Do Palomino's Fade?

[Nanerpus]

My 7 year old pony was a rich, dark palomino last summer and into winter (first year I had her). This was her then:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32363750&l=7836166596&id=13002359

This summer, pretty dark but not dappled:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32806006&l=c73bdd0807&id=13002359

Winter Coat is now in, and she is totally faded and looks so light to me - nothing like she did last summer! Do Palomino's fade when they age?

Current Winter Coat In:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33143854&l=c2925d33b7&id=13002359

Hope those links work. They are public.

[goodhors]

Our yellow horses tended to get lighter with winter hair, in snow country. Nice gold for summer, almost butter color in winter.

The one horse we could pluck the light hair, giving her the appearance of dapples in spring. She did dapple when worked regularly, kept conditioned for doing driving miles.

The other, dam to above horse, always had some dapples in summer. They showed better if she was on night turnout and worked hard to keep her fit. Yellow horses often fade easily in strong sunlight of summer days.

I do believe most dapples get more noticable if horse is kept in rather hard work. Folks now say dapples are related to circulation and cooling the body. Our bay horses really dapple up when they work hard and regularly, get sweaty often.

[JB]

Palis tend to have dark(er, sometimes VERY dark) Summer coats and light(er) Winter coats. It's just a trademark of that color :)

They can literally go from pale cream in the Winter to rich caramel in the Summer.

[unbridledoaks]

Ours do! Our stallion is very dark in the summer, then when his winter coat comes in, he is very pale. I have a filly who is dark in the winter and will lighten up in the summer, wierd, I know. Never had one do the reverse before. Feed can change their color also.

[bludejavu]

I've owned Palomino Saddlebreds that had varying degrees of pigment to their coats. Many will lighten in the winter but a true palomino (true = a coat that is the color of new pennies) will not lighten in the winter or sun bleach in the summer. I've only owned one true palomino and the rest of mine were palominos lacking in full pigmentation.

This is my true palomino - he never faded in winter but would dapple beautifully. http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/members/bludejavu-albums-farm++family-picture13685-saddlebred-casey-in-front-pasture.html

[Flipper]

My big boy is darker in summer, & pale w/ dapples in winter. Interesting @ the relationship of dapples to circulation. Never heard that before. I'd always thought it had something to do with nutrition - like adding fat to the diet increased dappling.... At any rate, I love the dapples, but sure miss that nice summery dark copper color!

[MistyBlue]

Only "palomino" that I ever knew that didn't get really pale in a winter coat was actually a silver dapple. And that one did still lighten up a bit.
I've known a couple to get pretty much white in winter and be gold to dark caramel in summer.
Those are some pretty impressive dapples on your palomino though.

[JB]

Many will lighten in the winter but a true palomino (true = a coat that is the color of new pennies) will not lighten in the winter or sun bleach in the summer. I've only owned one true palomino and the rest of mine were palominos lacking in full pigmentation.
That's like saying a fading black isn't a true black ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by "true palomino" being the color of a new penny. There are thousands of genetically palomino horses who are very, very light - they are called Isabella palominos. There are palis who also have sooty and are quite dark. Morgans are known for having "black" palominos. Most palis are "yellow", not copper-colored.

[JB]

Re: dappling - it's genetic.

Changes of coats can bring out dapples. Proper nutrition on a previously under-nourished horse can bring out dapples, but only if the genetics are there. Even unhealthy horses can have dapples if the rest of the conditions are right.

[bludejavu]

That's like saying a fading black isn't a true black ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by "true palomino" being the color of a new penny. There are thousands of genetically palomino horses who are very, very light - they are called Isabella palominos. There are palis who also have sooty and are quite dark. Morgans are known for having "black" palominos. Most palis are "yellow", not copper-colored.

Actually if you study the black Tennessee Walker's, there is a black that will not fade. It's not as prevalent in other breeds but I have owned a black mare that didn't fade or sun bleach. Since she's the only black horse I've ever had, I can't comment on other blacks fading except to say I've seen some that had rust coloring on the end of their hair follicles after exposure to a lot of sun.

But Palominos I've definitely owned and can comment as to what I've seen and been told by a few color authorities. Here's a link to the Palomino Horse Registry which also states that the "ideal" is a horse the color of a gold coin http://www.palominohorseassoc.com/history.htm . When I stated "true palomino" in my prior post, I guess I should have used the word "ideal" - sorry to confuse you.

I did not state that lighter colored palominos were not palominos, only that they lacked as much color pigmentation. I have owned a very light palomino gelding who would turn almost white if left out in the sun. During show season, he was kept sheeted and out of the sun if I wanted any color at all. He was still registered as a palomino because he fit the coloring criteria despite his lite color.

[JB]

There's a black in all breeds that doesn't fade :) Friesians have many. Percheron's too. But a horse can be homozygous black and fade, and can be heterozygous black and not fade. The issue of fading is independent of the horse being genetically black (or palomino). Or bay or chestnut or brown :)

The PHR is not a place to rely on for color genetics. Neither is the APHA for that matter ;) They have defined THEIR ideal for the palomino color. Not "the" ideal - theirs.

You're right about the pigmentation - a copper-colored pali has more than an Isabella. That doesn't tie to fading though, as each color can bleach from the sun, or have different natural shades based on the Winter vs Summer coat. Or not :)

[bludejavu]

The PHR is not a place to rely on for color genetics. Neither is the APHA for that matter ;) They have defined THEIR ideal for the palomino color. Not "the" ideal - theirs.



Many registries are not totally in sync with color genetics research because it changes or updates every time the wind blows. I've heard and read so much differing information from color genetics authorities that it gets laughable. As far as what is ideal for palominos, for 45+ years of my life (yea I'm old), the new penny/gold coin color has been the ideal for the majority of golden palomino admirers - I'm one of them :yes:.

[JB]

"Ideal" when it comes to color is in the eye of the beholder. Very subjective.

There hasn't been any new discoveries in the basics of horse color genetics in years. Black is black, chestnut is chestnut, palomino is palomino, bay is bay. New on the scene is the genetics behind brown, with theories about wild bay. The JC has zero reason to still be calling gray TBs "roan". They only recently started recognizing palominos as a separate color - they still don't recognize buckskin. They have no excuse of "changes or updates every time the wind blows" ;)

The APHA is a laugh when it comes to both color and pattern genetics, because it's based on whatever they want, genetics be darned.

[bludejavu]

Do Palomino's fade when they age?



Some can. We boarded a golden Saddlebred retiree for 12 years until his demise. Here he is in his show days, about age 14 or so. http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/members/bludejavu-albums-farm++family-picture20662-sport-driving.html)

And here he is the year he was euthanized (age 32). His winter coat became lighter and lighter every year. http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/members/bludejavu-albums-farm++family-picture21862-sport-full-winter-coat.html

Here's my personal gelding with his winter coat in either January or February of last year - lots of dapples - no fading (age 20). http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/members/bludejavu-albums-farm++family-picture21861-casey-full-winter-coat.html

[Nanerpus]

Very interesting, thanks for all the information!

I guess I'm just confused and my question came about because her winter coat was so dark/dappled last winter, and this year her summer coat was slightly less dappled than regular, and now her winter coat is SO light, it made me wonder if it's something that happens as they age.

Her baby is and always has been a light cream color, if that makes any difference. This is him (he's the light one! haha)

file:///Users/Dan/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2009/Jul%208,%202009/IMG_0985.JPG

That link might work. I've never tried uploading it like that.