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Kyzteke
Nov. 11, 2009, 11:04 AM
The post asking for an evaluation of an endurance prospect got me to thinking about a good, educational game we could play (yeah, I'm getting old).

As a (probably former) breeder of endurance horses, I think it will be fun for me.

First -- post the pedigree of your horse (Arab preferred, but not necessary).

We can all post how we think he/she would do, then post their AERC record! If you have personal knowledge of this horse and they were a total wash out for whatever reason, that would be great too.

I'll start -- NO CHEATING!!

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bountyful+prince

Based on the pedigree -- do you think this horse would be a suitable endurance horse?

prudence
Nov. 11, 2009, 11:42 AM
Great game. Well of course I know nothing but that doesn't commonly stop me from having an opinion. Top line is beautiful Egyptian; Morafic and Ibn Moniet El Nefous were stunning. Both horses are found in the Karahty lines popular in California endurance horses. The bottom Bask/Serafix is also pretty. Bask was Polish; Serafix was CMK and a full brother to Silver Drift. CMKs are highly considered for endurance. I would say this horse does well. Am I wrong?

Here is the mare line of my National Show Horse for your consideration:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ga+louisiana+grey

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 11, 2009, 12:32 PM
Sorry I cheated!!! Nice record, Kyzteke!

Kyzteke
Nov. 11, 2009, 05:43 PM
Sorry I cheated!!! Nice record, Kyzteke!

EM -- you gave it away:(!!!

And gosh, that is NOT my record (I wish). Just a good friend of mine. And I am really proud of how she is doing with this horse this year...she trained that horse from the ground up.

She has afew of my younger horses (that I've bred) and also one that I found for her...we'll see how that one does next year.

However, since we are talking about pedigrees,etc. it should be noted that this horse is a real PITA to ride (per his owner) and can be a real asshat sometimes. Took over 6 months of ground work before she felt it was safe to climb aboard. But she loves him anyway.

And he sure does well...1800+ miles this year and not one lame step!

Kyzteke
Nov. 11, 2009, 05:50 PM
I would say this horse does well. Am I wrong?

Here is the mare line of my National Show Horse for your consideration:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ga+louisiana+grey

No, you are right. EM gave it away :no: No more of that you guys!

Based on your mare's bloodlines, I would say the mare is/was abit of a hottie, with perhaps abit more knee action than is idea for endurance, but tough as nails and a real competitor.

I personally LOVE Bask, but my mare has Bask x 3 and my idea of a nightmare would be riding her for 100 miles (very jarring trot and a spook every mile or so). But when I bred her to my Akhal Teke stallion this is what I got:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2662507600104425996feBkSN

SO improved his movement. He can trot faster than most Arabs can canter & he looks to be VERY smooth. Lessened the spook too...although not sure why THAT happened...

This pic was taken on his 3rd b-day, so next year we'll see how he does....

prudence
Nov. 11, 2009, 10:11 PM
Boy Cisco is something else. How big is he at three? That light bay color is very attractive as well.
You are correct about our boy's gaits being rough - is that because of the heavy park talent on his mom's side? I was attributing his high-steppin' nature to his saddlebred pa. And yes, he is an extremely nice endurance horse with over 1200 endurance miles. Thanks for the information.

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 11, 2009, 11:51 PM
Oooooopsy, sorry :winkgrin: forgive me?

This is my mare, I attained her recently, am absolutely in love with her!!

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belesema+replika

Here is her pic:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=415928

I also have a NSH gelding. He has almost 1000 miles, this was his second year. Tragically we found that he has very, very early arthritis in his knee, which will be the end of his endurance career. He has too much action up front, which is much harder on the joints. He is going to be a dressage horse now, and has TONS of arena miles left, but it still broke my heart :( His mare line is by Ariston

Here he is: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=305349

This is my baby, I LOFF him! He is by a Varian-bred stallion, out of a polish mare, very large and damn nice legs. This little buggar moves sooooo efficiently, there is no wasted movement there. No action, just long, forward strides.

Here he is: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=389207

Sorry, I couldn't post pedigrees, I am no fun in this game!!!

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 11, 2009, 11:58 PM
Stupid facebook, sorry, picture links don't work

Kyzteke
Nov. 12, 2009, 08:40 AM
Boy Cisco is something else. How big is he at three? That light bay color is very attractive as well.
You are correct about our boy's gaits being rough - is that because of the heavy park talent on his mom's side? I was attributing his high-steppin' nature to his saddlebred pa. .

Cisco is actually a buckskin. His sire, Kinor was my cremello Akhal Teke stallion, who I lost in a freak pasture accident this last summer at only 9 yrs old. Pretty much decimated my breeding program and he is basically irreplaceble. But riders like Kerry Redente & Mel Hare have his babies o/o Arab mares and I have one or two due next year o/o Belesemo-bred mares...so we'll see. Might be nice if he left some sort of legacy. Either way it was a hard loss.

Anyway...Cisco is not tall. His dam is only 14.2 and she NEVER produces height. I bred her to a 16.3hh Dutch WB and got a lovely mare, but only 15hh!!

He is plenty tall for me and has SUPER bone (mom has plenty and dad was over 8" for a 950lb horse) and great feet, but he'll mature at about 14.3-15hh...I don't think he'll go over that.

His movement is wonderful, but I don't like the way his hind pasterns sit -- I think they are alittle "soft" for my tastes. But I've had other riders tell me not to worry about it. At my age I doubt I'll be doing Tevis-level endurance riding anyway.

As for your boy -- I was just evaluating the mare's side, and from what I understand that real high knee action doesn't make for super smooth gaits. Bask was an English pleasure horse (although not as extreme as these days), so I would guess both that AND the saddlebred would make the gaits abit rough. But boy, are the Bask horses tough!

Kyzteke
Nov. 12, 2009, 08:49 AM
Oooooopsy, sorry :winkgrin: forgive me?

This is my mare, I attained her recently, am absolutely in love with her!!

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belesema+replika


I also have a NSH gelding. :( His mare line is by Ariston

OK, but don't do it again :).

Well, I sure can't argue about your mare's bloodlines -- I have 3 Belesemo mares that I bought from Kim last year to breed to Kinor. I looks like two are in foal.

This one:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belesema+harmony
Her pics:
http://pets.webshots.com/album/575496905IOsLQq

This one is also in foal (I think) and I plan on keeping her for myself to ride, but will offer the foal for sale. Will be a hotter sort of ride, but I think a super endurance mount.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belesema+julietta

This last one was only 2 this year, so didn't get bred, which is a real shame, because I think she might have been the best of the lot. Super movement and absolutely a perfect doll. Wants to come be with you all the time. Not going to be super big (15hh max), but would be a perfect all-arounder -- could do some dressage, halter at the local level + endurance for a kid or smaller rider. And if you are into CMK breeding...

http://pets.webshots.com/album/575437425SWsrID

and her pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=BELESEMA+IREPLACEBLE&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

As for your gelding -- there is still alot you can do for arthritis, especially if you get it in the early stages; supplements, injections, etc. You could still do ALOT of trail miles on him. And some lower level dressage should actually help him stay flexible.

I love Ariston -- one of my mare's lines to Bask come through a full brother to Ariston.

Have you been riding your Belesemo mare yet?

piccolopony
Nov. 12, 2009, 10:26 AM
I'll play, Here is mine http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tf+lillys+shoshana

Gorgeous horses Kyzteke!!

rmh_rider
Nov. 12, 2009, 04:17 PM
Here ya go.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=DIAMONDS+IN+XS&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Umm, check out his line breeding. Woo.

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 12, 2009, 07:00 PM
OK, but don't do it again :).

Well, I sure can't argue about your mare's bloodlines -- I have 3 Belesemo mares that I bought from Kim last year to breed to Kinor. I looks like two are in foal.

This one:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belesema+harmony
Her pics:
http://pets.webshots.com/album/575496905IOsLQq

This one is also in foal (I think) and I plan on keeping her for myself to ride, but will offer the foal for sale. Will be a hotter sort of ride, but I think a super endurance mount.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belesema+julietta

This last one was only 2 this year, so didn't get bred, which is a real shame, because I think she might have been the best of the lot. Super movement and absolutely a perfect doll. Wants to come be with you all the time. Not going to be super big (15hh max), but would be a perfect all-arounder -- could do some dressage, halter at the local level + endurance for a kid or smaller rider. And if you are into CMK breeding...

http://pets.webshots.com/album/575437425SWsrID

and her pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=BELESEMA+IREPLACEBLE&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Oh girl, you KNOW I've been drooling over those girls for sale. I would buy Harmony in a second if she wasn't in foal, and would take the flaxen filly if she was a couple years older!! Love those girls!

As for your gelding -- there is still alot you can do for arthritis, especially if you get it in the early stages; supplements, injections, etc. You could still do ALOT of trail miles on him. And some lower level dressage should actually help him stay flexible.

I know he has a lot of miles left, that's why I am doing what's right for him and finding him a more appropriate home. He is not a fun "trail" horse, and he and I don't get along well enough 100% of the time to keep him as such. He is an absolute GEM in the arena, which makes me think he's more comfortable in there. I will find him a fantastic new home! And yes, he's been on both Adequan and Legend, Platinum Performance and is on 90 acres. He has only showed the slightest sign of pain after the last 50 we did (fast). I am sure all of our preventative treatments have kept him as sound as he is.

I love Ariston -- one of my mare's lines to Bask come through a full brother to Ariston.

Have you been riding your Belesemo mare yet?

Yes! She is my dream girl, I adore her! I did four 50's on her last month at the five-day down here. She rocks, I love her!!!! I have her right now to campaign, Kim wants her back when she's done being an endurance horse to breed her. I keep telling her I won't ever be done, she'll have to settle for a couple embryos!!

K, here are mine. I'll post info again:

Belesema Replika:

(pedigree speaks for itself)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belesema+replika

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43902172@N07/4099495608/in/set-72157622667465475/

PF Fast Eddy:

NSH gelding, out of an Ariston mare, bred for show on the Saddlebred side- this horse is clearly a show pony, he is a hoot to watch!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43902172@N07/4098740141/in/set-72157622667465475/

Top of the Walk CLL:

My up-and-comer, 3yr old gelding. His father is a Varian-bred GORGEOUS stallion, his mother is polish/spanish cross. I know he really looks like an elk/horse hybrid right now but I keep telling myself he will come together when he's four or five! I hope! Regardless, he has the best mind I have EVER come across, and is smooth as silk to ride. Gotta love it!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43902172@N07/4098742111/in/set-72157622667465475/

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 12, 2009, 07:03 PM
I'll play, Here is mine http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tf+lillys+shoshana

Gorgeous horses Kyzteke!!

I LOFFFFFFF Varian-bred horses (hence the fact I have one ;-)) I'll bet this horse is a stunner. There are a lot of super talented Bey Shah endurance horses, I used to have one, he was hot and spooky but an amazing athlete.

Where's the pics!!!! That's my favorite part of this game!

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 12, 2009, 07:05 PM
Here ya go.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=DIAMONDS+IN+XS&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Umm, check out his line breeding. Woo.

Love it! Gotta love Aulrab, so now it's just twice as much lovin'!

Should be athletic and nice and compact.

rmh_rider
Nov. 12, 2009, 07:18 PM
He has the shortest back I have ever seen on a horse. I should have left him a stallion just to pass on that back. Yes, he does have a short back. He is also very stocky.

No western no endurance NO treeless fits him they are too long in the length. English only. I ride in a Solstice. He is a wide. Big overstride of 12+ ". He has very little lift to his trot which is perfect for endurance. He has done well in endurance. Sound all the time. Great attitude all the time. I wish I could be sound all the time. sigh. This horse is also a super easy keeper, eats everything all the time, never picky, wants to try new stuff.

Color aside, more should have these crabbets - jmo. They are little sherman tanks and the other part is mt goat.

Not sure how to post a picture, so guess I won't.

Still think it is freaky that the sire and dam got together to make Shama. Barn accident? Whatever, it worked.

tabula rashah
Nov. 12, 2009, 07:54 PM
Okay, I can play half:
Here's my guy's pedigree (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/elm+grand+ambishahn)

He's a half sibling to Meg Sleeper's Syrocco Blair

Here's a few pics of him: Sienna (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tabula_rashah/sets/72157616863601782/)

I don't have any AERC miles yet- but we will soon:)

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 12, 2009, 09:00 PM
He has the shortest back I have ever seen on a horse. I should have left him a stallion just to pass on that back. Yes, he does have a short back. He is also very stocky.

No western no endurance NO treeless fits him they are too long in the length. English only. I ride in a Solstice. He is a wide. Big overstride of 12+ ". He has very little lift to his trot which is perfect for endurance. He has done well in endurance. Sound all the time. Great attitude all the time. I wish I could be sound all the time. sigh. This horse is also a super easy keeper, eats everything all the time, never picky, wants to try new stuff.

Color aside, more should have these crabbets - jmo. They are little sherman tanks and the other part is mt goat.

Not sure how to post a picture, so guess I won't.

Still think it is freaky that the sire and dam got together to make Shama. Barn accident? Whatever, it worked.

Oh my gosh don't you LOVE your solstice? I ride in a Rubicon, I will never get rid of that saddle and will never switch brands!

Your pony sounds great, wish we could see pics!!

rmh_rider
Nov. 13, 2009, 08:12 AM
How is the Rubicon different than the Solstice?

Yeah, I like it alot. I have had it since 2002. I had been looking for a change of a saddle, and tried several BM saddles none fit. And that would be that none fit on my Rocky Filly, already know the don't fit my arab. That breed is stocky. She fits really well in the wide Solstice, and so does my arab. So I give up.

Not looking for saddle suggestions. Sorry. They don't fit because they pinch both in the withers, and of course on my arab they are too long. Sorry I don't believe in padding them up with a fancy pad, it is the princess and the pea with pads.

I keep suggesting the Solstice on other gaited horses. It is wide enough to accommodate their front ends, or narrow if your horse is a different shape. Very secure, very comfy, so somebody could ride if they need that security. I guess that is another thread on saddles.

Not sure how to post a picture. Clues?

AHorseoffCourse
Nov. 16, 2009, 05:02 PM
I too ride in a solstice - absolutely ADORE it. Did 68 miles (pulled at Foresthill) in it at Tevis and wasn't sore - even witout a cover on it.

BTW, if anyone wants to take a look - here's teh pedigree of my girl:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tkr+triforta

Romantic Rider
Nov. 16, 2009, 10:58 PM
Here's my new girl, (new as of May)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nadia+bint+najib

What do you think? Only done one ride so far, so not much of a record yet. We call her Cheeks, guess why. ;) I should try to find a picture, it would save me a thousand words. :lol:

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 17, 2009, 10:30 AM
Here's my new girl, (new as of May)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nadia+bint+najib

What do you think? Only done one ride so far, so not much of a record yet. We call her Cheeks, guess why. ;) I should try to find a picture, it would save me a thousand words. :lol:

Nice Egyption pedigree! I'll bet she's stunning!

Gatorsgirl
Nov. 17, 2009, 12:23 PM
Here's my boy's pedigree...

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rs+renegade

What'd ya' think?

I'm going to go back and read through to see some of the others. :) This is a neat idea.

Gatorsgirl
Nov. 17, 2009, 12:37 PM
Oh, by the way on the OT about saddles - I just got a Rubicon and LOOOOOOVE it. My boy needed and X-wide, I was riding in a ASC Wide Elan - started pinching him. Love the Rubicon.

Kyzteke
Nov. 17, 2009, 02:25 PM
Well, I sure can't argue about your mare's bloodlines -- I have 3 Belesemo mares that I bought from Kim last year to breed to Kinor. I looks like two are in foal.

This one:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belesema+harmony
Her pics:
http://pets.webshots.com/album/575496905IOsLQq

[ From Eddy's Mom] Oh girl, you KNOW I've been drooling over those girls for sale. I would buy Harmony in a second if she wasn't in foal, and would take the flaxen filly if she was a couple years older!! Love those girls!....

So frustrating for me -- so far I've had THREE people that said they would snatch Harmony up in a second if she wasn't pregnant! All were endurance riders who know the Belesemo horses and their success rate, and they were familiar with Harmony's sire, BA Fantazion, who won the AERC Jim Jones award one year & was 3rd another year. His babies are in big demand because of their easy-going temperament and good engines.

Harmony is a typical "Zoni" daughter, so I've had afew people ask about her, but they want to get riding NOW and she's not due to foal till May '10.

Then I had another guy who is really just interested in the foal - he wants to breed heavyweight endurance horses and knows that Tekes (and certainly Kinor) usually add height, bone & improve the gaits. Kinor has done this with every foal he's produced -- make the trot stronger & smoother, while he totally improves the canter, which I often find is the weakest of the gaits in many Arabs.

But he wasn't too interested in Harmony because he thought she'd be too small (she is alittle over 15hh)! But apparently this guy weighs, like 230lbs!

Ah, if hindsight were only 20/20.

Personally I think the baby is going to be awesome -- look at some of the foals sired by Kinor o/o Arab mares:

http://pets.webshots.com/album/575234030qKeWcn

And Harmony is such a cupcake -- she is one of those horses that is pretty much born broke and will be a kid's type of horse once she has afew more years under her belt (halter?).

Even though Kinor is gone now, it is really encouraging that two fairly successful endurance riders either have Kinor/Arab foals (Mel Hare now owns CCR Kajun Bey) or have their mares bred to him (Kerry Lee Redente bred Kajun & Kyra and has Kajun's dam back in foal for 2010). I'd like to se them do well, so that Kinor will have left some sort of legacy.

It's a really cool cross, and with Kinor, the palomino/buckskin color was just icing on the cake. What as shame I lost him so young...

Kyzteke
Nov. 18, 2009, 06:16 AM
OK -- as some of you might know, I also breed warmbloods, and I have this guy going well:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mygelding

He's about 16.3hh, but very mellow, sound and loves the trail. How do you think he would do in endurance? I don't have any pics of him, but here is a pic of his half-sister (same sire).

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2353595170066919902tRqbnd

I'd like to hear your honest opinions -- I won't be offended.

rmh_rider
Nov. 18, 2009, 08:15 AM
Romantic Rider,


LOVE your new girls pedigree. Somebody else had a straight egyptian also they just got. Both are wow! Wow can't believe finally the breeders are letting go of some of their fantastic egyptian stock. Bout time! They are fabulous for endurance riding. They need to be out there, nice that they are selling some of their stock so it can be represented in the endurance world. Would love to see a picture of her. She has some of the most famous sires in her background, and it appears some nice line breeding too back there. Good luck with her!


rmh_rider

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 18, 2009, 11:55 AM
Kyzteke- I wouldn't feel bad that you bred that mare. I think the arab/teke crosses are AMAZING, I just have no desire to raise a foal. Harmony sounds awesome. My mare is similar, although she is a SPOOK under saddle. It's actually pretty funny and keeps me on my toes ;-) I hope you keep her around long enough to see the foal, I'll be it will be amazing!

As far as your warmblood, *I* personally would not be interested, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be. It would be perfect if he went to a home that wanted to cross-train, do some dressage/jumping and LD's on the side. I think warmbloods *can* do ok, but will always have to be managed at a ride more carefully than a lighter breed. They also tend to hit the ground harder therefore causing more wear and tear on the legs. His sister has great bone and straight legs!

There is always going to be someone out there who wants a horse that can do several different things. Strictly for endurance, I am not sure if he'd sell marketed that way. Would love to see pics of him!

cnigh
Nov. 18, 2009, 01:31 PM
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/shamalee+bakkir

Bakkir is a 2008 PB Straight Egyptian stud colt

I now know his pedigree is a good one, but that was just luck. When I saw him I just had to have him - simple as that. He arrived Sunday as is the sweetest little guy. I'm having tons of fun with him.

I would love to know if he has any Endurance horses in his lines.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/cnigh_2008/ShamaleeBakkir-HeadShot2009.jpg

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/cnigh_2008/securedownloadCAMIO7JZ.jpg

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/cnigh_2008/securedownloadCA2GRHHZ-1.jpg

Romantic Rider
Nov. 18, 2009, 03:45 PM
Thanks. :) Cheeks is a looker all right, and she knows it too. She got two top tens in halter at the Egyptian Event as a three yr. old. Of course that does her no good in endurance, but she is gorgeous. But she's really compact and a little chubby right now. I have never seen a horse with more personality and attitude -- talk about an in-your-pocket kind of horse. Soooooo smart, and she knows that I think she's the most adorable thing on earth. She's very balanced and athletic, which is a relief because we have her half brother and he's the biggest clutz on earth, it's really weird. Right now we just have her on a free lease with option to buy. So I really, really hope she works out. I don't know if I could send her back now even if she doesn't work out, but she'd be a kind of expensive trail horse. :)

prudence
Nov. 19, 2009, 12:57 AM
Kyzteke's boy was actually my Duncan - born in 1983 rather than 2003, with an endurance record that started in 2003 when he was 20. Duncan's AERC record is here: http://www.doublejoy.com/erol/Individual/HorseHistory.asp (type in, "Duncan" and he is the second one)

I've written about this horse before so you don't need continue if you already read this story! Duncan was 16.3 or 17 hands and a dark bay Hanoverian. I got so I didn't check Duncan's pulse when entering a vet check since he was always recovered by the time the checker walked over. He actually had a big heart murmur - the "swish" was notable - but it made no difference. The only reasons for his DNFs were those of his poor rider - moi - who didn't do things right always and got sick or held up. Only one of his pulls was due to him - a stone bruise obtained crossing a rocky mountain stream. Sometimes he got low marks on impulsion and the comment, "looks tired," but once we got out of the vet check and onto the trail there was no hiding his excitement. Again, I was his limiting factor. Duncan really came into his own trucking up long steep ascents, getting stronger as he pushed up the hills and mountains in this part of California.

Duncan's younger brother had fantastic recoveries as well. Unlike Duncan who had been trained to Intermediare I, Monty was baby green when we started him on trails. He got fitter without getting more trained which was scary, plus I don't think he had the same love for seeing what's around the corner. He now lives an arena life.

So keep an open mind about horse breeds, and age too. You might get surprised. My new horse is a half-Arab and I agree that if you are already crazy about the sport, Arabs are great. But don't overlook a horse you might already have and love to ride, particularly if you are just starting out.

Here are some pictures:

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/akatschi1/duncan/?albumview=slideshow

Kyzteke
Nov. 19, 2009, 06:01 AM
Kyzteke's boy was actually my Duncan - born in 1983 rather than 2003, with an endurance record that started in 2003 when he was 20. Duncan's AERC record is here: http://www.doublejoy.com/erol/Individual/HorseHistory.asp (type in, "Duncan" and he is the second one)

I've written about this horse before so you don't need continue if you already read this story! Duncan was 16.3 or 17 hands and a dark bay Hanoverian. I got so I didn't check Duncan's pulse when entering a vet check since he was always recovered by the time the checker walked over. He actually had a big heart murmur - the "swish" was notable - but it made no difference. The only reasons for his DNFs were those of his poor rider - moi - who didn't do things right always and got sick or held up. Only one of his pulls was due to him - a stone bruise obtained crossing a rocky mountain stream. Sometimes he got low marks on impulsion and the comment, "looks tired," but once we got out of the vet check and onto the trail there was no hiding his excitement. Again, I was his limiting factor. Duncan really came into his own trucking up long steep ascents, getting stronger as he pushed up the hills and mountains in this part of California.

Duncan's younger brother had fantastic recoveries as well. Unlike Duncan who had been trained to Intermediare I, Monty was baby green when we started him on trails. He got fitter without getting more trained which was scary, plus I don't think he had the same love for seeing what's around the corner. He now lives an arena life.

So keep an open mind about horse breeds, and age too. You might get surprised. My new horse is a half-Arab and I agree that if you are already crazy about the sport, Arabs are great. But don't overlook a horse you might already have and love to ride, particularly if you are just starting out.

Here are some pictures:

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/akatschi1/duncan/?albumview=slideshow

Thanks Prudence! Sorry about the subterfuge, but the original point of this thread was to see how much you could tell about the potential for endurance success just by looking at the pedigree. I remembered reading about Prudence's Duncan before, and quite honestly I was amazed that a 19-20 year old Diamont son (and Diamont was a total tank -- 17+ hands and looked like he should be pulling a beer wagon) could do this well in a sport like endurance!

Duncan had 650 AERC miles AFTER the age of 19 -- almost all of them 50's or 100's. And he even finished the Tevis (albeit overtime) when he was what? 22 yrs old? What a guy!

I was hoping more people who had proven endurance horses would post, because we don't know how well a horse will (or won't) do till they do (or don't) do it. I was also hoping some people who had horses they THOUGHT would do great but didn't would post...just as a learning experience for us all.

So thanks to Prudence for letting me use Duncan as a "ringer"...correct me if I'm wrong, but so far he has the best record of any poster's horse on this thread :D. And I never saw pics of him before...but lordy, he sure had that Diamont head, didn't he?

BTW, Prudence -- here is a pic of Duncan's niece (sort of). This filly is o/o the Diamont daughter I posted a photo of, and by Kinor. Since she's half Akhal Teke, & her dam's dam was a TB she is leaner, but heaven help us....she STILL has that Diamont head....

http://pets.webshots.com/slideshow/569009528JPXkaM

Incidently, the guy shown riding her is a beginning rider himself and Alborada only has about 60-90 days u/s so far (she just turned 3 this last summer)...they are already going out on the trail and everything! Ali's dam was the same way -- she would give you a kidney if you asked. Lovely temperament.

prudence
Nov. 19, 2009, 09:25 AM
Kyzteke, your Diamont daughter is Prudence's chestnut twin. I hope Prudence's foal is as nice as Alborada. I enjoyed your slideshow.

Duncan did not finish the Tevis - we were overtime at Deadwood and I did a voluntary pull the next year. They have cutoff times all along the way and we were late because earlier I was waiting for someone who eventually got pulled. You really have to move smartly to finish! The voluntary pull was to get a cut on his face sewn - he had fallen and cut himself. The vet duct-taped it together but he really needed some stitches to not have a scar. I know the vet was disappointed I pulled, maybe for all the reasons we are discussing here.

AZ Native
Nov. 19, 2009, 10:03 AM
Here is mine :

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/equus+s+prophecy2

I'll post pics and more info when I have some time.

Y'All have some really nice ponies !!

Kyzteke
Nov. 19, 2009, 10:46 AM
Here is mine :

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/equus+s+prophecy2

I'll post pics and more info when I have some time.

Y'All have some really nice ponies !!

I'm not as familiar with the Egyptian lines, but I see he has some lovely old CMK stuff back there...pretty close up for a modern horse (you don't often see Raffles on the pedigree of a horse these days).

This time I cheated and looked him up, but no AERC record -- does he compete under another name?

AZ Native
Nov. 19, 2009, 12:04 PM
I'm not as familiar with the Egyptian lines, but I see he has some lovely old CMK stuff back there...pretty close up for a modern horse (you don't often see Raffles on the pedigree of a horse these days).

This time I cheated and looked him up, but no AERC record -- does he compete under another name?



Sorry. I thought you were evaluating for endurance based on pedigree, but not having have HAD to have an AERC record. I have only competed him once in a LD , and that was way back in 01, so who knows if they have his record.he actually was in the top ten ( if i remember correctly ) , but he blew up after completeing the ride and hurt himself badly. He is the horse that drove me into NH as he had soo much baggage when I bought him. I put the competeing ( except a dressage show ) on hold to concentrate on helping him . He is a totally different horse now but I haven't gone back to endurance as of now. He was on the show circuit in AZ just before I bought him and pretty much mentallyand physically fried, then dumped off at a boys ranch, which needless to say , didn't work out so well for him or the boys. He is resposible for me becoming a pretty decent horseman in a relatively short time.He is a true 15 2 and i think , gorgeous even at 17. He is now pretty highly trained, moves correctly and can be ridden bareback and bridleless.:D I adore him !!
I'll find some pics.My apologies if i missed playing the game correctly.


Here is a picture after a roll so don't mind the dirt and winter coat, please:


http://picasaweb.google.com/lynn.stpeter/PeteyHoovesWeaverSaleFooferAndPetey21809#532130022 5139886226

Don't look at the yearling TK on the left.he was really going through the uglies ! Prophecy is the chesnut on the right. Actually, the TK is now a stunning 5 yr old ! Hard to believe !

http://picasaweb.google.com/lynn.stpeter/PeteyFarleigh1105#5405868094610413426

Okay,OT, but i posted a pic of the TK from last year in case you wanted to see the difference. WB's are amazing in that way !

http://picasaweb.google.com/lynn.stpeter/FarleighAndTweeterAt562209#5351308948818108674

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 19, 2009, 03:12 PM
Sorry I thought my two horses were proven? My mare has over 700 miles and my gelding is close to that. The mare has done 75's and a 100, will do more next year. The gelding has never done anything less than a 50. What do you consider proven?

whicker
Nov. 19, 2009, 04:05 PM
I have a newbie question. I don't have a premium coth account, so I don't know how to post photos.

I am having fits finding a saddle for my trak mare, Wren, who has an extraordinarily short back. About 12-13" from 2 fingers behind the withers to the last rib. I need a 17 1/2" seat. She also has a very forward girth groove and is quite wide in the barrel. She is also a very easy keeper, so we really need lots of exercise to slim her down.

I also have Jeannie Waldron's Topper, Rambo's full brother. They are crabbets and are still in work. Topper is now 25 years old. My mare isn't as wide across the top of the back as them, a bit more slope to the wither. Jeannie compares my mare to her Wonder Witch.

I want to use the saddle not only for trails in small mountains, (I am in the old dominion country) but also for low level dressage. I have a broken back, so I need to ride with a short stirrup and have lots of cushioning from shock. The twist would be a bit more on the narrow side. I am riding temporarily in one of Jeannie's free and easy saddles. I would LOVE to ride endurance, but I don't know if I can. It depends on the saddle and the horse.

My other mare, Ruby, is a Hanovarian by Donnerhall, grandfather is Rubinstein.
Both mares are about 15.1 or so. She has a more normal back, looks quite round. (Zaftig?)

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 19, 2009, 04:13 PM
I have a newbie question. I don't have a premium coth account, so I don't know how to post photos.

I am having fits finding a saddle for my trak mare, Wren, who has an extraordinarily short back. About 12-13" from 2 fingers behind the withers to the last rib. I need a 17 1/2" seat. She also has a very forward girth groove and is quite wide in the barrel. She is also a very easy keeper, so we really need lots of exercise to slim her down.

I also have Jeannie Waldron's Topper, Rambo's full brother. They are crabbets and are still in work. Topper is now 25 years old. My mare isn't as wide across the top of the back as them, a bit more slope to the wither. Jeannie compares my mare to her Wonder Witch.

I want to use the saddle not only for trails in small mountains, (I am in the old dominion country) but also for low level dressage. I have a broken back, so I need to ride with a short stirrup and have lots of cushioning from shock. The twist would be a bit more on the narrow side. I am riding temporarily in one of Jeannie's free and easy saddles. I would LOVE to ride endurance, but I don't know if I can. It depends on the saddle and the horse.

My other mare, Ruby, is a Hanovarian by Donnerhall, grandfather is Rubinstein.
Both mares are about 15.1 or so. She has a more normal back, looks quite round. (Zaftig?)


I would recommend you try out anything by the Arabian Saddle Company. You can get a demo to try. I have the Rubicon, but have also used the Solstice. You can use either for low-level dressage. http://www.arabiansaddle.com/

Gorgeous quality, very balanced and made for short-arab backs. You can often find a used model on www.endurance.net in the classified section.

whicker
Nov. 19, 2009, 04:23 PM
Thanks, Eddie's Mom.
I have been trying now for 2 years to find a saddle for us. The regular and custom dressage and english makers seem to have trouble coming up with a tree that works and then they can't fit me.

rmh_rider
Nov. 19, 2009, 04:29 PM
Saddles:

Ditto (again) what Eddy's Mom says.

They literally fit right out of the box!

And I have the Solstice. No buffy leather though on mine, it is smooth. Still very grippy in the seat. My arab has a short short short dippy back. He is shaped like a whiskey barrel, but does have some withers. It doesn't move forward or backwards.

On my Rocky filly, I could use a breast collar when on some hilly stuff. But she is stocky stocky, kinda a longer back.

I got an 18". But a 17.5" (I know, they don't make those) would be best but I use a sheepskin seat cover and it snugs it up nicely.

Very secure if you need that.

AZ Native nice lines on your horse. Nice balance of great old lines. Some of each are there, mostly egyp. The russian lines are really old and historical. Well all those lines are really old, which is a good thing.

Kyzteke
Nov. 19, 2009, 04:50 PM
Sorry I thought my two horses were proven? My mare has over 700 miles and my gelding is close to that. The mare has done 75's and a 100, will do more next year. The gelding has never done anything less than a 50. What do you consider proven?

You are totally right -- it seems I apparently have no memory of anything that happened more than 1 page ago :(

What can I say? I'm old:confused::yes:

"Proven" is a tough one because when IS an endurance horse proven?

So I would ask others what they consider "proven."

For me, I guess it would be a horse that has been competing for at least 2-3 years, has a high completion rate (say 85%?), is doing all 50's & 100's except for maybe the first year.

As for total number of miles for a "proven" horse -- I dunno. I suppose if a horse has done 4-5 50's or 100's each year for 2-4 years, that would be pretty darn "proven" wouldn't you?

And yes Eddy's Mom, I would most definitely consider your horses "proven" as I would Prudence's Duncan.

Also the first horse I posted "Bountiful Prince." Actually I guess he is the MOST proven, since he's done something like 1800 miles this year alone and hasn't been pulled yet.

Absolutely masterful training & riding...plus a good dollop of luck.

It seems like the others are just prospects and time will tell....

I was hoping we could compare pedigree to success as an endurance horse, but we sort of got derailed....

Romantic Rider
Nov. 19, 2009, 11:12 PM
Okay, I posted my new girl's pedigree because I'm kind of proud of it myself. Here are my real endurance horses. One is successful, one is not, but they both have some miles under their belts. Guess which is proven. ;)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pasha+astra

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/emry+jordan

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 19, 2009, 11:25 PM
Okay, I posted my new girl's pedigree because I'm kind of proud of it myself. Here are my real endurance horses. One is successful, one is not, but they both have some miles under their belts. Guess which is proven. ;)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pasha+astra

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/emry+jordan

I'm gonna have to guess your purebred, but I always could be wrong!

prudence
Nov. 19, 2009, 11:35 PM
...And I will guess the Anglo-Arab because she's older!

Very different bloodlines; the Anglo has beautiful Egyptians including Ansata Ibn Halima; the purebred has one of my favorite horses - Trypolis. They don't come much more perfect than Trypolis.

Pictures!

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 19, 2009, 11:40 PM
...And I will guess the Anglo-Arab because she's older!

Very different bloodlines; the Anglo has beautiful Egyptians including Ansata Ibn Halima; the purebred has one of my favorite horses - Trypolis. They don't come much more perfect than Trypolis.

Pictures!

Lol! I didn't even look at ages. Duh!

Kyzteke
Nov. 20, 2009, 09:49 AM
Okay, I posted my new girl's pedigree because I'm kind of proud of it myself. Here are my real endurance horses. One is successful, one is not, but they both have some miles under their belts. Guess which is proven. ;)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pasha+astra

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/emry+jordan

I wish the TB side of the Anglo was complete -- I actually know my TB blood lines better than Egyptian Arab! In fact, I know very little about the Egyptian lines except the big names. I'd love to be educated.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go with the Anglo based purely on the fact I love TBs.

Also, I've seen enough PB Arabs "wash" out at the sport to know it's more important to pick the horse rather than the pedigree.

Kyzteke
Nov. 20, 2009, 09:52 AM
the purebred has one of my favorite horses - Trypolis. They don't come much more perfect than Trypolis.

Prudence -- what do you like about Trypolis so much?

Eddy's Mom
Nov. 20, 2009, 10:09 AM
Also, I've seen enough PB Arabs "wash" out at the sport to know it's more important to pick the horse rather than the pedigree.

Totally true.

However, I have a thought to run by you guys and would really be interested to hear what your thoughts on this are.

I have ridden numerous purebreds. I have conditioned many, as well. I have limited experience in half-arabs, but have ridden and been around quite a few. Honestly, in my opinion, the half-arabs do not come to or keep their conditioning levels like purebreds. Therefore, more riding is required, and a higher likelihood of breaking down because of the excess miles. I do not condition hardly at all after my endurance season starts. My horses get two weeks off after a fifty, and up to six weeks after a long multiday. It is amazing how much better my purebred holds her conditioning than my NSH. I don't think this would necessarily be true for lighter built horses such as the Tekes, but certainly seems like it would hold for heavier builds (QH's, Morgans, WB's, etc).

Just wondering what you guys thought...

AZ Native
Nov. 20, 2009, 10:34 AM
.

I was hoping we could compare pedigree to success as an endurance horse, but we sort of got derailed....



Right.Sorry if i contributed to the derailing ;) My horse's bloodlines are perfectly fine for endurance, as far as I know. I have ridden him many , many miles. He stays sound ( barefoot ) will eat and drink anywhere and has a huge , ground covering trot. I bought him as an endurance, dressage prospect and I got side tracked from the competitive endurance aspect of riding. A client of ours is an FEI competitor that i talk about riding with and just haven't gotten around to it. I'm not sure I want to do 50's anymore, but even at 17 i know I have a super nice prospect :) if i decide to jump in again.

Romantic Rider
Nov. 20, 2009, 02:34 PM
Those who guessed the Anglo are right. I've only had her for three years, but she's been doing this sport for a long time and has about 2000 miles on her. She's a terrific 50 mile horse, mostly top tens, some 1st's and BC's, and we did our first 100 last year. Here she is, all 15.3 hands of her.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/uberbabeforever/horse%20pics/PashaMR3.jpg
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/uberbabeforever/horse%20pics/PashaMR2.jpg
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/uberbabeforever/horse%20pics/PashaMR1.jpg


The Arab mare is 14.2 and she wouldn't stay sound, even though she sure tries her heart out, so I retired her after a couple of seasons of LD's. I think part of the problem is that I got her when she was 4, before I was doing endurance, just because I wanted an Arab, and she had only been kept in a very tiny pasture and never had a thing done with her and was so thin and neglected. I don't think she developed like she should have.

prudence
Nov. 20, 2009, 03:13 PM
RR, your Anglo-Arab mare is stunning. How's her trot to ride?

I like Trypolis both because of his progeny (Mohacz and Ardahan) and his conformation - from PICTURES mind you since although I am as old as dirt I wasn't around when he was. His neck was long and nicely placed, shoulder sloped, topline all you could want with a short back and powerful hindquarters. His pasterns look to be a little long maybe but that makes for an elastic ride. Not too typey; he was a race horse and looked it.

I didn't condition Duncan after the first spring when we got our boys in shape for the first time. We did pleasure rides and endurance. We took Duncan and 24 yr old Spotty out of pasture and started conditioning Valentine's Day, did our first 25 two months later and our first 50 a few weeks after that. Later I started with a slow LD in the spring and then did fifties, sometimes riding the day after one at the lake for a nice stretch for him and me.

Spot's another story: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/wilton+spots
He was a speed jumper in his youth and even at his advanced age always thought an endurance ride was a great opportunity to race. His pulse would be through the roof at the start. Even at 30 he's still one hot horse. I think his pulse didn't reflect his fitness since he was so excitable. But you can't really separate out the two factors at vet checks.

Romantic Rider
Nov. 20, 2009, 05:16 PM
Thanks Prudence. She's even more gorgeous in action -- her trot has a TON of suspension, so it's a bit of work to ride. She can't do much better than 10-11 mph. at a trot, but it's so big and powerful and effortless looking, I always get great comments from the vets on her trot outs. Even at a working trot she looks like she's floating, and her canter is pure heaven. Maybe the suspension is not ideal for an endurance horse, but she does well enough. :) But OMG is she a handful, and I've never ridden a horse that could spook like she does. :eek:

Kyzteke
Nov. 21, 2009, 10:17 AM
Those who guessed the Anglo are right. I've only had her for three years, but she's been doing this sport for a long time and has about 2000 miles on her. She's a terrific 50 mile horse, mostly top tens, some 1st's and BC's, and we did our first 100 last year. Here she is, all 15.3 hands of her.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/uberbabeforever/horse%20pics/PashaMR3.jpg
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/uberbabeforever/horse%20pics/PashaMR2.jpg
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/uberbabeforever/horse%20pics/PashaMR1.jpg


The Arab mare is 14.2 and she wouldn't stay sound, even though she sure tries her heart out, so I retired her after a couple of seasons of LD's. I think part of the problem is that I got her when she was 4, before I was doing endurance, just because I wanted an Arab, and she had only been kept in a very tiny pasture and never had a thing done with her and was so thin and neglected. I don't think she developed like she should have.

RR -- see THIS is sort of what I had in mind when I started this thread. It's great to look at a pedigree, but it doesn't always tell the tale. I was hoping someone would post pedigrees of horses that "look good on paper" (or for that matter, look bad on paper :winkgrin:), either because of their bloodlines, breed, etc. and we could try to guess how they ended up doing in endurance. But so many people don't want to say -- "yeah, this one washed out...".

You AA mare is lovely, and I'm not surprised she has a great deal of suspension -- look at those pasterns!

See, this is exactly what I mean. If I was evaluating this mare just from a pic, I would pick out those pasterns as a potential problem, but apparently they aren't. Yet it was the Arab mare that couldn't stay sound....

Has she (the AA) had any soundness issues?

I remember reading somewhere that a well-known 100 miler held a clinic on evaluating the endurance horse and had the participants look at 10+ horses and grade them in order of which one they would take. They didn't know the name of any of the horses. Almost every single participant ranked this one little gelding last, or close to last. I think he had a funny shaped front leg or something. Turns out that was Valerie Kanavy's horse, Cash.

Just goes to show...

Romantic Rider
Nov. 21, 2009, 06:02 PM
Up until this May the answer would have been a very resounding "no". The first two years I competed her she never took a lame step. I competed about 500 miles per year, and they were some pretty tough miles and she stayed incredibly sound. Then, this May, after two of the best rides she has ever had, she got a minor tear in her superficial flexor tendon and has had the rest of the season off. So yeah, that was really disappointing, especially since she was in the best condition she's ever been in. Like I said, up until this May I wouldn't have said her pasterns were a problem, now who knows. I've been riding her lightly late this fall, and she feels really good. Now she'll get the long winter off, and I'll bring her back slow next spring and hopefully keep competing her.