Vaccines: A Must See! HR & NHR

[caballus]

10 min. segment of information about vaccines

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5-o

[deltawave]

Where would we be without conspiracy theories? :lol:

He's a radio host. Sort of on the same level of credentials as Rush Limbaugh. :rolleyes: His list of publications does include Penthouse, though. :lol:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html

[caballus]

Hey Delta ... how come I'm not surprised to see you reply? *GRIN* ... Question for you - can you, instead of focusing on Gary Null, focus on what he says and show proof that he is mistaken in what he's saying as you believe? Conspiracy theorist or not I don't really care - what I care about is his alleged statements about the lack of testing for vaccinations and the results he is stating.

Where would one go to find out the results of long term studies of vaccinations? Any links you could share?

[deltawave]

Well Gwen, I could say the same--no surprises on either side of the debate. :)

show proof that he is mistaken in what he's saying as you believe? Conspiracy theorist or not I don't really care - what I care about is his alleged statements about the lack of testing for vaccinations and the results he is stating

That's asking a lot--I don't know how much time you have, but I don't have enough time to sit down and lay out an education in basic biology, pathophysiology, immunology, the scientific method, modern R&D for vaccines, the FDA approval process and its flaws vs. strengths, etc. etc.

At any level of this process it is beyond simple to completely blow Mr. Null's arguments out of the water, but how can I "prove" that to you? Why would you believe me on this score when you believe nothing else I say? You say you like to find things out for yourself--I invite you to do so here. Go to www.fda.gov (http://www.fda.gov) and look at the vaccination approval process. Working backwards from there, check Medline (www.pubmed.gov (http://www.pubmed.gov)) and search for the published studies on the particular vaccines you're concerned about. Don't forget to take along your familiarity with the scientific method, the nuance of statistics, and your background in immunology, etc. as outlined above.

It is bloody hard work to be able to read scientific literature critically and form good, sound conclusions. It is apparently quite easy, by contrast, to get an uproar going by doing NONE of the above, but rather to selectively quote statistics at random, misinterpret studies, and mercilessly flog what data are out there into a shape that resembles one's pet theory.

Sound familiar? It is as old as the notion of inquiry vs. dogma. If you're going to tell me that if I would only provide you with a carefully-spelled-out thesis on this topic then you would reject your already historically immovable stand, I'd have to tell you that you have to do your homework first. Read 12-15 books on physiology, biology, immunology, statistics, research methods, virology, pathology, etc. and then we can talk at a level where we'll be speaking the same language. By this I mean no disrespect and do not say it in a "talking down" sense, but by the time you got to the end of those books, I think your questions would be A LOT DIFFERENT, Gwen. :)

[Guilherme]

Junk science at its finest.

Note that in the preamble he says, specifically, that he's not talking about all vaccines, just the "bad" ones. OK, this I can understand. But then he very craftily negotiates a verbal obsticle course that never really identifies good ones or bad ones. Cicero would be very proud of him.

Sadly, as the scientific IQ of the U.S. populace declines this sort of stuff proliferates. Consider it the modern analog of the "medicine show" of the 19th Century. But without the "hoochie-coochie" dancer.

Or, to parphrase Forrest Gump: junk science is as junk science does.

G.

[chirojerry]

Everybody needs to make an informed choice about vaccines. It is a risk vs benefit. I have two kids and lots of patients who have never had a shot and they are all very healthy. Im not for or against vaccination. But we should each make a choice for ourselves. When you study vaccines. You will make the right choice. Jerry

[Pony Fixer]

My former career was as an immunologist. Only 4 minutes in, he has spoken many "half truths" which in his own words, is a "whole lie". There ARE random, peer reviewed, double blinded studies on vaccines in humans, and several other mammal species. In animals, there are also challenge studies. There is pretty convincing evidence for efficacy--in fact animal vaccine manufacturers GUARANTEE effectiveness if given properly (to the tune of $$$ if pet gets the disease--and they do actually pay up IME).

As far as risk, anything taken internally has risk. Food (hello E. coli), medications (hello thalidomide), air (hello mesothelioma) all have risks, and add vaccines to that list. Studies are not perfect, and every person does not react the same. Clinical trials of hundreds does not equal mass distribution to millions.

Life isn't perfect, but the goal is to do more good than harm.

[deltawave]

Everything is risk vs. benefit in one way or another. And generally we all feel we are correct in the choices we make . . . until we are proven wrong. ;)

[AKB]

I agree that we all need to make informed choices about vaccines. The pneumococcal and meningococcal vaccines mean that I don't routinely see cases of meningitis at work. I used to see several kids with meningitis each year. Those vaccines are safe, effective, and prevent a horrible disease.

In contrast, you certainly won't see me lining up to get a yellow fever vaccine. It's a vaccine with substantial risks, and I don't travel in the areas with a lot of yellow fever. When we were supposed to go and help out at a spay neuter clinic in Mexico last spring (until our flights were cancelled due to the swine flu outbreak) I made very sure to get rabies vaccine and hepatitis A vaccine. In the right situation, those vaccines are a good way in increase your chances of coming home alive and well.

If you want to make an informed choice, you need to do lots of reading. There are lots of good studies about vaccine risks and benefits. The CDC website is a good place to start. I attended a vaccine conference last year, and was totally impressed by the amount of vaccine research that is ongoing. If you really want to learn about vaccines, consider attending this conference, which is held twice a year.
http://www.nfid.org/conferences/

[chaltagor]

It is a risk vs benefit.

I highly doubt you would be saying the same if you were a parent with a young child in 1955 when the polio vaccine became available. I wonder why parents aren't worried about polio today?

[deltawave]

I think what chirojerry meant was that the risk/benefit ratio must be calculated, which of course is true for everything we do.

In the mid-20th century the risk/benefit ratio for the polio vaccine was skewed gigantically toward the "benefit" side. OTOH, pondering an anthrax vaccine for a healthy, non-animal-exposed adult in the USA (barring psychopathic bioterrorists) probably has a risk/benefit ratio that would favor NOT vaccinating vs. anthrax.

There is a ratio for all things. If the ratio comes out on the side that risk exceeds benefit, you don't do whatever it is you're contemplating, be it a vaccine, bypass surgery or a facelift. What tends to be mutilated in the non-scientific, under-informed sphere is the actual risk/benefit ratios, which are actually enormously on the "benefit" side for vaccines in general and in particular, exceptions of course existing as in everything else. And to make it even more interesting, we are all given the right to choose what we perceive as "benefit" and what we perceive as "risk". :)

[loshad]

And then, of course, there are all the folks who are relying on herd immunity to protect them from the dangers (both real and imagined) of vaccines. Not being vaccinated and being healthy doesn't necessarily mean a darn thing.

[Guilherme]

Everybody needs to make an informed choice about vaccines. It is a risk vs benefit. I have two kids and lots of patients who have never had a shot and they are all very healthy. Im not for or against vaccination. But we should each make a choice for ourselves. When you study vaccines. You will make the right choice. Jerry

Informed choice, yes. But drivel that was posted is mis- and dis-information. That should be loudly condemned.

We should also remember that we stand on the shoulders of giants. Up until the development of effective antibiotics death rates from common injury were high, as were child mortality rates. Ditto for death rates from common diseases that are now rare. We're reaping the benefits of our ancestors' actions in reducing disease accross the board. We should carefully consider our actions in light of theirs.

We had this discussion with our son over the program for his daughter (and our first grand-daughter). Fortunately he listened to his mother (a Board Certified M.D., MPH, and specialist in Occupational and Environmental Medicine). The kid is hale and hearty.

G.

[caballus]

And then, of course, there are all the folks who are relying on herd immunity to protect them from the dangers (both real and imagined) of vaccines. Not being vaccinated and being healthy doesn't necessarily mean a darn thing.I'm sorry, I wasn't going to add any more to this discussion but this statement, "being healthy doesn't necessarily mean a darn thing." is just too much to ignore. Being healthy .. the definition of health is ... 'freedom from dis-ease physically, mentally and spiritually' ... good grief! If being 'healthy' has nothing to do with staying healthy then what the hell was the immune system 'created' for? The immune system is an amazing, AMAZING system of our bodies .. horses AND humans. It is made to fight off invaders. It can do so only WHEN healthy and in balance. Good Lord ... !!!

[Androcles]

Where would we be without the facile dismissal of criticism as a conspiracy theory.

Where would we be without conspiracy theories? :lol:


My favorite part is where he talks about the NIH vaccine efficacy study on pregnant women that excluded any woman that spiked a temperature within 72 hrs of receiving the vaccine.

[S A McKee]

I'm sorry, I wasn't going to add any more to this discussion but this statement, "being healthy doesn't necessarily mean a darn thing." is just too much to ignore. Being healthy .. the definition of health is ... 'freedom from dis-ease physically, mentally and spiritually' ... good grief! If being 'healthy' has nothing to do with staying healthy then what the hell was the immune system 'created' for? The immune system is an amazing, AMAZING system of our bodies .. horses AND humans. It is made to fight off invaders. It can do so only WHEN healthy and in balance. Good Lord ... !!!

You missed the point. Again.
Herd immunity may protect you.
If you do not receive a vaccine and do not get the disease the vaccine is protecting you from you really just got lucky by way of enough people in your 'herd' having immunity.
Nothing to do with your personal immune system.

[deltawave]

I'm sorry, I wasn't going to add any more to this discussion but this statement, "being healthy doesn't necessarily mean a darn thing." is just too much to ignore. You take a slice of loshad's post and use it out of context and make it sound like something completely beside the point here. Although I don't want to make the same mistake in the other direction by re-interpreting what loshad wrote, to me it seems like the statement in full Not being vaccinated and being healthy doesn't necessarily mean a darn thing. intimates that there is not always a corollary (is that how you spell that?) between being unvaccinated and being healthy. One can be unvaccinated for rabies (for instance) and never, ever get rabies. Hardly a miracle if one is never, ever exposed. :) On the other hand, one can not vaccinate their child against polio and the child will more than likely never get polio. Why? Because virtually every other child IS vaccinated. It is a matter of context, and snipping the convenient parts away from what someone else is saying to make one's point is, well, lame.

[SarEQ]

I don't think many people also understand the severity of small pox, polio... and all those other diseases we now have vaccines for. These were not like the chicken pox or a common cold. They were prevelant and nasty.

Second of all... I don't think many people understand you cannot prove anything in science. If you talk to a scientist about proving something, they will laugh at you. In science a theory is something that is very, very likely true... but because nothing can be proven, you don't say it is a fact. I've heard scientist refer to 'the theory of gravity'. The idea behind theories is that you can never look at a set of data and say that "well this is safe because no one got sick" because maybe there was a vital part missing in transmission. Maybe the shots were administered wrong. Maybe, maybe, maybe. So asking to prove something is not going to happen.

If enough people do not vaccinate, herd immunity will fail. These diseases were not wiped out. Just because someone doesn't vaccinate and their kid doesn't get sick doesn't mean it's all ok. Guess what... kids a hundred years ago grew up too! We wouldn't be talking now if they hadn't. But many kids also died of diseases we can now prevent. Why should anyone have to suffer that?

To avoid vaccines that carry a small risk? Anyone who really believes there is a link between autism and vaccines needs to read real scientific articles.

Who will you believe? Jenny McCarthy and all that anti-vaccine vomit she spews? May I ask where she got her degree? I'd prefer to listen to the real scientists. Believe it or not, not every doctor and every scientist is so amoral that they'll give kids something harmful for money from pharmaceutical companies.. Really, I swear.

Are vaccines 100% safe? No. You can have reactions from them. They can cause harm. But for the majority of people, they provide a benefit- be it growing to adulthood or not having to watch their child be crippled by polio because that disease has nearly been wiped out by herd immunity. People still wear seat belts, and there are drivers who have died because they couldn't unfasten their belts fast enough to flee the burning car.

[whbar158]

Vaccines have their very important place in our lives. For us and our animals. Do I get a vaccine for everything? No. Do I vaccinate my horse for everything? No. But I do get shots and get them for my horse for things that we will likely get exposed to that could pose a big threat for our health.

[caballus]

An Expert Pediatrician, Dr. Palevsky, stated in a recent interview,

"For example, one article published in 2000 in the Pediatrics Journal describes how, before the World War II, the majority of the infectious diseases the US was faced with – such as diphtheria, tetanus, polio, pertussis, measles, influenza, parapertussis, tuberculosis and scarlet fever – were all reduced before World War II and BEFORE there were antibiotics and vaccinations available to treat or to vaccinate against these diseases.

The reasons for the reductions in incidence rates and mortality of these diseases were predominantly due to the implementation of public health strategies, including:

* Clean water
* Better living conditions
* Improved sanitation
* Improved nutrition

There are many such examples."

If someone has that journal issue I would like to see the article, please? I've read other accounts over the years of similar reports. Unfortunately, did not make note of the references but merely tucked the info away in my own mind.

[caballus]

An Expert Pediatrician, Dr. Palevsky, stated in a recent interview,

"For example, one article published in 2000 in the Pediatrics Journal describes how, before the World War II, the majority of the infectious diseases the US was faced with – such as diphtheria, tetanus, polio, pertussis, measles, influenza, parapertussis, tuberculosis and scarlet fever – were all reduced before World War II and BEFORE there were antibiotics and vaccinations available to treat or to vaccinate against these diseases.

The reasons for the reductions in incidence rates and mortality of these diseases were predominantly due to the implementation of public health strategies, including:

* Clean water
* Better living conditions
* Improved sanitation
* Improved nutrition

There are many such examples."

If someone has that journal issue I would like to see the article, please? I've read other accounts over the years of similar reports. Unfortunately, did not make note of the references but merely tucked the info away in my own mind.

I also wanted to address the herd immunity with a bit of example.

This past summer I volunteered care at a non-profit stable for underprivileged kids. EVERY HORSE THERE, 10 of them, succumbed to Strangles. Everyone of them there were vaccinated against it. The symptoms ranged from minimal to full, blown out necks oozing, gushing with pus. After being there I had to come home to tend my own guys - none of whom are vaccinated. The ages of my guys run from 3 to 28. The youngsters have never been exposed to Strangles prior to this. I was nervous - I was very nervous. However, pleased and thankful that not one of my guys ever presented with even a sniffle or a cough. I have 9 equine here. I've had other occasions over the years where my own horses have been DIRECTLY exposed to Strangles through water troughs with infected horses (I was boarding them out at the time) and again, no symptoms, no Strangles. They, again, were not vaccinated against Strangles and one of them was very immuno compromised and struggled with life threatening heaves (thus, I stopped vaccinating at that time when I had him.)

I do have other horses coming in and out here so am not a completely 'closed herd'.

When I DID vaccinate or I did have horses here boarding who were getting vaccinated I saw various responses to the vet-administered vaccines from feverish, stiff necks to full blown stove-piped legs and inability to move for days. I also had one horse (boarded) whose neck blew up like a balloon and that horse almost strangled to death, unable to breath.

So, been on both spectrums of the vaccine issue with horses. Also with people. So, I DO question the validity of vaccinations and I post articles or videos as I do to get people to t.h.i.n.k. for themselves rather than just willy-nilly, blindly accepting whatever is passed out to them.

[Thomas_1]

10 min. segment of information about vaccines

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5-o

Have you ever seen or heard of the great Comedienne Catherine Tate?

She does a sketch character called Nan that immediately sprung to mind. This link opens and closes with the appropriate catch phrase:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tGUtgZ5dKU&feature=related

[Posting Trot]

I'm sorry, I wasn't going to add any more to this discussion but this statement, "being healthy doesn't necessarily mean a darn thing." is just too much to ignore. Being healthy .. the definition of health is ... 'freedom from dis-ease physically, mentally and spiritually' ... good grief! If being 'healthy' has nothing to do with staying healthy then what the hell was the immune system 'created' for? The immune system is an amazing, AMAZING system of our bodies .. horses AND humans. It is made to fight off invaders. It can do so only WHEN healthy and in balance. Good Lord ... !!!

I think what Loshad meant is that the herd immunity can protect a number of people who decline to get the vaccinations. Thus, the fact that those non-immunized people don't get sick is not necessarily a vindication of the point of view that vaccinations are not worthwhile.

The herd immunity is the idea that if enough members of the herd are effectively vaccinated against a particular disease, a minority can (probably) survive without the vaccination because their chances of ever coming into contact with the disease (via a diseased individual) have substantially declined BECAUSE so many have received the vaccination.

As a larger and larger portion of the group refuses vaccination, "the herd" becomes less immune because it becomes more likely that one or more individuals will actually contract the disease and then spread it to other members of the herd.

This is problematic for several reasons:
1) not everyone *can* be immunized. People with compromised immune systems (those living with HIV for example, or very young babies) can't be vaccinated usually. They are thus completely reliant on "herd immunity" for remaining disease-free.
2) Not everyone who is immunized develops an effective immunity to the disease. If they are exposed to an active case of the disease, they may succumb.
3) If there's a large enough population of non-vaccinated people who contract the disease, you'll get an epidemic developing. That can have a broad set of effects, including the possibility of a new strain of the disease developing (that will affect those immunized against the older version of the disease), the development of secondary infections that then become epidemic, the overwhelming of health-care institutions, etc.

[deltawave]

So, I DO question the validity of vaccinations and I post articles or videos as I do to get people to t.h.i.n.k. for themselves rather than just willy-nilly, blindly accepting whatever is passed out to them. And a youtube video featuring a crank is the best possible way of disseminating information? Why not some citations of actual research supporting your point of view?

[Albion]

So, been on both spectrums of the vaccine issue with horses. Also with people. So, I DO question the validity of vaccinations and I post articles or videos as I do to get people to t.h.i.n.k. for themselves rather than just willy-nilly, blindly accepting whatever is passed out to them.

I've gotten a lot of vaccinations in my life - I travel pretty extensively to areas where all sorts of lovely diseases (many mosquito borne) are endemic . Some of them, like Japanese encephalitis, are more likely than not to just give you a nasty headache or flu-like symptoms, but they can and do kill people.

That doesn't mean I walk into the drs. and get everything on the list. I get vaccinated for specific things for specific reasons. But I always wonder if people who stomp their feet about vaccines actually leave the safety of the American 'herd' and environment. :confused: People who refuse to get vaccines aren't the only ones who actually "t.h.i.n.k", though they like to act like they are.

[Ghazzu]

Using strangles vaccine as an example of vaccine failure is a bit disingenuous, considering pretty much anyone who is knowledgeable about it will tell you it is of questionable efficacy (either variety, the IM or the IN).
Not only that, it can have some rather ugly adverse effects.

I'll counter with the fact that I've treated horses with strangles for over 20 years, have horses at home, have not vaccinated them for strangles, and they have been fine.

However, I definitely vaccinate for rabies...

[Thomas_1]

In the UK there isn't a licenced strangles vaccine.

The US one doesn't pass the higher standard of efficacy.

Because of that we manage strangles over here via quarantine and clean management protocols.

However for sure I vaccinate for tetanus and also for equine influenza.

[caballus]

And a youtube video featuring a crank is the best possible way of disseminating information? Why not some citations of actual research supporting your point of view?Well, the idea that someone is a crank or not is an opinion isn't it? I'm not disagreeing with you - just making a statement. I also merely posted a video without stating an opinion at all. Or, perhaps, maybe the mere posting of it was, in fact, stating my opinion? With 2 daughters and a husband who have also extensively traveled in the Mission field to the worst 3rd world countries I am thankful that they had to get their various shots. So I am not anti-vaccine all the way, Folks.

Not disingenuous at all, Ghazzu ... I mentioned the Strangles as an example but also understand that NO vaccine is 100%. The reactions of the other horses I mentioned were standard, annual vaccines received. EWT, Rhino, Rabies, etc. Some were singular and others combos. The more recent ones were combos - the others, with the severe reaction was a Rhino/Flu if I remember correctly. It was many years ago.

Just for the record here -- I USED to vaccinate my horses religiously, deworm religiously (yeah, even tube deworming on a regular basis as was the protocol years ago) but started thinking on all this when I overheard my OWN vet say to someone that we overvaccinate. This was about 10 years ago. About the same time I had a conversation with the man who was either the Dir. of the Farm Bureau or a member of the board, can't remember, and he mentioned that yeah, while vaccinating was strongly recommended and pushed he had never vaccinated his own animals and didn't intend on ever doing so believing that good nutrition and good care was the key to keeping healthy immune systems so the animals can fight off infections as they're intended to do ... then I started reading more and more veterinary accounts (and medical accounts) about the whole shebang. Another vet whose services I used regularly back in the 70's and 80's has also stopped vaccinating as has several of her colleagues.

[Thomas_1]

^ yeh right!

At first glance, your posting may seem benign but regular readers know that you have a pechant to be attracted to post in a seemingly unopinionated way on matters relating to vaccine and other similar medical topics.

You often post in a manner that seems prone to procrastination or to stimulate discussion or elicit evidence.

You always oppose requests to back up your knowledge or subject matter and find excuses for poor outcomes. You frequently find fault with scientific clinical evidence and research and cite bunkum.

I agree with you though. You're not being disingenous.

Rather it's all classic example of passive aggressive behaviour.

On this occasion you've posted a link to a crank and to mimic Catherine Tate "what a load of old ****"

[caballus]

Thanks, Thomas ... why don't you really tell us how you feel? *LOL*

[twofatponies]

Go to an old cemetery and look at the gravestones of the many, many children who used to die within a year of birth, as many still do in places where vaccination and medical care are not widely available.

Ask your grandmother about the many friends and relatives she knew who were crippled from polio, or died young from whooping cough, etc. Even my mother remembers the quarantines for whooping cough when she was a young child, and the agony of that illness.

We can be cavalier about it now, because these dangers seem so far away. We'd be singing a different tune if we didn't HAVE the vaccines and all lived in fear of imminent death from common epidemics of fatal diseases.

[chaltagor]

Well, the idea that someone is a crank or not is an opinion isn't it?

No.

[caballus]

Hmmmmmm then the journal to which Dr. Pavlesky refers was lying?

""For example, one article published in 2000 in the Pediatrics Journal describes how, before the World War II, the majority of the infectious diseases the US was faced with – such as diphtheria, tetanus, polio, pertussis, measles, influenza, parapertussis, tuberculosis and scarlet fever – were all reduced before World War II and BEFORE there were antibiotics and vaccinations available to treat or to vaccinate against these diseases."

Notice the word 'BEFORE' World War II and BEFORE there were antibiotics and vaccinations.

So I can assume that you've all gotten your H1N1 vaccine, then?

[caballus]

"ScienceDaily (Nov. 8, 2007) — A new study published in the New England Journal of Medicine* by Oregon Health & Science University researchers suggests that timelines for vaccinating and revaccinating Americans against disease should possibly be reevaluated and adjusted. The study shows that in many cases, the established duration of protective immunity for many vaccines is greatly underestimated. This means that people are getting booster shots when their immunity levels most likely do not require it. "

Now, that was back in 2007. Wonder what they say now? Anyone have any recent articles. Oh, wait! Science Daily and the New England Journal of Medicine aren't quackery, are they?

[Ghazzu]

With your love of strawmen, I'm surprised you don't take up tilting at a quintain.

There's a considerable gulf between "duration of immunity is often longer than it was thought to be" and "vaccines are a plot by big pharma to make you sick"...

[caballus]

With your love of strawmen, I'm surprised you don't take up tilting at a quintain.

There's a considerable gulf between "duration of immunity is often longer than it was thought to be" and "vaccines are a plot by big pharma to make you sick"...I agree ... so what is the balance?

As for 'tilting at the quintain' -- had to look it up but actually it looks like it might be fun.

[Posting Trot]

Broad public sanitation measures and better and more broadly available health care, as well as provision of decontaminated water and the piping away of sewage (particularly in urban centers) over the course of the 20th century, did have an enormous impact on public health. And yes, that impact rivals the impact that vaccines have had. No question. And the general rise of the standard of living among people in the west has also had an impact.

But that doesn't mean that vaccines or antibiotics haven't had a positive effect.

[chaltagor]

National Science Foundation: Science Hard
June 5, 2002 | Issue 38•21

TheOnion - INDIANAPOLIS—The National Science Foundation's annual symposium concluded Monday, with the 1,500 scientists in attendance reaching the consensus that science is hard.

"For centuries, we have embraced the pursuit of scientific knowledge as one of the noblest and worthiest of human endeavors, one leading to the enrichment of mankind both today and for future generations," said keynote speaker and NSF chairman Louis Farian. "However, a breakthrough discovery is challenging our long-held perceptions about our discipline—the discovery that science is really, really hard."

"My area of expertise is the totally impossible science of particle physics," Farian continued, "but, indeed, this newly discovered 'Law of Difficulty' holds true for all branches of science, from astronomy to molecular biology and everything in between."

The science-is-hard theorem, first posited by a team of MIT professors in 1990, was slow to gain acceptance within the science community. It gathered momentum following the 1997 publication of physicist Stephen Hawking's breakthrough paper, "Lorentz Variation And Gravitation Is Just About The Hardest Friggin' Thing In The Known Universe."

This weekend's conference, featuring symposia on how hard the Earth sciences are, how confusing medical science is, and how ridiculously un-gettable quantum physics is, represented a major step forward for the science-is-hard theorem.

"We now believe that the theorem is 99.999% likely to be true, after applying these incredibly complex statistical techniques that gave me a splitting headache," Farian said. "A theorem is like a theory, but, I don't know, it's different."

Members of the scientific establishment were quick to affirm the NSF discovery.

"To be a scientist, you have to learn all this weird stuff, like how many molecules are in a proton," University of Chicago physicist Dr. Erno Heidegger said. "While it is true that I have become an acclaimed physicist and reaped great rewards from my career, one must not lose sight of the fact that these blessings came only after studying all of this completely impossible, egghead stuff for years."

Dr. Ahmed Zewail, a Caltech chemist whose spectroscopic studies of the transition states of chemical reactions earned him the Nobel Prize in 1999, explained in layman's terms just how hard the discipline of chemistry is, using the periodic table of the elements as a model.

"Take the element of tungsten and work to memorize its place in the periodic table, its atomic symbol, its atomic number and weight, what it looks like, where it's found, and its uses to humanity, if any," Zewail said. "Now, imagine memorizing the other 100-plus elements making up the periodic table. You'd have to be, like, some kind of total brain to do that."

As hard as chemistry and other traditional sciences may be, scientists say such newer disciplines as quantum physics are even more difficult.

"Quantum physics has always been a particularly tough branch of science," UCLA physicist Dr. Hideki Watanabe said. "But in addition to being some of the smartest Einstein-y stuff around, it is undeniably a really stupid, pointless thing to study, something you could never actually use in the real world. This paradoxical dual state may one day lead to a new understanding of physics as a way to confuse and bore people."

"I guess there's cool stuff about science," Watanabe continued, "like space travel and bombs. But that stuff is so hard, it's honestly not even worth the effort."

[deltawave]

I love the Onion. :) I wish I could post that whole thing as my signature line. :D

[Cielo Azure]

"ScienceDaily (Nov. 8, 2007) — A new study published in the New England Journal of Medicine* by Oregon Health & Science University researchers suggests that timelines for vaccinating and revaccinating Americans against disease should possibly be reevaluated and adjusted. The study shows that in many cases, the established duration of protective immunity for many vaccines is greatly underestimated. This means that people are getting booster shots when their immunity levels most likely do not require it.

1) THINK HARD ABOUT THIS: WOULD YOU RATHER THAT the established duration of protective immunity for many vaccines is greatly OVERestimated? Who in public health is going to choose between whether immunity is GONE (as in NO protection) between vaccinations for some people or some overlap??? ummm. DUH...

2) B.T.W. you are quoting a daily science rag that is quoting a scientific journal. Third hand references tend to get lost in translation. Being intellectually lazy in such discussions is a good way to look very, very foolish.

You live in your little safe, cushioned world and don't have a clue. Lets take a real life example: Dengue. An emerging infectious disease (as in it was almost unheard of 50 years ago). WHO now reports that 2.5 billion people, two fifths of the world's population, are now at risk from dengue and they estimate that there may be 50 million cases of dengue infection worldwide every year. The disease is now endemic in more than 100 countries. (WHO) estimates that 50 to 100 million infections occur yearly, including 500,000 DHF (dengue hemorrhagic fever -very, very bad) cases and 22,000 deaths, mostly among children. Dengue is now the leading cause of morbidity in American and European travelers as well as military personnel. Recently, locally acquired dengue infections have been reported in Texas, Hawaii, and the Middle East. Scientists note that global warming has allowed tropical diseases, particularly those that are mosquito-and water-born, to begin to spread to the temperate zone.

In five years, there will be a licensed vaccine (there are 39 clinical trials in progress [from clinical trials.gov] - and yes, it is rigously being tested for safety). In ten years, people in Asia will probably not even think of it as a threat anymore and people here probably won't know how many have died from it. In fifteen years, morons like you will bitch and moan because their public health officials suggest they might get vaccinated before traveling to the tropics or if they live in the SE.

Welcome to the world of the public health official, physicians and scientists -dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

[JSwan]

I love the Onion. :) I wish I could post that whole thing as my signature line. :D


Just use "I Love The Onion".

Those of us who love The Onion will understand.:lol:

[caballus]

In fifteen years, morons like you will bitch and moan because their public health officials suggest they might get vaccinated before traveling to the tropics or if they live in the SE.
Um, well, this 'moron' actually did not 'bitch' about vaccines before going to the 3rd world countries if you bothered to read what I actually said ... I SAID,

"...traveled in the Mission field to the worst 3rd world countries I am thankful that they had to get their various shots. So I am not anti-vaccine all the way, Folks."

You said to me, "Being intellectually lazy in such discussions is a good way to look very, very foolish.' and I say, in return to you, Not reading for comprehension and misquoting another poster is a good way to look very, very foolish."

But thank you for stating your opinion. It's always interesting to read what others think.

[Cielo Azure]

"Also with people. So, I DO question the validity of vaccinations and I post articles or videos as I do to get people to t.h.i.n.k. for themselves rather than just willy-nilly, blindly accepting whatever is passed out to them."

The problem is that you have made a lot of assertions in your posts (and a lot of opinions -despite asserting that you haven't in an earlier post). Finding that ONE quote of yours that says that your family is vaccinated means very little, because there are ten others that directly contradict it.

[caballus]

"Also with people. So, I DO question the validity of vaccinations and I post articles or videos as I do to get people to t.h.i.n.k. for themselves rather than just willy-nilly, blindly accepting whatever is passed out to them."

The problem is that you have made a lot of assertions in your posts (and a lot of opinions -despite asserting that you haven't in an earlier post). Finding that ONE quote of yours that says that your family is vaccinated means very little, because there are ten others that directly contradict it. Please show me where I contradict it and what assertions I've made.

[Guilherme]

Hmmmmmm then the journal to which Dr. Pavlesky refers was lying?

""For example, one article published in 2000 in the Pediatrics Journal describes how, before the World War II, the majority of the infectious diseases the US was faced with – such as diphtheria, tetanus, polio, pertussis, measles, influenza, parapertussis, tuberculosis and scarlet fever – were all reduced before World War II and BEFORE there were antibiotics and vaccinations available to treat or to vaccinate against these diseases."

Notice the word 'BEFORE' World War II and BEFORE there were antibiotics and vaccinations.

So I can assume that you've all gotten your H1N1 vaccine, then?

Lying? Unknown.

Accurating analyzing data? Probably not.

Google the good doctor's name and you'll learn some interesting things about him.

G.

[caballus]

This, from his own website (yes, I googled it. This was about all I could find on him. Do you have other references?):

"Dr. Palevsky is a board certified pediatrician who uses a holistic approach in his practice of pediatric medicine. He integrates the use of western medicine and alternative therapies to prevent and treat children's illnesses, and offers options to families who are interested in a broader medical approach to their children's health and wellness. Dr. Palevsky values the role(s) illness may play in children's lives and supports the use of safe, non-suppressive treatments to assist them in their healing. He is a strong advocate for the education and empowerment of families. Dr. Palevsky strives to help parents access their knowledge and strengthen their confidences through their own experiences and intuition, thus supporting the idea parents are the primary care providers for their children."

Regardless, he was quoting an article written in the journal as was cited. I did ask if anyone had copy of that?

And, still curious as to how many of you have gotten H1N1 vaccines?

[Thomas_1]

I have.

[Dad Said Not To]

And, still curious as to how many of you have gotten H1N1 vaccines?

That has no bearing on the current discussion. In most, if not all, areas within the US, the H1N1 vaccine is currently available only to health care professionals and at-risk populations. Healthy adults who don't work in health care generally are not eligible to receive the H1N1 vaccine at this time.

[deltawave]

When one makes an argument based simply on belief, and backs it up with Google and Wikipedia snips, using only others' statements (also snipped and pasted) to make their point, one demonstrates very clearly their level of understanding of a topic. So although it's great to have these terrific Googling skills, and certainly admirable to have deep convictions, where is the synthesis and critical thinking coming directly from the OP's brain? Got an issue with vaccinations? Think something is a "must see" on the topic? Fine. State your case, on your own terms, using your own words and demonstrating your own depth of understanding of the topic, rather than snipping and quoting and Googling. :rolleyes:

[caballus]

That has no bearing on the current discussion. In most, if not all, areas within the US, the H1N1 vaccine is currently available only to health care professionals and at-risk populations. Healthy adults who don't work in health care generally are not eligible to receive the H1N1 vaccine at this time. Don't forget the inmates, too ... *evil grin* ... they're gettin' theirs.

So, I'll re-phrase the question then .. .how many of you PLAN on getting the vaccine?

[twofatponies]

That has no bearing on the current discussion. In most, if not all, areas within the US, the H1N1 vaccine is currently available only to health care professionals and at-risk populations. Healthy adults who don't work in health care generally are not eligible to receive the H1N1 vaccine at this time.

I don't get annual flu shots (of whatever variant of flu is running around that year) because I'm not in an "at risk" group and it's not usually fatal.

I have do keep current on any number of other vaccines, such as tetanus, measles, hepatitis etc. (I travel to Latin America regularly for work).

[MidlifeCrisis]

When one makes an argument based simply on belief, and backs it up with Google and Wikipedia snips, using only others' statements (also snipped and pasted) to make their point, one demonstrates very clearly their level of understanding of a topic. So although it's great to have these terrific Googling skills, and certainly admirable to have deep convictions, where is the synthesis and critical thinking coming directly from the OP's brain? Got an issue with vaccinations? Think something is a "must see" on the topic? Fine. State your case, on your own terms, using your own words and demonstrating your own depth of understanding of the topic, rather than snipping and quoting and Googling. :rolleyes:
Oh come on, Deltawave. She posted a link to a video that she found on the internet. It's on the internet, therefore it has to be true:lol:

I live in one of those communities in the US where it's considered forward thinking not to have your child vaccinated. Because it leads to autism... Because it's not needed... Because it's not natural... Well, herd immunity is starting to break down here. Whooping cough and measles are prevalent in the elementary schools. It's just a matter of time until a case of polio hits. Scary stuff.

[HealingHeart]

Hi Caballus, thanks for posting the information., quite interesting on many levels.

From what we have witness these past years, "Trust" can no longer be assumed, but gained. Money and/or situation that would create the ability to increase ones earnings is beating out over simple acts and values to respect and trust of one another.

The only person I can truly trust tho, is myself. This is a interesting watch. Thanks again.

[deltawave]

how many of you PLAN on getting the vaccine? Got mine, my kid will get his as soon as it's available. Not sure my husband needs it (not in the major "at risk" groups) but if it's available he'll get it too.

[Horsegal984]

I'm sory, but again, to use strangles as an example is rediculous. Many vets don't suggest vaccinating for it, as the efficacy rates are FAR under par, and it's not generally a fatal disease. I suspect many of the posters who you are arguing with are very reasonable about vaccinations, and most have learned to read enough to do their own research and decide which vaccines are needed FOR THEIR LIVING ENVIRONMENT. Most people now a days don't vaccinate for non life threatening diseases. Which is why when I call my Dr. and tell them I want to get vaccinated for rabies they tried to argue with me. I got vaccinated, because I work in a veterinary hospital and volunteer at shelters, therefore I am high risk. I have never been vaccinated for the seasonal flu because it's not a deadly disease, I can deal with being sick for a few days. I've also never had the flu, does that mean that I'm naturally so immune I can't get it? No, it means I follow good hygine and have been lucky.

Sorry, I too believe that you're doing nothing other than trying to spread antivaccine propaganda, which I personally resent, because you're misinforming and potentially putting lives at risk. Why? Because some of us HAVE to rely on herd immunity to protect us from serious diseases you're telling noone to vaccinate against. Whooping cough is making a comeback because it was deemed an 'unnecessary' vaccine by so many of the population. I'm not vaccinated because I'm too allergic to the vaccine. Now I'm at a higher risk because those who should be vaccinated are not and are contracting the disease.

You're worried about over vaccinating and boostering vaccines too soon? It's really a simple problem to avoid, have your titers checked before boosters. Anyone concerned about can tell their Dr they don't want to vaccinate until titers show it's necessary. If the Dr refuses, you can choose if you wnat a new Dr or not.

And as far as your rediculous question about H1N1 vaccine? Yeah, I'll be getting it this week, because I'm 28 weeks pregnant and therefore at a much higher risk for complications or death. So I'll take my chances there because in my case the benefit of the vaccine out weighs both the risks of the vaccine and the disease itself. And I didn't count on my Dr to say get it, I did my own research on it and the trial studies.

Katherine
Vet Tech

[caballus]

Interesting that Whooping cough came up. Grandson got his shot when an infant at scheduled time then proceeded to be VERY sick with ... whooping cough which was passed on to his brother who had been immunized and his Father who was immunized as a child. Mom did not get it (but had also been immunized as a child). So I'm very well aware that there are things that pop up.

I'm also interested to note that while comments have been made about vaccines and luck and good hygiene there hasn't been any comments about eating properly, living a healthy lifestyle and building up the immune system to help stay well.

Propaganda against vaccines vs. propaganda for vaccines. Either way I guess it can be considered 'propaganda'.

As for resenting the information I've posted and saying that *I*, personally, am putting lives at risk? Does not everyone have the responsibility to make his or her own decisions? I'm not putting anyone at risk. You own your own choices and decision. Not I. And if you resent what I posted well I'm sorry -- you might have to tell the person who made the video and put it up for public viewing that you resent that. Tell that person you don't want him or her to make any more videos like that and not to post information like that on public internet or in public reading materials. As for misinformation ... well, I guess there are usually two sides to most topics, aren't there. ;)

[Posting Trot]

I always get a flu shot, so if I can I'll get the H1N1 vaccine too. But I'm not at risk, since I'm over 50; when my son got sick a couple of weeks ago (probably with H1N1) neither I nor my husband ever felt sick. It's likely we have some limited immunity from a previous round (40 years ago) of a similar virus.

I've had, in my lifetime, the actual diseases measles, mumps, chickenpox, pertussis and rubella. I've had vaccines for (over the years) polio (live oral vaccine), tetanus, yellow fever, cholera (which is supposed to be a particularly useless vaccine, but was required for where I was traveling), and hepatitis B. I actually developed a reaction to the polio vaccine (which I vaguely remember as being like the worst case of the flu ever--I was 6 at the time).

My son has been vaccinated against everything that has been recommended. I believe in the herd.:winkgrin:

Oh, and just on the point about dengue not being heard of 50 years ago, that's untrue. Dengue was fairly common on the west coast of Africa in the mid to late 1800s; it's sometimes known as breakbone fever because the pain is so excruciating that it feels as though your skeleton is about to crack apart. It's rarely fatal, although it's well known that people who get it sometimes commit suicide because the pain is so unbearable.

I don't believe there's a vaccine against dengue.

[deltawave]

there hasn't been any comments about eating properly, living a healthy lifestyle and building up the immune system to help stay well Interesting? Seems like a non sequitur to me--the topic at hand is a youtube video of an anti-science crank peddling his pet theory on vaccinations. Are you trying to provoke someone into arguing with you that good health and nutrition aren't appropriate things to strive for? :confused:

[Pancakes]

Caballus, what do you have against going to the library and picking up a book on science like deltawave (and we've all) said before?

It's really hard to explain the reasoning behind vaccines, their efficacy, how and why they work, and such matter when the person you're explaining to can't understand or even accept the science behind it. If you think it's quackery and voodoo, then fine, but at least go and read up on physiology and immunology. Geez.

And how does your "better sanitation and healthy living to build up a good immune system" stack up against diseases like rabies or tetanus? Can't protect against those.



And NO, I'm not getting the H1N1 vaccine. I'm not at risk, I'm not exposed, and I haven't gotten the flu since I was 7. I've never gotten a flu vaccine and I am fine. The flu is fatal to those who are very young, very old, or with an underlying disease, so I'll take my risk. At worst, I'll be in bed for a week.

[chaltagor]

And if you resent what I posted well I'm sorry -- you might have to tell the person who made the video and put it up for public viewing that you resent that. Tell that person you don't want him or her to make any more videos like that and not to post information like that on public internet or in public reading materials.

This is so passive-agressive it's ridiculous. Shall I post a picture of a child run over by a bus and defend it by saying I didn't take the picture? Are you that stupid? Oh, I didn't invent the word stupid, why don't you tell the person who invented it that you don't like being called that, don't blame me!

[stoicfish]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3983706668483511310#

Gary's theory that AIDS is a constructed idea.
WOW. The science that is used in Star Trek is more complete and believable then how this guy strings together an argument.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull

[Perfect Pony]

I don't really know what to think or say about vaccines anymore. My mare had a severe reaction to her fall vaccines this year (fever and swelling in her hind legs well above the hocks that lasted over a week, and stocking up that lasted for almost 3 weeks). Since then, she has had reactions to her Adequan injections (x2) and now most likely has contracted pigeon fever...

All this in the last month since the vaccines.

Not saying vaccines are bad, but maybe we give them a little too freely without weighing the consequences? I'll certainly never give more than one at a time again, and now have to possibly stop all injections for a while. Not a small thing as the Adequan was required after her surgery.

[Equilibrium]

The scary thing about vaccines for me is how many horses have to get in the States. And since there is a good possibility of me and some horses moving back home next year, I worry about all that going into their system at one time. I often think, maybe I should see if I can get the vaccines over here and space them out, obviously with vet. But I don't know what is best. I certainly won't put them at risk by not getting them. Over here the get a flu and tet vaccine and that's it. Nobody has ever had a reaction yet. And while we may not think horse flu is dangerous, look what happened in Australia a couple of years ago.

As for myself, I had my first flu shot just after moving to Ireland 8 years ago. I didn't so much as get a sniffle for 6 years. It didn't matter who I was around. That was the first time ever I hadn't been sick with even a cold for that many years. Got a really nasty dose of flu 2 years ago which freaked me out so now I get my flu vaccine because I don't want to go through that again. And yes, I will be getting my swine flu vac probably this week. Maybe the vaccine didn't protect me but at the same time maybe it did. And also with a 32 horse operation and me and hubby doing all the work, I really can't afford (nor can he) to succumb to the flu - real flu. Let me tell you something I have to be really really sick to let Mr. Equilibrium loose in the feed room for a week straight and not even care!

Terri

[Thomas_1]

I'm also interested to note that while comments have been made about vaccines and luck and good hygiene there hasn't been any comments about eating properly, living a healthy lifestyle and building up the immune system to help stay well. We haven't YET talked about sanitation and the part that plays either. So what!?

Don't forget the inmates, too ... *evil grin* ... they're gettin' theirs.

So, I'll re-phrase the question then .. .how many of you PLAN on getting the vaccine?

Once again you're indulging in typical passive aggressive behaviour

Seemingly benign and unopinionated but merely with the purpose of finding fault and sniping and taking cheap pot shots.

As always you've taken the subject off topic and to your old hobby horse: vaccines and how they're most likely the scourge of modern society and only adopted because of persuasion of pharmaceutical giants.

Which posters have had the H1N1 or will have that vaccine has NOTHING to do with a horse care topic whatsoever!!!

But then those who read your sporadic postings about this matter know it's just your old hobby horse!

To bring this back to horses.

The last fruit loop I met in real life that had silly opinions on vaccines brought me a horse to train. She said she didn't believe in wormers and used a homeopathic wormer (instead of one that worked ;)).

I replied: "You can do what you want with your horse at your own place, but if you bring it here it will be wormed the day it arrives and then will be on exactly the same worming programme as all of mine"

In the event I never saw her again for about a year and then ultimately she came back with her horse and he remained with me for 4 months whilst I undertook remedial training and got his long list of bad habits sorted out.

In truth he was a sweet horse with one problem...... his owner!

When the horse was here and I was putting it together with it's owner, I'd occasionally hear her droning on about her theories re vaccination and homeopathy. I'd carry on training and she'd carry on droning.

Hey if she wants to pay me to listen to her then fair enough.

Anyway the horse went back home and about 5 years later when I was away from the farm there was a panic phone call from the owner. My Yard Manager took the call. The horse was down and in great distress and she was too upset and hysterical to know what to do. She thought colic. So Nicola called the vet ! then drove the 11 miles over and it was indeed a VERY bad situation.

Tetanus! Nicola held the horse when the vet put it down.

The owner was "too upset". Regrettably not "too upset" or "too responsible" to do the right thing in the first place!

Seemingly the horse was having homeopathic crap to protect it from tetanus!!!!!!

Propaganda against vaccines vs. propaganda for vaccines. Either way I guess it can be considered 'propaganda'.Yeh whatever! Interesting! (As in "don't be so ridiculous")

Does not everyone have the responsibility to make his or her own decisions? I'm not putting anyone at risk. You own your own choices and decision. Not I. And if you resent what I posted well I'm sorry -- you might have to tell the person who made the video and put it up for public viewing that you resent that. Tell that person you don't want him or her to make any more videos like that and not to post information like that on public internet or in public reading materials. Well we could tell him that if it were him that posted. However it was you so I'll tell you that it's a load of old clap trap posted by a fruit loop that prefers bunkum to science and takes an irresponsible and high risk view regarding public health.

As for misinformation ... well, I guess there are usually two sides to most topics, aren't there. ;) Yes indeed.

There's right and then on the other hand there's wrong.

Good or bad.

Responsible or negligent.

Good husbandry or failure to do right.

Science or bunkum.

[Guilherme]

This, from his own website (yes, I googled it. This was about all I could find on him. Do you have other references?):

"Dr. Palevsky is a board certified pediatrician who uses a holistic approach in his practice of pediatric medicine. He integrates the use of western medicine and alternative therapies to prevent and treat children's illnesses, and offers options to families who are interested in a broader medical approach to their children's health and wellness. Dr. Palevsky values the role(s) illness may play in children's lives and supports the use of safe, non-suppressive treatments to assist them in their healing. He is a strong advocate for the education and empowerment of families. Dr. Palevsky strives to help parents access their knowledge and strengthen their confidences through their own experiences and intuition, thus supporting the idea parents are the primary care providers for their children."

Regardless, he was quoting an article written in the journal as was cited. I did ask if anyone had copy of that?

And, still curious as to how many of you have gotten H1N1 vaccines?

In other words he's a man with a message. That is not necessarily bad, but when the message is grounded in an area of medicine known for its lack of scientific base, one has to question his analysis. Such folks have been know to "bend" the facts to meet their philosophy.

As to H1N1, my wife got hers and I'll get mine when available.

I also just followed the CDC guidelines and got a Shingles Vaccine (since I'm in the age group and had Chicken Pox as a child). So far I've not suffered any physical malady nor become an axe murderer.

G.

[deltawave]

It's shocking, just shocking to hear how virtually every respondent to this thread (the OP excepted) has a quite reasonable viewpoint on vaccines in general. Lots of wondering whether a horse with demonstrated problems ought to receive this or that vaccine, lots of evidence that people are t.h.i.n.k.i.n.g about their personal risk for particular diseases, and lots of weighing pros and cons WRT the very serious diseases (tetanus, rabies) vs. the ones where vaccination is widely held to be of less benefit (strangles). So I'd say the thread is a success in terms of generating a good discussion and demonstrating the large proportion of reasoned views on the topic, although sadly I expect that the OP is going to view the lack of "converts" to the non-science viewpoint as some sort of disappointment.

[caballus]

So I'd say the thread is a success in terms of generating a good discussion and demonstrating the large proportion of reasoned views on the topic, although sadly I expect that the OP is going to view the lack of "converts" to the non-science viewpoint as some sort of disappointment.As much as everyone seems to believe that I am disappointed, passive-aggressive, irate, stupid, moronic, etc ... I'm truly not getting upset or disappointed or anything else. I'm actually grinning and rather amused here with reactions - yes, its been a good discussion in the way that it has aroused passions and conversation. And I find it interesting how people react to things and to opinions that counter their own. My only objective was to post the video as I believe it may or *does* have some merit to the words spoken. Those words and thoughts, I feel, deserve to have some attention as 'the other side of the coin'. Do I agree with it all? I'm not sure. I have doubts on both sides of the coin. Do I trust the medical society and the government explicitly? No. Do I trust the 'other side' explicitly. No. To everything there is a season and with that comes balance. There's an old anonymous saying that says, "We must act in spite of fear ... not because of it." I think many act 'in fear' of the 'what if' without thinking of the actual chances that exist. Life is not absolute therefore neither is science. Anything that can be manipulated by man cannot be absolute and is always skewed by personal opinion and agenda.

Some of you have angrily called me names and told me I'm stupid because I posted a video with which you disagree. You've not thought to really hear what was said in the video even though there may be some validity to some of the words spoken - because the words spoken do not go along with your own beliefs, your own opinions or your own limited knowlege. One of you even accused me of putting lives at risk. I merely put out some information, some ideas that someone else has - an account of an event, actually. (No, I'm not passive-aggressive but perhaps bored and enjoying the 'banter' as it were?) I felt there was 'stuff' in that video that some readers may find interesting and will want to, perhaps, further investigate. I will be going back to listen again and nit-pick to research more when I have time - to gather as much information as I can. The video is posted so you can do the same if you so wish. Have a good day and enjoy!
(still grinning) ...

[deltawave]

So why is it a "must see" video rather than "hey, this is an interesting angle on the debate"?

[Moderator 1]

A reminder to keep things more closely focused on the horse-related aspects of this topic. It's understandable to draw from other areas of research, etc., when discussing the topic, but please keep in mind that this is a horse board, so let's not have the thread go off on an H1N1 tangent, for example.

Thanks!
Mod 1

[chaltagor]

I'm truly not getting upset or disappointed or anything else. I'm actually grinning and rather amused here with reactions - yes, its been a good discussion in the way that it has aroused passions and conversation.

Puppet master stage of trolling.

[deltawave]

Do let us know what your "research" discloses, Gwen, and the sources you use. Got some books to read? I could recommend a round dozen right off the top of my head (I am staring at the shelf where many of them sit, although of course my library is scant when compared to that of, say, a library full-of-actual textbooks-as-opposed-to-a-Google-search-window).