One of those WWYD threads.

[stolensilver]

I'm having one of those "what to do?" moments. I've got a lovely mare who has worked hard and stayed sound all her life. She's jumped 5'6" and competed in dressage to PSG level. She gallops and stays all day. I've posted about this mare before but have moved a little further with my thinking and would really appreciate your thoughts.

Currently she's in foal to Silvermoon to hopefully produce a dressage baby for me. What I can't decide is what to do next year when she'll be 17. If I bred her again the foal would have to be for sale and the market over here is very flat. Superbly bred foals are not selling. Elite graded foals are not selling easily even for discounted prices.

My mare is not fashionably bred but she does have a good solid pedigree. She's Irish Draught x TB.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stolen+silver

Her sire is full brother to Grey Macha, a fairly well known Irish stallion who sired show horses and show jumpers. Her damsire Top Star was the sire of at least one international showjumper (Sanyo Olympic Video) and several intermediate/advanced eventers. The female line contains Big Game who was in Welton Apollo's pedigree 4x3. Welton Apollo was an advanced eventer who was placed at Badminton and sired literally dozens of international eventers. Big Game is also the damsire of Pericles.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/welton+apollo
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?p=10240937


So if she was yours what would you do next year? Would you breed from her again and if you did what sort of foal would you try to breed? My only criteria for a stallion are that they must be linebred in order to limit the scatter of her diverse pedigree and of course be sound and have a good temperament.

So if I was looking to breed a jumper I was thinking of something like Linton as I like his technique over a fence and his pedigree but I have never met him in real life so know nothing about his temperament. The reason I like this horse's pedigree is that he brings in an echo of my mare's bloodlines through Arctic Star which would be 6x4 in the offspring. He's also linebred which is something I want.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=linton&x=0&y=0

Or I could try to breed an eventer but selling eventers as foals seems to be difficult. Mind you selling jumpers as foals seems to be difficult too! If I went down this route I like the idea of Up With the Lark who is a Welton Apollo son and an advanced eventer in his own right.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=UP+WITH+THE+LARK&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10478529&damid=10451797

Or I could try to breed for dressage again but I'm not sure if dressage people would be interested in a dressage foal out of an Irish mare?

Or I could bring her back into work.

What would you do bearing in mind any foal would have to be for sale?

[stoicfish]

She sounds great! Why not lease her out to a young person to take advantage of her training/abilities?
It also sounds like you feel you should bred her, or are wondering if the foal would be desirable. In that case, you could offer her up for custom breeding, or lease her out as a broodmare. That would increase the chance the foal had a home before you started.
They just had a foal sale in my area, and the prices were horrible and there was some nice horses, most didn't sell. If I couldn't keep the foal and had to sell, I would be scared that I would end up putting the foal (who I probably lost money on) in a substandard home that would not train it right. Then it would be another large horse with behavior issues going to the dog food plant.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I think you should ship her to me and I'll ride her. She sounds like a blast.

I like stoicfish's ideas.

[stolensilver]

You know I've lost count of the number of people who have offered to have this horse to ride! Isn't it odd that the sort of horse that everyone wants to ride is not considered a top broodmare prospect?! Why is that? Shouldn't trainable, sound mares who have competed to a high level be the ones we breed from?

[omare]

She sounds lovely. Linton is gorgeous. I would bred her for a jumper with her jumping talent.

I have thought myself that I should use an inbred/line bred jumper stallion because I too have hybrid mares. I had thought for myself the holsteiners bred stallions (regardless of what stud book they are resgistered with) tend to be inbred so they would be my best option.

I understand Calido makes elegant horses--maybe where Linton gets some of his good looks?

[stolensilver]

Thankyou for your reply omare. :) Linton does look nice doesn't he? I'm just unsure what to do because of having to sell a foal if I bred one. I suppose my mare's pedigree shouts "eventer" if she's put to a TB, maybe that's what I should try to breed as then there wouldn't be a mismatch in expectations between the pedigree and the outcome?

Its very strange how different the decision making process is when thinking about breeding to sell rather than breeding to keep.

[pintopiaffe]

You know I've lost count of the number of people who have offered to have this horse to ride! Isn't it odd that the sort of horse that everyone wants to ride is not considered a top broodmare prospect?! Why is that? Shouldn't trainable, sound mares who have competed to a high level be the ones we breed from?

ABSOLUTELY!!! And I squirm many times at the "this young mare is lame, so I'm going to breed her" threads... of course there are different types of lameness and injury...

But to my mind, a sound, sane, talented mare is THE ONE to breed. One that's held up to *work*...

I guess I'm not sure where "over here" is, I'm extrapolating it's not the states. Irish breds are getting more popular here.

If she has the one foal, yes, your odds of getting her pregnant go down a bit, but 17 is not old at all... there's no reason she could not be used for a couple-three more years then try breeding again, if you're uncertain of the market right now.

A broodie lease or custom foal is also a great way of going...

I don't have advice as to stallions or direction (jumping vs. dressage) but had to comment on the successful working mare as mom. ;)

[stoicfish]

If I bred her again the foal would have to be for sale and the market over here is very flat. Superbly bred foals are not selling. Elite graded foals are not selling easily even for discounted prices.

My mare is not fashionably bred but she does have a good solid pedigree.

Or I could try to breed an eventer but selling eventers as foals seems to be difficult. Mind you selling jumpers as foals seems to be difficult too!
Or I could try to breed for dressage again but I'm not sure if dressage people would be interested in a dressage foal out of an Irish mare?

Or I could bring her back into work.

What would you do bearing in mind any foal would have to be for sale?

My suggestion was based on the information you provided. Would I want to buy a foal from a horse like yours - if she can throw anything like herself, absolutely. But as you stated the market is flat, it is here too. The suggestions were to deal with the market, not the quality of mare. Not sure why you assumed that this was a comment on the eligibility of your horse as a successful broodmare, or if a mare like yours should be bred.
There is a reason people breed trendy horse lines-foals are easier to sell. Your foal might sell for huge amounts once it is under saddle. There are many people on this board that breed excellent horses, but keep them until the performance based market (riders) can see their talent. This is how you described your horse, talented without the trendy lines, but you don't want to keep the foal.
Either way good luck, I’m sure it will be a lovely foal if that is your choice.

[Ride4Life]

Oooh, the mare sounds very nice! I think that she's exactly the type of mare that should be bred.

I don't know about your resell prospects as the market IS bad and I know many people leaving mares open. But if you do choose to breed what about:

Jaguar mail - for a jumper or eventer! http://www.frenchstallions.org/stallions/jaguar-mail/2007009.html He is mostly TB so gives you the refinement & speed that you want but he's got that lovely Alme Z blood & french damline too. Gives you linebreeding, but nothing closer than the 5th generation, you would get:
Nearco - 4 crosses in 5th - 8th generation
Pharos - 5 crosses in the 6th - 9th gen
Also multiple crosses to Son in Law, Blandford, Phalaris, Spearmint, The Tetrarch, Selene, etc.

[stolensilver]

Hi Stoicfish, my comment wasn't aimed at you, it was more thinking out loud. I think most people would agree that if this mare was (for example) by Ampere out of a Quaterback mare with exactly the same competition record people would be falling over themselves to breed from her. And I'm just wondering if we've got this right? Neither Quaterback nor Ampere are proven in competition yet. Quaterback is old enough to be out competing at PSG but he is not. Maybe like Sandro Hit he's so popular he doesn't need to compete to get big mare books?

To try to illustrate the point further my other mare is the highest scoring 3yo dressage horse in the UK. So far she's proven nothing under saddle, hasn't proven her trainbility or her soundness yet. She hasn't done anything wrong either, but she's only 3 years old so there's a limit to what she has achieved right now. Yet she has fairly well known warmblood bloodlines. I think most breeders and buyers would consider her a better broodmare prospect than the older mare and her foals would probably be more saleable. Do you see what I mean? One mare has proven her talent, soundness and trainability. I'm sure she'd have got to GP if we'd started doing dressage before she was 9 years old. The other one has shown that she moves well in hand but has everything else yet to prove. Yet the younger one with the "right" pedigree is valued more highly than the proven competition horse. It just doesn't seem logical somehow.

[Marengo]

Hey StolenSilver,

If you really like this mare and you've bred her now for a dream foal for yourself I would breed her one more time to your stallion choice Silvermoon.

There's so many things that can go wrong between conception and backing a young horse. The foal you've bred may get a career ending injured as 2 yr old, so many things can go wrong. If I was breeding my dream foal I would hedge my bets and breed twice.

With the market being the way it is, even if you chose a very marketable stallion you still may have to keep the foal until its going under saddle. If you can afford to feed an extra mouth for a few years I would breed two prospects for yourself. In the event that you have two healthy, talented offspring from this mare you will be able to take your pick and sell the other one.

[stoicfish]

Hi Stoicfish, my comment wasn't aimed at you, it was more thinking out loud. I think most people would agree that if this mare was (for example) by Ampere out of a Quaterback mare with exactly the same competition record people would be falling over themselves to breed from her. And I'm just wondering if we've got this right? Neither Quaterback nor Ampere are proven in competition yet. Quaterback is old enough to be out competing at PSG but he is not. Maybe like Sandro Hit he's so popular he doesn't need to compete to get big mare books?

To try to illustrate the point further my other mare is the highest scoring 3yo dressage horse in the UK. So far she's proven nothing under saddle, hasn't proven her trainbility or her soundness yet. She hasn't done anything wrong either, but she's only 3 years old so there's a limit to what she has achieved right now. Yet she has fairly well known warmblood bloodlines. I think most breeders and buyers would consider her a better broodmare prospect than the older mare and her foals would probably be more saleable. Do you see what I mean? One mare has proven her talent, soundness and trainability. I'm sure she'd have got to GP if we'd started doing dressage before she was 9 years old. The other one has shown that she moves well in hand but has everything else yet to prove. Yet the younger one with the "right" pedigree is valued more highly than the proven competition horse. It just doesn't seem logical somehow.

I agree with you 110%!!
Don't like a lot of things about the horse business and many trends are very counter productive to quality. I would gladly take a Jaguar foal out of your mare if you can find a seat sale for the little guy! :D

p.s. There is the argument that quality lies in the genotype and that "well bred" horses are a better bet for passing on talent then proven horses with more unknown breeding. My thinking is the proven unknowns have at least half of there genes that are suited to sport as it has produced a successful phenotype.

[carolprudm]

Breed her to an Irish Draught and hope for a filly that could be graded RID or AID or whatever the IDHS/HSI/IHB is registering at the time.

There aren't many people on this board familiar with Irish Draughts and Irish Draught Sport Horses as so most of the responses are going to favor WB's. Homesick Angle, Kate Triplett is the only one i can think of.

I would go with a Grey Macha stallion, if there is one available in Ireland. There's one in the US

http://www.blackberryridgefarm.com/stallions/machabreeze.html


See my sig for a nice RIDSH:D