I give up..........Any thoughts? updated post #77

[Fharoah]

Most of you know of my gelding was on stall rest last year for a collateral ligament injury. Tried reserpine, l tryptophan, magnesium oxide, Valerian root, no grain but then I end up using a tiny bit of beet pulp to blend powders but none worked. He was good sometimes and not so good others. I used ace and tons of it with minimal secess. So we had him virtually sound and in rehab ended up with ringbone. Steroid HA and IRAP legend and adequan helped but didn't produce soundness so I went to arthrodesis surgery. So now I have him on stall rest again, since the above had failed I have been using lots of ace. I sort of helps but he gets used to it. I asked my vets for fluphenazine but they don't use it. I am starting to feel like I am throwing money down the drain on ace and magnesium and like giving up because I just can't keep him calm, he is a good boy sometimes crazy others. His joint is partly fused, he did break two screws (nothing we can do about that). He can't hurt himself as badly now, what would you do. I am all for drugging keep them calm so they can heal whatever it takes but what can I do when nothing works?

[staceyk]

Can you find a vet to prescribe the fluphenazine ?

I don't know the type of environment you have him in -- is a layup facility an option? Could you find a facility with a safe paddock for very limited turnout? If he's not safe to handle, and drugs aren't working, the next step (after all this time) might be to find, or build, a small enclosure to give him just a little more room -- like a round pen, but not a round pen (something more solid/permanent structure).

I am coming to feel that stall rest is the worst thing that can happen to an owner and horse.

[sid]

Stall rest may be annoying and time consuming but IME..

Patience is a horse owner's best virtue. Meds cannot take the place of patience and speed up the healing process.

Takes time in many cases.

[murphyluv]

what's his long term prognosis- will he be sound enough to ride?? If he's not, then turn him out in a small pen and let him enjoy it. If he will be sound as long as he's quiet, find a vet who will prescribe what you want.

[Fharoah]

Horse has 12x20 total during the day (his 12x12 stall plus 8 feet into overhang) well all show you http://picasaweb.google.com/kayladrummond/Stall?authkey=Gv1sRgCIuJlPOvya7GTQ#540304319137482 2898 his inside door is closed at night. He is good but also explosive (trippple kicks and canters his area he manages to squeese in a stride then spin around), he will even trot tight circles in his 12x12 or 12x20my surgeon is very aware and says "of course he is wild that is Fharoah". that was really comforting when he first told me movement was very detrimental, I was told by surgeon not one step out of the stall for any circumstances he repeated this statement like three times. I think we are past the imparative stage but he He want me to leave him in there until recheck in February. Prognoses is very good for ridding soundness. I don't know that I can get acess to fluphenazine.

[staceyk]

My sympathy for Pharoah is tempered by the great layup digs you've managed to provide. My layup would think he'd landed in heaven! You should pat yourself on the back for everything you've done for him.

what are you feeding him -- did you mention?

[Fharoah]

He gets 1/3 cup of vitamin supplement, vitamin e selenium crumbles, 1/2 ground flax 1/3 1/2cup soaked beet pulp ace, I added the beet pulp only to blend the powder) about 7 flakes local grass hay.

[staceyk]

If you are hand walking I wonder if you could try xylazine -- it only works for a bout a 1/2 hour. I wonder if some kind of cocktail of drugs might work, do vets do that?

Aside from that, I'd almost be inclined to think he can't handle the little space he has. Does it sound crazy to pad the walls of a 12X12 stall, put him in it, and walk away? Maybe some reserpine?

A friend of mine swears by "switching stalls" -- sounds goofy but apparently it counts as a "change of scenery" and holds their interest. IT would at least give someone a chance to clean the stall...

[Fharoah]

wow I can't believe how small this reply space is.

I did close him in his 12x12 but he was not good, reserpine made him more hyper last year. Trying a second stall is possible. He has a very quiet stall bound horse next to him at all times who is always very quiet.

[asterix]

I'm sorry you and your horse are going through this. Extended stall rest is REALLY tough and I don't have any good advice (although I have been through it too!)...

but fluphenazine is some scary stuff and I am not surprised your vets don't use it.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=staceyk;4493688]If you are hand walking I wonder if you could try xylazine -- it only works for a bout a 1/2 hour. I wonder if some kind of cocktail of drugs might work, do vets do that?

I live in BC Canada and our vets are only liecenced to prescribe acepromazine, they can give reserpine and fluphenazine but I don't think they can give out xylazine or any stronger sedation. We do not get to handwalking this may be because my surgeon knows he can be a real handful as he demonstrated at the hospital (tripple kicking the brick walls and troting tiny circles ext.)

I do feel really badly for my boy he is the love of my life, the nicest horse I have ever had, when was sound I could ride him through our neibours airstrip in a rope halter bare back planes coming and going near by he was such a good boy. He was also my wonderful show hunter, just the best horse ever, now I worry about him. I am just hoping there is a light at the end of the tunnel and I can make it up to him with many years of soundness prognoses was considered good to excellent.

[murphyluv]

WOW. Good luck! You are probably just doing everything you can then. You've probably thought of this already, but do you have any toys???
A friend of mine had her horse on stall rest very recently, and I liked some of the ideas she had. She had a jolly ball, then cut up apples and put it in the water so the horse would drink and spend time "bobbing for apples", had a small hole haynet to keep the hay eating at a slow pace and give her something to do, AND had TWO gallon milk jugs hanging from the ceiling filled with cheerios or some other tasty, not too sugary treat. I think she poked a very small hole in the bottom. The horse was banging on it for hours getting the treats out. Just a thought, but good luck with everything. Hang in there!
Did any of the calming supplements you tried last year work in the slightest??

[Fharoah]

Toys are a very good seggestion!

the magnesium maybe helps(iffy) I felt the L Tryptophan and valarian and reserpine made him hyper? He certainly wasn't calm on them. He loves apples and carrots! I actually go check my horses at 11pm make sure my boy is ok give hay and he is waiting for his carrots.

[Fharoah]

If you are hand walking I wonder if you could try xylazine -- it only works for a bout a 1/2 hour. I wonder if some kind of cocktail of drugs might work, do vets do that?

Aside from that, I'd almost be inclined to think he can't handle the little space he has. Does it sound crazy to pad the walls of a 12X12 stall, put him in it, and walk away? Maybe some reserpine?

A friend of mine swears by "switching stalls" -- sounds goofy but apparently it counts as a "change of scenery" and holds their interest. IT would at least give someone a chance to clean the stall...

A padded stall sounds good to me. I remember trying to pad the side of his door guess we didn't put it up well enough because he would just paw it and paw it and chew it until it would fall down, this was last year. Might try to string up some rubber mats.

[ljc]

There's magnesium and there's magnesium. I say this only because I'm on year three of my horse's rehab and I've been in your shoes. My horse wants to join the Spanish Riding School and demonstrates via his most athletic leaps & spins in the air. But unlike you, I was able to end the stall rest after a few months, bring him home to turn out in the field, and then continue (ha!) with rehab. He keeps reinjuring himself so we are almost back to square one.

Anyway, my point is that I tried every kind of calming product out there - fluphenazine (loved it, used it during stall rest & handwalking); ace (loved it, used it for nearly 18 months walking under saddle so that I would live to get on another day) and every nonprescription calming thing out there.

Amazingly, quiessence did the trick. It was as if my horse had been tranquilized. I had tried so many other products that I wasn't even thinking of the magnesium when I ordered it; i tried it because he was getting chubby and cresty.

The difference was night and day. I was able to stop using ace. Unfortunately, I had to stop quiessence because it's not recommended for EPSM horses (it has chromium in it) but for whatever reason, now another magnesium product (that I had used before with no success) works to keep him calm.

I feel your pain. I really do.

[Fharoah]

Sorry about your horse. My horse has been intermittently off since March 2007 so just about going to hit the three year mark. Between diagnostics, small padoc rest, diagnostics full turout, diagnostics small paddoc rest, joint injections, MRI more joint injections, more rest and tranq and legend and adequan, more rest with walking, more radiographs IRAP, rehab with small paddoc rest, turnout, more IRAP and radiogaphs, Aug 09 more exams more radiographs surery more radiogaphs, November 09 radiographs he has broken two screws:eek:. But the bone will grow over them. I can count my horse has had 8 full sets of pastern radiographs (32 digital pitcures of his pastern+ shoulder elbow and splint bone radiogaphs and 1 MRI) Maybe I will try that magnesium product.

best wishes with your horse for making a full recovery!!!!!!!!!!

[judybigredpony]

May I be so bold n rude to ask why you have spent such an extrodinary amount of money on a horse w/ continued orthopedic issues?? I know you love him, but is he a high caliber competition horse? or just the love of your life?

He seems to have spent more time in a rehab state than enjoyed under tack.

This is not a judgement just curious.

[mvp]

I have followed your saga with interest.

You have done more to put Fharoah back together than most would have done. If he were mine as he stands to day, I'd "take the gloves off" with everyone-- him and your vets. You have invested way too much time, money and effort not to have the horse stay quiet enough to let him finish the healing job you started with the arthrodesis surgery.

I'd personally move Heaven and Earth to find some fluphenazine for my horse if I wanted to try it. I'd, of course start with my ooriginal vets, I might ask if we all didn't have very much to lose at this point. If the horse screws up his healing, then what was the damned point? So long as you understand the risks, why is the vet averse?


If I got nowhere, I honestly might quietly find another vet who would prescribe it. I'd be up front with that vet about why I was asking, and the refusal of the surgeon's practice to go there. But I'd let the chips fall where they would with the original vet. If they fire you as a client, so be it. But I think you can say "Look, I was backed into a corner as you well know and I wanted to try this. Nothing personal, but I think you know I felt comfortable taking a risk to get my horse quiet that you didn't."

Of course we don't have your vet's side of the story. If your vet thinks some of this is a "manners problem" that you created and should learn to manage, that may explain their refusal to give you a pharmaceutical help. I have no idea either, but I assume Fharoah is an official handful since he behaved unwisely even at the vet clinic. But a horse who can not lose is mind at an airport is mentally capable of deciding to be quiet when he needs to be. Perhaps you can think really creatively about how you handle him day to day? There may be a part of a management solution in there. God knows race track grooms have all kinds of tricks up their sleeves to help out good-running but unsafe whack-jobs there.

Finally, have you and your vets thought about adding Osteon (made by Platinum Performance) to Fharoah's ration? It's a bioavailable form of silicon that's helpful for healing fractures.

[deltawave]

Does he have a buddy, maybe a pony or a goat?

[Laurierace]

I personally would give him more ace until you find a dose that gets the job done

[echodecker]

Can you swim him somewhere? My horse is on her third month of stall rest due to a DDFT and we started swimming her about a month ago. What a difference!!! She is totally calm now, relaxed, soft eyed in the stall. Has stopped screaming at everyone who walks by and trashing her stall with constant pacing.

If you can find a place (many racing stables have them) with a pool, see if your vet will sign off on that. It's nonconcussive and really wears them out. Plus, it makes them feel like they are doing something. My mare jumps in the trailer 3 times a week and really seems pleased with herself afterwards.

Erin

[Fharoah]

May I be so bold n rude to ask why you have spent such an extrodinary amount of money on a horse w/ continued orthopedic issues?? I know you love him, but is he a high caliber competition horse? or just the love of your life?

He seems to have spent more time in a rehab state than enjoyed under tack.

This is not a judgement just curious.

I have followed by vets recommendations regarding rest and rehabillitation. My surgeon believes Fharoahs pastern is his only sourse of lameness and stabilizing his pastern gives him a good chance at soundness. He is only seven and I don't want him to be in pain. He is not an inexpensive horse and his medical bills have been equally costly, I love him and he deserves to be sound I really want him sound, his quality of life and comfort is very. important to me. He is a fancy horse and he is my dream horse, had hoped he would be my 3.6 foot hunter, ammy EQ horse, however now I would just love to have him ridding sound, he likes being ridden, he is a very special horse that I really love and adore. My surgeon says if secessful he can jump and show again, I just hope to get him sound.

I really appreciate everybodies support and seggestions!

[Fharoah]

Fharoah is a well mannered horse, who simply likes to be exuberant. My surgeon does not use reserpine or fluphenazine ever due to the possible side effects, he has never used either, he only likes to drug when absolutely nessecery he says "he's Fharoah, I don't dought he trots and canters his stall" (can canter 12x20 can still trot 12x12). My regular vet gave me reserpine but is nervous of fluphenazine as he has only heard worse case senario. My surgeon only uses ace when absolutely nessecery, but my regular vet gives it to me freely. My surgeon knows my horse well, he just says to keep him as calm as possible.I think he indicated movement wasn't as detrimental as it was in the first three months but still has him on total stall rest.

[flyracing]

I have no experience with this topic, but if immobility is so important for the healing process of this injury, would it make sense to put that leg in an aluminum brace?

I'm sorry your having so many issue with your baby. I feel your pain on a very personal level. Pacifec and I sat out 2 1/2 season (suspensory, joint infection, systemic infection, vasculitis, lost all of his hair... in that order) about 12,000 dollars later we competed for half a season (and won a USDF award :)) BUT he had edema in his leg this morning when I went to put his "warm-up wraps" that help with the ring bone and there was major edema in the mid cannon area of the tendons. The vet came out and confirmed by ultrasound that he has a lesion on his deep digital flexor and is to go back to stall rest. I'm not even sure if it's worth going the expensive route again (or if I can even do that) or if he's just going to be sweat wrapped and iced... at least my horse has learned to love his stall rest, which he very much disliked for the first 14 or so months. Apparently his love for food took over and he is happy eating, sleeping, and pooping :sadsmile: He is fed 4 times a day in doubled layered small hole haynets always in a new arrangement (over a tub, in the rack feeder, hanging from the ceiling in the middle of the stall, ect.) And I was getting him "uncle jimmy's hangin balls" or pony pops 3-4 times a week which thoroughly entertained him for up to 15 hours at a time (only when I really got it hung up right, otherwise more like 1 hour :lol:)

[flyracing]

PS My horse swam for 3 months early on in his 1st set of rehab and he got really fit (and looked like a race horse), but he loved it! He did become sound from the swimming and had a beautiful ultrasound picture, but the fit beast reared up on the hot walker (he wasn't supposed to be brought in last...) and we had to completely start over! Of course that was when we were only 5 months into the saga and on a great time schedule. Didn't do the swimming again because of the expense (1200 monthly for board, swim, wrapping, ect since I had to take him out of state for the facilities).

[Fharoah]

I would love to give him swimming lessons I don't know of any in the area. My surgeon doesn't even want him hand walked at this time though.

[PaintedMonkey]

wow, what an ordeal! you definitely have my praise for trying to make everything workout for your horse!

have you thought about cutting out the flax? i started adding ground flax to my usually mellow horses meal last summer and it made him absolutely lose his mind... i asked around after and apparently it's not totally uncommon for flax to make them nutty. not saying this would completely solve your problem, but it might help a little bit :)

good luck!

[Fharoah]

Well I have actually just run out of flax so I will see how he does without it. It is a year long process to hopefully achieve soundness and I admit the waiting and uncertainty is really hard. I really appreciate all of COTHers support!

[ZiggyStardust]

Hi Fharoah, I have followed your trials and tribulations through this board over the last couple of years, you and your boy have been through the ringer. I have been going through a more minor version over the last couple of years with my guy. Strangely, he has been priviledged enough to have similar digs to your horse, nice open 12x12 with hotwire strung across his run so he only had access to his porch. He is also a chestnut very similar to your guy's color, it was so eerie seeing your video!

Unfortunately I can't help out with your sedative dilemma, as we never had to go down that road, but one thing that helped my guy was using the Amazin' Graze toy, filled with timothy cubes. It's like the Kong toy made for dogs. It kept his attention and gave him something rewarding to do with his time. You can find them online, well worth it. For most of his stall rest he was only getting timothy hay (plus cubes in his toy) and a handful of sunflower seeds to give him a little fat along with his supplements. Cutting down his calorie consumption really helped keep him be calmer.

We are about to start IRAP for his lingering ailment, and hoping this will take care of his discomfort so that he can finally go under saddle. Just wanted to say that I can relate a bit and am sending good vibes your way from south of the border in Washington, hope you are able to see all this work finally pay off soon.

[Grataan]

I would try like hell to get fluphenazine if it comes down to "it" as a last-ditch thing. HOWEVER the fluphen can have VERY BAD side effects so really only you and your veterinarian can make that decision.

It's kind of like fluphenazine is the bomb of my arsenal-when all else fails it can come in handy but why use a bomb when a beanbag gun will do? (I hope that made sense.) I have it in my 'tool box' but I don't pull it out except in extreme cases. And I should note I haven't used it at all since I switched over to mostly bovine practice (we have the occasional client in our practice use it but they've been primary clients of one associate or another)

I can also see where your surgeon is coming from though. There are certain things I WON'T EVER DO/USE on a patient and I have my reasons why-I'm sure your surgeon has his/her

I guess you have to decide if he needs the drug to survive (like you've run out of options before euthanasia)-or if it's just to avoid further surgery (like you want to try everything possible before surgery)

[Grataan]

I also wanted to add that you have made some statements that lead me to believe there is a breakdown in the veterinarian-client communication process

I think he indicated

etc.

YOU NEED TO CALL HIM/HER and clarify this. Ask him point blank "Dr Surgeon, are you telling me that movement at this time is not as detrimental as during the first phase of the process?" etc. Perhaps include something like "I understand that ideally my horse would do XYZ but are you telling me that even though he does ABC instead of XYZ that at this time ABC behavior is not as concerning as in the first phase of healing?" etc.

I think I read you are in Canada? Is it possible that you and your surgeon do not speak the same language? If so, you may benefit from a translator so that you aren't trying to 'work around' one or the other of your non-native languages-ie if you normally speak Spanish and your surgeon normally speaks German but you understand German and your surgeon understands Spanish you two might be able to sort of get the point across but may in fact be missing some key elements of the conversation.

Wow I really need to get to bed. Wish I could sleep-I can't even understand what I just wrote

[TheOrangeOne]

We're kind of sisters in this thing, the whole long drawn out pastern lameness issues ordeal. I chose not to have surgical fusion done because my vet felt it wasn't likely to bring him back to any level of working soundness, though Fharoah I am sure is a different case. When you say the reserpine did not work, how much were you using? The thing with horses who have ligament injuries and surgeries is that they really really need to rest to allow those tissues to heal. I know you have said that he's still lame, and he has broken two screws in his pastern, so I would start raising hell to make sure that all of your work isn't going to be for nothing. Thankfully when my horse had surgery previously, he was well behaved in the stall, but he did require a good amount of sedation for handwalking. The thing is, though, ace and rompun are not long enough acting tranquilizers that they will keep him quiet on a regular enough basis to allow those tissues to grow back. That's the point of the surgery, to get the horse's own body to fuse that joint, and he won't have an opportunity to do that if he keeps running on the leg and hurting himself over and over again. I really do not understand why the surgeon is allowing his work to be ruined except that perhaps he thinks that there is no hope anyways? I would call the vet school in your area and ask for a consultation with their surgeon, explain your situation, and see what they have. I didn't have any side effects with the fluphenazine, but didn't find it too effective. I'd ask the surgeon at the vet school or whomever you consult with, if there are any human medications that would be effective for use in the horse. It's a long shot, but I know valium can be used in dogs, I wonder if it would work on a horse. I'd be considering all of these avenues. If there is no way to keep him quiet in the stall and he really is fussing all day as opposed to just at certain times, I'd consider turning him out if you think the total movement would be less. Of course talk to your vet about this, and keep in mind that the healing won't be as quick as if he were being quiet on stall rest, but I think it's far preferable to you having to worry about him giving himself an ulcer or pawing with that leg and hitting the door and breaking more in that joint.

[FineAlready]

I actually joined COTH specifically to respond to your post, as I understand how frustrating this can be. Regarding Fluphenazine, please, please, please be careful if you do decide to use it (assuming you can find a vet to prescribe it). It made my stall bound horse more wound up, and, frankly, human aggressive. It is a disturbing and scary thing when your "buddy" suddently turns on you out of nowhere...and continues to do so for a month. Remember, Fluphenazine is a long-acting, injectable drug. It's potency actually increases as time goes on, and it lasts for about 30 days. 30 days is a long time.

Here are a few things that have helped me:

1. Make sure the horse is in a comfortable environment. It might seem comfortable to you, but sometimes certain barns, or certain stalls within a barn just make certain horses more wound up. Moving my horse to a new barn where there was less chaos helped a lot. Are there noises, kids running around, etc. that might be setting him off?

2. Make sure whoever is handling him (including grooming, etc.) is competent to do so. Change barns if that is not the case. Sometimes, you also have to admit that you might not be the person most competent to handle your horse at the moment. I am an experienced horse person, but I was so worried about my horse's well being and concerned that correcting him would lead to movements that would exacerbate his injury that I unwittingly allowed him to walk all over me during hand walks. Moving him to a place where 90% of his hand walks are handled by professional staff helped a lot, and, ultimately, led to less "episodes" during hand walks. Sometimes, an impartial person can just "get the job done" better than you can at the moment.

3. Very little to no grain, and lots of hay (lower quality hay is fine - you just want his mind to be occupied).

4. The ability to see and touch noses with other horses is pretty important, in my experience. All the better if the other horses are older, mellow types.

5. When he is freaking out, don't stand by his stall. Don't let anyone stand by his stall. Walk away. There is nothing you can do. It's not as though you are going to go in there with him while he is losing it. Throw him some hay and walk away.

6. Understand that he is unlikely to become "calm" during this process. Accept that you are doing all you can to help him, and allow yourself to accept the fact that he might get hurt during his antics. It won't be your fault if that happens. Horses are just that way sometimes. Again, you are doing the best you can for your horse. That is all anyone, even the horse, can ask for.

7. If you need Ace for some specific reason (i.e., anticipated hectic day in the barn, hand walking while there is a bunch of stuff going on around you, etc.), go ahead and use it. Try not to use it every day if you can help it. I found that that just led to a totally sedated horse, followed by a nuttier than before horse.

8. Although it seems counterintuitive, I'd check with the vet to see if you can hand walk him. My horse looks forward to his walks now and behaves quite well. He's four and not a quiet horse. It can be done, and it can help make them quieter if you get them out and about for a bit. Walk in an enclosed area and use a chain (obviously). If you are not comfortable walking him, ask a trainer to do it.

I know how this feels. Really, I do. It's a helpless feeling watching your horse possibly self destruct. I think most horses eventually "settle in" after some time. I found my horse improved the most when we stopped trying to give him things to settle him down. He gets no drugs now. I never would have thought it possible, but he's the quietest he's been since starting stall rest (4 months ago).

Good luck and hang in there!

[Fharoah]

I also wanted to add that you have made some statements that lead me to believe there is a breakdown in the veterinarian-client communication process



etc.

YOU NEED TO CALL HIM/HER and clarify this. Ask him point blank "Dr Surgeon, are you telling me that movement at this time is not as detrimental as during the first phase of the process?" etc. Perhaps include something like "I understand that ideally my horse would do XYZ but are you telling me that even though he does ABC instead of XYZ that at this time ABC behavior is not as concerning as in the first phase of healing?" etc.

I think I read you are in Canada? Is it possible that you and your surgeon do not speak the same language? If so, you may benefit from a translator so that you aren't trying to 'work around' one or the other of your non-native languages-ie if you normally speak Spanish and your surgeon normally speaks German but you understand German and your surgeon understands Spanish you two might be able to sort of get the point across but may in fact be missing some key elements of the conversation.

Wow I really need to get to bed. Wish I could sleep-I can't even understand what I just wrote

(this small screen is so enoying for replies)

My surgeon and I both speak good English I live in BC. The first three months my surgeon said "movement is very detrimental" he recommended a stall bound buddy which we did. He is good some of the time just likes to play. I told him week one home he would at times canter the his 12x20. He knows because at hospital he would have explosions "tripple kicking the walls troting circles" was mentioned on the discharge report.

During recheck a week ago (surgeon came to my barn) he does canter back and forth and I worry about him hurting himself he replied "of course he does he's Fharaoh, he won't hurt himself as much now". He prescribed three more months stall rest without hand walking.

[Fharoah]

[ When you say the reserpine did not work, how much were you using? The thing with horses who have ligament injuries and surgeries is that they really really need to rest to allow those tissues to heal.

Last year we tried 1cc, nothing he was rearing within four hours, two weeks later tried 2.5cc IM didn't work, we tried everyother day orally up to 3cc nada ended up using two bottles just made him hyper.

I know you have said that he's still lame, and he has broken two screws in his pastern, so I would start raising hell to make sure that all of your work isn't going to be for nothing. Thankfully when my horse had surgery previously, he was well behaved in the stall, but he did require a good amount of sedation for handwalking. The thing is, though, ace and rompun are not long enough acting tranquilizers that they will keep him quiet on a regular enough basis to allow those tissues to grow back.

This has been my problem. I really want this surgury to work, but all I care about is giving my boy his life back and taking away his pain. Since the start of his lameness he has always appeared lame at the walk my surgeon stated in his evaluation report that my horse shows lameness worse at the walk than the trot. I wanted him on fluphenazine as soon as he got home but can totally understand why my vets don't avocate useing it. It puts me in a tough spot because the outcome of this surgery is so defineing of his future. My surgeon said he could jump, show do his previous level if secessful. I think the collateral ligmament is the main problem and could have some mineralization. Now the collateral ligaments have been cut and he will no longer need them once the joint is fused.

I didn't have any side effects with the fluphenazine, but didn't find it too effective. I'd ask the surgeon at the vet school or whomever you consult with, if there are any human medications that would be effective for use in the horse.

I don't actually find he is too stressed in his area, pretty happy most of the time, and with tons and tons of repeated ace I can keep him somewhat quiet, I think he metabolizes the ace really quickly and gets used to it why a long term sedative is the best thing for Fharoah is hopes of taking the edge off I think that is all he needs. it is just that he likes to explode, play ext. I wish there was another long term sedative that would help.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=TheOrangeOne;4496459]We're kind I know you have said that he's still lame, and he has broken two screws in his pastern, so I would start raising hell to make sure that all of your work isn't going to be for nothing.

Breaking the screws is common and apparently the bone grows over the broken screws. My surgeon expects him to still be lame at the walk at three months, we will know more at the six month mark.


I really do not understand why the surgeon is allowing his work to be ruined except that perhaps he thinks that there is no hope anyways? I would call the vet school in your area and ask for a consultation with their surgeon, explain your situation, and see what they have. I didn't have any side effects with the fluphenazine, but didn't find it too effective.

Fluphenazine may not work either but it is the only thing I haven't tried, realistically I am just hoping things will work out but am feeling rather stressed. I am really hoping this surgery will work for my beloved boy!

[Fharoah]

I guess you have to decide if he needs the drug to survive (like you've run out of options before euthanasia)-or if it's just to avoid further surgery (like you want to try everything possible before surgery)[/QUOTE]

I am hoping the surgery will to get him at least pasture sound so I never have to consider that. Quality of life and comfort is very important to me!

[HealingHeart]

I am suspecting drug interactions. I would talk to your vet about weaning him off all drugs. Including the magnesium.

90% of the battle with injured horses is their mental state. If you can't win this mental state battle, then he will start to lose his odds of making a full recovery. If this progresses more, I hate to say it, you could lose him completely unless you get him mentally cooled out and psyched down because he could progress into different complications.

I believe and agree rodawn is correct and it is something to discuss with your vet and consider. To much drugs can counter the natural ability to heal or slow the healing down.

[Fharoah]

I believe and agree rodawn is correct and it is something to discuss with your vet and consider. To much drugs can counter the natural ability to heal or slow the healing down.

I have considered this. The only meds Fharoah is getting is ace and magnesium oxide. I tried reserpine and Valerian root last year over a year, he went through a whole two years of rest and rehabilitation, he was back on 24/7 turnout and walk trot cantering during rehab but I never felt he was truly sound. My surgeon aware of this said in his report "Fharoah is intermittently 1/5 keep rehabbing even if he is alittle bit lame, it is very important for him to gain strength at this time..even if you feel he has significantly deteriorated please do not stop rehab without discussing with me first" I never felt he was truly sound but he never could say he had significantly deteriorated so I took him back and he was the same intermittent 1/5 at the trot and very short stridded at the walk, when he saw his radiographs with joint narrowing and(June 2009) surgeon said he was in chronic pain recommended IRAP to lessen his pain (didn't think he would come sound) he didn't improve at all by August he was right back to 2/5 at trot and lame at the walk and positive to distal flexions it was fuse or retire (lame) my surgeon felt he had a good chance of becoming 100% sound with fusion. I have put him through allot and he is not himself at all and I really worry about him, the stall rest has been hard on him, he does not have any trouble with weight he is a bit fat has gained weight on stall rest, but overall I am worried about him. I have tried taking him off the ace but he seems calmer on it than off it. I am now considering taking him off all meds and just treating him for ulcers.

[Fharoah]

I really appreciate everyones kindness and caring about Fharoah. He truly is my best friend in the world and what I am trying to acomplish is pain free, he really deserves that!!!! He is a really good horse, lovely natured even now he is the kindness horse I have ever had the plessure of owning in my 27 years of with horses. I would do anything to help him, and yet getting there is really hard hopefully by February he will be on small paddoc rest and sound at the walk and much happier. He is by nature not calm is a small paddoc he is quite the show off very resorseful with little space. He does have some extra bone at the front of his pastern which my surgeon says is caused by excess movement, my surgeon did not suggest that would effect the prognoses he didn't say much, he is going to send me a summary which may give more detail but hassn't yet. I can totally understand and respect why fluphenazine is unsafe the side effects can be very scarry,but I was willing to try it because I thought the adverse effects were pretty rare. I think many horses need sedative to comply with stall rest and I think Fharoah is no exception, I guess I will just try and hope that he gets better.


Thankyou for being supportive! Any further thoughts are valued!

[Fharoah]

I am very hesitant not to use ace as he seems to be wired every time I take him off of it.

Today I gave 5ml of acepromazine at 8AM and again at 2PM I did also give magnesium. He was a good boy! Calm I could groom him, eating. He has good days and his very explosive days wich I tend to panick. So I will stick with that and hope he stays good. I am considering treating for ulcers, I really don't know if he has them my vets don't think I should be concerned but he was very unhappy at the hospital his buddy left after five days and he was the there all alone it was sad, he has a buddy next to him at all times at home but is still on forced rest. I do think long term sedatives to take the edge off are most ideal for extended stall rest when the horse doesn't comply, just doesn't appear to be an option for Fharoah.

Today he was a happier horse!

[Addison]

I konw that this particular medication is a bit controversail for use in horses and geldings in particular but you may want to try depo-provera. I would not have believed how effective it can be if i had not seen the trannsformation of a tb gelding in our barn within 24 hours of its administration. Depo is not a sedative/tranquilizer but the horse in our barn went from being totally grouchy, stomping his feet while being groomed and kicking at the ground while his blanket was being put on....

Your horse is being rowdy and hard to handle (and who could blame him) so I thought depo might be something that could help his mind to chill out a bit. Maybe some depo in combination with ace would be helpful. The tb in our barn needs it about every three weeks. Some horses need it more and some need it less.

I would definitely start him on ulcer gard unless he has ulcers and than you would want to use the gastro gard protocol. Stall rest can cause so many problems and ulcers is just one of them. When my horse has to stay in for even just a few days she gets it.

[enjoytheride]

I really hate to say it, but have you considered other options with your vet? Will he ever be pasture sound?

[Fharoah]

I really hate to say it, but have you considered other options with your vet? Will he ever be pasture sound?

The prognoses is very good for ridding soundness acording to my surgeon/lameness specialist. I could not have justified putting him through that if it wasn't. My surgeon examined Fharoah a week ago, he was happy, radiographs were showing partial fusion, two screws had broken slows things down a bit but acording to my surgeon the bone will grow over those screws and won't bug him. Anybody curious I will email you his rads? I was told approx. a year, so I have to wait until the joint is fully fused before I can know if he will be ridding sound, pasture sound. We are three months, nine months to go, less if I am lucky, possibly, I think by the six months mark he may get to move to small paddoc rest (he is not calm on paddoc rest he likes to run and play show off his talent) again making a long term sedative like fluphenazine ideal.

[TheOrangeOne]

Would keeping him on bute or equioxx/previcox slow down the fusion? I would bet a good amount of money that his attitude would get better if he were not in pain from the fusing joint.

[Fharoah]

Would keeping him on bute or equioxx/previcox slow down the fusion? I would bet a good amount of money that his attitude would get better if he were not in pain from the fusing joint.

After surgery he got 2grams of bute twice daily for two days, then 1.5 grams for a few days, then 1 gram twice daily for a few days, back up to 1.5 grams twice daily for about three weeks, ten days at 1 gram twice daily, then 3/4 gram twice daily until 3 months, now 1/2 gram twice daily until December 6, 1/2 gram daily until January 6th which is five month as prescribed by my surgeon. He seems to tolerate the bute well, I was thinking I would treat him with gastroguard for all January just in case and of course if any changes in appetite manure weight I will stop the bute, he shows no clinical signs of ulcers,other than some mild changes which may or may not be related.

[Addison]

Why wait until January to treat him with gastro/ulcergard?

[Roxx]

I really feel for you :(. My mare is on 6 months stall rest with only walking under saddle. I moved her to a new barn in October and up until then she had only been given ace when we were walking her under saddle. When we moved she was understandably a little more excited in her new environment and she wasn't even safe to hand walk (up until that point we could hand walk her without any ace), so I made the decision to give her fluphenazine. She didn't have any adverse reactions and was back to her regular self. It's been more than 30 days and unless she does something really stupid in her stall then I hope to not have to give her any more but if it means she'll stay quiet then I'll do it again. I live in Ontario and my vet didn't bat an eyelash when I asked for a longer lasting tranq. I would think that you could find someone out there to prescribe it if you needed it. I do think that if my mare had as much room as your gelding does that she would definitely be wilder. As far as distractions for my mare she has a ball that she rolls around to get some crunch out of and lots, and lots of hay.

[Fharoah]

Why wait until January to treat him with gastro/ulcergard?

His surgeon, regular vet and another vet don't think he has ulcers, I am paranoid though. When he was at hospital I was worried about him and requested scoping and gastroguard his reply was that my horse was acting different because he was developeing a casting sore, I am paranoid of ulcers and wanted him scoped. Since then I have asked my regular vet and even the equine vet/dentist when he was up powerfloating my horses teeth,none think Fharoah has ulcers, however I thought once I stopped bute I would start him on daily gastroguard for a month. If he showed any clinical signs he would be off of bute and on gastroguard that day, my horse is a horse that eats every scrap of hay, treats, I do see some changes in his personallity which scare me of ulcers but I really don't know, I thought I may wait until he is not on bute and then treat with gastroguard daily for probablly a month, then he should be on small paddoc rest and ulcers should have a good chance at healing? That said I think he is really used to the ace so maybe I should just put him on daily ulcergard and that may help keep him calm?

[Dressage Art]

Im really sorry to read about what you been thru with your boy. Im 2 months in to the long term recovery and my mare is in the 10x20 stall/paddock.

I think layoff horses do better in square paddocks or stalls, so they cant run and spin.

What helped my mare is to limit her food and she is now on 3 flakes per day only and she is 16.3 hands and still looks like a house.

We cant walk her outside of the barn = she turns in to the kite, so we walk her inside of the barn isle: back and fourth. It sux, but thats the only way to keep her from not rearing up and bronco-ing.

However, if there are 2 people leading her from 2 sides and she is in the bridle, she does much better,.. but you do need 2 people for that.

Good luck
You did already a huge, huge job with him! He is very lucky to have you.

[Dazednconfused]

Ok honestly...this may not be popular and I mean this with the best of intentions (and also recognizing that much of it must be out of how much you care for your boy)...

I read this forum a lot and you constantly mention your horse and his pastern. I guess as someone who has, in my career in horses, known a lot of horses on stall rest (yes, even quite longterm and significant stuff), I think you're paranoid, worrying too much, etc. Which I understand - he's important to you, this no doubt cost a significant amount of $$$, and you just want your horse to be okay! Again, totally understandable. But horses get injured. It happens, it sucks, but it's part of life.

You follow your vet's directions to the best of your ability and cross your fingers that your rehab goes smoothly. If it doesn't, you step up and fix it - either by consulting your vet, getting a second opinion, etc etc. You don't dilly-dally on a forum for months saying "My vet doesn't think he has ulcers but I think he does". You either a) treat him yourself for it if your knowledge base indicates that it is necessary, b) request your vet scope him, c) get a different vet if they refuse. (not necessarily in this order). This does not require nearly as much deliberation as you make it out to need! Really!

I think you need to follow the directions of your vet if you feel he is trustworthy. It sounds like you are possibly not equipped to handle his rehab - if you are as nervous-nellie with him as you are on this forum I would also suspect that this transfers to him and makes him more wound-up. Horses are very much a product of their environment - if the people around him are constantly in a state of chaos and flux and nervousness - it's no surprise he picks up on it. It's possible your BO suffers from the same problem. Dealing with horses on rehab takes a certain amount of skill and patience. Not all barns are in fact equipped to handle this.

It also sounds like you have little confidence in your vet OR yourself in the decision making process. So again, time to step up to the plate and get another vet for a second opinion and a scrip for a different tranq if he thinks it necessary.

Do you maybe not have access to other good vets in your area? That is the only real excuse I can think of for all of this waffling about...

[Fharoah]

Ok honestly...this may not be popular and I mean this with the best of intentions (and also recognizing that much of it must be out of how much you care for your boy)...

I read this forum a lot and you constantly mention your horse and his pastern. I guess as someone who has, in my career in horses, known a lot of horses on stall rest (yes, even quite longterm and significant stuff), I think you're paranoid, worrying too much, etc. Which I understand - he's important to you, this no doubt cost a significant amount of $$$, and you just want your horse to be okay! Again, totally understandable. But horses get injured. It happens, it sucks, but it's part of life.

You follow your vet's directions to the best of your ability and cross your fingers that your rehab goes smoothly. If it doesn't, you step up and fix it - either by consulting your vet, getting a second opinion, etc etc. You don't dilly-dally on a forum for months saying "My vet doesn't think he has ulcers but I think he does". You either a) treat him yourself for it if your knowledge base indicates that it is necessary, b) request your vet scope him, c) get a different vet if they refuse. (not necessarily in this order). This does not require nearly as much deliberation as you make it out to need! Really!

I think you need to follow the directions of your vet if you feel he is trustworthy. It sounds like you are possibly not equipped to handle his rehab - if you are as nervous-nellie with him as you are on this forum I would also suspect that this transfers to him and makes him more wound-up. Horses are very much a product of their environment - if the people around him are constantly in a state of chaos and flux and nervousness - it's no surprise he picks up on it. It's possible your BO suffers from the same problem. Dealing with horses on rehab takes a certain amount of skill and patience. Not all barns are in fact equipped to handle this.

It also sounds like you have little confidence in your vet OR yourself in the decision making process. So again, time to step up to the plate and get another vet for a second opinion and a scrip for a different tranq if he thinks it necessary.

Do you maybe not have access to other good vets in your area? That is the only real excuse I can think of for all of this waffling about...

I understand why you get this impression. I have complained allot on this forum. I have allot of faith in my vet why he was not scoped at the hospital when I requested because I trusted my vet said no need to scope. The reason this horse still gets bute is because my vets say he doesn't have ulcers, when he is not acting himself I do sometimes worry about the possibility of ulcers, but because he is doing pretty well considering I keep him on bute as my surgeon recommended. I would never give him bute if ulcers were a concern, because bute can cause ulcers I thought why not treat him for a month once end of that. Yes we have spent around 20k since 2007 and would really like Fharoah sound. I did have some concerns prior to proceeding with surgery based on seggestion of navicular by MRI, I wanted to block him at the foot to rule it out because I did not want to put him through surgery if he had navicular. Because my surgeon said he has no clinical signs of navicular we went ahead with surgery. I really do trust my surgeon.

I actually think my horse is doing pretty well for him. My surgeon had this horse for three weeks very competent and Fharoah had regular explosions he tripple kicked the walls, he went crazy at times there in great hands, they told me they said he just does that sometimes. Sometimes I just worry about him hurting himself but he is overall doing well for him. Also we are not hand walking at all, he lives at home and is a good boy just exuberant and explosive in his personality. As for fluphenazine it scares me I would never use it other than as a last resort. So yes I am venting when he is having one of his several wild days. Please understand I trust my vet! I am just stressing on this forum somewhat. I won't be seaking any other vets as I respect that fluphenazine can be a dangerous drug. Also my horse was wonderful during rehab last year when I am on him he is great I can ride him after a month or two off, hand walking is a much bigger challenge.


I wrote this thread when I was frustrated perhaps a mistake, I guess I can't talk to anyone.

[Dazednconfused]

Rehab in and of itself can be a very frustrating experience.

I still think that if this frustration is that overwhelming, it is also overwhelming for your horse.

Again, if you are that concerned about ulcers, then you need to have him scoped. If you are that concerned about his cavorting in his stall, then you need to step up to something stronger.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking a second opinion. Maybe it will confirm what your surgeon has already said. Maybe it will confirm your own thoughts. How will you know unless you try? And again, why the waffling? Just do it already....nobody here knows you or your horse, and I would say the majority don't have the credentials to diagnose or assess your horse like you and your vet can. I mean if you have 20k into this horse already then what's another few hundred to get him scoped and checked out by a different vet?

I guess I just don't get it :confused:

[FineAlready]

Okay, I kind of agree with Dazednconfused. I tried to get this across a bit in my first post. Horses are a reflection of their handlers. Even laid up horses. Not everyone is capable of giving every laid up horse what it needs, and there is no shame in getting someone else to help you. I consider myself a very competent horse person, but I wasn't the best person to be dealing with my horse every day while he is on stall rest. Now that I've moved him to a better place and am paying others to handle most of his rehab, both he and I are happier. I still see him four days a week and am very much involved in his vet care. BUT, his day-to-day needs (including hand walks) are almost entirely met by other experienced horse people. I spend quality time grooming him, loving on him, etc. We both like it better, I think.

The stress of rehabbing a horse can take a toll on a person. You want so badly for him to get better, and you carry that stress with you all the time. He picks up on it. In my experience, this is when it is time to get an impartial EXPERIENCED third party involved to assist with care.

Think about it. If your horse is freaking out in his stall, is it better for him to have you standing outside the stall panicking and perhaps even crying (I know I've done it), or is it better for an impartial, experienced horse person to note the activity and move on? You'll never stop a nutty horse by worrying in its general direction.

Horses on stall rest "lose it" sometimes. That's sort of how it goes. When Pharoah was at the vet clinic, the vet noted the behavior and then moved on...because that is all you can do. The vet did not fret and worry about the situation and pace back and forth in front of the stall. If the horse had injured himself badly during the romping, the vet would have addressed that injury. That's just how it is with horses. As much as we wish we could tell them to take it easy and let themselves heal, we can't.

Honestly, take a deep breath and just let the rehab happen. If you think the horse might have some ulcers, treat him for ulcers. If not, stop worrying about it. If you can't stop worrying all the time, stay away from the horse until you can stop worrying. I worried constantly until I moved my horse. Amazingly, he has survived (and, frankly, flourished) without me hanging around him worrying all the time. They are herd animals, and you are a member of their herd (hopefully, the dominant member). If you are worried all the time, it will impact the rehab.

For your own mental health and your horse's mental health, find a reliable, competent person to help with the rehab and give you a bit of a break.

[Dazednconfused]

FineAlready - thanks for putting that more tactfully than I was able to. I agree completely.

[Riley0522]

After surgery he got 2grams of bute twice daily for two days, then 1.5 grams for a few days, then 1 gram twice daily for a few days, back up to 1.5 grams twice daily for about three weeks, ten days at 1 gram twice daily, then 3/4 gram twice daily until 3 months, now 1/2 gram twice daily until December 6, 1/2 gram daily until January 6th which is five month as prescribed by my surgeon. He seems to tolerate the bute well, I was thinking I would treat him with gastroguard for all January just in case and of course if any changes in appetite manure weight I will stop the bute, he shows no clinical signs of ulcers,other than some mild changes which may or may not be related.

I didn't even read this whole thread, but am familiar with some of your other posts about your horse and after reading this, put the horse on Gastrogard, now. Period. Any horse on that much bute probably has ulcers. My horse was on bute for an extended period of time with his serious leg injury and I'm 99% certain that's what caused his belly full of ulcers and an extra year of putting up with crap/getting no work done because my vet didn't think he had ulcers because he was eating. My vet (who is a wonderful vet and did an amazing job with my horse's leg) never mentioned any sort of ulcer prevention to me while my horse was on loads of bute for months and stall rest, and then never thought it was the problem when I had been riding for months consistantly and he was still explosive. I took him to a different vet and had him scoped, loads and loads of ulcers...and I'm certain the bute did it.

If it were my horse, I would have him on 30 days of a full tube of Gastrogard, and then keep him on 1/4-1/2 tube a day until he's back to his normal routine. You don't need a vet's prescription, you can just order Ulcergard which is the exact same thing, just labeled as the preventative dose. I would atleast give it a try before you start loading your horse up on antipsychotics (did that too when vet was insisting no ulcers - Prolixin to be exact, which is fluphenazine). You might be amazed at the difference if the horse does have ulcers.

Good luck!

[Fharoah]

Fharoah is a good boy, has had some challenges and I was frustrated and vented here, ,mistake. As for hand walking Fharoah would very calmly and slowly walk into the isle so we could clean his cast wounds and change his bandage this was like maybe 50 feet. My surgeon said this was not ok and not to take his one step out of the stall under any circumstances he repeated three times this same statement. Fharoah will be treated with gastroguard for a month as a cautionary measure. He will not be recieveing fluphenazine. Hopefully he will heal as needed! A second opinion is not really a viable option for me.

Thankyou for listening to me when I was frustrated. Fharoah is fine and will hopefully come sound!

Thankyou for your support!

[Fharoah]

I tried to get this across a bit in my first post. Horses are a reflection of their handlers. Even laid up horses. Not everyone is capable of giving every laid up horse what it needs, and there is no shame in getting someone else to help you.

My vet did give acepromazine when he went crazy at the hospital some of my concern is because my surgeon said "movement is extremely detrimental" I think we may finnally past the "very detremental stage" but still prefer him calm. As for not being able to handle him he is a pretty good boy when I handle him in the stall, he is good for the farrier ext. he gets explosive on his own it is when I see him rearing, kicking spinning ext. I get concerned but really he is a good boy who likes to play he always had e.g. at one point we were tack walking he was a perfect gentlemen I could ride him bareback no tranq, but in his small paddoc he was wild.

I appolagise for complaining on this forum!

[Fharoah]

I really feel for you :(. My mare is on 6 months stall rest with only walking under saddle. I moved her to a new barn in October and up until then she had only been given ace when we were walking her under saddle. When we moved she was understandably a little more excited in her new environment and she wasn't even safe to hand walk (up until that point we could hand walk her without any ace), so I made the decision to give her fluphenazine. She didn't have any adverse reactions and was back to her regular self. It's been more than 30 days and unless she does something really stupid in her stall then I hope to not have to give her any more but if it means she'll stay quiet then I'll do it again. I live in Ontario and my vet didn't bat an eyelash when I asked for a longer lasting tranq. I would think that you could find someone out there to prescribe it if you needed it. I do think that if my mare had as much room as your gelding does that she would definitely be wilder. As far as distractions for my mare she has a ball that she rolls around to get some crunch out of and lots, and lots of hay.

Thankyou! I really hope your mare is getting better, she is a beautiful mare! How is she doing?

[EqTrainer]

Don't worry about it, it's ok to feel frustrated after such a stressful event and to feel like you need somewhere that you can just "talk" about it. Sometimes you cannot do that w/your vet.

It is such an uncommon surgery, I think, that it is interesting to hear about it. I hope it all turns out well.

[Fharoah]

I didn't even read this whole thread, but am familiar with some of your other posts about your horse and after reading this, put the horse on Gastrogard, now. Period. Any horse on that much bute probably has ulcers. My horse was on bute for an extended period of time with his serious leg injury and I'm 99% certain that's what caused his belly full of ulcers and an extra year of putting up with crap/getting no work done because my vet didn't think he had ulcers because he was eating. My vet (who is a wonderful vet and did an amazing job with my horse's leg) never mentioned any sort of ulcer prevention to me while my horse was on loads of bute for months and stall rest, and then never thought it was the problem when I had been riding for months consistantly and he was still explosive. I took him to a different vet and had him scoped, loads and loads of ulcers...and I'm certain the bute did it.

If it were my horse, I would have him on 30 days of a full tube of Gastrogard, and then keep him on 1/4-1/2 tube a day until he's back to his normal routine. You don't need a vet's prescription, you can just order Ulcergard which is the exact same thing, just labeled as the preventative dose. I would atleast give it a try before you start loading your horse up on antipsychotics (did that too when vet was insisting no ulcers - Prolixin to be exact, which is fluphenazine). You might be amazed at the difference if the horse does have ulcers.

Good luck!

Did your horse have any clinical signs of ulcers? If so if you don't mind me asking what were the signs

[Fharoah]

Don't worry about it, it's ok to feel frustrated after such a stressful event and to feel like you need somewhere that you can just "talk" about it. Sometimes you cannot do that w/your vet.

It is such an uncommon surgery, I think, that it is interesting to hear about it. I hope it all turns out well.

Thankyou I appreciate your understanding!

[FineAlready]

As for not being able to handle him he is a pretty good boy when I handle him in the stall, he is good for the farrier ext. he gets explosive on his own it is when I see him rearing, kicking spinning ext. I get concerned

I appolagise for complaining on this forum![/QUOTE]

No one ever said you were complaining and I don't view it that way at all. I've been in your shoes. You did ask for advice, though, and that's what people have been trying to give you. Regarding the rearing, kicking, spinning, etc. in the stall...mine was/is the same way. Like yours, he is fine to handle, hand walk, etc. (now that the fluphenazine has worn off!). All I'm saying is that the environment surrounding the horse can also lead to stressed out behavior in the stall...even when not being handled. After I moved my horse to a new barn where he received quiet, consistent handling from a non-stressed person every day, the episodes of stall crazies lessened dramatically. They still occur from time to time, but they are much less frequent.

I'm really not trying to put you down or imply that you can't handle your horse. I have almost 25 years of experience with horses, and I still had to finally admit that I needed help with my horse's rehab. Anyway...just food for thought. I am just so pleased with the result I got after I moved my horse to a better facility where I could actually get some help from other experienced horse people that I thought I would share it with you.

Take my advice or leave it - really!

[Fharoah]

No one ever said you were complaining and I don't view it that way at all. I've been in your shoes. You did ask for advice, though, and that's what people have been trying to give you. Regarding the rearing, kicking, spinning, etc. in the stall...mine was/is the same way. Like yours, he is fine to handle, hand walk, etc. (now that the fluphenazine has worn off!). All I'm saying is that the environment surrounding the horse can also lead to stressed out behavior in the stall...even when not being handled. After I moved my horse to a new barn where he received quiet, consistent handling from a non-stressed person every day, the episodes of stall crazies lessened dramatically. They still occur from time to time, but they are much less frequent.

I'm really not trying to put you down or imply that you can't handle your horse. I have almost 25 years of experience with horses, and I still had to finally admit that I needed help with my horse's rehab. Anyway...just food for thought. I am just so pleased with the result I got after I moved my horse to a better facility where I could actually get some help from other experienced horse people that I thought I would share it with you.

Take my advice or leave it - really![/QUOTE]

Ok sorry for being so grumpy I do value your advise. I do agree with you! I have my own private barn. He has two buddies who are really quiet, they are his girls he strokes him them they neck and kiss are best friends the girls are really quiet, good influences. I have actually had a few compliments on Fhaorah being such a happy stall bound horse. Honestly another facility is not an option for me, he is doing well because I am nervous about the secess of surgery I would have felt more relaxed if I new the edge was taken off. However he is a good boy as I can show on video, I not sure we will be doing any handwalking my surgeon is pretty strict about "not taking him out of his stall for any circumstances". I really do appreciate everybody trying to help! He does at times buck rear kick spin trot and canter but as my surgeon says "thats Fharoah" so I really really hope the surgery does the trick and a quieter horse would not have made a difference. I feel so emotional about this whole thing my surgeon/specialist feels he has a very good chance at full ridding soundness and I really want to give him the best possible chance at becoming sound. I will literally do anything to get this horse comforable I really hope this surgery does the trick!

[Dazednconfused]

Fharoah is a good boy, has had some challenges and I was frustrated and vented here, ,mistake. As for hand walking Fharoah would very calmly and slowly walk into the isle so we could clean his cast wounds and change his bandage this was like maybe 50 feet. My surgeon said this was not ok and not to take his one step out of the stall under any circumstances he repeated three times this same statement. Fharoah will be treated with gastroguard for a month as a cautionary measure. He will not be recieveing fluphenazine. Hopefully he will heal as needed! A second opinion is not really a viable option for me.

Thankyou for listening to me when I was frustrated. Fharoah is fine and will hopefully come sound!

Thankyou for your support!

It's no mistake to be frustrated and to vent. But if you're asking for opinions, don't be surprised when you get them, and more still, don't be surprised if they aren't exactly what you wanted to hear.

I guess I don't understand why you're willing to drop $900 on ulcer treatment but not seek a second opinion.

Did your horse have any clinical signs of ulcers? If so if you don't mind me asking what were the signs

This topic has been discussed ad naseum (especially for that period of time where it seemed like every horse had ulcers! :lol:). Girthiness, sensitivity/grouchiness, general unthriftyness/bad coat...

http://www.azequine.com/ulcer.pdf


No one ever said you were complaining and I don't view it that way at all. I've been in your shoes. You did ask for advice, though, and that's what people have been trying to give you. Regarding the rearing, kicking, spinning, etc. in the stall...mine was/is the same way. Like yours, he is fine to handle, hand walk, etc. (now that the fluphenazine has worn off!). All I'm saying is that the environment surrounding the horse can also lead to stressed out behavior in the stall...even when not being handled. After I moved my horse to a new barn where he received quiet, consistent handling from a non-stressed person every day, the episodes of stall crazies lessened dramatically. They still occur from time to time, but they are much less frequent.

I'm really not trying to put you down or imply that you can't handle your horse. I have almost 25 years of experience with horses, and I still had to finally admit that I needed help with my horse's rehab. Anyway...just food for thought. I am just so pleased with the result I got after I moved my horse to a better facility where I could actually get some help from other experienced horse people that I thought I would share it with you.

Take my advice or leave it - really!

Agreed very much. It's really no reflection on your skill as a horsewoman if you're not able to manage his rehab, though I can certainly understand not being able to justify, or afford sending a horse to a truly skilled facility (and they aren't easy to find anyway!). OTOH, I'll reiterate that any jitters and worries his handler has will adversely affect him. I know that's not what you want to hear...

Ok sorry for being so grumpy I do value your advise. I do agree with you! I have my own private barn. He has two buddies who are really quiet, they are his girls he strokes him them they neck and kiss are best friends the girls are really quiet, good influences. I have actually had a few compliments on Fhaorah being such a happy stall bound horse. Honestly another facility is not an option for me, he is doing well because I am nervous about the secess of surgery I would have felt more relaxed if I new the edge was taken off. However he is a good boy as I can show on video, I not sure we will be doing any handwalking my surgeon is pretty strict about "not taking him out of his stall for any circumstances". I really do appreciate everybody trying to help!

Fharaoh, can you please help me to understand why you are so averse to seeking a second opinion? And if you really weren't that worried/concerned about his cavorting and carrying on, then you wouldn't have posted here.

I'm just trying to understand here and am having trouble.

[Dazednconfused]

While I understand your predicament better now...

Any vet that is offended by a client seeking a second opinion isn't really worth having.

[Fharoah]

My surgeon is really kind and caring and hopefully he can help get Fharoah sound! I am willing to treat for ulcers because I believe all my horse has been through and bute but because I really don't know I will wait until off bute then treat for 30 days. If he shows any outward clinincal signs that I can make a direct correlation he will be taken off bute, blood tested, and treated that day. I do very much love my boy and worry about him I am trying but I can't do everything perfectly as I would like to. I really really hope what I am doing is good enough to help my beloved boy come sound! I really appreciate everybodies support!

[FineAlready]

Fharoah,

I can see why you wouldn't want to move him if you have him at home. I sort of struggled with a similar (but not quite the same) situation with my horse when deciding to move him. Mine was boarded at one facility that was about 10 minutes from my home. I moved him to a place about an hour away. Ironically, I have more time now that he is farther away. Your situation is definitely different, though, in that you actually already pay for your home barn and will continue to do so whether he is there or not, so it's not a simple matter of just switching facilities. And, dazednconfused is right, it's really not that easy to find a suitable place for a rehab. Actually, it's not even that easy to find a suitable place to keep horses that ARE sound. Trust me, I am painfully aware of that fact!

To be honest with you, your horse's rehab sounds pretty normal to me. I know it is awful to watch them bounding around on an injury, but, unfortunately, it seems like this happens a lot. One of the nice things about keeping my horse at a place where there are a bunch of experienced horse people around is that one of those other horse people can look at me when my horse is rearing and bucking in his stall and say, "It's okay. He's going to do that. There's nothing you can do. He'll calm down in a minute." That's the beauty of having an impartial third party around.

Now that I know your horses are at home, I think you probably just need someone to tell you, "It's okay. He's going to do that. There's nothing you can do. He'll calm down in a minute." So, I'm telling you. I think you're probably really just looking for support on COTH because you don't have a ready supply of other horsey people available at your barn to support you emotionally through this. Is there anyone horsey close by that could maybe stop by once a week and just hang out with you at the barn? You know, talk about horses, talk about life, talk about the upcoming holidays, etc. Maybe you could ride your other horses and chat? A trainer, perhaps? Anyone?

Again, if you are calm and confident when you are around your horse, that will have a positive impact on your horse. This includes feeling emotionally stable and at peace even when you are feeding, sweeping the aisle, etc. If you can get the emotional support you need, my guess is that your tranquility will transfer to your horse much more than you would ever imagine possible.

I hope this helps. I really do feel for you and I hope your buddy is better soon!

[Fharoah]

Fharoah,

I can see why you wouldn't want to move him if you have him at home. I sort of struggled with a similar (but not quite the same) situation with my horse when deciding to move him. Mine was boarded at one facility that was about 10 minutes from my home. I moved him to a place about an hour away. Ironically, I have more time now that he is farther away. Your situation is definitely different, though, in that you actually already pay for your home barn and will continue to do so whether he is there or not, so it's not a simple matter of just switching facilities. And, dazednconfused is right, it's really not that easy to find a suitable place for a rehab. Actually, it's not even that easy to find a suitable place to keep horses that ARE sound. Trust me, I am painfully aware of that fact!

To be honest with you, your horse's rehab sounds pretty normal to me. I know it is awful to watch them bounding around on an injury, but, unfortunately, it seems like this happens a lot. One of the nice things about keeping my horse at a place where there are a bunch of experienced horse people around is that one of those other horse people can look at me when my horse is rearing and bucking in his stall and say, "It's okay. He's going to do that. There's nothing you can do. He'll calm down in a minute." That's the beauty of having an impartial third party around.

Now that I know your horses are at home, I think you probably just need someone to tell you, "It's okay. He's going to do that. There's nothing you can do. He'll calm down in a minute." So, I'm telling you. I think you're probably really just looking for support on COTH because you don't have a ready supply of other horsey people available at your barn to support you emotionally through this. Is there anyone horsey close by that could maybe stop by once a week and just hang out with you at the barn? You know, talk about horses, talk about life, talk about the upcoming holidays, etc. Maybe you could ride your other horses and chat? A trainer, perhaps? Anyone?

Again, if you are calm and confident when you are around your horse, that will have a positive impact on your horse. This includes feeling emotionally stable and at peace even when you are feeding, sweeping the aisle, etc. If you can get the emotional support you need, my guess is that your tranquility will transfer to your horse much more than you would ever imagine possible.

I hope this helps. I really do feel for you and I hope your buddy is better soon!


I appreciate your kind words! I do understand what you mean about another facility. Honestly I live on an Island and there are no other facilities that are suitable.

When Fharoah went off in 2007 I had a very experienced family of borders they would say "lock him up and sedate the crap out of him or just ride him he is going hurt himself. He was the biggest show off lame horse ever never looked lame in his flying changes and all paddoc but he was a 2/5. We did end up locking him up and sedateing him at vets recommendation even with 30x30, 12x24, it was amazing what he could still do in 12x12 2008, 2009 he did improve had him real close to sound at the trot but he would intermittently short stride at the walk. Diagnosed with ringbone he was intermittently really short stidding at the walk and an intermittent 1/5 at the trot, my surgeon stated worse at the walk than the trot (unique horse I have). Despite repeated IRAP, adequan, recovery EQ HA and 24/7 turnout he regressed over the summer back to 2/5 at trot and lame at the walk collateral ligament injury that did not likely heal well, possibly mineralization and ringbone so we fused with a good to excellent chance at soundness. When at hospital my surgeon warned me my horse went beserk a few times as well as his daily regular explosions. He said "he needs to stay as quiet" after getting to know the horse he said as quiet as possible, the problem is going to being keeping him quiet enough". So I have tried my best to keep him calm, if I had my way he would stand around quietly all the time I want this surgery to work so badly! The stall buddy has really helped and I think he has grown up some since 2007 I really hope allows himself to heal, I just love this horse to much to have him in pain! I do think he has been a good boy overall just hope he can heal the way he needs to!


Thankyou to everyone for the support recheck is beginning of February I am staying bussy still waiting is not one of my virtures.

[Riley0522]

Did your horse have any clinical signs of ulcers? If so if you don't mind me asking what were the signs

Under saddle, yes I believe his signs were very clinical; spooking at just about anything and everything. It wasn't just spooking like "oh I'm looking at that..." think refusing to go anywhere near an object he perceived as scary, flying backwards, spinning around, refusing to move forward, crow hopping. He would spook at people watching me ride that had been there for the first 30 minutes of the ride, BAM...all of sudden they were the scariest thing on Earth.

Otherwise, at times he did have symptoms, at times he did not. He actually gained weight at times, was pretty good about eating (I had added an antacid to his grain) and was fairly quiet while outside (he's on 24/7 turnout with a run-in). There were times when he was fresh off the injury that he was jumping the fence everyday and tearing around the farm like a madman (while he was still walking under saddle only...this is when we tried the Prolixin) and he would NOT stand still in the cross ties, was a total nightmare to handle...would dance, walk all over you, would spook in hand at the smallest things. The behavior was very erratic and he would have good days and bad....some days I would suspect it was going to be a horrible day (ie: windy, cold, I hadn't been out to the barn in a few days) and he would be an angel...then we'd have the nicest, quietest day on Earth when he had been worked for 3 days in a row and he would be a complete moron.

I will admit I knew nothing of ulcers prior to this, and to me I never would have pinpointed that as his problem, but it absolutely was and I'm thanking the heavens for Gastrogard! Good luck with your boy.

[mvp]

I have a truly whack idea. See what you think.

If Fharoah was ever "ranch broke" in the grand style of the patient, working quarter horse, did he ever learn that being tied means "park... perhaps indefinitely"?

This is not the time to teach that skill if he doesn't already know it. Horses young and old tend to have a few tantrums until the learn that they need to wait just 'cause we say so, and that it's really not that bad.

However, if you have a horse that likes to please and was, at one point taught the rule of being tied, then you might be able to tie (short, at eye-level or above) or cross tie him in his stall for a time.

If I were in your "out of options" and "Horse, it's way more important for you to stand still than you appreciate" kind of position, I might take a day to train him that quiet was what I wanted.

If he got riled up, I'd put him in cross ties until he got quiet. Then he'd "earn" a return to being loose. If he got riled again, he'd be tied until quiet so that he could make a better decision next time.

Your other option is to do what others have said: Try your very best to ignore him. This also might mean saying "No!" and (with great fanfair) absolutely turning your back on him when he starts jumping up and down. Most horses don't "whine" by wasting the energy it takes to throw a fit when they know there's no audience to hear them roar.

Fharoah sounds smart and personable. It's clear that you adore him. He probably adores you too. So this offers you a bit of needed leverage. He probably will do anything to keep you from ignoring him. By giving attention when he does "the right thing" and withholding it when he does not, you teach him what you want. You thereby get him to invest himself in the problem of containing his energy as he needs to do in order to be good patient.

[Fharoah]

I have a truly whack idea. See what you think.

If Fharoah was ever "ranch broke" in the grand style of the patient, working quarter horse, did he ever learn that being tied means "park... perhaps indefinitely"?

This is not the time to teach that skill if he doesn't already know it. Horses young and old tend to have a few tantrums until the learn that they need to wait just 'cause we say so, and that it's really not that bad.

However, if you have a horse that likes to please and was, at one point taught the rule of being tied, then you might be able to tie (short, at eye-level or above) or cross tie him in his stall for a time.

If I were in your "out of options" and "Horse, it's way more important for you to stand still than you appreciate" kind of position, I might take a day to train him that quiet was what I wanted.

If he got riled up, I'd put him in cross ties until he got quiet. Then he'd "earn" a return to being loose. If he got riled again, he'd be tied until quiet so that he could make a better decision next time.

Your other option is to do what others have said: Try your very best to ignore him. This also might mean saying "No!" and (with great fanfair) absolutely turning your back on him when he starts jumping up and down. Most horses don't "whine" by wasting the energy it takes to throw a fit when they know there's no audience to hear them roar.

Fharoah sounds smart and personable. It's clear that you adore him. He probably adores you too. So this offers you a bit of needed leverage. He probably will do anything to keep you from ignoring him. By giving attention when he does "the right thing" and withholding it when he does not, you teach him what you want. You thereby get him to invest himself in the problem of containing his energy as he needs to do in order to be good patient.

Fharoah always give 100% undersaddle he tries so hard my trainner loves him, the trainner who showed him in baby green loved him. He does not stand so well on the cross ties,I don't think I have ever really tied him other than in the trailer. It is a good idea.

Yes he is hard to ignore, he has the best whinny, he also has a dreadful habbit of banging his pastern when demanding food (the one with the plate until I resond he will bash it hard I must leave the barn, he is a notty boy with this habbit. But he is also such a good boy.

[ladipus]

Most of you know of my gelding was on stall rest last year for a collateral ligament injury. Tried reserpine, l tryptophan, magnesium oxide, Valerian root, no grain but then I end up using a tiny bit of beet pulp to blend powders but none worked. He was good sometimes and not so good others. I used ace and tons of it with minimal secess. So we had him virtually sound and in rehab ended up with ringbone. Steroid HA and IRAP legend and adequan helped but didn't produce soundness so I went to arthrodesis surgery. So now I have him on stall rest again, since the above had failed I have been using lots of ace. I sort of helps but he gets used to it. I asked my vets for fluphenazine but they don't use it. I am starting to feel like I am throwing money down the drain on ace and magnesium and like giving up because I just can't keep him calm, he is a good boy sometimes crazy others. His joint is partly fused, he did break two screws (nothing we can do about that). He can't hurt himself as badly now, what would you do. I am all for drugging keep them calm so they can heal whatever it takes but what can I do when nothing works?

You can try Perfect Prep Eq-comes in a powder which you can adjust the dose to get desired effect...they also make it in "extreme",and "gold" in paste to enhance the powder...i've also had good luck w/ Ex Stress and Quiessence...along w/ an ulcer supplement may really help your guy...finish line's u7 and corta flx u guard work great

[mvp]

Many horses are far more broke under saddle than on the ground..... and you are just learning the hard way how that comes back to bite us in the a$$.

If Fharoah can Man Up under saddle, he can Man Up on the ground. In fact, he might dig it. He sounds bored and lonely. Give him a job.

Since you have never laid down the rules about tying, this might not be the direction you want to try now.

I certainly would use the certainly start behaving with him in a systematic way that rewards quietness and "punishes" temper tantrums. He gets to have an opinion, but he doesn't get to hurt himself and undo $20K worth of work and months (years?) of time spent trying to put him back together. Ferchissakes! And pawing or banging with the injured pastern? Are you kidding me? Where is this nice horse's sense of responsibility?

But I digress. The point is that if Fharoah finds that there's a logic to the way you pay attention to him or withhold it, there might be some mental benefits for him. First, he has a little puzzle to figure out. Second, he discovers that he can manipulate you by changing his behavior. This is the evil secret of horse training: Make 'em think they are training you while you train them and they'll keep coming back for more.

In any case, it sounds like you are both bored and do want to hang out with each other so that your respective minds don't wander in bad directions-- yours toward catastrophic results for him, potential problems and his suffering, and his toward, well, "Let me out, pastern be damned!" If you think about finding things to teach Fharoah while he's laid up, you'll have a way to relate to him that's almost as sensitive and involved as training under saddle.

[Fharoah]

Many horses are far more broke under saddle than on the ground..... and you are just learning the hard way how that comes back to bite us in the a$$.

If Fharoah can Man Up under saddle, he can Man Up on the ground. In fact, he might dig it. He sounds bored and lonely. Give him a job.

Since you have never laid down the rules about tying, this might not be the direction you want to try now.

I certainly would use the certainly start behaving with him in a systematic way that rewards quietness and "punishes" temper tantrums. He gets to have an opinion, but he doesn't get to hurt himself and undo $20K worth of work and months (years?) of time spent trying to put him back together. Ferchissakes! And pawing or banging with the injured pastern? Are you kidding me? Where is this nice horse's sense of responsibility?

But I digress. The point is that if Fharoah finds that there's a logic to the way you pay attention to him or withhold it, there might be some mental benefits for him. First, he has a little puzzle to figure out. Second, he discovers that he can manipulate you by changing his behavior. This is the evil secret of horse training: Make 'em think they are training you while you train them and they'll keep coming back for more.

In any case, it sounds like you are both bored and do want to hang out with each other so that your respective minds don't wander in bad directions-- yours toward catastrophic results for him, potential problems and his suffering, and his toward, well, "Let me out, pastern be damned!" If you think about finding things to teach Fharoah while he's laid up, you'll have a way to relate to him that's almost as sensitive and involved as training under saddle.

Thankyou, I find your post very intellegent. I think you have some very good ideas. It is going to be a challenge for me to learn how to teach my horse new methoids but I will give it my best try! Fharoah and I do need a focus, because the waiting period is tough on both of us.

How many weeks would you wait for a summary and reciept your vet said they would send you before asking again?

[Fharoah]

Oh its been 2.5 years the best I had him was maybe 98%. I followed my GP recommendations, 2nd equine vets recommendations, surgeon lameness specialist recommendation, 2nd big hospitals recommendation. My lameness specialist/surgeon did the surgery and I am now in the Convalescence period which will be appoximently a year and hopefully a happy sound horse!

I really do appreciate everyone opinions, MVP I will work on getting Fharoah to behave on the ground the way he behaves undersaddle. He can horrible for handwalking, and just an angle for tack walking.

[Fharoah]

I have taken out the magnesium and increased the acepromazine. He is currently being a good boy so lets hope! I really appreciate everybodies positive words! As you say he is going to have his wild moments but he has been much calmer!

I am still alittle concerned about him as he is almost just dull sedate to the point that concerns me. They only suppy gastgard here and it costs more in Canada was wondering about zantac.


Thankyou all!

[Fharoah]

Fharoah is doing well! It was taken me awhille to get him calm so allot of ace 6.5ml of 25mg/ml seems to work great as in he is sedate the majority of the time! He is wild ocassionally but so much better. This will not be a long term solution but I am hoping to keep him quiet until recheck beginning of February when we will hopefully move onto small paddock turnout or handwalk:eek: that would require lots of drugs. I still wish my vets used fluphenazine as it would be so much easier especially when starting rehab but at least he is mostly quiet for now! (costing me $72 a week for ace) but at least it is helping for now! I am frustrated I didn't figure out how to drug him better sooner maybe both lag screws would not have been broken. But that is past tense and he is doing well at the moment. Supper nervous for recheck!

Thankyou all, I really appreciate everybodies support!

[Long Spot]

Glad to hear he is doing well.

I remember comisserating with you earlier because I had a stall rest pony not handling things well either. I also remember telling you that the research I'd done and the chats I'd had with a few vets were that Fluphen was a pretty scary drug and that I was only going to go there as a last ditch effort.

Aaaaand we finally caved and gave it. Total last ditch effort. Pony was going to re-injure and get himself another six months in the stall. And it worked really well. I wish you were able to get it for your guy. You've tried so much with him, and I commend you for doing what you need to do to keep him comfortable and sane.

Fingers crossed for your recheck. Wishing you and your horse the best news!

[Fharoah]

Thanks long spot. Yes I really do wish I had fluphenazine acepromazine is not a long time sedation, and every time he is not quite himself I worry about him. I am really crossing my fingers and hoping those February radiographs look good. He is so used to ace I am not sure what I am going to use to rehab him. I hope your pony makes a full recovery!