Bolero -- any dirty little secrets?

[Kyzteke]

OK -- the thread on Bugatti Hilltop has really (re)piqued my interest in this stallion for my mare. It seems he reliably offers everything I want improved in my mare: shorter back, bigger engine, prettier head, (slightly) longer legs and a more driving trot. Meanwhile my mare has a great neck, super walk, lots of suspension, good bone, good feet and a SUPER easy disposition, which she throws.

She is by Rubino Bellissimo o/o a Batido daughter. So I would be linebreeding to both Rubinstein I and Bolero, with Rubinstein x2 in the 3rd generation, Bolero x2 in the 4th generation and again in the 5th generation.

The linebreeding to Rubinstein doesn't bother me abit, since I already tried it with this mare when I bred her to Rosenthal -- could not be happier with the results.

But what about Bolero? Athough it's pretty far back, that is three crosses to Bolero and I'm not so sure he was great enough to warrant that.

What sort of weaknesses -- both in terms of constitution and characteristics -- would you say Bolero had?

Also, upon reviewing the pedigree, I would also be linebreeding to Pik Koenig x 2 (but pretty far back) and a mare named Franka (also x2). These would come from two different mares produced by putting PK on Franka....

Here's the pedigree of this hypothetical foal for easier viewing:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=MYDREAMFOAL&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

[Home Again Farm]

IMO the similar lines are so far back as to be no a likely problem.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=mydreamfoal&g=9&g2=5&query_type=linebreeding&search_bar=linebreeding&what=done&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

I really wondered when I bred my Wintermaske to Bugatti. The Rubinstein was doubled up rather closely. Pedigree:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ballerina+mlw

[Kyzteke]

IMO the similar lines are so far back as to be no a likely problem.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=mydreamfoal&g=9&g2=5&query_type=linebreeding&search_bar=linebreeding&what=done&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

I really wondered when I bred my Wintermaske to Bugatti. The Rubinstein was doubled up rather closely. Pedigree:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ballerina+mlw

The Rubinstein I doesn't bother me a bit, as I said. I wasn't able to uncover anything that spooked me about him bad enough not to find linebreeding to him desirable. And this time it would be one more generation farther back.

But Bolero -- not sure he's in the same class as RI and I don't know quite as much about him. Didn't he die of a heart attack when he was only 12 years old?

BTW, how did your Ballerina filly turn out? Photos?

[patch work farm]

The only negative thing I have ever heard about Bolero was that his offspring, when nervous, lost their walk. You said your mare has a good walk so most likely this would not be an issue and frankly, I don't know if this was true of all of them, a few or just one. It did come from a reliable source but I don't think I would NOT breed to Bugatti if everything is what you like/want.

I know several people with Bugatti offspring and they love everything about them!

[Home Again Farm]

I am repeating the breeding this coming year. Ballerina had a terribly tough start (rejected by surrogate Mom, pneumonia and clostridia, followed up just for fun by lactose intolerance as a tiny baby). But she was performance tested as a 3 year old after only 60 days under saddle and received an 8.5 on rideability. She then became an Elite Candidate after her inspection as a 3 year old.

She is a bit small - just 16h - but I attribute that to her start in life. Her mama was a fantastic show horse - bold, no crowd big enough or place too busy for her. Ballerina has been the same under saddle - eager to please, eats up the work, happy, happy girl under saddle. This year she had her first foal — a really big Hotline colt that is one of the nicest Hotlines I have seen.

IMO the Bolero is so far back that I'd not give it much thought. I'd be looking harder at the Bergamon, Donnerhall and Rubinstein. :winkgrin:

[Oakstable]

How big is your Batido daughter?

I have a Batido gelding who is a gorgeous mover, has a wonderful mind and is a TANK.

Not tall, just wide and tons of bone.

[Tiki]

Bolero passes on rideability. With Bolero, Rubinstein and Donnerhall in Bugatti you can't go wrong. Bugatti also has an absolutely INCREDIBLE walk that he passes on. Like a graceful panther, oozing along. It's a big walk but it was the first thing that struck me on the video I have of him as a 3 year old. All my Bugatti's got it.

[Bent Hickory]

Also, upon reviewing the pedigree, I would also be linebreeding to Pik Koenig x 2 (but pretty far back) and a mare named Franka (also x2). These would come from two different mares produced by putting PK on Franka....

Technically, you would not be linebreeding here. Your selection of mare and stallion does not produce this match up. It already exists in the pedigree of Bugatti Hilltop. The breeder of Bugatti (Ingo Pape) did this linebreeding.

The mare Franka is an important mare and you will find her in the pedigrees of several stallions and top mares bred by the Pape family. The two daughters of Franka in the pedigree of Bugatti, namely Pirola and Paola, are full sisters to the famous brothers Pik Bube I and II. In addition to producing top performance horses for both jumping and dressage, this motherline produced other stallions including Donnerschlag and Ragazzo.

[railmom]

My first attempt at line breeding Bolero, and it was pretty far back (5S x 3D) was very successful. I was talking to Dr. Christmann after the AHS inspection and told him I had been apprehensive about doubling up on the Bolero and he told me not to be because "Bolero will bring the brilliance". Here is the pedigree:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/quantum+leap5

Kyzteke, looks like a super cross :)

[Tasker]

As per http://www.horsemagazine.com/ 's Breeding Barn - Great Stallions - Bolero description - "In the calculation of breeding values on the basis of the Hanoverian mare performance test, Bolero daughters give him a dressage ranking of 139 - as against a not unexpected 57 for jumping."

Undoubtedly the mare has a contribution to a foal's jumping ability but this could be a not-so-secret dirty secret...

[Sunnydays]

I've also heard that Bolero can be counted on to deliver spark and brilliance. Some breeders say - for both Ramino and Bolero - that you can't have "too much". I certainly would not worry unless you are looking at doubles closer than 3 generations back from the foal.

[railmom]

Bolero daughters give him a dressage ranking of 139 - as against a not unexpected 57 for jumping."

Undoubtedly the mare has a contribution to a foal's jumping ability but this could be a not-so-secret dirty secret...

That is true, don't expect him to improve the jump, lol!

[Kyzteke]

Technically, you would not be linebreeding here. Your selection of mare and stallion does not produce this match up. It already exists in the pedigree of Bugatti Hilltop. The breeder of Bugatti (Ingo Pape) did this linebreeding.

The mare Franka is an important mare and you will find her in the pedigrees of several stallions and top mares bred by the Pape family. The two daughters of Franka in the pedigree of Bugatti, namely Pirola and Paola, are full sisters to the famous brothers Pik Bube I and II. In addition to producing top performance horses for both jumping and dressage, this motherline produced other stallions including Donnerschlag and Ragazzo.

Bent Hickory -- you are totally correct. I actually missed that first time I looked at the pedigree, but noticed it the second time and thought the breeder most have been doubling up on Franka for a good reason.

Now I know what it is! Thanks so much for the info.

[Kyzteke]

Bolero passes on rideability. With Bolero, Rubinstein and Donnerhall in Bugatti you can't go wrong. Bugatti also has an absolutely INCREDIBLE walk that he passes on. Like a graceful panther, oozing along. It's a big walk but it was the first thing that struck me on the video I have of him as a 3 year old. All my Bugatti's got it.

Lovely news! I think my mare's walk is her best gait. I'm getting more excited!

[Kyzteke]

IMO the Bolero is so far back that I'd not give it much thought. I'd be looking harder at the Bergamon, Donnerhall and Rubinstein. :winkgrin:


Why do you say this? What am I missing?

[Kyzteke]

As per http://www.horsemagazine.com/ 's Breeding Barn - Great Stallions - Bolero description - "In the calculation of breeding values on the basis of the Hanoverian mare performance test, Bolero daughters give him a dressage ranking of 139 - as against a not unexpected 57 for jumping."

Undoubtedly the mare has a contribution to a foal's jumping ability but this could be a not-so-secret dirty secret...

Well, my mare is basically an adequate jumper, but that's all.

However, she is fundamentally dressage-bred anyway, so I'm not trying to produce jumpers.

Someday I might well breed her to a jumper with good gaits (like Pablo), but that's a whole different thread.

[Kyzteke]

How big is your Batido daughter?

Actually the mare I'm talking about is a Batido granddaughter -- o/o a Batido daughter.

The Batido daughter was 17.2hh, very long bodied, head like a Perch. Looked like she should have been pulling a beer wagon. But when she moved :eek:!!

The B. granddaughter by Rubino Bellissamo is shorter (16.1 -- which I wanted) and actually lighter framed, but still long...long back, long neck, long head, long ears....you get the idea. Rubino did his best, but the mare sure doesn't look like a "typical" Rubinstein-line horse.

But she DOES produce it when I get the right stallion. And I never worry about the height. Personally, the market I'm aiming for usually prefers 16.1 horses, and I doubt my mare will ever produce anything shorter. EVERYTHING on her bottom side all the way back is 17hh or more...and I don't think Rubino (who is only 16.1 himself) has anything shorter than that in his pedigree.

[Peg]

Well, the info about Bolero's lack of "jump" explains my mare's lack of that talent in her MPT!:( I have plans to breed her to Linaro thos spring, ut Bugatti may be an interesting choice. She has Bolero on the dam side. Benidetto would be as well, with Cordoba in the mix. Peg

[siegi b.]

Rodawn - I take it you like Rubinstein? :lol:

[Home Again Farm]

Why do you say this? What am I missing?

Nothing. I was jokingly saying, the cross would not worry me at all. Sorry to be unclear.

[Kyzteke]

Nothing. I was jokingly saying, the cross would not worry me at all. Sorry to be unclear.

Whew! I thought to myself -- 'what? is there something wrong with Donnerhall?'

Like Rodawn and many of us here, I absolutely ADORE the "R" line. In terms of temperament, they seem to me to be the closest thing to a guarantee you can get in breeding.

I'm sure there is a nasty or short-tempered R-line horse out there somewhere, but I have yet to meet them or hear of them. My Rosenthal filly has been a cream puff since Day One -- she learns everything so easily and resists almost nothing (shots she doesn't like and neither does her dam). Now, at only 4 1/2 months, she is easier to halter, lead & handle than many older horses and certainly easier than my Weltmeyer granddaughter, who is twice her age. Of course the W-gd is 1/2 Akhal Teke, so that might have something to do with that.

I think the R line are real "tryers" and if they are at all athletic they make perfect adult ammie dressage horses, as I believe the brain and that desire to 'try' for their rider is one of THE most important components for a successful dressage horse.

[Home Again Farm]

No need to convince me on R-line. I have a Rubinstein I daughter, a Rohdiamant daughter, a Rubin Royal daughter and daughters of the Rubinstein and Rohdiamant mares who are absolutely treasured in my mare herd. :yes::winkgrin::D

[Gucci]

How big is your Batido daughter?

I have a Batido gelding who is a gorgeous mover, has a wonderful mind and is a TANK.

Not tall, just wide and tons of bone.

I also have a Batido gelding, he is a gorgeous mover as well, he is tall and very elegant, not wide yet but he will get there he is only 5 :)
also very easy going

[Canterbury Court]

The only double Bolero I ever had ( great-grandfather top and bottom) went to a rodeo string. That Bolero buck came out in spades. The horse was lovely on the ground, one of the best movers I have ever seen, but wouldn't tolerate a girth even for the best cowboy in the area. That being said, I still have a lot of Bolero in my herd. Watch the shortness of the front legs and give them a little extra space ( they don't seem to like being crowded but will be very faithful once they attatch to you) . Bolero does add brilliance!

[Kyzteke]

The only double Bolero I ever had ( great-grandfather top and bottom) went to a rodeo string. That Bolero buck came out in spades.

Well that's interesting!! What happened to the Bolero rideability?

Luckily, the demand for good bucking stock out my way probably exceeds the demand for dressage horses, so I'm good either way :)

And I bet that horse will buck with brilliance :winkgrin:

[Go Fish]

She is a bit small - just 16h - but I attribute that to her start in life. Her mama was a fantastic show horse - bold, no crowd big enough or place too busy for her. Ballerina has been the same under saddle - eager to please, eats up the work, happy, happy girl under saddle. This year she had her first foal — a really big Hotline colt that is one of the nicest Hotlines I have seen.

Long story, but some years back I ended up with a D line mare in foal to Bolero. I really liked the resulting filly a lot, but she was small. Had plenty of step to get down the lines though, even at 15.2. She's had quite a career in the small juniors, locally. Really, really beautiful, too. I wanted the mare so sold this filly quite young. She's been a joy to train, great brain and very quiet. Perfect hunter type, just small.

I wouldn't consider Bolero a hunter sire, but this filly certainly fit the bill and could jump out of her skin.

[vineyridge]

Dirty little secret about Bolero? He's at least 3/4 TB. :)

[Oakstable]

I posted a link to a youtube video of my Bolero grandson in the uncouth forum.

He is a very elastic mover with a powerful hind leg.

Nice temperament. Has really bonded with the cowboy who handles the youngsters and introduces them to tack and a rider.

The mom is a GOV-approved TB mare.

So the gelding is heavily TB but you'd never guess it from the size of this guy.

He looks and moves like an old style Hanoverian but not reluctant in the least to go forward with the rider.

(Man, did he buck when he was introduced to the saddle. Wow.)

[Kyzteke]

Dirty little secret about Bolero? He's at least 3/4 TB. :)

Hmmm...well, that's not a secret, but thanks anyway.

[Oakstable]

My horse is only 5/16 Hanoverian. I think the D line in Batido's pedigree added the heft.