Help bringing the head up

[AmandaandTuff]

I have a horse I am riding that puts his head down and in. Breed standard wants his head up and in, almost like a saddlebred. I really prefer down and on the bit like an arabian, but the owner wants breed standard for the breed shows.

This is a much heavier horse (gypsy) and he can be heavy on the forehand if I try to get his head up. Do I need a bit change? We longe in side reins to encourage the head to be held higher while in.

Do I need to tell owner he's build to have the look he has and not try to make him a 'saddlebred'?

I don't have a great photo of what I'm talking about. This is him on the longe line sans side reins. I like how he's long and low, with reins he brings his head in nice to keep contact. I edited out the longe line.

I have the say to what he does as a discipline training wise. I'd like to do lower level eventing and hunter shows. We'll also be doing cattle work. I'm wondering if I should just tell owner leave his head be since he searches for the contact.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/astro-1.jpg

[mrsbradbury]

I think he is in a nice natural frame. I wouldn't be concerned about his "head" right now, but rather his natural carriage. He needs to be forward and light, allow his head to go where it wants to naturally.

It sounds like your training plans are all over the map right now. Focus on a good riding horse and have fun.

[Dixon]

Yes, absolutely change the bit -- that will solve the problem. A really long-shanked gag will put the headset right where you want it, and the owner can ride him with really heavy hands when she wants the horse's head higher like a standardbred. Use the same bit for all of your disciplines that you'll be training -- from the cross-country and dressage of eventing to your cattle work. Just neck rein when you're in the western saddle -- otherwse your horse might get confused. Be sure to add a really tight tie-down, too, and leave it on for all disciplines because it helps the horse jump round and carry it's head in a dressagey headset. Also, if you want to fit in in the eventing world, particularly in the dressage ring, you should dye the horse solid brown. Or skip the baths. For your cattle work, be sure to leave the long feathers on the horse. The feathers will protect his fetlocks when you do your sliding stops so you won't even need protective boots.

[AmandaandTuff]

Yes, absolutely change the bit -- that will solve the problem. A really long-shanked gag will put the headset right where you want it, and the owner can ride him with really heavy hands when she wants the horse's head higher like a standardbred. Use the same bit for all of your disciplines that you'll be training -- from the cross-country and dressage of eventing to your cattle work. Just neck rein when you're in the western saddle -- otherwse your horse might get confused. Be sure to add a really tight tie-down, too, and leave it on for all disciplines because it helps the horse jump round and carry it's head in a dressagey headset. Also, if you want to fit in in the eventing world, particularly in the dressage ring, you should dye the horse solid brown. Or skip the baths. For your cattle work, be sure to leave the long feathers on the horse. The feathers will protect his fetlocks when you do your sliding stops so you won't even need protective boots.

Really rude. I'm struggling with what I know and what the owner wants to happen. I'm riding in a loose ring with a rubber mouth with him long, low, and I'm really pushing from behind. The comment really seems inappropriate.

[AmandaandTuff]

Here is what is going on so far, ignore the rider.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119878987006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879047006_709387006_2884-3.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879052006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879057006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879097006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879157006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879177006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

[SaturdayNightLive]

I'm sorry, but you call yourself a trainer?

[Wizard of Oz's]

This horse obviously isn't build like a "saddlebred" and even if you could somehow make him hold his head like one, it probably wouldn't do him any good. I would have a talk with your trainer about how to best work with the horse you have and not making him into something he isn't. Also, if you're planning on making him into a hunter, that super high headset isn't going to work in your favor. I think he has a pretty good natural headset for a hunter, but he does look heavy on the forehand. I think you should work on self-carriage so he knows that he can't just lean on your hands all the time. He's such a cutie! :)

[spmoonie]

I'm sorry, but you call yourself a trainer?

Anyone can call themselves that. ;)

To the OP: Im not sure this horse is physically capable of doing what you want him to. He is a Gypsy, not a saddlebred. I think you pretty much answered your own question.

[enjoytheride]

This horse has a thick neck and head, he will never get his head up like a saddlebred. My suggestion is to quit messing with his head and just ride him forward, I'd also suggest taking lessons. You pay for them even if you're riding someone else's horse.

Are you sure that is the breed standard? I've never seen a gypsy horse go like that. That is a very odd collection of things you want him to do as well, any reason?

[AmandaandTuff]

I'm not the one that wants his head up and in. Apparently it's what was seen at the 'fall feather classic'. I'm the rider, not the trainer. I really wish I had a proper fitting saddle, he isn't going to move out properly and use himself until owner buys a saddle. I don't think this horse ever could carry his head in such a manner without some serious issues.

[enjoytheride]

Then this is the part where you learn about making some adult decisions. If you believe the riding you are asked to do is wrong tell the owner then be prepared to lose that ride. This horse is not built to go in that manner and will never go in that manner and part of learning about being a rider is doing what is best for the horse.

[Tiffani B]

Then this is the part where you learn about making some adult decisions. If you believe the riding you are asked to do is wrong tell the owner then be prepared to loose that ride. This horse is not built to go in that manner and will never go in that manner and part of learning about being a rider is doing what is best for the horse.

Ditto.

[Dixon]

The post and the photo are too troll-like to take seriously. Just recently a different poster asked how to encourage a western-trained horse that goes behind the bit to instead reach for contact, and would a bit change help. AmandaandTuff's post was an entertainingly well-written spoof of that. This is a hunter-jumper forum, and we were asked to opine about teaching a paint feathered gypsy horse wearing a western saddle and intending to work cattle how to carry its head more like a saddlebred or not. I enjoyed the post, and found it very clever.

[enjoytheride]

Not a spoof, the OP is a young adult and has asked several questions on this BB before and has ridden this horse before. She has had some issues with her own horse jumping. I think she has lots of potential but needs to find a good barn with a trainer who will help teach her good habits, I understand money is an object and being young entitles you to a sense of fearlessness but lessons and a good barn will benefit her and her horse.

[AmandaandTuff]

Nothing troll like going on here. I cannot ride this horse in an english style saddle because we don't have one for him. I'm taking lessons on some nice horses at a barn about twice a month.

This is a horse I am riding for exhibition purposes, as well as an APHA stallion.

I was asking because this owner isn't necesarily the brightest when it comes to build and function. Showing her this thread helped her realize that this horse simply cannot physically do what she wants him to do.

Versatility in a stallion is also not a horrible issue either. He's not going to be a Grand Prix jumper or winning any A hunter shows.

[nlk]

I would also suggest to the owner to focus on ONE thing at a time. Often people try to do every discipline at once and instead you get a confused horse and spend a lot of time arguing. I don't see a reason you can't do all of this at a local level. There is no reason a horse can't do cows/ranch work, lower level dressage, jumping and even WP if they are brought along slowly and you build on what you have already done, the basics are all the same....still one thing at a time for both your piece of minds.....

[Surly Sue]

No troll comments here- just a remark as to what a cute horse! Lately I've been seeing "gypsy" horses advertised and this is new to me. What are these horses? Some new trend or have I been out of the loop?

I think that this horse looks like a blast - personable, calm - and that you are doing a great job. You can't make a horse into something is isn't designed to be, but it looks to me that you are doing a wonderful job making this horse happy and forward.

Kudos for trying and for caring enough to ask for advice! Anyone who wants to learn and cares about horses is on the right track!:)

[Paragon]

My opinion as a not-trainer? You don't fix a face. You ride a body.

The horse looks lovely and willing. Leave him be and don't yack him up because someone wants his head in a certain place.

[Alterrain]

The post and the photo are too troll-like to take seriously. Just recently a different poster asked how to encourage a western-trained horse that goes behind the bit to instead reach for contact, and would a bit change help. AmandaandTuff's post was an entertainingly well-written spoof of that. This is a hunter-jumper forum, and we were asked to opine about teaching a paint feathered gypsy horse wearing a western saddle and intending to work cattle how to carry its head more like a saddlebred or not. I enjoyed the post, and found it very clever.

Dixon, I thought the same thing. ha ha, well written spoof. And then I spit lemonade all over my keyboard reading your reply. But I actually think she is serious.

[moonriverfarm]

I agree the choice of places to post her concerns may be incorrect, but hey, don't boil her in your witches pot! At least she asks for help! And I think the horse is adorable.

[witherbee]

What a cutie he is! It's unfortunate about the tack and the confusing mish-mash of what the owner wants to do. I think it's great to be versatile, but it can be confusing if the horse is green and so is the owner and the rider. He certainly looks willing enough, but I'd love to see him an da french link snaffle (with a caveson on the bridle!), and an english saddle that fits.

Sounds like she is looking to have more of a dressage frame, and that's unfortunate without the training behind it. While I don't think that everyone has to be at the top level of their chosen discipline(s), I do have higher expectations of anyone who is campaigning a stallion that they intend to breed. Sounds to me like this owner is taking some shortcuts with this horse. He looks like a sweetie, but is heavy on the forehand and looks truly unfortunate in that tack (to my snobby hunter princess self lol). On the other hand, he's certainly not starving and he doesn't look abused (far from it - he looks like he's a sweetheart and everyone around him knows it), so my snob-o-meter is on the fritz. I see too many truly bad starvation cases andabuse cases around here to get my panties in a twist over a gypsy vanner that is not meeting his ttue potential (whatever that may be). Also, it would be the pot calling the kettle black as I watch my overweight Irish Draught amble around his field!

Good luck, and just enjoy riding him. I wouldn't worry about his frame other than to keep him forward and not leaning on your hands.

[AmandaandTuff]

Saddle buying is in process, I hunted down a dressage saddle with a draft tree. Now to get owner to take it on trial.

I'm going to be bringing my french link D with curved mouth (http://www.valleyvet.com/group_images/36653_A.jpg) to start riding him in. She really needs to buy her own so I can leave mine at home for my own horses.

I just want the horse to ride forward into the bit from behind. I'm working on talking the owner into getting an instructor for dressage to come out and lesson with us.

[EKLay]

Cute horse! :)

While I do not own any myself, I love a well conformed Gypsy Vanner and plan on owning one in the future. In all the research I've done and keeping in mind the few that I've been privileged to see in person, I have never even heard of anyone saying they should carry their necks like a Saddlebred. Knowing what their purpose was/is in England and how our American registries have worded their breed standards makes it seem quite odd to me that someone would think that a GV carrying themselves like a Saddlebred would be *required* by a registry, let alone viewed as something to encourage...

[Eventer13]

The head and neck carriage comes from adjusting the horse's balance. If the owner wants a higher neck and head carriage, with the horse's nose more inward, he's going to have to shift his weight backward and lift his shoulders (in other words, collect himself). However, at this point in his training, if you start asking for that kind of collection, you are going to get resistance and start pulling his head up and in, thus dropping his back and losing the hindquarters. The owner does not seem particularily educated in how to ride a horse back-to-front (no offense, she may not have ever learned). She should not be worried about a head set, but rather training the horse to have good basics, which includes learning to stretch across the topline rather than to contract it.

Go buy her a good dressage book.

[AmandaandTuff]

Owner only did in hand showing, a good book may be a great christmas gift! I usually just nod my head and go about my own riding. By March I just want a soft, forward horse at three gaits.

[fudisky]

I accept with information: This horse obviously isn't build like a "saddlebred" and even if you could somehow make him hold his head like one, it probably wouldn't do him any good and if you're planning on making him into a hunter, that super high headset isn't going to work in your favor.

[twobays]

The post and the photo are too troll-like to take seriously. Just recently a different poster asked how to encourage a western-trained horse that goes behind the bit to instead reach for contact, and would a bit change help. AmandaandTuff's post was an entertainingly well-written spoof of that. This is a hunter-jumper forum, and we were asked to opine about teaching a paint feathered gypsy horse wearing a western saddle and intending to work cattle how to carry its head more like a saddlebred or not. I enjoyed the post, and found it very clever.

Yeah, its a real shame that this post is crowding out the million threads on ammy status and what brands of breeches are socially acceptable. :rolleyes:

[AmandaandTuff]

Oh that's right! Will my black TuffRider jacket and beige Sigma breeches be socially acceptable to ride a paint horse under a hunt saddle? But I do have a CO JR8 :lol: Let's not get into the shirt, I made it myself.

Or would it be more acceptable to ride around the hunter ring in costume? Decisions decisions :rolleyes::sigh:

[goeslikestink]

Here is what is going on so far, ignore the rider.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119878987006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879047006_709387006_2884-3.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879052006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879057006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879097006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879157006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/DontBelieveInMe/5280_119879177006_709387006_2884-1.jpg

to be honest hes better of having his head where it is - hes working forwards
read the links of how bad hands effect the hroses way of going on my helpful links pages
at the moement the horse is willing and kind he is not a saddlebred type and shouldnt have his head up as your freind is thinking hes a common cob type useful type as they can and do many various displines he seems a nice guy so keep him nice
look here at helpful links pages and read all of page one and all links
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

and by the way if ones buying a saddle for that typpe of horse your better to get one fitted by a mastercraftmen a proper saddler or shopt hat sells tack often they have fitters and second hand saddles available as not one saddle fits two horses or various horses as they should be fitted to the hrose and then to the rider also remeber its english tack or western not both on together