When to use the flash attachment.

[pippa553]

Just looking for some of the reasons you would use a flash rather then a simple snaffle in young horse training?

thanks

[slc2]

If it's a horse, I'd use a flash.

[Vibrant]

slc2, can you elaborate on why?

[slc2]

At the risk of riling the Flashists? :lol:

I think it's handy, it's easy to remove if not needed, and does its job. Keeps the horse from offsetting (scissoring) its jaws, helps to stabilize the bit in the mouth; a lot of horses don't like the bit flopping around loose in the mouth, especially if the horse has a very short mouth, it helps with that. The horse can still open his mouth, react, problems are all still apparent, just stabilizes the bit, keeps the jaws from offsetting. Less trouble to clean and maintain than a dropped noseband and easier to fit, keeps the jaws looser and more mobile than a dropped noseband.

[goeslikestink]

Just looking for some of the reasons you would use a flash rather then a simple snaffle in young horse training?

thanks

would rather use an eggbutt snaffle bit and a normal caverson
a young horse just starting out doesnt need a flash as it doesnt know anything yet

look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=223453

and look here
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178116

read all page one and all links on page one

this one is on page one- read it it has all bridles and all nose bands
and has diagrams of how they work
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#kineton

make sure you read this one and understand it
bad hands make bad horses -
http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/faith/fixing_bit_evasions.asp

[pippa553]

goeslikestink - Thank you for the links! I answered my own question.

[slc2]

So everyone who uses a flash has bad hands? That's a lot of people.

[twofatponies]

The meredith manor site mentions the flash being useful for preventing the bit being pulled sideways through the horse's mouth. I never thought of that. I use a leather strap that western trainers often use to link the two rings of a snaffle bit for that purpose. Though I can't recall it ever coming into effect, even during a big unexpected maneuver or the rare "stop damn you" pulley-rein situation. Seems like a useful safety feature, though, just in case.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I'm with gls - my feeling is, if my horse is opening his mouth in the way that a flash would prevent it, I would want to know why and take steps to fix the problem.

We just have the little nub on the noseband, but the flash is useful as an extra hook type thing in the barn.

[AllWeatherGal]

Weirdly, some horses just seem to go better with a flash. It gives them comfort and confidence. Of course, those same horses will not go at all well if the flash is a smidgen too tight. Yes, I have one of those horses.

[slc2]

I've had a horse like that too. The trick is to tighten it just enough and not too much.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Weirdly, some horses just seem to go better with a flash. It gives them comfort and confidence. Of course, those same horses will not go at all well if the flash is a smidgen too tight. Yes, I have one of those horses.

awg - just curious - a TB? I know they tend to do weird things with their tongues - Ted likes to stick his out and have you play with it (the sicko), his buddy sucks on his after any treat. The geek in me immediately jumped to the correlation....

[AllWeatherGal]

DG ... no, but she might as well be for her quirks ;) ... we went thru quite a few "innovative" bits to address a very busy mouth until just winging it with a flash. But srsly, even the slightest too much makes her feel claustrophobic.

She is also happier if cross-ties are connected at the halter rings high on the cheek rather than at the noseband.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I audited a Conrad Schumacher clinic this fall and he uses a flash on all of the horses. The question was raised about flashes and while he said that a flash should not be too tight it should be used. I'm paraphrasing from memory here, but basically it ensures the horse gives through the back when it gives to the hands--otherwise the horse will do subtle evasions by opening the jaw and "giving" just in the mouth. He was very big on every movement, even the first step walking off from the halt that the horse be working through the back. I put the flash back on my bridle after not using it for years. I figure if it's not "tight" it's not hurting the horse and I'll bow to his knowledge/experience on this one.

I imagine he, the Olympic riders he's trained, and even the trainers and young riders (FEI level) I saw riding in that clinic have good hands (I assume someone is saying that flashes ruin horses, I haven't read any of the links in this thread though).

I wanted to add--I don't know that he starts horses in flashes--these were all a year or more under saddle (although there were inexperienced horses there).

[Petstorejunkie]

Just looking for some of the reasons you would use a flash rather then a simple snaffle in young horse training?

thanks
Crickets from me. I never use a flash

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I should clarify, I'm not advocating that "I" think it's an absolute necessity (I just added it for S&G's to see if it made a difference in anything). Just sharing what I heard up for discussion.

I do not think, however, it ruins horses.

I do feel very badly for the horses I see with their mouths CRANKED shut.

[fuzzy.pony]

Crickets from me. I never use a flash

Would you like a trophy?

[Gloria]

Flash? I have never used flash. Will I ever use a flash? Maybe.. if I have a horse that has alligator mouth and I cannot get him to get his mouth shut by being a better rider/trainer myself, and I have to find a quick way to get him to a show ring, then maybe I will try one. But hopefully by being diligent myself, I will never resort to that route. I want the horse to give me feed back when I ride and alligator mouth is a feedback that something is not quite right.

Many people use them just because everybody else seems to be using them and the catalogue is flooded with those sorts of things.

[Petstorejunkie]

Would you like a trophy?
Sure! but in all honesty, I'd really prefer a latte

[wildlifer]

Just looking for some of the reasons you would use a flash rather then a simple snaffle in young horse training?

thanks

IMHO, never. Well, almost never. If my horse is opening his mouth or avoiding the bit, I want to know why and address that rather than tying his mouth shut. Exception would be a horse that due to previous poor riding or training, developed the habit of gaping as an evasion and could not be convinced otherwise through a soft use of hand and bit. I take flashes off and cut off the loops.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I'm with slc. Always a flash in a snaffle. Mouth and tongue issues in horses are much, much easier to prevent than to correct. Most of the time, a properly adjusted flash will prevent the problem.

As for why mouth and tongue problems may occur; I certainly would not blame bad hands of the rider as the most common cause. Whenever horses are asked to do something new or hard, they will try to find a way to answer that is easier for them. Sometimes the response is what we would call an evasion, but it is probably not "intentional" in the human sense. Opening the mouth, or playing with the bit with the tongue, etc. is a normal response to new or hard work. Usually, it can be avoided by using a flash. So why not?

[oharabear]

I don't even own a flash (can I have a trophy too?? What was that comment even about, anyway? :rolleyes:), and I primarily start young horses and bring them up to training level before selling them or giving them back to their owners. I typically use a plain eggbutt snaffle with a regular cavesson. Never had an issue.

My pony doesn't even wear any type of noseband, simply because I am having such a hard time finding one that is big enough to go around her nose but still short enough to be adjusted properly after it goes around her head. She has a very short but chunky head.... I am thinking I will just find a cheapo one at my tack consignment store and punch holes in it... but she seems to go just fine sans noseband.

[millerra]

And I wish I had used a flash sooner. I had a very light mouthed homebred TB. And I didn't start him in flash. He went great UNTIL we started jumping and galloping. He learned, then, how easy it was to cross his jaw, and get very strong in the jaw and neck [he is a big, strong horse who LOVES to gallop]. And it crossed over into the dressage (started leaning down and getting strong).

He now goes in a figure 8 in dressage and a leverage noseband for jumping. This way he can still go in a french link D. By preventing him from crossing the jaw and evading the bit, he is getting better and better in self carriage, balance, and "talking to" the bit. Had I started him in a flash and jumped him in a flash - he may never have learned this evasion in the first place. My young horse will go in a flash as soon as we start doing "real work". Hind sight can be 20/20.

[myvanya]

My OTQH goes in a flash (that has to be adjusted just right...not too tight and not too loose) and a loose ring KK ultra. This is the only combination he has seemed comfortable and happy in as shown by overall relaxation in his entire body and improved acceptance of the bit (not that he has been bad about that but allow me to explain)-

Coming off the track originally he actually had very few issues, however a trainer worked with him for a while (before I owned him) that turned out to be disastrous. When I got him he would gape, cross his jaw and tighten up at the slightest touch from even the gentlest bit. I have very quiet hands (according to more than one person) and rode him very gently and he made improvements, but he would still get very tense and gape in certain situations (like the canter). I tried a variety of bits and such but nothing worked to help him be relaxed. I put a flash on not super tight (he can still chew easily) but not so loose that it sags or anything and he is quite happy. He seldom ever comes up against it, relizes he can still chew and such, and is far more relaxed and accepting. For jumping he uses a figure 8 since it interferes less around the nostril area and gives him a little more freedom whn properly adjusted. I am no expert but my trainer uses a flash on all her horses, though she is open to going without if it seems like a good idea. I think to say that all horses should or shouldn't go in a flash would be silly as each horse is an individual but it certainly seems to be a very harmless and usefull piece of equipment when used correctly (and that last part is important). I feel terrible when I see someone using a flash improperly whether improperly placed or so adjusted so tightly that the horse can't open its mouth.

[EqTrainer]

I am not really sure that flashes prevent evasions. There are all sorts of evasions that a horse can do w/it's mouth and the idea that the horse will feel the flash and stop.. I don't know.

I use them remedially when a horse has indeed learned to gape his mouth wide open, for whatever reason, if I cannot convince him that his world is now different. If the horse is young and newly started I look for a bit that suits the horse better.

I don't think I could just routinely use any tool, but that's probably more about me than anything else, I have to think things thru.

[egontoast]

I disagree with whomever said if it's a horse it needs a flash.:cry: NO.

Some benefit from a flash and some don't don't benefit from a flash. Some need a flash sometimes but not other times. Like almost everything else with training a horse, it depends.

You want the live connection. Sometimes a flash helps and sometimes it doesn't.

At some point , if you are going to progress at all , there will be no flash.

So for the person that thinks all horses are born needing a flash, do they use a flash with a double, too?

[Eclectic Horseman]

I disagree with whomever said if it's a horse it needs a flash.:cry: NO.

Conrad Schumacher. Obviously an idiot. The SRS always use a drop noseband with the snaffle which serves the same purposes. Also idiots.

Some benefit from a flash and some don't don't benefit from a flash. Some need a flash sometimes but not other times. Like almost everything else with training a horse, it depends.

The point is to use it in training so that you never need it.

You want the live connection. Sometimes a flash helps and sometimes it doesn't.

At some point , if you are going to progress at all , there will be no flash.

I wonder how all the BNTs and ODGs overcame their flash handicap.

So for the person that thinks all horses are born needing a flash, do they use a flash with a double, too?

Horses should not be put in a double until they are well trained (at 3rd or 4th), and past any mouth or bitting issues.

EH

[Valentina_32926]

Flash or Crank used to help prevent them from opening mouth to evade action of the bit.

It will help prevent the bit from being pulled though the mouth - but a "D" ring or eggbutt is better than loose ring/flash/crank option to prevent that.

If the horse doesn't need it - great. My mare hates flash (it's think and I think she doesn't like the thin leather when she's being bad and I really tighten it down) - so she's better about the crank. But when she gets "cranky" I use both the flash and the crank and I tighten them down (usually when she's in season), otherwise I use them just not very tight - comfortably adjusted is what I call it.

[egontoast]

Conrad Schumacher. Obviously an idiot. The SRS always use a drop noseband with the snaffle which serves the same purposes. Also idiots.

:confused: Not sure what that is all about. I am sorry if you think these people are idiots. :confused:

It appears I struck a nerve by offering an opinion that happened to be different from some other opinions.

[MyReality]

I always use it when I need to use it. Some horses don't need it, and many do. Once the horse learns to carry himself properly, it will become more comfortable and efficient to carry himself properly, and you will find a flash is no longer needed.

[Ajierene]

I have never used a flash, drop or figure eight on a horse.


I just do not see the need.

As far as the Spanish Riding School is concerned - I looked them up and see some drop nosebands on the younger horses, none on any horses further along in training.

That does not mean that every young horse needs a drop. That means this is the program at this particular school that only works with one breed of horses. It may be absolutely unnecessary for most of the horses and part of the program.

This is similar to me always using a D-Ring with copper for my mare. Does she need it? Probably not, but I like D-Ring snaffles and the ones I had happened to have copper (either copper mouth or rollers). It is part of my 'program', but has no basis in fact or need.

[Eclectic Horseman]

:confused: Not sure what that is all about. I am sorry if you think these people are idiots. :confused:

It appears I struck a nerve by offering an opinion that happened to be different from some other opinions.

I was being sarcastic. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But you are sadly mistaken if you think that all opinions are of equal value.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I have never used a flash, drop or figure eight on a horse.

I just do not see the need.

How many horses have you trained to FEI? Perhaps your opinion would be different if it were based on more or different experience?

As far as the Spanish Riding School is concerned - I looked them up and see some drop nosebands on the younger horses, none on any horses further along in training.

Right. A drop noseband is not used with a double bridle, by the SRS or anyone else. It is illegal in competition.

That does not mean that every young horse needs a drop. That means this is the program at this particular school that only works with one breed of horses. It may be absolutely unnecessary for most of the horses and part of the program.

This is similar to me always using a D-Ring with copper for my mare. Does she need it? Probably not, but I like D-Ring snaffles and the ones I had happened to have copper (either copper mouth or rollers). It is part of my 'program', but has no basis in fact or need.

No, it is not similar at all. You keep talking about NEEDING a flash or a drop noseband. The whole point of using one is so that you never NEED one. Get it?

[quietann]

I kind of wish my previous trainer had never put my mare in a flash, or used it only occasionally on an "as needed" basis (as mare's previous owner did). We've become more or less dependent on it, which precludes us doing some non-dressage things like local open shows, where the flash is not allowed. (Pet peeve of the day: jointed pelhams, twists, etc. are just fine in that world, and you could probably show up with a "bicycle chain" bit and it would be fine -- but only plain cavessons are allowed.) I am not 100% committed to staying with dressage because I simply cannot afford enough training and I am not that great a rider, and it's sad to have options closed to us.

I've taken her out of the flash a few times and find that she doesn't listen very well. She'd probably love a Kimberwicke or Pelham but that would get the dressage purists screaming.

I mostly feel guilty because when I bought her, I promised her breeders I would show her -- she is a lovely, high quality mare and would be a good "advertisement" for their program -- and one by one the options have gone away, usually my fault.

[Ajierene]

No, it is not similar at all. You keep talking about NEEDING a flash or a drop noseband. The whole point of using one is so that you never NEED one. Get it?

No, I don't get it. That is circular logic to me. I do not see the point in doing anything more than the basic for the horse unless it is needed. To me, anything other than a plain cavesson is only to be used in rare occasions and very temporary - similar to the martingale, draw reins and anything else more than a snaffle bit, plain bridle and saddle.

And..um...my opinion may be different if I trained a horse to FEI reining and only FEI reining. It may be different if I trained horses to Grand Prix jumping or four star eventing, or racing, etc. It may not.

It still remains my opinion and while my training background has a lot to do with how I derived my opinions, it is not relevant to this discussion, especially not when asked in such a way to imply that if I had never trained a horse to FEI levels of dressage, then my opinion is not valid. My opinion, along with yours and everyone else who post to this bulletin board.

I tell you what, I will give my resume if you give your resume first.

[egontoast]

The whole point of using one is so that you never NEED one. Get it?

You really have a hang up about noseband choices, don't you? It's obviously very important that everyone agree with you or you'll smack them upside the haid. Was there a traumatic childhood cavesson related mishap? :lol:



Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But you are sadly mistaken if you think that all opinions are of equal value.

Shall we run our personal opinions by you first before posting them on the board? This will have to do for aghasted rolly eyes: :lol:

heck, do whatever you want, ffs. It ain't exactly a life and death type thing.

[horsestablereview]

Question: If your horse doesn't need it, then what's the harm in having it on him?

Which is more severe? A crank, dropped, or a flash?

All this tack exists because there are all sorts of different horses with different histories and different training programs.

As far as the original question goes, if the bit is sliding or your finding your horse gapping its mouth (and you know the bit fits fine), give the flash a try. You can always take it off.

[Gloria]

Question: If your horse doesn't need it, then what's the harm in having it on him?

Which is more severe? A crank, dropped, or a flash?

All this tack exists because there are all sorts of different horses with different histories and different training programs.

As far as the original question goes, if the bit is sliding or your finding your horse gapping its mouth (and you know the bit fits fine), give the flash a try. You can always take it off.

Here is what I think.

Drop has its place and can be useful at times. Unfortunately horses heads look bad in one.

Flash is a poor attempt to combine regular cavesson and a drop, trying to accomplish what a drop can do without making horse heads looking weird. Unfortunately because of its design, it is mechanically unsound and is more trouble than it's worth.

Crank is designed to be able to crank the horse' mouth shut by using the pulling system. And because of the pulling system, riders tend to over tighten the crank without realizing it. Sure you don't need to crank it tight but what is the point of crank if you have it loose?

[egontoast]

If your horse doesn't need it, then what's the harm in having it on him?


i don't think it's harmful. I just think it's not effective for all horses and is even GASP counter productive for some horses.

and no, don't think everyone with a different experience or opinion is an "idiot" either, despite what some very excitable poster claimed up above..:lol:

[horsestablereview]

I just think it's not effective for all horses and is even GASP counter productive for some horses.


Just curious, can you explain a situation in which it would be counterproductive?

[Vibrant]

Just curious, can you explain a situation in which it would be counterproductive?

I can give you an example! I have always ridden my 4yo in a regular cavesson, but I inherited a nicer dressage bridle than the one I was using, and it had a flash. My trainer suggested we give it a try, since he tends to be "mouthy" (chewing on lead ropes, grabbing jackets, etc.) on the ground and we could always pull it off. Rode with it a couple times, but quickly determined that it pretty much had the opposite effect to its purpose - instead of creating a quieter mouth, he became extremely fidgety, shaking his head, working his jaw, rubbing on anything he could get close to, etc. etc. etc. He *hated* that thing, and it was more of a distraction than an aid. Pulled it off, and he was back to his sweet, obsessively oral but quiet-faced self. :lol:

[kookicat]

Rue (TB, event horse) gets very tense and locks his jaw if I put a flash on him. He does not like them, even adjusted loose. Take it off, and he's back to his old swingy-relaxed self.

[Bats79]

No, it is not similar at all. You keep talking about NEEDING a flash or a drop noseband. The whole point of using one is so that you never NEED one. Get it?

If you don't NEED one why on earth would you use one?

If you train your horse not to have mouth issues why would you need something that covers up mouth issues.

In my experience, much, much less than Conrad Schumakers but all the way to Grand Prix a couple of times with horses I have started myself, every horse that goes nicely in a snaffle and flash goes BETTER in a snaffle without a flash provide the rider becomes BETTER as well.

No more "accidental" rough half halts, no more driving the horse into the hand for cadence, encouraging instead.

But then again, I might be an idiot too.

[Ajierene]

Just curious, can you explain a situation in which it would be counterproductive?

Similar to the other two posts, I can guarantee you that my mare would have flipped her lid if I put a flash on her when she was first started.

She would have gotten used to it eventually, but why spend all the time in the round pen with her trying to kill herself so she can open her mouth again when she does not need it?

Yes, she opens her mouth sometimes when we are working....when I use to much hand and not enough seat and leg. Without a flash, I get that extra clue that I need to adjust my riding. This is where Bats79 has a great point.

[Bats79]

Question: If your horse doesn't need it, then what's the harm in having it on him?

Which is more severe? A crank, dropped, or a flash?

All this tack exists because there are all sorts of different horses with different histories and different training programs.

As far as the original question goes, if the bit is sliding or your finding your horse gapping its mouth (and you know the bit fits fine), give the flash a try. You can always take it off.

What does it mean when the horse "relaxes" the jaw? If you consider the shape of the horse's skull it would mean that the relaxation of the jaw - AT THE HINGE - of 1 - 3mm would result in an opening at the front teeth of 10 - 20 cms at least.

Drop nosebands are designed to be done up at the nose where you can clearly test the horse's ability to open the mouth by giving it a treat - sugar cube, horse treat or oats. The horse can open the mouth, chew and swallow.

A crank noseband done up tight - and some of them are done up so tight they cause swelling :( by preventing the horse from opening or crossing the jaw also prevents the jaw from being released.

How can the horse relax at the jaw hinge when the teeth are pulled tight together?

Its too easy to forget that you are dealing with a horses JAW when you only look at the mouth end.

[kookicat]

What does it mean when the horse "relaxes" the jaw? If you consider the shape of the horse's skull it would mean that the relaxation of the jaw - AT THE HINGE - of 1 - 3mm would result in an opening at the front teeth of 10 - 20 cms at least.

Drop nosebands are designed to be done up at the nose where you can clearly test the horse's ability to open the mouth by giving it a treat - sugar cube, horse treat or oats. The horse can open the mouth, chew and swallow.

A crank noseband done up tight - and some of them are done up so tight they cause swelling :( by preventing the horse from opening or crossing the jaw also prevents the jaw from being released.

How can the horse relax at the jaw hinge when the teeth are pulled tight together?

Its too easy to forget that you are dealing with a horses JAW when you only look at the mouth end.

Great post!:yes:

[DieBlaueReiterin]

The meredith manor site mentions the flash being useful for preventing the bit being pulled sideways through the horse's mouth. I never thought of that. I use a leather strap that western trainers often use to link the two rings of a snaffle bit for that purpose. Though I can't recall it ever coming into effect, even during a big unexpected maneuver or the rare "stop damn you" pulley-rein situation. Seems like a useful safety feature, though, just in case.

i am trying to imagine a situation in which a bit could be pulled through the horse's mouth. (as defined, i guess, as the ring of the bit going inside the lips on one side) how loose would the bridle have to be in order for that to happen?? wouldn't the neutral pressure of the cheek piece prevent that?

[slc2]

No. When a bridle is well fitted, it still can twist on the head and the bit be pulled through the mouth. though definitely if the bridle is loose it can happen fare easier.

'if it's a horse it goes in a flash' was something I was told once. I thought it was funny. one of my horses had a flash, one a drop, and one no caveson.

[Gloria]

If you study the design of flash, you will see why it is a bad concept to use it.

First for a flash to be effective, it needs to be somehow tight. If it is loose, you might as well take it off. When it is tight, it creates quite a bit of problems.

1. The strap at the chin wants to rise up and the only thing to stop it is the bit. Now talk about the interference of the bits!!!

2. The strap wants to pull the nose band down. Once it gets pulled down, the strap becomes loose. Once it becomes loose, you will need to tighen it up more. See the vicious cycle? Eventually the nose band might get pulled down so much that it essentially becomes a weird looking drop. So why don't you just use a drop?

3. Worst of all, the strap push the flesh into the horses' teeth. Now push your cheek in and see whether you can open and close your mouth without hurting yourself, and then imagine someone force you to clamp your mouth down, Ouch. :cry:Now add insult to injury, equine teeth are sharp on the outside edge while human teeth are round. Can you imagine the ulcer that can form in the mouth?

No wonder those horses cannot tolerate flash!!! And others that simply ignore the discomfort.. Poor beasts...

[Ajierene]

i am trying to imagine a situation in which a bit could be pulled through the horse's mouth. (as defined, i guess, as the ring of the bit going inside the lips on one side) how loose would the bridle have to be in order for that to happen?? wouldn't the neutral pressure of the cheek piece prevent that?

Happened to me once. Eggbutt snaffle, difficult horse, more beginner rider, so using more hand than seat. Horse did not want to go to jump and kept pulling right. I pulled left so hard, I pulled the bit right through her open mouth.

That's the only incident I know of. That was in my first year of riding.

[Petstorejunkie]

If you study the design of flash, you will see why it is a bad concept to use it.

First for a flash to be effective, it needs to be somehow tight. If it is loose, you might as well take it off. When it is tight, it creates quite a bit of problems.

1. The strap at the chin wants to rise up and the only thing to stop it is the bit. Now talk about the interference of the bits!!!

2. The strap wants to pull the nose band down. Once it gets pulled down, the strap becomes loose. Once it becomes loose, you will need to tighen it up more. See the vicious cycle? Eventually the nose band might get pulled down so much that it essentially becomes a weird looking drop. So why don't you just use a drop?

3. Worst of all, the strap push the flesh into the horses' teeth. Now push your cheek in and see whether you can open and close your mouth without hurting yourself, and then imagine someone force you to clamp your mouth down, Ouch. :cry:Now add insult to injury, equine teeth are sharp on the outside edge while human teeth are round. Can you imagine the ulcer that can form in the mouth?

No wonder those horses cannot tolerate flash!!! And others that simply ignore the discomfort.. Poor beasts...

Great post! :D

[Nojacketrequired]

Anyone asking any poster to back up their million+ words is p#ssing into the wind. It'll never happen.

Eventually, over the years there are so many inconsistencies, back pedals and times they've lost the ability to keep track of their own stories, that it becomes obvious to long term posters that there is no substance to what they say. And there will certainly never be any proof to back any of it up. A lot of it is likely built on fantasy, hearsay, wishes, reading and the occassional lesson with a pro back in the mists of time.


MBM, I don't think it is that we are "bugged". That would imply that it just bothers us for a personal reason, or a dislike. There is also the concern as responsible amateurs trying to help each other on the 'net, that we attempt to warn newbies that not all posters can be trusted, even if they are incredibly voluable, and if a poster gives out incorrect and/or dangerous advice, report them to the Mods. When someone SOUNDS like they are speaking from on high on every subject a newbie canget sucked in. Especially when a poster is onthe net for HOURS and IMMEDIATELY answers them back.

None of us will ever stop those posters who want to seem like "All THAT and a bag of chips..", and there will always be newbies who fall for the guru who deigns to write them a book. And, in fact, occassionally these posters even have something useful to say.

You know that old saw about a room full of typewriters manned by a troupe of monkeys right? Eventually, they'll write War and Peace.

NJR

[lizathenag]

Seems to me when Miller's first had the flash noseband in their catalog (for hard pullers I think it said), it was so you could use a standing martingale with your dropped noseband.

I don't use any noseband at all. More tack to clean. Unless I am clinicing or something.

[purplnurpl]

If it's a horse, I'd use a flash.

ROFLMAO! That's a good one.

My grey horse goes in one because he is mouthy.

My bay horse goes in one because he is mouthy.

for the grey, the flash just settles him down and keeps his jaw a bit more stable--

for the bay, he is REALLY sensitive. If he wears a French link and regular nose band his mouth and tongue are all over the darn place. he's one of those that when you trot on a loopy rein his head wags back and forth just from the weight of the reins flopping to the beat of his own trot.

I put him in a rubber full cheek with keepers (makes the bit a little less wiggly) and a flash for bit stability as well.
works much better.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I just think it is hard to make blanket statements about whether any training aid is good or bad. Almost everything (with limited exception) is going to be right or wrong for certain horses because they are individuals and the people riding them are individuals.

I've used a flash and I've not used a flash. If the question is "when to use a flash attachment" then maybe the answer should be "when it is better for the horse."

For some of us that will be never and for others that will be always. Ideally we can present our arguments in a respectful manner and then it will be up to the individuals reading this thread to decide.

I just can't figure out what the big deal is, I guess. My only absolute is that I, personally, would not start a horse with one on. I've seen that go badly.

[egontoast]

On page one the expert said this

If it's a horse, I'd use a flash.

now, a few pages later, the coth dressage expert says this
'if it's a horse it goes in a flash' was something I was told once. I thought it was funny. one of my horses had a flash, one a drop, and one no caveson.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4504834)


Still more backpedalling by the expert on everything. Is it any wonder people point and laugh?

[redears]

3. Worst of all, the strap push the flesh into the horses' teeth. Now push your cheek in and see whether you can open and close your mouth without hurting yourself, and then imagine someone force you to clamp your mouth down, Ouch. :cry:Now add insult to injury, equine teeth are sharp on the outside edge while human teeth are round. Can you imagine the ulcer that can form in the mouth?

No wonder those horses cannot tolerate flash!!! And others that simply ignore the discomfort.. Poor beasts...

Do Figure 8's have the same effect? My horse goes bonkers in a flash (I found many years ago) but sees okay in a Figure 8 (which I tried because of the fleece on the nose, she gets sunburned). Now that it's winter I've gone back to a plain cavesson, but kept the figure-8 on my other horse's bridle because he tries to bite the reins or my clothes between the barn and the mounting block.

[bort84]

I just think it is hard to make blanket statements about whether any training aid is good or bad. Almost everything (with limited exception) is going to be right or wrong for certain horses because they are individuals and the people riding them are individuals.

I've used a flash and I've not used a flash. If the question is "when to use a flash attachment" then maybe the answer should be "when it is better for the horse."

For some of us that will be never and for others that will be always. Ideally we can present our arguments in a respectful manner and then it will be up to the individuals reading this thread to decide.

Exactly.

Seriously, it's horse training, people. Being flexible and able to think outside of the box are very important when working with animals. Some horses prefer a flash (some people may not believe it, but surely some horses out there do prefer it), some horses hate a flash, some tolerate it, and some work best in one but don't actually love it (come on, we ask horses to deal with a lot of stuff they'd rather not).

So, if it works for you, great, if it doesn't, also great. I bet most trainers that work with a variety of horses will be somewhere in the middle on the issue, using them if they work, trying something else if they don't, with some reaching for them often, and some reaching for them as more of a last resort.

It's really not that big of a deal, certainly not a big enough deal to start name calling = )

Also, @ egontoast, as much as you gripe about slc, I've noticed you are always right on top of nearly all of her posts pointing out some discrepency - though you are certainly putting a lot of effort into it, I don't think she's going to change, haha.

[egontoast]

Also, @ egontoast, as much as you gripe about slc, I've noticed you are always right on top of nearly all of her posts pointing out some discrepency - though you are certainly putting a lot of effort into it, I don't think she's going to change, haha.

Um, no, if you check our post counts per day you'll see that is just not true.

I don't have the time to reply to that many of slc's posts but since she posts on almost every thread multiple times, yeah, if I think it's whacky, I'll reply.

[Gloria]

Do Figure 8's have the same effect? My horse goes bonkers in a flash (I found many years ago) but sees okay in a Figure 8 (which I tried because of the fleece on the nose, she gets sunburned). Now that it's winter I've gone back to a plain cavesson, but kept the figure-8 on my other horse's bridle because he tries to bite the reins or my clothes between the barn and the mounting block.

I don't think figure 8 has the same problem but don't hold me to it. I have never exaimne a figure 8 closely since it is used more in jumpers not in dressage so I am reluctant to say either way.. Sorry.. Would be interesting to know though. I think I will grab one to examine closely next time I go to a tack shop.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=slc2;4504834]No. When a bridle is well fitted, it still can twist on the head and the bit be pulled through the mouth. though definitely if the bridle is loose it can happen fare easier.


when a bridle is well fitted it doesnt twist as you say
and the only reason a bit is pulled through the mouth is someone with heavy hands

'if it's a horse it goes in a flash' was something I was told once.

like many things you were once told or googled on hearsay

[goeslikestink]

If you study the design of flash, you will see why it is a bad concept to use it.

First for a flash to be effective, it needs to be somehow tight. If it is loose, you might as well take it off. When it is tight, it creates quite a bit of problems.

1. The strap at the chin wants to rise up and the only thing to stop it is the bit. Now talk about the interference of the bits!!!

2. The strap wants to pull the nose band down. Once it gets pulled down, the strap becomes loose. Once it becomes loose, you will need to tighen it up more. See the vicious cycle? Eventually the nose band might get pulled down so much that it essentially becomes a weird looking drop. So why don't you just use a drop?

3. Worst of all, the strap push the flesh into the horses' teeth. Now push your cheek in and see whether you can open and close your mouth without hurting yourself, and then imagine someone force you to clamp your mouth down, Ouch. :cry:Now add insult to injury, equine teeth are sharp on the outside edge while human teeth are round. Can you imagine the ulcer that can form in the mouth?

No wonder those horses cannot tolerate flash!!! And others that simply ignore the discomfort.. Poor beasts...

from what you describing is ill fitment of the flash nose band
and also bit fitment


op checked your bridle actually is fitted correctly so the bit hangs in the right place
also have you looked to see if its the correct size and lenght for the horse mouth
if its hangs to low then you might have to shorten your cheek pieces
as it could be ill fitting bridle and therefore the bit isnt laying on the bars of his mouth but rather against his teeth which would make him tilt his head and open his mouth to get rid of the discomfort

and again on this posters comment no 3
horses teeth should never be left until they are in so much pain that they have ulcers on the inside of there mouth due to there teet not being done


the teeth should be regulary checked so not to have sharp bits sticking out at any time
as it would also interfere not only with the bridle but also be able to eat
you should always check inisde the mouth for any discomfort

[slc2]

1. The strap at the chin wants to rise up and the only thing to stop it is the bit. Now talk about the interference of the bits!!!

Bridle is incorrectly fitted. When fitted correctly the strap does not rise up.

2. The strap wants to pull the nose band down. Once it gets pulled down, the strap becomes loose. Once it becomes loose, you will need to tighen it up more. See the vicious cycle? Eventually the nose band might get pulled down so much that it essentially becomes a weird looking drop. So why don't you just use a drop?

Sounds like a cheap bridle as well as incorrectly adjusted with the caveson too loose.

3. Worst of all, the strap push the flesh into the horses' teeth. Now push your cheek in and see whether you can open and close your mouth without hurting yourself, and then imagine someone force you to clamp your mouth down, Ouch. Now add insult to injury, equine teeth are sharp on the outside edge while human teeth are round. Can you imagine the ulcer that can form in the mouth?

The teeth on the outside of the jaw are NEVER supposed to be 'sharp'. The horse needs dental care.

No wonder those horses cannot tolerate flash!!! And others that simply ignore the discomfort.. Poor beasts...

[Gloria]

Dear dear dear, could you ladies study equine dental before sprouting words that are completely untrue? A well care equine teeth WILL BE sharp on the outside edge. That is how they cut the damn grass and hay. Please study before making claims you absolutely have no idea of. They should not have points but they HAVE TO be sharp.

As to whether well-fitted flash will cause those problems I pointed out. Again, I am not going to argue with you about that. I am a scientist and I believe in physics and force of mechanics. If you want to claim the force of physics does not apply on horses, be my guest. I don't care.

The only way a horse can protect himself in a flash is if they clamp their mouths shut (and that is what you want isn't it). Except have you clamped your mouth shut for 10 minutes? I get migraine from just that. And where is that relaxed jaws when the horse clamp their mouth shut? Tension in one area of body will always cause tension in another part. A relaxed horse (and human) has their jaws relaxed and mouth slightly open, not gap wide open, but open slightly, but definite not shut tightly.

[goeslikestink]

Dear dear dear, could you ladies study equine dental before sprouting words that are completely untrue? A well care equine teeth WILL BE sharp on the outside edge. That is how they cut the damn grass and hay. Please study before making claims you absolutely have no idea of. They should not have points but they HAVE TO be sharp.

As to whether well-fitted flash will cause those problems I pointed out. Again, I am not going to argue with you about that. I am a scientist and I believe in physics and force of mechanics. If you want to claim the force of physics does not apply on horses, be my guest. I don't care.

The only way a horse can protect himself in a flash is if they clamp their mouths shut (and that is what you want isn't it). Except have you clamped your mouth shut for 10 minutes? I get migraine from just that. And where is that relaxed jaws when the horse clamp their mouth shut? Tension in one area of body will always cause tension in another part. A relaxed horse (and human) has their jaws relaxed and mouth slightly open, not gap wide open, but open slightly, but definite not shut tightly.

http://www.yourstables.co.uk/the-horse-clinic/horse-anatomy.html
a horse cant chew his food if there are sharp peices any where and will cause discomfort and also in the bridle area

[Gloria]

http://www.yourstables.co.uk/the-horse-clinic/horse-anatomy.html
a horse cant chew his food if there are sharp peices any where and will cause discomfort and also in the bridle area

Please talk to your equine vet and equine dentist. It may also be helpful to peer into your horse' mouth when your dentis come to float the teeth. Even better, please feel inside your horse' mouth after your equine dentist finishes his/her job. Then maybe you know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about sharp edge not points.

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

Ummm.... can anyone explain why all (as in 95%) of the 4th level and below champions at regionals, and in the USDF Horse of the Year awards, and Bundeschampions, and all the champion young horses in Europe go in flash bridles with loose ring snaffles? If it is sooo aweful?

[redears]

I would guess because they are "trendy" right now.

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

If by "trendy" you mean the most successful trainers and riders have been using it for the past 20 years, then yes, its "trendy".

[slc2]

The horse can open his mouth with a flash.

There are no teeth where the flash sits.

Learn your own dentistry. :)

[poltroon]

Ummm.... can anyone explain why all (as in 95%) of the 4th level and below champions at regionals, and in the USDF Horse of the Year awards, and Bundeschampions, and all the champion young horses in Europe go in flash bridles with loose ring snaffles? If it is sooo aweful?

Try buying a dressage-style bridle without one. :)

[poltroon]

The horse can open his mouth with a flash.

There are no teeth where the flash sits.

Learn your own dentistry. :)

There would be teeth where the cavesson portion falls, and in general I agree that either the cavesson will have to be very tight or it will end up pointing down or the flash strap is fairly loose. In some horses, the canines could be where the flash strap might go.

I'm neither pro nor anti-flash. I've used them before, not using one now, and will likely use one again. But I think the high popularity of them is more about fashion than about function. I think a figure-8 is more functional, personally, and more comfortable for the horse.

The flash noseband was originally developed so you could use a standing martingale with a drop noseband component.

[Bats79]

Dear dear dear, could you ladies study equine dental before sprouting words that are completely untrue? A well care equine teeth WILL BE sharp on the outside edge. That is how they cut the damn grass and hay. Please study before making claims you absolutely have no idea of. They should not have points but they HAVE TO be sharp.

I know of a case where a dentist caused the death of one pony and a life threatening situation in another buy making the teeth blunt. The ponies didn't chew their feed properly and ended up with obstructions.

Very nasty business.

[Gloria]

I know of a case where a dentist caused the death of one pony and a life threatening situation in another buy making the teeth blunt. The ponies didn't chew their feed properly and ended up with obstructions.

Very nasty business.

Reading this thread really bring to light how many people who don't understand equine dental believe they do. Some are willing to consider their previous knowlege may be faulty but some will fight teeth and hooves to maintan their seemingly superior status. sigh :(

[goeslikestink]

Reading this thread really bring to light how many people who don't understand equine dental believe they do. Some are willing to consider their previous knowlege may be faulty but some will fight teeth and hooves to maintan their seemingly superior status. sigh :(

no- i do actually understand dentistry in horses and wasnt disbuting that teeth are sharper to the outside edge thus this is why they have to be rasp not til blunt but to take off any pokey out bits etc and how the how the bridle fits ill fitting bridle can cuase pain to a horse
on the nose , chin poll cheeks, and mouth

my point wasnt getting at you but trying to point out your post aswell as you made a good point in the post , but also to make sure that other people take note - this is information to other bb users and if the horse isnt going properly it can be due to teeth bit bridle tack or rider or health problems or feet problems as in any kind of pain issues

but teeth and ill ftting tack are such a common error of judgement when people havent a clue as to why there horse is having trouble same to with bit size and lenght can be becuase its hung so low its banging on the front teeth or becuase they havent checked the size of the mouth inside to the width of the bit or lenght

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hanne.com%2Fteeth-anatomy.html&ei=lzJ8SfDBNoyg-gaFpoXPDw&usg=AFQjCNGiGeTXunTp9m1oOEpHR3q9m_5Ogg&sig2=4EaOZ5s4ZGZhjQQnUH-Qng

havent got a problem with what your saying at all just used you kinda thing to make a serious point to people

[Gloria]

goeslikestink, I didn't mean you.... Sorry I didn't make it clear... You made an attempt to point out I might be wrong and I respect that. That is what discussion is about. And since you made the effort, I tried to make it clearer that even though points are sharp, sharp edges aren't necessarily points...

That is very obvious for me because I have seen and felt inside their mouths. I had thought all sharp edges were bad and would cause all kind of troubles you pointed out. But when someone told me that equine teeth were meant to be sharp, I tried to see whether their statement were true. And I found that I was wrong and they were right.

The problem I had was with some other who simply dismiss others who disagree with her, "study your own equine dental". That statement rather shows the kind of ignorance that leaves no room for improvement. Some people know what they know and what they don't know. Well some people simply don't know what they don't know and think they know it all. But again it was not directed to you....

[Beasmom]

Why of course I use a flash! Why ever not? It's essential in a low-light situation when shooting photographs and...

What?

Oh, never mind.

[goeslikestink]

i am trying to imagine a situation in which a bit could be pulled through the horse's mouth. (as defined, i guess, as the ring of the bit going inside the lips on one side) how loose would the bridle have to be in order for that to happen?? wouldn't the neutral pressure of the cheek piece prevent that?

thats an easy one -- mostly when riders turn pull the horses head left or right rather than ask the horse
they think they riding but in truth they not they just pulling the horse around by its head in any direction of choice

[redears]

Okay, now I have a question... I was using the figure-8 on my one horse (he's not the one I bought it for, but he shares a bridle with my mare, who uses it, he didn't seem to care either way what was on his face, he just loves her KK bit). I had a nice ride on him last night, but when the bridle came off he had a piece rubbed raw on his lower lip underneith the lower figure 8 strap (the "flash" part, I guess).

What causes that? I think I'll go back to a plain cavesson for him.

[Beasmom]

Does he have pink skin on the lips? is he chestnut? Some horses just have thin, sensitive skin.

It's important to keep flashes, drops and Figure 8's clean and the leather pliable. Dirty tack with crusted bits of feed & dried slobber increases the chance for a rub.

I'm a clean tack Nazi.

[Mozart]

I was in the "always a flash" camp but I recently bought a padded crank cavesson noseband with no flash on extreme sale. Didn't think I needed it but it was on sale right? lol

Anyway, tried it on Mr. Inwardly Sensitive (not cranked tight). Was very surprised, we had a much more correct contact, he was far less likely to get behind the bit (his favourite evasion).

I have so far only ridden in it once and need to do it a few more times to convince myself that it is the cavesson that is making the difference. Maybe it is the padding and not the flash that is making the difference but clearly I did not need the flash.

Go figure...

[pippa553]

Wow, five pages! Well I'm going to stick with my snaffle for now but it was interesting reading. My horse was just started and I was trying out a trainer who suggested the flash first thing. My horse isn't even that fond of the noseband so I imagine he would be even less happy in a flash, not to mention the teeth rubbing the cheek thing. To whoever mentioned trying to buy a dressage bridle without one, how true that is!

[goeslikestink]

Does he have pink skin on the lips? is he chestnut? Some horses just have thin, sensitive skin.

It's important to keep flashes, drops and Figure 8's clean and the leather pliable. Dirty tack with crusted bits of feed & dried slobber increases the chance for a rub.

I'm a clean tack Nazi.

execellent point - also just becuase it fits one horse doesnt mean the same bridle will fit another horse - so it sound like you didnt alter the bridle to fit the second horse also if the bit is dirty then that can do it to
i personally dont shared a bridle with another horse - lets put it in simple terms would one share there underwear- nope
my horses have and even new horses in or out have there own tack ie bridle and saddle and any other equipment they might need as in rugs and numnahs girths and brushes right down to a hoof pick, from bowls to boots each hrose has its own equipement thats the way i was brought up you dont share horse to horse as the tiniest ill fitment can cause harm

[vestito]

I had taken all my flash atts off all bridles and never have ridden any of myhorses in a flash and now have a mare with a very busy head. In side reins or being ridden.

Two different trainers told me to put a flash on her. The second one told me exactly how to fit it.

Guess what...head is very steady and quiet now. She is a bear to bridle and also tries to wipe the flash off at the walk reaching her head down and raising her leg up. I am still able to give her a treat with it on so its not really tight.
I am sure I will remove it in time when she is further along in her training but for now, she is going better than she ever has and using a flash really made her turn a corner in her training.

[Beasmom]

Good point, Stinks, about sharing bridles...

Also regarding the fitting of bridles, especially nosebands. I've noticed just about everyone I know has either an ill-fitting noseband (not the right size/configuration for the horse) or it's badly adjusted.

The cavesson needs to sit just below the cheekbones of the horse. I see cavessons all the time that are an inch or two below the cheekbones. If they're that low, there's a good chance of pinching your horse's lip between bit and cavesson. A cheap, flimsy cavesson will stretch and deform, especially with a flash attached. This affects the usefulness of the whole shebang.

No matter what you're using, buy sturdy, good quality stuff.

[redears]

Thanks guys, he's not sensitive at all, tough little buckskin pony as a matter of fact. The bridle has holes punched to fit him, I adjust it each time I switch horses. He does have his own bridle, which I'll switch back to, my mare has a dressage bit and a jumping bit and I utilized his hunt bridle as her jumping one, etc. Anyway, I'll put everyone back in their own tack and hopefully solve the problem! I'd say the quality of it is "so so" it's a collegiate.

Thanks again, this has been a very educational thread!

[EiRide]

I am a tack minimalist when possible. My Cleveland Bay cross, IDSH, and TB mare go in plain cavessons and snaffles. My Appendix mare goes in a figure 8 because she just seems to accept the contact better, fuss less, and go more quietly when her tack sets some limits.

The figure 8 seems more comfortable to me than a drop or flash, and since I do both dressage and eventing, I prefer to stick to it rather than a flash. I don't think they can breath as well at the gallop in a flash, but that has no basis in anything other than a possibly wildly inaccurate gut feeling.

[Beasmom]

A correctly fitted cavesson with flash should not inhibit a horse's ability to breathe. Neither should a drop, really. I think many people must not adjust their tack correctly.

[goeslikestink]

A correctly fitted cavesson with flash should not inhibit a horse's ability to breathe. Neither should a drop, really. I think many people must not adjust their tack correctly.

with you all the way beassmom and tend to agree i see a lot of people with ill fitting bridles plus saddles and they wonder why horse does xyz