If you could breed your upper-level eventer to anyone... [Archive]

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confusedTB

Nov. 9, 2009, 07:25 PM

If money was not an option and you wanted a drool-worthy baby that could be a potential upper-level eventer, who would you breed to?

~~~~~~

I am a lurker coming out of the dark in need of a little *fun* help. Im very seriously considering breeding my mare this spring but I have absolutly no idea where to start. So I figured I would ask my favorite COTHs for any and all opinions. I put a little info about her below, but please feel free to post any stallions you would love to breed to. :)

The mare in question is a 16.1hh big-boned TB. She is in the oldenburg main mare book and has thrown 3 super nice babies for her previous owner. She competed 2 seasons of Intermediate, 3rd level dressage, 4' jumpers. She is a fantastic mover and put together really well. The main aspects I would like to enhance are her marish/unruley behavior (she is the b*tch of the barn) and have her baby be a bit braver on XC. She also has a bit of a weak/long back, so Im trying to stay away from anything that would add to that.

AppJumpr08

Nov. 9, 2009, 07:30 PM

I've heard wonderful things about Jumbo. But I'm not sure if semen is still available in the US. EMCO's page says they are sold out...

yellowbritches

Nov. 9, 2009, 07:37 PM

If I had a nice mare I think my top two choices would be Brandenburg's Windstar and Catherston Dazzler. I have been nothing but impressed with the Windstar babies I've seen (and there seems to be more and more every year) and he is proving to be a capable produce of upper level babies. Dazzler is a very, very proven sire of upper level kiddos. We actually have a client with 2 that were born this year. I've yet to get to see them in person (they live in SC, I live in MD), but judging by their pictures they should be nice (both mamas are very nice mares, but not nearly the resume that the mare in question has).

I don't really know how either would cross with your mare since I haven't paid THAT close of attention to those details (considering I don't have a mare to breed, I only admire and make a list for the imaginary mare). Both the ones I like have some who say their offspring can be difficult...although seems that almost equal number say they are just fine (and Windstar seems to have just as many babies running around with ammies as he does really nice UL babies, so I think that says something about the kind of temperament stamp he leaves). I don't know how true it is in either case or what that would do for a witchy mare attitude. But I think they are both worth having high on the list of ones to investigate further. :yes:

vineyridge

Nov. 9, 2009, 07:41 PM

I'd definitely consider this guy if you are interested in using frozen.
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=2878

His lines have produced mostly jumpers, but there are a few event horses and dressage horses, including one that was ridden by Anky van Grusven.

JER

Nov. 9, 2009, 07:55 PM

For a TB mare, I'd look at Catherston Dazzler, Jumbo and Fleetwater Opposition. They all have produced many, many, many UL horses from TB mares.

If you want a shorter-coupled horse, Catherston Dazzler and Fleetwater Opposition are more likely to produce that than Jumbo. With Jumbo, the offspring tend to be much more like the mare but with an excellent brain.

Catherston Dazzler really stamps his offspring -- if you like what you see in pics of his babies, that's what you'll be getting. And if you really do want to breed, you'll have to act quickly to get some CD semen as there's not much left and as he's going on 26, won't be re-frozen for the US.

I have a CD mare (his 1st North American foal) who is 7 and competing at Intermediate. She's a stunning horse and a genuinely friendly animal (she doesn't take after her mother in this aspect), just delightful to have around. I've got more semen in the freezer to breed some full siblings because I like this one so much.

I wouldn't recommend Brandenburg's Windstar. Life's too short.

GotSpots

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:08 PM

For temperament, I'd say A Fine Romance tends to throw one of the most consistently trainable, easy-going, amateur friendly personalities I've seen. We've had three AFRs in our barn who all went Preliminary or Intermediate and were all fabulous, dead-easy brains: straightforward in the barn, easy to be around, hack out on the buckle, yet still very very trainable and fun. I've handled or ridden or played with six other AFR youngsters and they were the same way. So while not a true representative sample, but good enough to be suggestive, at least in my book. All quite good movers, decent amount of scope.

I think Windstar can be a bit of a crapshoot - I've seen some absolutely lovely youngsters from him, and some that were a bit heavier than I tend to prefer, so I think he's one that the type of mare is critical. The ones I've seen were not necessarily my first choice for amateur rides, but they were all very very sweet animals with gorgeous movement.

I've only seen two Dazzler babies in person, but they were both lovely. I'm looking forward to seeing the early crops out of Formula One, who at least as an individual has alot that I'd look for in a stallion and I love the way he's put together. Will be very interesting to see what he throws. Alternately, if I was darn-the-consequences, it has to jump the moon, I'd look for something Babamist lines if I could find it.

But all of that's in isolation. I don't think one picks a stallion without very carefully considering the mare in question and what job in an ideal world you want the offspring to do, and then think about what the worst combination of those two would be like.

secretariat

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:12 PM

Sounds familiar! We bred Megan's 16'2" Intermediate mare to Windfall, and the match was perfect. He added trot, trainability, and good sense to Hailey's tremendous gallop and scope, resulting in a (now) 5-year old Anglo-Trakehner stallion, Nightfall. She also had a very long back, and Nightfall is perfectly balanced and compact. Hailey was also a b**ch, at times unrideable - we've cleaned out more than one warmup ring; Nightfall is unflappable, fears nothing, and as a stallion is handled routinely by kids and teenaged girls; most people don't realize he's a stallion. He LOVES attention, and his best shows are in electric atomospheres where he seems to "poof up" and say, look at me! In the wind and weather, flags, and big time atmosphere at Lamplight last year, he topped the 4 year old YEH class with elan for the blue ribbon! He won the Area VIII Beginner Novice Championship at Jump Start this year, and missed his gold medal at Beginner Novice by 0.5 points in only 5 starts. The Holekamps are super people to deal with, and I recommend Windfall without reservation. I'd be happy to post pix of Hailey and Nightfall for comparison if you're interested, and obviously Windfall pix are easy to come by. As Jo Whitehouse said at a Rolex breeding symposium a couple of years ago, "Nightfall is a carbon copy of his sire Windfall."

We also like Catherston Dazzler; we've got one of his in the oven for 2010 out of the dam of Megan's advanced horse, Widespread Panic. We're keeping our fingers crossed -- a known sire of multiple advanced horses, out of a proven advanced producer -- GULP!!!! Probably end up a trail horse, go figure! But she took on first breeding and we've got another dose in storage for next year as well.

Snapdragon

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:30 PM

I wouldn't recommend Brandenburg's Windstar. Life's too short.

:lol: I have two. The younger, now 9, is so much fun to ride, in all situations. Has such a great mind, a willing attitude, great athlete. The other, 10, has been much easier bringing along but big for me, so that has been the challenge for me personally.

They are both complete and total sweetie pies. Good work ethics, especially the younger mare.

I think the babies can be difficult early on (but that's true of many babies), but I've never met one who can't jump the moon. One of mine is an exceptional mover; the other good. I'm an adult ammie, so big learning curve. With a better rider, each would be much farther along, and, I think, very competitive at the top levels.

OP: you might want to contact P. Wynn. Based on her posts here, she's done a lot of research and has bred to some of the best.

HunterEventer

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:48 PM

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:53 PM

As far as temperment, we've been nothing short of thrilled with our Formula One baby. Photos are on my website.

eventrider

Nov. 9, 2009, 09:49 PM

I will be breeding Jumbo via frozen to my Mokhieba mare this spring, but I lucked out and bought the last two doses available in the US, so there is no more :). The Formula One babies we have here are very well behaved and sweet too!

LAZ

Nov. 9, 2009, 09:53 PM

I bred to Jumbo, but my mare did not take on 3 inseminations. :( I have decided to go with fresh semen for her.

I bred another Tb mare (has done jumpers, a half star, etc) to ISH Kilkelly's Alls Well for a 2010 baby.

If I had a Tb upper level mare I'd be looking to produce a full TB or 3/4 to 7/8 blood offspring, and look for a stallion that is very similar in phenotype and success but has physical strengths where the mare could use help. And I would only breed to horses that have produced good minded offspring, or are from a good minded family.

Trak_Eventer

Nov. 9, 2009, 10:42 PM

Sounds familiar! We bred Megan's 16'2" Intermediate mare to Windfall, and the match was perfect. He added trot, trainability, and good sense to Hailey's tremendous gallop and scope, resulting in a (now) 5-year old Anglo-Trakehner stallion, Nightfall... As Jo Whitehouse said at a Rolex breeding symposium a couple of years ago, "Nightfall is a carbon copy of his sire Windfall."

I will put my vote in for Windfall!
I have a Windfoal and I could not ask for a better mare. I got her when she was a late 3yo, me moving up from a packer QH. Probably not ideal, but it has worked great. My Windfoal has a great brain, easy to train, killer jump, great walk, super trot, above average canter, huge gallop, and the BEST personality! Not at all the "hot Trakehner" sterotype. I would ride her around bareback when she was a 3yo and she would be perfect. Everyone who meets her falls in love with her. She is the sweetest thing. All the other Windfoals I have met are the same. Plus Windfall's owners, the Holekamps, are some of the nicest people I have met. Can't go wrong with Windfall!

ThirdCharm

Nov. 9, 2009, 11:07 PM

I have one Intermediate mare bred to Formula One, and another planned in the spring.

Jennifer

AdAblurr02

Nov. 10, 2009, 12:32 AM

There is an Irish Draught Stallion that stands in Texas whose kids are just entering the "riding" world. One of them has been in the USEA mag for FEI a few times. He's unflappable and so are his kids. Great conformation. His name is Braveheart. I'd breed to him in a heart beat!!! It's a name that is an up and comer!

I second the vote for Braveheart RID. We have TWO rising threes sired by him, and both are super, super youngsters, from pretty hot-stuff TB mares. You can take a peek at them on our website - names are Warrior's Marque and American Lace.

BH himself is evented by his amateur lady owner, and he's never worn a shoe - nice guy all around and is what a good Irish horse should be. He does not throw a lot of height, the mare needs that if it's what you want, but that's not a big deal for many!

vineyridge

Nov. 10, 2009, 02:02 AM

You could consider Lauries Crusador just to add to the dressage phase. :)

He has had several eventing offspring.
1 started a Luhmuhlen this year in the 4* and came 5th in the 3* last year.

Another one finished 11th at the Adelaide 4* last year and has also pretty consistently finished in the top ten in Australian 3*s.

Another one is an International horse at 1 and 2*, mostly CICs.
One was on the Dutch team for Young Riders at the Euro Championships in 2005 and has made it up to 3* level.

A 2002 Lauries Crusador finished 7th at Le Lion this year, and has
finished 4th at a CIC 2* in 2009.

There's a 2001 Stallion who is eventing at the 1* level, and a couple of more geldings who are at that level.

He was also the damsire of a 2001 horse named Major Schiller who was ridden by Beeke Kaack in some 1*s.

Lauries Crusador certainly has the TB pedigree to be an event horse, and some of his younger ones are making their mark in Germany.

Equilibrium

Nov. 10, 2009, 06:13 AM

Well, I am in the process of trying to get back to the States with a few horses in tow. It will have to be next year so I am actually considering sending my black type TB mare from a very strong dam line to Master Imp and pray and hope she gets back home with baby still inside! The mare herself is a stunning mover. If not the Imp then I will go to Watermill Swatch. I think Twilight would have an amazing full TB bred for sport.

Terri

shea'smom

Nov. 10, 2009, 07:44 AM

I like to breed to a stallion I have seen myself. OF course, if I had all the money in the world, I could travel to see anyone I wanted! That would be fun :cool:
I have seen Formula One a few times and he would be at the top of my list.
But Denny also has a mare by Beaulieu’s Coolman that is extremely drool worthy. I don't know anything about him, like if he is still available, but that mare is a dream.

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:15 AM

Well this guy isn't as proven yet but I find him very interesting. He is mostly TB which I think is what you want for an UL horse. I know several who have bred to him for next year. He is currently high on my list for my mare's next breeding if all goes well with her current foal.

http://www.agenturserver.org/kempkehof_neu/englisch/hengste_magic.htm

But a lot would depend on your mare...how tall, what are her TB lines. His TB lines should nick well with my mare's lines (no line breeding and good crosses).

scribbles

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:24 AM

he isnt a eventing stallion, but he has a great personality, and an INCREDIBLY nice back, a couple of my friends are breeding to him this spring for this... Redwine. He is out in CA and does the hunters, has an amazing jump and great gaits, but i think the biggest thing for your mare is to make sure you find something nice and shortly coupled to help with her little conformation faults.

good luck!

Waterwitch

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:50 AM

eventersmom

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:54 AM

I agree with several of the previous posts recommending Lauries Crusador, Catherston Dazzler and A Fine Romance. We have a really nice Tb mare with Roberto lines that we are considering breeding and those three names come up consistently. I don't know that you could go wrong with any of them but it certainly depends on your mare's pedigree, what you like about her conformation and what you hope to improve upon.

Some stallions are known to improve on specific conformational issues. As an example, Lauries Crusador tends to improve the shoulder and produce more leggy offspring. Catherston Dazzler really stamps his foals and most tend to have his conformation. I personally wouldn't breed to a stallion that consistently produces something I don't want or need, i.e. offspring that consistently mature under 16h, have bad feet or major attitude issues. But we are wanting to produce an ammie friendly horse, not necessarily the next Olympic prospect!

Breeding research is fun and there is likely more than one good prospect out there for your mare. Have fun and good luck!

tle

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:02 AM

I'll second A Fine Romance. My Prelim mare was bred to him. Alas... as a 17 year old maiden she never took. :( But I wouldn't hesitate to breed to fred again. The bonus is that working with Gail is a wonderful experience.

One day... I'll have a Fred baby in my barn. :)

Hilary

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:10 AM

I have a Windstar baby. She is sweet (to people, other horses beware). She is athletic as all get out. So yes, she can jump the moon, and get herself out of any situation jumping. She can do flying changes and has a fancy warmblood trot. (she was out of a decent canadian TB mare who could also jump the moon, so I don't attribute it all to WS).

However, she has a spook a mile wide and three deep. She unloaded me on a regular basis when she was young. Not being nasty, but her reactions to new/strange/startling things is just wayyyy over the top. She took 5 years to learn 'spook in place' as opposed to spin, buck a few times, bolt 20 feet and spin back around.

A friend of mine had one too - sent her to the hospital several times because of his over-reactions to minor items and she finally sold him. He's still bucking off his new owner but she doesn't seem to mind.

There are other stallions out there producing equally athletic horses without the difficulty factor.

If you are a pro who likes a challenge, go for it. But bring your patience and wear your vest.

(However I would do the foal thing again in a minute! Despite the difficulties it was incredibly rewarding)

Waterwitch

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:12 AM

purplnurpl

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:34 AM

I would go buy Boomer's 1/2 sister (out of the same stallion -- Fast Forward) and breed her to Tzigane *Pb*.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/tzigane1.jpg
He evented through Training and then went to GP jumping.

I would much rather have a trainable horse than a hot old school event horse.
The trainable guys can do it just as well and I'd like to have a horse that is a pleasure to have around the barn.

I have a 4 year old full ATA out of Tzigane and one of my good friends has a filly from him.

His babies are AMAZING. So patient, trainable, and gorgeous.

Tzigane is smaller, 16.1ish I think? And Luci is 17.1h. She was the most trainable horse I've ever sat on.

What a horse that would make. Makes me drool just thinking about it.

And of course if Tzigane was not around then I would take Cool Man all the way. He's amazing.

http://www.twingates.com/taz.html

Luci 5 weeks under saddle. Basically 5 weeks being HANDELED!
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/CarstensTrip045.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/buddyshorses034.jpg
She jumped just like her brother:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/Boo10-1.jpg

Tzigane baby I have in training. 1st time over SJ fences. 1 month into jump training.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/harryjump.jpg

eventersmom

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:38 AM

It is interesting to see Laurie's Crusader pop up in this conversation, despite having a pedigree that event horse breeders drool over. The jumper breeders call him a "jump killer". His jumping index seems to support this view. From what viney posted, he has some progeny eventing successfully...wonder what the pedigrees of the mares are?

Vineyridge would be in a better position to tell you but my understanding is that he crosses well with mares that have strong sporthorse bloodlines and jumping ability, Babamist/Roberto/Mokhieba. But I am far from an expert...

mcorbett

Nov. 10, 2009, 10:03 AM

oooo, love Mighty Magic. Like those TB lines!

I'd love to breed my mare someday. Uneducated question...do most people go with fresh semen for the mare's first foal?

vineyridge

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:03 AM

Mighty Magic was 2nd at Le Lion this year. His sire is also the sire of Watermill Swatch that Equilibrium was talking about. A full brother of Watermill Swatch stood (don't know if he still does) at the Hanoverian State Stud at Celle last year.

I'd breed to him in a heartbeat, but there is still a huge question of whether he is a sire.

vineyridge

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:09 AM

It is interesting to see Laurie's Crusader pop up in this conversation, despite having a pedigree that event horse breeders drool over. The jumper breeders call him a "jump killer". His jumping index seems to support this view. From what viney posted, he has some progeny eventing successfully...wonder what the pedigrees of the mares are?

This may be one example where the demands of eventing and the demands of high level show jumping are very different and the results show it.

I'll do some research and post the pedigrees of the mares who have produced his event horses. They are all Hanoverian WBs, except for one Westfalian and one Holsteiner.

He's produced 3 times as many FEI dressage horses as eventers, though.

mcorbett

Nov. 10, 2009, 12:01 PM

I'm in love with this guy, but he's acted up in public and I don't know if he'd produce somthing with a little more spunk than I'd want. I just think he's beautiful and would make a great match with my mare, Flo (click on the pic in my signature).
http://www.leatherdalefarms.com/listman/listings/l0023.shtml
http://www.dressageworld.de/video/trakehner_2007/herzensdieb.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJqPHqYTby8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8oDwwdm9o4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56E2e4_vjw&feature=PlayList&p=4878999F5B40665E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5

Equilibrium

Nov. 10, 2009, 12:51 PM

Fatten her up Terri - I want her to have a colt :winkgrin: Would love to have those bloodlines available here in full TB!!

She is just amazing you know! Twilight is 17 now and puts the younger mares to shame. Raced soundly for 3 years and is the one at night rearing up and spinning circles for her feed. And when she goes up she stays up! Just happy like because it's usually accompanied by squealing too!

By the way, no fattening required - she likes being roundy!

Terri

Blugal

Nov. 10, 2009, 12:53 PM

Not sure how he would complement your mare, but off the top of my head, Consul (http://www.ironspringfarm.com/horses/profile_stats.php?unid=803&sidenav=profile&sc=warmbloods).

I love the look of his son Judgement, and Judgement's performance speaks for itself. That horse can JUMP.

Missy Ransehousen's 4-star horse Critical Decision is also a son of Consul.

vineyridge

Nov. 10, 2009, 02:19 PM

Horstfelde's Libero 1999 Westfaphalia G Lauries Crusador x Priska
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=334009
This horse came 1st at Le Lion in 2005 as a 6 yo. He is now being ridden by Kai Ruder, and consistently been in the top ten in 3*s.

Iltschi 1994 Holsteiner mare. Lauries Crusador x Koralle (Han)
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=468892
1 & 2* horse through 2008.

La Li Lu 1994 Hannover mare Lauries Crusador x Lysistrata
Lysistrata's Sire's pedigree:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1319
Dam sire pedigree: http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1322
Tail female line is Hanoverian Seelob/Anode but there is no pedigree that I can find. This is the Australian mare who was 11th at the 2008 Adelaide 4*.

Lady Lorridaile 1995 Hannover mare Lauries Crusador x Domsonne
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=197947
Dutch Team Euro Championships for Young Riders 2005, started Luhmuhlen CIC 3* 2009, competed regularly all over Europe in 1*, 2*, 3* with her formerly junior rider from the Netherlands.

Lanzelot 113 2002 Han. G Lauries Crusador x Ronda
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=338948
7th at Le Lion 2009--7yo. 4th at Langenhagen CIC 2* 2009. Other top ten finishes in CIC 1*s in Germany 2009.

Major Schiller 2001 Han G. Mytens xx x Latvija x Lauries Crusador
Latvija's dam's pedigree:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=40353
2007 CCI and CIC 1*s with Beeke Kaack Retired xc at the CCI and hasn't appeared since in the database results.

Le Clou 2001 Han. stallion Lauries Crusador x Gardefee
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=439719
His only results are from 1 & 2* CICs in 2008. He is his owner's only competition horse.

Linus 75 1993 Han G. Lauries Crusador x Grawolke
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=104377
Sixth Individual Euro Championships for Young Riders in 2007 with a Swiss Rider. Top ten results with same rider in 2006 in CIC 1*s.

Lucky Luciano 1997 Sachsen G Lauries Crusador x Lyrik II x Adio
Adio http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=268234
Lyrik's dam's sire:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=114618
dam's dam: http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=454710
Didn't do very well at CIC 1*s in 2007 and 2008.

I think Lauries Crusador would work best either with a confirmed Advanced mare or in a generational breeding program where the second generation would be bred to a confirmed event horse sire. He also seems to do well for eventing with mares who have a good bit of Thoroughbred or Trakehner.

Waterwitch

Nov. 10, 2009, 03:52 PM

Thanks for researching this viney. I am wondering if he will turn out to be a "terminal cross" to produce performance horses or if he will go on to produce other eventers through his progeny.

Is it the relative hybrid vigor?

elizabeth Callahan

Nov. 10, 2009, 06:54 PM

I bred my 11 maiden to Mighty Magic this year and she took on 1 dose. Hopefully he will turn out to be a sire!
My AFR filly is quite nice, and seems sensible - we'll see when I start riding her next year. More huntery movement, but 16.1 at 2 and correct.

vineyridge

Nov. 10, 2009, 07:32 PM

As I see (FWIW) Lauries Crusador there are a couple of things going on. He has proved himself to be such a good dressage sire and producer of dressage sires, which is where really big money is in Europe, that a breeder has to be rather creative at this point to breed outside the box to Lauries Crusador's pedigree for event horses. I think the fact that LC has had two do really well at Le Lion recently might make him more attractive to eventing breeders in Europe. All of his sire sons are patently focused at dressage and dressage mares and are from very strong dressage lines. So unless LC is able to produce an event horse stallion who can produce, the line isn't likely to survive (except through crazy breeders who will think outside WAY the box). The cross of LC and Mytens xx for eventing is awfully nice on paper, especially when you add a well bred mare with some Blood herself.

But if one of his goes on to be a big winner at the 4* level and makes Teams, then all the world will reconsider him as an event sire on the right high blood mares. Then you have to wonder if he will or has sired a sire son or grandson or daughter or granddaughter who will keep the line alive in the future for eventing. However, I do believe more eventers will be willing to try breeding to his lines if he does produce a truly stellar performer.

If I had a good ISH mare with complementary (complimentary?) TB lines, I'd certainly want to use LC. You know he has to pass on adjustability and rideability for his to do as well as they have in dressage, and he does have sterling TB lines for eventing.

If they bred him to Headley Britannia, the foal would have Wild Risk through both Worden and Vimy. :)

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:00 PM

IfWishesWereHorses

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:18 PM

Jaguar Mail. If he's good enough for Headly Brittania....he's good enough for me lol!

vineyridge

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:38 PM

You know, they did the Jaguar Mail/Brit breeding by AI and ET. I'm wondering, since Jaguar Mail's breeder is quite a publicist (that's what he does for a living) if perhaps there was a dam fee involved instead of a stud fee. It's just a sneaky suspicion that lurks in the back of my mind. And I'm sure the Fredericks will probably get "pick of the litter." (Aren't there supposed to have been three eggs in the oven somewhere?)

After all, Brit is discommoded very little by the breeding procedures.

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:51 PM

Interesting Viney....still don't think I would want to breed to LC directly b/c of fear of killing the jump....but a son or grandson crossed with good jumping lines...maybe.

that said...I know at least one dressage horse who I think I would love a foal by (don't care eventer or dressage horse)....although I bet this boy could jump too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_FDK04vXaI

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 10, 2009, 08:57 PM

You know, they did the Jaguar Mail/Brit breeding by AI and ET. I'm wondering, since Jaguar Mail's breeder is quite a publicist (that's what he does for a living) if perhaps there was a dam fee involved instead of a stud fee. It's just a sneaky suspicion that lurks in the back of my mind. And I'm sure the Fredericks will probably get "pick of the litter." (Aren't there supposed to have been three eggs in the oven somewhere?)

Very possible...but he did also jump in the Olympics himself. Not too shabby of a performance record. He's also a lovely type....another one who it will be interesting to see what he produces. It just takes so damn long for these young sires to prove themselves.

elizabeth Callahan

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:01 PM

Denis Glaccum has a 2009 Jaguar Mail filly out of his Mokheiba mare Emma I haven't see her yet, but looking forward to it.

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:53 PM

Denis Glaccum has a 2009 Jaguar Mail filly out of his Mokheiba mare Emma I haven't see her yet, but looking forward to it.

I've seen pictures...very pretty. He says she moves really well too.

subk

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:57 PM

that said...I know at least one dressage horse who I think I would love a foal by (don't care eventer or dressage horse)....although I bet this boy could jump too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_FDK04vXaI
Creepy to see a horse never change his outline regardless if he is collecting or extending. Well, at least you know there must be a great work ethic in there considering his willingness to perform while crammed into a box. A little like TWHs...fabulous dispositions to put up with the crap they do.

vineyridge

Nov. 10, 2009, 10:33 PM

Very possible...but he did also jump in the Olympics himself. Not too shabby of a performance record. He's also a lovely type....another one who it will be interesting to see what he produces. It just takes so damn long for these young sires to prove themselves.

He jumped for Sweden even though he was still owned by the Frenchman--or at least his breeding rights are. His rider all along has been the Swede, Peter Eriksson, whose Big horse for years was/is VDL Cardento. Jaguar Mail was 33rd in the HK Olympics. He is definitely a CSIO 5* jumper, but doesn't seem to have results on the database I'm using after 2008.

JER

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:47 PM

TB or not TB?

Nov. 11, 2009, 12:54 AM

Another vote for Jaguar Mail. No real logical reasoning behind this, just loff his confo and am a fan.

vineyridge

Nov. 11, 2009, 09:07 AM

There is a French scientific study out on the breeding of event horses. It found that the most successful improvement tool was the addition of dressage blood at 56%; show jumping blood was next. It also found that steeplechasing blood was not really very helpful.

The most interesting finding was that British and Irish breeding was actually retrogressing over time where event horse results were concerned. Apparently this is very unusual, as focused breeding usually and OUGHT to improve some index or other that is used.

I'll poke around in my computer and see if I can find where I saved the study. I'll have to attach it to an email or PM, though, as it normally is only available to scholars or educational institutions through their subscriptions.

With LC, you get TB, nice eventing pedigree, and proven dressage producer.

Interesting Viney....still don't think I would want to breed to LC directly b/c of fear of killing the jump....but a son or grandson crossed with good jumping lines...maybe.

that said...I know at least one dressage horse who I think I would love a foal by (don't care eventer or dressage horse)....although I bet this boy could jump too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_FDK04vXaI

vineyridge

Nov. 11, 2009, 09:12 AM

I thought the AI/ET was from the prize for the top-finishing mare at Badminton the year HB won. This has been the award to the top mare for some years now.

Might be, but they did multiple embryos.

Lincoln

Nov. 11, 2009, 09:53 AM

Viney- I may be wrong on this but I think I looked at Selle's website and LC doesn't freeze. (Adding a dose of boring reality to this conversation.)

Londonderry does, but since I have a WB event mare that needs a better canter, I think I'm sticking with TB's or mostly-TB's that have a proven canter-improving/hind end improving ability. Any thoughts? AFR is my top pick. There is a young TB stallion at Selle that Isabel Werth apparently picked as a dressage improvement stallion that might be worth a look, but I couldn't find anything on his character. Since I'm looking for an ammy horse out of this, character rules.

vineyridge

Nov. 11, 2009, 10:41 AM

I looked through all the L stallions at Celle, and none of them show as frozen.

However, we know Londonderry freezes, so then I guess it might require contacting the stud to find out WHO does actually freeze.

There is an interesting Londonderry son at the State Stud--a young fellow named Lorenzio. He's high in blood. His granddam sire is Forrest xx who is the sire of Famm, dam of Shutterfly and Let's Fly; and his dam sire is Pik Senior who goes back to Pik Bube and Pik As xx. He has both International Dressage horses and International Jumping Horses in his dam lines.
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=140333

He has several E line Hanoverians, and they are considered multi-purpose with a jumping tendency.

I really like this pedigree for an event horse on top of a TB mare.

Carol Ames

Nov. 11, 2009, 11:18 AM

If you want a baby who will have several possibilites for a career try "Fred( a fine romance) has this mare had foals already? If she has and foaled easily :cool:consider Windstar or Formula One

Carol Ames

Nov. 11, 2009, 11:25 AM

However, she has a spook a mile wide and three deep. She unloaded me on a regular basis when she was young. Not being nasty, but her reactions to new/strange/startling things is just wayyyy over the top. She took 5 years to learn 'spook in place' as opposed to spin, buck a few times, bolt 20 feet and spin back around.

A friend of mine had one too - sent her to the hospital several times because of his over-reactions to minor items and she finally sold him. He's still bucking off his new owner but she doesn't seem to mind.

There are other stallions out there producing equally athletic horses without the difficulty factor.

If you are a pro who likes a challenge, go for it. But bring your patience and wear your vest.

JER

Nov. 11, 2009, 11:43 AM

Might be, but they did multiple embryos.

Yes but from the same stallion. This often happens with ET -- you get more than one (usually two) and you implant both.

My breeding vet got as many as six on one try. When I bred my mare to Catherston Dazzler, I got two embryos, transferred both but one was reabsorbed at 60 days.

vineyridge

Nov. 11, 2009, 12:23 PM

Sport Horse Breeder in Scotland is/was offering LC frozen.
http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/Hanovarian/hanovarian.htm Website is out of date and the individual stallion pages are under construction.

I think that's Hugh Mahon of Sport Horse Breed database, and he offers a huge number of stallions frozen. He "MIGHT" have some Julio Mariner frozen left. If he does, can you imagine breeding to HIM? (Not Mahon. :))

Don't know if he can ship to the US, but apparently that isn't such a huge deal.

I am in LOVE with Welton Ambassador. What a gorgeous and prolific event horse sire he is/was.

vineyridge

Nov. 11, 2009, 07:32 PM

Forgot a stallion in the US who is relatively new here, but has two sterling get in Australia who carry the Clifton prefix.

Knock Wood. His dam is Twist line, full sister of Gem Twist and his sire is Olisco. He's registered SF.

One of his Cliftons won the Australian YEH -- I forget for what age--and the other has had amazing dressage scores.

Even though Knock Wood is jumper bred, his Australian progeny indicate that he would be a super event sire as well.

He stands at Newsprint Farm in Pennsylvania.

Celle doesn't freeze LC. I checked. Apparently he doesn't freeze well now.

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 11, 2009, 07:59 PM

Clear Blue

Nov. 11, 2009, 09:46 PM

Newsprint is Danny Magill. She owned Olisco. I can track down her number in PA if you would like.

vineyridge

Nov. 12, 2009, 12:43 AM

Here ya go.
NEWSPRINT FARM Danny Magill. Doylestown, 215-297-5188

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 12, 2009, 10:59 AM

Here ya go.
NEWSPRINT FARM Danny Magill. Doylestown, 215-297-5188

Perfect. Yup not too far. Might need to swing in there in the next week or two.....

IfWishesWereHorses

Nov. 15, 2009, 01:55 PM

IfWishesWereHorses

Nov. 15, 2009, 02:03 PM

Very possible...but he did also jump in the Olympics himself. Not too shabby of a performance record. He's also a lovely type....another one who it will be interesting to see what he produces. It just takes so damn long for these young sires to prove themselves.

He also covered Winsome Adante's dam, and two of his sisters. Hand in Glove (Jaguar Mails sire) is a pretty impressive sire also, though I think he's dead now with limited frozen available.

classen_eventer

Nov. 15, 2009, 03:25 PM

Good luck to you!!

We have bred to Royal Appearance (a Riverman stallion) who stands at VA tech and are thrilled. Our yearling colt won the yearling colt class at the FEH championships and was the reserve champion yearling. He is a wonderful guy. He has a full sibling on the way for next year who is for sale in utero, and we'll breed the mare back to him when that baby is on the ground. That's how much we like this combo! We have another Royal baby on the ground this year out of a Comet Shine mare who is also lovely. Royal has a CCI*** baby doing quite well with Clark Montgomery. Virginia Tech (Dr. Splan runs the breeding program) is a dream to deal with as a breeder (you just pay the collection fee and don't have to pay the rest until you have a live foal on the ground), and the vet school has a super reproductive team headed by Dr. Dascanio.

Comet Shine is a racehorse stallion who stands in CA and who is the father of Becky Holder's Courageous Comet. I think his stud fee is $3000, and I would consider him if I had unlimited money.

We also have a yearling filly out of Formula One who was 2nd in the FEH championship filly class. She is out of my old intermediate mare who was also, shall we say politely, the penultimate alpha mare..... Formula One added what we had hoped for (more bone and a sounder brain). We would have 2 more by her out of Formula One if we had not lost them (long story involving an idiot of a farm manager, we manage things ourselves now - had to learn that the hard way). We plan to breed her back to Formula One next year. By the way, in our experience, you can't breed all or even most of that attitude out. The baby is definitely a product of the mare. We have babies out of the same stallion who have very different temperaments mostly reflecting their Moms. That said, however, we are very happy with Africa as Formula One seems to have toned down Mom's personality.... I would be sad if she still didn't have some of it! I think a little "attitude" is necessary for a top eventer. May and Denny are also lovely to work with and very encouraging. I went to visit Formula One unannounced when he was a 3 year old stallion. Denny pulled him from a pasture, and he (Formula One) was a complete gentleman. Denny was also completely nice and professional about showing me the stallion, and May is always delightful to deal with.

We bought a mare in foal to Contucci and planned to sell the offspring at weaning because we feared he would be "too dressagey." Enter Copperfield. He is lovely and has the absolute sweetest temperament of any foal we have had yet so we plan to see how he goes. At least to date, he seems a nice balance between his Hanno father and TB mother - not too heavy for eventing. Also Contucci has some offspring doing well in eventing.

We have tried to get mares in foal to Bradenburg's Windstar for 2 years with no success which has been expensive because of the vet fees, and the fact that we have over $2000 tied up in stud fees. Fingers crossed, we have better luck next year.... At least for us, he has not had great fertility. The mares we have bred to Formula One and Royal have all been pregnant first try

If I had a time machine, I would breed to Salute. Salute was a fabulous (though sadly now deceased) Aussie stallion I have read a bunch about as he is the father of my horse Rafferty's Rules (Reggie) who Sharon White rides for us. He was owned by the famous Ryan family (I believe Heath Ryan is who Boyd Martin rode with in Australia although I could be wrong about that). Salute has offspring who have been on Olympic teams in all 3 Olympic disciplines - that to me is impressive! I have been trying to find a stallion with his bloodlines to breed to, and think I may have finally found one that ships frozen semen so we hope to have some mares in foal to him next year. The stallion (who is a half brother to Reggie) stands in Australia at Wyronga. Here is what the owner's say about him: "Yes we still have our stunning Salute Stallion 'Glandore Salute The Stars', his stud fee is still $1100, and yes it is definitely possible to ship it to the states for you. Sam's temperament is superb, he breeds this into his foals as they all have a willing nature and also along with the quiet and laid back temperament they have a look at me presence and sensational movement. I'm not sure if you are aware also that the Australian Showjumping National Coach wanted to buy him for jumping as he has a breathtaking jump on him, we didn't sell him because he is such an amazing horse and we couldn't part with him. He throws the jumping ability into his foals also, we have a small Galloway who was in the yard and the gate was on the uphill side and she cleared the gate from a stand still, so it is bred into them also." I have found a few other Salute offspring who are stallions, but this is the only one who ships frozen semen. Will likely give him a try next year. I love my Reggie, cheeky monkey that he is!

Finally, if you want to see the world rankings for stallions in the disciplines of dressage, eventing, and jumping, you can check it out at the nonprofit World Breeding Federation for Sporthorses:
http://www.wbfsh.org/?GB/Rankings/Stallion%20Ranking%202009.aspx
Lots of well known names there like Jumbo, Master Imp, Cruising, etc. You'll also see Riverman there who is the father of Royal Appearance. Riverman still stands also at Hilltop Farm in MD. They have a lot of other cool statistics too! I think it is important to note that young stallions like Formula One and Royal will not be on those rankings for some time because their babies have to get older and have competition records to make these lists.

I think the biggest mistake people make is not breeding mares who have shown they can be competitive at the top or have superior COMPETITION bloodlines. The fact that you are breeding a mare who could compete at Intermediate is a great start. Have fun!!!! Despite our initial issues which resolved when we got rid of our lax farm manager, we have had nothing but fun!!!!

I would also encourage you to do the FEH shows when your baby is a yearling. I think the point (at least for us) is a lot less about winning and losing and more about the superb opportunity to get the babies out to shows, being handled and braided and getting used to a show environment before they ever take a step in the arena under saddle. Good luck to you! Hope to see you at a FEH show in a year or so!! I probably wont get a chance to check back on the forum for days so feel free to email if I can ever be helpful. If I don't get back to you for a couple days, it is because I work a million hours and get to my emails periodically. I sure hope this is helpful to someone because that is way more that I have written in a long time.... Nothing like procrastination. Back to my charts...

"A"
www.witsendeventing.com

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 15, 2009, 03:47 PM

lol....you can't post such a great post without giving the contact information for that Salute stallion!

Congrats on your Royal babies. My mare lost her's unfortunately....it was a filly too. Still very sad about that....and considering buying one of his in the future. He looks like he produces nice babies!

classen_eventer

Nov. 15, 2009, 04:58 PM

Here is the info for the Salute stallion:

http://www.wyrongapark.com.au/wyronga_park_blue_004.htm

Glenda and Faye Hinchliffe
(03) 97391891
wyronga@bigpond.net.au

'Wyronga Park'
40 Boundary Road
Coldstream 3770
Victoria Australia

So sorry to hear about your lost filly. That is just SO heartbreaking. We'll have several Royal babies on the ground next year so come look. Also, VA tech has the Hokie Harvest sale every year (just over) where you can get a lot of nice Royal babies at good prices. You can also contact Rebecca directly (you probably already know this as you bred to him). They always have some NICE young stock for sale. My husband insists that we actually have to occasionally sell one..... They just keep turning out so darn handsome!!!!

kookicat

Nov. 15, 2009, 05:30 PM

What does everyone think of Primitive Rising for event breeding?

I like Future Illusion. He has some super performance breeding behind him, and he's a lovely stamp of a horse.

There's also another young stallion over here who looks interesting, but I'm drawing a blank on his name.

ETA- Found it! I was thinking about Deanes San Ciro Hit.

Trak_Eventer

Nov. 15, 2009, 06:06 PM

I am thinking about breeding my Trakehner mare in a few years. She is by Windfall II out of an Avignon II mare.
I am wanting to add size to her (she is 15.3 on a tall day), add bone, and improve her canter. However I am wanting to stay with Trakehner or Thoroughbred for breed registration purposes. I would LOVE to breed her to Fleetwater Opposition if there is still frozen semen left. Any other good suggestions?
I have loved looking at all these stallions! Such good eye candy :yes:

JER

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:03 PM

I would LOVE to breed her to Fleetwater Opposition if there is still frozen semen left.

The EMCO website (http://www.emcostallionservices.com/pricelist12009.html) says there's 7 doses left. I'm not sure how current that info is.

If you want to breed to FO, buy the frozen now and store it until you need it. If you decide not to use it, you wouldn't have a hard time selling it again.

FO has a grandson (via the incredible Summersong), Leprince des Bois (http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/g9OKIvXFBVf/Burghley+Horse+Trials/BbgCeBhEPvr), who finished 10th at Burghley this year. I'm hoping he'll be available to US breeders sometime in the near future.

TxEventer81

Nov. 15, 2009, 07:04 PM

He also covered Winsome Adante's dam, and two of his sisters. Hand in Glove (Jaguar Mails sire) is a pretty impressive sire also, though I think he's dead now with limited frozen available.

Jaguar Mail hasn't covered Winsome Adante's dam or any of his sisters... That appears to be a misprint. Future Sport Horses has no mention of Jaguar Mail covering any of their mares past or present. Though it does look like Hand in Glove is being used on a lovely Shaab mare :yes:

vineyridge

Nov. 17, 2009, 04:19 PM

There is also a very lovely Trakehner stallion in Germany named Laurel by Stan The Man. Laurel is/was an eventer, but he won't have many competition aged get on the ground, as he was not promoted heavily in his first couple of years at stud. He's a 1995 who stands at the state stud in Baden Wurtemburg, where Stan The Man also stood at the end of his life.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/laurel14

There was a full brother of Leprince des Bois who did very nicely in the six year old classes at Le Lion this year. I can't remember if he is entire or not, though. Just thought y'all would appreciate the connection, since it's fairly rare that two full brothers would do so well so close together.

JER

Nov. 17, 2009, 04:39 PM

There was a full brother of Leprince des Bois who did very nicely in the six year old classes at Le Lion this year. I can't remember if he is entire or not, though.

Popof des Bois (http://www.tequilas-secrets.com/?2009/10/19/1470-championnat-du-monde-des-6-ans-mondial-du-lion-d-angers-2009) (scroll to about 3/4 down the page) is a gelding.

There are two other full sibs out there (per pedigree query), a 2002 mare named Olympia des Bois and a 2000 colt named Murmure des Bois (http://jalaguier-cce.e-monsite.com/rubrique,notre-discipline,231582.html) (scroll to bottom of page, he's the one showjumping).

Nice horses.

Robby Johnson

Nov. 17, 2009, 10:54 PM

Leprince des Bois (http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/g9OKIvXFBVf/Burghley+Horse+Trials/BbgCeBhEPvr), who finished 10th at Burghley this year. I'm hoping he'll be available to US breeders sometime in the near future.

I'm not. Or, let me rephrase, "widely available to US breeders." That horse was downright scary to watch go at Burghley and though I know his temperament has been positively reviewed by others, his fire-breathing dragon/fling your body and go temperament is positively the last thing an amateur/hobbyist breeder needs access to.

But I do love Future Illusion and was very impressed with I got to get up close and personal with him in England a few months back.

vineyridge

Nov. 18, 2009, 01:13 AM

Here's a site with a short video of Laurel.
http://www.trakehners-international.com/handorf_2009a.html

Waterwitch

Nov. 18, 2009, 08:09 AM

Here's a site with a short video of Laurel.
http://www.trakehners-international.com/handorf_2009a.html

This would be an interesting horse to have access to since Stan the Man was the sire of Leslie Law's CCI**** brothers Shear l'Eau and Shear H20 (of course they were FULL brothers, so the female family should receive serious consideration as well ;)).

vineyridge

Nov. 18, 2009, 09:00 AM

This would be an interesting horse to have access to since Stan the Man was the sire of Leslie Law's CCI**** brothers Shear l'Eau and Shear H20 (of course they were FULL brothers, so the female family should receive serious consideration as well ;)).

Stan The Man is also the sire of Michael Jung's horse, Sam (FW Biosth(?) Sam) who has been so spectacular this year.

eventersmom

Nov. 18, 2009, 09:04 AM

Waterwitch

Nov. 18, 2009, 12:02 PM

Anyone know anything about Cicera's Icewater as an eventing sire? I've seen his get and they look quite nice but I'm not finding many that are out of a Tb mare. Any input on this possible cross?

I rather like his look.

Well on pedigree alone he would be worth looking at since his dam is a full sister to Cavalier Royale, who has enjoyed much success as a sire of event horses.

ThirdCharm

Nov. 18, 2009, 04:15 PM

Cicera's Icewater is on the short list for my Intermediate Hanoverian mare, but I'm not aware of any of his youngsters in competition yet.....

Jennifer

vineyridge

Nov. 18, 2009, 10:00 PM

TxEventer81

Nov. 19, 2009, 06:55 PM

Can we get Primitive Rising in the US? I was under the impression that there are only limited quantities only for breeders in the UK... What do you think about his son Primitive Proposal?

http://www.louellastud.co.uk/primitive_proposal.php

JER

Nov. 19, 2009, 07:18 PM

Primitive Rising died quite a while ago (2000?). I didn't think he was ever available via frozen or outside of the UK.

He was a gorgeous horse with many successful eventer offspring -- but with a reputation for being hot. Like the one that scored 103 in dressage at Badminton (the score sheet looked like it was written in binary -- all zeroes and ones).

Rock King, the Advanced eventing stallion who died in 2000, did have frozen semen available. IIRC, there is still a few doses remaining but getting them is another story.

Mary King is currently competing homebreds by both of these sires.

elizabeth Callahan

Nov. 19, 2009, 10:10 PM

I bred 2 Cicera's Icewater colts out of a half sister to John Williams' Sloopy who is herself by Corporate Report. One is more WB looking, the other more Tb looking. Both will be 16.2, good bone and very good movers. One was in the top 10 for RPSI premium colts in 2008. the older one will be 3 in 2010, the other two. It will be interesting to see how they turn out...

jhodkin

Nov. 20, 2009, 06:51 AM

Thank you Robby about your comments about my boy Future Illusion. We've been a bit slow about getting some semen out to the US so far, but we did freeze some which is really good stuff, and are currently working out how the most economical way to get it over to you guys.

I don't know if you have access to the British Equestrian Futurity Evaluation website, but it makes quite interesting reading as they have produced Stallion rankings? For those who don't know what the Futurity is, it's an annually run evaluation series for foals to 3 year olds, whereby a vet and a panel of assessors examine youngstock for the potential to be elite sport horses, based on suitability and soundness for a chosen discipline. This is not a studbook/breeding evaluation, it's a sport assessment. Over 300 Event youngstock alone were presented to the panels. This year we were absolutely blown away as 'my little baby'(!) topped the Sire rankings for Eventers. We are still celebrating!

For reference here's the link to the Stallion Rankings. If you select all disciplines it will show all stallions who had 3 or more scores to count, across all disciplines. You can use the drop down box to select Event sires only to get this subset -
http://www.nedonline.co.uk/public/futurity/SireRankings.aspx

Obviously the Futurity is only an indicator of raw ability and we will have to see how well this translates to performance as Eventers. Hopefully, the experienced panels know what to look for, but then production of a horse can make such a massive difference to how far it goes, I'm sure it will always be quite difficult to map Futurity scores directly to eventual performance.