Breeding Gypsy Vanners for dressage. [Archive]

Daventry

Nov. 7, 2009, 06:55 PM

Well then you and your friend are equal in your knowledge.
Oy! What the hell did you have for breakfast?? :no::( Certainly not a nice way to start the new board.

Tiki is right. They are designed as a cart horse. While they are certainly cute and fancy to look at, I personally don't think they have a place in today's show ring as a dressage, jumper, eventer, etc. They are what I would call a fad breed, and while you can most certainly get them for less than $20,000 if you are looking in the right place, their price will eventually come down to a reasonable level once the novelty wears off. I had looked at purchasing one about 6 or 7 years ago, but at the end of the day, I had to ask myself, "What the heck would I do with it once I had it?" :D

Rhyadawn

Nov. 7, 2009, 07:14 PM

at the end of the day, I had to ask myself, "What the heck would I do with it once I had it?" :D

LOL! I've heard they are very intellegent and can be taught to perform many tricks.

Seriously though I'm going to echo the words of the majority. They were bred to be cart horses, and while they probably could be trained for dressage I'm not sure there is a market for that.

Tamara in TN

Nov. 7, 2009, 07:18 PM

[QUOTE=Daventry;4486314]
Tiki is right. They are designed as a cart horse.

don't forget the part about being around 13hh;)

Schiffon

Nov. 7, 2009, 07:23 PM

The ones I've seen in person are not athletic in the terms we think of for dressage. Lacking in suppleness and suspension in their gaits. I can't see them doing anything above training level with a satisfactory score.

From what I've been told, there is no breed standard, so if someone wanted to cross breed to keep the "cuteness" but improve the gaits, that could be possible. But why start from square one when other breeds have 50-100 years of breeding improvement to use as the basis for a program?

Daventry

Nov. 7, 2009, 07:29 PM

But why start from square one when other breeds have 50-100 years of breeding improvement to use as the basis for a program?
I couldn't agree more. And on that note....why not try the Welsh Cobs instead? ;) Also super cute, prices are much better than the Gypsy's, much more athletic and mainstream, variance in heights form 12 HH and even in the 15-16 HH range, hardy and sound.

There are many successful Welsh Cobs currently in the dressage world. North Forks Brenin Cardi is among them, who just finished a great showing at Devon. To satisfy my Gypsy craving, I've got a super cute half Welsh Cob mare who is a bay & white pinto that looks very Gypsy Vannerish without the extensive feathers who is going to make an outstanding dressage prospect! :yes:

siegi b.

Nov. 7, 2009, 07:41 PM

They are spotted, heavy, and hairy ponies..... why would anybody want them as a dressage mount?

Nov. 7, 2009, 07:51 PM

So much mis-information out there, usually stemming from the hatred that someone else is capitalizing on a pretty, colored, feathered breed ;)

Yes, of COURSE GVs can do Dressage! But I wouldn't use them for upper levels. Not a full GV, not a F1 cross. By an F2 cross, with F1 back to a lighter sporthorse type, you might have something capable of higher levels, but don't count on it. Might.

Can a given individual get higher in the levels than the "average" GV? Certainly, just like a given individual QH can. The point is, the breed as a whole is NOT bred for Dressage, but that doesn't mean the right one can't do well - very well at that. I wouldn't use them to breed FOR it though, but you could certainly find one that has a better body type than a heavier, denser type that many are.

They are also NOT relegated to 13h. There are some that are much closer to 16h.

Tamara in TN

Nov. 7, 2009, 08:06 PM

They are also NOT relegated to 13h. There are some that are much closer to 16h.

aren't those classified as the Drum Horses and not Vanners proper?

Chall

Nov. 7, 2009, 08:14 PM

Yes, there is a poster who bred GVs and showed them and did dressage with some jumping. They actually trained and rode them.
But they don't breed them anymore (I don't think) and I don't know if the dressage was at breed shows. The ones I saw were sturdy and horse-like despite their 13 hand size. Not pony "cute", somewhat serious fellows, so maybe the breed would take to dressage. I think the hairy legs would interfere with judging their movement though and I think it's hard to make it in the show ring if your breed is not typically known for a particular discipline, IMO.
For re-sale I wouldn't breed them (market is too small I think) - but if you have one enjoy him.

Tamara in TN

Nov. 7, 2009, 08:19 PM

http://www.gogypsy.com/index.php

one of our hay customers...you can make the call yourselves about their conformations:)

citydog

Nov. 7, 2009, 08:27 PM

one of our hay customers...

Good Lord! Looks like they must buy a *lot* of your hay! :eek::lol:

Tamara in TN

Nov. 7, 2009, 08:33 PM

Good Lord! Looks like they must buy a *lot* of your hay! :eek::lol:

they keep about 80 head...with about a dozen new fillies this last week from Wales..I won't complain about them :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

Nov. 7, 2009, 08:34 PM

LOL! Well, at least we know that is one farm that will not be posted about starving their horses! :lol:

not after last week's 80 ton delivery they won't :lol::lol:

JumpingBug

Nov. 7, 2009, 08:36 PM

They have become a real novelty item here so people here and in Ireland take advantage of americans who will pay 10k-25k for these hairy creatures. We have 2 in the barn and both were bought for less than $4k each and hunted in Ireland. The only lady bought hers as she fell from it (her bad) and it stopped and waited for her to get up (getting the picture, these are not real self starters)more like it just started to graze on grass. She has been offered a lot of money for both which is shocking since they both move like little cart horses. while they all (the three I have worked with) could get around the hunt field and ferry children over Bn and N they are not great on the flat... YOU would have to watch one go to see what I mean. and I am not talking about watching one of those videos from a american breeders hobby site of one being chased across a beach (mane and tail flowing) with theme music and in it running slow motion. The hunt field can be 3'3 with some decent drops and they all handle them just fine but again they are not stylist, I can not see breeding them as "dressage" mounts. OH and if you want one they can be found cheap, the getting them hear costs more than they do unless you find a naughty Irish agent or a naughty american agent they are cheap!

They come in three sizes:

Tinker under 15 hands
Vanner 15-16 hands
Drum 16 plus hence they are the horses that carry drums in fancy parades.

buschkn

Nov. 7, 2009, 08:43 PM

I truly am not trying to be a beatch, but I cannot for the life of me imagine why anyone would want one of these, or would spend big money to buy or import them. I see cuter, more athletic horses on any given week at a local auction for under $500.

Why would someone pay $20K+ for a pasture pet with that much hair to try and take care of? It really blows my mind, and I certainly don't think I have ever seen one that appeared to have the conformation or inclination for dressage.

I think all horses are cute or beautiful, but its a stretch for me to see the appeal of these even as a pet. JMHO. Your friends time, energy, and money would be better served in another direction if she is trying to breed for dressage. No sense re-inventing the wheel, indeed. I do like the Cob suggestion- much more amenable for dressage I would think.

selah

Nov. 7, 2009, 09:11 PM

Yes, of COURSE GVs can do Dressage! But I wouldn't use them for upper levels. Not a full GV, not a F1 cross. By an F2 cross, with F1 back to a lighter sporthorse type, you might have something capable of higher levels, but don't count on it. Might.

The problem with this is, as I understand it, that the feathering is a recessive trait. Crossing them to "lighter sporthorse type[s]" in order to improve athleticism for dressage, will most likely result in a non-feathered offspring...defeating the purpose of starting out with a Vanner to begin with.

allpurpose

Nov. 7, 2009, 09:20 PM

Good Lord! Looks like they must buy a *lot* of your hay! :eek::lol:

:lol::lol::lol:

NJRider

Nov. 7, 2009, 09:25 PM

I don't hate the horse breed, I hate the [people] who capitalize on other [people] who are willing to spend lots of $$ of hairy, spotted ponies/horses. It takes a very special type of person to take advantage of people with limited [knowledge] and unlimited checkbooks.

Why isn't the uneducated buyer given the responsibility to get educated before making a decision to spend so much $$ on what may or may not be a good investment? I don't think they are unintelligent, just NOT horsemen. I know some Arab and Friesian folks with more $$ than brains and have an arrogance that keeps them from listening to well intentioned advice. So they spend tens of thousand of dollars on worthless horses so they can brag about the bloodlines or whatever... But don't despair, most of these silly people I personally know have seen the light called Horse-Man-Ship! Yippeeee.... it is called the circle of life or the circle of stupidity I guess.

tempichange

Nov. 7, 2009, 09:25 PM

There is one farm in Kentucky that specifically promotes GV's in dressage. Full Circle Farm.

I still cannot get past or justify having that much hair. Especially hair to mud ratio when it's nasty out.

They're nice guys, but, as a whole, I don't see them going beyond third.

I'm with the cob people, but you cannot count my vote, I own and therefore am terribly bias.

Equibrit

Nov. 7, 2009, 09:26 PM

That's a lot like breeding wrestlers for ballet dancing.
If your friend likes unregistered, indiscriminately bred, untalented, common crosses, then she must go for it. The only place those horses belong is between shafts.

TrotTrotPumpkn

Nov. 7, 2009, 09:44 PM

I know someone who breeds them. Even she rides a Danish warmblood for her dressage horse.

I do know they are ultra forgiving--like no engine at all (even her stud). I think if I wanted feathers for dressage I'd try a Fresian or Fresian cross. I've known several and they are extremely ammie friendly too, although they are not all built the same and I'd recommend someone with a good eye to help find one with natural gaits and build that will be suitable for dressage (assuming she wants the feathers).

Or if you want to ride spots and don't want a warmblood or a paint, one of the most FUN horses I ever rode was an Icelandic Horse! But I digress from the dressage question....

Foxtrot's

Nov. 7, 2009, 09:52 PM

Think of Lamas, ostriches, emus and potbellied pigs - there was a huge market for them once when they fetched big prices, now not so much. Fortunes were made and lost.

cottagefarm

Nov. 7, 2009, 09:56 PM

Flame suit on :winkgrin:

Being from the U.K originally we would see gypsy horses all the time on the side of the rd tethered. The other thing they would use them for is bringing a cart around the neighborhood collecting scrap. We called them tinker horses
To the Gypsies they are like a status symbol. The flashier the colour and the faster they can trot down the rd the better!
Go to a local horse market and you can pick one up for a couple hundred pounds.
Imagine my disbelief when they started being imported to the U.S and someone Patented the term "vanner" and gave them papers and started getting $$$$"s for them!
They do not (or did not) ever have papers or registry just it is such a small community that they gypsies) all know the stallion, mares and offspring by name/ownership.
They have been made a commercial venture by a few people here in the U.S that could see dollar signs.

My neighbor has a few and has pd 20k-30k plus for them . To me it is crazy but to each there own!

they are usually very sweet and easy to train but IM (humble)O very limited in talent for higher level competition so why bother investing the big bucks when there are other more compatible breeds/types out there.

Foxtrot's

Nov. 7, 2009, 10:01 PM

the farm is sure lovely though and good customers of Tamara. Tennessee looks lovely.

Kyzteke

Nov. 7, 2009, 10:34 PM

, and while you can most certainly get them for less than $20,000 if you are looking in the right place,

Indeed! The Gypsy Vanner is one of the most successful scams in the history of the horse world.

The "founder" of the registry trademarked the name and developed this mystique about these "magikal" gypsy horses. Only afew "chosen" people knew where to find this "rare" and wonderous horses...only a few who knew the secret gypsy handshake could import one...hence the ridiculously over inflated prices!

In all actuality all these horses are are pinto cobs, and according to many people who actually live in the British Isles, there is nothing rare or magikal about them. The landscape is littered with them...only they are simply called piebald cobs.

If I sound jealous, I am...I wish I'd thought of this scam first!

As for their ability in dressage, the other posters are correct...but it sounds like the OP's friend likes the hairy, 'I wish I was a princess' breeds. To each there own, of course, but if I was going to spend $20K on a horse I'd get a real dressage horse....

Daydream Believer

Nov. 7, 2009, 10:35 PM

I would not want a GV either...not my style....but I am not offended that someone might want to breed a GV for a dressage horse..maybe over time with selective breeding they can improve the gaits. Not everyone wants the same thing and some folks like that hairy legged cobby look. They do have ammie friendly brains...I'll give them that much. So I say...whatever...each to their own....live and let live.

To the OP, I would just tell your friend to not expect much market from the serious dressage crowd but from someone who wants that look in a nice quiet family type horse with hairy legs and a long mane to do lower level dressage on, why not? I do know they are a grooming nightmare from a friend of mine who spent the summer working on a GV farm as a trainer...they get scratches bad.

I personally think it's funny that they command those prices for those hairy little horses. I wish I could figure out how they did it and duplicate it for our rare breed that is still teetering on the verge of extinction.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 7, 2009, 10:45 PM

Daydream Believer

Nov. 7, 2009, 10:58 PM

Apparently you need some magik and a secret handshake!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

exvet

Nov. 7, 2009, 11:15 PM

I have yet to see one at the dressage shows but that does not mean that there aren't some out there. Doesn't Steve Gilson's (co-owner of Sonora vet hosp) wife breed them (though not for dressage)? She's not too far from you I believe.

If your friend is at all interestd in welsh cobs she should contact Wendy Borst, a breeder in Phoenix (www.moonlightwelshcobs.com). She's located off of Shea Blvd. She hasn't been breeding specifically for the dressage venue but has produced some stuff that have competed at FEI. I've ridden most of her breeding stock and even shown one of them, good representatives of the breed. Most of what she has produced has made their way in the foxhunting circles and driving circles. Just a thought.

SuperSTB

Nov. 7, 2009, 11:38 PM

Damn why can't I think of these things!
I want a golden ticket...

<superstb starts to sing>
I never thought my life could be anything but catastrophe
But suddenly I begin to see a bit of good luck for me
Cause I've got a golden ticket
I've got a golden twinkle in my eye
I never had a chance to shine never a happy song to sing,
But suddenly half the world is mine what an amazing thing
Cause I've got a golden ticket.
It's ours Charlie!
I've got a golden sun up in the sky.

I never thought I'd see the day when I would face the world and say,
"Good morning. Look at the sun."
I never thought that I would be slap in the lap of luxury
Cause I have said it couldn't be done
But it can be done.

I never dreamed that I would climb over the moon in ecstasy,
But nevertheless it's there that I'm shortly about to be
Cause I've got a golden ticket
I've got a golden chance to make my way
And with the golden ticket it's a golden day.

Good morning! Look at the sun!
Cause I have said, "It couldn't be done"
But it can be done.

I never dreamed that I would climb over the moon in ecstasy,
But nevertheless it's there that I'm shortly about to be
Cause I've got a golden ticket.
Cause I've got a golden ticket.
I've got a golden chance to make my way
And with a golden ticket it's a golden day.

pintopiaffe

Nov. 8, 2009, 09:21 AM

I personally think it's funny that they command those prices for those hairy little horses. I wish I could figure out how they did it and duplicate it for our rare breed that is still teetering on the verge of extinction.

When DB & I were at Equine Affaire with our little Colonial Spanish horses, there were a couple of very cute Gypsies that we looked twice at. There were two full aisleways (both sides) of them, and their marketing machine was amazing.

I kept saying, "they know what they're doing!" I don't understand why we can't foster the same kind of mystique and desire for the exotic and rare Colonial Spanish horses.

I'm not going to slam the Tinker pony in any way. Except to point out that "tinker" can be a derogatory term in certain circles. I will point out that they have substance without height--i.e. big enough for most adults, without being intimidatingly tall. They are, as a rule, very kind and trainable. Sure they might not be the most athletic equine in the world--though I've *personally seen with my OWN eyes* a couple that are very, very nice movers--but they do find a niche in the market. That of a medium sized, kind, amateur friendly horse who is still 'special.'

I made a vow on OT day to stop peeing in the pool... so... I'll end this by saying that I hope my pinto cobs with less hair and more dressage abillity can fill that niche too. :p

RiverOaksFarm

Nov. 8, 2009, 09:36 AM

horsecrazy, if your friend wants hair, spots, and dressage ability, has she looked at Hidden Promise's breeding program? They are breeding pinto Friesian Sporthorses, and they have the stallion Nico, who is an approved Friesian Sporthorse, combining Friesian and Dutch Warmblood bloodlines. This wouldn't have the mythical appeal of the Gypsy, but I think it would be more successful if she's wanting to breed a dressage horse. If she decided to pursue something like this, Hidden Promise's breeding program would be a great role model for her as she gets started, because you can't just cross "anything with pinto spots" to "any Friesian" and get a Nico -- plenty have already tried and failed -- but HP has done a great job of breeding quality Friesian Sporthorses with the bonus of color.

I'd also be happy to talk to your friend if she was interested in learning more about Friesian Sporthorses, since I know alot about about them and I also breed them myself (and although I don't specialize in breeding for color, I still know a fair amount about it, and I currently own a Nico colt myself in partnership as a stallion prospect.) My email is RiverOaksFarmFL@aol.com

Here is a link to Nico: http://nicopintostallion.com/nico.htm
And here are some photos of my Nico yearling colt (out of a Friesian Sporthorse mare), some photos are from inspection, and some are informal shots from around the farm, he doesn't have an official webpage yet: http://www.riveroaksfarm.net/AmericusAlbum.html

Back to the Gypsys, I was curious and looked up their USDF All-Breeds results. It looks like there are three registries for them, and between the three they awarded All-Breeds Awards at Training and First Level this year, with Training Level median scores of 69%, 68%, and 66%, and First Level median scores of 61.7% and 61.0%.

I also know that some of the Gypsy breeders are experimenting with adding Friesian blood, to make the Gypsies sportier and more suitable for dressage. But that isn't my area of expertise...

Nov. 8, 2009, 09:57 AM

I have yet to see one at the dressage shows but that does not mean that there aren't some out there.

Given their relative population amongst all the other horses, it's really not surprising. From what I've seen in searching around, for now they tend to stick to GV-specific shows, where there are Dressage, Driving, and Jumping divisions.

Can't blame them for now - imagine the snark and snide comments they'd have to endure under the eyes of "real horse" owners ;)

exvet

Nov. 8, 2009, 10:57 AM

Can't blame them for now - imagine the snark and snide comments they'd have to endure under the eyes of "real horse" owners

Imagine? I don't have to imagine. I get plenty of snarky comments as well as a small following (both extremes) just showing what I do among the masses at the open venues. Not everyone thinks welsh cobs belong and my other "failing" is Arabs. Considering I spent a long time in your neck of the woods on TBs hanging out at Sedgefield for years and later moved on to holsteiners I am kind of resigned to slumming for the latter years ;) Kind of keeps those expectations in check and no more keeping up with the Jones' or Fields or Cobs or Thomas' as the case was way back when.

Kyzteke

Nov. 8, 2009, 11:13 AM

Given their relative population amongst all the other horses, it's really not surprising. From what I've seen in searching around, for now they tend to stick to GV-specific shows, where there are Dressage, Driving, and Jumping divisions.

Can't blame them for now - imagine the snark and snide comments they'd have to endure under the eyes of "real horse" owners ;)

I don't have a problem with the horses themselves -- not best suited for dressage, but THAT is not the issue. They seem like cute little guys. My problem is with the scam that markets them and prices them for these ridiculous amounts when all they are is is little spotted tinker horses.

$30K for horses the importer probably bought for $1200. It's those people who give horse trading a bad name....

Although I only have a certain amount of sympathy for those who have more $$ than common sense....

Daydream Believer

Nov. 8, 2009, 11:31 AM

When DB & I were at Equine Affaire with our little Colonial Spanish horses, there were a couple of very cute Gypsies that we looked twice at. There were two full aisleways (both sides) of them, and their marketing machine was amazing.

I kept saying, "they know what they're doing!" I don't understand why we can't foster the same kind of mystique and desire for the exotic and rare Colonial Spanish horses.

I think the fact that our breed is still struggling after 50 years of having the first registry formed has a lot to do with the completely lack of marketing and the mindset of those who raised them to begin with. They were raised cheap, sold cheap, dumped at sales, and often barely halterbroken (or still quite wild) before being shipped to new owners...and could never compete with breeds like the QH that offered so much more to the members as well as horses that they could buy and use without a major gentling period. Some also breed with no care to the breed standard and essentially selected to breed off type to off type horses taking away credibility from the breed itself. :no: All that added up to bring us to where we are now...still struggling.

Last count by Equus Survival Trust shows Col. Spanish horses at Critical or Nearly Extinct depending on the strain. Our western strain horses are down to under 300 breeding mares and are critical.

When I first got involved 5 years ago, I almost didn't buy my first horses as I could see how backwards much of the thinking was. I'm very concerned in this economy that the future is not as bright as some might think if no action is taken.

Finally though, after politics that make the Oldenburg registry stuff look mild :yes: since I've been involved in the last 5 years, we have a registry recently formed that is actively promoting the horses, is run by a committee of members instead of a dictatorship, as well as enforcing a breed standard via an inspection system...hopefully to improve on the credibility issues created by earlier actions. It is this registry that is finally making inroads in Europe (where inspections play a huge role in all horse breeding) and we are seeing a grass roots level movement from many disenchanted breeders/members in the US to take the breed to the next level and to show people that our little American horses have value and can be a valid working mount for a number of disciplines.

Money is still short and many folks are working as volunteers only (to include myself) but the motivation is there and many of us realize just how shaky the ground is that we are standing on.

I'm trying to get some youngsters going this winter to show next year in dressage to include Sky's sister Promise who will be 4 years old. She doing her groundwork now and I'll back her later this winter. :)

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 8, 2009, 11:39 AM

IMO, the Gypsy Vanners do a lot of trading on the fact that they have a class at Dressage at Devon. People begin to associate them with dressage from seeing them there, reading about their "success" there.

Reality is that DaD offers classes to any breed that pays them $500 to do so. It becomes a bit of the "entertainment" factor, just like terrier races at the International, and saddle seat classes at The Devon Horse Show.

It is nice to see a variety of horse breeds in the US, but that does not make them a top breed for dressage.

Can they do dressage? Sure, the same as ANY horse with 4 legs and a tail.

They also benefit from the exotic sounding name, and the "imported" label.

A large majority of buyers in this country can't evaluate a horse. They can't judge conformation, or gaits. They buy a horse because they "like it", or a "cool" factor. People like different things, so there will always be a market for all of the different types.

Prices will reflect supply and demand for their novelty, not talent.

Equilibrium

Nov. 8, 2009, 12:54 PM

For the love of God do not try and make Dressage horses out of Gypsy Vanners!!!

My only experience with them has been the untouched, and I do mean untouched, 4yo's that come in for breaking. And while none of the untouched is their fault, my lord have we been taken on some interesting adventures. And I will admit at the end of the day, they are lovely animals for just a general riding horse. Personally, I am not fond of the gait or jump, but they do try.

And I do really despise people taken advantage of others with the regards to money on these animals. A man just up the road from us, who I'm not allowed to visit by the way, breeds them by the boatload as he has an unhandled stallion covering all the unhandled mares. I had a thread on it a few months back. He has so many now because he refuses to take anything but fantasy prices for them. I guess he still thinks Americans will come back in droves to pay stupid money for his horses.

I actually don't think I have a problem with the breed as much as I have a problem with the people that breed them over here. If you are looking for a safe horse who will keep itself out of trouble, lives off of hay and very little hard feed, who will take care of beginners (once handled of course), and are very forgiving then they are lovely horses. But really for dressage, best stick with what works.

Terri

JMurray

Nov. 8, 2009, 09:11 PM

Reality is that DaD offers classes to any breed that pays them $500 to do so. It becomes a bit of the "entertainment" factor, just like terrier races at the International, and saddle seat classes at The Devon Horse Show.

Ahem, cough, uh...being one of those sponsors that put up $500 to have an IBC class, I am a bit put off by your comments here. Please do not put my breed in the same terrier race category as the Gypsy Vanner's. We have our dignity after all, we trim our feathers and braid our manes so we look like proper sport horses and any gray Nokota's white tail sparkles white, not yellow.

If people are entertained by the Nokota IBC , so be it, but we take being at DaD very seriously and to us it is not a joke or a terrier race, thank you very much. We never claim Nokota's are a top dressage bred, just an all around sporthorse good at many disciplines including dressage. I have actually never heard or read anywhere that the Vanner folks claim that any way. This is just something from the OP about someone else's desire for them to be so.

Koniucha

Nov. 8, 2009, 09:21 PM

Well then you and your friend are equal in your knowledge.

So are you some sort of expert on this breed? If you are, please share your knowledge.

Koniucha

Nov. 8, 2009, 09:32 PM

I just knew that when I opened this thread it would be a bunch of people saying 'why would someone have a horse like this' and blah blah blah. Why not? What is the big deal? Just because someone does not want the standard 'bay thoroughbred', does not [mean anything].

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 8, 2009, 09:40 PM

JMurray, I posted about the entertainment factor not as a negative to a breed, but in being able to see many breeds in one place. I usually go to watch the Gypsy Vanner class, or at least some of it, because I think all of the feathers look cool. I enjoy seeing the variety of horses - period. I don't have to think a horse is a dressage prospect to enjoy who they are.

grayarabpony

Nov. 8, 2009, 10:36 PM

SuperSTB

Nov. 8, 2009, 11:03 PM

It does if they pay $25K for a horse that's worth $1500, which is the point that everyone on here has made.

That's kind of my snark too...

Then again maybe I should take my standies and give them a majikal name so people would consider them?!?

Koniucha

Nov. 8, 2009, 11:53 PM

It does if they pay $25K for a horse that's worth $1500, which is the point that everyone on here has made.

Why do you care what someone pays for anything?

Koniucha

Nov. 8, 2009, 11:57 PM

It does if they pay $25K for a horse that's worth $1500, which is the point that everyone on here has made.

What if someone said [the same thing about] anyone that has a gray arab pony [edit]?

grayarabpony

Nov. 9, 2009, 12:01 AM

It would be a really stupid thing to say. :)

[edit]

Besides, my gray arab pony *does* have talent for dressage, and I paid a whopping 800 bucks for her as a yearling.

Moderator 1

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:03 AM

Please avoid the personal commentary and calling entire groups of people names due to their breed preferences. It's fine to discuss the relative "worth" of a breed or suitability for a given discipline from your perspective, but keep things productive and avoid throwing around terms like "idiot" to describe an entire group of horse owners.

Thanks!
Mod 1

Koniucha

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:13 AM

Thank you Mod 1!

equineartworks

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:15 AM

I think they are darling, but all that hair sort of freaks me out. I have a Collie and a Golden Retriever, a mini and a pony... that's enough hair for me thanks.

But I do know the children here would LOFF a magical feathery pony sized GV with impeccable manners if anyone has a nice one that might make some special riders happy? I could pay maybe...nada? We are happy learning basic riding skills so Dressage suitability is a moot point. We like to walk and trot :)

Nov. 9, 2009, 09:09 AM

It does if they pay $25K for a horse that's worth $1500, which is the point that everyone on here has made.

The worth of a horse is what someone is willing to pay for it, or thinks it's ok to pay. Just because it's not "worth" it to you does not in any way mean it's not worth it to someone else.

*I* TOTALLY think it's worth paying $25k for a brand new Mercedes Benz, but not worth it for $40k. That doesn't mean I'd want one, even if I had $25k, to spend on a car - I don't want that car. *I* think it's totally not worth it to pay whatever it costs to buy a Hummer, even if it were $1000, but others obviously think it's worth it to buy one for $40k or whatever their sticker price is.

Worth is relative, and nobody has the right to impose their sense of worth on someone else.

europa

Nov. 9, 2009, 09:17 AM

Well, I think the reason people on this forum get so hot under the collar is because we try to produce an athlete based alot of proven bloodlines and performance. We see value in the genetic history of our horses.....I know I do. There is a correlation between price and bloodlines typically. In the case of Vanners there are no documented bloodlines unless you consider FOUNDATION STOCK or the LOP EARED MARE something to document. They must all be related since they all come from the same FOUNDATION STOCK horse!

I have nothing against the horses but they are not worth the crazy prices that people seem to think they can charge.

grayarabpony

Nov. 9, 2009, 09:18 AM

JB:

Oh, so what? Will you quit following me around and picking at my posts? It gets old.

At least a Mercedes has quality workmanship, and is not the same as a Chevy Citation. Anyone can take a hairy spotted horse, call it a Gypsy Vanner, and sell it for a lot of money.

Just to make it clear Koniucha, you were the one who came here and used the [edit] word, [edit]. lol

I don't have anything against Gypsy Vanners, but I do think they're overpriced. There was the cutest 3-year-old at the symposium in Raleigh last year; he went around that arena completely unfazed, and there was quite a large crowd.

He was impressive in his unflappability, but a packer with similar movement could be bought at a fraction of his cost. The fraction usually depends on how successful of a show horse the "packer" is. If he has a good jump he will go for a lot of money.

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 9, 2009, 09:47 AM

He was impressive in his unflappability, but a packer with similar movement could be bought at a fraction of his cost.

Unless they are an imported Warmblood. I have seen many of those that you couldn't give me at any price, but others pay big bucks because of names in their pedigree, who is selling them, etc.

Guess what? If it is a Quatersandrodonnerubinmeyer, and can't move, it is not worth much, or shouldn't be. Maybe even less than a Gypsy Vanner at the tinker price. or maybe even less than a CANTER horse, as many of them are quite good movers.

Why all of this resentment because a group of people came up with a "product" that may have value to some people? You know what? There are entrepreneurs out there that come up with all kinds of strange things to market - best of luck to them. The last thing I saw was Petsmart selling <drumroll> grass. Yep, they sell tiny pots of the green stuff, so you can take it home and let your dog puke INSIDE the house. :lol:

Nov. 9, 2009, 09:49 AM

JB:

Oh, so what? Will you quit following me around and picking at my posts? It gets old.
LMAO! I was on this thread first. I'm not going to ignore something someone says for fear they'll think I'm stalking them.

At least a Mercedes has quality workmanship, and is not the same as a Chevy Citation. Anyone can take a hairy spotted horse, call it a Gypsy Vanner, and sell it for a lot of money.
More power to them! Why does it bother you so much? Why do some people pay $100 for jeans that have purposefully had holes put in them, had spots worn thin, and other "wear marks" put on them? Because it's worth it to them. It's not to me, but more power to those who figured out that people will pay good money for that product. It's called marketing.

FWIW, I ALSO think GVs are overpriced. But so what? I think a lot of horses being sold are overpriced. I mean seriously, $500k for a good Equitation horse? Really? Sooooo not worth it to me, but SO worth it for those who want it and can pay for it. More power to the person who can sell the horse for that price and to the person who wants it badly enough.

Nov. 9, 2009, 09:50 AM

Yep, they sell tiny pots of the green stuff, so you can take it home and let your dog puke INSIDE the house. :lol:
Oh but come on, it saves you the time of taking the dog out, where he'll eat the grass anyway :lol:

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 9, 2009, 10:00 AM

where he'll eat the grass anyway :lol:

Yes, but he will be eating FREE grass. :D

RedMare01

Nov. 9, 2009, 10:03 AM

I know someone who sent a GV to a fairly well known trainer in Wellington. Lets just say the horse was only there two or three months, and was never shown. And this was a trainer that is very "open" to somewhat alternative breeds, like Friesians.
GV's were not bred to be dressage horses. Not saying that it can't be done, but it's going to take generations of selective breeding to even start heading in that direction.
Caitlin

Nov. 9, 2009, 10:15 AM

RedMare, what was the GV in training for? Unless it's a very breed-specific show, I can't imagine anyone wanting to take the chance on the ridicule of a GV in "normal" shows.

I agree with you - they aren't bred for Dressage, any individual can do at least lower levels, but don't expect any of them to be a top performer as they stand now. I'm sure someone with the right knowledge could set about producing a line that was more suitable for higher levels, but it will take years and years and years.

Tamara in TN

Nov. 9, 2009, 11:06 AM

[QUOTE=JB;4488758]RedMare, what was the GV in training for? Unless it's a very breed-specific show, I can't imagine anyone wanting to take the chance on the ridicule of a GV in "normal" shows.

it could not be much worse than showing up on anything other than the "geldedsonofmrtrendy" could it ??

like a morgan or STB or walking horse or Paso or QH or App or Paint or pinto or cob or pony insert breed?

"sport horse" is a narrow world to begin with....no ?

anyway they are good customers of ours (we have more than one farm) and there is nothing majikal about the hay they eat...same old hay as everyone else;)

Nov. 9, 2009, 12:25 PM

[quote]

it could not be much worse than showing up on anything other than the "geldedsonofmrtrendy" could it ??
LOL, nope, and that's my point really. There's a snobbery amongst every discipline that if you show up on a "different" horse, you get laughed at.

"sport horse" is a narrow world to begin with....no ?

Yep, it is because of the way it's defined. But it's sad to see a group giggle and snicker and flat out be nasty to people who have the desire to at least try their "different" horse in that sport

anyway they are good customers of ours (we have more than one farm) and there is nothing majikal about the hay they eat...same old hay as everyone else;)
Same ol' manure too, just as good as the "purebred" WB ;)

RougeEmpire

Nov. 9, 2009, 12:52 PM

If I had told my "Great Uncle Earl" that people drop 100k on a horse that they NEVER rider outside of an arena, that must live mostly in a stall, shod on all four, blanketed year round and eats more than just hay he would have called them 'plumb crazy'. My Great Uncle Earl (my grandmothers brother) spent his life living and working on the famous Pitchfork Ranch. Talk to him about great ranch horses and great studs and eventually the conversations turns to money. What was paid for the great 'stud horses' of their time way back in the day. Those people paid some hefty prices for what because some of the best known QH stallions in history.

Honstly it would make more sense to him pay good money for a proven "using horse" that put out money on a horse that "aint never been out of a pen". Gypsys believe it or not are "usin horses", the Travelers STILL use them for traveling. More to the point in America horses are LUXURY items that are for all intents and purposed nothing more than big pets. Even our fancy shmancy 'show horses' fetch huge dollars are nothing more than hobbies. There are very FEW true working horses left in America. One could argue that the horses bred and USED by the Travellers are the FEW real working horses left in England.

What Im trying to say is that horses in America are HOBBIES and LUXURY items (unless you are working cattle on an actual cattle ranch, a Mounted Police Officer so on and so forth). Therfor "value" and "worth" are EXTREMELY hard to determine and extremely subjective. A horse is "worth" 1)what you can insure it for 2)what you can sell it for....and really nothing more. Gypsys and other breeds are no more "worth" less or worth more than any other "pet"/"hobbie"/"show horse" out their today. IF you can insure a gypsy/showhorse/warmblood/TB/whatever for 25k than thats what its WORTH. IF you can get 25k for the same (see above) that thats what the SALE is worth. It's really as simple as that.

RedMare01

Nov. 9, 2009, 01:38 PM

RedMare, what was the GV in training for? Unless it's a very breed-specific show, I can't imagine anyone wanting to take the chance on the ridicule of a GV in "normal" shows.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious from the thread, the GV was sent to a dressage trainer in Wellington. From what I understood, the trainer was willing to show him if he'd shown suitability for dressage...which he didn't at all. Besides just plain not being suitable, I think another big problem was lack of endurance (that didn't get better with time and lots of conditioning...may have had something to do with Florida heat?). They did body clip him while there, but all that mane and the feathers were still there.

Caitlin

europa

Nov. 9, 2009, 01:44 PM

Nov. 9, 2009, 01:45 PM

Nov. 9, 2009, 01:49 PM

If you can show me 1 example of an olympic caliber vanner in any of the above mentioned disciplines then I might agree with you. Sorry.....just doesn't hold water the argument.
What argument? Why does a horse or a breed have to be bred to the hilt for the Olympic disciplines to be worth anything?
Do you know how much some really good Foxhunters sell for? Some of them are *gasp* part draft!

RedMare01

Nov. 9, 2009, 02:09 PM

Rouge, awesome post, very nice.
RedMare, sorry, I might have just missed that :) How did the trainer define "suitability"? It doesn't really matter, we don't have to continue the conversation, I'm just curious. It just makes me wonder if "suitability" in her mind was FEI level, when he might be a perfectly suitable 2nd Level horse :) Being a drafty-type, I wonder if EPSM is present in the GVs? If so, that could explain a lot about his lack of ability to condition.
Just rambling :)
Not sure of the level the trainer expected, though I know that she was showing others at 1st/2nd levels, so I don't think high expectations were the problem. I don't think they ever got that far, as the GV never really conditioned to the point that they could make it through a respectable test.

Another big problem with the breed (for dressage..not sure if it's been mentioned) is that most of them are very downhill. As in, really, really downhill. The one I knew wasn't as bad a some, but it's a pretty common issue from the one's I've seen.

Don't get me wrong, they're cute and fun to play around with (if you're into the My Little Pony's). But 99% of them are not going to make respectable dressage horses. JMO.

Caitlin

europa

Nov. 9, 2009, 02:11 PM

Never said that but typically you pay larger amounts of money for something special
A car with a bigger engine
A watch with diamonds etc etc

So they are worth something because they are calm and unflappable? Well there is some worth to that but not the money we are talking about. They are not very athletic so you are talking about a horse that on a good day can maybe jump a 3 foot field obstacle. Ok for foxhunting but you could buy any type of good natured horse for that. My first horse was a roan mutt QH so I have nothing against off breeds but there has to be some REASON and LOGIC built into the equation. Not to mention the post was about a GV for dressage....please pass the JELLY.

Now if you like spotted horses with feathers go for it but to argue they are this great useful animal....NAH. Not to mention the fact that a BREED can usually show some of its ancestors on paper...WINK WINK.

cloudyandcallie

Nov. 9, 2009, 02:54 PM

HUH......Most WBs were bred to be very hardy. In fact they were mainly carriage horses and also were expected to be riding horses on the off time. They have honed them to be very tractable and athletic with good bone size. They are expensive because of the investment in generations of people who have given their life blood to furthering their lines and promoting their abilities. They got NO special treatment during the last war that is for sure.

They are bred to excel at whatever discipline you are in interested in doing whether that be driving, show jumping or dressage. If you can show me 1 example of an olympic caliber vanner in any of the above mentioned disciplines then I might agree with you. Sorry.....just doesn't hold water the argument.
:yes::yes:
I say each to his own. I know a cother who used to get cheap TBs with issues, and she sold them to her students for 20000. One got donated pretty quickly to a therapeutic riding center since it was not suitable for hunter/jumper. That I think is much worse than someone selling a GV that is sound to someone for $$$.
I had a great TB and have a great German WB. (related by blood.:cool:) Do I diss other breeds, no way. Different likes and dislikes make the world go round. I have friends with Clydesdales and have seen the friesian stud down here at shows, but I spent my life since I was a child clipping feathers off of horses, so I do not like hairy breeds for myself. If you think a horse is worth $100000 and buy it and have no buyer's remorse, great for you!

Koniucha

Nov. 9, 2009, 04:48 PM

Just to make it clear Koniucha, you were the one who came here and used the [edit] word, [edit]. lol

To make it even clearer, I was not calling anyone that word, but when I did use the word, you stated that yes they are because of this that and the other.

kookicat

Nov. 9, 2009, 05:49 PM

They are just really hairy cobs. :winkgrin: Tend to move more up and down, with more knee action than most dressage horses. Tend to be fairly quiet, very food motivated and easy keepers. Can also be quite stubbon and opinionated. ;)

Heck, I know where there's a field full of them. Anyone want to buy one for £10k? ;)

Susan P

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:09 PM

The value of a horse or anything is what someone is willing to pay for it. :yes:

The worth of a horse is what someone is willing to pay for it, or thinks it's ok to pay. Just because it's not "worth" it to you does not in any way mean it's not worth it to someone else.

*I* TOTALLY think it's worth paying $25k for a brand new Mercedes Benz, but not worth it for $40k. That doesn't mean I'd want one, even if I had $25k, to spend on a car - I don't want that car. *I* think it's totally not worth it to pay whatever it costs to buy a Hummer, even if it were $1000, but others obviously think it's worth it to buy one for $40k or whatever their sticker price is.

Worth is relative, and nobody has the right to impose their sense of worth on someone else.

Coppers mom

Nov. 9, 2009, 08:18 PM

What argument? Why does a horse or a breed have to be bred to the hilt for the Olympic disciplines to be worth anything?
Do you know how much some really good Foxhunters sell for? Some of them are *gasp* part draft!
Because there are already thousands of sweet, reliable, cuddly horses that will only ever do 1st level. Why breed more? Why go ahead and breed for them to top out at average? I mean, even purpose bred horses mostly never reach FEI level, why breed for mediocre? It makes no sense.

RougeEmpire

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:34 AM

siegi b.

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:50 AM

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 10, 2009, 09:56 AM

Because there are already thousands of sweet, reliable, cuddly horses that will only ever do 1st level. Why breed more? Why go ahead and breed for them to top out at average? I mean, even purpose bred horses mostly never reach FEI level, why breed for mediocre? It makes no sense.

FEI rejects are not always good amateur horses, and there is definitely not a large supply of GOOD, reliable lower level horses. I don't breed for an Olympic caliber horse, but that doesn't mean some of my "rejects" don't have the talent to get there. My goal is to produce nice horses with a range of ability to be regionally competitive, and sometimes nationally competitive.

Just because someone only wants to do 1st or 2nd Level does not mean they don't want to WIN at that level. They may totally have their goals at that level because they can only ride their horse 2 or 3 times a week. That does not mean they should have to choose a horse that moves like it has navicular. But they also don't need a horse that will jump out of its skin if the tent flaps in the breeze.

Breeding for the top with high "ridability" scores will get you a very sensitive, reactive horse that most amateurs don't want, and can't ride. It also takes a very athletic rider to ride Olympic type gaits.

Most Gypsy Vanners will probably not fit the bill for amateur dressage riders either, as they have not been purposely bred.

TrotTrotPumpkn

Nov. 10, 2009, 10:04 AM

I have never seen a Gypsy in person --or even video for that matter. I have a friend who is thinking about getting into breeding these cute little horses and having dressage for a goal. Has anyone seen these guys in dressage? Any of you breed these guys? I have heard some prices of high $50k's for 2 year olds....I must say, my jaw dropped a bit. But, I know nothing of these horses.

I think we are losing sight of the OP's original question.
1. Has anyone ever seen these horses in dressage?
2. Does anyone on this forum breed them or breed them for dressage?

Now to get back to the current argument.
1. Yes, I agree, you can breed whatever you want and horses are (except in very limited, already named circumstances) a luxury item.

But WHY would you purposefully breed more training level horses (someone show me one competing higher and I will modify that level) when the market is saturated (I do think it is--at least here)? Also, why wouldn't you want a competitive training level horse--are GV going to be more competitive than the others? I think instead of a "because I can" argument you could ask--does this make good business sense? Is this in the best interest of the horse? Is it in the best interest of the sport?

Maybe she would be better off breeding them for their traditional market? Or maybe if she wants to breed dressage horses she will want to breed a different breed. Or breed GV crosses to x?

SaddleFitterVA

Nov. 10, 2009, 10:17 AM

RougeEmpire

Nov. 10, 2009, 10:24 AM

Rouge Empire - I hope you stick to your own advice since you obviously base all of your knowledge on "using horses"....

On the other hand, I intend to continue breeding excellent Dutch warmbloods that will do well in the sport. :)

NO I do not base all of my knowledge on using horse. What Im saying is that the breeding of horses in America is BUSINESS to supply the hobby the Luxury market, its about the SALE. The reason Warmblood breeders their panties in a wad over things like Gypsys and other such breeds is because in the end someone dropping 20k a Gypsy instead of a Pedigreed Warmblood is a LOST SALE. More to the point if a Ammy Dressage rider buys something like a Gypsy for DRESSAGE INSTEAD of a 'purpose bred' Warmblood its REALLY a lost sale. If breeders REALLY bred their horses for the love of the breed and the sport how much they lose or make would not matter to them. They would not care one iota if Amy Ammy tried out their warmbloods but bought a Grypsy as her Ammy Dressage mount instead. Gypsys and other such breeds are marketed towards the AMMY market, not the pro market.

Its no different than than a Dressage student taking lessons looking to buy a 30-40 k horse from her trainer, then taking a lesson on a Reining horse from a neighboring trainer. Deciding she likes Reining way more and buying a reining horse instead. The Dressage trainer may well be very PO'd because she just lost a sale. Wamblood breeders often feel that the prices of 'gypsy cart horses' DEVALUE their Warmblood sales horses because they often sell for the same price. But lest face it the cost of creating a 20k warmblood is usually much HIGHER than a 20k Gypsy. The fact is its a BUSINESS.

I have a friend that has gone from breeding QHs to breeding Friesians to breeding (you guessed it) Gypsys in the the last 15 years. She ROLLS WITH THE MARKET. She has always bred nice horses with good conformation and suitable temperments but it's a business for her and she has made a LOT of money doing it. She never bred junk or poor quality horses they always recieved great care. If Gypsys for the better funded Ammy class is where the money is then so be it. In a few years it will likely be another breed. I even have a friend who went from putting a few Warmboods on the ground every year to sell to putting Gypsys on the ground. Why? because the COST is lower but the sales price is pretty close to the same. It was a very good business choice for her. A lot of money can be made catering to the LUXURY Ammy Dressage market, but only if you have good business sense, sell whats HOT and keep your costs low. Right now Gypsys are HOT, cheap to maintain and easy to buy in bulk for resale.

There is no sense in OTHER breeders holding a grudge against successful business people. The Gypsy breeders arn't competing with PRO market, they are competing with the Ammy market. Gypsys will never be a threat to the Pro Horse Sales Market.

Tamara in TN

Nov. 10, 2009, 10:43 AM

[QUOTE=SaddleFitterVA;4490466]
Truly, the horses at the site that Tamara posted, they live in luxury from the photos.

and forgot to mention their twitter page:

http://twitter.com/GoGypsyHorse

I wish we could make welsh cobs that sexy:lol:;)

Daydream Believer

Nov. 10, 2009, 10:52 AM

NO I do not base all of my knowledge on using horse. What Im saying is that the breeding of horses in America is BUSINESS to supply the hobby the Luxury market, its about the SALE. The reason Warmblood breeders their panties in a wad over things like Gypsys and other such breeds is because in the end someone dropping 20k a Gypsy instead of a Pedigreed Warmblood is a LOST SALE. More to the point if a Ammy Dressage rider buys something like a Gypsy for DRESSAGE INSTEAD of a 'purpose bred' Warmblood its REALLY a lost sale. If breeders REALLY bred their horses for the love of the breed and the sport how much they lose or make would not matter to them. They would not care one iota if Amy Ammy tried out their warmbloods but bought a Grypsy as her Ammy Dressage mount instead. Gypsys and other such breeds are marketed towards the AMMY market, not the pro market.

There is no sense in OTHER breeders holding a grudge against successful business people. The Gypsy breeders arn't competing with PRO market, they are competing with the Ammy market. Gypsys will never be a threat to the Pro Horse Sales Market.

Touche Rouge :yes:

rugbygirl

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:03 AM

I can't imagine anyone wanting to take the chance on the ridicule of a GV in "normal" shows.

Echoing others, showing up with anything that doesn't look like a plain-coloured warmblood at Hunter or Dressage shows gets you laughed at. Just like not having the right clothes, the right trainer, the right whatever (also, riding badly gets you laughed at...although having all of the 'right' stuff seems to confuse most railbirds about the real quality of your riding)

There is a GV breeder where I do my training and showing. I have seen their horses at Open shows but not in the Dressage ring. They seem (my impression only) to make really nice family horses that everyone in the family takes a turn at riding. There is a penchant here to use them in Western Pleasure (this being a heavily Western riding region). The GVs seem to enjoy the low headset and toned down pace, and they really do look a pleasure to ride.

Having seen Daventry's Welsh Cob Stallion do Dressage (he was a VEEERY tough act for my Clydesdale to follow that day ;) ) I would agree...go for Cobs if you want to breed that type for Dressage.

moonriverfarm

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:29 AM

goodpony

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:36 AM

I have a friend who is a serious dressage competitor who told me she is going to begin competing a GV stallion locally here in Northern CA, I look forwards to seeing him out next season.

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:37 AM

ise@ssl

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:41 AM

My Irish friends are all amazed that so many people here in the US spend big bucks on Tinkers (yes that's what they all call them). They joke that everyone sellng them to the US is laughing all the way to the pub! As far as using them for dressage - Good driving horses are built to be on the forehand. I used to drive years ago and can't understand why people can't leave those horses bred for centuries to be DRIVING horses for DRIVING. It's difficult to find saddles to fit a good driving horse and very often impossible to train them to move off the hindend and "sit".

The Tinkers are flashy and as someone stated they probably make good family horses for all around riding but in the Dressage ring I can't see them going above Training with acceptable scores.

NoDQhere

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:45 AM

The reason Warmblood breeders their panties in a wad over things like Gypsys and other such breeds is because in the end someone dropping 20k a Gypsy instead of a Pedigreed Warmblood is a LOST SALE. More to the point if a Ammy Dressage rider buys something like a Gypsy for DRESSAGE INSTEAD of a 'purpose bred' Warmblood its REALLY a lost sale. If breeders REALLY bred their horses for the love of the breed and the sport how much they lose or make would not matter to them. They would not care one iota if Amy Ammy tried out their warmbloods but bought a Grypsy as her Ammy Dressage mount instead. Gypsys and other such breeds are marketed towards the AMMY market, not the pro market.

Actually the reason many of us WB people get our panties in a wad is this: Ms. Ammy buys an inapproiate horse when she decides to do Dressage, wants lessons on said beast, becomes very discouraged when said beast can't get anything done at the Dressage Shows, sells beast at a big loss, and is LOST to our industry. Many more than just the breeder who "lost" the sale are affected.

I love your comment that if we really loved our breed and our sport we wouldn't give a hoot :lol::lol::lol:. about "sales" Allrighty then. On this planet some of us do this as a business, I don't think this makes us bad :lol::lol:. And so far no one who has tried out one of our Warmbloods has bought a Gypsy instead.

Riding a horse that has been purpose bred for your chosen discipline is always a good idea weather you barrel race or ride dressage.

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:48 AM

The Tinkers are flashy and as someone stated they probably make good family horses for all around riding but in the Dressage ring I can't see them going above Training with acceptable scores.

and that is probably the goal for most people that purchase GVs. They like the look, and it fits their need for a fun pleasure horse that they can occasionally take to a few schooling shows.

That is not a bad goal if it is what a person wants to do.

Nov. 10, 2009, 12:30 PM

There is a GV farm that splits its time between NC and FL who has a mare who is and has been competing successfully up to 2nd Level. At recognized shows (ie not some backyard show, not a GV-only show). She's earned her Training Level Performance Certificate, and has half of the required scores for her First Level Performance Certificate (at least as of '08).

Now granted, any sound horse with good training and riding should be able to obtain respectable scores up to 2nd Level. But as already pointed out, that might be as far as anyone has aspirations for, and so what? If they want to do that on a pretty, flashy, feathery black and white GV, more power to them! Pick the horse that is built most appropriately and go for it.

At what point will all those who get so ruffled about these horses stop getting so ruffled? How long do they have to be bred as GVs to become something more than "just a colored mutt that some dirty gypsies started breeding"?

Some of you have problems with the price - I'd bet some of you also have a $4k saddle just because you could and you wanted to say you had a *custom* saddle, when a $2300 Prestige might have fit your horse just as well. People will spend their $$ on what they want to and it's none of your business.

europa

Nov. 10, 2009, 12:39 PM

I would ride one perhaps if I lived in Narnia......OOPS did I just say that? HA HA

Pass the BON BONS.....next subject pulezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Nov. 10, 2009, 12:44 PM

europa, really? That was necessary? If this subject bothers you, ignore the thread.

FYI, you can see the mare I referenced in this link
http://www.photosbybarb.com/Summer%20Sizzler%20Dressage%20July%202009/kuchi/index.htm

Her name is Kuchi. No, she won't make FEI levels, but she certainly looks quite acceptable here, where it's all about the correctness and timeliness of the movements.

europa

Nov. 10, 2009, 12:51 PM

I was just kidding.....come on joke joke.

Where is everyone's sense of humor? Where is Tom Cruise when you need him to come riding in?

My only point is they are not a breed. A breed denotes some documentation of heredity.

Nov. 10, 2009, 01:10 PM

How far back does the documentation have to exist? How about all the QH's who trace back to "unknown" mares? Does that make those lines not QH? How many breeds originated as a type, where a known pedigree didn't matter, just that they fit a certain type?

How about the WB lines that have, somewhere back there, the "unknown" mare who was someone's nice farm horse?

How about the QH's who trace back to "percheron mare"?

AFAIK, if you breed a GV to a GV you get another GV - same body type, the feathering, etc. Sounds like a breed to me ;)

Kyzteke

Nov. 10, 2009, 01:13 PM

I hesitate to call those who have marketed and profited from these feathered, oversized, spotted ponies anything beyond clever.

Truly, the horses at the site that Tamara posted, they live in luxury from the photos.

I have no idea what those people pay for their imported "gypsies", but I imagine they can afford it.

A horse is worth what someone is willing to pay, and if someone is new to breeding and wants to buy some specialty breed, and has no knowledge, then don't blame the person who sells them the horses.

A fool and his/her money are easily parted.

It is not the seller's responsibility to determine the knowledge base of the buyer, beyond basic care. And, the sellers probably assume that someone who is spending mid 5 figures on a horse, and exporting it to the states knows something.

Especially when the horse being sold has no special athletic talents.

Lovely marketing and really, true capitalism as the core value there.

You totally hit the nail on the head here. These horses were not a "breed" till some very smart fella made them one and trademarked the name Gypsy Vanner. They were (and are) simply cute, little, hairy, piebald cobs. And who knows....maybe it wasn't the American fella who was the shady dealer...maybe it was the gypsy. I mean, they are not known for their extreme honesty in their business dealings :no:.

As mentioned, I have only a limited amount of sympathy for the people who paid $20-50K for them as well....apparently thinking they WERE rare and magikal.

The fact that the "breed" or most individuals have nothing to recommend them other than their hair, color and placid disposition is (I guess) beside the point, as long as the buyer did not have dreams of winning the Tevis on his GV or taking the gold at the next Olympics.

I just wonder how the heck this guy did it. I mean, did he TELL the buyers -- "you know, these horses aren't really good for anything other than dinking around on, but they are calm & cute and you can braid their leg hair..." or did he make all sorts of false representations?

That's the kind of stuff that makes me sad about the whole saga.

Like the early WB breeders who convinced folks crossing a TB & a Perch made a WB. Or a breeder I know who convinced over 200 mare owners to breed their QH/Appie/Perch/Morgan mares to his "hanoverian" stallion so they could get their own "hanoverian WB"...neglecting to mention that, while the stallion was indeed a registered hanoverian and did indeed have balls, he had been rejected for approval by AHS, OldNA, GOV, etc. But people were so new to the WB idea of approval, etc. they simply had no idea that you could not get there from here.

They TRUSTED this person, and gladly forked over their $$$. Same with GV's.

So I'm sort of torn....

However, in answer to the OP's question:

NO, the GV is not particulary suited for dressage, but you could probably show it in Training Level and get scores in the 50's :D.

But if the OPs friend really wants to show in dressage, and insists on keeping the hair-factor, she's better off with the Friesan.

europa

Nov. 10, 2009, 01:16 PM

Show me one with 2 generations.

Come on you can't possibly be serious.

When was this breed established? Not to mention what are the breed standards? They can be mini or drums or whatever from 14.1 to 16 +. Everyone in England understands just wondering what soo many here don't seem to get it.

If you want a horse that is really quiet and great on trails go for it.

Fancy That

Nov. 10, 2009, 01:19 PM

At the risk of sounding obtuse, who the heck cares whether you or I like a warmblood, cob, arab, shetland or Thoroughbred? SOMEBODY does, which fuels the market for that particular breed. When I was coming up in the horse world, foxhunting and showing hunters, the breed of the moment was the TB if you rode English and the regular, working QH if you rode Western. NOBODY cared a whit about a "warmblood". May as well have been a donkey. Then someone marketed them as something special, bred them with some good stock and presto: they became the breed of the moment. What people will pay for, people will breed. don't look down on GV breeders, it makes you look childish and jealous. If there was not a market, there would be no breeding.
All this arguing has made me want one. I think they are lovely, sweet, trustworthy and look like a great one for an all day trail ride.

You took the words right out of my mouth! Couldn't have said it better.

GVs are NOT "FEI suited" dressage horses. But if someone wants an all arounder for the family that can go out and do a little bit of everything, why not? Sure - TONS of different horses and ponies can do that (be a family/pleasure type horse) but what if the buyer happens to just love the look and appeal? More power to them if that's what they want.

I don't think anyone would argue that they are purpose bred for any of the Olympic disciplines. They are what they are - and I happen to think they are super cute and cuddly looking!

As for the OP's question..... I personally wouldn't be breeding GV's if I was seriously focused on dressage. No way. But can a GV do lower-level dressage? Yep. ANY. HORSE. PONY. MULE. or DONKEY CAN. If it walks, trots, canters and halts in a relaxed manner, with obedience and precision, etc....you have yourself a Training Level dressage horse :)

siegi b.

Nov. 10, 2009, 01:20 PM

To the best of my knowledge I have never had "my panties in a wad"...:)

Rouge Empire - you obviously don't understand what breeding is all about. Let me just mention that it involves lots of research and education on bloodlines, conformation, breeding indices, etc. etc. in order to produce quality horses on a regular basis.

So no, your story about your friend that went from breed x to breed y and then to GVs and is now rolling in dough, didn't impress me much.

I'm in this breeding business because it's very satisfying to see my "products" do consistently well over many years, and it's that consistency that continues to bring me new clients.

As far as I'm concerned this is a free country and people can spend their money on whatever they like, and that includes GVs. I just thought the original question had something to do with GVs and their possible use in dressage, and to that I still say no. :no: Dressage is a difficult enough sport without making your life even tougher because of a horse with the wrong talent.:yes:

Nov. 10, 2009, 01:30 PM

Show me one with 2 generations.

Come on you can't possibly be serious.
http://web.mac.com/wrranch/http%3A__web.mac.com_wrranch_iWeb/WR_Tinker_Toy.html

Tinker Toy, by Paddy, out of Panda's Rose. Paddy is by Paddy Horse. Panda's Rose is by Sid's Good Stallion and out of Rose.

2 generations, and Panda's Rose has several foals so they all have 3 generations.

Should I keep going back?

When was this breed established?
Don't know specifically, but they've been bred in the US for about 13 years. That means there are several generations with absolutely at least 2 traceable generations.

Not to mention what are the breed standards?
http://gypsyvannerhorsesociety.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/breedstandard.pdf

They can be mini or drums or whatever from 14.1 to 16 +.
So? The Welsh breed has 4 distinct types as well, ranging from the A with a max height of 12.2h, to the B with max 13.2, to the C with 13.2 but a heavier body type, to the D which must be at least 13.2 and no upper height limit.

Heck, I believe there's even a Quarter Pony registry for QH's who are pony sized ;)

europa

Nov. 10, 2009, 01:54 PM

I still see no pedigrees on that site.

TrotTrotPumpkn

Nov. 10, 2009, 02:04 PM

OP--has the thread been at all helpful for your friend? Just wondering what he/she thinks?

Kyzteke

Nov. 10, 2009, 02:10 PM

OP--has the thread been at all helpful for your friend? Just wondering what he/she thinks?

Hmmmm---"for GAWD'S SAKE don't ever ask COTHers anything again!!"?:eek:

At least, that's my guess:winkgrin::yes::lol:

Nov. 10, 2009, 02:40 PM

I still see no pedigrees on that site.

You're not looking ;)

They don't list the traditional pedigree-tree.

I didn't make up the sires and dams.

cloudyandcallie

Nov. 10, 2009, 03:01 PM

Oh heck, just call them a registry like our european WBs and see how they do at shows.

Anyone on this thread who has sold (or bought) a horse for big $$$ should not be complaining about GVs.

I know nothing about GVs, but now I'm gonna cheer for them to win at dressage!

SmartAlex

Nov. 10, 2009, 03:08 PM

OP--has the thread been at all helpful for your friend? Just wondering what he/she thinks?

I was thinking at this point the OP was thinking "Sorry I asked!"

for the record, I think the Vanners are pretty but would never in a million years buy one (even if they didn't cost $50,000 and WERE majikal) because of the grooming maintenance. I've already cured myself of wanting a dapple grey ever EVER again!

europa

Nov. 10, 2009, 03:11 PM

Exhibit A
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/the+gypsy+king2

Also, I find it very interesting that Rose had soooo many offspring! They are all out of that mare. If you really look into who they are OUT of you will find that the really magikal thing is how many are from the EXACT same horses and foundation horse and lob mare or lop-eared mare. HMMMMMMMMM

Ex: Just looking I found 2 other totally different stallions with Sid's Good Stallion in the pedigree with totally different birthdates. Did Sid have that many good stallions? Enquiring minds want to know. And further was Sid good at dressage? Sorry but I just couldn't resist.

Please let this thread die.

Nov. 10, 2009, 03:43 PM

You really expect ABP to be correct? Don't count on it ;)

TrotTrotPumpkn

Nov. 10, 2009, 03:57 PM

Hmmmm---"for GAWD'S SAKE don't ever ask COTHers anything again!!"?:eek:

At least, that's my guess:winkgrin::yes::lol:

I concur! I do always wonder what happens to the OPs in these wrecks?? But the fact that the thread is a wreck (or headed that direction) could, in fact, indicate to the friend the types of attitudes he/she will face?? So maybe it is a good thing--depending on their level of committment?

And for the record, Europa, if I ever get to Narnia I'm riding the lion--any other mythical land, I'm totally riding a badass dragon or a purple unicorn with glitter hooves.

Tamara in TN

Nov. 10, 2009, 04:05 PM

[QUOTE=europa;4491143]Exhibit A
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/the+gypsy+king2

Also, I find it very interesting that Rose had soooo many offspring! They are all out of that mare. If you really look into who they are OUT of you will find that the really magikal thing is how many are from the EXACT same horses and foundation horse and lob mare or lop-eared mare. HMMMMMMMMM

as a purely practical matter, how many hunter ponies have been called "Blue" or "Rain" this or that over the years when they were really apple butted arabs with straight faces ;) ??

thousands of Welsh have had their histories stolen over the years and dumped nameless into the hunter world and have become "new animals"...so I don't fault the GV folks none there...

I myself hate paints and apps so there would be a big sticking point for me...and them manes would be getting roached off clean like a work mule...:lol:

best

moonriverfarm

Nov. 10, 2009, 04:11 PM

Fancy That, I loff you.:winkgrin:
Can't we find something else more important to commiserate on?
You like it, you will buy it. For what YOU think it is worth!
FYI, I own six precious wee chihuahuas and to ME they are worth a jillion dollars. To you, not so much.
One man's trash, another man's treasure.
Let's be nice or be gone here!

europa

Nov. 10, 2009, 04:12 PM

Actually if I am picking mythological creatures for 2000 Alex then I want to ride that creature Beak or whatever his name was from the Harry Potter movie. WOWSA

Nov. 10, 2009, 04:17 PM

I'm soooo going to be riding one of the dragons from the Dragon Riders of Pern series!

Daydream Believer

Nov. 10, 2009, 04:24 PM

Actually the reason many of us WB people get our panties in a wad is this: Ms. Ammy buys an inapproiate horse when she decides to do Dressage, wants lessons on said beast, becomes very discouraged when said beast can't get anything done at the Dressage Shows, sells beast at a big loss, and is LOST to our industry. Many more than just the breeder who "lost" the sale are affected.

Don't you see though...to someone else, a GV might be **appropriate** for them. Just because you think only WB's are the only appropriate purpose bred horses for dressage, doesn't mean you are right or that they are appropriate for someone else's situation....likes, dislikes, etc...

I known of a number of ammies now who have gone out and spent mega $$$ on a WB who wished they hadn't later. They thought they had to have one to be "competitive" and got a horse they could not enjoy..usually because they could not ride it well or get along with it temperamentally...and they end up disenchanted just as badly or worse than the scenario you paint above.

I truly don't care if someone wants to ride a GV and perhaps for that person that GV is "perfect." There is no one answer for everyone...people are all different. Live and let live.

Coppers mom

Nov. 10, 2009, 10:24 PM

Why breed horses at all? Save for the Mennonites, the few still existing Mounted Police Forces and hand full of still hanging on cattle ranches there is NO REASON to breed horses. The horse in American is a Luxury Item and a Hobby. A "show horse" even of the highest "quality" is just as pointless as a hairy trail horses. There is no REASON to breed horses in AMERICA, there for there is no "one kind" that is any less pointless than any other.

You've missed the point completely. And I'm not talking about purpose bred warmbloods, since that's the first thing everyone jumps to as soon as "not suitable" comes up.

There are a TON of horses who are only capable of doing the lower levels. Tons of sweet, quiet, reliable animals. They are born every day. Even the most purpose bred horses are more likely to turn out packing an ammie around than going to the Olympics. So why, when there is a huge surplus of totally suitable mounts, would you breed more that you KNOW are never going to be anything more than a lower level horse? Not only that, but they are going to have a hard time even at the lowest rung on the ladder? Gypsy Vanners aren't suited to dressage, at all. So breeding them simply for temperament is redundant, as there are already tons of horses out there that are more suited to dressage (QH's, TB's, STB's) that are just as sweet and quiet, and more likely to be capable of doing well or going above 1st in the long run.

I think they do fill a niche market, but I don't think that they are suited as dressage horses, even at the lower levels. Even among the feathery, fantasy market, there are more suitable horses. If you want a quiet attitude and a bit of draft, there are a lot more capable options for a lot less.

Either way, I'd like one, I think they're precious. I'll go to Ireland and pay them a couple hundred bucks though, rather than dropping 20-40K over here.

BohemianRN

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:10 PM

Oy! What the hell did you have for breakfast?? :no::( Certainly not a nice way to start the new board.

Tiki is right. They are designed as a cart horse. While they are certainly cute and fancy to look at, I personally don't think they have a place in today's show ring as a dressage, jumper, eventer, etc. They are what I would call a fad breed, and while you can most certainly get them for less than $20,000 if you are looking in the right place, their price will eventually come down to a reasonable level once the novelty wears off. I had looked at purchasing one about 6 or 7 years ago, but at the end of the day, I had to ask myself, "What the heck would I do with it once I had it?" :D

I agree, I think they are cute and would make a nice horse for a timid rider or a kid interested in flat classes. However, there is one at the barn I ride at and she is being trained for jumping and dressage! She is actually a really cute jumper from what the event riders tell me. Also, her personality is stellar! While I would not buy one (very expensive for being basically paint colored feathered cobs), I do think they are pretty cool.

BohemianRN

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:12 PM

You took the words right out of my mouth! Couldn't have said it better.

GVs are NOT "FEI suited" dressage horses. But if someone wants an all arounder for the family that can go out and do a little bit of everything, why not? Sure - TONS of different horses and ponies can do that (be a family/pleasure type horse) but what if the buyer happens to just love the look and appeal? More power to them if that's what they want.

I don't think anyone would argue that they are purpose bred for any of the Olympic disciplines. They are what they are - and I happen to think they are super cute and cuddly looking!

As for the OP's question..... I personally wouldn't be breeding GV's if I was seriously focused on dressage. No way. But can a GV do lower-level dressage? Yep. ANY. HORSE. PONY. MULE. or DONKEY CAN. If it walks, trots, canters and halts in a relaxed manner, with obedience and precision, etc....you have yourself a Training Level dressage horse :)

Agree

Kyzteke

Nov. 10, 2009, 11:27 PM

If you want a quiet attitude and a bit of draft, there are a lot more capable options for a lot less.

But they aren't rare and magikal...;)

Coppers mom

Nov. 11, 2009, 12:12 AM

But they aren't rare and magikal...;)

:lol:

True. Maybe I should take my little yak of a mare and create my own breed...

stoicfish

Nov. 11, 2009, 12:49 AM

grayarabpony

Nov. 11, 2009, 01:10 AM

Unless they are an imported Warmblood. I have seen many of those that you couldn't give me at any price, but others pay big bucks because of names in their pedigree, who is selling them, etc.

I believe those people are called suckers too...

I don't care enough to really resent GV breeders, just stating my opinion.

A lot of horse prices are based on something very specific at best, which may not correlate well with rideability and/or athletic talent. For a lot of us I guess that's a good thing. How many $500 OTTBs have gone on to advanced levels in eventing and jumping, even winning Olympic medals -- quite a few. How many $35K GVs will do that -- probably zero. I heard that Bits and Pieces was part Tinker Pony, but I'll bet he was at least 50% TB. He certainly looked it.

BTW, I've got 50 acres of swampland if anyone's interested... there's certainly nothing wrong with trying to get a million dollars for it, is there?

If someone finds some Gypsy Vanners that have the pushing and carrying hind leg for dressage along with a good work ethic, and uses those for dressage breeding, or makes some crosses that produces these horses, more power to them.

pintopiaffe

Nov. 11, 2009, 07:00 AM

I'm soooo going to be riding one of the dragons from the Dragon Riders of Pern series!

In a completely non-sexual way, I LOVE YOU JB!!! :D :lol:

But the fact that the thread is a wreck (or headed that direction) could, in fact, indicate to the friend the types of attitudes he/she will face?? So maybe it is a good thing--depending on their level of committment?

As I've said before, CotH is perhaps a gathering of some of the most KNOWLEDGABLE breeders on the 'net, but they are specifically WB Breeders for the most part. We non-trads are the minority. The CotH attitudes are NOT universal by any means. <shrugs>

I love spotty cobs with baroque build, and would love to have one if I could find the right one that isn't haunch high, and the hocks come under and forward rather than out behind... oh, wait, that's how I feel about Arabs too... ;)

Nov. 11, 2009, 09:34 AM

How many $500 OTTBs have gone on to advanced levels in eventing and jumping, even winning Olympic medals -- quite a few.
How many is "quite a few"? What's the number of other horses who have also won as well as the number who have been aimed there and never made it?

How many $35K GVs will do that -- probably zero.
How many Purpose-bred horses will never get to the Olympics? Lots.

How many $$$ WBs can do trails, pull carts (competitively at that), take a kid for jumping lessons, and have fun at schooling shows? Possibly all in the same day?

If someone finds some Gypsy Vanners that have the pushing and carrying hind leg for dressage along with a good work ethic, and uses those for dressage breeding, or makes some crosses that produces these horses, more power to them.
Exactly. There already ARE some GVs doing halfway decently at least at 2nd Level. If someone decides they want to develop a line of GVs that are more dressage-suitable, they'll do that. If they don't, then they don't, but there will still be people who want a GV for the looks AND they want to dabble in some Dressage. More power to them.

Oakstable

Nov. 11, 2009, 10:11 AM

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 11, 2009, 12:49 PM

http://www.legendboy.net/

I found out about this place in Phelan, CA, when someone sent me a show premium for a CDS show they hosted.

They also are breeding warmbloods.

It's not that far from me. I should go take a look.

hmmm, they breed nice Warmbloods, have a SPS mare, a Sandro Hit foal in 2010, and breed Gypsy Vanners.

Coppers mom

Nov. 11, 2009, 10:44 PM

How many is "quite a few"? What's the number of other horses who have also won as well as the number who have been aimed there and never made it?
Most horses that end up eventing at the highest levels aren't specifically bred for it. The huge majority of horses going advanced are OTTB's or some kind of cross.

How many Purpose-bred horses will never get to the Olympics? Lots.
Right. But how many GV's are going to go to the Olympics? None. If the horse is purpose bred, it at least has a chance.

How many $$$ WBs can do trails, pull carts (competitively at that), take a kid for jumping lessons, and have fun at schooling shows? Possibly all in the same day?
I'd hazard to guess most. They breed WB's for jumping, dressage, driving, etc. And the reason they are so popular among amateurs is because they are so well known for being quiet. And again, there are thousands upon thousands of horses that could do even the lower levels better than a GV. No need for a big money, purpose bred warmblood.

Exactly. There already ARE some GVs doing halfway decently at least at 2nd Level. If someone decides they want to develop a line of GVs that are more dressage-suitable, they'll do that. If they don't, then they don't, but there will still be people who want a GV for the looks AND they want to dabble in some Dressage. More power to them.
But again, why start out with everything stacked against you? GV's aren't suited for much other than pulling carts because that's what they were bred for. You'd be starting way behind the curve. Again, there are plenty of feathered, pretty ponies that are better suited for dressage. Why breed for more mediocrity? A stock bred QH would have an easier time getting to 2nd level than a GV.

There's nothing wrong with GV's, it's not to say someone shouldn't enjoy them, but breeding them for dressage is a waste, IMO. You'd be taking them away from the breed standard just to follow a trend, and force them into something they aren't meant to do. Not fun.

Horsecrazy27

Nov. 12, 2009, 03:29 AM

OP--has the thread been at all helpful for your friend? Just wondering what he/she thinks?

Yes, thank you!

Hmmmm---"for GAWD'S SAKE don't ever ask COTHers anything again!!"?:eek:

At least, that's my guess:winkgrin::yes::lol:

Yep, that is a bit on how I'm feeling! LOL But, I understand "horse people", ask 3 horse people something about horses, you will get 3 opinions.

I was thinking at this point the OP was thinking "Sorry I asked!"

for the record, I think the Vanners are pretty but would never in a million years buy one (even if they didn't cost $50,000 and WERE majikal) because of the grooming maintenance. I've already cured myself of wanting a dapple grey ever EVER again!

:)

I concur! I do always wonder what happens to the OPs in these wrecks?? But the fact that the thread is a wreck (or headed that direction) could, in fact, indicate to the friend the types of attitudes he/she will face?? So maybe it is a good thing--depending on their level of committment?

And for the record, Europa, if I ever get to Narnia I'm riding the lion--any other mythical land, I'm totally riding a badass dragon or a purple unicorn with glitter hooves.

LOL

AnnaCrew

Nov. 12, 2009, 04:54 AM

But, if seriously to answer the initial question - Latvian breed here is similar - a cart horse, bred for generations to pull timber out of forest, plough up fields and take you in a nice sledge on Sunday morning to the church.

Roughly, lets say, about 200-300 foals of this breed were born each year for past 50 years, and only one of all these foals - only ONE - made up to top - it was Rusty with Ulla Salzgeber.

Quite a few Latvians can do bearable at lower level Dressage, but there had been only one on TOP, and even he was far from perfect.

So if your friend wants to breed GV for Dressage, the breeding program must be similar - 200-300 foals each year for next 50 years and then maybe one will make it! :D

It would be quite interesting project, but what will happens with all the horses when the novelty of GV will fade away and current average GV buyer will turn their heads towards the next fashionable breed?

I would say - Dressage is a Dressage, and GV is a GV, and they do not mix together well. Miracles happen, we all know that, but as a bank I would never support such a business project :D

Nov. 12, 2009, 08:22 AM

Most horses that end up eventing at the highest levels aren't specifically bred for it. The huge majority of horses going advanced are OTTB's or some kind of cross.
Can't disagree :)

Right. But how many GV's are going to go to the Olympics? None. If the horse is purpose bred, it at least has a chance.
I agree - that wasn't my point, but that's ok, I agree with this.

I'd hazard to guess most. They breed WB's for jumping, dressage, driving, etc. And the reason they are so popular among amateurs is because they are so well known for being quiet.
There's a difference between being "quiet" and being a push ride though. Given the many threads here, over and over, year after year, of people wanting stallions to quiet down their hot WB mare, or being told "don't breed to that WB stallion if you don't want hot", I think the WB is a bit less quiet then many give them credit for :) Obviously there are those who are absolutely known for their ammy-friendly temperament :yes: But it's not all of them by a long shot.

And again, there are thousands upon thousands of horses that could do even the lower levels better than a GV. No need for a big money, purpose bred warmblood.
If the lower levels are able correctness of the movement and the responsivness, why is this the case? Haven't many people here said ANY horse who is sound and who can w/t/c can do well at the lower levels?

But again, why start out with everything stacked against you? GV's aren't suited for much other than pulling carts because that's what they were bred for. You'd be starting way behind the curve. Again, there are plenty of feathered, pretty ponies that are better suited for dressage. Why breed for more mediocrity?
No disagreement :) I would not choose to breed a GV with a goal of Dressage in mind.

A stock bred QH would have an easier time getting to 2nd level than a GV.
Define "stock bred" ;) Many of them are purposefully bred to be downhill because of their work.

There's nothing wrong with GV's, it's not to say someone shouldn't enjoy them, but breeding them for dressage is a waste, IMO. You'd be taking them away from the breed standard just to follow a trend, and force them into something they aren't meant to do. Not fun.
Why can't there be a section of the GV who is more suited for Dressage if that's something the registry wanted to have a go at? I mean, the Dutch have a harness book and they are usually quite different in type than the riding type. Just a thought :)

grayarabpony

Nov. 12, 2009, 08:28 AM

I agree - that wasn't my point, but that's ok, I agree with this.

Oh, I'm relieved that's OK.

You think it's fine that people pay high prices for GVs. I believe they are rather foolish to pay those prices. That was my point.

Nov. 12, 2009, 08:39 AM

And I think it's rather foolish to pay $100 (or more!) for a pair of jeans. I think it's entirely foolish, regardless of price, to buy a Hummer. That doesn't mean the item isn't worth it to someone.

Daydream Believer

Nov. 12, 2009, 10:11 AM

There's a difference between being "quiet" and being a push ride though. Given the many threads here, over and over, year after year, of people wanting stallions to quiet down their hot WB mare, or being told "don't breed to that WB stallion if you don't want hot", I think the WB is a bit less quiet then many give them credit for :) Obviously there are those who are absolutely known for their ammy-friendly temperament :yes: But it's not all of them by a long shot.

Thanks for saying this. When she said that WB's are a "quiet" breed, I almost choked on my coffee. I know personally about 10-15 WB's either that I board or that are clients of mine and I'd not describe all but one or two of them as "quiet."

A couple are downright tough and one mare I know of her owners just gave up trying to train as she keeps bucking them off...and the one person got hurt badly. She's as bad on the ground and managed to kick me badly once when I was trimming her and she's by a stallion known for putting ammie friendly youngsters on the ground. I'd rank WB's today as "hot" as your average TB easily.

Personally I think the temperaments in the modern WB's are way worse for ammies than they were before all the TB was added to lighten them up. JMO...and I'm bound to be flamed but that is what I see on average.

RougeEmpire

Nov. 12, 2009, 02:12 PM

When was the last time anyone galloped their Warmblood across a battle field, Piaffed and then Passaged over the dead bodies? Seriously, its been a long time. The very idea that dressage is a Warmbloods only "sport" has been nothing more than a marketing ploy by the Warmblood breeding industry. Great marketing job by the way. By pushing the IDEA that their is a certain BREED of horses NEEDED to "do" dressage they have effectively (very effectively) not only created but outright corned the Dressage SALES market. Dressage is not something a horse IS, it's something a horse DOES. There is no such thing as a Dressage Horse, there is only a RIDING horse. There only Types of horses. As in Riding-Type, Drafting-Type, Carriage-Type, Ambling-Type so on and so forth. Some non-riding Types has been developed through ambitious breeding programs to fullfill other rolls and create a STRAIN that is of a different-type. The Warmblood Breeders for one have been very successful at this and managed to create an entire market while they were at it. The breeders that created a riding type horse out of what was MOSTLY a carriage type horse have done well by their breed and in some cases built substantial earning for their countries economy. Well done.

So I say SO WHAT if a few ambitious breeders strive to create a few STRAINS of Gypsy or Friesian or whatever to suit the COMPETITIVE dressage horse MARKET? Creating a STRAIN with a different purpose has worked well for countless breeds often without loosing the origional TYPE. Morgans, Warmbloods and Quarter horses have already done this with great success. You can have old Lippitt Type Morgan, New Super Light Type Morgan and even BIG 'dressagey type' Morgan. Everyone gets what they want, no one loses out.

Dressage has gotten so far from its roots its not even funny. Where once dressage WELCOMED anyone and everyone now they SHUN those who don't fit the MARKETING mold. The Dressage Arena has become the "Gated Community" of the riding world. The ever present "they don't BELONG here!" attitude that keeps the "riff raff, the inferior and the wrong kind" on the OTHER side of the finely groomed sand. Last time I checked dressage was for ALL horses of all kinds. Futhermore most Amature riders will never move past the big bad scarey world of Second Level. These riders do not need a Totilas or Solinero clone, infact MOST could not ride THAT trot, handle a horse THAT sensitive or THAT responsive. What most amature riders NEED is a horse that Safe, Sane and Sound.

The splint into two TYPES of Friesian is already well under way. Ironic since as the Friesian is one of the OLDEST Warmblood breeds. A few 10s of years from now we will likely have lovely STAINS of Gypsy and Friesian and other "so-called-off-type-breeds" that are built to be ACCEPTED(sold) in the Dressage Horse MARKET. This of course means more COMPETITION (insert dollar signs here) in the Sales Market. For every breed that is kept out ("Gated Community") that much LESS financial competition is present. But guess what? You're always going to have gate crashers.

With that being said as far as I'm concerned (and Im sure at least a few others) the Dressage Breeders can take that stick out their collect bum, SKOOCH over and make some room for everyone ELSE to enter the Dressage Court. Yes even a few hairy over priced Cob, a few ominous Friesians and even the occasional wild eyed Mustang. No, your Dressage Market/Marketing Warmbloods won't catch Off-Typeitis. They won't suddenly sprout feathers, shrink in height, develop stripes on the legs or eyes turn blue and they will not suddenly be worth less in insurance money or sales. The Warmbloods always have and likely always will have the Dressage Sales Market Cornered.:lol:

europa

Nov. 12, 2009, 02:25 PM

For the love of all that is holy someone crosspost this insanity on the Dressage Forum ....I am ready for a knock down drag out.

Bring on the BON BONS

Here we come Narnia. WTH is Buckbeak when you need him.

Coppers mom

Nov. 12, 2009, 03:05 PM

Can't disagree :)

I agree - that wasn't my point, but that's ok, I agree with this.
[COLOR="Blue"]Then what was it?

There's a difference between being "quiet" and being a push ride though. Given the many threads here, over and over, year after year, of people wanting stallions to quiet down their hot WB mare, or being told "don't breed to that WB stallion if you don't want hot", I think the WB is a bit less quiet then many give them credit for :) Obviously there are those who are absolutely known for their ammy-friendly temperament :yes: But it's not all of them by a long shot.
There are some very specific lines that are known for being hot, just like any breed, but the huge majority are more amateur friendly. Why do you think they've become so popular? Because they're pretty? Or because an amateur can flop around without consequence?

If the lower levels are able correctness of the movement and the responsivness, why is this the case? Haven't many people here said ANY horse who is sound and who can w/t/c can do well at the lower levels?
Sure, any horse can go w/t/c around a ring. But, to be competitive, they have to be at least suited for dressage. GV's aren't in any way shape or form meant for dressage, so they aren't going to have as easy of a time as pretty much any horse who is at least bred to be ridden.

No disagreement :) I would not choose to breed a GV with a goal of Dressage in mind.
Then why are you arguing for it? You just aren't being very clear.

Define "stock bred" ;) Many of them are purposefully bred to be downhill because of their work.
:lol:Seriously? A stock bred horse is one that's bred for working, whether it be reining, cutting, etc. And looking down hill doesn't mean that they cannot move in an uphill manner. Either way, many GV's are downhill as well, and at least a stock bred QH is bred to be ridden. Their way of going is different, and their athletic ability (in terms of riding) is many times that of a GV.

Why can't there be a section of the GV who is more suited for Dressage if that's something the registry wanted to have a go at? I mean, the Dutch have a harness book and they are usually quite different in type than the riding type. Just a thought :)
Why would they? The Dutch have a harness horse because they needed one. There are a ton of horses already 10 times more suited to riding than a GV. Why not let them continue to do what they do well? Why pull them away from the breed standard for something as silly as a fad?

Coppers mom

Nov. 12, 2009, 03:19 PM

With that being said as far as I'm concerned (and Im sure at least a few others) the Dressage Breeders can take that stick out their collect bum, SKOOCH over and make some room for everyone ELSE to enter the Dressage Court. Yes even a few hairy over priced Cob, a few ominous Friesians and even the occasional wild eyed Mustang. No, your Dressage Market/Marketing Warmbloods won't catch Off-Typeitis. They won't suddenly sprout feathers, shrink in height, develop stripes on the legs or eyes turn blue and they will not suddenly be worth less in insurance money or sales. The Warmbloods always have and likely always will have the Dressage Sales Market Cornered.:lol:
Holy cow, this whole post is just so incredibly ignorant, but I'd like to address this specific part.

Do you really think people are saying a GV isn't suited to dressage because of the market?! No, it's because they're simply not bred for riding, and are going to have a more difficult time than the average horse to do even the lowest levels. I promise, no dressage (or jumper, or eventer, or whatever) breeder is ever going to feel threatened by a horse that isn't even in the same league. The whole "skooch over" crap is just that. Crap. A good horse for that discipline is always going to be more in demand than a fantasy pony. Sure, GV's are in a niche market, but it is still only a niche market. The demand will never be that of a riding horse simply because of the lack of athleticism and the unsuitability factor.

And I'm so sick of people who don't know a lot about dressage calling themselves "outsiders", and acting like they're on the "outside" because dressage won't accept you. You know what? It's probably the crappy, "gotta be different" attitude. There are ALL types of horses doing dressage, and guess what! No one cares. It's only those who make a huge deal about "not being accepted" that seem to care. My trainer rides a honking, traditional Irish Draught stud at 2nd level, no one cares. One of the top PSG riders in our area (I think she even went to the NAJYRC) rides a STB cross, no one cares. One of the boarders rides her big headed, stock bred appaloosa at 3rd level, and surprise! No one cares. It's only those that feel the need to make a big deal about how different they are that no one wants to deal with.

cloudyandcallie

Nov. 12, 2009, 03:38 PM

People who care about just the breeding of the horse and not the performance and conformation miss out on a lot. If a horse is good at whatever discipline, who cares if it is a certain breed or not?

Excluding Trakehners (which are full of Arab and TB blood as well) WBs are in registries not in breeds. So people who have posted about the "warmblood breed" need to read a few good european wb books so they can understand the reasoning behind the concept.

WBs are full of TB blood,thank heavens, and can be very hot, altho not as hot as a good inbred ottb mare.

Carry on with the name calling.

Nov. 12, 2009, 04:34 PM

Holy cow, this whole post is just so incredibly ignorant, but I'd like to address this specific part.

I totally took her post to mean the snobbery which DOES exist in certain WB Dressage circles that if it's not a WB, then it's not suited, period. They cannot see past the fact that it's a not-WB to see what the individual horse can do.

that mentality does exist - likely always will.

That's not at all saying that even though a horse isn't a WB it can, by default, do well at Dressage.

NeverTime

Nov. 13, 2009, 08:05 AM

Actually this is an interesting discussion that has covered many aspects of the horse market.
GV remind me of alpacas. At one point they were selling breeding pairs for 60-80k in our area. They were “imported” and were very valuable because of the hair and some other things that I have forgotten about. Now, about 10 years later they practically give them away. I think they look like goofy sheep and that spitting thing is just unsanitary! I digress.
I predict this will be the same fad market trend that GV’s follow. At the end of the day they are a common horse in terms of talent, and therefore will eventually fall into the common market value. I think they are interesting, but I also really like Fjords and Icelandic ponies because of their big heart and durability.
Any animal whose value depends on its rarity (when reproduction is not an issue) will eventually come down in price. I just hope those people that paid 40K still think there horse is wonderful (aka give it a good home) when the neighbor just bought one for $300 bucks at the local auction (at least they don’t spit).

Bingo!
I hear very little about people actually competing their GVs, but I hear LOTS about people getting into breeding them.

While at a show this spring, I kept my horse at a farm whose owner took in mares for foaling. She had three small GV mares there. All were 2y.o. and unbroke (and unproven). Two had already given birth, one to a BLIND filly and the other to a colt that looked more roany than the distinct black and white I *think* is preferred in this breed. The third had yet to foal, and you could hear her all night long out in her field -- she sounded like she was chopping wood because she had some type of severe stringhalt that caused her to kick the ground, hard and repeatedly, all day and all night. It really seemed like a FABULOUS gene pool to be passing on, between the three.

All were owned by a hospital radiology tech who figured, with how much these things sell for, she could breed them for a few years and quit her day job. She planned to sell any colts she got and keep the fillies to breed again. There didn't seem to be any plan to break or ride these creatures, just to breed. And the vet at the state vet school, where they took the blind filly for an eval while I was there, sat her down and told her she should not breed the blind one. She said she'd think about his advice.
:no: :mad: :confused: :rolleyes:

Daydream Believer

Nov. 13, 2009, 08:41 AM

Just a comment on the showing of GV's. A fellow Col. Spanish breeder friend of mine in S. Dakota took a job as a trainer this summer for a farm that breeds GV's. She trained a number of them under saddle and for driving and I know by the end of the season, she had a grudging admiration for these hairy horses (as she calls them). They hauled to a show somewhere in Colorado that was USEF recognized and shared with a couple other breeds but had a GV division. She said that the turnout for the GV's was excellent. I suspect, they like many other less numerous breeds, simply lack a breed show venue or they'd be out doing more. Now in open competition against other breeds, I cannot say how many are out there, but I do know they "do" things with these cobs other than admire their beauty. I think GV's are here to stay and I suspect you will see more and more of them.

RiverOaksFarm

Nov. 13, 2009, 09:08 AM

I think there will be a big learning curve within the GV market. There are alot of similarities between the GV market, and what happened with Friesian/x breeders.

At one point breeders could pretty much sell any Friesian/x for 3, 4, 5x what they logically should have been worth, simply based on the fact that it was "part Friesian", and with no regard to the breeding of the mare or the quality of the Friesian stallion used, so many people were taking any mares they could get their hands on (regardless of quality or breeding) and breeding them to Friesians.

But..... eventually the market flooded, the fascination with owning a part Friesian just for the sake of having a "part Friesian" faded, and buyers as a whole got smarter and more selective. The most successful breeders now are selectively breeding for attributes other than simply "part Friesian" -- like some of the Friesian Sporthorse breeders who are producing horses with quality to rival many warmbloods. Meanwhile, many of the others are now struggling, finding themselves with a stockpile of years worth of slow sales and faced with leftover horses that are now 2, 3, 4 years old, in a market that can no longer sustain them.

A horse market based entirely on "rarity" is destined only to have short-term success, because popularity will lead to more breeding, and the more people breeding them, the less rare they will be. Eventually the "rare" horses need to be good at something more than just standing around being rare.

I already know of some Gypsy breeders who are introducing Friesian blood into their breeding programs, to increase athleticism and dressage suitability, without straying too far from the hair/feathers "type" of the Gypsy.

Of course, having said all that, I still stand behind my initial suggestion (post #38), which was that someone looking for hair, color, AND dressage suitability would probably be better off to model their breeding program after someone like Hidden Promise Farm (Nico, the approved pinto Friesian Sporthorse stallion), rather than starting from scratch with Gypsys.

TrotTrotPumpkn

Nov. 13, 2009, 01:48 PM

NeverTime--that has been my experience too. The woman I mentioned with all the gypsy vanners just imports and breeds to sell her "imports". They are not ridden or even shown in hand. And she actually rides and shows dressage (a lot) and even hires trainers for her horses (well not the GVs) to ride and show them as well. Why train the GV's when they are all going to be breeding stock? Oh and color and feathering is absolutley her goal. I know this is one breeder and others are likely different, but I think the analogy to the Fresian fad is correct (she used to breed them too in fact).

I also don't think the warmblood breeding community is particularly scared of this market or against outsiders. I've shown OTTBs, and even a (solid) paint in dressage. I also have felt/seen snobbery at the shows but I doubt most of the riders had a clue what I was riding until they asked--of course their saddle pad showed what they were on. The point is that is the insecurity of the other riders (and trainers)!! It is true regardless of breed or discipline. So I don't think attitude at shows is the warmblood breeders' fault...

For my own "program" if I were breeding for dressage, which I likely will when the right mare comes along, I have made the decision to use a horse bred for that. It will likely be a wb. Why? Simply because I've ridden tempis on a warmblood and he was so fluid, he lightly skipped along--FUN. While doing a single lead change on a downhill horse is laborious--for the horse. [I'm just picking on one movement for sake of example] And is it fair to the horse? As a rider (and I breed for riders) it is much more fun to ride a horse that is built for the task you are asking of it. It is also FUN to be competitive if you show--even if you are never going above second level.

Of course, and thank goodness, we are all free to do whatever it is we want. :)

Kyzteke

Nov. 13, 2009, 02:34 PM

And I think it's rather foolish to pay $100 (or more!) for a pair of jeans. I think it's entirely foolish, regardless of price, to buy a Hummer. That doesn't mean the item isn't worth it to someone.

Ok, JB, you know usually I agree with you, but I think you might be missing the point here.

GV's are not jeans or cars, they are animals. And I'm thinking most of the people who buy into this "rare" (we'll leave out the majikal part for now ;)) stuff either is doing it for the status part (and that's ok if they want to waste their $$ that way), or, because they see an opportunity to make a fast buck.

It's the latter that has such a disasterous outcome for animals, because the point is to turn them out as quickly as possible to take advantage of the "sucker" market while it's there.

This was done for SharPei dogs, Arabs, llamas, alpacas, pygmy pigs, hedgehogs...and I'm sure many, many other animals I've failed to mention. All of these animals have suffered because they've been, #1) overbred -- so when the market became over saturated and they were not longer "rare" and therefore no longer a status symbol you had tons of animals abandoned or given up. #2) most of the breeders that were in it for a quick buck did NOT breed for quality -- so in the end the breed or animal in question was left worst off then when it started!

So animals suffered -- they are ALWAYS the ones that pay for people's greed. And this pisses me off!!!:mad:

My beef is that this "craze" (like many that came before it), took what was basically a plain little spotted cob, (but probably a sound, tough little thing,) and turned it into a marketing goldmine based on it's supposed rarity (which they actually weren't, but never mind...:rolleyes:), feathers, spots & majik. No emphasis on soundness, correct conformation, gaits, athletic ability -- none of the other things that can make a horse useful in the real horse world.

So when the market softens (as it will - -it always does), what will be left in the breed? Will it be left better off or worse off? I am no expert in the breed and don't have the inside scoop, but my guess is worse, because that is what almost always happens after a fad in animals.

It sure as hell happened with SharPeis, Jack Russells (in fact most PB dog breeds that enjoyed a "fad" period), Arabs and llamas.

Fad items that lose their coolness are either tossed away, stuffed into the back of the closet or sold for far below their original value.

The fact is, the ONLY ones who benefit from animal fads are the greedy dudes who get into it early on. The people who WAY over spent usually are people who could afford it and had no sense anyway, so I don't have alot of sympathy for them. But the animals themselves....:sadsmile:

'Cause that's just what the horse world needs right now -- more unwanted, badly bred, not-really-good-for-much other-than-a-pasture-pet animals for us to figure out how to rescue & take care of....

Kyzteke

Nov. 13, 2009, 02:56 PM

All were owned by a hospital radiology tech who figured, with how much these things sell for, she could breed them for a few years and quit her day job. She planned to sell any colts she got and keep the fillies to breed again. There didn't seem to be any plan to break or ride these creatures, just to breed.

My point EXACTLY!

This thread has strayed pretty far from the OP's original question, which was "Are GV's suitable for dressage?"

Of course the answer SHOULD be "all horses can perform in dressage at some level," just the same as "all horses can compete in endurance AT SOME LEVEL" if they are sound and can put one foot in front of the other.

But the actual, honest answer is: "GV's are breed that were not bred or meant for riding, they were meant for pulling. So they would not be likely to exhibit much talent for the sport."

And, considering what alot of people are doing to the "breed" they will probably exhibit even LESS talent for the sport (or any other sport for that matter) once these sort of breeders are finished....

moonriverfarm

Nov. 13, 2009, 03:03 PM

I want a hedgehog! Really! Orphaned, unwanted hedgehogs, please call!

Kyzteke

Nov. 13, 2009, 03:36 PM

I want a hedgehog! Really! Orphaned, unwanted hedgehogs, please call!

You know, I just HAPPEN to have a rare, majikal hedgehog that I could let you have for only $600 (+s/h) if you promise it a good home :winkgrin:

Seriously, I actually stumbled on a "Hedgehog Rescue" link somewhere...can't recall. They're out there, believe it or not.

Because there always has to be someone out there prepared to sweep up the debris left from these debacles....the only problem is that, with horses, it's costs a heck of alot more to sweep than it does for hedgehogs...

And even though we can put down 10's of thousands of unwanted dogs & cats each year, we're not suppose to dispose of unwanted horses....

But THAT is a whole 'nother thread...

Anyway, if you Google it, I'm sure something will come up.

Mabelicious

Nov. 13, 2009, 05:12 PM

I just wonder how the heck this guy did it. I mean, did he TELL the buyers -- "you know, these horses aren't really good for anything other than dinking around on, but they are calm & cute and you can braid their leg hair..." or did he make all sorts of false representations?

That's the kind of stuff that makes me sad about the whole saga.
If I understand it correctly, actually, the man wasn't just clever, but actually a marketing GENIUS. When he 'invented' his magikal new breed, creating and trademarking the Gypsy Vanner name, he didn't market them to horsepeople. He had some gorgeous, slick advertisements made and ran them in luxury CAR (and maybe yacht, etc.) magazines. The logic being, the pampered wives of ridiculously rich men would see these ads in their husbands' magazines, and say, "Well, if you're getting a new Rolls, *I* want one of *those!*"

I don't have a lot of respect for him, and I don't have a lot of respect for most of the people who jumped on the Gypsy bandwagon, but I do have at least one friend with a Gypsy who is a delightfully charming gelding with a wonderful mind. My friend was careful and well aware of rampant conformational defects that many breeders are allowing to propagate, hidden under the heavy feathering.

I'm not against non-traditional breeds in dressage; my own horse is a Friesian bred for movement and brains, not hair. But I have yet to see a Gypsy excelling in dressage, so I can't see encouraging your friend to breed for that goal. If she does, she's got to first put in the hard work first to get her stock trained and shown and worked up the levels to prove they have the ability that she's aiming for in her breeding goals, or she's being no more ethical than the fairy-tale breeders in letting others go out and potentially flop bigtime in the dressage ring with horses she is promoting as dressage prospects.

carolprudm

Nov. 13, 2009, 07:49 PM

I've ridden one in Ireland. Sam was a great ATV though I'm glad I was not the one to clean those feathers after our trip through the bog.
Dressage horse not so much, trot like a pile driver and a canter to make make you seasick

Nov. 13, 2009, 08:00 PM

Ok, JB, you know usually I agree with you, but I think you might be missing the point here.
I didn't miss the point - I think I just didn't make mine clear :) My only point was that something is worth what someone else will pay for it. For those on this thread to say a GV isn't worth it are saying it not as a personal view (well, some are), but in a general view, which they have no right to do. There is always a market for certain things that a segment of society thinks is overpriced and/or useless.

But, people who buy Diesel jeans DO do it for the status - heaven forbid they buy Levis! LOL

I totally agree with you on the risk of the GVs becoming over-bred, too populous, and in the end, unwanted to the degree they are now. I'm HOPING that because there is a registry that does have standards that won't come to fruition, especially if indeed the bigger breeders out there really are in it to keep the breed (or "breed", whatever your viewpoint :)) at a quality level.

So, I don't think we're that far off :)

carolprudm

Nov. 14, 2009, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by JB http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4492346#post4492346)
How many is "quite a few"? What's the number of other horses who have also won as well as the number who have been aimed there and never made it?
Most horses that end up eventing at the highest levels aren't specifically bred for it. The huge majority of horses going advanced are OTTB's or some kind of cross.

Actually at the very top many are Irish Sport Horses, though i guess you can call that "some kind of cross"

And yup, they are bred to event as at Rolex last year

Headly Britannia
Connaught was 7th.
Arthur was 14th
Cruise Lion was 19th.
Gordonstown was 34th.

and to name a few more
McKinlaigh, Custom Made, Supreme Rock, Giltedge

Coppers mom

Nov. 14, 2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by JB http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4492346#post4492346)

Actually at the very top many are Irish Sport Horses, though i guess you can call that "some kind of cross"

And yup, they are bred to event as at Rolex last year

Headly Britannia
Connaught was 7th.
Arthur was 14th
Cruise Lion was 19th.
Gordonstown was 34th.

and to name a few more
McKinlaigh, Custom Made, Supreme Rock, Giltedge

Would you say that the grand majority are Irish though? Nope, the TB is still going strong (for now, but I digress...). I love ISH's, but 5 out of the whole group isn't the type of "a lot" that we're talking about.

Kyzteke

Nov. 14, 2009, 02:25 PM

I'm HOPING that because there is a registry that does have standards that won't come to fruition, especially if indeed the bigger breeders out there really are in it to keep the breed (or "breed", whatever your viewpoint :)) at a quality level.

Well, I hope you are right, but that sure didn't happen with Arabs (it was the "bigger breeders" who really screwed the pooch on that one...) and it sure didn't happen my own little Teke world.

Why? Well, because many of the bigger breeders were "bigger" simply because they had more $$$ and could afford more horses. But they weren't horsemen in the sense that they could really evaluate a horse. Of course, they sold horses to their peers, who were fellow rich folk, so the horses brought HUGE prices based on basically a fancy pedigree and the fact that the sire/dam had cost alot of money.

But when the tax loopholes closed, the market crashed and all these people who had some horse whose greatgrandsire has stood for $10K were left with lots of worthless horses.

I know when I went looking for an Arab I kept answering ads for horses that had pedigrees that came with all sorts of bragging rights -- STATUS pedigrees, if you will. And, MAN -- what a load of CRAP most of these horses were!! I had to sift through a bunch of junk before I found my mare, who (while she had a fairly fashionable pedigree) would have gotten laughed out of an Arab halter class. Her grandsire had stood for $10K; one of his daughters had sold as a yearling for $120,000. I paid $1500 for my mare as a 2 yr. old.

Look at what that travesty did to the Arab as a breed. This is a breed that use to be on the cover of Western Horseman (touted as a "using" horse) being laughed at for being nothing but a pretty, brainless, stick-legged idiot.

In the minds of many, they STILL think this of Arabs, because so many of what they are exposed to is still the flotsam & jetsam of that '70's/'80's marketing masterpiece and breeding catastrophe.

The fact is there ARE still really good, well-gaited, athletic, intelligent Arabs out there, but you really have to look (my opinion -- your mileage may vary).

And that was what happened to a breed that could actually do something once upon a time...not some sweet little tinker's horse...

As for the Tekes -- it seems the Russians delight in selling some of their worst junk to wealthy women from America who know how to write checks, but certainly not much about horses...

Ah, I digress....maybe I ate a bad pizza or something...

Again, I don't care if people want to waste their $$ on whatever -- what was that thing Robin Williams said? "Cocaine is God's way of telling you you're making too much money?" :)

Maybe GV fall into the same category, only hairier...:D

Coppers mom

Nov. 14, 2009, 02:34 PM

I think that the registries that take horses simply based on their parents (Arabs, QH's, TB's, etc) are more at risk for developing a lot of problems. A WB, ID (Friesians get inspected, don't they?) or some other breed that must be inspected prior to being registered has at least some safe-guard against a breeding frenzy. Doesn't mean there won't be tons of not so nice ones when they become popular, but at least there's a little bit of quality control.

Nov. 14, 2009, 07:24 PM

Coppers mom

Nov. 14, 2009, 07:47 PM

I mean, even the Curlies have an inspection process :)
Awwww, really?! I bet that's adorable :D

Nov. 14, 2009, 08:12 PM

http://www.curlyhorses.org/NACHIP.html :)

I think Sempatico has a "curly" foal in the ground - talk about adorable!

Daydream Believer

Nov. 14, 2009, 10:26 PM

Kyzteke, yes, I see what you're saying. It would REALLY, really really behoove the GV registry to get an inspection process going if they truly have the breed standards in their best interest. That's where many breeds have gone wrong - Arabs, QH, TBs, you name any breed that is simply an open registry with no quality control whatsoever. I mean, even the Curlies have an inspection process :)

Just as a point of interest...we now have a registry for Col. Spanish horses that conducts inspections and approvals for breeding stock. It is a major point of contention between the various registries (as you could imagine) but a group of folks (including me:)) are working hard to get this registry going strong. We have found it to be a big selling point to Europeans as they expect a grading process of some kind. We also feel that for our breed to achieve recognition and credibility, breeders must be held to a standard. Following this thread and the recent discussion points, it is clear that our thinking is on the right track.

This registry is only about a year old.

http://americanheritagehorse.org

Nov. 14, 2009, 10:49 PM

That's awesome DDB! I actually meant to ask you if your guys had something like that - didn't think they did but wasn't sure what might have changed. What a great thing :yes:

ClassAction

Nov. 14, 2009, 11:10 PM

Daydream Believer

Nov. 14, 2009, 11:25 PM

That's awesome DDB! I actually meant to ask you if your guys had something like that - didn't think they did but wasn't sure what might have changed. What a great thing :yes:

It has been needed for a long time but the existing registries wanted nothing to do with it. The new registry is run by a committee of members versus a few directors...so it's highly responsive to members...and we are a highly motivated group of people who realize that the survival of our breed is at stake here. It's time to quit messing around. We have reps in the UK/EU as well as Australia and Canada.

I may be headed to Switzerland in the Spring to help with a huge rare breed expo over there (OFFA) and as of right now, two of my babies are going to Switzerland in the Spring...maybe a third but that is not certain yet. It sure sounds like one HECK of an adventure! :yes:

Kyzteke

Nov. 15, 2009, 12:41 AM

I was at the Equine Affaire in MA today and I saw more than one entire row of stalls in the barn filled with GVs. Mostly for sale, mostly 1 year olds for $13,000. Yes, $13,000. I didn't see any GVs ridden or any evidence that they were ridden (like say, saddles!). I wonder how long the breeding can be sustained and what will happen to the "excess" horses when the bottom falls out of the market.

See, they are already being overbred. I mean, there aren't THAT many suckers out there, are there?

Seriously, they've obviously hit up all the rich people who don't know crap about horses and now they are trying to crack the actual equestrian (as in," we ride ours...") market...not so easy if you have a horse that essentially is not a riding horse.

As I was saying to Brad Pitt just the other day when I found him with his face buried in my garbage: "...cuteness will only take you so far..."

PS That's the name of my pit bull...get it? Brad Pitt-BULL :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Kyzteke

Nov. 15, 2009, 11:44 AM

http://www.curlyhorses.org/NACHIP.html :)

I think Sempatico has a "curly" foal in the ground - talk about adorable!

I remember him! Didn't someone post a pic of him on this board last year? He was a cutie.

DB - I think it's wonderful you are trying to institute a method of inspection in your breed. I really think this sort of process would help filter out "crap" in most breeds.

The Teke system is even worse -- it DOES have a grading, but it is done by ONE person and has been done by her for the last 20-30 years. Because during most of the (modern) history of the breed the Soviet Union had control of the studbook, the major stud farms, etc. the job of "managing" the breed was put in the hands of one person -- a government employee, if you will. That person had (and still has) the power to grade animals, change their grades when she feels like it, pull the papers on a horse, etc.

Worse system I've ever seen!! We had this person over for an "inspection" and she handed out score sheets after each eval. Imagine people's surprise when she changed many of those scores when she returned home to Russia, saying "after examining the scores I realized there were too many Elite horses, so I had to lower some scores.":eek::eek::eek:

Meanwhile, this person is ALWAYS one of the judges at major shows and stuff like crooked legs & movement aren't really looked at at all!

And the horses are most definitely not tested -- they ARE raced in Russia, but no where else. And this is a breed that was fabled for it's endurance, but there is no testing done in this regard.

So obviously the breed is making a radical departure from it's roots. All sorts of junk is being bred because it's long, wasp-waisted and shiny...

And this is a breed that probably only has about 3000-6000 purebreds worldwide...

Very sad. But a registry needs to spend money to do inspections/gradings and for small registries this is tough.

But that's why it costs me $35 to register my Teke/Arab crosses and we're done, while my WBs cost $140 for the mare, $140 for the foal, $90 per year registry membership, $90 per year "mare fee" ...and then throw in the expense of hauling to the inspection, stall fees, handling fees, etc.

I think at it's zenith the American Teke registry had something like 100 members...you can see where the problem lies.

DB -- how many members are in the CS registries?

Daydream Believer

Nov. 15, 2009, 01:52 PM

DB -- how many members are in the CS registries?

The new registry, American Heritage Horse Assoc. is up to 45 members (in one year) and our first 25 horses are being inspected now to be the "top 25" in our studbook. We have 3 to 4 times that many owned by current members but the top 25 is sort of a competition where the highest scoring horse with be AHHA #1 and so forth.

Now we have 50 years of pedigree on most of these horses from existing registries also...so again...the breed is not new at all...this is just a new approach.

To answer your question, in all the CS world and registries put together, I'd be shocked if there are more than 250 unique people involved in the breed around the world. Many of us support multiple registries and certainly all 45 of the AHHA members probably also belong to the SMR, SSMA or HOA registries..the three oldest registries in existence...and all are bloodline based only to get papers.

AHHA came into existence though in a grass roots effort to preserve and promote the foundation stock of the breed and their mission is focused on only one main strain type...the Western strains known commonly as Spanish Mustangs or Barbs. The HOA (Horse of the Americas) for example registers all strains in one studbook and has Bankers, Tackies, Spanish Mustangs, Santa Cruz horses, etc... all in one umbrella registry. Some might consider those as different breeds even so you can see how it can get confusing.

I will say though that if you stand a Marsh Tacky up next to a Spanish Mustang (of foundation bloodlines) you will not hardly be able to tell a difference. The Bankers are somewhat smaller and coarser and the Crackers a bit lighter built. What they have in common is the same basic structure and origins and would be recognizable as the same breed as the various strains of Arabians are.

Best guess puts the total CS numbers of horses (all strains to include Bankers, Marsh Tackies, Florida Crackers, Spanish Mustangs, etc...) to about 2,000 horses. Within that total number, for example, we figure the Spanish Mustangs (my horses' strain) have about 100 to 300 active breeding mares. Several of the strains like the Bankers and Tackies are under 100 mares and are nearly extinct and have issues with in breeding.

I had no idea that Akhal Tekes were still so rare. I'm sorry to hear that things are so screwed up. I truly feel your pain and frustration! Been there!