European Training methods... (starting young horses)

[Samotis]

I have been thinking lately about a few videos I have seen from European sales.

I was amazed at the 3 year olds that these riders were riding and how balanced and in the bridle they were. They seemed at ease and very balanced for such a young age.

What is a typical regimen for a young horse to be started for sale? I know that these sales show them undersaddle and light jumping.

I am just curious what these trainers/riders do to get these very young horses to be so balanced and in the bridle?

I really only have experience breaking young horses off the race track and as a kid showing them in the hunters you never really asked for a balanced frame. It was kind of a "go as they please" frame. I am seeing more and more that the hunters are changing into the horse going in more of a controlled frame.

When starting young horses is it better to not teach this frame right away, or is it actually a helpful tool to build the correct muscle tone and balance?

For those of you that have been to Europe or live there, what are the practices at these big sporthorse breeding farms for starting young horses?

[Samotis]

I am just curious what kind of training goes into these young horses at the age of 2 and 3 to get them ready for these auctions. I know they free jump as well. I am assuming they also teach them jumping through a chute at some point.

It seems like there is a really fine line between getting them to perform the way they do and pushing them too far physically, but obviously the training is a benefit as most of these wonderful horses go on to do great things in their adult life.

I haven't seen a thread about this before, but the search isn't great on coth, so if this has already been a discussion please send me in the right direction!

[EquusMagnificus]

I am also curious about this. :)

[Bats79]

I've certainly read people saying that it takes months, even years to "bring down" a young horse after it has been prepared for an auction or young horse competitions. Many top riders do NOT like the way these horses are started.

Also, more of the young stallions seem to be having serious problems with fertility in their first years at stud (others are extremely fertile though) but the pressures on immature skeletal structures that having a 2yo colt looking like a 5 year old stallion must create should cause some concern.

I guess the answer to your questions lies more with your long term plans for the horse. If you are preparing him for auction then you either send to a trainer who has a proven history in this kind of thing or you take the risk of presenting the horse in a less "common" way of going.

One group in Germany is marketing themselves as "Classical Sales" as they try to present horses with their long term training and health at the forefront.

http://www.csw-auction.com/

http://www.eurodressage.com/auctions/csw/results.html

I guess that means that there are many different ways of starting young horses in Germany just as there are in different countries.

[RougeEmpire]

Remember that THOSE young horses are NOT prepped for showing or a long term career. They are being prepped for one thing and one thing only, to SELL at auction. The sellers have no reason to care what happens to them after the they get the check. As long as the horses they bred and present bring acceptable prices is in reality all that matters. Its been long known that many of the young horses are pushed to hard and often suffer long term effects (much of which is mental) I have personally known servral horses that were bought at high end European auctions for large sums, shipped the the US and then went down hill quickly. But its a BUSINESS, always has been always will be. Its about quick results and high dollars.

[Kareen]

I would say most of the auction horses aren't started much different than any other youngster in this country. Most show-horses in this country start their performing career during their 3rd year of life and the material classes are pretty competitive and with the goal in mind to warrant a high sales price people obviously enter them into these classes with hopes to pin in or ideally win a few classes or maybe qualifying them for the bigger events later that year.

The main difference I see is most horses here will learn to lunge in sidereins and thus adapt an 'on the bit' (ideally) frame. Once they do wtc on the lungeline they will be backed pretty quickly and normally ride wtc off the lungeline in a similar frame after another 4-6 weeks depending on the horse and rider.
You don't have to start them prematurely in order to have them ready for one of the auctions in the summer or fall of their 3yo year.

The auction preparation time is indeed stressful for the horses and you want to make sure your horse arrives not only in perfect physical condition but also mentally prepared to handle all that is going on.

Most breeders know the process and will not even attempt to send horses that aren't mentally robust enough to come out fine. Afterall nobody wants a ruined sale because the horse gets panfried in the process right?
That being said I don't say everything that goes on is right or correct. It's just not much different from what's done with most sporthorses around here.

I can't say it takes months or years to bring them 'down' after an auction. I have picked a lot of horses at auctions and all of them turned out just fine with just a careful retraining and/or rehabbing programme. Of course there are some that will be pulled out on the way and those sometimes turn into serious retraining cases but I think in most of these cases it was a bad choice to send them in to begin with as any breeder should know it's a tough game out there and if I have the slightest doubt whether or not my entry will hold up to the stresses of the procedure I would always chose not to present them. Not worth risking a promising young horse being injured in body or mind...

[WBLover]

One thing that also must be considered is the QUALITY of these horses. Yes, maybe they are started and pushed a bit faster in order to sell, but these horses are BUILT and BRED for dressage and it comes a lot easier to them naturally.

I knew someone who regularly purchased and imported horses from these auctions and there wasn't a whole lot of down time until they could be started up again at a slower pace. Maybe 3-4 weeks, but the majority of the down time was needed because of the import & traveling process itself, not training. She never had any soundness issues from any of them, and knew that most went on to the upper levels quite successfully.

[Tiki]

One thing that I see as a major difference between 'properly' starting dressage horses and starting hunters, TB's and others is that the hunter/TB people start the horses off with no contact. They go, they steer, they stop, but when you try to get them going forward - and forward does NOT equate to fast - and in contact - and contact does NOT equate to pulling their nose into their chest - they balk and sometimes buck. A 'properly' started dressage horse (and I know some of you guys are going to take this the wrong way) is started with at least some degree of contact. You should ALWAYS ride the horse the way you want it to go in the end. The difference between a young 3yo and a GP horse is the degree of contact or frame or collection. You always ride the horse from back to front, but you ALWAYS ride it into your hand, not just into 'space'. As the horse develops, it comes more onto the hindquarters, but the relative contact stays about the same, light, but there. Obviously, there's a lot more to it, but that's one of the basic differences I see. I just don't think it's fair to start the horse with no contact, head level with the withers, doping along, then, all of a sudden it's, "Hey horse, wake up! It's time to go 'in a frame' and go to work". And then 'the frame' consists of pulling the horse's head into place while the hind end is somewhere out in the next county. I believe that's very similar to what Kareen is basically describing.

[Home Again Farm]

The main difference I see is most horses here will learn to lunge in sidereins and thus adapt an 'on the bit' (ideally) frame. Once they do wtc on the lungeline they will be backed pretty quickly and normally ride wtc off the lungeline in a similar frame after another 4-6 weeks depending on the horse and rider.

My trainer starts all my youngsters this way. They learn to go correctly from the start by being driven up to a quietly receiving hand, being encouraged to balance themselves and being taught forward from the very beginning.

[PineTreeFarm]

One thing that I see as a major difference between 'properly' starting dressage horses and starting hunters, TB's and others is that the hunter/TB people start the horses off with no contact. They go, they steer, they stop, but when you try to get them going forward - and forward does NOT equate to fast - and in contact - and contact does NOT equate to pulling their nose into their chest - they balk and sometimes buck. A 'properly' started dressage horse (and I know some of you guys are going to take this the wrong way) is started with at least some degree of contact. You should ALWAYS ride the horse the way you want it to go in the end. The difference between a young 3yo and a GP horse is the degree of contact or frame or collection. You always ride the horse from back to front, but you ALWAYS ride it into your hand, not just into 'space'. As the horse develops, it comes more onto the hindquarters, but the relative contact stays about the same, light, but there. Obviously, there's a lot more to it, but that's one of the basic differences I see. I just don't think it's fair to start the horse with no contact, head level with the withers, doping along, then, all of a sudden it's, "Hey horse, wake up! It's time to go 'in a frame' and go to work". And then 'the frame' consists of pulling the horse's head into place while the hind end is somewhere out in the next county. I believe that's very similar to what Kareen is basically describing.
I guess it all depends on what discipline you're involved in.
" You should always ride the horse the way you want it to go in the end'
No joke but for a hunter that's going to be LIGHT contact so those horses are being started the way they will be showing. Their head WILL be close to level with their withers. High headed is a bad, bad thing.
I've never had a hunter prospect object by balking or bucking to use of contact. But I can imagine a few that would if a dressage rider crammed their head to their chest or leaned backwards pulling with all their might on the reins. LOL
The frame is different depending on the discipline.
Some of the Euro horses brought here to be shown as hunters require some retraining to get a more natural head carraige.

[retrofit]

Excellent post, Tiki! And that is also why I am not a big believer in using a 'cowboy' to break a future dressage horse.

[Equilibrium]

I agree with Tiki too.

We don't use side reins, but I do us a DeGogue within reason. Meaning I don't crank the head down to his/her chest. They learn pretty quickly where the head needs to be and are also allowed to stretch through the back and hindquarters. We also spend quite a bit of driving in the early days before I get on each time and this does help with an overall balance in getting the head down. But they do need to learn early contact and how to go forward "in the bridle."

Each horse is different and mature physically and mentally in different time frames. For every horse you see at the auction I'm sure the breeder had a few back home that couldn't make the young horse program, but is still a nice horse. That particular one will just be a bit later. I really thought my 3yo Dutch/TB cross would be easy to come to hand and not get that much bigger than she was this summer. How and ever in September she started a huge growth spurt and I've backed off her for the winter.

Terri

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Monica is riding 4 year olds in England for Tim Stockdale that she is impressed with- they are not prepped for the auctions, they are prepped for long term careers as show jumpers and can wtc, counter canter, do lateral work, and do it all in a lovely frame. They are started the same- long lining and some lunging in side reins or the Pessoa. They aren't overly jumped, but when they are jumped about 1x a week, they are jumped proper height. The expectations seem to be greater than we have had for our jumpers and may now step it up when she returns here.

[Moocow]

First off, I didn't read every post, so sorry if I'm repeating some stuff...

I think it really depends on the person starting/preparing the horse for the auction as to how it will be trained. Some people will rush through it for sure just to get the horse sold, but that is not always the case. I was asked to prepare a young horse straight out of a field for the Zangersheide free jumping competition this summer. I was given two weeks. First trial run through the chute was not pretty! So, long story short, I ended up breaking the nervous girl (she needed to learn to not be afraid of the bit!) and she came in second! She lost points because her face was one that only a mother could love, but she got a standing ovation and was the crowd fav for sure!

Also, having worked both in Europe and with a rider that has a very 'Euro' mindset (at least that's what I like to call it) I don't think it's ever been more than two weeks of lunging before we broke a horse... Never had any side reins, no long lining, just taught them to move forward in a relaxed manner. Our process: Teach them how to lunge, basic woah, woah-stay, walk, trot, canter, etc. pop on the saddle, teach them that no matter what, they must ALWAYS move forward - never give them a chance to rear. They can buck, but they better be moving forward and bucking. Pop on the rider. Tada! Another thing that I found popular was the 'shock' factor. If you break a horse quickly (of course it depends on the horse - you can't do this with all of them!) they're a bit shocked so don't even have time to think of how to be bad. .. until later, sometimes.

As for 'framing' I think that if you teach a young horse from the start that forward motion is key, then they naturally will start to go into a frame, providing that there is the right amount of leg and hand contact combination coming from the rider. Some horses will require a touch more from either side, but overall I think that the back-to-front mindset (as mentioned a few times on here) will bring a young horse into proper form easily enough. Learning to go forward like this and balancing themselves, most will do auto lead changes right from the start as well. :D

[Tiki]

Posted by PineTreeFarm I guess it all depends on what discipline you're involved in. Exactly, which is why I'll never let a hunter trainer start any horses for me and why you don't want a dressage trainer to start horses for you.

What we're talking about is the proper starting of dressage horses. If you let them go in a hunter frame and a year down the road say, "Oh no, sorry horse, that's not the way I really want you to go - I just wanted to make your life easy while I got you started - now you have to learn to go truly forward, carry yourself and learn to carry the weight on your hind end". Well, now you're in for a problem.

Also from PineTreeFarm most will do auto lead changes right from the start as well. :D And here's the REALLY big problem for a dressage horse. Dressage horses must do the flying changes from collection and first they have to learn counter canter. A horse that does hunter changes will change at will when you change the direction - all strung out - and it will be very difficult to teach counter canter when they first learn to change leads every time you even thing about changing direction.

[YankeeLawyer]

As a former H/J rider I would prefer to have any of my youngsters started with a dressage foundation and then go on to specialize from there. I want my hunters carrying themselves also - there is nothing worse than cantering down to a big fence with a horse on its forehand. Nothing.

[Samotis]

Tiki, thanks, I do agree with you about a lot of hunters. We would never make them frame up and as I look back, I think that caused some problems!

So basically most horses that are started, start right away with contact? Started with side reins or a pessoa rig and then backed when ready?

that sounds like a good way to start a young horse. I am from the west and many people send their warmbloods to cowboys to teach them how to "go forward."

I have a young horse and don't want to do that. I want him to learn contact, but not in an uncomfortable way.

By teaching them the forward motion on the lunge line, I suppose it will translate when you ride them.

I suppose any auction will have the horses that are worked too hard. I have been to keenland and those yearlings look like grown horses! Give them 3 months in a field and you wouldn't even recognize them!

I am trying to see many sides of starting young horses, so I make the right decision when I start mine next year!

I was just so shocked when I saw that video of a young 3 year old trotting around in a beautiful frame with such presence!! It really got me thinking about the tactics these trainers use to get them ready like that!

[Samotis]

After riding a lot of hunters in the last few years, I would prefer one with a slight dressage backround.

I would rather have a horse that can collect and be balanced and learn that way of going.

my junior hunter was a tb and basically went in a straight line. hated connection, wanted to just poke his nose. he did very well, but would have done better and lasted longer had he been trained to use himself better.

[Claudius]

I am starting my three year old and loved hearing these opinions.

[Crosiadore Farm]

We have a excellent young Danish rider that has started 12 young horses for us over the last two years.

We start between two and three years of age, depending on the maturity/conformation of the horse. Some are ready sooner, some a year later.

All the young horses are started in a round pen with a halter. Once they have the general idea of what is expected of them....going forward...... we introduce the bridle, halter is still on top, and halter is connected to the lunge line. Once that goes well, we use the bridle only for lunging. Once that is understood, extremely loose side reins are attached. As the horse progresses, the side reins are shortened. Depending on the horse, this has taken between two weeks and three months. But if this routine is followed and not rushed, the introduction of "contact" is not a big thing. Once they understand a bit of contact and know stop and go, they are backed. And once they have confirmed brakes, they are hacked. Of course this all requires a confident and more experienced rider......but those are the only ones that should be on young horses. Every experience for the young horse has to be positive one.

Also forgot to add, we do free jumping with all the young ones once a week,

[Jsalem]

I'm a hunter trainer and we've been really successful with horses started out as dressage horses. They're a dream for us. I'm enjoying this thread, as I've wondered myself how the Europeans start their horses. I love 'em!

[Samotis]

I am certainly keeping the "maturity and conformation" in mind.

My guy will be 2 in Feb. He showed in 1 show in hand this year and already understands the lunging concept.

I started him walking and light trotting with the halter and he has been in a bridle for the shows. He has been on turnout only since September and am still debating when to start him back into light excercise.

I don't plan on riding him for while, but I thought that walk/trot would benefit him in his 2 year old year before I break him?

I would assume that the lunging is used not only for getting the horse in the bit, but also to build up correct muscling in the back, topline, etc...


Please keep the tips coming. I like to hear all the different training techniques used for young horses.

Some people mentioned 3 year old jumping classes in Germany. What do these classes consist of? Is it mainly flatwork and gymnastics, or do they include small jumper type courses?

I know that in the US we have the IHF and IJF. The hunters jump around small courses as 3 year olds while the jumper futurity doesn't start until 4 and they are developmental classes that include gymnastics and flatwork. But then the jumper futurity drastically goes up to 3'9 for 5 year olds and over 4 foot for the 6 year olds.

[YankeeLawyer]

Samotis, there is a really good book on starting youngsters by Pippa Funnell, British 3-Day eventer.

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Young-Horse-Pippa-Funnell/dp/0715321498/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257816658&sr=1-2

[ponygirl]

There is a method called hand-saddle-hand that a gentleman named Fritz Stahlecker created and it's a method friends in Germany use to start their horses. His DVDs are excellent.

http://www.trot-online.co.uk/Fritz-Stahlecker-In-Hand-Work-For-Young-Dressage-Horses-2-DVD-Set-Basics-and-Advanced

[Samotis]

I really do like the dressage trained hunters better.

I never really got it when I was a kid, I just did the point and shoot and it worked well for me.

As I got older and started to fine tune, it really helps when the horse is supple and in a frame.

Now, I have ridden hunters that were dressage bred that were wayyy too uphill for hunters, but it taught me the concept of how balance helps the overall performance of the hunter.

It seems that most European training methods involve some kind of lunging system like the pessoa rig and really keep them engaged from behind and balanced.

It also helps that most of those German guys are 6'4! ;)

[dressurpferd01]

No German that I know uses a Pessoa system. The Pessoa system is widely frowned on by dressage riders, and laughed at by Europeans.

Proper starting of youngsters is simple. Lunge in bridle briefly. Add saddle, let horse adjust. Add side reins long enough that horse probably won't notice them. Gradually shorten side reins until horse is comfortable in a decent training level outline. Continue until horse is completely ok in this work. Gradually introduce rider to horse, start with leaning over back, then move to sitting on, gradually introduce moving with rider on back. First walk, then walk little trot, then trot on big circle, finally canter.

Of course this can take anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 years (really, 2 years). I was sitting on my mare after literally a week and half of lungeing, but she's an orphan and has zero fear. I worked with a couple Traks in FL that couldn't be sat on after 2 years of work. Most of the Hano's I've been working with are averaging about 2-3 weeks of lungeing before starting to sit on them. As long as they are comfy in side reins, riding them forward into a steady light contact will result in a horse that is comfortable going in a soft round frame from the start.

All the rest is balancing them and teaching them bend. Then you add in changes in tempo, etc. Really, if you are a balanced, soft rider, starting youngsters is the easiest part.

[Samotis]

Good, so this leads to my next question...


I have heard that the "pessoa" system isn't used widely in Europe. I see people that use it and I have used it before, but as some people point out, it doesn't give with the horses mouth. This could cause many potential problems and it seems this may help a few select horses, but not the majority.

So because the Europeans use lunging, they only use side reins? Surcingle have so many settings, what do you start with and what techniques give the best results?

What actually starts the engagement? The side reins with controlled lunging, or a rider? Is it a combination?

I have also seen people use chambons with a surcingle to get the horse to stretch and use their neck and back.

There are so many methods, it more of finding out why people train the way they do so anyone that starts young horses has the tools to choose what ways would work best with their particular horse.

dressurpferd, I like your methods, but how often do you train these young horses? When do you take a step back and when do you know when to go forward. I am able to see when a horse is comfortable doing something, but how do you not do too much or too little? Also when you start to ride the young horses, what do you do to get them to understand leg pressure and staying forward in the bridle?

Thank you for your help and I love hearing everyones methods!

[dressurpferd01]

Just from my experience, I've never seen or heard of a good trainer using the pessoa system, as I said, it's kind of a joke.

When I lunge, I don't use a surcingle. I usually get the horse used to a saddle on the ground, and then start lungeing them in it without side reins to start. When starting side reins, they should go at the top of girth; between the billet keeper on the pad and the leg flap on the saddle.

The horse should be going plenty forward on the lunge line to start. That's something I've always emphasized with the babies, forward.

Never used a chambon, though have seen them used (but not on babies), too gadgety for me.

I just take it day by day with babies. You can see when they are struggling or getting bored. When they start getting bored, you step it up a notch.

To get them forward off the leg... I always start them undersaddle attached to a lunge line with someone in the middle with a lunge whip. Of course to start they have no idea what the leg means. When the leg is backed up with the lunge whip, they begin to understand. Once the understand that basic, I will start carrying a short, stiff whip and back up my leg with the whip. It's one of the biggest thing I emphasize with the babies is that they be light off the leg. I can't stand lazy horses in general, let alone lazy babies. They usually don't understand contact with the bit at first, but usually within a couple weeks, they're going quite nicely.

Basically, I had a very classical start to my training which focused a lot on starting youngsters. I then worked for quite awhile with a German trainer who had some slightly different insights, and I've kind of integrated it all into my own system at this point. I'm quite happy with how my babies get going, and so are the people who buy them. I've never had anyone complain about the horses I've started.

[YankeeLawyer]

I never have used a Pessoa rig or a chambon, nor do any of my trainers use them. My observation is that they create an artificial frame - not true engagement - among other problems.

Regarding side reins, I do use them, but with youngsters ONLY after I am confident the youngster is longeing reliably and that there is little or no risk the horse will resist the side reins - and then I only use them loosely. I have seen youngsters put in side reins before they were ready and flip over backwards. Not pretty.

[alexandra]

[...] I just don't think it's fair to start the horse with no contact, head level with the withers, doping along, then, all of a sudden it's, "Hey horse, wake up! It's time to go 'in a frame' and go to work". And then 'the frame' consists of pulling the horse's head into place while the hind end is somewhere out in the next county. I believe that's very similar to what Kareen is basically describing.

No that is not what she meant: What we do is the following. Mostly the horses are on the loungeline without any side reins for a week or two depending on how they will do. Starting first often with a halter over bridle and longeline in the halter. Than we start with loose longer sidereins. so that the horses realises there is some sort of pressure on the bit. Than this is shortened eventually but always people look after a working hindend by Using their whips aswell (not hitting hard on the horse but using it as an regular aid just as later on the legs).
Finally the horse is used to pressure on the bit and to go in a frame (whis can take also from one week to three or longer depending on the horse). And than as Kareen described people get on the and ride them quite quickly without longeline WTC aorund the arena and in a frame. I have often made the experience that riding in a frame makes it esier for them to balance them out. Well and riding in a frame can be much eser for preventing a young horse from bucking because yu have already contact to the bit nd if the horse starts to put the hed down as preparation for bucking you are pretty fast to get the head up again and stop the slighest start of bucking with that...

[alexandra]

Good, so this leads to my next question...


I have heard that the "pessoa" system isn't used widely in Europe. I see people that use it and I have used it before, but as some people point out, it doesn't give with the horses mouth. This could cause many potential problems and it seems this may help a few select horses, but not the majority.

So because the Europeans use lunging, they only use side reins? Surcingle have so many settings, what do you start with and what techniques give the best results?

What actually starts the engagement? The side reins with controlled lunging, or a rider? Is it a combination?

I have also seen people use chambons with a surcingle to get the horse to stretch and use their neck and back.

There are so many methods, it more of finding out why people train the way they do so anyone that starts young horses has the tools to choose what ways would work best with their particular horse.

dressurpferd, I like your methods, but how often do you train these young horses? When do you take a step back and when do you know when to go forward. I am able to see when a horse is comfortable doing something, but how do you not do too much or too little? Also when you start to ride the young horses, what do you do to get them to understand leg pressure and staying forward in the bridle?

Thank you for your help and I love hearing everyones methods!

A lot of pro barns make life easy and use just the regular reins as side reins when the horse has come further along and knows a shorter connection and longing ist just used to get them loosing/warming up before one sits for on them...Maybe another miracle. they ride them mostly only a short time per day but that regularly.

[alexandra]

No German that I know uses a Pessoa system. The Pessoa system is widely frowned on by dressage riders, and laughed at by Europeans.

Proper starting of youngsters is simple. Lunge in bridle briefly. Add saddle, let horse adjust. Add side reins long enough that horse probably won't notice them. Gradually shorten side reins until horse is comfortable in a decent training level outline. Continue until horse is completely ok in this work. Gradually introduce rider to horse, start with leaning over back, then move to sitting on, gradually introduce moving with rider on back. First walk, then walk little trot, then trot on big circle, finally canter.

Of course this can take anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 years (really, 2 years). I was sitting on my mare after literally a week and half of lungeing, but she's an orphan and has zero fear. I worked with a couple Traks in FL that couldn't be sat on after 2 years of work. Most of the Hano's I've been working with are averaging about 2-3 weeks of lungeing before starting to sit on them. As long as they are comfy in side reins, riding them forward into a steady light contact will result in a horse that is comfortable going in a soft round frame from the start.

All the rest is balancing them and teaching them bend. Then you add in changes in tempo, etc. Really, if you are a balanced, soft rider, starting youngsters is the easiest part.

I did not see your post before I posted... It describes exaclty how it is done.

And what is a pessoa system ??? (I have just made my FN bronze medal fo longing. There was not any hint at all in the theoretical part on anything else than side reins in variations and Chambon to be used with longing. And proper longing in the german FN Thinking alwayshas to be WITH some sort of sidereins or something else because longing without anything is only considered as something to make your horse "run/move" a in put it into a paddock or in the field instead of working it.

[Equilibrium]

Explain to me this, what is a "false frame" and I always love people who don't do gadgets, but side reins are just fine.

I set about to find an aid that allowed my horse to flex from the poll, to want to move forward and to stretch the back and work from the hocks. To me side reins say, "this is how you go end of story." And I don't think the Europeans laugh about it considering it's used quite often often over here in Ireland. OK maybe not Germany, but Europe is bigger than Germany. Or maybe this is more of a jumper gadget. I know one thing, the De Gouge teaches them that if head is up in the wrong position, pressure is put on the poll. They learn quickly where to keep their head so they are able to work and stretch comfortably. Don't knock what you haven't tried. I get more benefits from the De Gouge than I do in side reins.

Terri

[YankeeLawyer]

Explain to me this, what is a "false frame" and I always love people who don't do gadgets, but side reins are just fine.

I set about to find an aid that allowed my horse to flex from the poll, to want to move forward and to stretch the back and work from the hocks. To me side reins say, "this is how you go end of story." And I don't think the Europeans laugh about it considering it's used quite often often over here in Ireland. OK maybe not Germany, but Europe is bigger than Germany. Or maybe this is more of a jumper gadget. I know one thing, the De Gouge teaches them that if head is up in the wrong position, pressure is put on the poll. They learn quickly where to keep their head so they are able to work and stretch comfortably. Don't knock what you haven't tried. I get more benefits from the De Gouge than I do in side reins.

Terri

I have seen the Pessoa and Chambon used; I just said I choose not to use them. I have never seen a dressage trainer use them. I have seen jumper trainers use them (as I mentioned, that is my background). I am not a big fan of side reins, either, and only use them sparingly. And in particular I do not think "gadgets" are appropriate for most youngsters as part of their initial backing and training.

[Samotis]

the de gogue is similiar to the chambon. I have used both a few times. The de gogue also puts pressure on the nose instead of just the poll like the chambon.

The chambon did wonders on my flighty tb mare, but my gelding hated it.

So from what you guys have all been saying, it sounds like with enough lunge foundation and light side rein work, eventually this will help the young horse move into the bit and be more willing when undersadle.

I too have seen young horses try to flip over from side reins. You have to be really careful to not panic them with contact too soon.

Alexandra,
Congratulations on your accomplishments! I am so impressed that there are programs/studies for you to learn the proper way of training and riding horses. Is this seminar/course? What do these lectures and classes consist of? It sounds great!

[Kareen]

Can anybody elaborate on the Pessoa system? I'd be particularly interested in whether and what kind of dressage goals it involves because Pessoa's horses strike me as a lot but not as being particularly skilled in dressage... I haven't had any exposure to the system and never heard anybody laugh at it either so I have no clue.

[andy.smaga]

http://www.horsetackreview.com/review-display/545.html
http://www.romfh.com/files/ssparagraph/f233191508/pessoa_system.pdf
http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/tudas/publication/felszereles/20080228220416618000000739.html

[Sunnydays]

We (I'm using the Royal "we" - I mean "my trainer") use the same approach as described by dressurpferd1 and Alexandra, so the horse understands forward, in a soft frame. The ground and lunge work is a prelude to the undersaddle, and sets expectations and comfort zone. Most hanoverians move from lunge to undersaddle after about 3 weeks (some variation) and the undersaddle work is just a "next step" in what they know, so it is not a big deal. Usually we start them in their third year, and work 15 minutes to 20 minutes per session, 3 or 4 times a week. By 4 years of age they are mentally and physically prepared to do 1/2 hour, 5 times per week, and go from there.
Wow - just saw the "Pessoa" rigging in Andy's pictures. Kinda scary (don't try this at home) for the uninitiated. Interesting ...

[Tiki]

Alexandra - you completely misunderstood to whom I was addressing my answer - not Kareen, but PineTreeFarm who rides her horses with no contact, with the head level with the withers and not forward - basically as a hunter.

To Samotis Started with side reins or a pessoa rig EEEEKKKKKKKKK!!!!! to the pessoa rig!!!:no::no::mad: That is the quintessential razor in the monkey's hands. I know someone who calls herself a trainer who uses a pessoa rig on all her horses. It's a very, very poor excuse to get a horse to bring it's hind end under itself (only while in the rig if you really watch them both in and out of the rig) for someone who doesn't really understand how to lunge. The pessoa rig has way too many points of 'pressure'. You must really, really know what you are doing to know where to attach the lines and at what height. I was told by a top, classical trainer, that yes, he had used the rig, but very carefully and only on a horse that had a proprioception problem. That is, one who seemed not to have any idea of where his legs really were in relation to his body. The rig was used only as an aid to help him 'find his legs'. PLEASE don't just go out and buy one and slap in on your poor horse.

As to side reins. I have no problem with them - used properly, but don't ever think that short side reins are the answer to teaching the horse to balance. First the horse has to go forward. And be very, very careful lungeing a young horse. Lungeing on a small circle (and yes, for a young horse the length of the lunge line is too small) can cause unbelieveable stress on their incompletely closed joints. Yes, they learn to go forward on the lunge. But they can learn to go forward in tack being free lunged in a closed in riding school. The side reins need to give complete freedom of the head at first and merely guide the horse to go straight. Once the horse is going forward, you can start to shorten them.

[PineTreeFarm]

I have seen the Pessoa and Chambon used; I just said I choose not to use them. I have never seen a dressage trainer use them. I have seen jumper trainers use them (as I mentioned, that is my background). I am not a big fan of side reins, either, and only use them sparingly. And in particular I do not think "gadgets" are appropriate for most youngsters as part of their initial backing and training.

Yes, they are used by a number of jumper trainers. The two worst jumping accidents that I've seen were caused by a horse getting a leg through a side rein that had slipped way down the girth and the other was a chambon that was adjusted incorrectly and did not allow the horse to use it's head and neck when it tried to jump from a really bad spot. Both accidents were in the schooling ring.
Neither 'gadget' was being used in the normal way at the time of the accidents.

[Daydream Believer]

Does anyone but me use a lunging cavesson to connect side reins or balancing reins (sliding side reins) to before ever attaching them to the bit? I bought the HSH system as someone posted above and it's the nicest most padded cavesson ever, super comfy for the horses, and is meant to be used with a sliding siderein setup. I really really like the effect of using the sidereins on the cavesson versus the bit...it's much gentler and the horses seem to be more relaxed and less likely to come behind the bit as an evasion and it encourages good posture and rounding of the back.

What I'll do then is progress from lunging to, double line lunging, to long lining and then to in-hand work in this set up...I'll use the bit and the sidereins are still on the cavesson. I have my first "class" now going in this arrangement (versus traditionally used sidereins) and so far, I'm really liking it. I'm in absolutely no hurry either...if I had a horse I had to turn around in 90 days, I'd probably not take this much time on the ground but since these are my babies (all but one and I have him all winter) I'm taking it slow.

[luvmydutch]

Daydreambeliever...what an EXCELLENT idea for training progression! I need to start keeping notes on things like this for when I start working my baby! I'm cavesson shopping now :lol:

[luvmydutch]

Could you post a link to the cavesson you are using by any chance?

[Daydream Believer]

Could you post a link to the cavesson you are using by any chance?

Sure...here is his equipment page.

http://www.hsh-fritz-stahlecker.de/Equipment.23.0.html?&L=1

This is his site with some discussion of his methods and philosophy. I'm not doing his method "straight" but rather incorporating it into some of what I already do and I love his equipment.

http://www.hsh-fritz-stahlecker.de/Fritz-Stahlecker.2.0.html?&L=1

[retrofit]

Explain to me this, what is a "false frame" and I always love people who don't do gadgets, but side reins are just fine.

I set about to find an aid that allowed my horse to flex from the poll, to want to move forward and to stretch the back and work from the hocks. To me side reins say, "this is how you go end of story." And I don't think the Europeans laugh about it considering it's used quite often often over here in Ireland. OK maybe not Germany, but Europe is bigger than Germany. Or maybe this is more of a jumper gadget. I know one thing, the De Gouge teaches them that if head is up in the wrong position, pressure is put on the poll. They learn quickly where to keep their head so they are able to work and stretch comfortably. Don't knock what you haven't tried. I get more benefits from the De Gouge than I do in side reins.

Terri

I haven't seen this addressed yet so I'll take a stab at it.

Obviously, "false frame" is cranking the neck in while the hind end is trailing, back not swinging.

And I agree there is some hypocrisy in decrying 'gadgets' yet advocating side reins.

The reason most people advocate side reins is that if you lunge correctly, the horse is already being driven off his hind end into properly adjusted (not too tight) side reins, so it is the same as riding him into a receiving hand. That's why I love the elastic-y side reins - more forgiving.

I also used a chambon with one conformationally-challenged youngster. Her neck was set on low and was quite flexible (to my detriment), and she would just suck it up & back in side reins ... hard to explain unless you saw the visual. She was a hotter type and definitely needed help learning to relax, so the chambon helped her figure out how to put her head down, and then she would take a nice deep breath & would slow down her rhythm, loosen her back, etc. It's not for every horse but it certainly helped her get the idea.

I guess my point is, every gadget can create a 'fake frame' but yet they all have their place if used correctly. The results are the true test!

[luvmydutch]

He says to start horses as early as 2 1/2 ... do you start them this early?

[luvmydutch]

He says to start horses as early as 2 1/2 ... do you start them with ground lines this early?

[YankeeLawyer]

Daydream Believer - I have several cavessons and a few different surcingles which I also use from time to time. When buying cavessons, take care to make sure the hardware on the noseband does not make it too heavy. I have one that is gorgeous to look at but unfortunately the noseband weighs so much I would never use it.

[ponygirl]

Does anyone but me use a lunging cavesson to connect side reins or balancing reins (sliding side reins) to before ever attaching them to the bit? I bought the HSH system as someone posted above and it's the nicest most padded cavesson ever, super comfy for the horses, and is meant to be used with a sliding siderein setup. I really really like the effect of using the sidereins on the cavesson versus the bit...it's much gentler and the horses seem to be more relaxed and less likely to come behind the bit as an evasion and it encourages good posture and rounding of the back.

What I'll do then is progress from lunging to, double line lunging, to long lining and then to in-hand work in this set up...I'll use the bit and the sidereins are still on the cavesson. I have my first "class" now going in this arrangement (versus traditionally used sidereins) and so far, I'm really liking it. I'm in absolutely no hurry either...if I had a horse I had to turn around in 90 days, I'd probably not take this much time on the ground but since these are my babies (all but one and I have him all winter) I'm taking it slow.


No, I do. My original post shows that you and I use the same method and seem to like the same set of DVDs by the same gentleman. I guess my post was missed.

[Daydream Believer]

No, I do. My original post shows that you and I use the same method and seem to like the same set of DVDs by the same gentleman. I guess my post was missed.

I don't think they could see the cavesson well in your link was all.

How long have you been using the HSH method? I am very impressed with the quality of the equipment. My only complaint is that the holes in the reins don't have numbers stamped in the leather. It's a bugger to count them each time you put them on.

[YankeeLawyer]

This is how you teach a youngster to balance and rhythm. And while doing that, they teach a horse to seek the bit. Just because their head and neck set is with their poll flexed and face just in front of the vertical, doesn't mean the horse is coming through or being collected. Nothing could be further from the truth. Collection does not come from the head and neck position - collection comes purely from the hind end. The position you are seeing is merely the horse correctly coming into contact into the hand. A lot of people cannot seem to tell the difference.

.

Exactly

[grayarabpony]

They spend a lot of time just doing the basics of walk, trot, canter, in big gentle circles and across diagonal directional changes, just allowing the horse time to settle into each gait. This is how you teach a youngster to balance and rhythm. And while doing that, they teach a horse to seek the bit. Just because their head and neck set is with their poll flexed and face just in front of the vertical, doesn't mean the horse is coming through or being collected. Nothing could be further from the truth. Collection does not come from the head and neck position - collection comes purely from the hind end. The position you are seeing is merely the horse correctly coming into contact into the hand. A lot of people cannot seem to tell the difference.



I agree, and that sounds like a lovely way to start youngsters.

[luvmydutch]

This is so funny, I literally JUST sent the volume 1 dvd back to barn sweet barn dvd (my horsie rental co.) ... and I loved it. I searched everywhere for a cavesson like he uses and low and behold...here it is. I know what I am asking for for Christmas.

[luvmydutch]

Will they ship from Germany to the USA? Anyone know?

[alexandra]

the de gogue is similiar to the chambon. I have used both a few times. The de gogue also puts pressure on the nose instead of just the poll like the chambon.

The chambon did wonders on my flighty tb mare, but my gelding hated it.

So from what you guys have all been saying, it sounds like with enough lunge foundation and light side rein work, eventually this will help the young horse move into the bit and be more willing when undersadle.

I too have seen young horses try to flip over from side reins. You have to be really careful to not panic them with contact too soon.

Alexandra,
Congratulations on your accomplishments! I am so impressed that there are programs/studies for you to learn the proper way of training and riding horses. Is this seminar/course? What do these lectures and classes consist of? It sounds great!


O.k. You can make a lot of medals that are "invented" by the FN. You can do them in riding, driving, vaulting and loungelining (what is the verb ?).
The FN sets the requirements for the theoretical and practical test in their so called APO (Ausbildungsprüfungsordnung). This is basically a rule book for education. It rules all these medals but also the professional education e.g. for Bereiter, riding instructor or amateur riding instructors but also for judges I think.

For loungelining we have three medals and they have different goals and contants. It starts with basics in the lowest (You have to know why one does longelining, what kind of equipment has or can be used, you have to know about the movements of the horse e.g. phases of walk etc etc. All these detailed information can be found in the Richtlinien Reiten and Fahren (also available in english - www.fn-verlag.de) And there in volume 4 I believe. Richtlinien could be translated into guidelines I guess and describes the theoretical background for riding, driving etc. E.g. the Skala der Ausbildung (scale of education) with it "steps" Rhythm, looseness, swing, Anlehnung (no idea what it translates to), and "streightening", collection has to be known because all of the german riding (also driving and longelineing) is based on these principles.
The practicle part of the test is based on the theoretical level of that medal. You also learn in the theoretical part what/which riding issues you can overcome with what kind of longeline work. So it gives a clear pictures on the principles of riding theorie. For the silver level e.g. you have to longeline in longreins.
Courses for these medals can be found everywhere for the riding medals. The riding clubs offer courses mostly in wintertimes and all of the big name riding schools like Verden, Vechta, Münster have clinics over one to two weeks (depending on which medal you are archieving). For the riding medals you have to do a dressage test AND jumping course plus the theory test.
For the driving medals it is a bit more difficult to find courses and places but you find them. For the longing it is even more difficult. Either one of the riding schools or if you are lucky and find an educated person one can squeeze in the medal test in the regular tests that e.g. one of the riding clubs have.

I did that: I asked the person who held such a riding medal course if I could join for longeline and he said that he would be sure that I would only need one or two sessions because for what I have done for years this is the regular tools so to say (which is obviously some of the goals of the medals - to mirror the way how people and horses learn riding and document your level of education with this medal. It is not supposed to give any complete different insights than what is regularly tought all over Germany in riding lessons).
All this may be the miracle of Germany - riding and breeding. This complete system of riding theorie, organised education everything working hand in hand together !

Coming back to my loungeline medal: I had to learn some of the theory from the books because I was not 100% sure of the details. I met my riding trainer twice (he is is Meister Blacksmith and Meister for riding !).
He showed me some of the important things the judges would look at: e.g. that the horse is never loose while you change the sides with the longeline or that you know how to adjust sidereins correctly, or that you know to use glooves, or how to hold the whip. But as I am longing a lot and learnt it according to german riding theory there was nothing really new in it for me and I did not train anything specificly - just went to the test and scored something above 75%. COld have been more because they gave me some critique on seomthing that I did not do. They thought I did not hold my horse while changing the longeline to the other side. but they could not see it, because I was standing in front of that. (grrr. should have asekd me how I am doing it or for a second time) but who cares, I just wanted to do this medal as a check of my own level/for the fun of it (And because I really want to do the silver one with the longreins for which you need to have the other ones...)

We have just discovered/discussed this past weekend that there are lesser and lesser young people that grow up in the same way as we did. No older people watching each and every step and correcting them. Not always regular riding lessons. More "selfannounced" trainers, with no FN education at all etc. etc. So a lot of the things in these medal tests are not anymore "normal" for people but something they have to learn specificly. I e.g. was astonished and ashamed in the theoretical part of the test of the answers the riding medal people were givingto questions that for me were totally clear and simple. this is not to stress how good I am but I really saw that the level of everyday things we grew up with is not as normal anymore.

[Daydream Believer]

Will they ship from Germany to the USA? Anyone know?

Yes they do. You can paypal or wire money. I found the HSH folks very nice to deal with and lucky for us, they speak/write english!

[luvmydutch]

Daydreambeliever...the only thing I'm sort of questioning about the training bridle is this...how does it translate to bitted work? What is its' purpose? Yes, it teaches the horse to carry itself in the correct way, but how, in your opinion, would this be translated to bitted work? Do you eventually connect the sliding side reins to the bit? If so at what point? If not, how would the cavesson affect under saddle training in any way other than that it builds correct muscling? Does he have a book on his training method printed in English?

[Daydream Believer]

Daydreambeliever...the only thing I'm sort of questioning about the training bridle is this...how does it translate to bitted work? What is its' purpose? Yes, it teaches the horse to carry itself in the correct way, but how, in your opinion, would this be translated to bitted work? Do you eventually connect the sliding side reins to the bit? If so at what point? If not, how would the cavesson affect under saddle training in any way other than that it builds correct muscling? Does he have a book on his training method printed in English?

Right now there is no book in English but there is a DVD with translation...or at least it was so back in the Spring when I bought my equipment. I think the idea is that you don't attach the sidereins to the bit at any point...but rather use the cavesson and side reins on that and work in hand with you using the bit...a forgiving following contact versus the unforgiving and restrictive contact of the sidereins. Truly...it is that restriction from sidereins that I've always hated in starting youngsters so I have to admit that I'm quite intrigued with the concept.

It does teach the correct way to the use back and enables the horse to build musculature correctly and slowly with no force or backwards riding like so many horses are subjected to these days. You have to keep in mind that if you follow Fritz Stahlecker's system to the letter, you will work in hand up to a year before you ride...but he's doing an amazing amount in hand...pirouettes, side pass, piaffe, etc...and he starts at 2 in hand and rides at 3...after a year of gentle work to build the horses up.

His system is controversial in Germany and last I heard his system was being tested officially for formal approval. He's trained some big time horses and the fact that they are indeed looking at adding it to the formal German system has to say that he's gotten a lot of attention from some high up people.

In his DVD's he shows a nice young stallion and his progress and first rider. The stallion is amazingly balanced, soft and light by the time he gets his first rider and so much farther ahead than any young horse I've ever seen at that age, that you have to ask yourself if there is not some value to being that patient and taking that much time before you ever swing a leg over.

I probably will not work that long in hand...but I will take my time and not push my youngsters and see how it develops. :)

[Moocow]

Ack! So many harsh words! ;) I was not a fan of the Pessoa either until I started using it. BUT having never used one, being rather inexperienced with lunging in general, AND being left alone with four horses that needed to be worked on the lunge for two weeks? Let's just say I was a little bit intimidated as well as scared as to what good or damage it (or I) could possibly do.
I had a wonderful array of horses to work with. One that was hot and nervous, another that was just plain hot (chestnut mare alert!), one that pulled like a freight train, and another that did the whole 'false frame' like a pro.
Which horses did the Pessoa do wonders for? The two hot heads! The nervous one learned to relax (he had a bit of a sketchy past) and found out that 'working' didn't have to come with being scared and running from all the aids a rider would attempt to use. He could work himself properly without any pressure and figured out rather quickly that it was okay to go slow and steady and that relaxation would be rewarded!
The freight train would literally pull the Pessoa into pieces as he was lunging. HAHAHA I figured from the start that it wouldn't work. It just got him worked up! The false framer? Regardless of how you set up the Pessoa he just kept his head exactly the same. It wasn't for him.

The key to the Pessoa I found (just out of my experience, no instruction from people or paper) is to keep it loose. Not dangerously loose, but loose enough that the horse absolutely has the option to go around like a giraffe if it wants to. It will absolutely NOT work on every horse. But keep it loose, and when they do start to engage, relax and work into a good frame utilizing their back, shoulders, hind ends etc., it is the real thing. It isn't forced on them through the 'gadget' and they are in no way cranked into position. I used it merely to keep a light, forgiving contact. I used the lunge line and my voice as well as the whip to both encourage and hold them when necessary. It really all just depends!!
Also, I've seen a chambon work wonders on certain horses as well, but again, it is not something that I would use on a lot of horses. I think that if it is used properly and in the correct situation, it can do a good job of teaching a horse that it if it wants to try to resist/fight/pull/etc it ends up fighting itself and not the rider.

As for Europeans lunging a lot and not using 'gadgets', I think I would have to disagree, at least in what I experienced/saw. I found lunging quite unpopular unless it was to get a horse out of its stall to stretch its legs briefly or keep it in work while for whatever reason it could not be ridden. I didn't find it was often used for training unless it was to break the horse or to break a habit that was easier fixed on the ground than in the saddle.
But gadgets galore! Everything from binder twine to things you don't even want to know about. It all depends on where you go!

[luvmydutch]

Okay Daydreambeliever, I see what you are saying. I think I can see the utility of this type of system for young horses because firstly...it doesn't involve lungeing, which as we all know can be detrimental to young joints. I am not sure I would feel comfortable with teaching piaffe or passage to a 3 year old horse...but I can see the utility of schooling things such as shoulder-in, haunches-in, leg yielding, half pass...then when the horse is asked to do these things with a rider and in the correct frame, he will say to himself "ah-ha...I know this movement I have done it before!"...although he was asked using different aids. I can see how this would put a young horse leaps and bounds ahead of other horses his (or her) age

[Daydream Believer]

You got it Dutch...and I am training on that premise. I do almost nothing from the saddle (such as lateral work) that I have not done from the ground first so the horses understand what I'm asking. I start with general control of the haunches and forequarters with a handy stick or dressage whip and then refine it to light pressure from my hand. My current coach (who trained in Spain, Portugal and later Germany) started me on this training concept and I've done a lot of research on my own and am working out what works best for my own abilities and goals.

A really really good in hand book I also have is "Horse Training In-Hand, A Modern Guide to Working from the Ground" by Ellen Schuthof-Lesmeister and Kip Mistral. It is a somewhat different perspective of in hand work than Fritz' yet eerily similar in the concepts of not using force and taking the time to build the young horse up to the work slowly. I can really recommend this book also.

Good luck with your horse!

[Samotis]

What is the best book or video out their to teach long lining? (have no idea how to spell that)

My colt is extremly smart and I want to make sure I do this right! I have seen it done and have the basic concept, but would like to have more knowledge about it.

If he gets frustrated with me then I get frustrated with him and it is a vicious circle!

He knows how to lunge and the side reins won't be an issue, but I would like to drive him in the arena to teach him how to move away from pressure, haunches in, etc....

Thank you Alexandra, thats great that you have those courses available to you! Good Luck on your silver!

[Kareen]

Thank you for posting the Training Aid. I had seen that but was wondering what the 'system' was that has been referred to earlier in the topic. Because a training aid to me is only one thing but a system would involve a bit more (e.g. method, philosophy, timeline etc.etc.) the way I see it.
There are so many training aids thrown on the market these days (beginning by a gazillion of different bits, ropes, rubbers, lines it often has me wonder what ever happened to plain old simple theory and practise.
In the years I have spent thus far I have only ever encountered two horses that turned out unrideable and neither one would have been fixed by any 'tool' but simply had a thorough dislike of being ridden. One was a 5yo Trakehner stallion who had arrived with no halter on as he had never been touched so far. He seriously injured myself and a few others and ended up being a lawn ornament for his breeder. The other one was a mare that was sold as an ET-recipient mare after she had bucked of a row of skilled professionals (luckily nobody was injured but it went pretty gross).

Other than that every single horse I have ever had to ride managed their way into the sport and/or a successful performance record with just a lungeline, sidereins, regular KK bit and saddle as the tools. So I'm wondering if there shouldn't be more emphasis on training more people who train horses instead of developping yet another concept, training aid or tool...

I have often wondered why in such a sophisticated and economically powerful industry as the N.A. horseworld there seems to be no universal training system for trainers. This would seem a true gap in the market. I know about the one or the other private organisation commercially offering this or that training/degree but nothing like a reliable concept that is accessible and affordable to any enthusiastic person who wants to learn about it.

[Daydream Believer]

I have often wondered why in such a sophisticated and economically powerful industry as the N.A. horseworld there seems to be no universal training system for trainers. This would seem a true gap in the market. I know about the one or the other private organisation commercially offering this or that training/degree but nothing like a reliable concept that is accessible and affordable to any enthusiastic person who wants to learn about it.

I think the reason why we have no one system is that we are so diverse here. We have Western which ranges from "pleasure" to cow horse events to reining...and then English, which includes hunters...something I don't think you all have in Europe.

We have the "saddleseat" and gaited stuff also...a world unto itself and quite different as well as a large pleasure horse trail horse market. We have breed shows like Arabians which are unique to their own thing where "hunters" have 4 inch toes and "packages" on their feet and are shown in a tight frame that is nothing like the USEF open hunter sort of classes. :no:

Now if you are just talking "sport horses" than that is a much smaller group and still, I think due to our huge country and being very spread out, it is impossible to enforce or promote "one system." My coach trains with a mixture of the French and German style dressage and she has told me that it is very different in Germany than the US. If you are a trainer there you are expected to follow the official "system" and deviations from that are not acceptable. That is why Fritz Stahlecker's methods are being "tested"...to see if they are found to be acceptable and considered mainstream. Here in the US, you'd never get any two trainers to agree on much. :yes:

Oh...and we have the "natural" horsemanship movement here also...not just Parelli, but several others who make their fortunes spreading the "word" to their followers. Don't get me wrong...I don't think it's all "bad" and I use some of those techniques in my groundwork training initially in desensitizing youngsters but I quickly move on to more classical training as soon as I can. I don't think there's anything "new" under the sun but the great masters sure didn't have the marketing skills of today's guru's. :winkgrin:

[Kareen]

Makes a lot of sense.

[luvmydutch]

If the Germans have one "mandated" correct way of doing things that all germans use in training a horse in dressage...is it published anywhere? If so, can i buy a copy translated to English? :D

[Samotis]

Daydream Believer said it right...

I learned western before I started english and jumping. My hunter jumper trainer when I was a kid was also a paint/western rider.

So there are many different trainers out there and they all have their "ideas" what is right.

That is why I started this thread! I have worked for many trainers in AZ and they all trained differently. Rather then take their approaches, I want to see what is out there!;)

Alexandra explained well what goes into these techniques and classes she takes. I am assuming this is what the Germans want every trainer to learn.

luvmydutch, she may be able to get something in english for you. ;)

[Samotis]

and don't get me started on the natural horsemanship philosophies!

Basically her philosiphy is every time he acts up, then I am doing something wrong and he doesn't understand me. I tried to explain to her that I don't want my horse following me around like a puppy and I don't want to hop on him bareback with a halter!

I gave up at that point! ;)

[luvmydutch]

Alexandra? Is this true? Would you know where I would be able to find a book on the German Training Pyramid?:eek:

[Daydream Believer]

Basically her philosiphy is every time he acts up, then I am doing something wrong and he doesn't understand me.

What a crock! :lol: That is why I am not a "follower."

[Home Again Farm]

The book linked to here is one that has been on the required reading list for those seeking USDF certification. The same publishers have books on advanced dressage, driving, longeing and stable management.

http://www.amazon.com/Principles-National-Equestrian-Federations-Complete/dp/1872119719/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257981731&sr=1-1

[alexandra]

Alexandra? Is this true? Would you know where I would be able to find a book on the German Training Pyramid?:eek:


I just wanted to check out the FN page for their Richtlinien as I know they are available translated but than I found one on the scale of training. Not sure if that is what you mean by pyramid, because the six principle (the scale) I listed above are no pyramid but sort of work all together (bit hard to understand though).
No idea if this book is of any good as I was searching for other ones (see bleow), but this is specifically on the scale of trianing:

http://www.fnverlag.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p202_FN-Training-Series-Part-3-Dressage---The-Scale-of-Training.html

And these are the ones I was refering to earlier in german Richtlinine ind english they translated it to principles (to be found under guidelines on that HP aswell):
http://www.fnverlag.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p66_Book-1--The-Principles-of-Riding.html

http://www.fnverlag.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p67_Book-2--Advanced-Techniques-of-Dressage.html

http://www.fnverlag.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p72_Book-6--Lungeing.html

[Samotis]

i just have this picture in my head of my colt tangled through the long lines and me tripping over all of it and falling on my face.

so before I even attempt, I am going to practice!!! :lol:

[Sakura Hill Farm]

I used to longline my little brother all over the garden when we were small!

[Samotis]

I have certainly seen it done and understand the concept, but it involves being coordinated, and that is something I will have to work out. Add a 2 year old into the equation and it could get interesting!:eek:

[YankeeLawyer]

i just have this picture in my head of my colt tangled through the long lines and me tripping over all of it and falling on my face.

That would be me - with my colt rolling his eyes at how difficult it is to train his human! :).

[Samotis]

exactly! I get that look all the time!

The other day I gave him a bath and it was a little cold out. I took him to graze in the grass and he looks at me like, are you crazy? I am am wet and in about 2 seconds I will be blowing up!

As soon as I get his message he is leaping everywhere and I somehow manage to get him into the arena where he bucks a couple times and rolls. Yes, rolls right after his bath, wet....

He definantly is training me sometimes!:lol:

Some fights are better left alone with him. He is a little like his mother in that way. Still love him though!

[ise@ssl]

Most young horses spend most of their time outside in Germany - weather conditions aren't what we face her in the NE in the wintertime. When they start them on the ground they do use sidereins but also "free lunge" the horses with tack on so they learn to move forward OFF the hind legs. Backing them is usually the same work they do on the lunge but with the rider but always forward forward.

Those prepped for auction are usually free jumped and worked on the flat and YES they do put on the big "auction trots" for the sales but they don't always ride them that way all the time. I have to say the Bereiters who work they horses are well trained riders with good seats and hands - so they are pretty schooled in the Pyramid Training method and only take contact when the horses are ready for it. Exceptions to this ?? yes but for the most part they young horses are taught the basics first.

Here in the US they tend to start the horses on the forehand which might work for future hunter work but not for dressage and jumping.

[Oakstable]

I'm in California and the "colt starters" here are cowboys or cowgirls.

Most of them use a combination of natural horsemanship concepts.

The cowboy I am using does a really good job of teaching respect first. He has tons of patience and will spend the time it takes to win over the horse.

I had one gelding who was such a pig about his feet that we couldn't even get him trimmed using Ace. So four days with the cowboy and the farrier came out and trimmed him all the way around.

I have one broodmare who was extremely opposed to getting in the trailer. Two sessions with her with the cowboy and she loaded quietly in the trailer and stood there.

I have a 3-day rider training my one horse. The plan is that the cowboy will do the basics and she will take over the ride when the horse is quietly W, T and C. And she will introduce contact because he doesn't.