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babalina
Nov. 1, 2009, 06:03 PM
The DNR has reintroduced wolves and rattlesnakes in the area that have decimated the deer population. I live in Central Wisconsin. A Wolf has eaten up a neighbor farmer's calf and ate all the barn cats. A forester was chainsawing wood and a wolf came 10 ft to him. A pack of Wolves were seen crossing the bridge at the end of the driveway and I saw a huge timberwolf also, that is bigger than my Newfoundland dog.

Needless to say, now I am scared to go out trail riding by myself for this and other safety reasons. My husband is going to get me a pistol for Christmas, that I can carry with me on trail rides...but I was wondering if anyone heard of wolves attacking a horse or group of horses....

I have been trail riding with a friend where we see wolf tracks and bear tracks, but honestly, the 4 wheelers are more dangerous.

carp
Nov. 1, 2009, 06:34 PM
Derailing the topic...I'm curious, since you've obviously put some thought into this. All my marksmanship training was done years ago with a .22 rifle, lying or kneeling. What kind of training do people need to deal with a pistol on horseback, and how do you get it? It would really suck to accidentally shoot your horse instead of the threat. It would also really suck to have the horse freak and dump you when you start shooting.

katarine
Nov. 1, 2009, 07:22 PM
nope, never- and ride a bunch out west NW of Yellowstone with wolf tracks for days. I don't worry about them.

CosMonster
Nov. 1, 2009, 07:33 PM
I usually carry a gun when I'm riding in the back country just in case, but I wouldn't worry too much about wolves, just like I don't worry too much about lions or bears. Yeah, they all might attack you (heck, a Canadian folk singer was just killed by a pack of coyotes, of all things), but like you said irresponsible humans are more trouble. I've never heard of wolves attacking horses or riders.

Also keep in mind that reports of wolves tend to be highly exaggerated. I'm sure some of them are true, but a lot of them are actually coyotes or feral dogs which have been around forever. People are very afraid of wolves and in areas where they are reintroduced people tend to let fear get in the way of their common sense, at least IME.

Guilherme
Nov. 1, 2009, 07:46 PM
Derailing the topic...I'm curious, since you've obviously put some thought into this. All my marksmanship training was done years ago with a .22 rifle, lying or kneeling. What kind of training do people need to deal with a pistol on horseback, and how do you get it? It would really suck to accidentally shoot your horse instead of the threat. It would also really suck to have the horse freak and dump you when you start shooting.

See http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm

We do some Cowboy Mounted Shooting, also.

Frankly, hitting a target the size of a large dog from a moving horse will not be an easy task. But at the first shot the do will likely "booger."

Be sure to gun break the horse before trying any mounted firing.

G.

Painted Horse
Nov. 1, 2009, 09:49 PM
I've seen wolves while riding near Yellowstone. They run off pretty quick and want nothing to do with people. And they have not been hunted in that area yet. Once they have been shot at a few times, they will be even more elusive.

By carrying a pistol and firing it, Usually the noise will be more than enough to scare off the average predator. If and when you really felt threatened by a predator that didn't scare. You could shoot. Most pistols won't kill the larger bears, like a grizzly, fast enough to do you much good. Even a shot thru the lungs, the bear could cover 30-40 yards and maul you before it died. Wolves are not near as tough. A well placed bullet will kill. The key word is WELL PLACED. Which is almost impossible to do from the back of a horse. Cowboy Action Shooters are firing at Balloon ( which you can assume is about the size of the kill zone of a wolf) The balloon is usually holding fairly still. Shots are fired from a moving horse at a target 6-10 feet away. You will proably be firing at a wolf, probably both it and your horse will be moving, at distances much greater than 10 feet.

Bottom line is. any pistol you choose to carry on your person, Will be more of a noise maker than something that inflicts fatal wounds. Unless you are a skill marksman. Buy a pistol that is light enough that you will carry it. Something you are comfortable shooting, Not too powerful that you are afraid to shoot it. I have a 41Mag made out of Titanium. It weighs 22 OZ. So ver lite weight to haul around. But the noise is SOOOOO Loud, it hurts my ears to fire it. I carry it with me, And I'd fire it if threatened. But I rarely practice with it unless I have lots of Hearing protection.

A Wyoming Wolf. This is about as close as we got and this would be an incredible pistol shot.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/2009/Grandview/GrandView-051.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/2009/Grandview/Wolf.jpg

Guilherme
Nov. 1, 2009, 10:11 PM
In a windy arena the balloons in a CMSA match move around quite a bit! :lol:

I was watching R. Lee Ermy's new offering, "Lock and Load," on the History Channel a couple of weeks back and he took a stab at hitting a large jug filled with some colored fluid from the back of a cantering horse with a single action revolver. Lee is a good rider and a VERY good shot with a hand gun and he didn't come close in three tries.

If I were concerned and didn't want to inflict serious damage on an animal I'd use a .45LC blank. At close range this will cause minor injury to a dog. If you want to do a bit more harm then get some rat shot or snake shot rounds. This puts a miniature shotgun in your hands. But it's quite easy to nick your horse if you're not real careful. Using a standard round will likely kill, or very seriously wound, a large canine but is the most difficult one to use accurately.

CMS is a real hoot and goes a long way towards making a horse "booger resistant."* But taking the time to properly train the horse is vital.

Frankly, most folks who live in wolf country tell me that it's not the wolves they fear, it's the feral dogs. We've got the latter around here and they are a concern in more than one area.

G.

*I hate the term "bombproof" as it implies way too much. Any horse can have a "Monday." Well trained horses have very few, but the number is never zero.

Mersy
Nov. 1, 2009, 10:25 PM
If the wolves are becoming less fearful of humans I would be concerned. Although I have never heard of anyone being attacked on horseback, here in Alaska we have had attacks on humans and dogs on the trails. These are trails near major cities. Some of the wolves have been found to be rabid.
Wolves are very smart and cunning. They are "silent" stalkers and plan well when they hunt, don't underestimate them.
If you do plan to carry a firearm for protection make sure you have trained yourself well in the handling of it. If you intend to shoot from horseback you need to practice this with your horse before exposing yourself and your horse to a excited situation.

Kyzteke
Nov. 2, 2009, 10:33 AM
Ah, the wolf hysteria...it near dies does it?:no:

Again -- there has NEVER been a documented case of a healthy, non-rabid wolf attacking a person in the lower 48. NEVER. EVER. EVER.

Here in Idaho, since the reintroduction of the species, people see wolves behind every tree & bush. Yet according to various expert sources there are only between 1800 - 3000 wolves TOTAL between the states of Idaho, Wyoming, Montana and Washington. That's how many square miles? Actually, because the alternative is cleaning the kitchen, I decided to do alittle research on this.

The total square miles for the 4 states listed above is 319,741. So that works out to be a wolf every 110-180 square miles. Yet ask around -- EVERYBODY'S cat, horse, dog, brother & cousin is being eaten by wolves.

Exactly how many wolves are in Wisconsin anyway? Did you or your neighbor SEE these wolves eat the farmer's calf or kill the cats? Couldn't be the neighbor's dog or (most likely) coyotes, could it? Since wolves were pretty close to decimated, coyotes have taken over their spot in the food chain and I think they are now present in just about every state in the lower 48.

Per my research, Wisconsin has about 680 wolves spread over 65503 square miles -- that's one wolf every 96 sq miles. They aren't exactly standing on every street corner.

Kyzteke
Nov. 2, 2009, 12:32 PM
(heck, a Canadian folk singer was just killed by a pack of coyotes, of all things),

Oh -- it wasn't Gordon Lightfoot was it? :eek:

I loved that guy.....:yes:

Cashela
Nov. 2, 2009, 12:39 PM
I wouldn't be afraid. I wish they would reintroduce the wolves to Maine, although I live in NH. We rode in very close to Yellowstone twice and didn't see a bear or a wolf on those rides. We only saw the wolves one day and they didn't want to have anything to do with people at all. And I have been there twice once for a week and we were looking hard for animals and then once again for a couple of days.

CosMonster
Nov. 2, 2009, 12:48 PM
Kyzteke, no, it was Taylor Mitchell. She was only like 19 years old I believe, just starting her career.

Kyzteke
Nov. 2, 2009, 09:23 PM
Kyzteke, no, it was Taylor Mitchell. She was only like 19 years old I believe, just starting her career.

What happened, exactly?

You know, I've read alot about coyotes and their "evolution" lately....apparently the usual coyote unit was just the parents and that year's cubs. But in the last few decades coyotes in some areas have started to "pack up," like wolves.

Because of that, they've also started to change the prey they go after...from stuff like mice & rabbits to larger prey. Nature cannot be denied....

cloudy18
Nov. 2, 2009, 10:17 PM
I live in NW WI and this is the least of my worries. Yes, I would crap my pants, but I ran into two bears this summer and that made me crap more. Most people in WI are so anti-wolf and I have a hard time believing they are coming within 10 feet of people. Also, I have a hard time believing they are decimating the deer population, since I see lots of deer still dead along the roads or standing alive and well in ditches and fields. CWD is a bigger threat to the deer herds than wolves. It's called an ecosystem-not trying to be sarcastic, but people here forget that deer survived very well for a long time with wolves before people decided to wipe out their prey and manage nature themselves.

If you are lucky enough to see one I think your best bet would be to be noisy. As others have said, if you carry a gun to make noise with, and your horrse is used to that, great. Or maybe get some heavy duty bear spray for your peace of mind, but again I would not use that from the back of a horse. You run a huge risk of spraying your horse. As Kyzteke said, there's no documented case of a healthy wolf attacking a human. But I do beleive people have been attacked by deer in rut.;) Also, don't believe all the tales you hear. Some may be true, many are not. You have more to fear from an antisocial dog.

Kyzteke
Nov. 2, 2009, 10:48 PM
I live in NW WI and this is the least of my worries. Also, I have a hard time believing they are decimating the deer population, since I see lots of deer still dead along the roads or standing alive and well in ditches and fields.

As Kyzteke said, there's no documented case of a healthy wolf attacking a human. But I do beleive people have been attacked by deer in rut.;) Also, don't believe all the tales you hear. Some may be true, many are not. You have more to fear from an antisocial dog.

Actually, I was going to tell the OP she had far more to fear from a moose attack than a wolf attack, since there are plenty of documented cases of moose attacking AND hurting people.

But then I did my research (still trying to put off cleaning the kitchen), and found that, as of 2006, Wisconsin only had 40 moose!! Who knew? Around here the place is lousy with moose...in fact one crossed my pasture just last week...those guys have a better trot than my dresssage-bred WB (better suspension for sure) and MAN -- can they JUMP!!

As for wolves decimating the deer population -- PLUEEZZE! We get that same load of bull$h*t from the hunters around here. All I can say, is whoever is counting the deer needs to count the number of near misses from suicide deer who are trying to "decimate" my Geo Metro every night as I drive home.

Where the hell is a wolf when you need one?

People are just hysterical over the "wolf myth," and I find it really interesting that it still lingers.

Meanwhile some bonehead 1/2 mile from me had been feeding the coyotes in her back yard "because the babies are SO cute!" Like eating my barn cats aren't enough chow for them...:dead::mad:

Piatt Farms
Nov. 3, 2009, 12:12 AM
Kytzke, apparently you have the same suicidal deer up there that we have here in OK. I just assumed ours were depressed from having been born in a state famous for red neck living. And kudo's to you and your assessment of wolves. You took all of my lines.
Babalina, a gun is good but as others have said, unless your horse is "gun proof" you may end up getting dumped which could be dangerous with a loaded weapon. We have a rather healthy population of coyotes and bobcats around here...neither of which seem to be very fearful of humans given the number of times I see them watching me from across the field or edge of the woods near my house, so when I go out with the kids for a walk or a trail ride I bring the dogs. They may not give a dang about me, but a couple of 100lbs+ dogs making a half hearted dash at them, makes them scatter faster than just about anything else I've ever seen. I am partial to my Anatolian Shepherds but I'm sure just about any large breed would do.

Guilherme
Nov. 3, 2009, 12:16 AM
Predators were eliminated by our ancestors not because they attacked people but rather because they preyed upon livestock upon which the people relied. Foxes, weasels, wolves, etc. all can decimate a farm and, back when the family farm actually supported a family, meant famine for that family.

So my heartburn is not that people are going to be eaten but that these predators will seek the easiest prey they can get. If that's deer then that's fine; it it's calves, kids, and lambs then that's not so fine.

G.

CosMonster
Nov. 3, 2009, 02:51 PM
Yeah, statistically speaking you do need to worry a lot more about deer than any predator...not even counting traffic accidents, they are responsible for more hospitalizations every year than bears, coyotes, and cougars combined (not sure about wolves, though ;)). I've known 4 people who had to be hospitalized due to deer attacks; one of them nearly died when a buck gored him pretty badly. Kind of puts things in perspective, doesn't it? :D

Kyzteke, here's a link to a news article. Sounds like a really freak thing.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2009/10/29/2009-10-29_coyotes_kill_musician_taylor_mitchell_while_hik ing_in_cape_breton_highlands_nati.html

cloudyandcallie
Nov. 3, 2009, 02:58 PM
Derailing the topic...I'm curious, since you've obviously put some thought into this. All my marksmanship training was done years ago with a .22 rifle, lying or kneeling. What kind of training do people need to deal with a pistol on horseback, and how do you get it? It would really suck to accidentally shoot your horse instead of the threat. It would also really suck to have the horse freak and dump you when you start shooting.

I would assume that OP would only shoot if she was on foot. My horses were stabled around the gun club for 3.5 yrs, and had one BO whose husband often shot his 45 right near the barn. And of course for the past 4 yrs in the country we've had the hunters blasting away in the woods by the pastures. Still I wouldn't have shot off of my horses, altho I would think I could dismount and blast away without having one bolt.

For good insights into wolves and their social lives, read David Mech's book, "Of Wolves and Men," he studied the wolves on Isle Royale in Michigan, and ready Farley Mowat's wonderful book about Alaskan wolves, "Never Cry Wolf." As with any wild animal, be cautious, but don't "cry wolf" unless you do have some reason to do so. I've always carried a gun, in the cities and in the countryside, as the human predator is far more dangerous that animals, including wolves.

Kyzteke
Nov. 3, 2009, 03:13 PM
Predators were eliminated by our ancestors not because they attacked people but rather because they preyed upon livestock upon which the people relied. G.

Actually, I think that is only partially true in the case of wolves. Out here in the west, in mountainous country, the wolves were exterminated relentlessly in large part simply "because".

People have a very weird reaction to wolves and always have...it seems they are much more "anti" wolf than bear or cougar, for instance. Of the three the wolf is the least likely to hurt you and, since they hunt in packs, actually the least likely to come after your chickens, cats, etc. Calves -- probably -- but wolves are far easier to scare off than cats & bears.

But, as we've already determined, you have a FAR better chance of your actual person being hurt by a deer or moose than a wolf...

mlranchtx
Nov. 3, 2009, 03:31 PM
-------------Slight derailment--------------

Kyzteke,

What about grizzly bears in your area? We hunted in Boundary County last fall and were told there were 60+ grizzlys between Bonner's Ferry and the Canadian border. They said not to leave the horses tied up in the woods unattended. Grizzlys had been attacking tied horses :eek:

I didn't really believe them but didn't want to find out. Have you heard of that up there?

-------------------derailment over------------

Carry on :D

cheval convert
Nov. 3, 2009, 04:38 PM
Kytzke, apparently you have the same suicidal deer up there that we have here in OK. I just assumed ours were depressed from having been born in a state famous for red neck living. And kudo's to you and your assessment of wolves. You took all of my lines.
Babalina, a gun is good but as others have said, unless your horse is "gun proof" you may end up getting dumped which could be dangerous with a loaded weapon. We have a rather healthy population of coyotes and bobcats around here...neither of which seem to be very fearful of humans given the number of times I see them watching me from across the field or edge of the woods near my house, so when I go out with the kids for a walk or a trail ride I bring the dogs. They may not give a dang about me, but a couple of 100lbs+ dogs making a half hearted dash at them, makes them scatter faster than just about anything else I've ever seen. I am partial to my Anatolian Shepherds but I'm sure just about any large breed would do.

Nah, your deer are depressed because they live in a "dry" state!

Kyzteke
Nov. 3, 2009, 05:35 PM
Nah, your deer are depressed because they live in a "dry" state!

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Piatt Farms
Nov. 3, 2009, 06:04 PM
Nah, your deer are depressed because they live in a "dry" state!
Correction, that's why I'm depressed... :-)

Kyzteke
Nov. 3, 2009, 06:30 PM
-------------Slight derailment--------------

Kyzteke,

What about grizzly bears in your area? We hunted in Boundary County last fall and were told there were 60+ grizzlys between Bonner's Ferry and the Canadian border. They said not to leave the horses tied up in the woods unattended. Grizzlys had been attacking tied horses :eek:

I didn't really believe them but didn't want to find out. Have you heard of that up there?

-------------------derailment over------------

Carry on :D

Well, Bonner's Ferry is only about 25 miles from the Canadian border and Idaho is only about 50 miles wide up in the panhandle, so that's (quickly grabs calculator) 1,250 sq mile divided by 60 grizzlys = 20 Grizzlies per SQ MILE!:eek:

Wow, no wonder picking huckleberries up there is so dangerous!

Given the math (which I strongly suspect I did not calculate correctly...), I really doubt that is right. But we DO have grizz up here. But not to worry -- they keep the moose down ;)

Actually, they DON'T -- last month I was at work in the middle of Sandpoint...we opened the blinds and there, 4 ft away was a mama moose & her yearling moose-let placidly munching on our shrubbery. Like something out of "Northern Exposure."

So, as you can see, Nature is a precise and well-balance thing ...see the bears are SUPPOSED to be killing off the wolves, except they can't catch them, because the wolves are running after the cougars and they are both just too fast for those fat-a$$ grizzs.

But not to worry...there are still plenty of rednecks to go around...

And the OP thought she had it bad...

Kyzteke
Nov. 3, 2009, 09:23 PM
OK -- two new pieces of information relevant to this thread:

1. Yes, my math is horrid. And they actually let me handle drugs :p It's ONE grizzly per 20 sq miles, which is still more than sounds probable.

2. Apparently Idaho has a wolf "glut" or we are just being generous. According to an article in a local Idaho paper, Idaho Fish & Game has been contacting other states (14 so far) offering them "Free Wolves!!" if they will just promise to "manage" them. Officers from my fair state will trap & ship them free of charge!! Not sure if it's Two for One, a Limited Time Only Offer or what, but it sounds like a hell of a deal to me.

So if you want to take advantage of this swell opportunity, let me know. I'll put you on the list.

Maybe we could send afew more to Wisconsin? They only have 680. :(

Painted Horse
Nov. 3, 2009, 11:10 PM
Why would they need to trap and ship. The wolves are just running across the borders on their own.

Kyzteke
Nov. 4, 2009, 12:08 PM
Why would they need to trap and ship. The wolves are just running across the borders on their own.

Well, if a state such as Maine or Connecticut wanted some, it would be a heck of along way to herd a wolf....so it seems trapping & shipping would be a more practical method of transfer.

At least, that's my guess.

cloudy18
Nov. 4, 2009, 02:56 PM
I haven't been lucky enough to see any of these wolves that stalk everyone else. I must not be in the right place at the right time. I thought once, leaving the ski hill, that there was a wolf by the side of the road eating a bird, but when we turned around it was gone. It could have been a Malamute. So no confirmed sighting here, although now I suppose a pack will rip me limb from limb next time I ride.

Anyway, you guys are funny! And my math isn't dependable either.

cloudyandcallie
Nov. 4, 2009, 03:02 PM
Remember that coyote they found in Central Park last year? They could turn loose a pack of wolves there and see if it cuts down on the muggings. That would be a good way to study if wolves did attack people in a "controlled environment." (a la the book and movie "Wolfen.")

sirensong4
Nov. 11, 2009, 05:28 PM
OP--
I wouldn't worry about wolves when riding UNLESS you ride with a dog. Wolves are very very territorial and don't appreciate other "wolves" in their area. They will probably leave you/your horse alone (although anything is possible), but they will make a play for a dog.

Kyzteke
Nov. 11, 2009, 05:58 PM
OP--
I wouldn't worry about wolves when riding UNLESS you ride with a dog. Wolves are very very territorial and don't appreciate other "wolves" in their area. They will probably leave you/your horse alone (although anything is possible), but they will make a play for a dog.

Actually most of them will run from dogs unless it's lunch size. Remember, they used to hunt wolves with dogs.

Believe me, a wolf knows the different between a dog and another wolf.

sirensong4
Nov. 11, 2009, 07:13 PM
I would love to hear an explanation of how, exactly, wolves are supposed to differentiate between different types of canine.
And if you would like to see the pictures of the pack of (not-small) hunting dogs that were killed by wolves in Grangeville in 2007, I will gladly share them. They were all over the newspapers regionally.
I'm not anti-wolf. I think the "Save Our Elk" people blow things way way out of proportion. I do not believe that wolves are very dangerous in most situations. I am way more worried about moose and bears when i am riding, as others on this thread have pointed out. But I'm not sunshine-and-roses about wolves either, and I think it is irresponsible to withhold anything from the OP. She asked for advice, I'm giving it. You don't have to agree with it.

Painted Horse
Nov. 11, 2009, 10:16 PM
I ride near moose a lot and have never had a problem with them. If I get too close they just trot off. I've never been threatened by a mosoe while I was on a horse. (Now I have been tree'd by a moose while hiking) but they always retreat when I'm on a horse.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/Wildlife/Moose.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/MooseJackson.jpg

As far as the Save the Elk people. The elk population in and around Yellowstone has drastically been reduced. Something, Grizzly or Wolf has reduced the number of elk. When there are lots of Prey animals. The predators will thrive. When the prey animal population declines, The predators starve or migrate out of the area. Who knows what the right balance is.

cloudy18
Nov. 12, 2009, 11:47 AM
I think that is how it is supposed to work. Populations of animals are supposed to rise and fall. It's all about carrying capacity. If the prey has declined, the predators will decline next, and then the prey SHOULD be able to bounce back, although humans tend to make a cluster of things when they try to manage it.

People around here panic bc deer have declined and blame the wolves. But really, the population of deer is still up there, everyone just got used to years of them being everywhere. Now they actually have to hunt and aren't guaranteed a deer and they panic and generate anti-wolf hysteria.

And yes, wolves will kill dogs, although they are also capable of leaving them alone. Bears kill dogs too.

tkhawk
Nov. 12, 2009, 12:32 PM
I am not very predator friendly. I guess that is because I grew up in India, where we loose at least 100 people a year to leopards and tigers. Leopards are the worst offenders. They are stealthy and have been known to sneak into a hut and carry one victim off without waking the other members of the family.

Now I live in CA where we can't hunt mountain lions. You can hunt anything else , but not a mountain lion. So we have a ton of them. But they rarely attack horses and even rarer is an attack on humans. But it does occur. Anyways I have a healthy respect for predators. Wolves-I really don't know much, but don't like the odds of a pack of animals that can take down a full grown bison or an elk. But I guess they do know to leave a horse and rider alone-wild animals do figure it out. But unlike mountain lions, there appear to be no known attacks on humans at least in the U.S. in the recent past?

altjaeger
Nov. 12, 2009, 02:13 PM
I could see wolves approaching you, your horse bucking or rearing you off, in panic, and galloping off with the wolves in pursuit. I think in that situation they'd leave you alone even though you would be MUCH easier prey. I think, though, they'd go after the familiar 4-legged beast.

If you get a pistol, get a .22 LR rimfire. This won't destroy your hearing, and any wolf shot with one isn't going to press home an attack. As others have said, the noise alone would probably scare a wolf away.

SmokenMirrors
Nov. 12, 2009, 02:58 PM
I think the ignorance over the true predatory nature of the wolf, how they hunt, what they think, what a true pack does is seriously lacking in those who's only aim is to see every wolf dead.

Wolves by nature are solitary animals, they don't want to run into humans, they don't hunt little babies or small animals and they aren't the cold blooded killers that many want others to think. Yes, if a wolf is older, sick, or hurt in some way and cannot keep up with the pack, they will take down a newborn calf or anything else that is easy prey to survive. They aren't being malicious, they aren't doing it ruthlessly.

Others have to see that we humans are encroaching on the home of wild life. Building buildings, tearing down trees and moving on in, so where do you want the deer, wolves, mountain lions and anything else to go? Will we not be satisfied and try to educate ourselves to coexist with the wildlife, or scream murder and gloss over the truth till all the wild life is gone or in a zoo?

I don't think that a wolf would go after a horse and rider normally. Put a bell on your horse, wear bright colors, sing, go with someone else and make some noise, I bet they will slip into the shadows and stay far away from you.

cloudyandcallie
Nov. 12, 2009, 03:10 PM
If there is not much game in an area, wolves have smaller litters or do not mate at all..............something that was studied by both David Mech and Farley Mowat.

Yes they can kill. But if there are plentiful mice and rabbits, they will eat them, easy pickings. Farley Mowat ate the same diet:eek: in his study of wolves in Alaska, and marked his territory the same way.:lol: David Mech studied the Isle Royale wolves. You can buy their books on amazon.com and read what those 2 guys learned in coexisting with the wolves. Very funny and very informative books. They dispel a lot of myths.

Kyzteke
Nov. 12, 2009, 03:24 PM
I am not very predator friendly. I guess that is because I grew up in India, where we loose at least 100 people a year to leopards and tigers.

Oh please! First of all, not to sound cruel, but India has ALOT of people...100 or so is not threatening the population of India.

Second, India loses far more people to snake bites and starvation every year than it has ever done to leopards & tigers. For that matter, they lose even more to disease caused by rodent infestation of rice than any predator you can think of. So let's look at this with a clearer, non-hysterical eye, please.

Meanwhile, tigers are highly endangered....Indians are not.

Ditto for Californians. Sorry, but PEOPLE are part of Nature too...it drives me crazy when we think ALL people need to be protected at the expense of every other creature out there. We have plenty of people...as far as I'm concerned, the world could afford to spare a few.:rolleyes:

Yes, wolves can kill a dog -- if you read the article by the researchers who hunted & collared over 150 mountain lions, using hounds in Yellowstone Park, a place that has the highest density of wolves in the lower 48, they did not have ONE wolf/dog altercation in over 4 years. NOT ONE! That's because they didn't walk in there acting like they owned the place -- they managed their hounds carefully, respected the fact that it was the wolves home as well, and paid close attention to "wolf signs"....none of which the guy in Grangesville did.

No, instead, this guy (for "fun") uses his dear, sweet pooches that he LOFFS SO MUCH :mad: to hunt bear & cat (which I'm assuming he kills when they are in season, and I'm assuming sometimes the hounds get the worst of it), endangering their life on a regular basis. Not HIS life, THEIRS...his dear, precious puppie. PLUEEZE.....

And then, when a predator finally turns the tables, they are cruel and horrid. Hey, he walked into THEIR world, they didn't come into his living room or even up to his porch and attack him.

Yes, I feel sorry for him. I've held dogs in my arms while they died...my good dog Loki valiantly lifted himself with his last breath up to lick the tears from my face as he died...after being run over by a car! It was horrible and the memory still haunts me, even though it was over 20 years ago.

But the fact is that bad things happen sometimes and you are not going to prevent them all. Cars kill FAR more dogs than wolves ever will, and I don't see anyone screaming we should ban them.:no:

If you go into bear country you see signs every where warning you to keep your pet on a leash or keep it close. Again, more PEOPLE are killed by deer every year than wolves have killed IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY.

As far as them decimating the deer/elk population, according to a recent report from the Idaho Fish & Game, there are still plentiful elk in the state -- actually more than last year -- in all areas but two.

So is your dog in danger if you are letting it run loose far from you in wolf and/or bear and/or cat country? Yes.

Is there a good chance if you are riding along with your dog right beside you a pack of wolves will leap out and eat it...not much of one....and it even less likely the wolves will attack you.

And the world is supposed to be for all the creatures...if you go into "their" world, be polite and follow the rules or else stay home in your recliner.

Heaven knows there is little of "their" world left, do we as a species have to gobble it ALL up?

tkhawk
Nov. 12, 2009, 04:12 PM
Yes more people die from other causes than from leopards and yes India does have a billion people. But when the person who just died is your brother or cousin-that changes everything. Statistics will not provide comfort.

I love wildlife. But I think most people in the west are so far removed from the natural cycle or if they live in a pristine area , they have so much stuff to protect them-from guns to be able to call 911 or houses that can keep anything out, that really is not the wild.

In India, almost nobody owns guns. There is no 911 system at all. So those that live close or in wilderness areas are pretty much on their own. In one area, tigers regularly take out humans. But the humans are too poor and have to still go into the forest to make a living. Leopards are supremely adaptable and can live in suburbia as long as there is cover to hide in the day. A thatched one room hut that may house a family of 6-10 is no protection against a marauding leopard at night when everyone is at sleep.

I remember reading about the account of a British couple that went to a safari in Kenya. A lioness had taken down a cow and so the masai had sought it out and killed it and its companion. These tourists were horrified and went and took photos and were going to expose the "savages" to the world. Well I am like how stupid can you be be? These people have coexisted with the lions and hyenas for centuries if not millenia. The lions and hyenas know not to look at cows and goats as prey-if they do death swiftly follows. It works with the occasional loss of prey. It is the same in India , people have coexisted with lions, tigers, leopards, elepahants, cheetahs(before they became extinct there) , rhinos , crocodiles et all for centuries. People have been dying by them for long too.

It does not mean you wan't to exterminate them. It just means you be real careful and when you live/have lived in less proteced places, you realize how powerful they can be. You realize that in an instant,you can be prey too. You don't have a gun, no 911, you just have to make sure that the predator understands that you and/or your livestock are off limits. People have lived together with predators for a long time-just need to know their power and not take them lightly.

Now with wolves, I don't have an idea. But if I am going to ride in wolf country by myself, well I would like to find out more and take precautions. It is great to have wildlife, but not that much fun when you realize you too are part of the cycle and could be prey if the situation changes. Trying to attack predators is really not that unique to humans. Look at birds of a flock that mob a hawk or a troop of baboons that may look at a leopard that is not hunting and still mob it and chase it away or cape buffalo that will kill lion cubs if they see them. I wonder if it is just part of a natural instinct that we still have left.

cloudy18
Nov. 12, 2009, 09:21 PM
I think the hatred/fear of wolves goes beyond natural instinct for many people. I think many hunters are greedy and think there should be no competition from the natural world for their game. Many are also very ignorant about wolves and base their anti-wolf arguments on old myths.

What kills me is when I read an article in the local paper about how Joe Smith's hunting dog was killed by a wolf (or a bear) and they have to point out that the dog was worth $5,000. It's ALWAYS worth $5,000, yet I see how many of those poor dogs are treated by their owners on a daily basis. Not like $5,000 animals.

Ok, back on track. I actually fear bees more, bc those damn things come out of nowhere and don't stop, attack horses and humans alike, and can nail everyone in a large group, plus cause bad accidents.

We just had a confirmed wolf kill south of here, a calf. Farmer was compensated, I'm sure the hysteria can rise a little more, and with deer hunting coming up the wolves better stay out of sight. Sad.

Falconfree
Nov. 19, 2009, 01:51 PM
I've never seen a wolf on the trail, but we've run into foxes a handful of times (there are two dens that we know of on my grandmother's acreage) and they have always run away/hid. Once we were at my aunts' mountain house looked outside and saw a big bear wandering around the back yard. My grandmother's little spaniel was actually following it around (dumbest dog in the world. very sweet, but she had NO sense of self-preservation), and it just ignored her. It left after having a good sniff, and never even gave the dog a second look. Not that I would have gambled with going outside with the bear there, nor did we ever leave the dog outside alone again there.

On the other hand, I used to volunteer at the local zoo/museum. They have a very sweet buck that adores people, and most of the time volunteers can go right into his cage to feed him/love on him. When he is rutting though, we would have to distract him at one end of his enclosure then quickly change out his food and water at the other end before he noticed the door open. Though he is probably worse than normal when it comes to that, because he is not shy of humans at all.