Serious Groundwork Issue - WWYD?

[rideforthelaurels16]

My Thoroughbred, Dante, is a very chill dude, 95% of the time. I mean, sure, sometimes he feels good and is a little high-spirited under-saddle, but on the ground he's an angel. One of those relaxed, low-head, trundle along beside you types.
His former owner had told us that he was naughty to lead - would spin and rear or buck and then take off. I started riding him in Virginia at the barn I was a working student at, and he never displayed that behavior with any of us, although we did keep it in the back of our minds that he COULD, potentially. Then I bought him and brought him home to Maine, where he is kept at a very low-key private barn with two other boarders, a handful of retirees, and the barn owner's two youngsters.
Recently (about two weeks ago) he, out of nowhere, pulled the spin-buck-run tactic with my BO's hubbie, kicking him right above the knee. The man wasn't hurt, thank god, but Dante ended up slipping in some mud and falling. He was off for about a week - only slightly, but enough for me to give him a little time off. He didn't pull the stunt again with BO herself bringing him in again. The next time her hubbie brought him in, same thing. Again, no one was hurt, but hubbie sustained another kick. BO thought the incident happened because her husband was putting too much trust into my usually calm horse, and letting him walk on a loose lead. Since then, she's been leading him in (with a chain) and all has been well.
Today, however, BO's hubbie was bringing in horses when I arrived to ride. I went out with him and grabbed Dante while he grabbed Dante's paddock buddy. I had him on a short lead, with the chain, and was very aware of his movements - and the second we were out of the gate, he jumped forward, spun, bucked and nailed me with both hooves right on the hip. Then he took off running. I was, of course, very worried that he would run to the farm next door and get caught up in some machinery, so we ran to get him. We caught him and he walked in very nicely, if somewhat sheepishly. I checked his legs, got on, and rode. I ended up cutting it short because he felt very slightly off up front - checked again, no heat or swelling, put on some liniment, and left a note that I'd be out first thing in the AM to check him again. Vet will be out in 5 days and will have a look also.
Now, my question here is - what would you do to solve this problem? It seems to be escalating into a nasty habit - regardless of whether it's linked to Dante believing he can get the upper hand over BO's hubbie or not, I neither want him nor any person to get hurt! I have a great relationship with both BO and her husband, they're wonderful with the horses, and I don't want my horse to be a risk every day. We have a few ideas for ways to fix the situation (including lots of groundwork - perhaps my old showmanship days will come in handy...) but I'd love to have input from the fine folks of COTH! Any ideas? (And sorry for the novel!)

[pines4equines]

I would talk to a trainer to help you on this one. You don't want anyone getting seriously injured, including yourself.

To me you're all reacting too late. There are some signals this horse is giving you that he is going to do this particular thing, twitch of an ear or whatever...and everyone is reacting too late. The horse has already gotten its butt around and nailed someone. You should be ready and working with him prior to him even thinking about doing this.

Personally, getting a trainer is what I would do. I also worked with a really good John Lyons trainer with my horse and had wonderful results. You might try to seek someone like that out. And someone who will help you as well as the horse. No sense in training the horse and not the human.

Good luck!

[lauriep]

I agree, he is getting way too far away from you. The key to controlling a horse is controlling the head, always. I would walk him just in front of his shoulder with his head bent back into me, so he is not facing forward in any way. Short chain shank, through his mouth if necessary. Keep the head from getting freedom and you should be ok.

[rideforthelaurels16]

Thanks! My BO and I are going to work together on this one, and I think I'm going to ask another local trainer who sometimes rides at my barn for her input on the matter. Definitely something I want to nip in the bud!
I should definitely have reacted sooner earlier - I saw him arch his neck and I knew what was coming, and attempted to get his attention back to me, but he's a BIG boy and I think it was just too little, too late.

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

I would put him through a series of exercises before you even get through the gate. Stop him, back up, turn on forehand/haunches etc. It doesn't need to take long (maybe a couple of minutes) but should establish a level of respect before you walk through the gate and get him focused on YOU. Then when I had his full attention I would start for the barn and maybe throw in one or two quick exercises along the way to keep him focused. He is showing a lack of respect so that tells me there is a "hole" somewhere and you need to pay VERY close attention to everything he does. He may crowd just a little too close into your space, move into you when not asked etc, pay close attention and be sure to correct ANY moves that are disrespectful. You need to have him respect you as his leader.

[rideforthelaurels16]

Cindy - thank you, I will definitely try that tomorrow! I haven't had him very long, and I'm determined to sort this out, no matter how much time I have to put into it. The wellbeing of the people who take such good care of my horse - and my horse, too - are of utmost importance to me. Thanks for the tips to everyone who has replied so far!! I really appreciate it!

[oharabear]

I agree with lauriep and CW for this. I would also add that you might consider leading with a lungline so if he does start to pull back, you have much more length of rope to maintain some kind of control (read: yank his head back around if he tried to bolt).

Also, when I have rank horses that I work with (I have dealt with a LOT in my time), I always carry a dressage whip for the first month or two. It's extremely handy if they are not responsive enough (for exercises like CW suggested) or if they start getting rude/pushy- example: if a horse isn't backing away from me quickly enough when I ask them to back up, they get thwacked in the chest with the whip. I much prefer that to yanking on their face and I think it helps establish dominance much quicker, as it's similar to one horse kicking another in the pasture for dominance. And my rule is that I only ask them nicely once before TELLING them. Horses don't understand a 3-strike-you're-out policy. They do understand DO IT NOW.

[oharabear]

I should also add that usually even my MOST rank, evil horses that I've gotten in were completely reformed in about 2 or 3 months. It's not like you'll ALWAYS have to be aggressive/mean. Usually once a horse understands who the leader is, they rarely challenge it again, and if they do, you have already established a foundation from which to draw from.

I got a rescue pony who, when we first got her, would literally rear up and strike at people with her front hooves in midair when we tried to lead her/tie her, etc. A few months of very strict and consistent handling almost completely eliminated the problem.

She no longer does that, and is a very sweet, snuggly pony now, and I tend to let her get away with a lot more than I probably should because she's so darn cute, but every once in a while if she starts to be naughty and pull back, a sharp, loud "Knock it off!!" or other growl-type noise will usually keep her firmly planted on the ground. :yes:

[rideforthelaurels16]

Good to know that there's hope, then ;) I think I will definitely do a lot of work in the paddock - BO suggested a couple of minutes of lunging, too - before coming in. He certainly wasn't paying attention to me at all today, and I hung on for all it was worth, but he sent me flying! He's very smart, and has a wonderful personality (moooost of the time, haha!) so I'm sure if I implement all these tips into our daily routine we can reestablish the pecking order fairly quickly.

[onthebit]

What would really bother me about this situation, both as a BO and a horse owner, is that you report he has kicked the BO's hubby twice and you once just in the last two weeks. It would be one thing if he were just trying to get away which is bad enough, but to me this is an extremely dangerous situation since each time he is kicking someone. Thank goodness he hasn't gotten anyone in the head yet or broken bones. (I realize you are concerned about someone getting hurt) If a horse at my barn had kicked me, my husband, or anyone that works here three times in two weeks this would be a dangerous horse in my book, and not allowed to stay if it happened again.

What I would do with a horse like this, after the first incident, is be hyper-aware of his body language because somehow he is letting you know it is coming. You mentioned the arched neck for example. Or he could just be slightly lifting his head, or invading your space, or something. When I am leading a horse that I know can be a jerk, first of all I don't ever lead them without a chain on their nose. Secondly I teach them to lower their head quickly when I put some pressure on the leadrope. This can usually be learned fairly easily in a couple of short sessions. Then, as soon as I detect the slightest signal of something being amiss, I put them to work, hard. They have to back up, longe around me, back up some more, longe some more, etc. I am also very firm about where they are allowed to be in respect to me when I am leading them. They can't drag me along, they have to stop immediately if I stop moving, and if I slow down or speed up they have to do the same. After a few sessions of all of this I can keep the situation safe and calm simply by continually varying my walk speed from faster to slower and throwing in some halts as well. As I am walking along I also ask them to lower their heads, and ask for it to go lower and lower and mix this in with the varying walk speeds and halts. They have to stay focused on me and what I am doing and it keeps their mind from wandering to bad places. This approach has been effective with some pretty rank horses on the ground and soon enough they respect me and stop being difficult. I never let my guard drop though and always keep them occupied as I am leading them. A horse does not have to be non-stop challenging you to be rank IMO, and this guy has shown repeatedly that he absolutely will aim for you.

[pines4equines]

OP I see Brown listed in your address, is that where you want to go to college? I went to RISD which is the neighboring campus.

[rideforthelaurels16]

I applied ED to Brown - I find out on Dec. 15th! I got recruited for the varsity equestrian team, so I'm really hoping! You went to RISD? That's awesome, I really want to take some classes there! I thought about applying for the Brown-RISD Dual Degree program, but I just don't think I've got the skills :)

[AengusOg]

I agree with Cindy's Warmbloods.

It is essential, when leading horses, to pay attention to their demeanour at all times.

This will give the observant handler clues as to how they are likely to react to situations as they arise.

Be aware that the horse would probably rather be among his fieldmates than with you, and that his attention is very likely to wander. When it does, it is important for the handler to pre-empt any 'bad behaviour' by a timely feel on the halter, to keep the horse in the zone.

Be aware also, that horses quickly identify any weaknesses in the abilities of their handlers, and that some will exploit them.

It is a common fault of some people to allow a horse to dictate the situation by taking the handler's attention, rather than the other way about.

When a horse is being led, and he throws his head up to look at other horses, or some other action where his attention is diverted from the task in hand, the handler must not allow his/her attention to be similarly diverted, but, instead, must keep focused on the job and bring the horse's attention back to the job in hand.

That is the point at which it may go pear-shaped, so that is the point at which action must be taken to avert a problem.

Anyone who is charged with handling a horse belonging to someone else has a responsibility to handle that horse with care and attention......the BO's husband clearly was not, which allowed the horse to get away from him, injuring him in the process, which has caused further problems for you and your horse.

As far as the horse being too dangerous to keep on that yard is concerned..........I feel that would be a bit harsh on the horse, to label him a dangerous animal at this stage, particularly when the scenario was caused by human error.

I wouldn't consider the expense of a trainer to visit this horse, either. He just needs proper attention paid to his handling.

Lead him on a halter and a long rope. That will keep you out of the kick zone if he tries to run off, and will allow you to take a few steps to the side and turn him as he goes. Bringing him round sharply and then, as he comes to a halt facing you, releasing the tension on the rope, will let him understand that he cannot get away from you, and that he will be sharply corrected for trying.

Once he has taken a few corrections, he will learn to walk quietly.

[tpup]

Sounds like way too long of a lead rope, and he has unintentionally been rewarded for the behavior, a.e. he got to run off, come back to barn, probably get tied and stand there while you tack up - obviously hard to give him immediate hustling or "punishment" when you've just been kicked, but the trick is to perhaps catch it before it starts and put him to WORK...a.e. when you are leading him, if he pulls away or moves to far forward, wrong choice - he gets put to work. There are probably signs ahead of time of disrespect.

I would start a groundwork program with him immediately...I highly recommend Clinton Anderson's "Gaining Respect & Control on the ground Series 1" to start. He needs to start moving and hustling HIS feet, not yours. I wouldn't walk him in from the paddock, I'd back him up - 100 yards if that's how far it is. When lungeing, make sure you aren't just having him go in circles. Have him yield his HQ, eyes on you. It almost sounds like a learned behavior now and you need to stop it asap. You need to be prepared to put him to work immediately if he even flinches in a direction you don't want him to go. Make him realize the wrong choice means work, and the right choice means rest and reward.

Good luck!

[caballus]

I find it interesting that every time he has done this, as you related, was around or to the BO's husband. That would raise red flags for me about the husband, not the horse.

[mhtokay]

I liked Cindy's ideas. I might try backing up to the barn. I like the Clinton Anderson backing exercises. But use the stick to make sure he's out of your space. A whip turned to use the butt end works nicely as a stick. Plus he's got to have both eyes on you all the time and you have your eyes on him all the time. I'd practice the exercises in a ring or paddock first so you've got the timing and idea down. I'd also probably use the chain around his nose. I'd hook the chain back onto itself so you just have the extra bite, but the instant release when he's correct.

[dwblover]

A friend of mine had a horse who was very large and used it against us smaller humans. My friend called in an amazing trainer who taught her about leading these types of horses. Always with a chain, and always with the horse's head at your shoulder, always. Never let their head come away from your shoulder, never let their head go past your shoulder. If the horse gets in front of you, they assume they are leading this trip to the barn and can do as they please. That is your focus as you walk, keep the head at your shoulder with no slack in the lead at all. If horsey even thinks about taking his head away, use chain as necessary. This is your safety we are talking about, so use the chain to get his attention. Personally I would use the chain as a wake up and pay attention call before horsey acted up in this situation as well, as a reminder.

[Hip]

Okay, if I understand this correctly...your horse acts up on the lead, kicks someone and then runs off, right??

I've had this happen on a mustang/QH gelding only without the kicking but he gave notice he was about to depart my presence, quickly.

As everyone else has said, you need to get his head to you, chain if needs be BUT if he does try to leave, do a kung fu kick and then run off, what I did was cunningly snapped a long lunge line to the bit (my horse would do this in a bridle, out in the middle of a section pasture...which meant lots of walking for me) but you can do this on a halter/chain and then if he tries to get away from you, you play out the lunge line (don't get tangled in it) and stop him in his tracks, very quickly. I jerked my horse but use whatever effort/force you need. He mustn't be able to get loose and go lolly-gagging about the neighborhood. Then kind of walk/run towards him and make him back up from you for a couple of seconds, all the while loudly questioning his ancestry...then quit. Reel him in and walk to the barn as if nothing had happened. Keep his nose to you or at most, his throatlatch at your shoulder.

If he does it again, or tries, repeat until the knothead gets the message.

My horse only did this a couple of times and never tried it again. But I put the fear of me into him and he respected me, no matter what any one says.

[rideforthelaurels16]

Thanks for the continuing tips - very helpful!
I went to work with him this morning - he had very minor heat in one front leg (another side effect/reason to stop all this silliness), so I put some groundwork time in with him. All three times the issue has occurred have been during bring-in time, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to make sure he is absolutely respectful just coming in to the barn in the middle of the day.
Before I brought him out of the paddock, I made him walk forward IMMEDIATELY when I asked - this took a couple of tries, but when he realized I meant business, he was very good. I then had him randomly stop with a whoa, and angling my shoulders towards him. The couple of times he went to move forward I backed him up. Leaving the paddock and heading to the barn I did the same thing - walk, good boy. Stop, good boy. Do it wrong, back up, and then praise for the next correct response. I then did it (plus trot, partly because I needed to jog him and partly because I think it's a good idea to cover ALL bases) in the arena. All was well, he got a good grooming and some liniment, and went out. Tomorrow, we'll repeat the process.
A couple of people mentioned the husband as the one constant - I do believe the reason he acted up with me was because he saw the husband and made the connection in his head. However, apart from perhaps being a little lax leading my horse, I don't think for a moment that the hubbie has mistreated him - he's a wonderful horseman and person. I suspect D has potentially had problems with men in the past - he acts up a little around men of a specific height and build, and not at all with others. He raced, and was passed from owner to owner, so it's close to impossible to tell. All I can do is try to fix the issue!

[rideforthelaurels16]

Oh, and Hip - the "kung fu kick" is a pretty accurate description, I'd say ;) He basically walks forward, then in a split second leaps/spins, bucks, and gallops off.

[tabula rashah]

I agree with the how most in this thread are describing working him to get him over this. In the meantime though- consider something like a chiffney bit or running a chain under his chin rather than over his nose and BE PREPARED for him. Keep his head close to you and butt turned slightly away from you if possible. If you keep you right hand on the shank right where the chain meets the leather (or rope) and your left hand anchored on your left hip- chances are
when he goes to do something stupid and hits that chiffney or chain under nose- you're gonna set him on his ass (which is exactly what he needs). Please, please be proactive with this before someone gets really hurt

[twofatponies]

My older mare has a variation of this trick in her book, which I discovered when my husband started working with her. Since he tended to lead her in a lax way, with a long rope and not paying attention, she recalled this trick from her past. She would start walking ahead of him, until he was behind her shoulder area, then she would take a hard left in front of him and head back towards the paddock. He would be totally surprised and get dragged along back the way they came. It took a few practices to get him to notice how this was starting, and correct her when she started to walk ahead of him - since that was the beginning of the naughty action. She was well trained enough that simply wiggling the lead rope or verbally scolding her made her drop back to her proper position, so it wasn't too difficult to fix the problem. But at root it's a similar problem to yours - the BO's hubby probably wasn't being very attentive, and didn't see the problem starting before it was too late. Then the horse realized he could start playing that old game again.

[sdlbredfan]

Please re-read the excellent advice from onthebit and dwblover.

[Hilary]

The good news though, is that he seems to learn, AND he also seems to know when he can take advantage- you the new, young owner, the BO's less horsey husband. But NOT the BO, who likely has the most experience. They know when they can get away with stuff.

You've been given a lot of good advice, and from your last post it seems to be working so keep it up.

I've had a couple of horses like this and they learned quickly that it's not OK and stopped trying.

I prefer to have a longer lead, a 10' one or a lungeline, or a 'stallion shank' which has a longer chain, longer lead and a big leather disc at the end so it won't slide through your hand. Part of teaching them it's not oK is that they don't get to run off and have fun. But you have to be aware enough to not get in the line of fire while you're teaching him.

I'd wear gloves and a helmet for a while when you lead, and carry a dressage whip.

[sdlbredfan]

Yes, what Hilary said! "I'd wear gloves and a helmet for a while when you lead, and carry a dressage whip."

[cyberbay]

As Conrad Schumacher says, "A bent horse is a controlled horse." It's about leverage. So, keep his neck bent when you're leading him.

If his body gets straight, it has the opportunity to get rigid -- at its most powerful -- which is what will precede that nasty explosion. Race horses are straight as they come out of the gate...

Keep his head and neck down and neck curved very slightly around you, or next to you. It needs to stay there the whole time.

It's not worth getting seriously hurt over. Getting double-barrelled as you did... that gives me the shivers. Hilary is right about wearing gloves and helmet and a vest if you have one.

[FineAlready]

I second, or third, or fourth the advice to use a chain, keep his head down, and hold the rope close to his halter. Here's what I do with a naughty horse:

1. Always use a chain over the nose.
2. I position my right hand so that it is right next to the horse's face (i.e., holding the lead as close to the halter as possible).
3. Keep the excess rope neatly folded in the left hand, which I keep relaxed at my left side.
4. Keep your right arm (the one holding close to the halter) relaxed. Your hand should be closed firmly around the lead, but your arm, shoulder, etc. should be relaxed so that you are not inadvertently tensing and stressing the horse out.
5. Require the horse to walk with its head down low and exactly next to your body. I generally make my horse walk with his head where my arm naturally falls (maybe slightly above my hip).
6. If the horse raises its head (even if not being naughty), pull down steadily until the head comes down.
7. If the horse tries to walk ahead of you, touch you with his nose, push you with his head, etc., yank down hard and sharp a few times on the lead chain and back him up. It is also okay to yell, "knock it off" or something similar. Then walk forward like nothing happened. If it occurs again, repeat.
8. As time goes on and the horse gets more used to the routine, you might be able to just "shake" the chain to remind him that it is there (just sort of jiggle the lead rope) for the more minor indiscretions (such as a nose touch).
9. Never, ever go in a direction that the horse suggests. If the horse tries to go one way, you automatically require that he goes the other way. In a herd, the horse that moves the other horse's feet first is the dominant herd member.
10. Also, never let the horse get its head in front of you. The worst position you can be in is at the horse's shoulder with his head cranked toward you. While it might not seem like it, that horse is dominating you because you have conformed your body to accomodate his behavior (he wanted to walk faster, so you stuck your elbow in his shoulder and pulled his head toward you). You are also in a bad position if the horse tries to spin and kick you.

The thing that helps me the most is to treat all leading of any kind as a strictly business matter. No nosing me for treats, no looking at the horse, no socializing of any kind. It feels sort of mean at first, but the horse ends up happier and you end up not injured.

[AengusOg]

I second, or third, or fourth the advice to use a chain, keep his head down, and hold the rope close to his halter. Here's what I do with a naughty horse:

1. Always use a chain over the nose.
2. I position my right hand so that it is right next to the horse's face (i.e., holding the lead as close to the halter as possible).
3. Keep the excess rope neatly folded in the left hand, which I keep relaxed at my left side.
4. Keep your right arm (the one holding close to the halter) relaxed. Your hand should be closed firmly around the lead, but your arm, shoulder, etc. should be relaxed so that you are not inadvertently tensing and stressing the horse out.
5. Require the horse to walk with its head down low and exactly next to your body. I generally make my horse walk with his head where my arm naturally falls (maybe slightly above my hip).
6. If the horse raises its head (even if not being naughty), pull down steadily until the head comes down.
7. If the horse tries to walk ahead of you, touch you with his nose, push you with his head, etc., yank down hard and sharp a few times on the lead chain and back him up. It is also okay to yell, "knock it off" or something similar. Then walk forward like nothing happened. If it occurs again, repeat.
8. As time goes on and the horse gets more used to the routine, you might be able to just "shake" the chain to remind him that it is there (just sort of jiggle the lead rope) for the more minor indiscretions (such as a nose touch).
9. Never, ever go in a direction that the horse suggests. If the horse tries to go one way, you automatically require that he goes the other way. In a herd, the horse that moves the other horse's feet first is the dominant herd member.
10. Also, never let the horse get its head in front of you. The worst position you can be in is at the horse's shoulder with his head cranked toward you. While it might not seem like it, that horse is dominating you because you have conformed your body to accomodate his behavior (he wanted to walk faster, so you stuck your elbow in his shoulder and pulled his head toward you). You are also in a bad position if the horse tries to spin and kick you.

The thing that helps me the most is to treat all leading of any kind as a strictly business matter. No nosing me for treats, no looking at the horse, no socializing of any kind. It feels sort of mean at first, but the horse ends up happier and you end up not injured.

That's a bit like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I work with some seriously dangerous horses......many of which are that way due to abusive handling such as you describe.

There is no place for yanking chains on horses' heads in good horsemanship, and the suggestion that this is what the OP's horse requires is way off the mark.

What you're advising is that this horse is dominated and made to do what he's told through fear.

I'm afraid the only points I agree with are number three, number ten, and your final paragraph.

[stoicfish]

I agree with the how most in this thread are describing working him to get him over this. In the meantime though- consider something like a chiffney bit or running a chain under his chin rather than over his nose and BE PREPARED for him. Keep his head close to you and butt turned slightly away from you if possible. If you keep you right hand on the shank right where the chain meets the leather (or rope) and your left hand anchored on your left hip- chances are
when he goes to do something stupid and hits that chiffney or chain under nose- you're gonna set him on his ass (which is exactly what he needs). Please, please be proactive with this before someone gets really hurt

I like this answer.
I think abusive is when you overreact or react to the horse not understanding using any type of violence. If this boy was simply trying to run off then that is one thing. This kid is kicking. I would defiantly set him on his ass. Regardless of how he came to the conclusion that kicking is necessary the fact is he is trying to hurt people. If he can not learn to like people enough to not kick than he has to respect people enough (aka think his well being is in danger) not to kick.

[FineAlready]

That's a bit like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I work with some seriously dangerous horses......many of which are that way due to abusive handling such as you describe.

There is no place for yanking chains on horses' heads in good horsemanship, and the suggestion that this is what the OP's horse requires is way off the mark.

What you're advising is that this horse is dominated and made to do what he's told through fear.

I'm afraid the only points I agree with are number three, number ten, and your final paragraph.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm not sure how walking the horse with a chain and a loose, relaxed arm positioned close to the halter is abusive, but to each his own. I imagine you are referring to actually using the chain as being abusive. I'm not suggesting you shank the crap out of the horse (these should be fairly short, quick, and not overly strenuous tugs - probably not more than one or two), but engaging the chain when the horse is out of line will correct the problem pretty quickly. And then, guess what? You won't have to use the chain anymore! I almost never have to actually engage the chain. I've probably only had to actually engage the chain about 5 times in my horse's whole life. And I think that he would attest that he has not been "abused" in any way. This horse winnies to me every time I walk past his stall (and no, I do not feed - he's boarded...and no, I don't feed treats, either). He is not fearful of anyone and gallops to the gate when I come to collect him from the paddock. He's just the picture of abuse, let me tell you.

Also, let's keep in mind that the OP's horse has already kicked two people due to his poor leading behavior. This needs to be nipped in the bud, like, now. It's much worse for the horse in the long run if he learns that he can get away with this behavior. I think it is "abusive" when people refuse to train their horses to complete basic tasks such as leading because they are against using a simple chain over the nose. Those are the "rank" horses you are describing. And they end up in bad, bad places more often than not.

Finally - prediction: the OP won't have to use the chain at all if he or she simply holds the lead rope closer to the horse's head and requires the horse to keep it's head low. BUT, the chain should still be there in case it is needed. If it comes down to using a chain or getting kicked, sorry, but the chain should be used.

[Arbitrary]

What would really bother me about this situation, both as a BO and a horse owner, is that you report he has kicked the BO's hubby twice and you once just in the last two weeks. It would be one thing if he were just trying to get away which is bad enough, but to me this is an extremely dangerous situation since each time he is kicking someone. Thank goodness he hasn't gotten anyone in the head yet or broken bones. (I realize you are concerned about someone getting hurt) If a horse at my barn had kicked me, my husband, or anyone that works here three times in two weeks this would be a dangerous horse in my book, and not allowed to stay if it happened again.

What I would do with a horse like this, after the first incident, is be hyper-aware of his body language because somehow he is letting you know it is coming. You mentioned the arched neck for example. Or he could just be slightly lifting his head, or invading your space, or something. When I am leading a horse that I know can be a jerk, first of all I don't ever lead them without a chain on their nose. Secondly I teach them to lower their head quickly when I put some pressure on the leadrope. This can usually be learned fairly easily in a couple of short sessions. Then, as soon as I detect the slightest signal of something being amiss, I put them to work, hard. They have to back up, longe around me, back up some more, longe some more, etc. I am also very firm about where they are allowed to be in respect to me when I am leading them. They can't drag me along, they have to stop immediately if I stop moving, and if I slow down or speed up they have to do the same. After a few sessions of all of this I can keep the situation safe and calm simply by continually varying my walk speed from faster to slower and throwing in some halts as well. As I am walking along I also ask them to lower their heads, and ask for it to go lower and lower and mix this in with the varying walk speeds and halts. They have to stay focused on me and what I am doing and it keeps their mind from wandering to bad places. This approach has been effective with some pretty rank horses on the ground and soon enough they respect me and stop being difficult. I never let my guard drop though and always keep them occupied as I am leading them. A horse does not have to be non-stop challenging you to be rank IMO, and this guy has shown repeatedly that he absolutely will aim for you.

Agree with OTB here.

I had a TB who engaged in the same kind of antics you describe - he was DANGEROUS without being particularly malevolent. He would sometimes, out of the blue, bolt by while being led, and double barrel. He would rear, buck in place, strike. He was good about 90% of the time. He was *always* good under saddle. Unfortunately he was handled by multiple people, all of whom he tested with this behavior. I was terrified he'd hurt someone. I also lost my own confidence when he pulled that crap with me. He was getting a terrible reputation.

I hired a H/J trainer at the barn to work with him on ground manners - until I saw him forging ahead of her a few times when she didn't happen to have a whip with her (which seemed to be how she was trying to teach him manners). I also saw him ignore the chain over his nose as he forged ahead of her.

Frustrated, I turned to a trainer who trained *me* via groundwork to help the horse. It does all come down to respect, consistency, and corrections without anger. I can't tell you what to do but I can share my experience.

I grew up showing hunters, but never learned the kind of horsemanship I needed to know later as a horseowner; the horses I rode were made. I was cocky, frankly - no way to be if you want to be a horseman/woman! I was pretty close-minded to NH/whatever you call it, but I can tell you it (or shades of it, anyway) saved my fanny (and the horse too).

Early on, I learned about disengaging the hindquarters/getting horse to step under himself - that getting the horse to move his feet at MY prompting was going to be the key.

During one lesson, the horse went waaay up on his hinds (but obviously wasn't going to flip) - trainer had me RUN after his hip with a long stick (trainer called it an extension of my arm) and whack it. I did - and the horse, I swear, looked ASTONISHED. He immediately came down and went forward (I had a long rope attached to his halter). He never reared again. Lightbulb went on for me.

She forbade me from hand-feeding. Another lightbulb.

Every single time you touch your horse, you are training him. Every single time you touch the horse, you have the opportunity to read him, and the opportunity to set the tone for that session.

I taught him to put his head down by touching his poll. Tugging the lead would be the same idea - giving to pressure. Amazingly it worked during high-excitement moments for him (loose neighbor horses, etc).

When I brought him in from the pasture, I asked him questions from the moment I touched him. e.g. Will you drop your head if I touch your poll? Will you alternate slow walk/working walk depending on my pace? Will you move your hip if I look at it? Will you back up willingly? Will you change direction right. here. smoothly and willingly?

He became my chore horse - I led him as I mucked out paddocks, etc. and soon, he was a different horse.

In the end, I learned that I hadn't helped him any, earlier, because I spoiled the sh** out of him, I was one of those starry-eyed owners, and I let my fear of him dictate what I did with him. There was no respect there.

Sorry about the book.

My advice: Do groundwork, and maybe find a competent trainer to train YOU while you work with him. He will come around so long as you're consistent, and everyone who handles him understands what the plan is.

[AengusOg]

Arbitrary has it.:yes: