Dilemma - WWYD?

[Aeternitee]

I bought a saddle at quite a discount from a private party. This was a saddle by an expensive maker - new, these run between 2-3K.

I decided to buy it after quite a bit of corresponding, question-asking, and viewing photos. I specifically asked if the saddle's tree was sound, and the seller's answer was yes. I requested a trial, and the seller offered me $200. off the price if I bought it outright. So I did.

The saddle turned out not to be a good fit for my horse, and I didn't like it either. So I sold it on.

The person I sold it to tells me she took it to her saddler and they say the tree is damaged. I guess they mean not completely broken, but the framing damaged in such a way that the saddle is basically useless.

She wants to return it and get a refund.

I want to return it to the previous seller and get a refund! It was misrepresented to me! I didn't like the feel of it when I tried it, but figured it just wasn't a good fit for my build. I often have trouble finding saddles that work for my thigh length, so I chalked it up to that.

I don't know the buyer. I don't know whether to trust her account of the saddle. So far, she hasn't been forthcoming with the name of her saddler - though she may still do so.

I have my own contact with a saddler who specializes in this sort of saddle, and want him to talk with her saddler. I'll be more inclined to give a refund if my saddler thinks it sounds legitimate.

The buyer specifically requested to make the transaction outside of Ebay, so I ended my auction to oblige her. In the auction, I specified there would be no returns.

Of course, I thought the saddle was sound! And until I get some input from my saddler, I can't just take her word for it that it is damaged.

I've NEVER had this come up before. I've sold probably 10 - 12 saddles on and off Ebay over the years, and never had such a situation. I honestly don't know what to think.

I would welcome input from the point of view of both buyers and sellers on this situation.

Really, if the saddle was damaged, it should have been sent to the manufacturer for repair by the person who owned it at the time - not sold on as sound. I don't want to perpetuate this wrong, but I am also in dire need of the money to buy a saddle I CAN use.

WWYD? What do you think of this?

[analise]

The buyer specifically requested to make the transaction outside of Ebay, so I ended my auction to oblige her.

I'd say that right there was a bad move. If someone were to ask me to end an auction I'd say that if the auction ends at the allotted time and no one buys it, I'd sell it to them. But by doing the transaction outside of ebay, you (and the buyer for that matter) have little recourse if something goes wrong.

I'd also say that you specified no returns and characterized the saddle to the best of your ability. Besides, for all you know the buyer did something to it silly and damaged it or it maybe was damaged in transit. For all you know it was damaged in transit on its way to you and that the person who sold it to you characterized it to the best of their knowlege. For all you know the saddler is trying to talk your buyer into buying one of their saddles. For all you know the buyer might be not telling the truth.

Anyway, my point is, from the story you told, you acted in good faith and I don't think you should have to take a return.

That said, it might be worth it if you're concerned about your selling reputation or if you think the buyer is telling the truth to try offering a partial refund or something.

[SkipChange]

Doesn't ebay tell you to never do that? to never end the auction and make the transaction outside of ebay?

I pretty much agree with analise.

If it were me, I would go hide under a rock and cry. Good luck!

[Aeternitee]

Well, I don't have a reputation to protect as such - since the transaction was done outside Ebay, it's not like she can leave me negative feedback or something.

In fact, I have a 100% positive feedback record on Ebay with over 200 transactions. But just because I could do it without hurting my reputation, doesn't make me feel good about it.

My problem is, I don't know the buyer from adam and don't have any way of determining whether she's telling the truth. That's why I want her saddler to talk to mine - I trust my saddler, and if he thinks it may be legitimate, I might consider refunding.

In the meantime, I'm in contact with the lady I bought the saddle from, describing the situation...haven't heard back from her yet.

[Aeternitee]

@SkipChange: I'm sadder but wiser now. I was interested in saving some of Ebay's fees. Already PayPal was going to take a bite out of my sales price. I'll know better next time. It's the first time I ever ended an auction early.. Sigh.

[Ozone]

O/P The person who bought the saddle from you is SOL. Just like you are SOL from the person you originally bought the saddle from. That's it. Most all saddles and everything usually on Ebay is non returnable. It is a risk you take and that's it.

I would not be in contact with anyone. Let the person who made you end auction early to buy the saddle deal with the issue. It is no longer your problem, you carried out your end by shipping to saddle to her in one piece. She could by lying to you as well. I am sure the saddle is fine. It probably just does not fit her or the intended horse correctly.

[Bluey]

There are two questions here:

1- What can you do, the way the selling was done, with you specifying no returns?

2- What is the ethical thing to do?

To the buyer, you can say "too bad, I did specify no returns, don't feel that I misrepresented the saddle and if it is damaged now, I sure was not aware of it".

Or, what I would do, take the saddle back, no matter what and leave a satisfied customer, even if you feel they are trying to take advantage of you.
Try to be smarter and luckier next time about what you sell.:)

As to having bought the saddle, there you are in the hands of that seller and will have to go by what kind of person the seller is and what was said about that sale.
In a way, that transaction is now in that seller's hands and out of yours.

That second part should not determine how you conduct the sale on your end, where you should do what is right, no matter if this ends up being at your loss as a buyer.

Now, that all is just my opinion, with what I understand of what has been presented.:yes:

[seabreeze]

While it is important to do the right thing, I don't think you would be doing the wrong thing by ending your involvement with the buyer. You have no way of knowing if the buyer is being truthful. By purchasing the saddle outside of an eBay transaction (especially at his/her request), the buyer took a calculated risk.

If you suspected a damaged tree at the time of sale and did not disclose that to the buyer, then yes, the right thing would be to take it back.

If you did not suspect a damaged tree at the time of sale, then I do not believe that you are ethically or morally obligated to take the saddle back.

Good luck!

[Trixie]

I bought one off Craigslist that turned out to have a broken tree. I figured since I'd seen it in person it was my responsibility to know what I was getting, so I had the tree repaired for $325. Perhaps if her saddler calls you and talks to yours, you could offer to refund her the amount of repair.

[Kate66]

I think there are a few things here:

1. why did she request to do the transaction outside of ebay? It wasn't costing her to do it within ebay and would have given her some protection. This seems a little suspicious. I wonder if this is something that she has a habit of to then try to pull a fast one?

2. even if it has a damaged tree, how do you know that the person who sold it to you knew about it. You could try to get a refund from that person, but maybe they had just bought it and thought the same as you and it was really the person that sold it to them that had damaged it?

3. I think it is caveat emptor. If you buy a used saddle, online, you are taking a huge risk. Likewise if you had kept it and found out it had a problem I don't think you could go back to the person you bought it from either.

I would write a nice note to the person saying something along the lines of "Thank you for your email. I was unaware of any issue with the saddle when I sold it to you. I am sorry that you appear to be having issues with it now however it was a sale as-is, therefore I cannot offer you any refund. Regards..............". Don't even get into more of a discussion. You may be trying to do the "right" thing, but in reality this could be a professional scammer that you are dealing with and if not, well she learned a lesson hopefully.

(btw, I have also bought and sold saddles off ebay, one of which was a reasonably expensive Passier, was supposedly "new" but when I rode in it, the black polish came off onto my beige breeches and when I called Passier with the serial number, it was about 8 years old!. I was very pissed, but didn't expect a refund, just kicked myself for buying online)

[Aeternitee]

Thanks for all the input, folks. I appreciate it. The thing is, I don't think the saddle is unsound. I do not feel it was unsound when I shipped it, and it certainly was not damaged in transit.

The buyer isn't offering anything more concrete than her say-so that anything is wrong with the saddle, so I think I'm going to have to stand firm on this one.

[mvp]

I think the onus is on your buyer to prove that the saddle's tree is now broken. I think you would be within your rights (but also decent) to specify the proof she must supply in order to convince you. Having her saddler talk to yours isn't too much to ask.

You are in the same position as the person who sold it to you: To the best of your knowledge, the tree is sound. So why do you want to or even hope you could pass this buck backward one transaction.

And to the posters that cry "scam!" on suspicion, or "Ebay is a dog-eat-dog place... duh!" Remember that all Ebay users make it exactly as good or as bad as it is.

I don't often buy on line but for big items like saddles, I have found great sellers. They posted good pics, answered questions and even clarified or modified return policies for me in writing (at least via an e-mail we both agreed could be printed out and used as a binding contract should things go awry.) Not everyone will work so hard with a buyer, but please do the leg work and look for good sellers before dissing the whole system.

By the way, a buyer asking a seller to end an auction early is *not* necessarily prepping for a scam. They are merely asking to get out of what they predict will be a bidding war. At worst, they are ripping off Ebay, but they are also giving up the methods of recourse that Ebay offers.

[amastrike]

I'd probably say too bad, I said no refunds, guess you should have bought it through ebay to protect yourself.

But if you want to be nice, you could offer her a partial refund.

[nightsong]

so I had the tree repaired for $325. Perhaps if her saddler calls you and talks to yours, you could offer to refund her the amount of repair.

Since you're apparently knowledgeable and say you believed the saddle to be sound, this is the MOST i'd offer, and only if the seller offered reasonable proof that the tree IS damaged, and it seems to have been that way foor a while.

[tikidoc]

Since you're apparently knowledgeable and say you believed the saddle to be sound, this is the MOST i'd offer, and only if the seller offered reasonable proof that the tree IS damaged, and it seems to have been that way foor a while.

If I was going to do this, I would want to pay the saddler directly for the repair rather than a partial refund, to be sure that the repair cost was not getting padded.

[Saidapal]

I would tell her, "I am willing to work with you to make the transaction right, but I'm sure you can understand that until your saddler talks to mine and I know the exact extent of the damage I will not go any further in this discussion. I did sell the saddle with a 'no return' policy. Have a nice day."

I'm betting she doesn't even have a saddler. She just doesn't like it now and is trying to pawn it back on you.

[Aeternitee]

The buyer has started a dispute on Paypal to have her money refunded. However, she still hasn't offered any concrete proof of damage, nor will she have her saddler talk to my saddler.

I am suggesting that we forward the saddle on to the authorized repair agent for this brand of saddle in the US, and let her tell us if there's anything wrong with it...

I can't issue a refund on just the buyer's say-so, and I don't think she'll be able to win a dispute through the Paypal process unless she provides more proof. Even if she does, how can it be determined that it didn't happen after the saddle left my care? How can it be determined that her saddler's assessment is even correct, (if it exists)? Her saddler is not an authorized repair person for this type of saddle.

Sigh. Well, Keep Calm and Carry On, as the british say!

[Aeternitee]

At this point, I've actually been in contact with the lady I bought the saddle from, and the lady who sold it to her as well! The second-to-last lady says she rode in it 6 days a week average, for 6 months - with absolutely no problems.

The lady I bought it from, like me, put it on her horse and it didn't fit her horse, so didn't ride in it more than a few minutes. However, she did check the tree by the usual methods - bracing the cantle of the saddle on her stomach and pulling on the pommel, and watching for undue movement (there was none). I did the same, and there was none when I checked, either.

[analise]

The buyer has started a dispute on Paypal to have her money refunded. However, she still hasn't offered any concrete proof of damage, nor will she have her saddler talk to my saddler.

I am suggesting that we forward the saddle on to the authorized repair agent for this brand of saddle in the US, and let her tell us if there's anything wrong with it...

I can't issue a refund on just the buyer's say-so, and I don't think she'll be able to win a dispute through the Paypal process unless she provides more proof. Even if she does, how can it be determined that it didn't happen after the saddle left my care? How can it be determined that her saddler's assessment is even correct, (if it exists)? Her saddler is not an authorized repair person for this type of saddle.

Sigh. Well, Keep Calm and Carry On, as the british say!

Just a note about paypal. I seem to have this feeling that a lot of times, paypal finds in favor of the buyer. So you might want to make sure you contact them to explain your side of the story.

[seabreeze]

The more I read of this, the more it sounds like this buyer is a "professional" scammer.

[Sarabeth]

Yes. Be prepared for her to get the money refunded and keep the saddle, too. Sorry, but you will probably lose the claim in Paypal - based on what I've observed, the seller usually loses. That's why I avoid using Paypal and never sell on eBay anymore.

Think again about offering her a full return with shipping included if she returns the saddle to you in the exact same condition in which it was shipped to her. Tell her you will inspect the saddle and give her a refund. She'll probably refuse, though. If she does return it, at least you'd have the saddle back. Even if you don't want the hassle, it will help cut some of your losses.

I did the above with a scammer. She complained bitterly about the condition of a brand new item and demanded a 30% refund. I took the route described above and the buyer was furious because they wanted the item and the discount, but I got it back. Later found out she'd tried that trick on other sellers - but you can't research much about buying history anymore, because eBay now hides that :(

Consider sharing her eBay user name via PM so other saddle sellers will know to avoid her. Sellers won't be able to see anything suspicious by looking at her feedback since she completed her transaction with you outside ebay. Clever on her part.

Hope this makes sense, I'm heavily medicated right now :winkgrin:

[Aeternitee]

The buyer has a perfect feedback record on Ebay, with over 1000 transactions. It does look like she buys and sells a lot of tack, more than someone who's just moving items of their own. So she maybe is a tack trader, albeit a reliable one within the confines of Ebay.

Maybe that's why she wanted to take it outside Ebay!

How can it be that there's any possibility that the buyer would be awarded a refund, yet still be able to keep the saddle? That doesn't make any sense. :confused: For one thing, if she really thinks the saddle is such a POS, why would she want to hang on to it?

[philosoraptor]

Hate to say it, but IMO you can't blame the person you bought it from. You had an obligation to inspect it thoroughly before putting it up for sale as useable.

There are two problems worth mentioning:

One, we have to trust their saddle fitter's opinion. I suppose you could ask for the saddle back and inspect it yourself to see if you agree. Anyone with a printer to make business cards can be a "saddle fitter".

Two, the damage may not be an old problem. Could it have been damaged in shipment to you or to the buyer? Could the new buyer be a little dishonest and forgot to tell anyone her horse stepped on it the day buyer first had it? Could someone at the buyer's boarding barn have touched it?


You'd need to make a judgement call on how much you trust the buyer and his/her saddle fitter. You could ask for the saddle back and if it is indeed damaged, offer them a % of the money back. There's got to be a compromise here.

If she expects anything back, you do need the saddle back...that much is clear.

You may also want to question the buyer about the condition of the packaging. Was the box crushed, dented, or creased in any way? It could've happened in shipment, in which case shipping insurance would be responsible. (The hard part being getting them to pay up on an item like used saddle)

Good luck to you!

[cajunbelle]

I am glad to see this post... as I am hunting for a used Dressage saddle online. I guess, buyer beware!

[Aeternitee]

Cajunbelle - I have to say, I've bought and sold more than a dozen saddles on and off Ebay, and never had anything like this happen before. Maybe that's just been luck on my part, but up till now, it's all been good experiences.

Everybody, I've been in touch with the two previous owners and I feel confident neither of them sold it on as damaged goods. Neither did I.

MayS, I don't know what saddlefitters charge where you are, but here, you can't get one out to look at a saddle and drop a panel and look at the tree for under $100. The saddle stood up to the basic flex tests for the tree. It has no blemishes on it to indicate previous trauma. Why would I think there was any reason to have a saddlefitter inspect it before selling it on?

When the buyer received the saddle, she complimented me on how well it had been shipped. I took that to mean that it arrived in perfect condition. I think if the box had been damaged, she'd have mentioned it by now.

[Aeternitee]

So far, buyer still hasn't produced any documentation from her saddler describing the supposed issue...I have to wonder why not? Surely she doesn't think I can just take her word for it?

[Schune]

Well, sounds like you're in a tough position.

I had something similar, although it was with a martingale and not a saddle. Still through Ebay though.

I'd been given a really nice Beval martingale from a relative for Christmas, but it was horse sized, and my mare needed a cob. So instead of punching a gazillion holes in it, I sold it on Ebay so I could take the money and buy a cob size one (relative had lost the receipt from the tackshop, so I couldn't exchange it; plus it was in a different state).

Well, for every item I sell on Ebay (and it's on average 1-2 a YEAR because of the fees Ebay now takes), I always take pictures of us right before I box it up. Then I time and date stamp it.

All went fine with the transaction with the buyer, but after the martingale arrives, I get a message stating that I hadn't disclosed a huge puncture in the raised leather. She wanted a partial refund so she could get it repaired at her local tackshop, and she even showed me in pictures. Sure enough, there was a nasty hole in the leather that had not been there when I shipped it.

Well, I knew this was a fraud or a scam. One, the martingale still had the tag on it and hadn't even been oiled. It was brand new from the store and I packaged that martingale beautifully. Bubble-wrapped and in a good box, with no room to rattle around or get damaged. I asked the buyer what condition the box was in, and she said it was fine; therefore, the hole must have been there before it shipped. Yeah, sure.

I told her no, since I had pictures of the martingale literally seconds before I closed up the box. To this day the only explanation that makes sense is that she damaged in on purpose, and wanted a discount on her price. Don't know why, though she might have figured she could make more money off it reselling.

I did take a look at her feedback, and though it wasn't perfect, most of the negatives were her complaining about the length of shipping.

[sdlbredfan]

Yes, I would love to know who this is, please PM me! (as Sarabeth said 'Consider sharing her eBay user name via PM so other saddle sellers will know to avoid her. Sellers won't be able to see anything suspicious by looking at her feedback since she completed her transaction with you outside ebay. Clever on her part')

[spotnnotfarm]

I am just curious, how long did she have the saddle before she reported the problem to you? Ditto the problems with paypal. They will side with the buyer. Good Luck!

[Aeternitee]

@spotnnot farm:
She supposedly had her saddler look at it the day after she received it. She says they didn't ride in it at all.

@sdlbredfan: I'm kind of concerned that giving her ebay name will be construed as libel or slander or something. (However, I'll feel a lot less compunction about that if, after I have the official saddler look at the saddle, they tell me there's nothing wrong with it.)

Currently: she has shipped the saddle back to me. I've told her that if it arrives in the same condition I sent it in (no marring, no blemishes) I will issue a refund. I just want DONE with this ugly situation.

So, if she did fabricate the story, she's getting what she wanted. However, I'm going to send the saddle on to the official saddler for this brand and have them look it over. I'll be very, very interested to hear what they have to say.

Still no word from the buyer's saddler.

Buyer threatened to escalate to a Paypal claim, and/or get her credit card company involved in a chargeback. I figure, if I get the saddle back in good condition and refund the money, I'll be back at square one with least amount of skin removed.

Let this be a lesson to all of us...seller beware requests to sell outside of Ebay? (though, honestly, I can see these same tactics working just as well for her within the context of Ebay.) What to do?!

Sadder but wiser Aeternitee.:(

[ExJumper]

Here's hoping that you get it back in the same condition you sent it out in!

I've been lucky enough to buy two saddles online (a Beval from eBay and a Prestige from TackTrader) and sell two saddles online (a Pessoa and reselling the Beval 2 years later, both on eBay) with no issue. I think I should be thanking my lucky stars right now! I even made money on the Beval...

[Aeternitee]

Well, for every item I sell on Ebay (and it's on average 1-2 a YEAR because of the fees Ebay now takes), I always take pictures of us right before I box it up. Then I time and date stamp it.


This is a brilliant idea! I could also have taken time-stamped video of me doing basic flex tests on the tree.
I'll be doing a lot more of this kind of thing next time I sell a saddle...:yes::yes:

[spotnnotfarm]

Are you going to re-list it? Maybe you could have your saddle fitter do a write up on it so it does not happen again. I would love to hear what your saddle guy says.

[Schune]

This is a brilliant idea! I could also have taken time-stamped video of me doing basic flex tests on the tree.
I'll be doing a lot more of this kind of thing next time I sell a saddle...:yes::yes:

It really can be a lifesaver, especially if things go sour with a transaction.

However, I guess if a buyer or scammer is really determined, they can make a big stink about how easy it is to falsify date stamps, change them, alter them, etc. etc.

But I think with most scammers or just persnickety buyers, if you tell them firmly that you did A, they now have B, and that's that, most will give up and go switch a con to someone else :yes::yes:

[asb_own_me]

But I think with most scammers or just persnickety buyers, if you tell them firmly that you did A, they now have B, and that's that, most will give up and go switch a con to someone else :yes::yes:

Agreed. I have bought and sold probably about a dozen saddles through eBay over the past decade. I've got nearly 300 feedbacks and 100% positive....and that helped me when a buyer lodged a complaint through eBay and PayPal over a Pessoa I'd sold her.

I documented the wear and tear on the saddle with pictures posted on the auction, as well as describing marks/nicks by size/placement within the auction text. Buyer gets saddle, buyer decides these tiny cosmetic marks aren't to her liking - even though there were about a dozen photos on the auction, plus my written disclosure.

eBay and PayPal reviewed her statement and mine (which told them to refer to the auction, that everything I had to say had been said - because I was HONEST) and they denied her claim. After all these years and all these transactions, that was the only bad experience I had with eBay, and it wasn't even "bad" because it was decided in my favor.

The OPs situation is different, as the integrity of the tree isn't usually something that can be spotted with a look at some photos online. I'd call her bluff. PayPal cannot refund her money AND let her keep the saddle....can they?