Feed Leases

[Ohiogreen1]

Are horse owners feed leasing these days? We have so many kids looking for feed leases at my sons stable but our trainer is having the hardest time finding suitable opportunities. Is this now a rare find?

[mothermucker12]

ok am i the only one who doesnt undersdtand??? a feed lease??

[sa11yb]

Is it something along the lines that the person who leases pays all of the board, vet and farrier costs for the horse and gets full use?

[*Liz*]

I think maybe she means 'free lease' ?

[meupatdoes]

Are horse owners feed leasing these days? We have so many kids looking for feed leases at my sons stable but our trainer is having the hardest time finding suitable opportunities. Is this now a rare find?

Often the problem is that the person free leasing basically wants a made, ready-to-step-in-the-ring-with-the-tot show horse on which kiddie can "move up to 3'" for free.
Extra points if they claim that paying insurance on this made campaigner is a dealbreaker.


There are plenty of free horses available.
At the track.


If you prefer something more made up and ready to step in the ring for some reason, well, that reason costs money and is much more expensive to insure.

If it has to be free, stop by the race track* and make up your own.


*where, ftr, my horse who is NOW made and ready to step in the ring with a tot came from

[Jsalem]

Oh, no. They don't want a free horse. They want a free lease. Meaning, if it breaks or doesn't work out in any way, they get to give it back!

Seriously though, there are opportunities out there. 1/2 leases, leases while a horse is for sale. What the leasor has to understand is that with a "free" type lease (not a paid, term lease) there is no security. The horse may be gone without notice.

[meupatdoes]

Oh, no. They don't want a free horse. They want a free lease. Meaning, if it breaks or doesn't work out in any way, they get to give it back!

Oh, believe me, I know free leases are a dream come true.
Even better if you can break it and then just hand it back.

Ideally after you have balked at insuring it.


It's the "All of the horse, none of the responsibility" package, and of course only a nice made horse will do.


OP: In case you're wondering, this, from the owner's pov, is why a free lease might be difficult to come by.
If you want a 3' packer, the insurance may well be $2k per year.

If you approach somebody who has a sale horse and say, "Would you be willing to let me pick up the bills on your sale horse if I promise to board it with my trainer, take it to one or two shows a month, and pick up his insurance with the understanding that he is for sale and could leave at any minute," you would have a much better chance than if you say, "My daughter NEEDS a horse to move up to the 3 (God I hate that. How do the children in Bangladesh get by without 50k Children's hunters?), maybe we can do you a favor by paying your horse's expenses but not all of his expenses because the insurance is exhorbitant and we want to keep him in our backyard our trainer comes out once a week."

[bumknees]

If I had to guess the 'OP is talking about something I see advertised in a local freebie paper but normally concerning cows and the like. Basically the owners of animal can not afford to feed the animal so they offer it out with the basic you feed it you can use it.

[findeight]

Bingo. Kind of a livestock term, pasture and feed a small group up for the owner and keep one or two when they are mature and ready for slaughter. Never heard it for horses but the answer is not really. Not for something suitable for a lesson program and local shows.

Problem is most that want the feed/free lease have no intention of paying the full freight on the horse-fact most of them do not really realize that, with shoes and routine vet? Even a cheaper place is going to be at least $500 a month. On top of lessons.

Very, very few owners want their horse to receive substandard care or suddenly get a call-"well, you can have him back now" along with a vet bill 8 weeks of overdue board bill and only 1 shoe remaining.

There are horses being given away that may be suitable with a little work-of course those you do need to assume full responsibility for and that's why they are hard to give away. NOTHING is free.

[mvp]

This thread is timely and interesting as I just had to retire my Made Show Cadillac and I'm jonesing for another ride but can't afford to buy.

Having made and paid for my own, I'm not the type who expects something for nothing. But I would like a free lease on a horse, in part because I think I might be able to improve it some. So my ideal doesn't have to be fancy. I'd love one that was semi-made and which I (with trainer's help and owner's approval) could continue with. I'd also perhaps dig a greenie I could bring up to what I know.

I do want the option of returning the horse should my $$ change. My first obligation is to keep my retired one in hay and shavings. I also would like a limit on the possible vet care I might be responsible for. But I can offer lots of experience in keeping 'em sound and I'm a big fan of written agreements.

Is any of this unreasonable? Don't be mean-- I already said I didn't expect something for nothing, and you can certainly doubt my ability. But, for the sake of the argument, or assuming you have seen me back up the "I made my own nice one" with a riding interview, am I looking for something that's out there?

TIA

[meupatdoes]

This thread is timely and interesting as I just had to retire my Made Show Cadillac and I'm jonesing for another ride but can't afford to buy.

Having made and paid for my own, I'm not the type who expects something for nothing. But I would like a free lease on a horse, in part because I think I might be able to improve it some. So my ideal doesn't have to be fancy. I'd love one that was semi-made and which I (with trainer's help and owner's approval) could continue with. I'd also perhaps dig a greenie I could bring up to what I know.

I do want the option of returning the horse should my $$ change. My first obligation is to keep my retired one in hay and shavings. I also would like a limit on the possible vet care I might be responsible for. But I can offer lots of experience in keeping 'em sound and I'm a big fan of written agreements.

Is any of this unreasonable? Don't be mean-- I already said I didn't expect something for nothing, and you can certainly doubt my ability. But, for the sake of the argument, or assuming you have seen me back up the "I made my own nice one" with a riding interview, am I looking for something that's out there?

TIA


1. If you want a limit on vet care, insure it. Then you only owe the deductible.

2. You are talking about taking a green horse and adding training and show miles to it at your expense.

Most free lease candidates want something to cart their kid around the shows and take her to the next division level while laughing at all of her jokes, and they want it only until kiddie is off to school.


As an owner, I would be much more willing to free lease to you than to the other group.

[heartinrye]

It's interesting that everyone says free leases= no obligation when pony gets hurt. I free leased my horse, and in the contract said that if pony got hurt, they were stuck with it & vet bills. (Unless of course I wanted it back...)

[meupatdoes]

It's interesting that everyone says free leases= no obligation when pony gets hurt. I free leased my horse, and in the contract said that if pony got hurt, they were stuck with it & vet bills. (Unless of course I wanted it back...)

This works if your horse isn't worth a huge amount.
If I am free leasing my $50k horse, and they break it I can say, "OK, now you're stuck with it!" but I am still out a $50k horse.

So now we get to the part of them paying its bills while it is out for six months getting better.
This works awesome if you have a substantial security deposit from them.
You have the money first, and for the duration of the lease.
They get it back if the pony comes back.


Without the security deposit, they can still just shrug their shoulders, turn their pockets inside out with a woeful glance and say, "Sooorrrrry."
Yeah, you have it in writing? Take us to court. Garnish our wages. Go to war over it.

It is easy for somebody to DECLARE their willingness to take care of the horse in the event of a mishap.
Asking them to DEMONSTRATE their willingness to do so with an insurance bill and a security deposit usually reveals just how deep that willingness runs.

[JinxyFish313]

This thread is timely and interesting as I just had to retire my Made Show Cadillac and I'm jonesing for another ride but can't afford to buy.

Your situation isn't unreasonable but I'm not sure how available it is right now. You may be able to find someone with a nice prospect who can't afford to pay for training and would be more than happy to free lease it to a capable rider/trainer for polish and miles, BUT I'm not so sure about the vet bills thing. If I were the owner and something happened to the horse under your care, I'd expect you to pay for it regardless of the cost. Again, insurance. If it were something congenital or unavoidable/unrelated to him being in your possession then I would be inclined to cover the vet. I think it would be appropriate for the owner to pay for worming, shots, farrier or at the very least go halfsies.

That said, I personally would never lease to ANYONE outside of a well known, reputable h/j show barn that I could visit whenever and used a vet I felt I could trust. I also do short term leases (6 months) in case I don't like the way a situation develops.

[mvp]

The problem with injuries and even maintenance is that most non-owners have no idea what this can cost. They understandably don't want to be obligated to sink $$ into every last bone scan, injection and car-payment shoeing job the owner and vet prescribes.

Others of us who *do* know what it's possible to spend in terms of rehab or even "veterinary duct tape" applied to old campaigners on the circuit really want to establish a limit.

In my case, part of the reason that I retired mine was that I wasn't willing to pour an extra $6,000 a year into keeping him maybe sound enough to show while knowing that he was somewhat NQR. If he were on someone else's financial and ethical balance sheet, this would have been done. My vets offered me lots of different kinds of "tape" for his problem.

As a leasee, then, I agree that every owner gets to make his or her own decision about what counts as reasonable maintenance and what is beyond that. It's just necessary for everyone in any lease situation that both sides agree in specific terms about who pays for what, and how the horse's soundness and health will be maintained, day to day. The day-to-day management can be hard to spell out in riding, but it's a huge element of preventing expensive vet bills.

[heartinrye]

This works if your horse isn't worth a huge amount.
If I am free leasing my $50k horse, and they break it I can say, "OK, now you're stuck with it!" but I am still out a $50k horse.

So now we get to the part of them paying its bills while it is out for six months getting better.
This works awesome if you have a substantial security deposit from them.
You have the money first, and for the duration of the lease.
They get it back if the pony comes back.


Without the security deposit, they can still just shrug their shoulders, turn their pockets inside out with a woeful glance and say, "Sooorrrrry."
Yeah, you have it in writing? Take us to court. Garnish our wages. Go to war over it.

It is easy for somebody to DECLARE their willingness to take care of the horse in the event of a mishap.
Asking them to DEMONSTRATE their willingness to do so with an insurance bill and a security deposit usually reveals just how deep that willingness runs.

Ya, I think my situation was different, my mid-high 5 figure horse was going to be leased out to a top top show barn, (offered us a nice chunk of change too) *but* I wouldn't have been able to see him for 12 months, so I opted to free-lease him in-barn, so when I was home in the summer I could see him.


But I definitely see now why normally people wouldn't free-lease out their expensive horses. Thanks!

[findeight]

Are horse owners feed leasing these days? We have so many kids looking for feed leases at my sons stable but our trainer is having the hardest time finding suitable opportunities. Is this now a rare find?


mvp has a better shot at finding something like this as an experienced adult. Few owners want to give some kids at a lesson barn a free horse to use. Trainer here needs to buy some school horses and offer them, not look for freebies with no strings attached they and the kids are not responsible for other then feed.

[mvp]

And nothing reeks more than the Pony Mom or Big Eq shopper who talks about a horse as if he were a car that came with a warrantee. To those guys-- who want horses to fit rider's short-term goals-- the question is reasonable. You owners, of course, can charge for this privilege.

But the made-horse-as-car thing has always stopped me from considering leasing mine out. I could be wrong (and speaking against my own cause!) I assumed that people looking for a horse to teach a rider something also didn't have the knowledge required to keep the schoolmaster sound. It is entirely reasonable to think that the rider herself won't do the horse any favors in terms of providing a therapeutic kind of work program. At the very least, maintaining a horse's soundness beyond the length of the lease is not really a concern of the leasee.

I know all this changes for top horses in top training barns where the knowledge base is much deeper.

[HARROLDhasmyheart]

I am fortunate enough to be on the recieving end of a free lease right now. My trainer in LA is good friends with both the girls family and the trainer where the horse lives up north, and worked out an agreement that if I cover all expenses (board, training, grooms, feed, etc...) then I can essentially 'have' the mare for a few months. It also worked out so that I will be able to take her to a show. It is a short term lease (3 months), and I have to send the mare back when I am 'done' leasing her/go home for the winter from school.

I am aware that this is a very extraordinary situation, and I fully know how lucky and blessed I am to have stumbled into such an amazing opportunity. I love the mare as if she is my own, and owe everything to the family and trainers who made this opportunity possible for me :)

[EAY]

I am currently free leasing my gelding to a girl at my barn. She is an experienced rider who made up her own large pony and she was ready to move up to a horse, and as the family was having problems selling the pony they were not really in the financial position to buy her a horse. At the time that she started with him, my horse was a made up 3' hunter with the potential to do the 3'6, and though he probably wouldn't be champion in top company at an AA show he is very competitive at the smaller rated shows.

He is not necessarily an easy ride though and requires a strong, confident rider and I was hoping that she could put some more show miles on him since I am currently limited in the amount of showing that I'm able to do. This and the fact that he would be staying at the same barn where I board my other horse convinced me that a free lease situation would work for us.

Our lease agreement does spell out very specifically who is responsible for what expenses. The lessee pays for all board, farrier, and basic vet expenses up to a certain limit and I as the owner take over any major expenses.

The experience has been mixed however. The lessee decided to put my horse on joint supplements, which I agreed was a good idea, but at the same time she has not really been as committed to his training and development as I would have liked and he spends most of his time sitting in his field. At least I know he's not being overused and as this is her last junior year I'm hoping that she'll put more time into him soon to prepare for next season.

To MVP I would love to have an adult like you to lease my horse.

[rosebecard]

To MVP,
I've free-leased several sale horses, and I think it can work out well for both parties. The horses were 3'6" jumpers that I never would have been able to afford. I paid full board and training, farrier, basic vet bills, and all showing expenses, including classes for the trainer to ride in and show the horse for sale. I was not responsible for major vet bills or insurance, as the owner would normally be responsible for this risk and these expenses at a sale barn. It does end up being a short-term lease if the horse sells quickly, but I was able to ride and show nice horses and the owners were able to get their horses seen at shows.

[jacksorbetter]

this is a timely thread for me. Let me ask your opinion about the following situation. Say i own a very cute talented coming 5 year old OTTB. Well started under saddle, W,T,C and starting to jump 2'6 courses. Well mannered and safe... but certainly green. Now let's say i have a friend that is a very good rider, but an amateur...not a professional. If this friend rides this horse 6 days a week and enjoys the horse immensely... should she be paying his expenses (board, farrier etc...) or, because the horse is green and young...is this a situation where i should just be happy that someone is riding him and paying to take 2 lessons a week on him? I do not have time to ride him at the moment...and in truth only bought him to be a pasture mate for my other horse.

[mrsbradbury]

this is a timely thread for me. Let me ask your opinion about the following situation. Say i own a very cute talented coming 5 year old OTTB. Well started under saddle, W,T,C and starting to jump 2'6 courses. Well mannered and safe... but certainly green. Now let's say i have a friend that is a very good rider, but an amateur...not a professional. If this friend rides this horse 6 days a week and enjoys the horse immensely... should she be paying his expenses (board, farrier etc...) or, because the horse is green and young...is this a situation where i should just be happy that someone is riding him and paying to take 2 lessons a week on him? I do not have time to ride him at the moment...and in truth only bought him to be a pasture mate for my other horse.

It depends... Is this horse at your house, and you enjoy having your friend share him? Then no. If you pay for it, maybe she should "share-board", or 1/2 lease with you.

I read the jist for he thread, as somebody asking for something that isn't typically done in our industry. The arrangements can be endless, and each party will determine the terms that work for them.

[jacksorbetter]

It depends... Is this horse at your house, and you enjoy having your friend share him? Then no. If you pay for it, maybe she should "share-board", or 1/2 lease with you.

I read the jist for he thread, as somebody asking for something that isn't typically done in our industry. The arrangements can be endless, and each party will determine the terms that work for them.

It started out at my house, but recently i moved my horses to a boarding facility because my job changed and i don't have enough time to care for them. My horse is on full training board and i ride him 3 days a week. My other horse that my friend is riding 6 days a week is on regular board which i currently pay 100% of. I am also paying all of his farrier bills. Also this friend happens to be my equine vet, and she isn't cutting me a break on the vet bills. I am truly just trying to find out if this is normal since he is a greenie...or if i am letting myself be walked all over...

[meupatdoes]

It started out at my house, but recently i moved my horses to a boarding facility because my job changed and i don't have enough time to care for them. My horse is on full training board and i ride him 3 days a week. My other horse that my friend is riding 6 days a week is on regular board which i currently pay 100% of. I am also paying all of his farrier bills. Also this friend happens to be my equine vet, and she isn't cutting me a break on the vet bills. I am truly just trying to find out if this is normal since he is a greenie...or if i am letting myself be walked all over...

I am doing all of the riding and also 100% of the bill paying on two of the horses that I own with friends. The one horse I have brought along from his first ride ever.

They are sale horses though and when they sell I get a proportional cut back.

The co-owner of the one does own a truck and trailer and she covers some of the trailering.



For the record, I hope your equine vet is not riding on an ammy card.
You pay her (to be a vet for any of your horses), and she also rides for you.
No more ammy eligibility for her.

[mvp]

jacksorbetter-- I'd tread carefully here and before changing the arrangement, I'd ask myself to list in detail the different benefits you get from the current deal.

Chances are that your vet/leasor is both happy with the way things are and thinks she is contributing something of value to the deal. I think a skilled rider who pays for pro help on top of that, probably knows how to "ride for soundness" and is consistent, plus keeps the horse in the program of your choosing is a no small asset.

Writing check after check can make anyone feel that they are on the losing end of a bargain. Are you "being walked on?" Before you put it in such "me versus them" terms, remember that this deal was OKed by you before you came upon this thread. No one was ripping you off then, so consider the possibility that nothing has changed now.

In your shoes, I might ask my vet to do work on this horse for the cost of materials only. That take no cash out of her pocket, puts some in yours and grants your horse access to perhaps a higher standard of care than he might otherwise get. As the vet, I don't think I'd have a problem with that. After all, this is what I'd do for a horse I owned and in whose soundness and helth I had a vested interest.

[meupatdoes]

jacksorbetter-- I'd tread carefully here and before changing the arrangement, I'd ask myself to list in detail the different benefits you get from the current deal.

Chances are that your vet/leasor is both happy with the way things are and thinks she is contributing something of value to the deal. I think a skilled rider who pays for pro help on top of that, probably knows how to "ride for soundness" and is consistent, plus keeps the horse in the program of your choosing is a no small asset.

Writing check after check can make anyone feel that they are on the losing end of a bargain. Are you "being walked on?" Before you put it in such "me versus them" terms, remember that this deal was OKed by you before you came upon this thread. No one was ripping you off then, so consider the possibility that nothing has changed now.

In your shoes, I might ask my vet to do work on this horse for the cost of materials only. That take no cash out of her pocket, puts some in yours and grants your horse access to perhaps a higher standard of care than he might otherwise get. As the vet, I don't think I'd have a problem with that. After all, this is what I'd do for a horse I owned and in whose soundness and helth I had a vested interest.

If the vet wants to ride this horse and legitimately maintain her ammy status (which I am simply assuming she doesn't ride on a pro card, but maybe she does. or maybe she doesn't show at all so it doesn't matter), she should take no money from the owner AT ALL for ANY horse.

Regardless of the dynamic between owner and rider (and unless she is REALLY good and capable of putting a near professional quality ride on a horse I would not let someone have my horse 6 days a week while I paid every bill on it), if she plans on taking any money from this owner for veterinay services, riding this horse, and riding in a USEF show on an ammy card, this situation is a flat out, black letter NO GO.

[mvp]

To be clear, the trading-in-kind deal I mentioned with the vet would certainly screw up the vet's ammy status.

But I'd also underscore the value of a good ammy as unofficial trainer with help and supervision from a pro the owner likes. As we all know, training is so unregulated in this country, so that "the pro" is not always the better one for the job. In addition, it might really help a greenie to be The One for an ammy rather than just One Of Many on the day's "to do" list. Sensitive horses especially can benefit from a rider who can bring more time and flexibility to the table.

I can't tell you how often I meet horses whose mind or hind end would be best served by a long trail ride on hills outside, but who stay in the ring because that's what fits into the trainer's schedule. Good trainers in these situations will try to find a competent jockey to take the horse out. Others sadly confess that they know some outside work would be better but that they just can't get it done.

As the owner, any of us should try to optimize the horse's experience. If I read right, jacksorbetter has no plans to sell the horse and didn't even buy this one in order to make a riding horse out of it. But "more trained" certainly has value, perhaps some day even to her. And should circumstances change such that this horse does have to be sold, she will have a better chance of landing in a good situation if she is broke and useful. Getting a horse nicely trained for the least amount of money is generally a great plan.