What would you do??? Take the risk or walk away?

[SantanaK]

SO I've been offered a very nice 9 year old 3'6" jumper gelding who has had quite a rough year. His owner purchased him 9 months ago sound, healthy, and competing consistently for $18k. She has a farrier who trims his feet VERY short and at a very upright angle, and she takes lessons from a fairly horrific dressage trainer who lunges him very hard every time she works him.

Over the past year he has gone through "mysterious" bouts of lameness that after x-rays and blocking has narrowed down to soreness in his feet. I spoke with the B.O. today who also happens to be one of my favorite clinicians and she said she truly believes the lameness comes from poor farrier work and horsemanship and that she believes in the right hands he'll come around. I spoke with the vet who said the same thing, however added that he can't be 100% certain he doesn't have some form of soft tissue damage in his feet, or perhaps a slight arthritis in his coffin bone (although he doesn't suspect this is the case). Both agree that with 3-4 months of good farrier work and some time off in the field would bring him around.

I am a young trainer in my first two years of business. I would LOVE to have a horse already showing at this level (my barn is always full of super green beans), I do have a space for him, however I don't have a lot of "expendable" space for a retirement horse if things don't work out...

My question to all you smart COTHers, is would you take this risk or walk away (or run for the hills)??

[Dazednconfused]

Never buy someone else's problem. So in short, I wouldn't. And if I did, I would vet it out the wazoo.

[fordtraktor]

If you are planning on resale -- eh, maybe. In an ideal world the original owners would take him back if he didn't work out/I couldn't fix him. I'd be willing to do a deal where they take him back if he stays lame, but I give them half the eventual profit if he sells. This would reduce my risk of being stuck with a lame dud, and they are no worse off than if they kept him -- and maybe get some money back out of it. Might be worth seeing if the owners would consider it.

If for me to keep, no unless the owner will take him back.

Be wary of this shoeing style as the cause of the problem. I trim my horse upright and short, because if I don't he suffers from navicular pain. The trim is the only thing that DOES keep him sound. Are you sure the same can't be said for this horse? Could be the trim is hiding even more issues.

[Fixerupper]

You have to have an exit strategy if the horse doesn't come right...
Euthanasia is a bitch when dealing with a relatively young horse...even one with no future..
Bad x-rays are a re-sell killer, so take that into consideration too.

If you can stomach failure...give it a try

(I didn't call myself 'Fixerupper' for no reason ;) )

edited to add - upright angles are not bad....look at the medial/lateral balance

[enjoytheride]

Unfortunatly you have no idea if the lameness issue is as easily fixeable as you think it is. It could be a serious problem they have not discovered and he could never be sound or you could end up sinking tons of money into maintenence to keep him partially sound.

I would do a very extensive vetting including an MRI and extensive x rays and blocking unless this horse was close to free.

[Small Change]

Out of curiousity, when you say "offered," do you mean they want to give you the horse, or sell you the horse? To be honest, if I could afford the horse and it's basic upkeep, I'd give it a try. I'd also try to set realistic limits with myself regarding what I'd be willing to sink into the horse, and I'd set those limits before he arrived at my barn and I fell in love. I have no problem with bringing home fixer uppers (great term!) if I believe that I'll give them a better life than what it looks like they may be headed for otherwise. This also means that I won't put more into them than I can afford to lose, and that I'll be willing to have a hole dug for them if it comes down to that.

A perfect example is a gorgeous TB we bought off the track a few years ago. We knew that although he was sound at the time, he was coming home with a nasty slab fracture in his knee that would certainly catch up with him sooner or later. We brought him home anyways, as the price was right, and with how nasty and used up he was at the time, his prospects for finding another sucker to give him a chance were dismal.

We gave that horse 4 good years of happiness - he got fat, sassy and friendly, and was the best hack you could ask for. When his knee finally became an issue, we euthanized him even though it broke our hearts.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if monetarily and emotionally I feel I can do right by a horse with issues, I'll give it a chance.

[magnolia73]

What purpose will he serve in your business? Resale? Show horse for you? Lesson horse? IMO, it is not that impressive to see a pro doing the 3'6 jumpers on a made horse. I don't think it enhances your business much more than doing a great job with a greenie at a lower level.

If I'm hiring you to train my horse, I want to see you working well with green horses. You'd impress me more if that stall was filled with a green bean that was working well in short order. Or, get a personal prospect that can be trained to a higher level of jumpers.

As a resale, its a risk- maybe a good one if you can heal it, retrain it and get $18,000. Would the owners be annoyed? Why don't you take the horse on commission- 6 months, free board, free training- they pay vet and shoeing, you get a commision when the horse sells. That way they aren't out all of $18,000 and you aren't giving a forever home to something with a degenerative disease.

As a lesson horse... could be nice- if he is an easy ride- great to have lesson horses people can show. You'll attract more clientelle close to buying a horse if you have something that can do more than the typical schoolie. But again- he needs to be at least serviceably sound and if he needs special shoes... he may not pay his way.

[pony4me]

I'd give it a try if I were in your situation. Lots can be fixed with some time off and proper farrier work. My quarter horse, who turned out to be a great hunter came from a "lame, we can't fix it and he can't keep a shoe on" situation. He had been doing team penning, and his owner's dad did the shoeing. Good luck!

[monalisa]

Go with your gut reaction - it is always right. If you have any nagging worries, say no....

[BeastieSlave]

I bought "someone else's problem" for a pittance once, and he was absolutely the best horse! He was waaayyy nicer than I ever could have afforded if he hadn't had some problems. It took time and good farrier work to rehab him and I was lucky enough to have both...

[Come Shine]

As M73 above mentioned, it depends on the reputation you are trying to develop. As a young pro, perhaps another thing to think about is what precedent you will be setting by buying/taking this horse. It sounds like you are aiming for a actively competitive show barn.

Unless taking on 'somebody else's problem' horses is a niche you want to fill (and I absolutely think this is a very, very important niche), perhaps this wouldn't be the best advertisement for your fledgling business.

[Lucassb]

I would take the horse (assuming "offered" means free or close to it.)

It is hard to move up as a pro if all you ever sit on is your customers' green beans. It can also play havoc with your own riding.

Having something beautiful and made up to school and show will not only be enjoyable for you, but will send a message to potential customers with that kind of horse that you are someone that can be successful with a horse like theirs. If the horse is that nice, you might also be able to make some money leasing it out (once fixed) to a customer who might not be able to afford something of that quality, again good advertisement for your business IF that is the type of customer you are looking for.

I guess I am in the minority here but I see a lot of young pros who are just starting out with a small group of customers - many of whom frankly go to that young pro because they're cheaper and will work with the cheaper/greener horses that those customers can afford. There is *nothing* wrong with that, but it is a very hard type of business to survive in - and very hard to break out of that niche unless you are lucky enough to be able to both make up some of those greenies AND their riders AND get them to step up to some bigger/more competitive divisions and venues.

[nuts4cowboybutts]

Around here we learned

"Don't buy damaged goods."

[Sparky]

I'd do it if you have money to burn. Otherwise, no.

[ThirdCharm]

If he's free or ridiculously cheap, and you can stomach putting him down if he won't come around (you can't afford a pasture ornament, darn few people can these days, and there is really no point in giving away a horse that will never come sound, he'll just end up in a worse situation somewhere down the road!!), I'd say go for it.

As for a young pro showing 3'6" on a 'made' horse.... if I had a thousand bucks for every young pro who made their first big horse from scratch..... I'd starve to death in a year. The world is full of young pros who got their start with a really awesome horse someone bought for them. Is it more impressive to make your own horse from scratch? Only to those who know the difference, which are usually not the people who will drop six figures on a horse for their trainer to ride.

Jennifer

[CBoylen]

I don't understand why you want the horse in the first place. What good is a coming ten year old childrens/adult jumper to a professional? It's not of much use lame or sound, and not a very desireable resale either way either.

[twobays]

I'd pass. Mystery lameness with your own horses is tough enough...why take on more of that?

[BeastieSlave]

Some good points were made that I hadn't thought of as much from the pro standpoint.
Are you thinking about taking on this horse as something for yourself or for something you'll lease, give lessons on, or resell?

[SantanaK]

Thank you all for your advice so far. It's so refreshing to hear different views on the situation.

-The horse is offered to me for "free"
-I do have a reputation for being the fixer upper trainer in town. It helps me get many new horses to ride, and keeps me in the loop with the other trainers in town
-Although I would be the one riding this horse for the first few months (once he's sound again) to get him going and showing again, he wouldn't be a horse for me to show more a horse for me to lease to clients or have as a re-sale project.
-The lady offering him to me doesn't mind if I sell him down the road, but can only have one horse and knew from the first few weeks with this horse that he wasn't the right one for her (he was a jumper, she was a 50 year old re-rider wanting to do dressage) just a bad mix... Needless to say she doesn't want him anymore as she wants to move on to something suitable.

Hope that helps to piece the story together..
-

[jollytrak]

if you're considering this horse, agree with the gut feeling -- but ask the 'seller' for past x-rays, etc. of what has been done. ask your vet to look at the past info as well as the horse 'today'.

some think it's due to poor farrier work... have your farrier look at this horse too -- see what s/he has to say, can he work on and make his feet better? if you get this horse... it will be their 'problem' to fix.

depending on the answers to the above you might be getting a nice lesson or lease horse that could benefit your business.

[ponies123]

It doesn't make sense that the lady bought him in the first place, if she knew she wanted to do dressage why go and drop 18k on a jumper? Weird! Although I guess that is not the debate at hand.

As for taking him on, it could be a horrible thing, it could be an okay thing that works out. I don't think it's going to "make" you in terms of your career. In your situation you need to ask yourself what you will do with him if he does not come around. If you can think of a solution that you can count on, is ethical, and you can live with then I would feel okay with taking him on. Whether that is to return him to the owner (doesn't sound like that's a possibility), send him somewhere for retirement, or put him down. CH/AD jumpers are just slightly more than a dime a dozen, however, and I would not count on making any real money off of him. It may help you gain some clients who'd like to lease him and thus you can get your name out there with that crowd, but if you have ambitions to be really successful you'll hope to one day have clients doing the higher levels.

[PNWjumper]

I've taken many similar risks. All but one have paid off quite nicely. If I trusted the BO (which it sounds like you do), I wouldn't hesitate to pick him up. There are several (local)BNTs around here that I will take a lame horse from in a heartbeat with no vet check. Lots of reliance on some pretty poor farriers and no body work of any sort for some very very expensive horses. Makes for a nice resale project if you've got a good team around you.

I do agree with others who mentioned that the horse is a tough age. I really have to like a horse to take a 10yo. You've got a narrow window to resell the horse for a decent amount of money before people start thinking "old." But it sounds like it could be a nice horse for you to play around with and get over some of the bigger fences with.

Either way, good luck to you!

[lcw579]

I agree with those who say that if you have the stomach to put him down should he be unfixable than you should go for it. Sounds like he has the potential to do some good for you and in turn you will be doing some good for him - even if that ultimately means providing a kind end.

If the previous owner will release all his vet records/x-rays and your farrier has a chance to look at him before you seal the deal, even better. Just make sure you aren't taking on more than you can afford to risk.

[ThirdCharm]

Oh, and if he is a horse that CLIENTS could ride.... it is really hard to overestimate the value of a good, honest jumper that students can get on!!

Jennifer

[SantanaK]

Thank you all so much! I'm going to have a second look at him tomorrow :)

[magicteetango]

If you can afford to retire him or stomach putting him down, jump on it. If not, don't. Don't risk putting the horse in a worse situation later. Not saying YOU are the worse situation, but if you'd see yourself putting him down the road pretty easily if he doesn't come sound, don't do it.

Well mannered, trained horses aren't as common as we wish they were, especially for free. And you'd be doing him a favor.

[BridalBridle]

Looks like a great predatory opportunity to ME!!!
I seem to be the only person who feels this way.
The blocking is the gold standard but if u can't afford the loss....get a standing MRI done and find out for sure if it's soft tissue or poor farrier issue.
I'd go for it but I don't know ur financial situation and how good of a deal this horse .

[Ozone]

This horse is someone elses problem that is trying to be your problem.

Too many of us on here have heartache going on with horse we bought sound. Now they are unrideable, with the economy we cannot even give them away to good homes - or we are afraid to let them go because of where they will end up, or for some euthenization is the way things are heading/going. It is very sad and OP if you can avoid that down the road then I suggest you do it!

The horse WAS 18K - but today he is not so don't let the past price tag make you think your getting the world handed to you.

[farmgirl88]

What purpose will he serve in your business? Resale? Show horse for you? Lesson horse? IMO, it is not that impressive to see a pro doing the 3'6 jumpers on a made horse. I don't think it enhances your business much more than doing a great job with a greenie at a lower level.

If I'm hiring you to train my horse, I want to see you working well with green horses. You'd impress me more if that stall was filled with a green bean that was working well in short order. Or, get a personal prospect that can be trained to a higher level of jumpers.

As a resale, its a risk- maybe a good one if you can heal it, retrain it and get $18,000. Would the owners be annoyed? Why don't you take the horse on commission- 6 months, free board, free training- they pay vet and shoeing, you get a commision when the horse sells. That way they aren't out all of $18,000 and you aren't giving a forever home to something with a degenerative disease.

As a lesson horse... could be nice- if he is an easy ride- great to have lesson horses people can show. You'll attract more clientelle close to buying a horse if you have something that can do more than the typical schoolie. But again- he needs to be at least serviceably sound and if he needs special shoes... he may not pay his way.

While i agree with you to a certain level, all pro's should be able to have their own horse of their choice to do with what they want. They shouldnt have to be propped up on a greenie 24/7, 365.

In my honest opinion; i would have x-rays done on all 4's and get several opinions. BE SURE that there is nothing deeper in his legs than what you "THINK". If the x-rays come back OK and the opinions are good; i'd say go for it. As long as he can pass a vetting and his x-rays; id jump on the GET HIM bandwagon

[farmgirl88]

and why must be be "stomaching putting him down?"

Im sure if this horse is quiet enough, sound enough for w-t or light ring work ...he could find a home with no problem. If things dont work out...that doesnt always mean killing the horse. there are people out there who wouldnt mind a fancy ex show horse to trail ride on

[findeight]

Well, he is free and it might be worth the gamble.

BUT do you know IF he was a sound and sensible type when the lady who wanted to do Dressage bought him? Is there any thing except the word of a seller who needs to get rid of it? Can you verify any show record?

Strikes me a horse like this...IF sound and sensible...can be a nice one for a young Pro as a sort of advanced lesson and lease type. It's true the prospects for Pro showing on a level 2 jumper are restricted to schooling and local shows but it's not a bad horse to have to offer a client, especially as a lease horse. You might have a place for him and find him quite useful as you build your business.

But...you all know me on these deals. Skeptical at best. I just fear there is more to this-cannot fathom paying almost 20k for a Jumper when you really want to do Dressage. Make SURE there is not more to the story-as in he is not an easy ride and was way too much for that lady-and would be for any of your clients or as a lease or school horse. Or was never sound.

Math on this one does not work for me.

If you want him, do your homework. yeah, bet the seller is nice...so was Ted Bundy. Make sure all claims are on the level.

See if you can't verify his age too...the rule is all sale horses are 3 years older and 2 inches shorter then advertised. Be real careful.

[magnolia73]

all pro's should be able to have their own horse of their choice to do with what they want. They shouldnt have to be propped up on a greenie 24/7, 365.

Of course, but if you are short on money or stall space, fill it with whatever gets you the farthest career wise. Probably a good lesson horse, a horse with upper level capacity or a good sales prospect.

Yeah- it would be nice to have a reliable 3'6 jumper, but in the scheme of *marketing* I'm not sure it gets you that far. Don't get me wrong- all the respect in the world for riders doing the 3'6 jumpers- I sure as hell can't do it- but its not exactly a big deal for a professional to say that they won a 3'6 jumper class on their own nice horse.

I think you need to make every nickle work for you.

[Silk]

Is he free? That would be my first consideration. I would think he would come sound...but what is your intention for the horse. Is the horse super honest in that he could be used to introduce students to the "nest" height? Is this something you want for the local jumpers or as a lesson/lease horse? Do you have a backup plan in case he doesn't work out? My belief is that you must be responsible and have a plan for the animal (and dumping his at the local Thursday night auction doesn't count:) )

I can see where he might be very useful to you, depending on your clientele and your show venues.

FREE would be my key term here:)

[sidepasser]

Thank you all for your advice so far. It's so refreshing to hear different views on the situation.

-The horse is offered to me for "free"
-I do have a reputation for being the fixer upper trainer in town. It helps me get many new horses to ride, and keeps me in the loop with the other trainers in town
-Although I would be the one riding this horse for the first few months (once he's sound again) to get him going and showing again, he wouldn't be a horse for me to show more a horse for me to lease to clients or have as a re-sale project.
-The lady offering him to me doesn't mind if I sell him down the road, but can only have one horse and knew from the first few weeks with this horse that he wasn't the right one for her (he was a jumper, she was a 50 year old re-rider wanting to do dressage) just a bad mix... Needless to say she doesn't want him anymore as she wants to move on to something suitable.

Hope that helps to piece the story together..
-

Well if he is free and you can afford treatment/special shoes, etc. if he needs them and have the money to finance any training issues and then get him out there and show him..then go for it.

The filly I took for free w/o even a PPE -lol..boy do I have faith or what? turned out to have a horrid abscess and that was that. Had to put pads and shoes on her and keep the vet out for the abscess, but she's sound now and in training with my trainer, getting fitter and fitter, and will be shown in the spring.

A chance..yep..but one I took knowing I could have a four year old pasture ornament that might outlive me or a super nice show filly that could do dressage (we hope, she's certainly seems to take to it).

It's called "take a chance and hope for the best", but on your horse with his history, I'd at least have some xrays done and see if there is more going on than meets the eye. I have my own place so if filly were to have never gone sound, she would have cost me little to keep..but if you board, etc. that is a cost to factor in.

Sounds like a good boy that got matched with a person who had other interests.

[SantanaK]

Hey Everyone!

Just an update...

The horse did pass a Pre-Purchase exam a year ago when his owner purchased him. We have done new xrays which have been compared to the PPE ones and show no changes, so he is cleared that way. I spoke with the vet for a good while today, and he told me that he does believe (although can't guarantee) that the horse will be sound with good farrier work and a few months off. The horse was just done 2 weeks ago by a VERY GOOD farrier who put aluminum shoes on him upfront (barefoot behind.. the hind feet are fine).

I have known the horse on the local "A" circuit for the past few years (before this lady bought him) and he was a VERY nice horse who could jump around in the 3'6" jumper ring and the 3' Hunter ring in the same day. He is very attractive, was totally sound, and was easy enough (although he has been spoiled by his current owner and is somewhat naughty on the ground at the moment).

After discussing things with my coach, his vet, and his farrier (who I'm going to BEG to stay on as this horse's farrier) I have decided... TO TAKE HIM!

I will be bringing him home on Friday and giving him the winter to rest (with some serious ground manner training...), Farrier's Formula (recommended by the vet although I've never used it before), and some really good farrier work. I'm going to give him my absolute best and hope that in the spring he will come around. If it comes down to it I will retire him (I'll shell out pasture board if I can't find him a home) and would NEVER send a horse to auction if my life depended on it.

I will keep you all updated on how things go :)

Thank you ALL for your honest opinions, I took all of them to heart in making this decision.

[lcw579]

Great news! Can't wait to hear further updates as the new farrier works his magic.