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View Full Version : Here we go again - Express Eventing



His Greyness
Nov. 6, 2009, 10:45 PM
Horse and Hound reports (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/291431.html) that Stuart Buntine is planning to organize another Express Eventing competition next year. What kind of fatal fiasco will we get this time?

LessonLearned
Nov. 7, 2009, 09:39 AM
Having watched the first one on dvd, I can't even imagine why in the world anyone would ever attempt that again. It was ridiculous for both horse and rider.

caevent
Nov. 7, 2009, 09:54 AM
Having watched the first one on dvd, I can't even imagine why in the world anyone would ever attempt that again. It was ridiculous for both horse and rider.

I'm sure Oliver Townend will ride if the prize money is big enough! :lol:
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Rescue_Rider9
Nov. 7, 2009, 09:59 AM
What is it?

atleventer
Nov. 7, 2009, 11:03 AM
is this being organized for 2009 or 10?

FolsomBlues
Nov. 7, 2009, 11:08 AM
I'm with RR...what is it?

WNT
Nov. 7, 2009, 05:50 PM
It's kind of the b******d offspring of cross country and show jumping. Imagine Rolex-type fences in a soccer coliseum jumped after a few stadium jumps. Set the optimum time at XC speed (500+ m.p.m) and see who survives. Call Again Cavalier didn't. Senseless BS, in many not-so-humble opinions.

arnika
Nov. 7, 2009, 05:56 PM
Great. I didn't think they would ever do that again. Call Again Cavalier was a really nice horse and it made me sick to find out about it.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/273032.html Here's a story about the last competition.

A short excerpt:

Just six of the 19 starters completed. William Fox-Pitt and Ballincoola finished third a couple of seconds behind Lucy and pocketed £20,000, while Clayton Fredericks was fourth on Ben Along Time. Fifth was Italian rider Vittoria Panizzon (Rock Model) and sixth was Caroline Powell (Lenamore).
Five out of the first six riders were eliminated, and it wasn't until Lucy Wiegersma, Clayton Fredericks and Oliver Townend all completed that the crowd began to rally round the event. Huge cheers greeted Oliver's round, but the atmosphere was irretrievably dampened by the loss of Call Again Cavalier.

ThatScaryChick
Nov. 7, 2009, 06:15 PM
Here's the clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocBE7OVPD_U) with Mary King and Call Again Cavaliers fall at Express Eventing. The fall happens at the very end of the clip so if you don't want to see it, avoid going past 4:30 on the clip. :(

Ajierene
Nov. 7, 2009, 06:26 PM
To me, it's more like a ramped up hunter derby. Personally, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with the idea itself - though I'm not sure the appeal either. Why not just do a hunter derby or a jumping show? Why make up this new animal?

What's the point of solid jumps in an arena?

Gry2Yng
Nov. 7, 2009, 06:31 PM
Thanks for the link. I read the story in the COTH last year, but to actually watch it (I did not watch thru to the fall.) How stupid. Can't believe legit riders did this to their horses. Talk about jerk and run and jerk and run. The little costume change thing was the topper. So sad that such a lovely horse (what a fantastic jumper) had to lose his life doing something so ill conceived.

eventr4life
Nov. 7, 2009, 08:08 PM
This is sad, because i love love LOVE cross country and being able to gallop through open fields and woods...

I just watched the clip where Call Again Cavalier falls and to me it looks some what like the riders fault... She is sitting on his back and waaayyyy behind the motion over the fence causing him to drop his hind end and fall. But thats just what i saw...

denny
Nov. 7, 2009, 09:43 PM
Why don`t we just get a bunch of little plastc Breyer event horses and run a competition in a sandbox?

It would be about as meaningful, but cheaper and safer for the horses.

StrawberryFields
Nov. 7, 2009, 11:15 PM
i agree with denny

GleeRider
Nov. 7, 2009, 11:21 PM
This is really a disgrace to eventing. If they do it again in 2010 i will be really dissapointed. Was one great horse's death not enough? It's just VERY dangerious show jumping. Not even comparable to eventing.

Noctis
Nov. 8, 2009, 08:27 AM
Why don`t we just get a bunch of little plastc Breyer event horses and run a competition in a sandbox?

It would be about as meaningful, but cheaper and safer for the horses.

This. Amen Denny.

nomeolvides
Nov. 8, 2009, 10:54 AM
It will be "in a different venue and different format", hence I am not going to knock it until I have heard what the changes will be.
What happened to Cavvy was awful, but hard lessons will have (hopefully) been learnt.

nomeolvides
Nov. 8, 2009, 10:56 AM
This is really a disgrace to eventing. If they do it again in 2010 i will be really dissapointed. Was one great horse's death not enough? It's just VERY dangerious show jumping. Not even comparable to eventing.
It will be different than last time, and more than one great horse has died at our top 4* events :( We don't even know what format it will be yet!

vineyridge
Nov. 8, 2009, 11:38 AM
I'll put my Theodore O'Connor Breyer pony against any of the "big" Breyer horses in Denny's format. :D :lol:

retreadeventer
Nov. 8, 2009, 02:36 PM
Oh it will be different than last time.

That's a wonderful excuse to do it again...what crap this was the first time. Horrors. Denny is right, as usual. Money the only reason to compete? And at any cost? Is there no end to what people will do with horses for money? Yuck. I'm with His Greyness. Thumbs emphatically down. Please take the money you are raising, whoever you are, and provide it to a needy event or series for prize money. Go much further in promoting the sport sensibly.

archieflies
Nov. 8, 2009, 07:54 PM
Who cares if it's changing... the question is still, "but why?" Yeah, it sounds like a fun enough concept from the spectator side, but still completely purposeless (and sound sliek even before the tragedy it was a bust with spectators last year). Cross country in an arena? XC is meant as a test of endurance, right? How does doing a lightning round of solid jumps in an arena test this? And if the jumps on XC are meant to simulate natural obstacles (or once were), why would we put them in a stadium? Where is the connection to tradition and purpose? Where is the fun in this? Is it just fun because you've got big crowds cheering you on? If that's what it takes to have fun...

And yes, there are sometimes fatalities in regular events... and often it is related to course design, and we grumble about tight, twisty courses with a lot of jumps close together; we bemoan the disappearance of good galloping courses... the phrase "stadium courses over solid jumps" has come up more than once... Do you see where I'm going? This event takes everything that is *wrong* with eventing and throws it all together in one place.

In short, a test of endurance put into an "express" format is not only an oxymoron, it's a recipe for carelessness.

superpony123
Nov. 8, 2009, 08:19 PM
I'm not an eventer, but I think noneventers alike know plenty about the tragic event in the past :( I am shocked that they are trying this again.. If they are, then they'd better get it right.. Not sure how that will be done, but obviously there needs to be DRAMATIC change for any of this to be reasonable :/

What kind of baffles me is that even if some riders did scratch, I'm sure the vast majority of entrants did NOT. Honestly, I don't care if i fly half the way around the world with my horse for something like this, if I took a look at the course and what was required of my horse, I'd call it quits. No life, horse or human, is worth risking for such an event :no: Now yes, event horses are awesome and hardy and durable, but a horse is a horse, not a machine. Seeing the course asked of them was ridiculous. the phases need to be shortened, and possibly reversed. the horse will be more tired after the first phase, and if my horse is getting tired, it's definitely a lot safer if he pulls a rail as opposed to getting hung up on a solid jump and breaking a leg, like call again cavalier. Time allowed should be lengthened. as for the stop and change dress-well, okay, it's silly but offers some kind of trivial excitement to the crowd and it also gives the horse a quick break. (but i would be curious to know if anyone thought to bring a water bucket for the horse!)

I'm a bit dissapointed.

Keep1Belle
Nov. 8, 2009, 08:52 PM
To me, it's more like a ramped up hunter derby. Personally, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with the idea itself - though I'm not sure the appeal either. Why not just do a hunter derby or a jumping show? Why make up this new animal?

What's the point of solid jumps in an arena?

Agreed looks like a hunter derby, but timed with an Optimum Speed and non-hunter horses...similar concept though

Disagree with why not just do a hunter derby. Because a HD is still that hunter, so if you were going fro ribbons, you may not place as well if your hoirse is not "huntery". this event is also times, which a hunter derby is not.

Right you could do a jumper show, guess they want to shake it up a bit. Im sure it needs some fone tuning.

No it is not eventing, and shouldnt be marketed as such. but wouldnt be a bad class to have at a large event, provided they work out the kins, time allowed, etc. Kind of the same wayt at large horse shows they throw in a jumping relay, etc in the evning.

JMO

fooler
Nov. 8, 2009, 10:21 PM
Why don`t we just get a bunch of little plastc Breyer event horses and run a competition in a sandbox?

It would be about as meaningful, but cheaper and safer for the horses.
Denny you are once again a beacon of reason and sanity in the midst of idiots!
Personally I will not support any 'rider' who attends this competition by riding in or auditing their clinics and where ever possible not use products they advertise. Including sending letters/emails to the manufacturers.
However I will follow their lead and place great importance on my money and keep it out of their pockets.

Equa
Nov. 8, 2009, 11:20 PM
Why not just add an extra class to the Hickstead Derby? Have it for eventers, include the freestyle dressage....Oh, but that's right, have to make it cool for the spectators, in a covered arena. Silly me!

retreadeventer
Nov. 9, 2009, 08:07 AM
Denny you are once again a beacon of reason and sanity in the midst of idiots!
Personally I will not support any 'rider' who attends this competition by riding in or auditing their clinics and where ever possible not use products they advertise. Including sending letters/emails to the manufacturers.
However I will follow their lead and place great importance on my money and keep it out of their pockets.

Fooler, that is a cool idea. As soon as the possible entrants may be publicized, let's do a list - and include the sponsors of the riders - and I'll help write a "form" letter that anyone who doesn't want to take the time to write a personal note can use if they want.

I know there are American riders who are or have considered participating with a long list of sponsors - some of whom I know are sensitive to customer comment.

There is a fellow list over in England that we could get involved in this, too. I like it when someone doesn't just talk the talk but makes an active "walk the walk" suggestion like this that is doable for everyone, and may impact this very bad competition for our sport.

I like your idea.!

nomeolvides
Nov. 9, 2009, 08:19 AM
Why not just add an extra class to the Hickstead Derby? Have it for eventers, include the freestyle dressage....Oh, but that's right, have to make it cool for the spectators, in a covered arena. Silly me!
Hickstead already has an Eventers Grand Prix, where eventers and showjumpers compete against each other. There used to be a dressage element but it got taken out.

nature
Nov. 10, 2009, 04:00 PM
Why don`t we just get a bunch of little plastc Breyer event horses and run a competition in a sandbox?

It would be about as meaningful, but cheaper and safer for the horses.

AMEN Denny!!

Go Biki!! (Love thid video)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwNJi6SUOeE

Polydor
Nov. 10, 2009, 04:34 PM
I don't follow eventing all that closely but is this express eventing the same as the "indoor eventing"??

I know The royal winter fair in toronto (happening right now) was promoting it again this year, started having it in 2006.

P.

GoLightly02
Nov. 10, 2009, 04:57 PM
People love to see horses galloping. Falling is the added "bonus". It's just wrong.
Cavalier was blinded by lights, and weirded out by the entire experience, he left long, and Mary rode the best she could.
Horse couldn't see, traveling that fast, with those lights..
It was and is a stupid idea.
Don't blame the riders. They have to pay their bills.

fooler
Nov. 10, 2009, 05:09 PM
People love to see horses galloping. Falling is the added "bonus". It's just wrong.
Cavalier was blinded by lights, and weirded out by the entire experience, he left long, and Mary rode the best she could.
Horse couldn't see, traveling that fast, with those lights..
It was and is a stupid idea.
Don't blame the riders. They have to pay their bills.

I blame the turkey who dreamed up this idiocy as well as the people who participated.
Riders who participated put their horses at risk, for the reasons you noted, in addition to the fact the 'flooring' was put in place in less than 12 hours and untested!
I will support Horsemen - not riders. Given all that we know about this, this "thing", I have no respect for any individual that will place their horse in that situation.

SevenDogs
Nov. 11, 2009, 01:09 AM
I will support Horsemen - not riders. Given all that we know about this, this "thing", I have no respect for any individual that will place their horse in that situation.

Amen!

GoLightly02
Nov. 11, 2009, 11:24 AM
These riders predominately do what their OWNERS tell them to do. You know, the horse owners?

Kinda like jockeys, really. They have very little say in the matter.

But, if you'd like to labour under that mistaken assumption, knock yourself out.

Mary King is a helluva rider/horseman.

The organizers of the event are to blame, not the people who participated. They need to eat.

OH, I forgot. This is the wealthy forum. Money isn't the object. You already HAVE it. Some people actually have to ride for it.

nomeolvides
Nov. 11, 2009, 12:16 PM
And how can anyone NOT have respect for Mark Todd, even if he did take part in EE? :eek:

RAyers
Nov. 11, 2009, 04:32 PM
These riders predominately do what their OWNERS tell them to do. You know, the horse owners?

Kinda like jockeys, really. They have very little say in the matter.

But, if you'd like to labour under that mistaken assumption, knock yourself out...




That is a complete cop out on the rider's part, showing a major lack of spinal fortitude.

I once had a very well paying job where I found I had significant ideological issues. Without anything to support me, I walked away. So, the statement, "They have very little say in the matter." is crap. F1 drivers boycotted the sport (they are like jockeys) because of deaths and only agreed to come back when major safety improvements were agreed to.

People only have their internal codes of ethics and responsibility. If they are willing to sacrifice that for a paycheck then they are no better than those who at least they admit they are only doing something for money.

Your post fails to present any justification to this person.

Reed

Gry2Yng
Nov. 11, 2009, 04:33 PM
These riders predominately do what their OWNERS tell them to do. You know, the horse owners?

Kinda like jockeys, really. They have very little say in the matter.

But, if you'd like to labour under that mistaken assumption, knock yourself out.

Mary King is a helluva rider/horseman.

The organizers of the event are to blame, not the people who participated. They need to eat.

OH, I forgot. This is the wealthy forum. Money isn't the object. You already HAVE it. Some people actually have to ride for it.


When an owner asks you to do something with a horse that you strongly disagree with, you say "no". If they insist, you give up the horse/ride and tell them to find someone else.

Integrity means missing a paycheck, a meal, etc to stand up for what you believe in. Mucking stalls pays the bills just like riding horses.

I am not saying that anyone who rode in the original event sold out. Only responding to the post above which says that riders do what owners tell them to do. If they have integrity, they do what they believe is right.

And if you believe upper level riders have little say in the matter of where/when their horses compete then you are hanging with the wrong riders. IMHO, the FEI and qualifications has more to do with riders' decisions regarding when and where to compete horses than an owner.

mypaintwattie
Nov. 11, 2009, 05:05 PM
I hadn't seen that video. How sad. What a disgrace of an event. I like the breyers in a sandbox idea- I'll bring a few of mine.

jumpsnake
Nov. 11, 2009, 05:47 PM
Please don't jump all over me, as I don't know much about this.
Personally, I see too much speed and turns over solid obstacles. Can someone clue me in to the other problems here? Or is this the main problem?

I feel like I should know more, but I wonder if I am missing part of the picture... if this community thinks it is so awful, why do some think it is ok?

archieflies
Nov. 11, 2009, 06:19 PM
OH, I forgot. This is the wealthy forum. Money isn't the object. You already HAVE it. Some people actually have to ride for it.

Well, if you have to ride for your money, you're doing pretty good. You see, I WORK 60 hours a week for my $30k.

I hate people talking about money to begin with (the 'I'm poor, you're rich' routine just smacks of bitterness), but I really get fuming mad when people assume that because I ride and show horses I am rich. I would think that someone who's actually INVOLVED in horses would know better.

And I don't believe for an instant that owners TELL their riders what they MUST do and give the rider no input. In racing sure, but jockeys have little to do with the day-to-day training of the horse. Completely different ballgame from eventing, where the rider is the trainer. Besides, even in racing, any rider that's not a mute has the ability to say "no."

Perhaps, though, you're from a communist country where people really can't make their own choices? That would explain the bitterness toward us "rich" folks...

RAyers
Nov. 11, 2009, 06:35 PM
Please don't jump all over me, as I don't know much about this.
Personally, I see too much speed and turns over solid obstacles. Can someone clue me in to the other problems here? Or is this the main problem?

I feel like I should know more, but I wonder if I am missing part of the picture... if this community thinks it is so awful, why do some think it is ok?


The intent and idea of XC is to carry speed and power across a fence. At the Advanced level the spreads of fences can be up to 10 feet at the base so the rider and horse can not ride it like a jumper and try for a big bascule.

In the video it looks like MK rode like a typical XC ride which is not appropriate for indoors. Then again, the fences were not necessarily appropriate either.

What I saw was a rider and horse confined by the venue with too many changes in speed in too short of a distance over too long a course.

Reed

archieflies
Nov. 11, 2009, 07:24 PM
Jumpsnake, the other part of the problem is that they're taking horses who are USED TO a certain job... galloping and jumping big and bold on XC, and then adjusting themselves to a shorter, bouncier stride, tighter turns and bascule over the collapsible fences in the arena... and then changing the game without warning the horse. The horse now sees he's in the arena, is thinking in stadium mode... and nobody's told him that these aren't stadium jumps and don't come down if he makes a mistake. Now if you had horses that did this type of event as their sole job, or at least more than once a year, you may develop a horse that can do the event with minimal risk. But when they do things one way every weekend, then once a year you suddenly change everything... you've got a horse that doesn't know his job and can't make smart decisions. And can't we agree that a horse who doesn't know his job is a dangerous thing?

Eventer5
Nov. 11, 2009, 07:52 PM
the owners should also respect their rider's opinions especially if they think somethings a bad idea beacause of safety. these horses get to enough events as it is this isnt something thats completely necessary

jumpsnake
Nov. 11, 2009, 08:17 PM
Reed, archie,

thanks- I guess what I was seeing is not that off base then. One of those apples and oranges things-- just because the jumps are solid does not XC make.

I wonder what the organizers/ etc think? Surely some of them would have eventing experience... why would they think this is a good idea?

fooler
Nov. 11, 2009, 10:53 PM
These riders predominately do what their OWNERS tell them to do. You know, the horse owners?

Kinda like jockeys, really. They have very little say in the matter.

But, if you'd like to labour under that mistaken assumption, knock yourself out.

Mary King is a helluva rider/horseman.

The organizers of the event are to blame, not the people who participated. They need to eat.

OH, I forgot. This is the wealthy forum. Money isn't the object. You already HAVE it. Some people actually have to ride for it.

Drop the Weathly crack - yes some here have money, but most do not. Most folks here work one or more jobs in order to have and when possible compete our horses.
Eventing is the not same as Racing. In racing the jocks are chosen for the race. In Eventing the riders are paired with the horse for a period of time - usually one or more years. Depending on the situation riders have almost complete control to minimum control of scheduling. As others have stated any rider can walk away from the ride. Just like anyone of us can walk away from a job we no longer like or agree with. It isn't easy, just what we have to do to be able to look at ourselves the next morning.
After what happened last year I don't know how any owner or rider would consider this type of competition again.

Paragon
Nov. 11, 2009, 11:16 PM
The organizers of the event are to blame, not the people who participated. They need to eat.

OH, I forgot. This is the wealthy forum. Money isn't the object. You already HAVE it. Some people actually have to ride for it.

Or, you know, some people have other jobs in order to get money.

I realize that this is a horse forum, and therefore, we're enamored of all things horse, but really. Suggesting that the riders just can't help but ride their mounts into grossly unsafe conditions because they need to eat is offensive to the sensibilities.

I had an animal job before. I was disgusted with the way the animals were treated. I quit and found another job. Some people make these choices, and others don't.

While I reserve judgment on the riders who participated in this event the first time - and received a devastating reality check - I won't be so complimentary the next time around. There are other jobs than piloting this course. Many, many other jobs.

nomeolvides
Nov. 12, 2009, 05:28 AM
I won't be so complimentary the next time around. There are other jobs than piloting this course. Many, many other jobs.
My point was that "this course" may not be anything like it was. The whole thing could be completely different. So, as I said, I am reserving judgement until the details are out and we actually know the format...

Unprovoked92
Nov. 12, 2009, 12:24 PM
AMEN Denny!!

Go Biki!! (Love thid video)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwNJi6SUOeE

Forget the Breyer horses! I vote for gerbils....or rabbits. If Rabbit Show Jumping is good enough for GM its good enough for ME!! I'm sure the SJ rabbits will be happy to attempt some XC....