Has anybody tried feeding Xocai chocolates to their horses?

[Kareen]

I'm wondering if anybody has tried feeding these antioxidant chocolate cubes as treats. I'm told they will be available in Germany from next year on and was thinking if they could be of benefit to feed for insuline resistance as there seem to be more and more horses/ponies affected with it. Do horses like them? I know most of mine enjoy sharing a chocolate bar at a show but I have never tried them on dark chocolates as of yet.

[deltawave]

If antioxidants are what you're after, why not something along the lines of vitamin C, vitamin E, etc. that don't come loaded with a bunch of sugar?

[sublimequine]

If antioxidants are what you're after, why not something along the lines of vitamin C, vitamin E, etc. that don't come loaded with a bunch of sugar?

Agreed, and it'd probably be cheaper too. Pure Vitamin C is quite cheap for horses.

[Kareen]

Vit.C is widely available and used here both orally and injectible but it doesn't have any bloodsugar-regulating effects which seem to be associated with this acaiberry. The only acaiberry products I've found available here in Germany are sort of shady in contents (most of it would be packed rice-flour with some added coloring...) and come in coated pill galenics which are a pain to get into the horses plus
They also have no effect on fat-metabolism either. I've used Immunall with these patients before but people dislike the smell of it and cubes just seem a handy treat. Re. cost I think most products will appear very reasonable compared to the cost of pergolide and whatever else is out there for cushinoid horses *lol*

[Ghazzu]

Are you aware that chocolate contains theobromine, which will come up as a positive on a drug test?

[Kareen]

I am well aware of the contents of chocolate it but I am far from recommending to enter a severely hyperglycemic patient into a show with or without medication *lol*
Besides whether or not it will test positive is certainly something that human athletes and most responsible equestrians will investigate prior to feeding and/or eating in timely proximity to a competition so I am much less concerned about this than about the actual effects or lack thereof as an empiric supportive treatment to metabolic disorders :)
I think I'll try it on my own ones first for acceptance and tolerance. Not the first time they have successfully served as guinea pigs. When I first heard of immunall they have been the first line of investigation as well and I've been happy with the outcome.

[deltawave]

I think you're over-crediting the LARGELY unsupported hypotheses that these products actually do what they're advertised to do. :)

[Kareen]

What exactly do you mean by these products? The Xocai stuff or 'nutraceuticals' in general? I am not crediting any hypothesis but asking for experiences. I would also think if an entity like Health Canada approves of it there would be significantly more credibility to the content list than say some ominous 'order-online-from-your-pseudo-pharmacy-dot-com' pill? At least around here the administration is somewhat critical of what they will and will not allow on the market. A good friend has tried it on her aged TB and says she observed a positive orthopedic response in that he would trot more when he would before mostly walk and canter so she felt it had done him good.
I think my main question is whether or not they will actually voluntarily eat it. Because it doesn't seem to have a lot of sugar for a chocolate which is probably part of why it's advertised as being healthy.

[Ghazzu]

Fine, but you yourself referenced "sharing a chocolate bar at a show", so apparently you aren't concerned about drug testing.

Perhaps someone else reading your post is, and might not know that theobromine is a prohibited substance.
IIRC, it led to Bill Long losing a world championship in carriage driving--and in his case, it was from contaminated hay (having been shipped in a boxcar that had previously held cocoa beans.)

[deltawave]

an entity like Health Canada approves of it

What does "approves of it" mean?

around here the administration is somewhat critical of what they will and will not allow on the market

You mean that "the administration" where you are requires proof of efficacy, safety, and solid data supporting its use? With nutraceuticals? WHERE? As far as I'm aware (and I look, often) this kind data doesn't exist, so how can "the administration" be granted the status of being "somewhat critical" in what they will allow to be sold?

[Kareen]

I can only tell you about the process involved here as I have no idea how the USDA handles it but when you want to pass a product as saleable food here you have to declare precisely what the contents are and to make sure the declaration is truthful. So if a company claims it has x mg of this or that substance it has to be checked by a certified laboratory prior to approval and then controlled for variations.
With the pills I referred to in a previous post they don't rank as being 'food' but as being 'Nahrungsergänzungsmittel' ('supplements') which undergo a much less thorough screening and little to no analysis.
Food is something that is very restricted in this country even for equines or any other animal. If you want to market a new product you encounter the least expense and hazzle if you declare it as 'Ergänzungsfuttermittel' that's what many of the equine cough syrups, Devil's claw and whatnot 'fly under'.
You definitely don't want to have it approved as a medicinal product nor as a 'Futtermittel' (food) because that would involve a much more time- and $$-consuming process.
Therefor as a consumer over here you can be pretty sure that the declarations on a chocolade will be accurate and chemically factual especially if anything on the label indicates a certain benefit.
Sorry for going OT, I was mainly trying to find out if it has been tried and if horses like it or if anyone had any results to share of such personal trials. I should have been more clear.

[Kareen]

to Ghazzu: I used to share it after the show to reward the poor thing and myself for winning something. And yes that was long ago, I am pretty old and was showing when doping wasn't really that much of an issue or concern below international level because people were much less aware of all the dos and donts.
Besides I doubt the percentage of cocoa in half a snickers would lead to traceable amounts of theobromine in a 17h Warmblood at any point during or after consumption. Might be worth a trial though... Someone on horsegate recently suggested a voluntary common effort to establish a database everybody should contribute to by providing their own test series for whatever substance interested them.

[poltroon]

to Ghazzu: I used to share it after the show to reward the poor thing and myself for winning something. And yes that was long ago, I am pretty old and was showing when doping wasn't really that much of an issue or concern below international level because people were much less aware of all the dos and donts.
Besides I doubt the percentage of cocoa in half a snickers would lead to traceable amounts of theobromine in a 17h Warmblood at any point during or after consumption. Might be worth a trial though... Someone on horsegate recently suggested a voluntary common effort to establish a database everybody should contribute to by providing their own test series for whatever substance interested them.

In the US you can be tested until you leave the showgrounds. I personally wouldn't take the bet on the Snickers, even though I realize it has very little actual chocolate.

[Kareen]

I know about the drug-testing protocols. I've become very wary about doping tests ever since a PPE screening came out perfectly clean and after that the seller called me in a panic to say his caretaker had accidentally administered a full blown dose of Ventiplus to that very horse about 8h prior to the PPE
Dealing with organic systems has it's pitfalls and I have learned while science is all very good and helpful there is a lot going on that will not be caught by the grid of today's scientific understanding. I am therefor very open to new methods yet I like to get some first hand experience before I incorporate something new into my practice. Good thing to have a nice little breeding operation of my own that will happily volunteer.
For the last two years we have tried a new approach to our winter feeding regimen with the goal of reducing blood-sugar peaks and starch uptake along with a significantly increased distribution of copper. Now that I begin to see results I feel very comfortable to put myself behind it with our clients. I just hate having things around I don't know much about so rest assured I'm not going to suggest feeding chocolate to a patient who I know is showing. But thank you for thinking of it :)

[sublimequine]

I can only tell you about the process involved here as I have no idea how the USDA handles it but when you want to pass a product as saleable food here you have to declare precisely what the contents are and to make sure the declaration is truthful. So if a company claims it has x mg of this or that substance it has to be checked by a certified laboratory prior to approval and then controlled for variations.
With the pills I referred to in a previous post they don't rank as being 'food' but as being 'Nahrungsergänzungsmittel' ('supplements') which undergo a much less thorough screening and little to no analysis.
Food is something that is very restricted in this country even for equines or any other animal. If you want to market a new product you encounter the least expense and hazzle if you declare it as 'Ergänzungsfuttermittel' that's what many of the equine cough syrups, Devil's claw and whatnot 'fly under'.
You definitely don't want to have it approved as a medicinal product nor as a 'Futtermittel' (food) because that would involve a much more time- and $$-consuming process.
Therefor as a consumer over here you can be pretty sure that the declarations on a chocolade will be accurate and chemically factual especially if anything on the label indicates a certain benefit.
Sorry for going OT, I was mainly trying to find out if it has been tried and if horses like it or if anyone had any results to share of such personal trials. I should have been more clear.

I'm sorry I can't offer any helpful info, but I just wanted to say I found this totally interesting. It's really neat to see how other countries manage and regulate food/supps, and how it differs from the US. :)

[deltawave]

It's not all that different from country to country. THEORETICALLY if you are selling a product in the US which has a guaranteed analysis, you have to prove or at least declare and be READY to prove that your product contains 11mg of product X if you say it contains 11mg of product X. Whether there is an actual process to catch cheaters is another story. Whether product X actually DOES anything is also another matter entirely. :) But by golly, if you are selling 11mg per scoop of product X then yes, even in the USA you'd better have 11mg in your scoop. If it's a nutraceutical it doesn't have to DO anything, you just have to stick 11mg in there. :)

[sublimequine]

It's not all that different from country to country. THEORETICALLY if you are selling a product in the US which has a guaranteed analysis, you have to prove or at least declare and be READY to prove that your product contains 11mg of product X if you say it contains 11mg of product X. Whether there is an actual process to catch cheaters is another story. Whether product X actually DOES anything is also another matter entirely. :) But by golly, if you are selling 11mg per scoop of product X then yes, even in the USA you'd better have 11mg in your scoop. If it's a nutraceutical it doesn't have to DO anything, you just have to stick 11mg in there. :)

I still find it interesting, regardless. ;)

[egontoast]

I thought chocolate was toxic to horses, dogs and some other animals.

perhaps it would take a lot to cause a problem but it's not something I'd choose for a horse treat.

[foggybok]

I guess it would not be my choice for a metabolic or Cushings horse, the label says it's 50% CHO with half of that being sugar. I think you can get much better antioxidants (if that's what you want). And costwise? Looks like it's pretty expensive for the human dose, would be much more for a horse. Pergolide is cheap, I'm sticking with that :)

[Kareen]

Pergolide cheap? Not here in Europe. They charge an arm and a leg for it and not even all horses can handle it. You are also missing all the ones that do not in fact have hypophyseal adenoma?

Also could it be we are talking about two different products because the stuff they have started selling in Euope says it's 70% cocoa powder and 3g of sugars to a 12g piece. That doesn't sound like a lot of sugar for a chocolate?
Re. Theobromine being toxic for horses most drugs are toxic if the dose is high enough which is one reason it's different if a 70kg human eats 100g of chocolate vs. a 15kg WHW-Terrier let alone a 4kg European shorthair.

I guess it's just like any chocolate addict instinctively know chocolate makes happy and the thought of actually being able to eat some that is healthy on top of being chocolate is just too enticing altogether :)

[foggybok]

Pergolide cheap? Not here in Europe. They charge an arm and a leg for it and not even all horses can handle it. You are also missing all the ones that do not in fact have hypophyseal adenoma?

Also could it be we are talking about two different products because the stuff they have started selling in Euope says it's 70% cocoa powder and 3g of sugars to a 12g piece. That doesn't sound like a lot of sugar for a chocolate?
Re. Theobromine being toxic for horses most drugs are toxic if the dose is high enough which is one reason it's different if a 70kg human eats 100g of chocolate vs. a 15kg WHW-Terrier let alone a 4kg European shorthair.

I guess it's just like any chocolate addict instinctively know chocolate makes happy and the thought of actually being able to eat some that is healthy on top of being chocolate is just too enticing altogether :)

Sounds like the same stuff. 25% sugar, so a high percentage of sugar, even if it's low for chocolate.

As a chocolate lover myself, I actually like the higher cocoa solids chocolate! Even the 99%! Now that's healthy :) But I wouldn't be feeding it to my horse........

I have a bag of my favorite dark Ghirardelli (72%) here and it is 25% sugar as well, but I like it :)