does it make if Ravel is a stallion or not? What makes a difference is that the damned animal goes out there and wins and wins and wins, and Peters doesn't warm him up with his chin on his chest. THAT'S what makes the difference.

Thomas_1

Nov. 16, 2009, 07:52 AM

ArthurGuinness

Nov. 16, 2009, 09:39 AM

"Top dressage horses lead a very pampered existence with the best equipment, feed and stabling that money can buy"

Ok then so because very well off children have the best clothes, dine at the best restaurants, and live in the nicest homes and their parents beat them it is ok. Who cares they have best home money can buy!!
Also there is research regarding the damage hyperflexion causes! From back issues to scaring on the tounge and roof of the mouth just to name a few.

Also the author compairing beginner ammys to pros is a pretty low blow. The beginner will eventually get it and stop bouncing on their horses back and catching them in the mouth. Pros are the ones we look up to and learn from. They set an example. If pros keep setting examples like Mr. Kittle and Anky there are going to be alot of abused horses out there.

canyonoak

Nov. 16, 2009, 10:47 AM

Well, THIS video certainly shows training methodology that promotes longevity!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoPG5KZTay4

I love the purity of the gaits and the calmness and the harmony.

If there is a group I want to outlaw, it is boys with their toys.

Along with everyone using emotionally driven opinions based on little knowledge and experience.

ToN Farm

Nov. 16, 2009, 12:34 PM

Agree CY. I think they ought to provide scientific evidence that what they are doing is not abusive. Isn't dressage supposed to look like a horse is doing exercises of his own accord?

It really amazes me how differently we all view things. I find that video totally disgusting and ugly. What's more, it serves no purpose.

mbm

Nov. 16, 2009, 12:51 PM

hey guys? two wrongs don't make a right - y'all know that.

I really am sorry that some of you are feeling so defensive. honestly. it makes me sad that dressage is so split apart on this. :(

I just hope we are able to come to some kind of solution that doesn't pit one method against the other and that the welfare of the horse is always paramount....

i do know we all want that.

egontoast

Nov. 16, 2009, 12:56 PM

I'm guessing that

(a) there has been no scientific study of the wear and tear and stress on those hocks and no interest in doing so- IT"S KLASSIKAL so it is GOOD!and

(b) there is no drug testing at those exhibitions ( as in testing the fat horses that are asked to work those hocks so hard , and

(c) anyone see any up and open, reach for heaven , open throatlatches there? HMM? and

(d)Any polls at the highest point? Oh, right, they are stallyons with cresty necks but if they are stallions competing at the International level they must have the poll at zee highest point at all times anyway!

ToN Farm

Nov. 16, 2009, 01:11 PM

MBM, the fact is that many of those that are up in arms about RK would love that video. Some [from udbb] even paid to go see them in person.

Of course two wrongs don't make a right, but it just seems to me that focus should be placed on where the majority of abuse of horses is happening, not the 100 or so (probably not that many) people that train in RK. That's the part that I just don't understand.

I'm not even sure that it is really RK that is the issue with many of the groups lobbying against it. I think it is this classical bunch trying to get back to following 'the rules' even though they don't even show and it doesn't even affect them. All this caring about preserving the classical art. We're not going to go back to that, so people need to accept it.

The rules need to be changed (since they aren't followed and likely never will be in my lifetime). Or, maybe they should just ban the double bridle. RK would be harder to do in a snaffle and there might be less blue tongues.

siegi b.

Nov. 16, 2009, 01:33 PM

mbm - the anti RK folks always point to the SRS and similar schools as the "classical" way of educating your dressage horse. We show you a video of one of those "classical" session that you don't like and all of a sudden it's "two wrongs don't make a right??" Is that the best you can do?

Where's the petition to ban Andalusian training as seen there? Where's your cry to action for these poor horses? Why don't you post that video on TOBB? See what kind of response you get there...

Why get so excited about one category but not the other?

And I'm still with Yankeelawyer on the issue of overweight riders bouncing on the backs of their little horses.... No, those riders hardly ever lose the weight, so the "abuse" never quits. But then why would mbm worry about a horse's back that is absolutely not designed to carry weight, when there's a "nuchal ligament" that nobody understands but that obviously is being misused by the top three riders in the world?

You guys have way too much time on your hands....

Ghazzu

Nov. 16, 2009, 01:55 PM

Right. Oooh. Nuchal ligament--very mysterious.
No one without advanced training could possibly understand the concept of a big elastic.

Karoline

Nov. 16, 2009, 02:02 PM

"No one without advanced training could possibly understand the concept of a big elastic"

Especially a vet like you or Kareen, Ghazzu. :-)

And, of course its not ONE big elastic. Its TWO big elastics.

siegi b.

Nov. 16, 2009, 02:26 PM

Ghazzu - it's so unbecoming to play dumb... You know darned well that the majority of horse folks have no clue when you mention a nuchal ligament, where (hopefully) all of them could point to the proper spot when ask the "back" question.

.... and Karoline, thanks for clarifying the "TWO elastic band issue" for all the vets on this forum.. :lol::lol::lol:

Pony Fixer

Nov. 16, 2009, 02:41 PM

Karoline, Ghazzu *is* a vet.

While I would never pay EponaTV, I fail to see how one good and one poor piaffe side by side proves that RK is bad. I see lots of bad piaffe, most produced without RK. And I've seen at least one incredible piaffe that (I assume, haven't witnessed) was produced with RK.

bort84

Nov. 16, 2009, 03:16 PM

For starters, though there are extremists on both sides, let's try not to assume that all people that are "anti-rollkur" are all idiot novices that have no clue what horse training often involves...

I don't like rollkur, though I tend to think of it in the same way Steffen Peters apparently said (I hadn't seen that quote until someone posted it here, but that's how I feel) - it looks rough, and I'd rather not use it. It looks like a technique that you should see at late night breed show warm ups. It's not something I care to see used by top dressage riders with enough experience to find a better way.

At some point, I think there may be evidence to show that it causes certain physical issues, but that's not my main reasoning for disliking it. Do a study on a lot of things we ask horses to do (jumping, upper level dressage, eventing, racing), and you're going to see a LOT of wear and tear on our otherwise happy mounts. I would certainly be interested to see a proper study done on a group of upper level dressage horses that could pinpoint whether there is physical stress or damage that is only apparent where rollkur has been used.

Either way, I still don't care for RK. Again, do I think PK and AVG are horse abusers? No. I think they are very smart and otherwise well trained professionals who've been convinced (by themselves or others) that this method is okay. I think both of them may have found the method distasteful if someone like Sjef hadn't presented is as an option.

Also, I'm anti RK but I'm not a crazy Klassikal person or whatever. I love the teachings of the SRS as far as I can tell from reading people like Podhajsky. I'm sure he had some ugly days too, but I would bet he would have been against RK. That doesn't instantly mean I'm going to look at every example someone calls "classical" and think it's beeeautiful.

I won't assume those of you who think RK is okay are all crazy horse abusers (seems unlikely) if we can also try not to make the asuumption that all anti-RK people are blathering idiots who's only experience with "real" horse training is showing their minis in halter classes. Though, honestly, if they didn't like what they saw in the PK video (yes, 10 minutes is plenty for me to make that determination whether Epona has 120 minutes or not), I can understand and wouldn't pick on them for being less knowledgeable than me.

Also, it's interesting to learn about horse anatomy. Only good things can come from us being more knowledgeable about our horses. I had no problem understanding what a nuchal ligament was when I read about it. Certainly it's not in everyone's horsey vocab just yet, but it's not that much harder to figure out than a stifle or knee joint, it's just been less discussed = ) Human athletes got a lot of benefit from our better scientific understanding of how the body works during various sport activities. The same has been true for equine athletes and will continue to be.

Oh, and I never did much care for Matinee either, but I didn't chalk that up to RK training (does Andreas Helgstrand use that much?) she just wasn't my kind of dressage horse. Not all tense horses are tense because of RK.

siegi b.

Nov. 16, 2009, 03:53 PM

bort84 - You and I are a lot closer in our opinions than you might think..... I'm not crazy about the way RK looks and what it could possibly do to horses, however, I think there is a lot less RK than what some of the anti RK folks would try to make us believe, and until I see some medical research that makes sense I will remain on the fence about it.

I don't have a problem discussing the effects of certain styles of riding on both, the horse and the rider, but I do have a problem when this turns into a witch hunt with internet petitions, slo mo video, inflammatory photography, and incendiary rhetoric, among other things.

It shouldn't be "guilty until proven innocent", but that certainly seems to be the modus operandus employed by the majority of anti RK posters.

Just my opinion....

bort84

Nov. 16, 2009, 04:28 PM

Ghazzu

Nov. 16, 2009, 04:51 PM

Especially a vet like you or Kareen, Ghazzu. :-)

And, of course its not ONE big elastic. Its TWO big elastics.

Well, if you want to split semantic hairs, consider the lamellar portion, and it's even more than two...

I don't think it's beyond the ken of the average amateur to know what and where the structure is.
Most 4-H and Pony Club kids do...

Karoline

Nov. 16, 2009, 06:06 PM

Oops, I think my attempt at humor went south. I was answering this part: " No one without advanced training could possibly understand the concept of a big elastic" and making the point that you are a vet, as is Kareen and you are exactly right there is nothing mysterious about the nuchal ligament.

Personally, I like your sense of your humor a lot. And your patience.

I was pointing out that there are two because my experience is that most riders who have heard the word nuchal ligament dont know they are a pair. Same folks usually think the cervical spine is housed just under the crest of the neck and that the horse's brain is the size of a walnut.

Fixerupper

Nov. 16, 2009, 06:28 PM

think the horse's brain is the size of a walnut.

It's not???

Cielo Azure

Nov. 16, 2009, 06:44 PM

It's not???

Ever see a 532 gram (2.3 cup) walnut?

Bats79

Nov. 16, 2009, 06:57 PM

Well, to start with the exhibition is not the warmup ring of an FEI dressage event. If I saw "that sort of thing" (which ToN and CY find so disgusting) happening at a dressage competition I'd be calling the TD over and complaining too. As it is I would no more compare this exhibition with FEI dressage anymore than I would compare reining.

However, if you are going to pick fault with everything that the SRS in Vienna, the Cadre Noir and (I'm sorry that I've forgotten the names) the Spanish and Portugues classical training enclaves do then you'll have to start a new thread and explain your reasoning in greater detail.

Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure in watching a younger stallion at the SRS being trained for airs above the ground, so I have no idea how long they spend with the side reins short - but I certainly didn't see any side reins as short as the pony in the "Power & Paint issue). But I would expect that keeping anyhorse so collected for more than 10 mins would be pushing the limits on harshness.

So I'm one of those people who breeds warmbloods for dressage, eventing and showjumping and who teaches dressage and showjumping that you would infer was a "Klassical fanatic" because I would pay to go and see these riders and horses perform. Prefereably NOT in an exhibition like this one because I think there is way too much going on for proper study and absorbtion.

Least I know what I believe in and can't be accused of sitting on the fence.

Edited to add that the Cadre Noir horses are all "in hand" without side reins at all. And the SRS horses all have drop nosebands that are loose enough for the horse to take a treat or put it's tongue over the bit to resist excessive pressure. Not too fond of the other horses although I did note that one horse that was waiting for a moment had the side reins disconnected.

Karoline

Nov. 16, 2009, 08:05 PM

From a Jan 2009 dissection:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n68/Panacheart/DissectionofneckNov2008164.jpg

Karoline

Nov. 16, 2009, 08:10 PM

From Dec 2008 dissection

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n68/Panacheart/NuchalLigament2Nov2008019.jpg

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 16, 2009, 08:29 PM

Well, if you want to split semantic hairs, consider the lamellar portion, and it's even more than two...

I don't think it's beyond the ken of the average amateur to know what and where the structure is.
Most 4-H and Pony Club kids do...

I admit that I was not familiar with the term, but I don't need to know what it is called to understand when a particular practice is potentially damaging to a horse's back.

Not to encourage cries of "two wrongs don't make a right," just out of curiosity I am wondering how the anti-RK posters feel about 3-Day eventing at the elite levels (horses DIE on course in that discipline), or racing, or even just plain showjumping, where landing from a fence places tens of thousands of pounds of stress on the front legs. Just curious.

Bluey

Nov. 16, 2009, 08:45 PM

I admit that I was not familiar with the term, but I don't need to know what it is called to understand when a particular practice is potentially damaging to a horse's back.

Not to encourage cries of "two wrongs don't make a right," just out of curiosity I am wondering how the anti-RK posters feel about 3-Day eventing at the elite levels (horses DIE on course in that discipline), or racing, or even just plain showjumping, where landing from a fence places tens of thousands of pounds of stress on the front legs. Just curious.

Good questions.

As a gymnast, we used to hyperstretch in warm ups and after a work out also, sometimes for long time, so we could be more flexible when training or performing.

I wonder how many other athletes do that, in what forms, for how long and if it is considered detrimental or even abusive?

Karoline

Nov. 16, 2009, 09:16 PM

I dont think you can compare human stretching with horses - we are not built the same.

There is something else that I have been thinking about regarding this question and it concerns breathing.

In yoga or dancing or any form of extreme flexing, how you use your breath is very important to creating and deepening the posture in a healthy manner.

But, we cant teach our horses to use their breath this way or that way, so when we ask for extreme postures and the horse blocks its breath, what is it doing to its body? And even if they dont block, how does it compare to our ability to control and use the breath?

Ghazzu, your thoughts welcome.

Ghazzu

Nov. 16, 2009, 09:48 PM

n yoga or dancing or any form of extreme flexing, how you use your breath is very important to creating and deepening the posture in a healthy manner.

"But, we cant teach our horses to use their breath this way or that way, so when we ask for extreme postures and the horse blocks its breath, what is it doing to its body? And even if they dont block, how does it compare to our ability to control and use the breath?

Ghazzu, your thoughts welcome."

I think that's a very interesting observation.

ToN Farm

Nov. 16, 2009, 09:56 PM

just out of curiosity I am wondering how the anti-RK posters feel about 3-Day eventing at the elite levels (horses DIE on course in that discipline), or racing, or even just plain showjumping, where landing from a fence places tens of thousands of pounds of stress on the front legs. Just curious.They probably would find fault with those examples as well. It doesn't matter what horses abuses you find or how serious or how many, the fact is that this bunch wants to focus on RK and that's that. You can see examples of this on all the various boards. They just change the subject when it suits them. (Example: that horrible 4 ecoles video)

slc2

Nov. 16, 2009, 10:20 PM

The most extreme anti's dislike almost everything, hyperflexion is just part of what they don't like. The double bridle is cruel...eventing is cruel, classical dressage is cruel...Saddle trees, bits, horse shoes are cruel - and also 'unnatural'. Once a gal like that told me that braiding the horse's mane was abusive. And unnaturall! For many of these guys the only thing that's really ok is admiring the horse as it eats grass, people who show only do it because they actually hate horses...etc etc.

Then as you move back along the spectrum you start to see more things being 'ok'. Some people, the only thing they object to is hyperflexion.

Bats79

Nov. 17, 2009, 12:12 AM

Not to encourage cries of "two wrongs don't make a right," just out of curiosity I am wondering how the anti-RK posters feel about 3-Day eventing at the elite levels (horses DIE on course in that discipline), or racing, or even just plain showjumping, where landing from a fence places tens of thousands of pounds of stress on the front legs. Just curious.

I've got 10 colts aged between 18 months and 30 months out in a 20 acre paddock with logs, creek bed, water hole, trees and stumps in it. Well within smelling and seeing distance are mares and foals and fillies. Those boys play rough. They gallop around until they are wet with sweat, they kick each other, rear up and spin on the hindlegs, bite each other on the knees while a 3rd one tries to muscle in on the game. They come up with swellings and bruises, bite and kick marks.

They certainly put themselves under as much pressure as the horses in the "4 classical schools video clip".

But I NEVER see one of them go for more than a few strides in an "over bent" and on the forehand position. Sometimes they stretch long and low while trotting but they never remain in a "rollkur" position for more than a stride or two. A) they can't see where they are going and B) they need their balance on the hindquarter so they can turn and stop etc.

Eventing - while a high risk activity - rarely asks a horse to do anything outside its "willingness" factor, except on those horrendous occaisions when you see a rider pushing on an injured or tired horse and surely there is a TD who's JOB it is to make sure that doesn't happen (or if it does to demand reprisal).

I also happen to be a fan of barefoot trimming because I've seen a few horses rehabilitated from unsoundness with a trimming method that the owners can continue to AFFORD whereas the rehab farrier was going to bankrupt them.

mbm

Nov. 17, 2009, 01:11 AM

They probably would find fault with those examples as well. It doesn't matter what horses abuses you find or how serious or how many, the fact is that this bunch wants to focus on RK and that's that. You can see examples of this on all the various boards. They just change the subject when it suits them. (Example: that horrible 4 ecoles video)

who exactly are you talking to? me? bort? karoline? others? i agree there are many anti folks who get a bit carried away.... but not everyone does. (same goes for the opposition too)

plus, not sure about others, but i find that having to "defend" my opinions tends to make any ensuing post seem much more strident that it is meant to or started out as.... in other words the act of "defending" an opinion has a tendency to make the opinion much bigger that it ever was....

re: other disciplines/abuse -
i personally know very well what i consider to be beyond that line. and it is not discipline specific. however, dressage is my discipline of choice... and i feel that my energies are best spent in my discipline of choice.

probably each of us has different ideas of where the "line" is. clearly you and others feel not so happy about the thought of non dressage folks having a voice in the rollkur debate .... so how do you think other disciplines would feel if a dressage person started barging in and telling them what to do?

dont you think they would (rightly) point to dressage and say "clean up your own backyard first? ?

there is a LOT of unkind, hurtful, abusive, etc treatment of animals in this world. i do what i can, where i feel i can make a difference.
that is all anyone can do.

as for the 4 ecoles video - i am pretty sure that was posted here by
canyonoak, and on udbb by another "pro" person...

sorry just some rambling by an exhausted me. may not make too much sense...

Sabine

Nov. 17, 2009, 01:52 AM

Sabine, interesting perspective. Not sure if I fully understand your personal opinion though.

It seems to me that you might be saying that "if" folks are cranking in the head of their horse and it's winning high level and providing it's not killing horses then that's fine and dandy and warrants no scrutiny or questioning.

"If" that's the case, then I absolutely disagree with you.

Horses can and do win high level without their head cranked and forced so their nose is pulled in between their legs or up their backside!

Training methods of reputable high level professionals are generally welcomed to scrutiny. I'd personally be seriously concerned if a trainer said they did something they wouldn't want people to know about. That in itself rings a huge alarm bell to me.

A horse doesn't have to die for something to be wrong and detrimental to it's welfare or for folks to be rightly concerned.

Makes no difference what equestrian discipline it's not a case of the end justifying the means no matter what the consequence is.

Good professionals and good high level competitors ought in my opinion to want to win AND ensure that the long term health and welfare of the horse is well managed and also that they ensure their chosen sport or discipline is positively positioned to the general public.

If they don't do that and are doing furtive things that they don't want others to know about, then they should be prepared for the resulting flak and criticism.

Thomas- thank you for addressing me with respect and tactfully. My response was highly tongue in cheek- just to see the responses and as predicted- they weren't many that zeroed in on what I said. So no dialogue really developed.
I ride deep- I don't ride RK - I don't know how to do this correctly. Thus I won't do it. I have knowledge of several international riders and their practices and I can vouch for their excellent superior care of the horse and its wellbeing to the degree that most of us never imagined. I know that the true qualified RK riders are very few and my intuition tells me that it is a very touch and feel type adventure...very few know how to do it right.And there are many that venture into this without the skill or respect to the horse or true riding skill.
BUT!!! I do condem anyone that uses the internet to destroy someones career or way of living without fundamental proof and more.
I find it distasteful and disgusting- it is true gutter method and more and it is designed to get the buy-in of innocent amateur riders who 'love horses' yet it destroys lives...for what? something that is totally unproven to this day.
I dont like PK's video but I don't see violence or abuse- and I know that the horse had a big tongue problem wayy before he ever came to Patrick- PK made him a respectable stallion...a horse that has very good scores and is healthy and does perform-

PS: have you ever ridden a horse in RK schooling frame and brought it up to competition frame flawlessly and performed well??? I tried and couldn't do it...:(!!

I think that's the only question we have to really think through...done without violence, spur or other excessive force...

Thomas_1

Nov. 17, 2009, 02:46 AM

I very much doubt that a bulletin board would "destroy someon's career".

No I've never ridden in RK frame. I find it thoroughly distasteful.

Discobold

Nov. 17, 2009, 06:44 AM

I very much doubt that a bulletin board would "destroy someone's career."

No, perhaps not. But certainly there are people who would like to influence the FEI and the outcome of any investigation with emotion and extreme rhetoric. Perhaps I look at it differently because I'm an attorney who passionately believes in "due process" (regardless of whether I like the outcome) but I hate the lynch mob mentality.

I don't use rollkur, and I'm not going to take a position that what PK does in that video is right (or wrong). But I don't need to defend PK or RK to know that this witch hunt is ugly.

Bluey

Nov. 17, 2009, 07:08 AM

No, perhaps not. But certainly there are people who would like to influence the FEI and the outcome of any investigation with emotion and extreme rhetoric. Perhaps I look at it differently because I'm an attorney who passionately believes in "due process" (regardless of whether I like the outcome) but I hate the lynch mob mentality.

I don't use rollkur, and I'm not going to take a position that what PK does in that video is right (or wrong). But I don't need to defend PK or RK to know that this witch hunt is ugly.

That is what I was also trying to say, just not expressed as well as you did there.

RK came after I rode any higher level dressage horses, so can't talk from direct experience.
The way the debate went, with the "abuse!" cries and threats to the fellow in the video and the hunt for any other picture or video that even hits to RK to call "see, abuse!", it does paint a scary picture of those pushing their anti RK agenda.

I am glad those anti's are not on my side.:eek:
I would have to be apologizing for them.
I consider haughty comments about RK, when we just don't have all the information about this we should have to make them, to be less than informed.
I think that RK is being dismissed by many as guilty before it had a chance to prove if it may be innocent after all, which it may or not be.

That unfairness is what finally brought me to this discussion.

I consider it unseemingly to take the ball and run with it, directly harming those in their way without a care, as the anti RK people have done.
Accusing before you have the facts in is not well received by most sensible people.
Witch hunt, mob mentality, those I just don't like and I will speak up about that just as forcefully as some do about RK.;)

Each one of us is entitled to our opinions, right?:)

slc2

Nov. 17, 2009, 07:20 AM

I'm not so sure I mind a successful elite trainer who competes at that level being passionate about it. To me that's ok and I think it just suggests that they are serious about what they do. Such folks tend to make very strong, passionate statements about what they do and how they do it. And they tend to feel very strongly about things.

Theodorescu didn't say he felt concerned about a few judges not scoring down horses sufficiently for an over cadenced collected trot, he tore his hair out, shouted and resigned from the FEI committee - some say, largely over that issue. A very passionate person who just felt very strongly. I think a person in his position is entitled to sound off.

I thinkk people are entitled to say they don't like it or don't want to use hyperflexion. I think what is causing a problem is the accusations and the threats. I think they're actually actively PREVENTING a solution and shutting down dialogue AND progress.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 17, 2009, 08:53 AM

I've got 10 colts aged between 18 months and 30 months out in a 20 acre paddock with logs, creek bed, water hole, trees and stumps in it. Well within smelling and seeing distance are mares and foals and fillies. Those boys play rough. They gallop around until they are wet with sweat, they kick each other, rear up and spin on the hindlegs, bite each other on the knees while a 3rd one tries to muscle in on the game. They come up with swellings and bruises, bite and kick marks.

They certainly put themselves under as much pressure as the horses in the "4 classical schools video clip".

But I NEVER see one of them go for more than a few strides in an "over bent" and on the forehand position. Sometimes they stretch long and low while trotting but they never remain in a "rollkur" position for more than a stride or two. A) they can't see where they are going and B) they need their balance on the hindquarter so they can turn and stop etc.

Eventing - while a high risk activity - rarely asks a horse to do anything outside its "willingness" factor, except on those horrendous occaisions when you see a rider pushing on an injured or tired horse and surely there is a TD who's JOB it is to make sure that doesn't happen (or if it does to demand reprisal).
.

I breed elite horses and I don't think I could claim with a straight face that anything they do in casual play in the field approximates the demands of advanced level 3-Day eventing. As for willingness, if horses had the cognitive ability to analyze the risk posed by the various courses they are being asked to jump by their trusted riders, perhaps they would not be so willing (and indeed sometimes they are not anyway).

I actually don't think willingness is the issue in extreme equestrian sport or in RK. Horses trust humans and part of the abuse, to the extent there is any, is the exploitation of that trust. I don't think you can make a very compelling argument that RK is wrong because it is outside a horse's "willingness" factor - clearly they are willing to some degree or they would not submit.

Fixerupper

Nov. 17, 2009, 09:05 AM

That unfairness is what finally brought me to this discussion.

At no time, in any of the multitude of threads about RK/HF here, did I read any posts that actively supported the use of the method. With no exception, including mine, the rebuttal was to the strident and emotional accusations of cruelty and abuse.

In fact, I believe that Epona tv's inflammatory linking of the 'tongue video' with the use of RK/HF and the unsubstantiated accusations of two hours of unrelenting use of the practice was 'tabloid journalism' and supremely unfair to Pattrik Kittel.

A well-reasoned (and educated) objection to the use of the method may very well be effective in curbing its use. 'Lynch mob outrage' only hurts individuals (and, in my opinion, the sport...) and does not serve the horses in the sport.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 17, 2009, 10:58 AM

Well stated, Fixerupper

bort84

Nov. 17, 2009, 12:22 PM

I think what is causing a problem is the accusations and the threats. I think they're actually actively PREVENTING a solution and shutting down dialogue AND progress.

Yes.

I don't like RK. However, I also think the "OMG, IT'S ABUSIVE AND CLEARLY PK/AVG/EG IS A TERRIBLE HUMAN BEING" are certainly preventing any sort of reasonable solution to this issue.

I would absolutely like the FEI to step in on this (the RK issue), but that doesn't mean I think PK needs any sort of official reprimand, as there are no real rules about RK yet. Sure, there are vague rules about what constitutes "abuse" according to the FEI, (and I could see RK potentially falling within the FEI's description of abuse, as it's quite vague) but nothing is specific.

So please, all of us anti-RK people are not lynch mobs who think horses should just be pretty ponies grazing in the yard. I just find RK distasteful, especially in a dressage setting - it feels like seeing someone in a shadbelly showing up and using nasty WP curbs, draw reins, and string shackles... It just doesn't make sense.

I am frankly shocked that any international pro is using this method where the public can see them. I consider the warm up ring almost as much of a "show" as the actual test. I know there are ugly moments in horse training, I've been there, but I like to leave that stuff at home. I don't support the use of RK at home either, but the fact that otherwise excellent horsemen are publicly using a technique that clearly belongs in the realm of draw reins, 7" curb shanks, and TWH dinner plate shoes makes me think they've been rather brainwashed about the whole issue.

If AVG had seen some nobody using RK at a show before she'd ever heard of it, I bet she'd have felt the same way - "Oh my, what is that trainer doing to that horse?"

The sticking point for me is that it's just so opposite of what dressage is about. I do have a bit of a problem of putting dressage up on a pedestal, but that image should at least be supported in public at shows. Seeing people use RK at the highest levels of competition is similar in my mind to seeing multiple top riders show up with draw reins and 6" curb shanks - it's not dressage. It's not how we do it. If the FEI can disallow all the other "gadgets" at shows, they can certainly try to define RK and tell people to leave that at home too.

***Again, this doesn't mean I think all horses should be pasture poufs, or better yet, wild and roaming free... Those kind of insults are just as counterproductive and silly as the "ZOMG, PK is a MONSTER!"

Fixerupper

Nov. 17, 2009, 12:49 PM

I just find RK distasteful, especially in a dressage setting It just doesn't make sense.

Good thoughtful comment...useful way to dialogue

I am frankly shocked excellent horsemen are publicly using a technique that clearly belongs in the realm of draw reins, 7" curb shanks, and TWH dinnerplate shoes makes me think they've been rather brainwashed about the whole issue.

Hypebole..not so useful ;)

I hear you...but you have to 'talk the talk' to be taken seriously and not be lumped with the 'rabid' antis

Just saying...:)

bort84

Nov. 17, 2009, 01:31 PM

Hypebole..not so useful ;)

I hear you...but you have to 'talk the talk' to be taken seriously and not be lumped with the 'rabid' antis

Just saying...:)

It doesn't make me rabid to consider using RK in dressage similar to using draw reins, sharp curbs, or padded shoes... Those are all fairly standard gadgets in other disciplines that are widely accepted as okay. I think it's a reasonable analogy, though obviously RK isn't actually a gadget = )

I don't think it's all that much hyperbole, either. TWHs in the big lick world wear big shoes and have 7" curbs - pros think that's okay. A lot of WP pros use sharp bits - it's accepted. A lot of saddle seat people use sharp bits (standard curbs are 5-6") and padded shoes - these are also accepted. A variety of disciplines utilize draw reins. A number of other riding "techniques" are used in other disciplines that are also widely considered to be "the way." Dressage folks tend to think many of the things I mentioned are improper in the context of dressage because they don't mesh well with the end goals of dressage (I agree). I'd say RK fits right in there - things that are acceptable in other disciplines but really have little place in dressage...

Not really exaggeration or hyperbole the way I see it. Especially since, as a former saddle seat rider, I don't have the same level of knee jerk disgust with a lot of those techniques and gadgets - though I see why they are not useful for dressage.

Perhaps this is why there is such a disconnect for me on some dressage people being okay with RK - many of us dressage folks like to rail on draw reins, sharp bits, padded shoes, and the riding techniques that are widely used in other disciplines, yet some of those same people are okay with RK. RK belongs right there with those things in my mind, and so, not with dressage. It's like, which one of these things is not like the other on Sesame Street - RK doesn't fit with other accepted dressage techniques and goals.

I was just noting the discrepency of using RK in a dressage setting - it's like Anky showing up at the World Cup warming up in draw reins or with 6 inches of foot+pads on Sal - it doesn't fit in the dressage context, though it's far from "abusive" - I don't think that's really a terrible analogy. I thought it was reasonable and not lynch mob-esque at all - again, I don't immediately see all padded shoes and all sharp bits as being horrific things, so perhaps that's why I didn't consider the analogy all that much hyperbole as you did.

Also, I like the "brainwashed" idea. If Sjef hadn't made hyperflexion okay in a dressage context, AVG, PK, and the like would not be likely to use it in public or at home. They have been brainwashed to a degree, just like other participants have been, to consider this a normal everyday dressage training technique.

Thomas_1

Nov. 17, 2009, 02:34 PM

No, perhaps not. But certainly there are people who would like to influence the FEI and the outcome of any investigation with emotion and extreme rhetoric. Perhaps I look at it differently because I'm an attorney who passionately believes in "due process" (regardless of whether I like the outcome) but I hate the lynch mob mentality.

I don't use rollkur, and I'm not going to take a position that what PK does in that video is right (or wrong). But I don't need to defend PK or RK to know that this witch hunt is ugly.
Interesting perspective.

I'm also pretty fond of due process and that includes the likes of effective engagement of stakeholders and the ability to influence and challenge in order to achieve a successful outcome.

However anyone who seriously thinks that the FEI are watching a bulletin board for the opinion of what is predominently just a load of anonymous folks with silly user names needs to arrange an appointment with a health care professional.

I hardly think that likening the noise made here to a lynch mob is relevent..... Well I'd say it's erm.... .... interesting.

IMO the noise here is no different to the sound one of my cows makes when pissing on a flat rock up on the hill tops. In other words it's as loud as a mouse farting!

Bluey

Nov. 17, 2009, 02:40 PM

Interesting perspective.

I'm also pretty fond of due process and that includes the likes of effective engagement of stakeholders and the ability to influence and challenge in order to achieve a successful outcome.

However anyone who seriously thinks that the FEI are watching a bulletin board for the opinion of what is predominently just a load of anonymous folks with silly user names needs to arrange an appointment with a health care professional.

I hardly think that likening the noise made here to a lynch mob is relevent..... Well I'd say it's erm.... .... interesting.

IMO the noise here is no different to the sound one of my cows makes when pissing on a flat rock up on the hill tops. In other words it's as loud as a mouse farting!

Someone, somewhere, is listening, to have made so many threats to that fellow, his family and horses.:eek:

How many signatures did they get for their anti petition off their thread on COTH about RK?;)

The internet seems to be at times a mighty mouse.;)

mbm

Nov. 17, 2009, 02:54 PM

did anything come from the investigation into the alleged threats to Kittel et al? If there were honest threats (and not just how would you like it if it was done to you) i do hope they found the folks responsible -

anyway the FEI released a memo today which is very non committal. have you guys seen it?

and i hate to say this - but BBs do have power.... witness the performance standards that were tabled due to the uproar on the internet. while i agree that a lot of folks voicing their opinion may not have much in the way of background, there are still lots of educated folks who are saying the same kind of thing. (Steffen P, Debbie McD, G Hueshmann, Phillp Karl, Balkenhol, etc etc etc )

and finally - missed the posts where Kittel was being witch hunted..... maybe i am reading the wrong forums?

I do wish we could talk about the issues that affect dressage without all the drama, name calling and snipping. really it makes us dressage folks look pretty bad.... and it makes any kind of dialog really hard. not everyone has all the info and making fun or ridiculing someone who you think isn't as educated as you really serves no concrete purpose.

egontoast

Nov. 17, 2009, 03:15 PM

Forget rollkur for a moment if that is possible and think about it in more abstract terms for a second.

If someone sees a training method as " abuse " and someone else sees a training method as questionable, not attractive, not ideal, but not necessarilly abuse (without more proof)

then never the twain shall meet.

It will never be sorted out by these interminable circular arguments when one side is absolutely sure it is "abuse". There is no room for discussion.

It's like the so called pro-life /pro-choice arguments. The term "pro-life" already assumes there is murder involved so those that espouse 'pro choice' are seen as aligning themselves with murderers.

Once you decide it is abuse, there is no more productive discussion possible. Apparently. But carry on.

mbm

Nov. 17, 2009, 03:21 PM

Egon - I agree with you. There is a set of folks who call it abuse...(and not all folks that are against rollkur call it abuse) i happen to think that is unproductive. the goal is to keep folks at the table... because only then will discussion happen and results come out.

and i agree that after a while these threads just turn into spitting matches to see who can be the most strident :(

that is also not productive.

ZiggyStardust

Nov. 17, 2009, 04:09 PM

IMO the noise here is no different to the sound one of my cows makes when pissing on a flat rock up on the hill tops.

:lol: But sometimes it sure makes the cow feel better.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 17, 2009, 04:51 PM

However anyone who seriously thinks that the FEI are watching a bulletin board for the opinion of what is predominently just a load of anonymous folks with silly user names needs to arrange an appointment with a health care professional.

Actually, you might be surprised at who reads these boards from time to time.

Thomas_1

Nov. 17, 2009, 05:22 PM

I'd never be surprised.

But I'd be prepared to bet you that there's no one watching it because they're thinking of developing their management strategy.

Bats79

Nov. 17, 2009, 06:22 PM

The way the debate went

What debate? So far there has only been discussion on forums where people are entitiled to their own opinion, a few petitions and an actual letter from the president of the BHSA - Good for them.

with the "abuse!" cries and threats to the fellow in the video

Of the people I know who are anti-rollkur not ONE would consider threatening P Kittel. Who has threatened him? Have charges been bought or the persons identified? People that far on the extreme are going to be just as p**ed off by the fact that he was photographed in a fur coat than his training style.

and the hunt for any other picture or video that even hits to RK to call "see, abuse!", it does paint a scary picture of those pushing their anti RK agenda.

Please show me the threads and links that point to any "overbent horse" that then refer to it as abuse.

I consider haughty comments about RK, when we just don't have all the information about this we should have to make them, to be less than informed.
I think that RK is being dismissed by many as guilty before it had a chance to prove if it may be innocent after all, which it may or not be.

Please tell me how you expect these studies to be conducted. How about a double blind with 10 identical horses trained to grand prix over a 6 year period without rollkur and 10 horses with. These horses will all be regulary scanned and x-rayed, they will have physch evaluations and general health on tests on a 6 month basis and they will all be trained by the "expert" who is one of the few in the world who is talented enough to do this study. And who will put up the 10's of millions this will cost - and is waiting 6 years a fair process for the horse or the sport.

That unfairness is what finally brought me to this discussion.

I consider it unseemingly to take the ball and run with it, directly harming those in their way without a care, as the anti RK people have done.
Accusing before you have the facts in is not well received by most sensible people.
Witch hunt, mob mentality, those I just don't like and I will speak up about that just as forcefully as some do about RK.;)

Each one of us is entitled to our opinions, right?:)

And let us not forget that since Zenephon we have been able to decide what is GOOD for the horse and what is NOT GOOD without scientific proof. But now - to defend those who choose to train with rollkur we must have scientific proof to show that this method is unfair to the horse. How about they come up with scientific proof to show that it is. And you can't count what has been done by already identified sources that are linked to the proponents of the sport - they are biased studies for rollkur just as the professional people who have spoken out are called biased against.

If we don't have that proof then we are involved in a witch hunt, we only think with "mob mentality".

Thankyou for the thumbs down to my (and many other people's) intelligence and ability to learn and read what our horse's tell us.

bort84

Nov. 17, 2009, 06:36 PM

And let us not forget that since Zenephon we have been able to decide what is GOOD for the horse and what is NOT GOOD without scientific proof.

Yes, I also feel needing studies to show RK is a nasty technique is unnecessary. There are a lot of things people do and have done to horses in the name of "training" that are determined to be poor techniques without scientific intervention.

However, the anti-RK people are the ones who initiated the "scientific" testing to show that RK is bad (as I recall). So I suppose that's why people now feel the need for scientific studies. Also, a lot of anti-RK people like to argue that RK causes long-term physical issues in the horse - in response, it's understandable that the non-anti-RK folk (to include those that are just on the fence, not necessarily pro) would like to see valid scientific tests showing this.

It's obviously highly unlikely, for reasons you stated, that we'll ever see a study that can be considered scientifically valid. However, long-term anecdotal evidence can be enough to get people thinking.

Fixerupper

Nov. 17, 2009, 08:31 PM

However, the anti-RK people are the ones who initiated the "scientific" testing to show that RK is bad (as I recall). So I suppose that's why people now feel the need for scientific studies.
Also, a lot of anti-RK people like to argue that RK causes long-term physical issues in the horse - in response, it's understandable that the non-anti-RK folk (to include those that are just on the fence, not necessarily pro) would like to see valid scientific tests showing this.

:yes:

slc2

Nov. 18, 2009, 06:44 AM

I am not sure any existing tests would show 'stress' in a horse that has been trained that way for years.

Existing tests measure how accustomed a horse is to something and how intensely the exercise works his heart and lungs, not whether the training is correct and producing a desirable performance, whether it is unnecessary and some other method could be used, or whether it makes people uncomfortable when they see it in the warmup.

Science does not, except with rare exception, in and of itself support or create, ethics.

Discobold

Nov. 18, 2009, 06:54 AM

Interesting perspective. . . <snip> . . .IMO the noise here is no different to the sound one of my cows makes when pissing on a flat rock up on the hill tops. In other words it's as loud as a mouse farting!

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Unlike some people (SLC?), I have a job and horses to ride ;) and don't get online often. You've got it - I was expressing a different perspective. We are entitled to different opinions - no? To me this has the "feel" of a lynch mob. Maybe I'm wrong, but the "FEI memo" that's being quoted suggests I may not be entirely wrong. I think your last two lines are very funny - thanks for the laugh :lol:

Bluey

Nov. 18, 2009, 07:22 AM

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Unlike some people (SLC?), I have a job and horses to ride ;) and don't get online often. You've got it - I was expressing a different perspective. We are entitled to different opinions - no? To me this has the "feel" of a lynch mob. Maybe I'm wrong, but the "FEI memo" that's being quoted suggests I may not be entirely wrong. I think your last two lines are very funny - thanks for the laugh :lol:

Do enjoy your full life with work and riding all those horses that keep you so busy, because others may not be in their lives in that enviable position any more and you too, some day, may not be able to brag about it either.
Life happens, you know...;)
We should not judge others, unless we are walking in their moccasins.:no:

I do agree with you, the tone of the anti RK posters was rather strident, the ropes were coming out, a figurative and maybe real hanging obviously in process.:eek:

I hope that, if threats were seriously made to that fellow, his family and horses, that he has hired some security for all.:(

Discobold

Nov. 18, 2009, 08:01 AM

We should not judge others, unless we are walking in their moccasins.:no:

Fair enough (and apologies if I offended)

I'm not sure I was "bragging" though - some days I would much rather not have to work :( Since I rarely post I didn't want anyone to become suspicious though I should have phrased it differently.

Bluey

Nov. 18, 2009, 08:13 AM

Fair enough (and apologies if I offended)

I'm not sure I was "bragging" though - some days I would much rather not have to work :( Since I rarely post I didn't want anyone to become suspicious though I should have phrased it differently.

I know, "bragging" was not the correct word there either, but "the devil made me do it", sorry.:eek:

I think that some of the RK images are strange and people that don't know that much about training may think right off "how terrible!

I see much of something similar in the reining horses and I too, at first, was going :eek: too.

Well, it doesn't seem to be hurting those horses, as some are still showing into their 20's without any problems.
Of course, it is not exactly the same and many other factors come to be.

I do think that horses working so deep and to n hyperflexed point, seems as far from a more natural way of going as some other extremes we ask our horses to perform, like grotesque big lick steps, or racing at top speed, or... you name it.

I disagree that such is reason enough to tar and feather people over it.:no: